Inside leg to outside rein question

[MoonPie730]

Recently I have been doing some reading and I came across a term that I was never taught as a hunter jumper rider. I have read about using your inside leg to outside rein and I am not sure if I am doing it correctly. My horse is reaching down and coming onto the bit for the first time, but she is also starting to pull a lot.

I was wondering if first someone could further explain it to me.

And tell me if reaching down onto the bit and pulling against it is normal, will she eventually start to hold herself, what can I expect and/or changes I need to make?

[Rusty Stirrup]

This is one of the most basic tenets of dressage. It is also one of the things that require the most finesse. If your horse has been working with little contact and pretty much on the forehand it is pretty normal for the pulling at first. Don't fix your hands. The horse needs time to relearn how to balance both himself and you. Keep the contact as elastic as you can. Let him reach into the bit. Muscles and way of travel have to adapt. Don't ask for too much at first. The connection will come. I would rather have a horse that reacts this way than one who 'shrinks back' or 'curls up' from the contact.

http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/contact.html

[merrygoround]

One of the easiest ways to feel the effect of this is to ride a 10 m circle, then while maintaining that bend, from your inside leg, not your inside hand, push out sideways and enarge the circle, but maintain the bend.

If you are capable or riding shoulder-in, you will feel the effect also, as, if done correctly , you should be able to give (make a slight loop) in the inside rein, with out losing the bend.

If your horse is hanging on the bit, you need to soften your fingers, slightly, and perhaps give the inside rein , while continuing to use your legs strongly. Riding serpentines will help as it continually changes the inside leg, and outside hand.

[BaroquePony]

When I think of the term "inside leg to outside rein" I think of what that means relative to all of the terms used in riding, training, teaching etc., and I have only one image .....

The rider is no longer pulling a horse to make a turn, he is driving the horse from the haunches to make a turn. He is not riding the horse from front to back any longer, he is riding the horse from back to front.

Instead of lumbering along heavy on the forehand and having the rider pull the unschooled horse through a turn, the rider had schooled the horse in rebalancing himself to carry the weight of both horse and rider more evenly by engaging the haunches and rounding the back.

This is done using the various schooling exercises along with understanding how to use the aids collectively and "correctly" in the classical sense. "Correclty" in the classical sense means first, and foremost, the rider must develop the seat (buns stay stuck to the saddle and the spine of the rider ripples in order to absorb the motion of the horse's back) so that the rider can use the leg aids and hand aids independently of each other.

The majority of the schooling exercises revolve around some form of "inside leg to outside rein". The inside leg develops the bending of the horse through the ribcage. The outside rein controls the speed and is usually always a "steady" rein.

The rest of the aids are added to that core "starting point".

On the circle ....

The outside leg "behind the girth" asks the horse to bend the haunches inward to compliment the "outward" bend of the ribcage that comes from using the inside leg "on the girth". The horse's spine should be evenly bent on the circle.

Every horse and every rider are different, so developing the balance goes through various stages and conditioning is something that is part of the process for all of them. In order to train the horse and/or rider there needs to be a core amount of regular exercises that are part of riding every day and new exercises, or at least the beginnings of new exercises, that are added every day.

Example: walking on a long rein and walking an a light contact are going to be in every riders daily work. So is the halt, the halt to walk upward transition and the walk to halt downward transition. Then ad the trot and walk-trot upward and downward transitions. After monthes of adding small pieces at a time, the horse and rider should be doing walk, trot, canter and halt on circles and straight lines comfortably and with at least active hindquarters, a rounded back (horse) and a light contact. The turn on the forehand and the leg yield would also have been added to begin teaching the horse to move away from the "inside leg" "on the girth". Then exercises that begin to add the "outside leg" "behind the girth" to bend the haunches and activate the hind legs even more are added to the mix.

One simple example of "inside leg to outside rein" would be the rider who asks his horse to stay out on the rail by using his inside leg to ask the horse to move out into the outside rein which is used to control the speed of the horse. That would be different than the rider who pulls his horse to the rail using the outside rein.

As far as your horse reaching for a contact and then becoming heavy. That is not unusual. The horse that gets comfortable with a contact will sometimes rest its head in your hands. That's a fifty pound head your are now carrying for your horse. You can give the horse a very tiny upward "jab" to get it to lighten up. Make sure you ask horse to go forward at the same time.

[MoonPie730]

Thank you for all the responses. I have a much better idea of what i need to do. The thing is, she is not getting heavy, she is rooting and pulling the reins through my hands. I have been letting the reins slide through my hands but it's annoying b/c every time I gather my reins she roots down again.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by MoonPie 730:

I have been letting the reins slide through my hands but it's annoying b/c every time I gather my reins she roots down again.

I call it yanking the reins out of your hands and it is different than having her get heavy in your hands.

One solution to that is, at the trot, to hold/grab each side of the pommel of your saddle with each hand - and hold each rein solidly using the side of the front of your saddle as a reinforcement - to add strength to your hands and then let her "root" - she will bump herself in the mouth - your hands will be steadied by holding on to the sides of the pommel and you will not be directly punishing her - she will only be punishing herself. You actually use the saddle to steady and strengthen your hands and make yourself like a set of side reins for the moment. [Edit to add: this only works at the trot because it is a steady equal gait where your hands should not be moving, it is only a very temporary fix that can sometimes help you progess without causing any type of bad habit]

That is one solution.

Are you using reins that have leather stops on them? The stops help a lot. When she goes to "root" just tighten up on the reins for a moment, then go back to following her mouth with your contact, and put your leg on her to make her go forward into the contact.

"Tightening up on the rein" can vary. It is best done when you actually can add strength to it by sitting deep in the saddle and bring the contact back through your elbows in such a way as to be able to use the strength of your seat ... it involves something called the "hand hip connection". When a horse wants to take the reins away from you, they have quit a bit of strength. It doesn't seem like much, but it is.

What you are trying to do is to keep following her mouth with a nice contact, but when she takes the reins you want to be able to offer compete resistance to that. You need to find a place of strength in the saddle for that to work. You do not want to pull back to stop her from doing it, but rather always be prepared to tighten up and offer a "brick wall" for her to bump her mouth into, and then relax and go forward as if nothing happened.

I don't know if that helped at all.

[Ibex]

We often lunge them in progressively shorter side reins. It helps teach contact through a turn without the inconsistency of the riders hand, and lets the horses learn how to balance themselves.

Of course all things in moderation... this shouldn't be done excessively, or with cranked in side reins that pull them BTV. The horse should be able to reach down and into the reins and carry themselves either on the vertical or slightly in front of it.

ETA: I ride with thin rubber reins as well... it helps to hang on when they decide to take the reins away!

[slc2]

You've seen that giving the rein and letting it slip thru your hands doesn't work. Every time you do, you take up the reins again and the horse roots again.

In fact, slipping the reins rewards her for rooting. and encourages her to do it more.

I don't agree with BaroquePony - 'setting the hand' on the saddle to correct rooting or yanking I don't agree with, but I also don't agree with giving the reins so the reins are longer - either for this problem or for the horse that just pulls steadily.

It's very often said (on this bb) that if a horse pulls steadily, one should simply make the reins longer. That makes the problem worse. Horses pull, horses are not light in the bridle because they are off balance. The longer rein makes them more off balance. Instead, push the hind legs so they swing farther forward, and 'take a big step up under the horse'. This is what resolves pulling - improving balance. Letting the reins lengthen makes the pulling (and the balance) worse.

Back to rooting. When the horse 'roots', or yanks suddenly downward, it is usually an incorrect 'tight downward' stretch that is not stretching the back correctly. It isn't of value.

push him forward, immediately, decisively, with your legs and if you don't get an immediate jet ride forward, use your whip to 'escalate' and get a response.

With the hands, don't lengthen the reins, and don't 'set' the hand hard. Instead, work the reins with the fingers, maintaining the rein length without being rigid. Don't allow yourself to be pulled forward or your hands to go forward with the reins, but don't brace - instead of offering that fixed resistance (which makes rooting worse), have a SLIGHT flexibility with the reins, supple the horse with the reins by bending (and getting a response) on one rein, and then going quickly to 'ask that same question' with the other rein.

With many horses there's no need to do much of anything with the reins except maintain them where you are, all that it takes to correct rooting is pushign them immediately and decisively forward immediately. It has to be very immediate, very obvious, very quick.

[MoonPie730]

This makes a lot of sense. I have been letting the reins slide through my hands with the idea that she will quit pulling if she has nothing to pull against. I am about to leave to go ride her, I will give that a try.

[MoonPie730]

Another thought, should I switch bits? Right now she is in a loose ring snaffle, should I get something that is less enjoyable to root down on or would that defeat the purpose of trying to get her on the bit and to accept contact?

[slc2]

You haven't yet changed the way you think about this problem. you're still thinking that the horse roots in order to pull the reins out of your hands. And that if you can make him afraid to pull down, the problem will go away. That is what most people think. That is why they have the problem.

You won't fix it til you change how you think about it. The problem won't go away til you change your thinking.

The horse does not want to go forward and face the bit.

I can't think of anything I'd want to do less than putting a sharper bit on a rooter. He's ALREADY not going forward and facing the bit properly, if i do that, i'm going to make him worse, he'll be less forward and face the bit even less. He'll wind up a 'photic head tosser' that is going even LESS forward.

Just go forward, don't lengthen the reins and don't brace your hand on the saddle - that makes it worse.

This will never be corrected by doing something forceful with the reins or using a sharper bit.

Every time he roots down, give him a sharp, strong leg aid and make him zoom forward.

The old masters didn't say 'Forward and Out of Trouble' for nuthin'.

If you do this promptly, strongly and immediately, and it doesn't work, I'll send you fifty dollars and a DVD of Nuno Olivera.

[MoonPie730]

You haven't yet changed the way you think about this problem. you're still thinking that the horse roots in order to pull the reins out of your hands. And that if you can make him afraid to pull down, the problem will go away. That is what most people think. That is why they have the problem.

You won't fix it til you change how you think about it. The problem won't go away til you change your thinking.

The horse does not want to go forward and face the bit.

I can't think of anything I'd want to do less than putting a sharper bit on a rooter. He's ALREADY not going forward and facing the bit properly, if i do that, i'm going to make him worse, he'll be less forward and face the bit even less. He'll wind up a 'photic head tosser' that is going even LESS forward.

Just go forward, don't lengthen the reins and don't brace your hand on the saddle - that makes it worse.

This will never be corrected by doing something forceful with the reins or using a sharper bit.

Every time he roots down, give him a sharp, strong leg aid and make him zoom forward.

The old masters didn't say 'Forward and Out of Trouble' for nuthin'.

If you do this promptly, strongly and immediately, and it doesn't work, I'll send you fifty dollars and a DVD of Nuno Olivera.

What you are saying actually makes a lot of sense given that I am also having a hard time getting her forward. I will go try that and let you know how it works out.

[slc2]

:)

[CatOnLap]

so, you actually GOT that Nuno vid, Sus?

[Carol O]

I like to think about it as riding the shoulder. Using the outside rein to influence the outside shoulder, to push the shoulder, as it were...

[Kathy Johnson]

If you do this promptly, strongly and immediately, and it doesn't work, I'll send you fifty dollars and a DVD of Nuno Olivera.

LOL. One major difference between hunter/jumpers and dressage is that we let our horses stretch, really stretch. In the walk it's called free walk. In the faster gaits it's called long and low or the stretching circle.

Your horse, as he learns to come on to the bit, is contracting muscles all along his topline. If you don't let him stretch, pretty soon, he's going to pig root, in order to stretch himself. As slc says, it's not very productive, especially when it's his idea, not yours.

It will take six weeks or more to build his muscles correctly. During that time, take more walk breaks and let him stretch, on the buckle, way more often. You will notice that the better he is working up and on the bit, the lower he will stretch. That's good, as it increases the range of motion in his muscles.

The idea is to prevent the pig rooting by allowing him to stretch BEFORE he feels the need to take things into his own hands (or more accurately, to take things out of yours).

If he snatches the reins BEFORE you allow them out, then ride him just as slc says, as a correction. You two just need to get on the same page.

Have fun, and enjoy the transformation in your horse.

[BaroquePony]

I agree with everything that Kathy Johnson said, especially if it is a matter of not allowing your horse to reach and stretch every ten to fifteen minutes.

Many horses begin "rooting" because the riders hands are not yet steady.

[slc2]

The 'down' type movement is not the horse attempting to stretch and does not benefit and does not result from the horse not being allowed to stretch. If they want to stretch, they tug at the reins and try to lengthen their frame correctly. This is different, and the only way to fix this is to go forward.

This develops muscles incorrectly, like a horse being rollkured. You see the rhomboideus cervicalis developing a tight, hard lump and bulging upward from the normal muscles.

This is not the horse trying to stretch.

[Kathy Johnson]

In my experience a rooter is usually a horse with an undeveloped topline, as this one sounds. It is very often a horse who has been blocked from stretching or who was never stretched correctly and is making a rude attempt to change something. Having corrected about 500 children's horses who did this, I can say with some certainty that much of the behavior disappears if the horse is allowed to stretch more frequently. In the same way that collection and extension are intertwined, so are on the bit and stretching. If you start one, you need to be sure to do the other.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

The outside leg "behind the girth" asks the horse to bend the haunches inward to compliment the "outward" bend of the ribcage that comes from using the inside leg "on the girth".

Outside leg should be slightly behind the girth, and very passive, not actively asking the haunches to go to the inside - just preventing them from falling out.

You shouldn't have to push your horses' haunches in to just have the spine be aligned on a curved line - that usually means the horse isn't actually bending around the inside leg, instead they are swinging their body away from it. Too complicated. A horse who bends properly doesn't need to be pushed on the inside, and the outside, at the same time, to be aligned.

[MoonPie730]

Okay. A little update. So my the problem is with my boyfriend's horse, Penny, she is the rooter. I rode her today and started pushing her forward when ever she rooted and she stopped the rooting almost completely.

It never occured to me to let her stretch her neck when I give her a walking break, I will try that and I will let her have more breaks.

Penny has a very undeveloped top line and she has always been allowed to go the way she pleases. Her neck is completely upside down. She really resists any contact with the hands.

She was also "chomping" on the bit most of the time I rode her today. We have had her teeth checked recently. Is this normal? Do I need a flash? Right now she is in a french link, I ride my horse in a loose ring snaffle. Should I switch her to that?

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by MoonPie 730:

Penny has a very undeveloped top line and she has always been allowed to go the way she pleases. Her neck is completely upside down. She really resists any contact with the hands.

Here is your culprit.

It is uncomfortable for them to be ridden where they get the upside down neck ... it also goes with having a "hollow back".

The french link sounds good.

She may root less if you don't put the flash on.

She has learned to get away from pain and discomfort by taking the reins back "her way".

Going forward and giving her breaks will help alot.

Whoever was riding her may not have relaized that they were makng her so uncomfortable.

[MoonPie730]

Here is your culprit.

It is uncomfortable for them to be ridden where they get the upside down neck ... it also goes with having a "hollow back".

The french link sounds good.

She may root less if you don't put the flash on.

She has learned to get away from pain and discomfort by taking the reins back "her way".

Going forward and giving her breaks will help alot.

Whoever was riding her may not have relaized that they were makng here so uncomfortable.

Okay then I will just keep doing what I am doing and add breaks. It really helps to get a better understanding of what "inside leg to outside" hand is and I love hearing the different perspectives/definitions of it that people have.

Yes, my boyfriend learned to ride about a year and a half ago and I am not really sure how the people rode her before we had her, though she came to us with an upside down neck.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by MoonPie 730:

though she came to us with an upside down neck.

It can take a bit of time. Those muscles can build up and riding her forward and onto the bit or even just a nice forward light contact with breaks will help her a lot.

[Sabine]

to take this to the next step- we do this inside leg to outside rein stuff mainly to get the horse truly straight- tracking up into a soft EVEN contact. One other thing to keep in mind- if you have acquired a more 'dressagey seat' is to mentally connect your reins to the rear legs of the horse- in other words- feel with your butt when the rear moves up and connect the rein to that leg- in another very fine way this will help straighten and connecting the horse properly...just another technique to add to the variety...;)

[Kathy Johnson]

She was also "chomping" on the bit most of the time I rode her today. We have had her teeth checked recently. Is this normal? Do I need a flash? Right now she is in a french link, I ride my horse in a loose ring snaffle. Should I switch her to that?

Yes, this is normal. As you ask her to flex in the poll, she will compress the salivary glands, located high behind her jaw. As those glands are activated, the horse chews and relaxes the jaw when she is actually swallowing the extra saliva. It is considered a good thing, and by the end of the ride, she might have a nice line of "white lipstick." If it is even on both sides, you are doing a good job.

Horses just learning to go from inside leg to outside rein and learning to bend might chomp more than we would normally want, but I would encourage it, not discourage it. First we must relax the jaw. A flash or a stronger bit might lock the jaw again, and you will be back where you started.

It sounds like you are doing good work. BaroquePony is right. With an upside down neck (and it's follow along friend, the hollow back) it will take at least 6 weeks of right riding to see a major difference as you develop more muscles. To build more muscles, they must both contract and expand, which is why it's so important to stretch the horse. This is the real reason drawreins and other gadgets don't work long term--they only contract the muscles but block the horse from stretching them.