half pass

[europa]

can someone give a good sequence of training events for half pass

[slc2]

Circles, starting with 20 meter circles, then 15, 12, 10 m circles, bending, suppling and going forward. Leg yields(without taking the rider's leg back or twisting the body), then position fore, shoulder fore, shoulder in, then turn on the haunches, then haunches in, then half pass.

[europa]

How do you actually start asking for the half pass?

[slc2]

If you have not ridden half pass on a trained horse, don't know what the aids are, or how to train it, it can be hard to get good results without a trainer or instructor guiding you there as you are trying to do it.

If I have trained the circles, leg yield and turn on the haunches, the horse understands everything he needs to half pass.

He after the preparation training with circles, shoulder in, etc, understands that the outside rein controls his shoulders, the inside rein bends him, the inside leg at the girth tells him to move energetically and tells him to bend in his body. The outside leg behind the girth tells him to move his hind quarters away from the outside leg. The aids for the half pass are the same as for any circle, and the same idea as for shoulder in, haunches in and turn on the haunches. The aids for all these things are the same.

I start by asking by doing a circle in the first corner of the short side. I come out of the circle and take a shoulder in position down the quarter line (you always take a shoulder in position to commence a half pass, including in competition), then I start half passing and half pass to the wall or track. If the horse has a lot of trouble with that there is a very 'baby' way to start half pass of doing leg yield toward the track from the quarter line, changing the bend and continuing to the track in half pass. The rider has to change the bend, start using the wall-side leg at the girth, and the leg that is in toward the middle of the ring, behind the girth.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

You can think of it as a haunches-in across the diagonal (or whatever line you pick).

[Phyxius]

A half pass is basically a haunches in on a diagonal line.

If you have mirrors they can be very helpful to check your horse's angle/position. I tend to bring the haunches too much and get yelled at. ;)

[Pony Fixer]

As the 2 previous posters said, the easiest way to think of it is HI on a diagonal. You can start a HI on the rail or quarterline, then pick a diagonal line and keep the shoulders on that (imaginary) line while keeping the same angle in the HI. Your aids do not change from HI, remember to keep your weight in the direction of travel (my personal waterloo). In the beginning, you are likely to sputter when you move from HI to HP, so remember to keep on the gas and to maintain your engagement. Haunches leading is a big no-no, so concentrate hard on your (imaginary) line and keeping your original HI angle the same!

Good luck!

[BaroquePony]

If you can do the shoulder-in correctly then you can do the half-pass.

All of the aids are basically the same, but you switch from using the inside leg on the girth as your predominant aid for the shoulder-in to using your outside leg behind the girth as the predominant aid for the half-pass.

You can do a zig zag down the centerline using shoulder-in and switch to half-pass and back again.

[merrygoround]

Before you do half pass, you need to be quite strong in the haunches in.

Once you have that down pat, try riding haunches in across the diagonal. Then later, you can try it from shoulder-fore. Doing this is more difficult, and takes more strength and engagement. Doing it H/I across the diagonal, has the "look", but not the "oomph". :)

[Gucci Cowgirl]

, but you switch from using the inside leg on the girth as your predominant aid for the shoulder-in to using your outside leg behind the girth as the predominant aid for the half-pass.




those 2 things are most definately not what I have been taught, from anyone, anytime.

inside leg at the girth is not the predominant aid for shoulder in, it is the outside rein that brings the shoulders in, the inside leg just keeps bend and energy. To ride a shoulder in predominantly off the inside leg creates a leg yield.

outside leg behid the girth is again, not the predominant aid for the half pass. not by a long shot! The outside leg is only used to keep the haunches bent to the inside, so that they remain directly behind the horse, not to either side. The half pass is just a shoulder in on a diagonal, not a haunches in on a diagonal.

the hindlegs must be straight behind the horse in the shoulder in on a straight line, as well as on a diagonal line, the only difference is that the shoulders are moving forward and diagonally, not just forward on three tracks.

Do you use your outside leg predominantly as an aid in the canter pirouette too? because all a CP is, is a shoulder in, in a tiny circle. Who trained you this way? I am interested

[BaroquePony]

Gucci,

I said predominant aid, I did not say to ignore all of the other aids. That description comes from two differerent "I" judges.

I said "if" you can do a CORRECT shoulder-in you can do a half-pass.

I did see in one of your older posts where you described developing the shoulder-in by bringing both hands across the withers to bring the shoulders off of the track ... THAT is not a correct shoulder-in.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

I never said across the withers, I would love for you to show me where you think you saw those words??

I said bring both hands TOWARDSthe inside. like turning. BOTH hands in the direction of the turn. Never across, with either hand, in either direction. Every BNT I have trained with, plus "O" judge, all say the same thing. both hands towards go in the direction of the turn, or wherever you want the shoulders.

most people use only their inside rein, and crank it across the wither to the outside. That is the opposite of correct.

[purplnurpl]

Oh boy oh boy.

I disagree with most said.
And no matter what anyone comes back with I will stick to my guns. Therefore I won't check back on the thread because ya'll will just make me cry. I’m sure.

The reason 1/2 pass is hard to teach (new horse and rider to the movement) is because you are asking the horse to move INTO your weight, probably for the first time. This is the first move that you cannot get away with. Can’t fake your body weight. If you can't sit on the inside you ain't goin no where.

It is not a pushing movement at all (via outside leg).

And I personally can't think of it as a HI on the diagonal because that would make me think, lead with the haunch. And you should lead from the shoulder.

So when you finish your 10m 1/2 circle, come out of it and keep shoulder fore or SI. Then ask for the diagonal step.

Shoot, first just ask for your horse to trot on the 1/4 mark in the banana shape. That is hard enough for some of them!!

1/2 pass can be the easiest to ride, but the hardest to train. : ) If it were easy to train everyone would be a coach and then the good guys wouldn't make money. lol.

Once the horse knows what to do you simply lift the inside rein a little and then use the inside leg and seat to move toward the inside (inside being from 1/4 line to rail according to bend)

Figure, if you are pushing your horse over from 1/4 mark to rail then how do you plan on getting from 1/2 mark to rail? How hard can you push? Not hard enough and you shouldn't HAVE to push that hard!!

Inside leg and outside rein my dear. Outside leg helps hold the haunch steady.

That is what I was taught and I believe in it.

I ready my own body with renvers. It helps me work on putting my weight on the inside of the horse’s body.
I do use HI to ready my horse. But I do not initiate the move from HI. I just do the HI, SI, Renvers sequence on the long side. Back to HI, 10m 1/2 circle, banana shape and then go for it. : )

It's hard keeping your parts, and your horse’s parts where they should be.

[slc2]

Can't agree with you on one thing, purple. I don't put weight on one side of the horse to do half pass. If you do, you get a falling to the wall. I look where I want to go, and that does everything that needs to be done with your body. if you consciously try to weight the inside and sit to the inside, you'll get over there, but it will be by falling to the wall, not by half passing.

Too, half pass starts from shoulder in position, not renvers position.

I do agree about haunches in on the diagonal, which is a very different thing from a half pass, and is a very different angle and very, very different (and much easier) mechanics that avoid the difficulty of half pass, and half pass should never be initiated by moving the haunches in or by doing haunches in. But don't try to suggest that here, you'll get a bunch of outraged women breathing down your neck telling you haunches in on a diagonal is the same as half pass and that's all there is to it.

Unfortunately, it isn't and it's a bad way to teach a horse half pass, and you'll have to go back and fix it, you will lose points in competition if you don't, plus it's a very nasty habit to try and fix.

I don't understand how the inside leg could be the 'predominant' aid for shoulder in, or how the outside leg could be the 'predominant' aid for half pass.

At least while he's first learning it, the aid the rider is probably the most consciously aware of needing to use is the outside rein for shoulder in in the sense that he will be using all his usual turning aids, just as for a circle, but he will be aware that he needs more outside rein to control the shoulders than if he were doing a circle.

The half pass is not predominantly aided with the outside leg, though like all turning and circling, the outside leg has something to do with it. As in all other work the outside leg controls the haunches.

But if the rider feels like he has to 'predominate' by using his outside leg, something is going wrong with the half pass.

If the haunches are trailing in the half pass, the 'answer' isn't to push harder with the outside leg and try to 'speed up' the haunches, but to slow down the shoulders with the outside rein.

Otherwise then the half pass just winds up being a 'falling over and running to the wall', not a half pass.

If the rider feels he needs to emphasize his outside leg for half pass alot or that his outside leg aid predominates routinely, or if he feels he needs to emphasize his inside leg for shoulder in or the inside leg predominates routinely, something's not right.

Both of these exercises should give the rider the feeling that he completely 'wraps around' the horse with his aids like wrapping paper around a package - all his aids, evenly, inside aids, outside aids, define the horse's position without one aid predominating. If that's not happening there's a problem.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

Oh boy oh boy.

I disagree with most said.
And no matter what anyone comes back with I will stick to my guns. Therefore I won't check back on the thread because ya'll will just make me cry. I’m sure.

The reason 1/2 pass is hard to teach (new horse and rider to the movement) is because you are asking the horse to move INTO your weight, probably for the first time. This is the first move that you cannot get away with. Can’t fake your body weight. If you can't sit on the inside you ain't goin no where.

It is not a pushing movement at all (via outside leg).

And I personally can't think of it as a HI on the diagonal because that would make me think, lead with the haunch. And you should lead from the shoulder.

So when you finish your 10m 1/2 circle, come out of it and keep shoulder fore or SI. Then ask for the diagonal step.

Shoot, first just ask for your horse to trot on the 1/4 mark in the banana shape. That is hard enough for some of them!!

1/2 pass can be the easiest to ride, but the hardest to train. : ) If it were easy to train everyone would be a coach and then the good guys wouldn't make money. lol.

Once the horse knows what to do you simply lift the inside rein a little and then use the inside leg and seat to move toward the inside (inside being from 1/4 line to rail according to bend)

Figure, if you are pushing your horse over from 1/4 mark to rail then how do you plan on getting from 1/2 mark to rail? How hard can you push? Not hard enough and you shouldn't HAVE to push that hard!!

Inside leg and outside rein my dear. Outside leg helps hold the haunch steady.

That is what I was taught and I believe in it.

I ready my own body with renvers. It helps me work on putting my weight on the inside of the horse’s body.
I do use HI to ready my horse. But I do not initiate the move from HI. I just do the HI, SI, Renvers sequence on the long side. Back to HI, 10m 1/2 circle, banana shape and then go for it. : )

It's hard keeping your parts, and your horse’s parts where they should be.

I think you and I are 100% on the same page.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:

The half pass is just a shoulder in on a diagonal, not a haunches in on a diagonal.

A shoulder-in on the diagonal IS a shoulder-in on the diagonal, not a half-pass on a diagonal. That would be called a half-pass on a diagonal.

The shoulder-in is an exercise where the inside leg on the girth develops the bend and asks the horse to move forward at the same time into the outside rein, but in order for it to be a shoulder in rather than a leg yield the outside leg behind the girth must become active in asking the haunches to bend the other way (away from the outside leg of the rider and in the opposite direction of the bend of the horse's ribcage, ie: an evenly bent body of horse). The shoulder-in MOVES INTO the direction OF the bend, whether its down the long side of the wall with the head of the horse to the wall, OR down the long side of the wall with the horse's haunches to the wall or down the diagonal.

In the haunches-in the horse MOVES into the direction FROM WHICH he is bent. The haunches-in can be done with the haunches coming in off of the track and the head along the wall, OR it can be done with the haunces on the wall and the head to the inside, OR it can be done on the diagonal, down the centerline or out in the back forty acres. It is a movment where the horse moves in the direction that he is bent away from. Period.

Edited: Yes, I could have said part of that more clearly. In the shoulder-in the horse moves in the direction that he is bent away from. In the haunches-in horse moves in the direction that he is bent in.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by purplnurpl:

Not hard enough and you shouldn't HAVE to push that hard

Where does this "pushing" term come from :confused:

There is NO pushing involved in any of these aids.

ALL of these aids should essentially be the same. The rider should have taught his horse to move away from the pressure of the leg. This is not a "stuck" leg on horse kind of thing. This is supposed to be a breathing leg that is always actively engaging each hind leg as it leaves the ground. An extra nudge in rythym is what I am describing.

[slc2]

i feel half pass is not a shoulder in on the diagonal or a haunches in on the diagonal.

i don't agree with either of the statements saying half pass is either of those things.

There is nothing at all DIAGONAL about a half pass. The horse's body is virtually parallel to the wall when he does a half pass. He starts it from a shoulder in, not a haunches in position. The shoulder in is to initiate the correct posture, that doesn't mean the half pass is a shoulder in on a different line.

This is where everyone is getting lost.

The horse's body is virtually PARALLEL to the wall in half pass. It isn't anywhere NEAR on a diagonal. That would be completely wrong. It would be wrong to teach it that way, start it that way, initiate it that way, school it that way.

Haunches in whether done on the track or diagonal - only gets him to bend his haunches very, very slightly in the way required for half pass - it is a preparatory exercise, like a leg yield, it is not a half pass. The level of difficulty is very, very different. To get a half pass you have to rotate the horse's body off that diagonal line, but even if you did, you can't initiate a half pass with a haunches in position - because it's incorrect.

The half pass is SO easy to teach and do if you just do it correctly - why make it so complicated, and so muddled, and so incorrect?

Haunches in on a diagonal is an exercise that someone might try at some point in one's training, but it is not half pass and the position is nothing like a half pass. it's far, far easier.

The horse is not on a diagonal, that is wrong.

Pushing a horse's haunches in from a diagonal line is not a half pass.

It is a far easier movement, and all it is in relation to a half pass is incorrect.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

i feel half pass is not a shoulder in on the diagonal or a haunches in on the diagonal.


There is nothing at all DIAGONAL about a half pass. The horse's body is virtually PARALLEL to the wall in half pass. It isn't anywhere NEAR on a diagonal. That would be completely wrong. It would be wrong to teach it that way, start it that way, initiate it that way, school it that way.


The horse is not on a diagonal, that is wrong.

Pushing a horse's haunches in from a diagonal line is not a half pass.




Half passes travel on a diagonal line. Nobody is saying the half pass puts the body on a diagonal bend. THE LINE OF TRAVEL is a diagonal one. It is not straight forward, backwords, or sideways. The horses' entire body is parallell to the wall, ben in the direction of travel, and travelling on a diagonal LINE across the arena. How do you ride that your half passes travel on a straight forward line? :confused:


You misunderstood everyone's posts. We all know the body is parallel to the wall, we are saying the line of travel is diagonal.

[slc2]

i didn't misunderstand anything. you're talking about doing a haunches in on a diagonal is a half pass and telling people who ask how to do half pass, do a haunches in on the diagonal, and it isn't.

i didn't misunderstand you, i disagreed with you. i'm saying the reason hp is not same as hi on diagonal is because of the body position.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

I specifically said half pass was NOT haunches in on a diagonal.

4 other posters said haunches-in on a diagonal...not me.

please don't put words into my mouth

[JRG]

Oh boy oh boy.

I disagree with most said.
And no matter what anyone comes back with I will stick to my guns. Therefore I won't check back on the thread because ya'll will just make me cry. I’m sure.

The reason 1/2 pass is hard to teach (new horse and rider to the movement) is because you are asking the horse to move INTO your weight, probably for the first time. This is the first move that you cannot get away with. Can’t fake your body weight. If you can't sit on the inside you ain't goin no where.

It is not a pushing movement at all (via outside leg).

And I personally can't think of it as a HI on the diagonal because that would make me think, lead with the haunch. And you should lead from the shoulder.

So when you finish your 10m 1/2 circle, come out of it and keep shoulder fore or SI. Then ask for the diagonal step.

Shoot, first just ask for your horse to trot on the 1/4 mark in the banana shape. That is hard enough for some of them!!

1/2 pass can be the easiest to ride, but the hardest to train. : ) If it were easy to train everyone would be a coach and then the good guys wouldn't make money. lol.

Once the horse knows what to do you simply lift the inside rein a little and then use the inside leg and seat to move toward the inside (inside being from 1/4 line to rail according to bend)

Figure, if you are pushing your horse over from 1/4 mark to rail then how do you plan on getting from 1/2 mark to rail? How hard can you push? Not hard enough and you shouldn't HAVE to push that hard!!

Inside leg and outside rein my dear. Outside leg helps hold the haunch steady.

That is what I was taught and I believe in it.

I ready my own body with renvers. It helps me work on putting my weight on the inside of the horse’s body.
I do use HI to ready my horse. But I do not initiate the move from HI. I just do the HI, SI, Renvers sequence on the long side. Back to HI, 10m 1/2 circle, banana shape and then go for it. : )

It's hard keeping your parts, and your horse’s parts where they should be.

Unitil this post, I was going to cry. I agree with this poster.

[grayarabpony]

What I'd like to know is how horses know what you want when you ask for half pass. :lol: But they do!

PS. I agree with purplnrpl about the importance of inside seat bone. I was taught inside leg maintains bend and impulsion, outside leg and inside seat bone asks horse to step over and under.

[class]

I do agree about haunches in on the diagonal, which is a very different thing from a half pass, and is a very different angle and very, very different (and much easier) mechanics that avoid the difficulty of half pass, and half pass should never be initiated by moving the haunches in or by doing haunches in. But don't try to suggest that here, you'll get a bunch of outraged women breathing down your neck telling you haunches in on a diagonal is the same as half pass and that's all there is to it.

i doubt debbie mcdonald will come to this board and be all outraged and breathing down your neck about it, but she does say that the half pass is like a haunches in on the diagonal. and i tend to give her a "little" more credit than i give you.

[slc2]

dsorry gucci i didn't mean to direct that at you.

there is a big difference between 'like' and 'is'. Ask Bill Clinton.

i am saying haunches in on a diagonal is not a half pass.

of course it IS 'like' half pass. debbie macdonald is not exactly in doubt here.

i too was taught the 'importance of inside seat bone', but i was also taught, 'just look where you want to go, insteady of TRYING to do something with your weight or seat bones' looking in the right direction does as much with those seatbones as need be without, again, turning it into a 'falling to the wall' instead of a half pass.

[Dressage Art]

can someone give a good sequence of training events for half passFirst comes BEND around your inside leg. That work starts way before even asking for Half Pass: it starts with riding correct corners and changes of directions: if your horse is correctly bend around your inside leg and your aids are correctly from inside leg to the outside rein - then you can start shoulder-for and shoulder-in, then traverse and renvers. All of those exercisers do work on same thing but in a different manner: BEND. You train horse's muscles for a lateral work.

When your horse has solid muscles for the lateral work and can bend around your inside leg - then you ask for the Half Pass. So ask your horse to bend around your inside leg and connect him to your outside rein - your horse should stay in this position and then just with your outside leg sent your horse forward towards the point that you are looking at, while correcting the amount of an angle with your outside rein. Your body should be pointed towards the point that you looking at as well. Your shoulders should stay parallel to the ground - try not to collapse to the inside during the Half Pass.

The aids for the Half Pass is not hard - it's the correct BEND that quite difficult and keep the activity going with that BEND.

Some people think that straight Leg Yield is a Half Pass - it is not. If horse doesn't have BEND in his body, it is not a Half Pass, no matter how much leg crossing you get.

PS: During the shoulder-in, renvers and traverse only ONE pair of legs are crossing: either front or hind. During the Half Pass BOTH pairs of legs are crossing. During the Leg Yield there is no BEND. During the Half Pass there is BEND. Shoulder-in, renvers and traverse all have BEND as well --- that is the difference between all of those exercises IF executed correctly.

As for "hunches-in" there is no official definition for that term, so it varies from trainer to trainer.

[class]

I do agree about haunches in on the diagonal, which is a very different thing from a half pass


of course it IS 'like' half pass.

wow.

[merrygoround]

Half passes travel on a diagonal line. Nobody is saying the half pass puts the body on a diagonal bend. THE LINE OF TRAVEL is a diagonal one. It is not straight forward, backwords, or sideways. The horses' entire body is parallell to the wall, ben in the direction of travel, and travelling on a diagonal LINE across the arena. How do you ride that your half passes travel on a straight forward line? :confused:


You misunderstood everyone's posts. We all know the body is parallel to the wall, we are saying the line of travel is diagonal.

What you say And about the H/P is absolutely correct.

Also the S/I, H/I, & H/P, are all dependent on a strong inside leg,with the weight, if anywhere, on the inside seat bone. The outside leg supports the bend. Now! What you do with your hips, is the key to where you go with this bend. :) :) Cha-cha, cha-cha, cha, cha, cha!!!!! :lol:

The reins support the bend.

[Pony Fixer]

Now where is that Dressage Today from this past year with the exercises about learning HP as a HI on a diagonal line? It was some BNT. I'm sure she's sharing a coffee in slick's kitchen as we speak.

There are some semantic differences going on here. I agree with purple (and others), and don't think all our posts are all that divergent. For some, emphasis is on weight placement, others leg placement, others bend, etc. which probably has a lot to do with who taught us and what our/our horse's issues happen to be.

My horse has a wicked HI, and a wicked HP, (when I ride the horse, not the movement, that is). Of course the key is always engagement, forward while applying the aids.

And, slick, I *always* think HI on the diagonal as my line of sight in the test, I have NEVER been marked down for it, and get good scores. Not "marked down/lose points" as you alluded to. I don't always think of it that way because I mix it all up at home (SI to HP, SI to HI, SI to med to HP, etc). But in the test, I pick my letter, align the shoulders, and HI/HP all the way to the bank.

Damn that dangling participle again....

[Gucci Cowgirl]

SP once told me to start training the HP as a HI on the diagonal, but to me, it made me lose the shoulders on the green horse.

So, what I teach, and how I think when I ride, is "POINT the shoulders and BRING the haunches"

that way, the shoulders are always pointed at the place you want to end up at, and not pointing straight ahead, and the haunches are not trailing beside, but staying right with the horse every step of the way.

the minute the shoulders point forward, instead of to the inside, it's not a HP.

that's just what works for me and my students...

[Pony Fixer]

I rather like that explanation, too. And to me, it's basically the same thing. I line up the shoulders with my direction of travel, then "bring the haunches" as you say in a HP.

Actually, I am well aware there are going to be multiple ACCURATE descriptions of the same movement. And no, I do not mean, multiple accurate WAYS to do the same movement, just how people describe them. That's why I can take a clinic and have a light bulb moment when the clinician says exactly what my trainer says in every lesson!!!

It just jumps in my craw when someone (not directed at you GC) says something must NEVER be described/ridden that way, it is wrong wrong wrong, you will lose points, it will ruin your horse, it will ruin your hair, the gods will cry, etc. And with that, now that it has cooled down, I'm gonna go out and ride me some HP (or is that HI on the diagonal), while others ride their keyboard and tell me I'm doing it all wrong ;)

[ideayoda]

Interestingly half pass is call traversal. And the rules say: i. Half-pass. This movement is a variation of travers, executed on the diagonal insteadof along the wall. The horse should be slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider in orderto give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, thus adding ease and grace to themovement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters. The outside legs pass and cross in front of the inside legs. The horse is looking in the directionin which he is moving. He should maintain the same cadence and balance throughout thewhole movement. In order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, whichadds to the ease and grace of the movement, it is of great importance, not only that thehorse is correctly bent and thereby prevented from protruding his inside shoulder, but also to maintain the impulsion, especially the engagement of the inside hind leg.

If one puts poles on the diagonal line and rides travers along it, they will be doing half pass. The long diagonal with the line of medium tests, and the short diagonal that of fei. The horse is NOT parallel to the (longside) wall (that is LY). Inside leg is to sustain the energy or to change to go straight ahead, the outside leg supports the bend. (And to keep the energy it is forward/sideways, not sideways/forward).

To develop think that s.i. is the first step onto a circle, the travers the last step of a circle. Once the horse can do travers, just start a step of shoulder in and then rider travers on a diagonal line. Pulse the aids. Bringing both hands buoyantly and with a hint of inside/forward directs the horse while supporting the outside shoulder and yet the slight forward hint gives the horse a longer posture.

The hindlegs do not cross in SI, but it is the only exercises where they do not cross. They are consider to cross in the all the others.

[slc2]

HUH? I never said i would not do haunches in on a diagonal. that's an exercise i use. i said it's not half pass, and i agree with GC, that it loses the shoulders if one tries to develop a half pass right out of it. ie, start diagonal in haunches in and develop half pass. i do both, but i do them as separate exercises.

i said if you go in a show and you start half pass with the haunches in off the track, you lose points, and you do, and it is a very hard habit once it's established. the haunches are not supposed to lead in half pass, even when just strating the half pass.

[BaroquePony]

On the leg yield both sets of legs should cross, the body should be straight the neck should be bent slightly to the inside, and the horse should be moving away from the direction of the bend.

The shoulder-in can vary. Basic shoulder-in is a three track mpovement where the front legs will cross and the outside hind leg will just step over into the track of the inside hind leg. The shoulder-in should be moving more forward than sideways. It is acceptable to have a more extreme shoulder-in than just the three-track version, where there is more reaching under with the outside leg to where it begins to cross over and the movement becomes slightly more sideways and still goes forward.

Half-pass both sets of legs cross. It is as much forward movement as sideways movement. Technically you could do it down the centerline and the body (spine) of the horse would be at a forty-five degree angle. Yes, it is usually done coming off the wall and travelling on the diagonal with the spine of the horse remaining parallel to the wall.

As far as using the inside seat bone goes for either the shoulder-in or the half-pass or any lateral movement, I hesitate to describe using the weight of the rider like that since I have been taught that the rider should essentially be carrying their weight equally on their seatbones throughout all movements. That does not mean they don't use each seat bone seperately throughout the strides to influence the horse's back, but they should not drop their weight into one seat bone for an entire movement or even an entire stride, they should be rolling through their seat bones. They can add a bit of weight to, or lighten up, one seat bone or the other as they "roll through" the rythym of the gait.

The rider is asking the horse to allow for the rider to move/bend the spine of the horse and activate the hind legs of the horse through the use of the seat bones and leg aids.

As far as someone saying that they had been taught to lead with the shoulder in the half-pass, using the outside leg as the predominant aid for the half-pass does not preclude leading with the shoulder.

[BaroquePony]

The angle of the spine of the horse at the half-pass may be 10 or 20 degrees off parallel to the wall.

[~Freedom~]

Damn that dangling participle again....

Snip..snip...there do you feel better ?:winkgrin:

[ideayoda]

Riders should start HP with a step of shoulder in, then ask for the HP (traversal).

Shoulder in (even on four tracks) should never cross the hindfeet, it has to do with the degree of bend (ie shoulder fore a step onto a 20m circle/shoulder in a step onto a 10m circle/and four track shoulder in a step onto a 6 or 8m volte).

[BaroquePony]

The four-track shoulder-in can be more flexible when done down the long wall. It certainly is possible to have a bending horse moving away from the bend and crossing both sets of legs over. Basically a leg-yield with bend from poll to tail ... slightly more forward than a leg yield maybe, but similar.

I only bring this up because I tend to use it as a somewhat exaggerated movement that the horse begins to understand quicker.

Edited to add: actually it's been years since I gotten a horse to leg yield. I haven't asked for it. I like getting bending going.

[J-Lu]

HUH? I never said i would not do haunches in on a diagonal. that's an exercise i use. i said it's not half pass, and i agree with GC, that it loses the shoulders if one tries to develop a half pass right out of it. ie, start diagonal in haunches in and develop half pass. i do both, but i do them as separate exercises.

i said if you go in a show and you start half pass with the haunches in off the track, you lose points, and you do, and it is a very hard habit once it's established. the haunches are not supposed to lead in half pass, even when just strating the half pass.

I don't understand your posts. What does starting half-pass on the centerline at a show have to do with the topic of conversation? It's easy to fix angles in a half-pass, and if you can't, then perhaps you're not ready to show at that level?? One *should* be able to make haunches lead...and then trail...and then simply follow as an exercise in obedience and suppleness. You should be able to place the shoulders and haunches *anywhere* if you are working at third level and above. In fact, if you're riding fourth level test 2, you are tested on your ability to differentiate between shoulder-in aids, volte aids, and half-pass aids (they come one after the other on the centerline). And if you're actually riding haunches in on the diagonal as described by ideayoda, the haunches aren't leading to an observer at C.

FWIW, I weight the inside seatbone and leg in the halfpass (i.e. stand *slightly* in the inside stirrup), and use the inside leg to keep the bend. So my horse stays under my weight as we go sideways. I use the inside hip to encourage reach with the inside foreleg. I use the outside leg to keep the activity in the crossing and hind-end and maintain the position of the haunches in relation to the line I'm riding. I control the shoulders and the front end elevation with the outside rein. THAT said, I'm aware not to over-aid so the horse stays free and swinging (ideally). BTW, I weight the inside seatbone for the shoulder-in, too. I do different things with my hip and thigh and knee, though, to direct my horse. Here, I think analogies to ballroom dancing are very appropriate. I lead, the horse follows. Ideally. :winkgrin: This is how I learned it from my most excellent trainers and this is how I ride it. :)
J.

[Dressage Art]

The four-track shoulder-in can be more flexible when done down the long wall. It certainly is possible to have a bending horse moving away from the bend and crossing both sets of legs over. Basically a leg-yield with bend from poll to tail ... slightly more forward than a leg yield maybe, but similar.If both front and hind legs are crossing - this is no longer a shoulder-in according to the rules and that "move" will score a 4 or lower.

If all legs are crossing - it's either Half Pass or Leg Yield. Half Pass has inside bend. Leg Yield has no bend, but has outside flexion. The movement that you are describing doesn't exist: has counter bend and both front and hind legs crossing. Either you invented a new movement or it's a not correctly aligned Leg Yield.

Dressage judging 101, biomechanics of dressage lateral work:

Leg Yield - both front and hind legs crossing, no bend, slight outside flexion.
Shoulder in - only front legs crossing, hind legs trot up straight, has bend to the inside.
Renvers - only hind legs crossing, front legs trot up straight, has bend to the outside (hunches out)
Travers - only hind legs crossing, front legs trot up straight, has bend to the inside (hunches in)
Half Pass - both hind and front legs crossing, has bend to the inside.

[oldbag]

If you can do the shoulder-in correctly then you can do the half-pass.

All of the aids are basically the same, but you switch from using the inside leg on the girth as your predominant aid for the shoulder-in to using your outside leg behind the girth as the predominant aid for the half-pass.

You can do a zig zag down the centerline using shoulder-in and switch to half-pass and back again.

Oh no you can't!
Shoulder in is much easier, bent away from direction of movement. Nothing like half pass.

The aids for all movements with bend are the same ie inside leg(into outside rein) on the girth outside leg behind girth.

The outside leg should never be the dominant aid. Always forward from the inside one.

[merrygoround]

can someone give a good sequence of training events for half pass

Aren't you glad you asked. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[merrygoround]

Oh no you can't!
Shoulder in is much easier, bent away from direction of movement. Nothing like half pass.

The aids for all movements with bend are the same ie inside leg(into outside rein) on the girth outside leg behind girth.

The outside leg should never be the dominant aid. Always forward from the inside one.

Agreed, it is much harder to go from S/I, S/F,to H/P. It can be done, but involves a directional change.

[Trixie's mom]

this has been interesting reading to say the least.

let's start another thread and disect something else!

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by Dressage Art:

If all legs are crossing - it's either Half Pass or Leg Yield. Half Pass has inside bend. Leg Yield has no bend, but has outside flexion. The movement that you are describing doesn't exist: has counter bend and both front and hind legs crossing. Either you invented a new movement or it's a not correctly aligned Leg Yield.

I actually didn't invent the "new move", but I did learn the concept of such a movement from one of the 4-H leaders that I used to work with and he was a western 4-H Championship reining rider and trainer and it was called a "side pass".

The first time I was introduced to the move, I had a heart failure.

The more I learned about good western riding and training, the more I saw the direct connection going all the way back to the Spaniards and some of it going back to the Spanish Riding School.

One of the things I like about the move is its lack of perfect definition. You can do it with forward movement or without.

I teach my horses to do it in the barn. It is a great addition to ground manners.

I have worked with German riders that do it when they are schooling and at least one of the BN instructors I have worked with used it also. They do get a bit more specific than the western version, but it is essentially the same thing.

Some horse are so athletic and flexible naturally that it is far more difficult to get a leg-yield where the body of the horse is straight than it is to get a leg-yield where the bend is present. On a horse like that, I am not going to ask the horse to straighten his body, especially when I've been asking for bending in every other thing that I've been schooling.


Originally posted by Dressage Art:

If both front and hind legs are crossing - this is no longer a shoulder-in according to the rules and that "move" will score a 4 or lower.

I never said I would ride it in a test.

There are a lot of movements and exercises that aren't actually defined per se. They are hybrid movements that come into play all of the time as the horse and rider develop.

There are a lot of excersices for both horse and rider that go slightlyy beyond the "definitions" of correct that are a good thing to learn and practice, otherwise certain things will never be understood or felt by either horse or rider and the correct movements may never be fully developed.

[WindsongEq]

Interestingly half pass is call traversal. And the rules say: i. Half-pass. This movement is a variation of travers, executed on the diagonal insteadof along the wall. The horse should be slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider in orderto give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, thus adding ease and grace to themovement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters. The outside legs pass and cross in front of the inside legs. The horse is looking in the directionin which he is moving. He should maintain the same cadence and balance throughout thewhole movement. In order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, whichadds to the ease and grace of the movement, it is of great importance, not only that thehorse is correctly bent and thereby prevented from protruding his inside shoulder, but also to maintain the impulsion, especially the engagement of the inside hind leg.

If one puts poles on the diagonal line and rides travers along it, they will be doing half pass. The long diagonal with the line of medium tests, and the short diagonal that of fei
Interesting thread! I have always been taught half pass as Idea yoda and DA describe by EVERY trainer I have ridden with....STRAIGHT FROM THE RULEBOOK I think some of the comments on this thread have a bit more to do with corrections that riders have been taught to improve their half pass than what the aids for the actual half pass are...
Common mistakes for riders learning/perfecting the half pass are to put their weight on the outside of the horse (it somehow makes them feel as if it makes their outer leg stronger) that particular rider must sit to the inside so their weight is centered.
For the rider that loses the bend or the horse leads with the haunch, going from half pass to shoulder in on the quarter line, then continue the half pass will re-initiate the bend and/or correct positioning.
For the rider that loses the shoulders and the horse "falls sideways" into the half pass, leg yielding back towards the wall that you just came from gets the horse off the inside leg and connected back into the outer rein, then start again a half pass.
For those questioning the concept of travers on the diagonal line being a correct half pass, watch the half pass being performed by a student at the end of that diagonal line rather than directly from "A" or "C". It is perceptual.
For those questioning the concept of starting the half pass with a step of shoulder fore, try zig zags in front of a mirror, the horses' shoulders are narrower than their hips and the shoulders must be positioned correctly to the inside a step before you start the new half pass.

[MyReality]

I don't get the haunches in part. I thought half pass is from SI on diagonal line... shoulders leading. I see a couple of people have tried to explain the role of haunches in, but I still don't get it.

[ideayoda]

DA I would refer you to the rules (about crossing):

f. Shoulder-in. This exercise is performed in collected trot. The horse is ridden with a
slight but uniform bend around the inside leg of the rider maintaining cadence at a constant
angle of approx. 30 degrees. The horse’s inside foreleg passes and crosses in front
of the outside foreleg; the inside hind leg steps forward under the horse’s body weight followingthe same track of the outside foreleg, with the lowering of the inside hip. The horse is bent away from the direction in which it is moving. (see Fig. 1). If the shoulder-in is performed on the long side or on the center line, the horse should be straightened after the shoulder-in, before going into the corner. If the movement that follows the shoulder-in isa circle at any point, or a turn left or right at any point other than the four corners, the horse should not be straightened.

g. Travers. This exercise can be performed in collected trot or collected canter. The horse
is slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider but with a greater degree of bend than in
shoulder-in. A constant angle of approximately 35 degrees should be shown, from the
front and from behind one sees four tracks. The forehand remains on the track and the
quarters are moved inwards. THE HORSES OUTSIDE LEGS PASS AND CROSS IN FRONT OF THE INSIDE LEGS. The horse is bent in the direction in which it is moving. To start the travers, the quarters must leave the track or, after a corner or circle, are not brought back onto the track. At the end of the travers, the quarters are brought back on the track without any counter-flexion of the poll/neck as one would finish a circle. (see Fig. 2).

h. Renvers. This is the inverse movement in relation to travers, with the tail instead of the
head to the wall. Otherwise the same principles and conditions are applicable as at the
travers (see Fig. 3).

i. Half-pass. This movement is a variation of travers, executed on the diagonal instead
of along the wall. The horse should be slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider in orderto give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, thus adding ease and grace to the movement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters. The outside legs pass and cross in front of the inside legs. The horse is looking in the direction
in which he is moving. He should maintain the same cadence and balance throughout the
whole movement. In order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, which
adds to the ease and grace of the movement, it is of great importance, not only that the
horse is correctly bent and thereby prevented from protruding his inside shoulder, but
also to maintain the impulsion, especially the engagement of the inside hind leg (see fig.
4).

I understand what you are trying to convey about the lines of travel concept, but that is different that what crosses (t/r/hp/ly) and where the hindleg is placed in s.i.).

[purplnurpl]

thus adding ease and grace to themovement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters.

To develop think that s.i. is the first step onto a circle,



Oui, I lied. I had to check back in just because it was the top thread on the D board.

I think you can find these points QUOTED FROM THE DEFINITION in my post.

also, if you are using your outside leg to make your horse move to the inside you are pushing.
and, if you LOOK to the inside, your weight goes to the inside. Some of us aren't perfect enough to stay put in our seat. You know the saying, think about leaning backward and you will finally be sitting straight? Ya. that one.

thanks.
nof said.

[Phyxius]

http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2008/08-DR.pdf
USEF Rulebook - DR 111 (page 7) i - Half Pass -

This movement is a variation of travers, executed on the diagonal instead
of along the wall. The horse should be slightly bent round the inside leg of the rider in order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, thus adding ease and grace to the movement although the forehand should be slightly in advance of the quarters. The outside legs pass and cross in front of the inside legs. The horse is looking in the direction in which he is moving. He should maintain the same cadence and balance throughout the whole movement. In order to give more freedom and mobility to the shoulders, which adds to the ease and grace of the movement, it is of great importance, not only that the horse is correctly bent and thereby prevented from protruding his inside shoulder, but also to maintain the impulsion, especially the engagement of the inside hind leg.

[purplnurpl]

Some people think that straight Leg Yield is a Half Pass - it is not. If horse doesn't have BEND in his body, it is not a Half Pass, no matter how much leg crossing you get.




That and, Leg Yield the horse should always be straight. with very slight, very very slight bend in the poll.

I learned that when the Irish Olympic Eventing coach started yelling at me.
I said..."wait,,,what???"

[Phyxius]

and, if you LOOK to the inside, your weight goes to the inside. Some of us aren't perfect enough to stay put in our seat.

It's actually the opposite. I have a lot of trouble with my right side, keeping the weight to the right, this is very obviously when I'm cantering to the right or doing lateral work that needs weight to the right. If you look in the OPPOSITE direction you'll weight the "correct" side.

Sitting in your chair right now, turn your head to the left...what did your body do? Now, turn your head to the right...what happened? When I was first told this I thought my trainer was nuts. But it works, every time I start to get out of position, I just look left to get my self straightened back out.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

I find the opposite, Phyxius.

I look to the right, even sitting in a chair, and I feel my right seat bone get heavier. Same to the left...

I think people's bodies are all made differently, and things are not going to work all the same for every person

[purplnurpl]

Sitting in your chair right now, turn your head to the left...what did your body do? Now, turn your head to the right...what happened?

lol. I'm an eventer.
When I looked to the right, my body and my horse turned and jumped the skinny that was set at a 70* 4 stride line off of the 4' down bank. Darn good thing my horse knows to follow my body weight or I would have had a run out...going at 500mpm.

{wink}

[Kaeleer]

I have a headache!!

[grayarabpony]

Me too. Now WHAT is supposed to happen when I turn my head?

Hopefully the horse will halfpass in that direction. lol

[Valentina_32926]

A half pass is basically a haunches in on a diagonal line.

If you have mirrors they can be very helpful to check your horse's angle/position. I tend to bring the haunches too much and get yelled at. ;)

After positioning the horse as stated above step into the stirrup in the direction you want to go - horse will follow as long as you're not blocking horse from doing so.

[merrygoround]

I don't get the haunches in part. I thought half pass is from SI on diagonal line... shoulders leading. I see a couple of people have tried to explain the role of haunches in, but I still don't get it.

Until you are strong in H/I, and understand the concept of moving forward into the inside bend, you cannot do H/P. In H/I, you are moving forward, with the hips bend around your inside driving leg, from there it is an easy conceppt to move sideways into the inside leg.

In S/I you are moving away from the inside bending leg.

[BaroquePony]

Here is a link to a photograph that I scanned from Training Hunters, Jumpers and Hacks, by Brig. Gen. Harry D. Chamberlin. It shows the shoulder-in being done with both sets of legs crossing over, AND there is a text description verifiying it. It is a defined excercise.


http://black-forest-design.net/SI-Hacks-600-N1.gif

[Gucci Cowgirl]

The OP's question was about HP, why do we need to see justification for an incorrect SI exercise?

If you use it, it's your choice. It has no place in my training program, or that of my coaches.

Don't see what it has to do with HP though.

Also, the title of the book clearly says it's for training "Hunters, Jumpers, and Hacks" not dressage horses....we are talking about dressage here!

[BaroquePony]

Well, technically it is dressage and many dressage horses don't go as forward as they should.

Not all dressage is used to go to Gran Prix dressage levels. A great deal of it is used in eventing and other disciplines, like jumping and even western reining.

There actually seems to be a fair amount of "dessage" that isn't exactly aimed in a very good direction either.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Wow.....I think a lot of people made half pass very complicated. Hell now I'm confused. To the OP...I suggest getting a good book like Riding Logic. And taking a good lesson.

I also think how you ride it depends quite a bit on the horse you are sitting on at that moment...because there is more than one aid being used and what aid is predominate depends on what the horse is doing at that moment.

But I usually do start from a shoulder in (or 10m circle to SI) and usually either work to or from the quarter line...and I try and remember that the horse is really stretching across their outside more than they have been asked before so it isn't easy, it takes time to develop---so start at the walk and don't ask for more than a few steps at a time in the begining.

[Schiffon]

My Reality:
Bravo for asking a straight forward question! (Pun intended).

First, let's call haunches-in a travers, so it is a movement that doesn't have a reference to position of body parts.

The idea of HP being a travers on a diagonal is supposed to make it easier to ride, not more complicated, like so many here are making it.

Track left. Proceed onto a long diagonal, FXH, straight and normal like in training level, but horse should be able to do some degree of collection. Now pretend there is a wall on the right side of the horse that goes from F to H. Apply the aids for travers left. Keep looking at H, keep the horse's head pointed to H, keep thinking of the imaginary wall on your right side, keep doing travers. To the observer at C, you are doing HP! You shouldn't even think about HP. If you think of HP too much, you will worry about whether you can get the horse to move sideways, and push too much with the outside leg, and get too much angle so the observer at C will see the haunches closer to the long-side wall than the shoulder. As long as you keep the horse's head pointed at H, you will get there without pushing. If things go awry, release the traver aids, go straight towards H again and start over.

Eventually, in a show where you want the first step off of the track at F to be in half-pass, you aren't allowed the luxury of time to proceed straight on the diagonal before applying travers aids. But don't worry about that until you can do travers as described above easily and your brain is comfortable with the spacial geometry of the thing.

[merrygoround]

It's actually the opposite. I have a lot of trouble with my right side, keeping the weight to the right, this is very obviously when I'm cantering to the right or doing lateral work that needs weight to the right. If you look in the OPPOSITE direction you'll weight the "correct" side.

Sitting in your chair right now, turn your head to the left...what did your body do? Now, turn your head to the right...what happened? When I was first told this I thought my trainer was nuts. But it works, every time I start to get out of position, I just look left to get my self straightened back out.

Good grief, child!! Look where you are going!!! I ain't gettin in a car with you drivin'. :lol: :lol:

Looking where you are going is a cardinal rule in riding, how else will the horse know what you are up to? :lol:

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by merrygoround:

Looking where you are going is a cardinal rule in riding, how else will the horse know what you are up to? :lol:

mental telepathy and the rule book :lol:

[MelantheLLC]

I had a horse that had been with an eventing trainer for awhile before I got him. If you turned your head only, doing nothing else, no change of weight, no rein, no leg, nothing-- after about two strides he would turn in that direction.

I tested this over and over, making sure I was doing nothing else with my body but turn my head at the neck and look right or left. I tried with one seatbone weighted and then the other, to rule out a weight or balance change; one leg weighted and then the other in two point. It was the head turn that made him change direction, not the weight/balance cue.

I believe they can learn a head turn as a visual cue. I know they can see it! I think he had learned it from the eventer who was a top trainer--whether the trainer had deliberately taught that or not I don't know, but this horse knew that when the rider looked left, in a stride or two he should turn left.

Just food for thought. I think horses pick up on things we have no idea they are noticing, and don't notice things we believe we are telling them. ;)

[Gucci Cowgirl]

Well, technically it is dressage and many dressage horses don't go as forward as they should.

Not all dressage is used to go to Gran Prix dressage levels. A great deal of it is used in eventing and other disciplines, like jumping and even western reining.

There actually seems to be a fair amount of "dessage" that isn't exactly aimed in a very good direction either.

What does this have to do with half passes?

I am also still waiting for you to show me where I wrote "cross both hands over the withers" for a shoulder in..

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by MelantheLLC:

I think horses pick up on things we have no idea they are noticing, and don't notice things we believe we are telling them.

I agree with this totally. You have to really be paying attention to some of them to understand where they are going ... and I don't mean "physical direction". They can be soooo willing to please that they can get ahead of you.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

On the leg yield both sets of legs should cross, the body should be straight the neck should be bent slightly to the inside, and the horse should be moving away from the direction of the bend.


There is no bend in a LY. The horse is supposed to be flexed to the inside, but not bent (anywhere, including the neck).

[purplnurpl]

I believe they can learn a head turn as a visual cue. I know they can see it! I think he had learned it from the eventer who was a top trainer--whether the trainer had deliberately taught that or not I don't know, but this horse knew that when the rider looked left, in a stride or two he should turn left.



Of course he trained it. Not specifically but when he wanted to go right he sure didn't keep his hands on the key board and look right and see if his left ass made the swivel chair move.

Rule #1. Look where you are going.
lol.

If you are looking right and your left seat bone is initiated then you are not keeping your rib case open. Yet collapsing on the inside.
ooops, the biomechanist in me. shhhhh. my bad.

oh crap. now we are going to start talking about Anatomy of Dressage and the Spiral seat.
Swim Away Foo-Go Fish Swim Away!! Charrrrllliiieeee!

[grayarabpony]

Oh no purplnurpl you've been sucked into one of those endless dressage spirals.

I can just see people trying out these moves on their swivel chairs. :lol:

[purplnurpl]

Here is a link to a photograph that I scanned from Training Hunters, Jumpers and Hacks, by Brig. Gen. Harry D. Chamberlin. It shows the shoulder-in being done with both sets of legs crossing over, AND there is a text description verifiying it. It is a defined excercise.


http://black-forest-design.net/SI-Hacks-600-N1.gif

That's the crappiest 4 track SI ever. He's not bent very evenly through his body..but more through his poll. And he looks stiff as all get out.

here:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/IMG_2315b.jpg

at this point it's not much of a SI, and def not a leg yield on the long side, yet a very nice gymnastic exercise that proves suppleness and obedience. Only has place in the school at home.

What do you get from this type of exercise? A damn nice working trot. But not a half pass.

[Phyxius]

Of course he trained it. Not specifically but when he wanted to go right he sure didn't keep his hands on the key board and look right and see if his left ass made the swivel chair move.

Rule #1. Look where you are going.
lol.

If you are looking right and your left seat bone is initiated then you are not keeping your rib case open. Yet collapsing on the inside.
ooops, the biomechanist in me. shhhhh. my bad.

oh crap. now we are going to start talking about Anatomy of Dressage and the Spiral seat.
Swim Away Foo-Go Fish Swim Away!! Charrrrllliiieeee!

Cripes, give it a try and if doesn't work THEN snipe. It's just about pointless to try to help people around here. The same thing doesn't work for everybody and almost every person who regularly rides has some *trick* or tip that has helped him. Keeping up with the status quo of just blowing other posters off is just silly and small minded.

[Dressage Art]

DA I would refer you to the rules (about crossing):

...

I understand what you are trying to convey about the lines of travel concept, but that is different that what crosses (t/r/hp/ly) and where the hindleg is placed in s.i.).
You lost me there,.. I'm familiar with the rules, and also at "L" program we actually had several questions in the written exam about what pairs of legs cross and what pairs travel straight for what lateral movement. We also had a very short description of the lateral movements and we had to answer which one that was... hind legs in shoulder-in do not cross - I've been personally told that by 2 of my instructors.

[BaroquePony]

Gucci Cowgirl,

Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:

I am also still waiting for you to show me where I wrote "cross both hands over the withers" for a shoulder in..

I did look to see if I could find it quickly and I couldn't. I am not going to spend hours of my time trying to find that quote.

However, your recent quote will work just as well.

Bringing both hands over to move the shoulders is not the correct way to make a turn. If you ride that way you loose the energy that you should be generating from tail to poll. You cause a "break" in the line of energy.

If you have schooled your horse correctly the spine of the horse is going to be parallel to the track of the movement and the shoulders are controlled by the inside leg and the hands essentially. The control of the shoulders actually becomes "balanced" between the inside leg controlling the rib cage and the hands controlling the mouth ... it is a "float" ... the shoulders can be easily moved because the horse is completely relaxed into the aids.

I am not going to go into the analysis of that on the half-pass thread.

Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:

I never said across the withers, I would love for you to show me where you think you saw those words??

I said bring both hands TOWARDSthe inside. like turning. BOTH hands in the direction of the turn. Never across, with either hand, in either direction. Every BNT I have trained with, plus "O" judge, all say the same thing. both hands towards go in the direction of the turn, or wherever you want the shoulders.
most people use only their inside rein, and crank it across the wither to the outside. That is the opposite of correct.


I posted the photograph of the shoulder-in being done with both sets of legs crossing. It is an old exercise that works very well. YOU didn't like it. However, it was posted to back up my initial statement saying, "If you can do the shoulder-in, you can do the half-pass."


Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:

What does this have to do with half passes?

[BaroquePony]

purplnurpl,

Originally posetd by purplnurpl:

That's the crappiest 4 track SI ever. He's not bent very evenly through his body..but more through his poll. And he looks stiff as all get out.

The horse he is riding if probably 15.2 and a cavalry remount. Short, tight cavalry horse built and schooled for jumping, galloping and long distance. Not a competition dressage horse.

I posted it to back up my comment that such an exercise did and does exist.

[BaroquePony]

Gucci,

It is not an "incorrect SI", it is an accepted exercise. I already answered the OPs question initially on the HP. YOU did not like my answer.

Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:

The OP's question was about HP, why do we need to see justification for an incorrect SI exercise?

Do you really think that I need you to tell me it's my choice? Now there's a concept. I don't ever recall saying that it should have a place in your training program or that of your coaches.

Originally posted by Gucci Cowgirl:

If you use it, it's your choice. It has no place in my training program, or that of my coaches.

[vanillabean]

My bnt and BNT <---bnt's BNT both say that:
legs control hind quarters
hands control shoulders
When the horse won't turn, you are not going forward and you are holding too much. Add leg and give.

Soooo...
half pass--- go forward, turn down c-line with inside leg supporting the horse's balance. Straight one stride, bend, aid for travers, and off you go. Then lots of inside leg for forward.

Half pass is easy, I don't get why people are so confused. Now haunches in- in a laterally stiff horse- is harder than half pass to maintain correctly because the angle weights the hind legs and blocks the horse's forward momentum more. So for the really laterally challenged horse, lots and lots of travers and renvers are in order!!
(I ride one :-D). It'll come- get lessons and a mirror.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by vanillabean:

legs control hind quarters
hands control shoulders

Yes, but there is a "float" in there between the bit and the hind quarters.

[~Freedom~]

Soooo...
half pass--- go forward, turn down c-line with inside leg supporting the horse's balance. Straight one stride, bend, aid for travers, and off you go. Then lots of inside leg for forward.

Half pass is easy.

It is NOT as hard as everyone is making it out to be. One of the reason I rarely even bother to post anything about dressage either here or UDBB.

Basically if you as a trainer have the total control you should have you can over exaggerate anything or under exaggerate anything as well as all positions in between.

It is call exercising and the testing of the suppleness and obedience of the horse.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

I'll make sure Steffan Peters and Axel Steiner know they have been teaching me incorrectly :rolleyes:


Thanks for showing me the light :sadsmile:

[BaroquePony]

Well, I don't actually like the way Steffen Peters rides. Alex Stiener I haven't watched. Is he connected to Betsy Steiner?

[ideayoda]

(Her ex BIL)

[Dressage Art]

Well, I don't actually like the way Steffen Peters rides.Oh, I do! GO STEFFEN!!! Cheering for you from a peanut gallery to do well at Olympics! GO-OOO STEFFEN!!! GO STEFFEN!!! GO STEFFEN!!! YAY!!!
PS: Also GO San Francisco CDS chapter fellow member Akiko Yamazaki, owner of Ravel and Lombardi 11. Both horses are Olympic bound with their rider Steffen Peters. YAY!!!!

[ideayoda]

DA, we agree the hindlegs do not cross in SI, but you are saying (from what I read) that both fore and hind do not cross in other lateral work, and they DO.

[Dressage Art]

DA, we agree the hindlegs do not cross in SI, but you are saying (from what I read) that both fore and hind do not cross in other lateral work, and they DO.
No, I think you might off misunderstood... In ALL lateral work either front or hind or both do cross. This is what I said before:

Leg Yield - both front and hind legs crossing, no bend, slight outside flexion.
Shoulder in - only front legs crossing, hind legs trot up straight, has bend to the inside.
Renvers - only hind legs crossing, front legs trot up straight, has bend to the outside (hunches out)
Travers - only hind legs crossing, front legs trot up straight, has bend to the inside (hunches in)
Half Pass - both hind and front legs crossing, has bend to the inside.

[goeslikestink]

not going to input as such as some have made it very confusing for you so go here


has diagrams for you from schoulder in to huanches in / out
aleg yeilds and half passes


http://www.eques.com.au/training/june/forward.htm

[goeslikestink]

and this will help you to http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/contact.html

[Kaeleer]

I hate you all.

I spent an HOUR yesterday afternoon trying to teach my little TB to do haunches in. Every muscle in my legs aches.

[ideayoda]

R/T/HP/LY both ends cross (as per the rules)

[egontoast]

A person would have to be either nuts or masochistic to ask a training question on this board (or any other dressage board).:cry: it seems to be more about egos than actually trying to help the person who is asking the question.