How would you approach this problem? Long and frustrating....

[Auventera Two]

I've written a lot about my Arab mare over the last couple of years but we're having a very frustrating problem that I can't seem to get her over. I have to admit I've reached the "Help I'm Desperate" stage. :(

5 years old - endurance horse - very sweet, intelligent and human-oriented horse. Very easy to train, very smart, catches on to stuff in about 3 repetitions, extremely sensitive, reactive, and spooky.

Turn out 24/7

Feed - no-molasses beet pulp, pasture, some alfalfa and grain - relatively hard keeper.

95% of everything she does is great. She hardly ever refuses anything - she goes down the trail like a real trooper - she's very athletic and dedicated - LOVES to work.

The problem? SPOOKING when on the trail alone - particularly at the canter.

This is a mare who can behave A++++ 110% at endurance rides when on trail with other horses - gallop across wide open fields and roads - leave the start line in the front position at a canter - NO PROBLEM! Canter past every manner of terrifying thing on trails she's never seen before. At a ride this spring, she even went down a scary set of steps built on the side of a hill with a creek at the bottom when the other horses refused it. We crossed 2 skinny bidges that would terrify most horses. (Terrified me!)

But let us get separated from other horses and she's afraid of her own shadow. She has NEVER bucked or purposely done anything to get me off. The times I've fallen off from her spooks, she stands over me and waits - regardless of what the other horses are doing. Seriously. We're a team and we are really tightly bonded - I've had her since she was weaned and spent countless hours of time with her.

I had a nasty fall last week and I'm at my witt's end. I worked her at the walk and trot for several miles, doing lots of leg yields and circles, back up, lengthening and shortening the stride, etc. She was doing GREAT. Very focused, light, calm, and forward. I asked for a canter - we didn't canter 5 strides and she whipped a 180 and bolted so fast I was flat on my back on the rocks gasping for air and trying to feel my left leg. She spun back around and put her head down to sniff like - what are you doing down there mom?? She stood right by me as I recovered.

This is so incredibly frustrating because if there's another horse within seeing distance - in front - or behind us - she's a gem. But let everybody get out of site and it's all I can do to stay on her back because every leaf, shadow, twig, and little dark spot of mud is The Devil ready to suck the life out of her. I get the full out blows and snorts and running sideways and backwards, and neck so tight you could bounce a quarter off it.

My last endurance ride left me in tears. We were making awesome fast time - came into the vet hold in #2 position. But she took an extra couple minutes to pulse down so the rider we were with was out on trail before us. I had to extend my hold time by almost 30 minutes so I could ride back out on trail with somebody else who was behind me.

Am I just asking too much of a 5 year old? I'm stuck between - ride more and get her through it (wet saddle blankets), and quit asking so much of a 5 year old.

Everybody says - oh my god look what you can DO with her! I do stuff with her that some horses could never do. But then all I want is a simple canter out on the trail alone and she takes my life into her grubby little mitts.

I have a friend who says she couldn't canter her horse alone until the horse was 15 years old! Sorry but I just can't accept that kind of mediocrity from a horse. They need to be trustworthy at ALL times in ALL situations, PERIOD.

I took her to a mounted search and rescue work day with all kinds of obstacles and drills and stuff to do and she was an absolute STAR because she was surrounded by other horses! Ugh.

I never get on this horse's back until I've done a little ground work and I am 100% sure she is 100% focused on ME. She's just so hot and reactive, you don't take chances with a horse like that. And she WILL be 100% great. And I get on, and we walk and trot, and all is well, but that canter - look out. But again it's ONLY when we are ALONE on the trail, and I'm on her back. If I get off and walk beside her, she sighs and hangs her head down and plods along half asleep.

I'm exploring ulcer possibilities now. Any other ideas would be very much appreciated.

Her picture is in my profile if you want to have a look.

[Luckydonkey]

Is she pastured alone? Obviously she has some herdbound issues... I do not think you are expecting too much of a 5 yr old.

[Auventera Two]

She's pastured with 2 others. At home I can take her out away from her buddies and she never so much as looks back. She actually throws more of a fit when I turn around to head home because she doesn't want to go home! She wants to be on the trail, or out doing something, but she wants me to be on the ground beside her.

I can lead her away from home and lead her anywhere I want to go.

I've done a TON of turning around and riding her away from the other horses. She is pretty much ok with it but she gets spooky when they are out of sight. She doesn't call and act like she wants to get back with them, so much as she just gets afraid that the lions and tigers will grab her now that there aren't other horses to grab first.

The only time she displayed herd bound behavior (whinnying, nervous, looking, couldn't stand still) was when I took a buddy for her to an endurance ride, and I left the buddy at the trailer while I took her to the vet check. BAd idea - won't take a buddy to an endurance ride again!

[Huntertwo]

My mare was going through a *herd-bound* stage when she was pastured with a buddy to let the spring grass rest.

I can only tell you what worked for me. Lots and lots of side passing....
Circles and serpentines only hyped her up more on the trails.

Whenever she deviated from anything we were doing. Say we were walking and she decided to trot, I immediately side-passed her about 5-10 steps. Not meanly, not harshly. In fact I would even praise her when she was side passing. Then sternly told her "Walk". Even on a narrow trail this can be done.

By our second trail ride she realized it wasn't worth all that work and walked the entire ride. She walked quickly, but never broke into a trot;).

It just took a lot of quick acting consistency. Maybe you need to back up and just walk and trot for awhile??

[marta]

since my mare is just the opposite of yours - a gem alone and a nightmare with other horses.

however, my friend has a 17 yr old WB mare who to this day will not go out on a trail alone and when she's w/ other horses she has to be right behind them and if left too far behind has a meltdown. friend tells that many trainers tried to reform this mare so that she could go out alone on trails but that they all failed. she's apparently gotten better over the years. she used to kick out at her own shadow on the trail, doesn't do that anymore, but is very cautious and constantly focused on a possibility of a gremlin leaping out at her.

could it be that some horses cannot be changed? i have no idea. but you're not alone in your struggles.

[BuddyRoo]

Sounds to me like she just needs more confidence. What are YOU doing differently when you're out alone? I suspect a tad more tense?

She sounds a lot like my one mare....totally cool with another horse around, much much much less confident out on her own. She was never even ridden outside of an indoor arena til I got her. Have more work to do, but our opportunities to go out alone at this point are few and far between.

My other mare? Doesn't matter. Alone, in a group, whatever.

Difference?

My "bomb proof even if alone" mare was ridden alone. A lot. From the time I started her under saddle til now, the times she's alone on a trail far exceed the number of times she's been in a group. AND, she's the boss mare. Generally a very confident horse....still, I think a lot of that confidence comes from us having many miles under our belts together. I've had other people ride her who are less confident/novice types and she tends to be a little less brave--I suspect because the rider is signaling that THEY are nervous.

If I were in your shoes, I would be inclined to work more out alone. WT. Forget the canter for awhile. Spooky stuff at speed doesn't sound like fun. But my guess is that's just what is happening...you're a little nervy, she's worried, and all the confidence goes out the window.

I'm in the more wet saddle blankets camp.

[grandprixjump]

That is if you haven't already, if she is having sight difficulties, maybe she is a lot more confident when other horses are around and they are looking for the monsters, their reaction will warn her. But alone she doesn't have that extra warning and can't see the best.

[egontoast]

She's just so hot and reactive

Maybe that's who she is. You have continually bragged about this horse but she's like every other horse. She has strengths and weaknesses. Don't worry. Most people will brag about how fantastic their youngsters are until they reach a certain age where they start to think for themselves.


A 5 year old spinning and spooking when out alone is not unheard of, whether Arabian or wb or TB or Percheron. It's still a young horse which you say is 'hot and reactive'. You are just finding out that she is not perfect.

There are a few things that might be involved- breeding, temperament , trust of rider, health issues or feed issues. For starters you could stop the alfalfa (some horses react strongly to that) and add magnesium. I would try feed changes before investigating ulcers unless you have lots of money.

If the horse is fine with other horses but not fine alone with you, that might also give you food for thought. Perhaps you might do more solo training .

[Bluey]

When I was participating in endurance in Europe, ages ago, the rules were no horse could participate that was under six and many horses didn't start competing until older.
We started most arabians at four and did light trail riding the first summer, more the next summer and finally considered them mature enough at six to start them in competitions.
I am surprised you have been participating with a five year old.:confused:

Too bad you can't put her on cattle, because that will teach one not to worry about the world around her and overreact as she is doing.

There are a few horses so reactive and with little sense that they are really too dangerous to ride, are an accident waiting for a place to happen and someone, sometime, will get hurt.
I know a few ranch horses like that.

Be sure your filly is not like that, one of those that you know that, even if it happens rarely, when they act up, the consequences are serious.
Only the best cowboys get to ride those and it is not if, but when they will be hurt by those super spooky and very athletic horses.

Your mare may be like that, or maybe just need a little more maturing.
Five tends to be when most horses assert their real personality as they finally mature unto themselves.
Sometimes those hijinks are temporary and they give them up as time passes by.

How about supergluing your britches?;)

[marta]

in usa, under aerc rules to compete in 50 miles or up the horse must be 60 months old (5 years) and to compete in limited distance, 48 months old (4 years).

[katarine]

I tell my SO about young horses and how to me, at first they internalize what's happening, there's so much to process and think about ...you can steal those early rides. Later, they get OK with all that malarky on their backs and balance you easily w/o thinking...then they start looking around and getting the looky loos. That's when you get lawn darted, they've quit thinking about you as this new thing and started thinking about what it is that's going on around them. That's when it can get a little western.

I recall a conversation on this board about making a hotter/forwarder/eager-er, LOL horse...walk and be at least moderately respectful about that request to walk even when the trail is wide open ahead of you. You sorta/kinda dismissed it at the time w/ regard to your mare, writing it off as well I want to trot on or canter in the fun bits too, and I don't want to fight her for mile after mile- having her pull on you. Within that dismissal is a possible key to the kingdom. I'm going to hazard a guess she's broke when she wants to be, and doesn't respect your aids as she should, and doesn't know to look to your legs/body/position for cues like she should. You are missing clues from her about her getting worried - better word- distracted- and she's dumping you in a moment of lost faith. Get that mare BROKE. Broke to whoa and fast. from any gear and now and yes ma'am what's next. Broke to shifting her hips at a trot when she's out solo, doing simple lead changes every 10 strides or so. Get her mind on you, just you, dependent on you and listening to you. I think you've enjoyed her energy and forward and fun but you are paying the lawn dart bill c/o her not respecting her job is to stay between your legs.

[BuddyRoo]

Just wanted to pop back in and mention that she's only 5. So even if you started her as a 2YO, you've really only had 2 solid years of riding. How much of that has been dedicated to solo rides? She's still a baby in my definition...there is much more to see, do and learn before you can expect her to be absolutely cool and calm in any situation.

I still think it's a confidence/miles issue....but I think that most horses...unless they've really had the snot ridden out of them or just naturally have a very laid back personality are going to be a little twitchy still at that age.

[LisaW-B]

I don't have any stellar advice, but I keep thinking of something John Lyons advocates: Ride where you can, and not where you can't. In the interests of safety and building her confidence, I'd go back to baby steps and make her "solo" rides as short as riding to the end of your driveway and back, or something similar (you know what I mean) and then building on that however gradually you need to. The horse doesn't know how short her solo rides are, and you're not letting her "win" or "giving up" or any other such nonsense by taking it back to baby steps, as long as she and you both are happy, confident and relaxed each time. You could also try riding her "out" alone for a very short distance, like to the end of the driveway, and then getting off and handwalking for a while. Stop, praise, hang out, graze, whatever, then either continue on, or head back home. The key is to keep her calm, and keep her from spooking if possible. It's the same idea as for a horse who's barn sour, but in your case, you're building her confidence in being alone and seeing "scary" stuff when alone. Another idea might be to take her hand-walking on the trails solo. You'll still build up her confidence, but if she spooks, you're already on the ground. There's also not a thing wrong with you getting off and choosing to handwalk her past anything you think might be questionable well before she spooks, then hopping back on once you're past "it." As long as the horse has a good experience, they do not learn any bad behaviors from something like that, as long as the stopping was YOUR idea. Eventually you won't need to get off. Ultimately, some horses will always do better than others when they're alone, depending on their personality, but you can do a lot toward giving her more confidence, by keeping it short and simple. Just my own experience with pleasure trail riding!

[2Jakes]

Use the canter when you can do it safely (with other horses in sight) and stick with WT when you are out alone.

Jake went thru a "stage" when he was a *turn and burn* expert, which was especially likely when we were out alone. (It's amazing how fast they can 180 and bolt!) He just needed time to build up his confidence, but I wondered about his temperment, eyesight, and about every other thing listed so far. I wondered if he'd *always* be that way (yikes!) and if he'd *ever* stop looking for monsters. He can still be a looky-loo but now his brain continues to function. Now it is "see scary thing...focus...evaluate a moment...move along". Used to be "see scaRUN AWAY!"

When your girl sees stuff (or thinks she does) it takes her a little time to process it, maybe at the canter her brain can't keep up with her feet so instinct takes over. It sounds like your mare is otherwise doing GREAT for being a tender 5 years old. Try not to dwell on what she doesn't do so well yet...she is amazing...take it easy when you're out alone and let her gain her confidence. Trying to ride her thru this before she is confident is setting both of you up for tension and not so happy trails.

Ride safe.
Lisa

[Over the Hill]

I'm sorry. . . :no:

I have an OTTB like this. He NEVER could be alone. He's still here, 20 years later, enjoying his retirement because no matter what I did, no matter who trained or rode him, no matter which discipline, he was totally unreliable alone.

I could not sell him for fear that someone would seriously get hurt riding him.

And, 20 years later, he still does not like to be turned out alone. He's not really buddy or barn sour, just cannot stand to be alone.

I hope you can work through this with your mare.

[yellow-horse]

she sounds great, heres my take, since you can walk and trot her alone i don't think it's a herd bound issue, since she can canter when she's in sight of other horses, i don't think it's a problem she has cantering, this leaves one thing i can think of, there's something you're doing that makes her upset when you're cantering alone, or not doing, i am getting the sense that when cantering alone you're lsoing her confidence, if she's with other horses she makes up for it by relying on them, so i'm thinking maybe you're not riding her enough or overiding her when you canter her, if she's with another horse she probably fills in for you, but on her own, she's not getting the confidence she needs
now the idea for you is to figure out are you dropping her and leaving her on her own to sort things out or are you tensing up and over riding her so she gets worried, you know the horse, what kind of ride does she need from you
bear in mind i could be wrong

[Thomas_1]

You've got the horse going out and that's good but she's not happy going it alone and I'd suggest you take it back to basics. I don't know how you actually started yours and it may be that you've done what I'm going to suggest.

Opinions are divided on how to get youngsters started riding out and used to usual hazards etc and some folks prefer to take them out with older and more confident horses. I'm wondering if that's what you might have done. I've posted before about this and to the effect that I'm completely against that. Too often the other horse becomes an emotional crutch for the rider and the youngster and in my experience it just doesn't work well and all too often leads to the sort of problems you're now describing. So I never actually start a youngster with another horse at all - no matter whether its a riding or driving horse and even though I drive multiples and said horse might be intended to drive in a pair or team.

Of all the difficult horses I've had to train, I've never met one that won't go out with others. But refusing to go out alone is very common as is showing signs of stress and lack of confidence when other horses go out of sight.

IMO its caused by a horse being in the habit of following somebody else. I prefer to avoid the problem because I know as a herd animal its going to be inclined to go with others. Getting it to go alone is what it needs to be trained to do from the start.

So I want mine to take a lead from me as the rider/driver so that it develops confidence in me.

Now I do this by longreining first and rather than avoiding hazards I go to find them and even create them. Then only when the horse is longreining out well and relaxed and confident and responding to voice commands, I do the same under saddle. I start with small trips and then increase the distance as the horse becomes more confident.

When faced with the big scary thing then you need to stay as relaxed and confident as possible. I recommend singing or even just talking away to the horse or even tell it off .... It helps you relax and I'm convinced if you are singing, talking or telling it off that its thinking "can't be anything to be worried about then!" If its had good longreining then it should by the time its under saddle, be listening to your voice commands so use your voice. Its one of the best aids you have.

Never shorten your reins...... Ensure you develop the reflex action of relaxing the reins if the horse is tense. Use a neck strap until she's more predictable. It will help you to stay on without doing anything with the reins. Don't grip with your legs and get the horse to respond to the voice.

And sit tight to help the horse to maintain balance. You might also want to shorten your stirrups a hole so your more stable - I'm assuming you're riding English saddle??

I'm thinking its happening at canter because you are slightly unbalanced or perhaps gripping or with a little tension which will "prompt" the flight and fright response.

In effect you need to break down this fright and flight instinct and get her to trust you. If she does do a spook and skoot then let her and indeed push her on to a few strides of canter and only then sit back and ask, ask, ask to come to a trot and with an exaggerated rise. If she doesn't respond just sit tight for a few more strides and ask again. They don't normally want to go on for long.

(I'm presuming here that you're not taking her out on roads whilst she's doing this and hence you've got the space to let her run on a little.)

If she's refusing to go by things or spooking past things in the hedgerows or trees then I use the "flicked rope" technique. With youngsters just starting, rather than a schooling whip, I take a length of soft rope and flick the horse across the shoulders to encourage forward.

[equinelaw]

You rhorse sounds just like all my friends youg arab endurance horses. Very smart and very fit. She may just do it becuase its fun. Can you ride her in a western saddle for awhile and not fall off?

Its not as much fun for them if you don't fall off and keep making them behave. Its just hard to stay on when you are out ona skinny littel mountain trail.


They seem to get bored very easily and when they are so fit you can't ride them down. . ever.

My friend got some results by spending time leanring how to really train a horse on the flat and not just judging them by how well they worked in a group trail situation.

She whined and moaned about how boring "ring work" was, but she had much better luck with a really well trained horse then when they seemed really well trianed becuase tehy played along when they wanted to and played more dangerous games when they didn't.

Most other young arab endurance horses would be fine for X months and then they always hit the same wall. And the friend hit the ground.

[tkhawk]

Just a thought -how do you feel when cantering alone? You did mention the mare was fine walking and trotting alone. Do you tense up? Are you relaxed and quite. It is scary -when I first got my girl we were cantering which turned into a gallop and then something-maybe a rock(what is it with Arabs and rocks:mad:)-but she did a 180 and continued galloping the other way-I am not sure how I managed to stay on but scary.
But if your mare is ok WT alone-then canter should not be a major concern-unless she/you haven't done enough canter work and are not balanced. I love riding alone -all gaits but it took me a lot of time and miles-I probably did a year of just walk , trot and cantered only with my riding buddy ahead of me(she has this push button mare that wouldn't care if a bomb went off as long as she gets to eat!!). I was honest and she knew my fear(I had fallen off on another occasion and bruised my ribs while cantering her a few days after I got her)-so we just did canter slow stretches and slowly became aware of myself, my aids and body and relaxed. Now I do all gaits alone fine and can actually keep her at a slow-ok medium canter without turning to gallop.
A horse that is nervous going out alone will probably be nervous at all gaits-not just canter-unless of course you/she haven't done a lot of canter work .If a horse is nervous at walk I wouldn't even ask for a trot and same for trot-if he is acting up at a trot, I am not going to ask for canter. But your mare seems ok at WT by herself. Arabs do have very quick reflexes-so the quiter and more relaxed you are the easier it is-especially during faster gaits...
It could be a multitude of issues-it is hard to say without actually seeing the horse and rider and watching how they interact -but just a thought.....

[Appassionato]

Sorry you're having some problems. Riding can be frustrating at times. Been there.

First, I've *heard* of alfalfa making some horses nuts...is it worth trying ot eliminate/replace this in her diet? Just a thought...

Second, the spooking...I used to deal with this and frankly all that cured it was miles. I don't know if it was my OCD self that needed the miles, my crackhead horse that needed the miles, or both of us together needing the miles. In the end, it was that we both needed miles. But seriously, miles cured all. Not literal miles, but experience. That did not mean conditioning the same old field/pasture, or dressaging to death, or gymnastics out the yin yang...just riding. Also, once I could blow it off and not tense up like I used to, I could ride the spooks out much easier. And once I could ride the spooks out, I didn't notice them as much. Over time, the spooks lessened. Those lessons carried over onto the new crackheads I rode for folks...:lol:

Third, it's possible that she might be getting unbalanced while cantering along. That could be causing the accidents.

Fourth, and this is very personal, but it's possible that you two just don't fit. I mean physically. There are horses I flat out cannot post to for example. CAN'T do it. I actually sold a horse that could jump AND LAND from a 4' square oxer at the trot...why did I sell her? Her canter drove me NUTS. It physically hurt me to canter this horse. I have some physical limitations as to what I can stand, and stride is important to what I can take when it comes to sitting a trot/canter in non-gaited horse. It's what it is.

Best of luck to you A2, I hope you are able to find some answers!

[Dazednconfused]

IMO, she could be:

1) Slow to mature, or at least too slow to mature to match with your training program - I think expecting a horse to be perfect on the trail at five, let alone doing an endurance race, is quite a lot to ask of a lot of five year olds, no matter how fit or smart. Irregardless of that, it might just be too much for this five year old. I'd go back to basics and try other things with her for awhile, and revisit her endurance career in a few months.

2) May never be suitable for endurance/ctr/trail riding - some horses don't jump well. Some will never be good foxhunters. Some don't trail ride. Maybe she will make a better show horse. I used to show a gelding that was absolutely no fun to trail ride. He would spook at his own shadow. He had numerous national titles and he was a talented show horse. But he hated to be trail ridden and it was no picnic for the rider either. I don't see anything wrong with this - but I think it's better for the horse to tell you what he's good at and not force them into something they don't enjoy or are obviously not good at, within reason.

3) A phase she's going through, or at least has you figured out - particularly so if she's dumped you. Do you get back on right away and continue working? What about when she spooks? With some horses I had success with ignoring the bad behavior, sitting quietly and insisting upon forward very firmly. I guess you will have to determine for yourself if she is honestly afraid out there or if she's just BS'ing you. I suspect somewhere in the middle - true element of fear because of no security blanket of other horses, but also just because she's smart and has been past things time and time again, she thinks she can get away with it. In that case, she (and you) need many more wet saddleblankets as Appassionato suggests IMO.

[goeslikestink]

i am also in the thomas camp, as it is a common problem then day 3 if a youngster and to be broken or a rehab to be trianed whatever if its been backed ( youngster i do myslef or deb does) which is the easy part of the trianing as its the schooling that makes the horse do xyz

anyways i am out or shes out on the roads so horse sees a bit of life and its rather easy as the horse gets its vibes from you or if you like takes q's from you

if you are a confindent rider then the horse gains confidence if you not afreiad and treat things as a nothing then the horse does to- as he can feel your vibes he looks upto you as a rider-- so if a bird flew out the bush or plastic bag, or gigainatic lorry came past him what ever if you sit and stay calm then the horse does in uk its so important that the horse can go out alone and in traffic and not be afriad as unlike you with vast open spaces most in uk have to hack on some of the bissy roads to get anywhere ie like london in a city or if rural some nasty country lanes either way its risky but the horse must be obediant and listen to its rider

the spook-- as said before mosty when horses spooke its a rider error

why in your case -- 1st the horse is 5yrs so still ababy at heart and you have done so much to soon you expecting this little horse to xyz be sure you dont make her sour before her time

in each disipline-- the exercise or fitness programme if you like changes for the displine you doing same to with the feeding and routines but as theres always a but basic training doesnt

as thomas says with this horse bring it back to basics and start of in a school not a round pen-- as that will defeat the objective -- as not enough room nor space

so bring the horse into an areana if you havent got one then mark an areana out in a field or small paddock of at least 60 long by 40m wide having cones tyres or barrels as corners
and some wooden poles or planks to represent sides

then bring the little girl in to the arena and start in walk -- let her sniff her way around sniffing is good shows interest and not a scarey thing as in the horse is sniffing so might bolt
nope - its sniffs to take it in might snort but ride on

once shes wlaked around the arena a few times on her own, then praze her well with big pats an say good girl-- this enforces that she worked well on her own and she will get the vibe you pleased, continue walking halting and doing figures of eight and serpentines
then use all the walk paces ie free walk medium walk and extended walk then whilse at walk start doing the half halt stride------ in walk and do walk to half halt then halt.

the half halt stride is your best freind as it informs the horse something going to change
and it collects the pace - from say a faster one to a more collected one

its easier for the horse to learn it in down gears to halt as theres nowhere else to go but stop
once the horse has go it in her brian- then like i said use all the walk paces then mix with all the trot paces ie walk to trot, so it would be ie free walk half halt stride to medium walk half halt stride to working trot-- etc then introduce medium trot and extended trot
then move up into canter

as the horse is young - the canter stride should be done for the 1st time down or up the long side of the arena-- you can say prepare to canter at A-- top end in middle of the 40m
width of the arena-- so the horse goes into canter on the corner sit sit sit in and hold till
shes finishes down the long side to the other corner-- half halt stride and bring her back to trot at C oppersite A at the other end of the arena so its one good lenght of canter
half halt to walk half halt to halt- praze her like mad with load of scratches and cuddles
then repeat going up the areana on the other side-- then come across the school change the rein and repeat-- then praze then work the horse in trot to finish
and praze and put her to bed-- dont go over board let the horse sleep on it she will work it out in her mind that she got a huge rewards of kisses cuddles and pats for working well on her own

the next time she comes out do it again - so it becomes a rountine and that you can work on getting her to go around the complete areana on her own both ways
always start of in small tiny snippets with youngster so the info mation is easy to diegest when they at rest and in there own space ie when they sleep always end on a good note
and never ever get mad
if and its important it in doubt and not doing as requested then stop-- take a deep breath count to ten and then try again do not get off,do not try to continue as this shows the horse lack of confidence -- and it will go to pot

work the horse in trot by lenghtening and shortening your strides making full use of the areana so horse focused on forwards and learns to become balanced and using her hinds underneath her---- you must work from an independant seat -- which you will gain by doing these exercises- this one of yourdown falls as you dont at this present time hence why you fell off..
be light in the leg and soft in the hands-- dont be hand set or heavy
soft still and quiet-- so the mare is light and supply

once these have been done inside for a few days then do them outside the arena starting off around the farm so to encourage the horse out, then slowly move further away each day

sticking to a rountines is what horses love-- being confident is what they love

you fell off do not let that vibe of scaredin case i fall off again when iam out on my own type thing-- enter your head------ the horse has an cannning way to pick up that vibe
and will spook why-------
your telling it to-------- by your thought patterns-- horses have all there senses wheres we lost ours and the only ours comes into play if lost one ie -- deaf- you lip read, blind you use your ears and smell more

use your tones of voice as encouragement to the horse-- scold it if naughty praze it if good
dont be nampy pamby baby talk- horse see you as a muppet then talk to the horse as if you would to a mate

dont give the horse any reason to doubt you- doubts are a fear factor to a horse
confusion is a feat factor to a horse and so is hesitation

a horses thought in his mind is to flee if in doubt or confused or hesitation the 2nd is to advade------
ie spook rear buck or bolt nap etc etc

the horse is 5yrs old and personally your expecting and have done a lot with her before shes ready without giving a thought to the basic needs of training so you have a good obidiant horse-- shes young and she needs you to inform her well

she olny was doing what you told her to in your mind-- and body language
as the horse only learns from the human good or bad it learns from us

[goeslikestink]

the half halt for those that dont know how to perform one

start of in walk in an active walk in a striaght line with your legs close to your horse sides
but without actually pushing close your fingers on the reins and then soften immdeaitely so that theres no resistence to the horses mouth and at the same time push a littel firmer with both of you legs keep the contact with both reins to follow the movement the horse will you will feel the horse surge forward. to start with it takes a horse 3 or 4 strides to responsed to the checks with dinky fingers

it must always be a check never ever lead into the temptation to pull or hard pull or jab the horse

start 3/4 little finger checks with dinky fingers over 3/4 strides then over 2 then over 1
and eventually into the half stride no matter how long it takes
alway proceed a half stride with an active walk trot or canter or what ever
always try to mantian rtyhem and out line throughout the movement and be vigilent of any advasion which could be
if your horse lifts its head hs a hollow back, or shows other signs of discomfort its most probaably becuase your hands are set
as in rather than making the signal and following the movement in trot the movements the same again do it over 2/3 strides till mastered then do it in canter
start with check check check push push push over 2/3/4 strides
until you can go actively from a half stride

the practical side of this firendly pace along with trot is that the horse is fully balanced during different paces and change of pace is used and is one off ther basic movment in showing jumping which allow you to in form the horse as with any transition you are going to do something different - ie change of pace giving the horse a clear signal and direction

[WW_Queen]

FWIW, my 9 yo steady eddy (for the most part) has turned into a spookmonster. He was always the brave one, I could even take him for a walk hack, bareback, by himself, on the buckle! He has always been at "large" barns (ie, more than 10 horses on the property).

Now he's on a small property (4 other horses) and has done a 180. We can only travel about 20 metres before he flips out over a leaf on the ground, or a pole that is in a different spot than the day before. :rolleyes: I have a pretty sticky seat so we've only parted ways once, but otherwise my back is having a hard time absorbing those instant accelerator moments!

If her medical/diet situation checks out, then try something different! Is there a friend you could stable her with for a few months that has a larger herd then at your house?

At 5 years old she's still still learning....can you progressively introduce her to it? (ie, Day 1, hack with friend w/t, Day 2 work in ring on obedience w/t/c then walk hack, Day 3 hack w/ friend w/t, Day 4 ring obedience, w/t hack, Day 5 hack w/ friend w/t/c, Day 6 work alone/hack alone, Day 7 hack alone w/t, Day 8 ring work alone, day 9 w/t with friend and make her canter away alone, etc)

[greysandbays]

If this Arab has certain horses in her pedigree, I'd say she's being a fruit loop is imbedded in her DNA and she will stay that way.

I have one (and some of her like-minded relatives), and I thought it was a training issue, that somehow, I wasn't connecting with her inspite of all my best efforts. Until I realized every single one of her foals was as bad as she was, and the one sired by the stallion with similar pedigree was even worse. Other foals by that stallion from different bloodlined mares where also fruit loops. (There's a reason that mare was only allowed to have three foals and that stallion sired less than a dozen foals! And that NEITHER of them has any grand-foals!)

These horses are lovely physical specimens, total sweethearts to handle in their barnyard, and generally as long as they are with other horses they are a superb ride... But when asked to go out alone, they are fine for a few minutes, then out of the blue, over any fool thing that one should have the right to expect to NOT be a problem for a horse, Instant Brain Vaporization sets in and they are apt to any damn stupid thing. IF one has the luxury of a lot of open space without a lot of unpredictable traffic hazards, sometimes you can them line out and get going, as long as you can keep going, you might get a (somewhat brisk) ride out of them. There might be some bouncing sideways, but I havn't had any trouble staying with them. But any hold-up or slowing down to less than a brisk trot and it's Instant Idiot.

Ironically, when there is the rare real catastrophe, they seem to be able to do the ONE thing that would not be on the "Oh, I'm SO STUPID" list, but it's so g--d--- frustrating to have them not show one ounce of common sense the other 99.999999999999% of the time.

For years, I agonized back and forth between three outlooks:
1) This horse will be sooooooo wonderful if I can only manage the horsemanship skills and the circumstances to bring it out;
2) I'm doing fine, but this bloody horse can't quite seem to get with the program;
3) This horse is worthless to the core and is fit for nothing but dogmeat.

This mare and her relatives are just standing around eating me out of house and home, but they are all over twenty now, so maybe they'll start dying off...

There's so much talent and potential there, but it's all squandered because of the world's biggest brain flatulence problem.

OTOH, I have another mare, almost totally unrelated to the fruit loop clan who, when I first started her under saddle, spooked EVERY TWO SECONDS OF EVERY RIDE for months. They weren't big, dramatic spooks, just every time she caught site of ANYTHING slightly different -- a downed birch log beside the road, a funny clump of leaves off to the side, a chipmunk skittering in the leaves, a weed frond waving in the breeze, you name it -- she saw it, she got this "OMG what's that" spook-in-place. The only thing at all remarkable about her spooks was the vast number of times she managed to do it in each ride. I thought she was going to be a hell of a handful, but she snapped right out of it once we started taking longer rides. Apparently a bit of fatigue made her a lot more discriminating about what was worth spooking over.

In contrast, the orginal fruit loop mare started off so promising, almost no spook in her at all. Until at some point, when she realized what was going on, but even then, she never spooked at "things". She would just go psyco like somebody flipped a switch in her brain. Things that would spook an honest horse went completely unnoticed by her. It was my great fear that, when riding her along the road, she'd spook at a flower and leap right out in front of an oncoming semi.

[Dazednconfused]

If this Arab has certain horses in her pedigree, I'd say she's being a fruit loop is imbedded in her DNA and she will stay that way.

I have one (and some of her like-minded relatives), and I thought it was a training issue, that somehow, I wasn't connecting with her inspite of all my best efforts. Until I realized every single one of her foals was as bad as she was, and the one sired by the stallion with similar pedigree was even worse. Other foals by that stallion from different bloodlined mares where also fruit loops. (There's a reason that mare was only allowed to have three foals and that stallion sired less than a dozen foals! And that NEITHER of them has any grand-foals!)

These horses are lovely physical specimens, total sweethearts to handle in their barnyard, and generally as long as they are with other horses they are a superb ride... But when asked to go out alone, they are fine for a few minutes, then out of the blue, over any fool thing that one should have the right to expect to NOT be a problem for a horse, Instant Brain Vaporization sets in and they are apt to any damn stupid thing. IF one has the luxury of a lot of open space without a lot of unpredictable traffic hazards, sometimes you can them line out and get going, as long as you can keep going, you might get a (somewhat brisk) ride out of them. There might be some bouncing sideways, but I havn't had any trouble staying with them. But any hold-up or slowing down to less than a brisk trot and it's Instant Idiot.

Ironically, when there is the rare real catastrophe, they seem to be able to do the ONE thing that would not be on the "Oh, I'm SO STUPID" list, but it's so g--d--- frustrating to have them not show one ounce of common sense the other 99.999999999999% of the time.

For years, I agonized back and forth between three outlooks:
1) This horse will be sooooooo wonderful if I can only manage the horsemanship skills and the circumstances to bring it out;
2) I'm doing fine, but this bloody horse can't quite seem to get with the program;
3) This horse is worthless to the core and is fit for nothing but dogmeat.

This mare and her relatives are just standing around eating me out of house and home, but they are all over twenty now, so maybe they'll start dying off...

There's so much talent and potential there, but it's all squandered because of the world's biggest brain flatulence problem.

OTOH, I have another mare, almost totally unrelated to the fruit loop clan who, when I first started her under saddle, spooked EVERY TWO SECONDS OF EVERY RIDE for months. They weren't big, dramatic spooks, just every time she caught site of ANYTHING slightly different -- a downed birch log beside the road, a funny clump of leaves off to the side, a chipmunk skittering in the leaves, a weed frond waving in the breeze, you name it -- she saw it, she got this "OMG what's that" spook-in-place. The only thing at all remarkable about her spooks was the vast number of times she managed to do it in each ride. I thought she was going to be a hell of a handful, but she snapped right out of it once we started taking longer rides. Apparently a bit of fatigue made her a lot more discriminating about what was worth spooking over.

In contrast, the orginal fruit loop mare started off so promising, almost no spook in her at all. Until at some point, when she realized what was going on, but even then, she never spooked at "things". She would just go psyco like somebody flipped a switch in her brain. Things that would spook an honest horse went completely unnoticed by her. It was my great fear that, when riding her along the road, she'd spook at a flower and leap right out in front of an oncoming semi.

I completely agree with this. I would be curious to hear about the pedigrees on your "fruit loops" if you'd like to PM me.

I've looked up A2's mare before on the datasource and nothing jumped out at me about her pedigree as being particularly nutty. I'd also like to point out that crazy comes in all breeds, and crazy being genetic does too - there are plenty of very popular TB race sires that are known for producing nutty offspring for example, and I would wager most breeds out there have those "I'd never breed to that nutcase" stallions/mares too.

[goeslikestink]

ps av2 you dont do dressage remember this why you should- what i have described or tryed to is a basic triaining method so whatever you want to do with her is a foundation for any disipline- of your chosing of which should have been taught to the horse in the begining to learn to go forwards and focused on her own

[Daydream Believer]

A lot of my client owned breeding stock is Arabian and I hate to say that I do see that they are, in general, much more reactive and sensitive to the other breeds on our farm with a couple of exceptions (always exceptions). That said, I've had some wonderful Arabs in the past that were calm as any horse I've ever known. You could not give me some of the Halter bred Arabs...my two exposures to foals of that sort of breeding are enough to cure me of falling under the spell of their beauty...Handsome is as Handsome does... I will run in the other direction...

I do believe that certain tendencies are inherited and no amount of training can ever get it out of them 100%...the training can mitigate it to a huge degree but not eliminate it. It is very hard to know when that is the case or not until you try. Sometimes why you have tried everything you know to try, it's better to let a pro ride the horse for a bit. I had a TB years ago that bucked me off hard three times...I put a pro on him who got bucked off...who then got back on and kicked his butt and rode him for a few months...he never bucked me off again. It just took someone with better skills and experience than I had to fix him. He went on to do Rolex some years later with the person I eventually sold him to.

I really like Thomas' approach and I work a lot like he does when I get a baby that seems to be insecure. I head out alone from the start and do it long lining where I am a bit more safe until the horse gains more confidence. You do need to have them really well trained to it so you can control them in all situations but you really should do that anyway. It is a great tool.

Five is pretty young. There is a lot of mental maturing going on from that age to seven or eight. With enough time and getting her confidence built up, she may turn out to be perfect for you. There's just no way to know for sure.

Whatever you do, I hope it works out. I'm also glad you were not hurt badly.

[Dazednconfused]

A lot of my client owned breeding stock is Arabian and I hate to say that I do see that they are, in general, much more reactive and sensitive to the other breeds on our farm with a couple of exceptions (always exceptions). That said, I've had some wonderful Arabs in the past that were calm as any horse I've ever known. You could not give me some of the Halter bred Arabs...my two exposures to foals of that sort of breeding are enough to cure me of falling under the spell of their beauty...Handsome is as Handsome does... I will run in the other direction...

I do believe that certain tendencies are inherited and no amount of training can ever get it out of them 100%...the training can mitigate it to a huge degree but not eliminate it. It is very hard to know when that is the case or not until you try. Sometimes why you have tried everything you know to try, it's better to let a pro ride the horse for a bit. I had a TB years ago that bucked me off hard three times...I put a pro on him who got bucked off...who then got back on and kicked his butt and rode him for a few months...he never bucked me off again. It just took someone with better skills and experience than I had to fix him. He went on to do Rolex some years later with the person I eventually sold him to.

I really like Thomas' approach and I work a lot like he does when I get a baby that seems to be insecure. I head out alone from the start and do it long lining where I am a bit more safe until the horse gains more confidence. You do need to have them really well trained to it so you can control them in all situations but you really should do that anyway. It is a great tool.

Five is pretty young. There is a lot of mental maturing going on from that age to seven or eight. With enough time and getting her confidence built up, she may turn out to be perfect for you. There's just no way to know for sure.

Whatever you do, I hope it works out. I'm also glad you were not hurt badly.

I take care of a barn full of horses with halter breeding and they are quite easy to handle and sane. Sorry, but two horses out of the thousands out there is really not a good barometer of sanity IMO. Also, the OP's horse doesn't really have halter breeding anyway from what I remember.

I do agree with the rest of your post completely though. Well said.

[Bluey]

Reactive and sensitive horses can have good minds also to cope properly with their overstimulated bodies and minds.

Those that have a little loose screw and can't keep it together, those that are unpredictable, those are the ones that get people hurt.

Assess your horse to see which kind she is.

[Auventera Two]

Lots of stuff here to respond to and think about.

1. Somebody said the horse doesn't know how to whoa? Ha! She'll whoa on a dime and throw you up on your neck if you aren't ready for it! :lol: She goes in a hackamore or just a rope halter with reins and will stop at the slightest pressure, INSTANTLY. She wants contact on the reins though. I do let her go on a draped rein sometimes but she prefers that steady consistent contact that she can feel so she really knows you are there.

2. No, I did not start her as a 2 year old. I started her at 3 1/2 very lightly, didn't do any real riding until she was 4. So she's very much still a baby, I think.

I would say her time on the trail has been divided as follows: 25% riding alone, 25% riding in a big group, and 50% riding with one or maybe 2 other horses. Clearly we just need more alone miles, I guess.

3. She is NOT a crazy horse, or a fruit loop or a lunatic, or whatever people have said or implied here. She is a very sane and intelligent horse capable of doing a LOT of stuff. She just gets nervous when on the trail alone, riding - at the canter. Ocassionally at a fast trot, but generally the walk and trot are A+ while alone. She will tie anywhere, kids have messed all around her and groomed her. She'll pretty much just go to sleep as long as someone is messing with her. :) She'll go through or under or over just about anything. It's just this one issue we have to work through.

I've been told by 3 long-time endurance competitors that she's a REALLY phenominal horse who will go to the top of this sport barring any physical problems.

One of the high point champion riders in our region is going to ride her on a couple of LDs while his horse is down with an injury. When I offered, he jumped at the chance, and is really excited about the opportunity. If she was a raving lunatic, I doubt an accomplished endurance rider would accept the offer? And yes, he's been on the trail with her! :)

An endurance friend of mine had me pony her baby green bean who was spooking and jumping out of his skin, on a trail ride. My Arab was the babysitter and did an A+++ job! She let the young guy buddy up beside her and we worked at a good hard trot for a 1 hour conditioning ride. If he jumped a little, she just trucked on at a working pace and kept him calm.

She is NOT a stupid unsafe horse.

4. I've been riding for 25 years and have no fear of riding alone - not even on this horse. No fear of going fast. I was jumping 3'6" when I was 14 years old. I've started a lot of babies - I've always been the one to get on problem horses, or babies for their first few rides. There's not much that scares me. And neither does this horse scare me at all. We just need to figure out why she's spooking at the canter while alone and fix it. I'm desperate to get this problem fixed but I ride the horse just the same.

5. I'm going to make an appt. today for an eye exam. I ordered a calming supplement that is legal. I stopped the alfalfa.

6. No, I don't believe she's a "ring horse" only. She hates the arena and makes it apparent with tail shwishing and lackluster attitude.

Things will improve, I just wanted to vent and get some fresh ideas. She's a really fantastic mare with a good brain. I've turned down rides on 2 young horses because I felt they were too stupid for their own good. I've turned down horses to buy because they were too stupid for their own good. I won't deal with stupid, unsafe horses and horses that have no respect for humans don't have a place in my barn. All 3 of my mares are exceptionally well behaved on the ground and in the saddle.

I do mounted search and rescue and mounted patrol with one of my other mares so good manners and being able to do ANYTHING I ask is REALLY high on my list. I've taken this mare to a workday already and she did great. She will eventually be certified and be able to replace my QH as she is retired. Obviously that's a few years yet, but the point is, I work with this horse a LOT to make sure she is safe, sane, and willing. And she is.

The spooking only while cantering while alone is the one issue I need to iron out with this horse, and I believe we will, but it just might take some time and experimenting.

Thank you everyone for the ideas!

[CatOnLap]

No, I did not start her as a 2 year old. I started her at 3 1/2 very lightly, didn't do any real riding until she was 4. So she's very much still a baby, I think.
Elsewhere and in the past you say you've been riding her more than 2 years and that she was saddle broke at 2.

If what you are saying now is closer to the truth, only 1 1/2 years under saddle, and as you say, the first year was very lightly, so it's really only been a year in training. What are you expecting?

She needs more miles.
Alone.
And more time to finish growing up.
And lots of practice- alone- on familiar trails at the gaits you desire.
And you must never let your attention wander. You must ride every stride so you feel the tensing that precedes the spook and can distract her from it/prevent it/keep her too busy doing something else to spook.

Unfortunately there is no quicker fix than that unless you drug her.

[Auventera Two]

I have NEVER said I broke this horse at 2! I have another mare that was broke at 2 - a QH. Not this Arab. She is almost 5 1/2 so that means she's been undersaddle about 2 years - 3 1/2 to 5 1/2.

I sat on her back for a few minutes, a few times when she just turned 3. My mother held her head and let her graze in the yard while I sat up there for 5 minutes then slid down. But she wasn't trained to do anything until about 3 1/2.

And sorry - drugs aren't an option.

[seabreeze]

If I were in your shoes, I would be inclined to work more out alone. WT. Forget the canter for awhile.

Walk and trot 'til you're bored...'til you can't stand it anymore...'til you just have to canter because you're so confident that it was so long ago that you are feeling good about it.

Just wanted to pop back in and mention that she's only 5. So even if you started her as a 2YO, you've really only had 2 solid years of riding. How much of that has been dedicated to solo rides? She's still a baby in my definition...there is much more to see, do and learn before you can expect her to be absolutely cool and calm in any situation.

I still think it's a confidence/miles issue....but I think that most horses...unless they've really had the snot ridden out of them or just naturally have a very laid back personality are going to be a little twitchy still at that age.

My experience with Arabs (which was all I was around growing up until I was in my 20's) has taught me that they are a bit slower to mature than other breeds. What you might typically expect--maturity-wise (not physically)--from a five-year-old Arab is what you'd see in a 2-3 yo horse of another breed. Perhaps that is just my experience...others might want to chime in.

[CatOnLap]

ah. Forgive me for thinking the horse was born in spring and not January/03. So this horse was started at age 3 1/2, lightly ridden for the first year until age 4 1/2, yet was ready for her first big long distance ride at 4 1/2, last June/07? You've posted before how it takes months to get a horse legged up for such a ride. I didn't know "light riding" could prepare a horse for endurance at 4 1/2. Thanks for the enlightenment! I really don't know about endurance. I am only a lowly trail rider.

But, you posted you were having similar problem with this horse almost a year ago ( Nov/07), when you said she would plant on the trail and just not move for 10-15 minutes. She's progressed from there, maybe not in the way you hoped.

You were posting in April this year how you had solved those problems and advising another person how to do it. You went on at some length describing your methods to cure a horse that won't go on its own, IIRC. Considering how much training you've described with this mare since she was a weanling, ponying, handwalking, "G.R.O.U.N.D.W.O.R.K." as you spelled it out for that poster, and then saying about the miles and miles you've put under saddle, and really it sounds as if the problem is getting worse, not better.

As others have said, it might be time to reconsider the suitability, as it sounds like she does have a problem with going alone that your best efforts have not fixed in over a year of concentrated work. Well, lets say 5 years, since you've been working alone with her since she was a weanling.

PS: personally I wouldn't give up on it yet. I don't think she's developed her mature brain yet and that may not come until 8. I would work her alone as much as possible, as I described before, but it is safer to do it in hand, or at walk/trot, to avoid the lawn dart syndrome...

[Daydream Believer]

I take care of a barn full of horses with halter breeding and they are quite easy to handle and sane. Sorry, but two horses out of the thousands out there is really not a good barometer of sanity IMO. Also, the OP's horse doesn't really have halter breeding anyway from what I remember.



I have to laugh as I've known three "halter bred" Arabs now and all three were/are very difficult to handle for routine stuff. One was the mother of the most psycho foal I've ever seen and I'll PM you his sire's breeding if you want to know who it was. Easy to handle nor calm does not begin to describe these horses. Their owners tell me that is "halter" bloodlines and they are "all" like that. Honestly, I would not know otherwise so I'm glad to hear that is not so. :)

Thankfully the other ones are all Pure Polish performance bred horses and we stand a former well known stallion here that was US Top Ten in his heydey (Europia)...so I am pretty familiar with some of these bloodlines and this type of horse.

[wateryglen]

My old fieldhunter did this for a coupla years when he was younger and eventually grew out of it. I figured out what tended to precipitate it eventually. Things like: wind conditions, his fitness, his freshness, and most important - the canter tends to jazz him up (draft/tb cross) and get him excited. So? The extended trot became our working gait when I thought this might happen. I'd choose more carefully when/where I cantered him. Galloping always gotta buck outa him!

I agree with the previous posters that it's mostly a mileage thing and age thing. Some horses lack confidence.

[saratoga]

I havent read everyone's posts, but I do think 5 is super young to be mature and sensible. My Arab mare is 7 and getting to be a lot more sensible and ridable now. I would take her "formative years" doing a lot of SLOW trail work, slow LDs, arena work, etc.

I agree with what someone said about how in your previous posts you talked about how this mare does not want to walk or go slow and you go along with it. I think this is a SERIOUSLY bad idea. Also, you've mentioned you are Top Tenning now with her. Going fast is not a good idea either, IMO, physically but also mentally. She can have all the talent in the world, but at 5, I wouldnt think she is truly physically ready to race and going fast can BLOW some horses' minds. I have seen it time and time again. I know a lady with a 20 year old Arab that still acts like a hyped up 4 year old, basically because she never learned how to properly ride and just put up with this behavior. Not saying this is the case with you but it could be. I wouldnt brag about Top Tenning LDs with a 5 year old.

My endurance gelding does happen to be very spooky. I have never let him go very fast or get out of control though, but at home, not at endurance rides, he is extra spooky. I do not canter him a lot at home on the trail unless the edge is off of him first because I know he is very likely to shy hard at the canter. When we do canter, I ride very defensively, I sit back, use a lot of leg and I'm pretty ready for a prop or spook.

[saratoga]

I
I've been told by 3 long-time endurance competitors that she's a REALLY phenominal horse who will go to the top of this sport barring any physical problems.

One of the high point champion riders in our region is going to ride her on a couple of LDs while his horse is down with an injury. When I offered, he jumped at the chance, and is really excited about the opportunity. If she was a raving lunatic, I doubt an accomplished endurance rider would accept the offer? And yes, he's been on the trail with her! :)
!

Also, some endurance riders who Top Ten (not saying ALL of them by any means) ride horses that are fast and talented but not necessarily well broke. One lady I knew just about always Top Tenned and when she moved to my area, we went on some conditioning rides together. I assumed that she was a really good rider since she was always Top Tenning and was often in the regional standings. I was really surprised to find that she was actually very timid- she used a sidepull, her horse was pretty much out of control and she was afraid to trot fast or canter at home. I got the feeling she just her horse rip at endurance rides and held on. She ended up getting in a few wrecks, breaking her collarbone and then her arm, and isnt doing endurance now.

Again, not saying your friend is like that. But some of them are.

[mp]

Also, some endurance riders who Top Ten (not saying ALL of them by any means) ride horses that are fast and talented but not necessarily well broke. One lady I knew just about always Top Tenned and when she moved to my area, we went on some conditioning rides together. I assumed that she was a really good rider since she was always Top Tenning and was often in the regional standings. I was really surprised to find that she was actually very timid- she used a sidepull, her horse was pretty much out of control and she was afraid to trot fast or canter at home. I got the feeling she just her horse rip at endurance rides and held on. She ended up getting in a few wrecks, breaking her collarbone and then her arm, and isnt doing endurance now.

Again, not saying your friend is like that. But some of them are.

Ding-ding :yes:

The most successful endurance rider I know is not what I'd call a finesse rider. Not as bad as the one you rode with, but her mechanics could use a little work and her horse isn't what I'd call "broke."

OP, I liked katarine's advice -- your horse is young and she's just getting to where she can deal with you AND all the interesting things around her. Keep occupied, ride every step and quit before she loses her mind.

[Auventera Two]

Thanks again for the thoughts!

No, she would prefer not to walk if given the chance to do something else. She'd rather trot or canter if given the chance. What I've said is that I don't fight her to force her to walk on the trail when we are with other horses. We get in a working trot or a canter and really work. When I ride alone, I mostly walk and slow trot and also she is much less forward.

She's not out of control on the trail. Her preferring to go fast does not equal being out of control. It just means that she's constantly asking me "Can we go, can we go, can we go?" If I tell her no, she'll do what I ask. She's very good about footing too and is very careful through tricky stuff, going as slow as she needs to. There's no place for crazy out of control horses on the trail. If she were crazy and out of control, I wouldn't take her off my farm until it was fixed. But that's not the case. She is a really hot, really energetic, and really forward horse - yes. But she's controllable and well trained.

I have had some very good rides alone with her where she was very brave and bold, and some rides that weren't so good. That's just part of raising a baby.

I just wanted some ideas on the cantering alone thing. I've pretty much decided what path I'll take to start addressing it. I do think a lot of it is age. 5 is still a baby as far as I'm concerned, especially mentally. I've done groundwork with this horse until we're all groundworked out. But of course that's something you're still doing with 25 year olds. You never quit. But the implications that she's wild and crazy and has no training is just not true.

She just gets nervous when we are moving fast, and riding alone.

[hitchinmygetalong]

You've gotten a ton of great advice here, and I'm glad you have a plan. I do have a question, though. Perhaps you or another "endurance" person here can help explain something:



1. Somebody said the horse doesn't know how to whoa? Ha! She'll whoa on a dime and throw you up on your neck if you aren't ready for it! :lol: She goes in a hackamore or just a rope halter with reins and will stop at the slightest pressure, INSTANTLY. She wants contact on the reins though. I do let her go on a draped rein sometimes but she prefers that steady consistent contact that she can feel so she really knows you are there.



How do you half-halt a horse like this? I consider the half-halt to be one of the most important tools when I ride/drive. How do you half-halt a horse that stops instantly at any pressure?

[Kaeleer]

I was wondering the same thing as hitch, because IME with spookers (and my husband's horse is the king of spook, the easiest way to avoid a spook is to ensure that the horse is in front of your leg at all times, and the way to do that is to half halt.

How do you half halt this horse?

[hitchinmygetalong]

Thanks, gothedistance! Endurance sure is different!

[egontoast]

From the photos that have been posted and the threads that have been started about this mare's neck, topline and spooking, the horse has not learned to be on the aids. If the horse is hollow and building the wrong muscles in the neck and spooking you do not have the horse on your aids.

There is a difference between having a horse that will do as you ask as along as it wants to and a horse that will do as you ask because it is TRAINED to do so.

A2, you have often criticized dressage but a little dressage training may assist you in getting your horse trained, on your aids and therefore less likely to spook. It should have the added benefit of improving your horse's neck, which you have worried about, and her topline.

[saratoga]

Lots of stuff here to respond to and think about.

6. No, I don't believe she's a "ring horse" only. She hates the arena and makes it apparent with tail shwishing and lackluster attitude.
!

It sounds like you *should* work her in the arena. I know lots of trail and endurance riders dont like it but I think it is essential for EVERY horse. It is a great opportunity to work on your riding- your seat, your legs, your half-halts, your canter, making sure she is moving nicely with impulsion and not rushing, not pulling against you, etc. It is great because there are no distractions, and the fact that is is "boring" will help her to concentrate on you. And you concentrate on how your aids effect her. If she doesnt want to listen to you that much, and she "hates" it, tough crap!! I really think it will help you guys a lot.

[katarine]

This is a young, smart, full of beans mare. You can strike down drugs but allow supplements. Fine line there, LOL.
and...
I didn't say she didn't whoa :D. But...
you can't tell me she whoas well, does simple changes, etc, in a balanced way, alone, from/at a canter, while also saying she's unsafe at a canter, alone. A2 she's losing confidence in you and darting you at the drop of a leaf at speed. You might loathe that it's me saying it, lol, I can understand that...but she's broke when she wants to be and she is telling you in no uncertain terms it is not reasonable or realistic to take this particular 5 YO with 18 months u/s on her....to the 'horse show' which is what your endurance rides are...it's a competition. It implies she's ready to roll. But you can't leave the vet check til she's got a teddy bear for company! NOw that's OK...but live with those limits. So many trotting miles ALONE she's bored silly and honest. Short canters then good transition down to a trot, then up to a canter then down to a trot...LOL now loosen up and smile about that, it's jokingly said but it's true. She can't handle cantering alone for any distance and therefore the only real and honest way to teach her different is to ride her different- relaxed, good transtions up/down/up/down/up/simple change/walk/whoa/canter...get her mind busy with real work so she doesn't have the opportunity to make stuff up.

I'd love for you to be successful with her and I think you will be. She's cute as pie and very bright. You just ain't got her broke to being alone and honest. Don't beat yourself up about it, just work through it and make a game plan that includes less darting, more riding.

best wishes.

[grayarabs]

A2 - have you thought about clicker training? I bought the book, "Clicker Training for your Horse" by Alexander Kurland - specifically for trail riding. I had ridden dressage and trails for years - but new horse - rescue - no idea of his past history - very timid horse - and I was riding out alone. It has been awhile since I read the book (my health no longer allows me to ride out - o/w CT would be a part of our training) but seems to me there is a section on "settle down" - and/or "pay attention to me" - various things like that. I have read either there or elsewhere where CT helps on the trail. Even if you don't want to use CT the book is a good one to read - good stuff on how horses think/react.
This not clicker training - but just an example - I wanted to make sure I could stop new horse. Did work at the barn and then on the trail. I would say "whoa" and give him a piece of carrot. He learned that quickly. Came in handy on the trail - particularly coming home - I hoped he had not be allowed to race home. So I found a spot end of the trail - lovely area with tree canopies - and we always ended our ride there - I would say "whoa" - give carrot - still mounted - and then I would dismount and we would handwalk the short distance back to the barn. (to the point he would stop without me asking - waiting for his carrot - same spot - which for me was a good thing) (the gauntlet as I have called it - dogs everywhere - asphalt - I did not want to be mounted - terrified of accident on the asphalt - but that is just me). Anyhoo - I think CT would be such a useful tool in your situation - amongst other suggestions you have received. I know you and your mare adore each other - and you both are committed to trail work. Good luck!!! (P.S. Do you sit or 2-point the canter? I remember my dressage instructor advising me to sit - trot or canter - when my horse was being silly).

[jeano]

merely a lowly, non competetive trail rider with a couple of trashy cheep gaited horses....
Sadie was spooooooky when I got her, used to prop and spin and dumped me often. Would go out alone, but rushed, rushed rushed everywhere. I had her nearly a year before I could get her to go on a complete, hour or two long trail ride Just Walking.

Hawk, the TWH gelding I've had for a little over a year--shied (very politely, not big humoungous shies, sort of a little drifty sidewise thing) a lot at first, and pulled one spectacular spook at the canter which dumped me right now. ONLY time I've come off him.

Both these horses can spook in place now, no more dirty stops from Sadie, hardly ever a shy from the Hawk. My only explanation is that regular riding and no grain at all ever helped them get over it, that and age. Hawk was 6 when I got him, Sadie was 7 when I got her. And she hated me, too.

Either can be ridden out alone just fine and they are each others' best and only equine companions, unless you count the horses in the neighbor's herd. It didnt used to be safe to canter Sadie because it would turn into a runaway, its not a problem now. Hawk seems to have been ridden too much in an arena and had a really odd cranked around to one side canter with his head so oddly carried he couldnt see where he was going. Although his canter is still more rocking horse than I like, at least he can go straight now!

[birdsong]

Didn't read the other replies but wanted to offer this...I know that Arabs are such intelligent creatures and don't mentally mature til much older than other breeds. Gosh, I think she sounds like she is doing very well for just five. She might just need time to gain her confidence.

[Sithly]

In addition to the great suggestions you've already gotten, I think some dressage lessons will really help you. The extra training can only be good for you and your horse. Everything you do (correctly) with her will make her a better animal. That's why cross-training is so valuable.

Find a good instructor who can help you focus on your seat and really feel what the horse is doing. Also, don't canter when you are tired and loose in the tack.

And if all else fails, hire Shadow14 to lay her flat on her a** next time she tries to pull that crap. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tkhawk]

A good buddy would really help too. I did WTC on some tough horses before I got my mare and fell off at canter and bruised my ribs. After that I was not conscious of it, but I was just scared of cantering her. She was an ex-race horse-so she had a lot of go-but it really did not bother me before. On trail with her I was perfectly fine WT , but at canter-I really didn't realize it but I just went into fetal position and hung on and quit riding and I didn't even realize it. It took me almost a year of riding with a good riding buddy-good quiet rider and good horse to get over it. The kind who puts you at ease and doesn't yell at you on trail!!. Slowly a little canter at a time and a few unplanned gallops here and there, but I started becoming more aware of myself and the more I did , the more I relaxed. Once you are aware of yourself at the canter/gallop, how your body is positioned, how you are holding your reins and how fast/slow your heart is beating, then it is fine. You can deal with the spooks -a spook at canter is very different than one at walk. Mine has spooked jumped sideways and continued cantering without even slowing to trot. But if you are aware it is a lot easier to go with the horse and not be terrified and for me I am just getting to where I can catch them before she spooks. I still miss some but it does not bother me too much and we move on. I actually prefer canter-my mare is very smooth-she has a beautiful floaty trot and I am not too fond of posting or two pointing a couple of miles. For me what helped was to be able to "lean" on my buddy and for my mare to "lean" on her buddy. This took a lot of pressure off both of us and I could focus on myself and then the mare and slowly build from there.

[rainechyldes]

ok.. so I am following.

Mare is your typical hot reactive Arab.

The mare is reasonably good alone at a walk and trot. The mare is 5, and judging by the speeds you are finishing at (#2?) , already probably already has a bit of what I call 'race' brain'

Meaning they stop thinking and get stupid because it's a nerve thing when racing for faster finishes on a somewhat imo young horse career wise. And the faster the gait, the more race brain is apparent. in my experience.


Slow down. Don't canter for awhile. It' s really a simply solution, and it doesn't mean your mare is crap for endurance. Don't be another one of these riders who fall for the take em out early hard and fast as a youngster, and have a horse all washed up or brain fried by the time it's 7. Or worst yet, you end up seriously injured because of needing to do the 'go!"

Frankly, I rarely canter my horses on the trail, they may break into a canter now and then, but.. even my newest' horse who is 6, have never been cantered purposely on the trail yet. Race brain pisses me off, I hate it, and I refuse to give them the spooj/snort/omg option if it means being patient and pulling your horse down to a more appropriate speed until more experience exists for the horse so be it. It's your resposibility as an endurance rider to manage your horse for the long term health and training/attitude wise. so.. me, I'd just slow down for a year, but then, I'm the patient type:)

and yes I saw the part where she's good in groups, its a security blanket. The alone is where top riders end up competing mostly --to be alone, you need to slow down and let her set the pace for awhile, she's not confident and secure cantering alone in the big bad yet, shes telling you this. Listen:)

[patti]

... but not sure what your goals are with this mare. We bring along horses with the intention of a really long career (think Decade Team here) and with 100s as a goal. My husband has an extremely competitive horse that he consistently Top Tens with in 50s and such, but ...

We do lots of walking trail rides, in groups. All of our horses understand that, even during an actual endurance ride, walking is a valid option and one we use to establish the pace we want, to drop back from other riders/horses we don't care to pace with, cool the horses when their core heat gets up there, etc. It's just part of the training we use to ensure we have civil, well trained horses who can adapt to going solo, in groups, fast or slow, in the front or the back, etc.

We also do a lot of dressage but then again, I'm the first to admit that I'm an anal control freak who wants a responsive horse who can bend, flex, collect and make the work physically easier for both of us.

So things I'd suggest (since you asked):

Lots of walking group trail rides. Walk an entire loop of a ride. Yes, an endurance ride. Walk it. (Otherwise you're teaching your horse that walking is expected in a non-competition atmosphere, but entirely optional during a competition.)

Better still, move her up to a SLOW 50. As in back of the pack. As in only considering a canter on the LAST loop when you know you have a ton of horse left. I think a SLOW 50 will be better for her brain than two or three or ten more fast LDs. (I only do LDs with young horses or horses new to the sport or as a tune up for longer distances; I think once they get the idea of how the sport works, moving up in distance, not speed, is what teaches them to pace, eat, drink, etc.)

Nixsnay the canter for now.

Dressage or arena lessons to ensure you have more tools in your toolbox going down the trail. Spooking is typically a result of a lack of confidence and/or trust, something you can remedy with lots more training and slow, systematic work. Think of putting lots of "trust" pennies in a jar, and only taking "trust" pennies out in small quantities for short periods of time, such that you never have a deficit of pennies.

Quit racing your 5 y.o. in LDs if your plan is for a long career with an adaptable horse who can go quietly down the trail in a variety of situations for many years.

There is time for racing when she is 7, 8, 10, 12 and she can keep her brain together in ALL situations.

Make haste slowly.

Just my two cents. Take it or leave it as you see fit, and good luck.

--Patti

[Arrow]

There have been some super threads on this in the last 6 months--since I have so few posts, you go back through my posts to find the threads.

Based on those other threads and the way I applied the advice to Arrow, I'd say that she isn't acknowledging you as her leader when you are riding alone at a canter. She's all about fear--not trusting you to know what you're doing. Arrow's issues were different, but I responded to them by changing my attitude out on the trail when he started in--instead of being frustrated by the behavior, I changed my mindset. I started thinking, "I'm the boss, you've got a job to do, I know what I'm doing, I'll keep you safe, so do your job." Ride very actively at the canter, keep her focus on you while she canters, wondering what you'll ask her to do next. I guess maybe it won't work at a canter, but at a walk, whenever I felt his attention wander, I'd gently swing my reins back and forth, back and forth--tap hip, tap shoulder, tap hip, tap shoulder, and say "mind your job, mind your job, mind your job."

She needs to be thinking about you when she canters, and the ground under her feet, not what's lurking in the bushes.

[Arrow]

What about the advice folks always give about horses who rush--make the canters just a few strides at first, then back to a trot or walk. Make her wonder what's coming next at the canter--make her watch for transitions. I know that for an endurance horse you want her moving freely up the trail, but until you get this issue resolved, this is a good way to make her pay attention to you and not the bushes. Make the canters longer gradually, over a month--not over a day or even a week. I agree very much with patti's post just above mine.

[grayarabpony]

A2 not to worry. 5 is still a baby, esp with a hot horse. Your main problem at this point is that a wiry horse can be hard to sit when spooking, as they can spook right out from under you.

Clearly she feels as though you're not there when she's cantering. My guess is that you're taking your leg off. I'd try doing a lot of trot/ canter transitions at first until you both build up your confidence, keeping the canter phase of the exercise short.

[meaty ogre]

Nothing really different to add than what has already been stated, but I just wanted to share that I have a 17yo TB who still will occasionally spook at the canter, if we canter "hunter style" on a loose rein, low and slow. That canter is more comfortable and easy as he does have a nice one, but if I want to canter near something scary or in a situation where he might spook, it has to be in my dressage seat, on the bit. So yes, yours is a baby, but no, she might not outgrow this. :-)

I've never done competetive endurance rides, but I can see how it would be easy to sour a horse to this just like with show horses. It never ceases to amaze me, people ride their horses for 45mins-1 hour, several days a week to prep for a show. Then, they get to the show, they ride for 45mins-hour to warm up in the morning, show in a couple divisions, 3 classes apiece, adding up to a couple more hours under tack. Then after a year of that they wonder why the horse is sour. I'm not making accusations here because horse show people are all different, and probably very different than endurance riders, just suggesting that you make sure she's not associating cantering with a tense or high-stress atmosphere or event.

[Auventera Two]

Quick update -

She's been on Mare Magic for a few days (the double loading dose) and I noticed a MASSIVE change in her entire demeanor last night. http://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClassDescription.aspx?productClassId=4738&cmPreserveSource=true&cmPreserveCategory=true

I rode her alone for about 45 minutes and she was absolutely perfect. Even at the canter. Even standing for the fly spray she was a different horse. She stands just fine for it, but her skin flinches and twitches when the spray hits her. She'll tuck her tail between her legs and squat when I spray her hindquarters. Last night she stood there completely loose and relaxed, just looking out the front door, skin never flinched at all. Also she will cross her front legs and rub them together like a cricket when I spray her shoulders and front legs - she didn't do that either.

The Mare Magic is just raspberry leaves but I had read really tremendous things about it calming fussy fidgety horses - even after a few days to a week on it. I'm not claiming it a miracle, just saying that it clearly helped settle her nerves. How? I don't know.

We did lateral movements and lengthening and collecting the trot, and canter. She was not spooky at all. After our ride I rode her around under the trees down the driveway trimming the limbs off that we can't reach while on foot. My husband had a bonfire going, and I'd ride over by it and drop the branches. She could not have cared less. Of course she's usually very good about any kind of "weird" stuff like that anyway. But even so, she'll flinch if she hears or sees something. I got no flinches last night.

I'm going to continue with the supplement, and these types of alone rides. I think the biggest problem is that she just doesn't ride alone enough. Also an eye exam just to be sure.

For what it's worth - we did almost no cantering at all on our last LD. Maybe a couple little ones here or there. It was all walk and trot, the trail was very hilly and rocky with washouts and bogs. I extended my hold time so I could ride out with another horse, and we still finished it in 3:31. We weren't racing at all, just moving down the trail in a nice trot, and slowing to a walk whenever needed. Me and the other lady I was riding with pulled over to let them graze twice also.

I am just getting better at trimming time off the vet stops. That's where our "speed" is coming from. I can't believe how much time I used to putz away because I just didn't have the hang of the process. You can add 15 minutes to your time just by getting in the wrong line or sponging too long thinking you aren't pulsed down, etc....

I've now learned that it does no good to stand there for 10 minutes trying to make the horse eat while she pulses down. Just untack, sponge her for a minute, and go to the pulse taker. She won't eat until she feels there is no pressure.It's stuff like that kills your time. I have a book that says endurance races are won and lost in the vet checks and boy am I a believer. You can make a lot of time over other people in the vet checks, without ever increasing your speed on the trail.

Also her trot is really improving dramatically. She used to tippy toe along in a 6mph trot and now she can float at 9 mph. That's hardly a racing speed, but just pacing consistently seems to really move you down the trail. The tortise and the hare analogy is really true on the trail. You just stay consistent going at a moderate pace and the vet hold is there before you know it.

[sublimequine]

Sounds like your mare's spook was like my mare's bucking; seems to be just part of "who she is", and even once fixed, it's ALWAYS gonna be in the back of their brains. My mare doesn't really buck under saddle anymore, but I KNOW if I started riding defensively again, she's start bucking again.

Glad the MM is working for you! My mare's on it as well. If you find you still like it after you've used up the bag, I suggest buying pure raspberry leaf in bulk. Much cheaper. I get it from bulkherbstore.com :)

[Chall]

Was going to suggest letting someone else ride her, that will eliminate "you" as part of the problem. Glad you found an alternative answer anyway.

[SPatterson]

Glad to see she's better. I had good luck with the Mare Magic on my Arab as well, and it sounds like our mares are fairly similar in personality. You can actually just buy dried raspberry leaves in bulk from an herb supplier (Mountain Rose Herbs is a good one) and save $$ on the supplement--the Mare Magic is around $30/lb and raspberry leaves are $7/lb.

I've also had good results by working on HOW she spooks, since trying to eliminate the spook entirely was futile. Teaching them how to stand their ground and look at the monster--even if that means doing a splay-legged stop, stretching down and snorting--is better than an immediate wheel-and-bolt that dumps you off.

[Auventera Two]

Thanks SP, I'm glad to hear the Mare Magic worked for your Arab mare also! :) I just got trigger happy and added it to my Smart Pak cart before thinking much about it. When this is gone though I will re-order from one of the herb websites listed.

[Bank of Dad]

Wow, what an interesting thread. I'm out of town for 2 weeks and just caught this.
If you remember from my other threads, I've had issues with my 6 yr old Arab that I've just had one year now, aka Seabiscuit. I've now spent a year slowing him down and teaching him that the trail is the place to relax. In the beginning he would buck and take off as soon as I trotted him, or from accidental pressure from my leg. And I had that terrible bolt in the spring. I stopped taking him to the trainer each week, cause all we did constantly was desensitize him to the jumps in the indoor, and work on taking his right lead. Lesson and gas was about $65 a week. Just not what I needed.

Since June I have taken him out on the trail about 5 days a week, 3-4 alone, 1 with company. And I was thinking about you, AT, jealous of the long easy canters I imagined you having.

So, in the past 7 weeks of riding I have noticed his style alone is to go slow and poky on the way out, to speed up coming home, and to notice every single new thing, especially if it is a new truck track on the trail, a new rock, a new branch on the trail. I probably will not do endurance with him, cause I don't think my body can take it. However, I want him conditioned and fit for our long trail rides. So I think the conditioning and training is similar. I came to the conclusion before you posted this nice thread that what he needs is several years of long slow work on the trail. My immediate goals are no bolts, no bucking, and go forward and cross whatever I say.

I have progressed from only walking him all last fall, to mostly walking and trotting about 20 strides at a time, to being able to trot him for several minutes at a time now. I can feel him start to think about spooking during these trots, but I have more control and can push him forward through. If he's stupid, I immediately stop, do a few hip disengagements each direction, and repeat the trot. If he really is STUPID, then they are fast hip dis's and I yell at him. He gets the message.

Just last week I actually cantered him, going towards home when he's more willing and somewhat less stupid, for the first times. Again, just a few strides. I guess I will do with the canters like I've done with the trots.

But I thought to myself that working him at the trot when we are alone, is probably the best for both of us. It gets him in great condition, I have more control, it is harder for him to buck, and he learns to go forward going faster.

I actually have more issue with him trotting behind another horse, cause he gets excited, there's some bucking, and I have to settle him down. So most of our rides are alone.

My old mare also had some issues with stopping suddenly when leading at a canter. I think it could have been due to having her mom with her on many rides, although mom was never in front. She too, got excited at horses cantering in front of her. Thats why I decided that with this new one, I'm doing slow and steady until he's condident enough to go forward more on his own.

I also think that many horses are not alpha or confident enough to be the herd leader. If they were in the wild, they wouldn't be running in front. My current arab, for example, is the boss in the field, but this doesn't translate to any confidence on the trail. Some guys just want to be #2 when they perceive danger. Mine will go past some amazing obstacles, then spook the next day when that obstacle is no longer there or invisible.

Also, you want to be careful you don't overdo the conditioning with her....she is young and you want her strong and healthy for many years.

I'll stop being jealous now. I think it takes years of trail work, and not every horse is perfect for the job we want them for. We either lower our expectations and live with what we have, or get a new horse and try again.

[Carol Ames]

Do you have a ring to work in?others to ride with? There are some basic riding :yes:lesson exercises you could do in a ring:yes:, or out with others :yes:;; as for building her self confidence:winkgrin:; I highly recommend the TTEAM training exercises:winkgrin:, over poles in various\configurations, as well as working through the:winkgrin: plastic; if there is anyway the two of you could go to a training session; it would be worth the effort:yes:. Where are you located?:confused:

[Mersy]

Another way to get a horse to think and slow down is what I call "tree bashing". That is when I leave the trail and trek off through the woods, picking the route footstep by footstep. A game trail works well also. You will find after doing this a number of times your horse will become more focused on YOU directing her, especially through thick woods. Some even find it fun. Its kindof like doing pole bending except you have 100s of poles to manuver around.

[Auventera Two]

Had another great ride last night. She just seems more focused and less hyper/crawling out of her skin.

Bank of Dad - We DO have nice long easy canters! Or gallops. But when there's another horse either in front or behind. Or - I can canter her down the edge of my road on the shoulder and I have no problem. I've never had a problem cantering her alongside of any road. She doesn't even so much as LOOK at mailboxes or cars or people on their lawnmowers, etc. It seems to be that one little poof of dead grass on the side of the trail, or that yellow flower growing, or just nothing at all that spooks her out on the trail.

Mersy - I do a lot of the "threading through the woods" style riding becase that's just how some of our trails are. She's perfect on stuff like that because we're not cantering alone. In fact, this mares loves trails that are thick and dense with lots of stuff to step over and around. She's truly in her element when the trails are super technical. She has something to focus on then. Even cantering alone on trails that are winding with hills to climb, she's perfect. Her brain is busy.

It's hard to explain but it's generally only at the canter, while alone, when she's not having to think. Sometimes I get a spook at a fast trot but that's not enough to unseat me.

I get the feeling people think this mare is crashing through the woods out of control terrified of her own shadow, and that's not the case. It's while cantering, and only while cantering without another horse. And, if the cantering alone happens to be on a really technical section of trail that requires real thought process, she's never spooked. It's those long flat trails with nothing for miles that kills us every time.

I rode this mare down to the river (alone!) and had to thread my way through dogs and kids swimming in the water, women laying out on lounge chairs, kids cannonballing off the bridge, and guys sitting around with their beer coolers and radios blasting - just to get to a good spot in the river where we could stand and relax. She walked right through and between it all and got out to the deep water down river a ways and out in the middle. No problem. She's absolutely trustworthy about stuff like that. I'd trust my life to the horse. Lots of stuff and commotion is no problem for her, she seems to enjoy it the more "stuff" that's going on. It's the cantering alone thing that's the issue. But it's fine, we'll keep working on it.

[Auventera Two]

Do you have a ring to work in?others to ride with? There are some basic riding :yes:lesson exercises you could do in a ring:yes:, or out with others :yes:;; as for building her self confidence:winkgrin:; I highly recommend the TTEAM training exercises:winkgrin:, over poles in various\configurations, as well as working through the:winkgrin: plastic; if there is anyway the two of you could go to a training session; it would be worth the effort:yes:. Where are you located?:confused:

Thank you Carol. I'm in northeastern Wisconsin. You have no idea how much of that stuff I've done with this horse! :lol: We've done groundwork until I dream about it in my sleep. Walking over and through things is no problem. I even do this thing where I hang a tarp up from a rafter in my arena and then longe her so she has to trot under the tarp - she has to duck, and it flies over her head and down her back and she goes under. She acts like it's not even there. Those kinds of things I've done since she was a baby. So while I understand the need for these types of exercises, believe me, I have done them and done them and done them until no matter what I do, there's practically no reaction from her at all. I've done them on the ground, and under saddle.

Believe me guys, the mare will do just about anything, it's just cantering while alone that is tripping us up.

I have an apt. for her eyes. Last night it just didn't cease to amaze me - we trotted right past an old white styrofoam cooler on the edge of the road that had blown out of someone's truck. She didn't even so much as glance at it. But later on the trail we went past a little piece of 2x4 board laying on the edge and we had to stop and snort and blow and run sideways and passage past it. So we spent 5 minutes at the board figuring out it won't kill us. It's just so strange. If I had been cantering, and we cantered past that, I would have been on the ground. But cantering past the white styrofoam cooler would have been no problem. That's why this is so frustrating.

She did have a serious eye injury as a baby that required medication, stall rest, and patching for a few weeks. It was a laceration. But the vet had said it healed up perfect and she'd never have any problems again from it. I'm just not so sure though. Big white, or brightly colored shiny things are okay, but small little dark colored things are not okay. Or at least that's how it seems. We can canter right past a clump of white flowers, she doesn't even notice them. But canter past a clump of orange flowers and she'll slam on the breaks and blow at them. (But only while alone.)

[Auventera Two]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvyEJw4g5Tk

Very interesting.

[mp]

To be honest, AT, what your mare is doing sounds pretty typical for a hot, young Arabian. They're energetic and smart and they overthink everything. You hit the nail on the head when you said it happens when she doesn't have to think. When you're on a tough part of a trail or there's a lot going around you, she's mentally occupied and has a place to channel all that energy. When you're not, she's going to look for something to take up the slack. And when she's alone (somewhat stressful) and "up," (cantering) with nothing else to think about, it won't take much to set her off.

It's good that you're getting her eyes checked. And the raspberry leaves and T-Touch might help. But she's still going to do it until you figure out how to give her something to think about when she's otherwise "unoccupied." rainechyldes and BankofDad and others have given you some very good ways to do it. Some people call it riding every step, but it's not micro-managing. It's keeping the horse engaged in body and mind.

You have goals, and you will reach them. But for right now, think about slowing down a little. Because your horse is telling you "this is too much."

[Auventera Two]

Thank you mp, I appreciate the post. You're right on all points.

[pandorasboxx]

Tons of good advice. Not sure what I can add but:

This was my mare 5 yrs ago. Probably worse. Terrible spooking esp at a canter. Sent her away for trail training for 4 months. Came back slightly better but-still spooking. It killed my back and my confidence. Cantering always devolved into hand gallops then racing gallops. That wasn't fun.

We rode mostly alone. Started back to scratch. Walk, walk, then building to trot, slow then extended. Made her and myself go past the scary stuff, no avoiding, no taking another path. Building our confidence and partnership.

Nowadays, I canter some but its mainly trotting when alone. She is still fast at the canter and reactive though comparatively muted. In company we can canter comfortably for miles, alone I need to mind my p's and q's.

Recently started dressage lessons to improve my seat, hands, balance. I'm an average rider at best, not so pretty many times, though pretty good at sitting a spook by now.

I'm thinking with us it was a matter of young age, sensitive temperament and sloppy riding. Age is gone, temperament is here to stay and the riding I'm trying to improve.

Slow 50's are an excellent idea. Slow hard 50's even better.

[AnotherRound]

You may have more than enough input of the "its to be expected" kind, so my post may not be of interest, however I would like to address this issue which is extremely
common with young mares.

In the wild, there is usually an older experienced mare which leads the herd. She goes first. Her job is to by hypervigilent and the rest of the herd follows her lead, not only in where to go, but more importantly in whehter to feel safe or not. A lead horse's job is to spook, watch for trouble, and be ready to tell everyone else with her exagerated body language to beat it the hell out of there at a moment's notice.

A horse which has never been the lead horse goes crazy when we ask it to go first down the trail. The responsibility is great, and it does not know, because of lack of experience, what to spook at or what is coming. Its spookiness is exagerated because

a) it is suddenly responsible for other horses

b) no one else is tell it what to do

It is b) that worries a young mare the most out by herself - suddenly she has to be the one to keep herself safe. Before, she could reley on her path-mates to tell her when to be worried. Now she only has her young, inexpereienced sweet self.

Does this put this behavious into a different perspective for you now? I have seen people try to force a mare away from the barn to trail by herself and the horse will litterally spin circles to avoid going out on her own. A young mare who believes she doesn't have the experience to keep herself safe, is fighting her instincts. It is right to take her out with other horses for several more years until she is more self confident.

This isn't "herd boun" - this is self preservation and normal. Listen to the mare, she isn't being spoiled, she really IS a baby, either in years or emotionally because we keep horses from learning in their normal herd school.

Make a bit of sense?

[Auventera Two]

Slow 50's are an excellent idea. Slow hard 50's even better.

Our last endurance ride I rode with a top competitor in our region who is FEI qualified and has trained horses in other countries, etc... She said the best thing to do would be get this horse going in 50s. Or compete in a 25, make sure she passes the vet check, give her an hour to rest, then hit the trail and do another 25 on my own. She told me that she cured a spooky freaky young horse that way.

Earlier this season a vet told me I didn't ride hard enough or far enough, as the horse was passaging around the final vet check tossing her head and flagging her tail. She said - take her in a 50 next time!

My goal anyway was to do a slow 50 this fall. Not sure if it will happen or not, but it's something to consider. If I did a 50 with her, it would definitely be very slow, probably taking 10 hours or more. Increasing the distance that much worries me with a young horse.

[patti]

this comment:

<<Increasing the distance that much worries me with a young horse.>>

Is one I disagree with vehemently.

In my experience, it's not distance that kills, it's speed.

Slow down, go further.

I think, quite frankly, that it would be safer and less detrimental, to do a slow 100 with a six year old with a good LSD base, than to race that six year old in LDs.

Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

[Bank of Dad]

Right, I agree with Patti about long slow distance, that's the safest conditioning there is. It gives time to add the training in, while increasing the stamina, etc reducing the risk of stressing fragile bone and tendon.

You said you have miles of open space to canter in. Where I am, we have nothing like that. Mostly hilly trails and fire roads thru forest. Very little flat and open until I went to a Rails to Trails line, or one other preserve I know. So what I noticed about my Arab is that he tends to be more claustrophobic in the narrow enclosed spaces, and more relaxed in a more open space, where the trail might be next to the forest, not thru it. So maybe that's why shes better along a road.

Please send all your obstacles, junk, and garbage here so I can get him as used to it as yours. I forgot we had garbage day on Thurs and he flipped out at trash. Fri, he flipped out cause the trash was gone.

I also think it makes a hugh difference to have done this work since they were babes. Ease up and she'll be fine.

[Romantic Rider]

I know what you're dealing with. Both my mares are spooks. But I've just come to accept that it's part of their personality. No horse is perfect. My endurance horse spooks all the time, mostly at little anomalies on the trail. (A strange patch of grass, or flowers, or dirt, or rock etc...) I can never predict them, but always expect them. Even when she's tired at the end of a 50 mile ride she will still find something to spook out, alone or by herself. I don't like it, but I've learned to accept it. My other little mare isn't a chronic spooker. She actually does much better by herself than with another horse. She spooks the worst when she's bored. We have another horse like that too. They are so incredibly smart and so easily bored that they look for something to make the ride interesting. Because of lameness issues, I've recently been taking slow, boring rides on her. She finds ways to make them as interesting as possible, even at a walk. I can just see her looking for something to spook at. These smart, high-strung animals aren't supposed to be easy rides.

[Auventera Two]

She has done really really well the last week or so. I think the raspberry leaves has definitely done something for her. I also added a little magnesium to her beet pulp. I'm not really big on supplements but I tend to think she needs some type of nerve calming stuff.

RR - are you going to Arkdale? I'll be there both days. I think the plan is that I'll ride her one day and Michael is going to ride her the other day. Two slow LDs back to back in prep for a slow 50 this fall. That will give her 6 rides this season and that's enough. He thinks the problem is how tense I am in my hips and back due to pain. I'm sure that's one big part of it too.

[BarbeyGirl]

A trainer in my area often says, "Start where you can, not where you think you should."

W/T your mare alone, a lot, for several months. (My gelding tended to get too excited at the canter, so we trotted for 3.5 months until he was mentally ready to listen to me at a canter.)

After a couple hundred miles of trotting alone, add a few strides of canter. Bring her back to the trot quickly. Sprinkle in a few more canters, then a few more strides per canter, over a span of weeks.

Meanwhile, you can continue participating in endurance -- at the trot. :cool:

Good luck and hang in there -- I hate it when I feel like I've hit a brick wall with a particular horse's issue, but there's always a door. You just need to find it. :yes:

[twofatponies]

Sounds to me like she just needs more confidence. What are YOU doing differently when you're out alone? I suspect a tad more tense?

She sounds a lot like my one mare....totally cool with another horse around, much much much less confident out on her own. She was never even ridden outside of an indoor arena til I got her. Have more work to do, but our opportunities to go out alone at this point are few and far between.

My other mare? Doesn't matter. Alone, in a group, whatever.
.

I've got two just like that, too! The 18 year old does big ole 180 degree spooks at random, especially at the canter, especially when alone. She's low in the herd rank, which I think makes her less confident alone (or first, for that matter!). But she also spent most of her early life in the ring, so that didn't help, either. When I ride her out I sit deep and keep one hand near some mane or the grab strap! If I see her starting to look at something I can bend her head away from it and keep her busy, but often she reacts so suddenly I don't feel it coming. So no useful advice from me! Just commiseration!

[jeano]

You may have more than enough input of the "its to be expected" kind, so my post may not be of interest, however I would like to address this issue which is extremely
common with young mares.

In the wild, there is usually an older experienced mare which leads the herd. She goes first. Her job is to by hypervigilent and the rest of the herd follows her lead, not only in where to go, but more importantly in whehter to feel safe or not. A lead horse's job is to spook, watch for trouble, and be ready to tell everyone else with her exagerated body language to beat it the hell out of there at a moment's notice.

A horse which has never been the lead horse goes crazy when we ask it to go first down the trail. The responsibility is great, and it does not know, because of lack of experience, what to spook at or what is coming. Its spookiness is exagerated because

a) it is suddenly responsible for other horses

b) no one else is tell it what to do

It is b) that worries a young mare the most out by herself - suddenly she has to be the one to keep herself safe. Before, she could reley on her path-mates to tell her when to be worried. Now she only has her young, inexpereienced sweet self.

Does this put this behavious into a different perspective for you now? I have seen people try to force a mare away from the barn to trail by herself and the horse will litterally spin circles to avoid going out on her own. A young mare who believes she doesn't have the experience to keep herself safe, is fighting her instincts. It is right to take her out with other horses for several more years until she is more self confident.

This isn't "herd boun" - this is self preservation and normal. Listen to the mare, she isn't being spoiled, she really IS a baby, either in years or emotionally because we keep horses from learning in their normal herd school.

Make a bit of sense?

Another Round, I have observed this with my two--Sadie was always "Safety Horse" but in the past few months has apparently ceded some of that role to Hawk. He gets to lead on rides with Sadie defering to him . One of my riding buddies calls this manuever "Sacrifice the Gelding" when both horses hesitate and Sadie very clearly directs Hawk to "go on, I've got your back."

Sadie is now so laid back that my skeered to ride neighbor (who just recently started riding out with me) has ridden her a few times since her own mare is laid up. Neighbor told me, "Sadie is the first horse I have EVER been on that I felt completely comfortable and safe with the moment I got on her." I had to call the other riding buddy up and tell her, "Wow, Sadie is now not only a packer but a deadhead!"

That friend, who has been on the business end of some of Sadie's lapses, laughed and said, "naw, not a deadhead. She's just biding her time. The sixes on her forehead will come out again."

However, I do think the Satanic One is ready to qualify for her original purpose, being a Husband Horse. Long road to get there.

[Auventera Two]

I've got two just like that, too! The 18 year old does big ole 180 degree spooks at random, especially at the canter, especially when alone. She's low in the herd rank, which I think makes her less confident alone (or first, for that matter!). But she also spent most of her early life in the ring, so that didn't help, either. When I ride her out I sit deep and keep one hand near some mane or the grab strap! If I see her starting to look at something I can bend her head away from it and keep her busy, but often she reacts so suddenly I don't feel it coming. So no useful advice from me! Just commiseration!

:lol: Yep, that's how I feel, to the letter. I talked to a local trainer and she kept telling me how I should practice the one rein stop and practice all these types of exercises to refocus the horse. Well, that would be nice, but there's no time for that. (She does know the ORS by the way, quite well.) It's just canter canter canter BOOM, done. I'm laying on the ground and she's standing over me and there was no warning whatsoever. No looky looky, no tensing up, just whip a 180 at the speed of light with no provocation and no warning. One stride she feels perfectly soft and focused, forward, and happy. Next stride it's all over.

But anyway, I've been riding her at the walk and trot, and when I ride with another horse I've been having her lead at least 75% of the time. She's calmed down considerably and I haven't had any more than a little muscle jerk if she hears or sees something unexpectedly. I've tried a few alone canters with no bad reactions, but I'm going to let that dog lie for a while yet and just keep up the alone rides at the w/t.

[SmokenMirrors]

It does sound to me like your mare just needs to build up her confidence and you to show her your a leader worth following. I am having the same issues so I found a trainer to work with myself and my QH gelding Terry as he was doing the same things, only at a walk, he would spook at squirrels, trees, whatever he thought may eat him.

A few days ago we had been out alone, he was a bit spun up but I remained calm, kept a semi loose rein and used my legs to cue him forward and kept his legs moving. We went through a friends field that I hadn't realized was as over grown, full of bramble, ground vines and holes like it was so he really had to pay attention to me and I to where we were going.

We got out of that and on the road I told him what a good boy he was, to take it easy and as we were passing a friends house his ears pricked forward, I felt him tense, when suddenly I heard a loud crack and a branch fell not 10ft in front of us! He spooked, did a 180, but was easily gotten back under control and stood there snorting. I let him see the place the branch, that broke into 3 pieces on the way down fell, asked for him to walk on and he went by it giving it the "eye".

So you can get your girl to settle down, and if she is spooking at a lope or canter, then don't do that gate for a while till she is steady at a walk, a trot, etc..and you can trust her.

Good luck.

[Chloesmom]

I just wanted to point out an observation... I hear you say over and over again how wonderful this horse is in all other regards, and I'm sure she is quite wonderful. However, your posts are littered with comments like the following...
She's calmed down considerably and I haven't had any more than a little muscle jerk if she hears or sees something unexpectedly
If she has calmed down considerably, then she wasn't very calm to begin with - true? To say that she is having little more than a muscle jerk reaction, tacked onto the comment that this is the "calmed down considerably" version of your horse, tells me that there is a lot of stuff you are ignoring or minimizing because the mare is managing to hold it together through these emotions.

That is something that you really need to spend some time thinking about. This little mare is trying her heart out for you and you are taking it for granted. Stop expecting so much out of her. You are dealing with self-preservation here, and until you replace the spin and bolt with another behavior, or until the mare has more experience and confidence, this isn't going to change.

One of the things I have been thinking of doing, is to set up a trail course out in the woods somewhere. This course would have scary things that I would practice riding by. Perhaps a scare-crow hiding in the bushes, or a tape player that has animal sounds, strange things laying on the ground, etc. I think it would help a horse like yours to learn to expect the unexpected - to consider it old hat.

[Auventera Two]

I shall clarify - while cantering or trotting when alone. I can do whatever I want with the horse on the ground, or riding at a walk. Or even a slow jog trot. But when we are ALONE working at a fast trot or a canter, that is what I'm talking about. Instead of whipping a 180 when she sees something at the trot or canter WHEN ALONE, I get a little jerk or bobble - like - what was that?

[LisaW-B]

Maybe this is the chicken solution, but it's what I would do: Stop cantering her when you're out alone. period. Keep building confidence at the walk and trot where she's been succeeding and can continue to succeed. Then, one day, whenever that comes whether sooner or later, when it feels right, ask for the canter. Bring her back down after only one or two strides. Praise her liberally. It might be next week, or in six months, or two years from now. Take it in baby steps. I guess I don't understand the need to canter her when you're out alone, if everything else is going well. "Ride where you can, and not where you can't." I think if you give it time and take it a whole lot slower, one day you will find yourself cantering her out alone, and it won't be a big deal. For now, if it were me, I would stop doing it, because *I* don't like getting hurt. And, every time it happens, you're reinforcing a negative experience for both of you and putting yourself at risk. She sounds like a really nice young mare and I think you should focus on your successes and just leave this area alone for the time being. It's not "giving up" or "quitting" or any of that. It may be in *your* mind, but your horse doesn't think that way. I think it's being a smarter rider. JMHO. But then again, see chicken comment above. I prefer not to hit the ground or set my horse up to fail.

[matryoshka]

One of the things I have been thinking of doing, is to set up a trail course out in the woods somewhere. This course would have scary things that I would practice riding by. Perhaps a scare-crow hiding in the bushes, or a tape player that has animal sounds, strange things laying on the ground, etc. I think it would help a horse like yours to learn to expect the unexpected - to consider it old hat.This sounds like a good idea. Just be sure to move the scarey objects to different places to mix it up some. :D

I've got a flighty mare that I plan to start sometime soon. She's just turned 4, and I'm giving her time to mature. I think she'll end up being a spooker if I'm not careful, so I'm planning her training very carefully. She's going to get ponied out on the trail for quite a while before I take her out mounted. I think we'll also do quite a bit of hand-walking on the trail, too. Goodness knows I can stand to lose a bit around the middle! I'll be getting her used to as many obstacles as possible either in hand or while ponied so that she and I both know how she'll react. I'm hoping to learn her pattern of behavior, and I'm hoping she'll learn to trust me to keep her from harm.

Still, she's got a reactive disposition, and I'm wondering how much that can be trained or desensitized out. I think that for quite a while, it is important not to put your horse in a situation where she's likely to spook, unless you are schooling specifically to have her learn to deal with fear (such as the obstacle course mentioned above). So if it were me and my new little mare at the point where you have your horse, we wouldn't be cantering alone anytime soon.

I'm a big fan of setting the horse up for success and letting them mature before asking (or letting) them get to the point where they are stressed enough to be reactive.

[Chloesmom]

I shall clarify too - you keep saying your horse is fine at all times except when alone at the canter. I get that. However, I think you are not paying attention to things that you should. For example, these quotes are from your first post in this thread, and there is much more in this thread if you care to look. So far, this is the type of thing you keep saying about this mare...


95% of everything she does is great.
She hardly ever refuses anything -
The problem? SPOOKING when on the trail alone - particularly at the canter.

But let us get separated from other horses and she's afraid of her own shadow.


This is so incredibly frustrating because if there's another horse within seeing distance - in front - or behind us - she's a gem. But let everybody get out of site and it's all I can do to stay on her back because every leaf, shadow, twig, and little dark spot of mud is The Devil ready to suck the life out of her.
I get the full out blows and snorts and running sideways and backwards, and neck so tight you could bounce a quarter off it.

So... THAT is the horse that you say is fine in all other circumstances. Until she's alone; then she's the horse that 5% of the time is a nutjob who's afraid of every twig, shadow and change of dirt color and goes bonkers over it?

And here is where the problem may be...
I have a friend who says she couldn't canter her horse alone until the horse was 15 years old! Sorry but I just can't accept that kind of mediocrity from a horse.
Is it possible that you can't/won't accept that your horse has more than one problem? Do you want too badly for her to be perfect?

In addition, and still from the first post we have this...
I never get on this horse's back until I've done a little ground work and I am 100% sure she is 100% focused on ME. She's just so hot and reactive, you don't take chances with a horse like that.
You obviously recognize that this mare needs a lot of preparation before riding. Why? How can you say that she is just fine in all other circumstances, because obviously you need to work awfully hard to get her calm and focused. Again, in your words, she is hot and reactive and not something you take chances with. In my experience, a horse that needs this much preparation is NOT fine in any circumstance. I think that if you were honest with yourself, you might see that what you have is a lot of little problems, but the only problem that is of concern to you is the one that jeapodizes your safety. However, the cantering problem is only an expression of all the little things that don't bother you and that you aren't labeling as a "problem". Look here again...
I had a nasty fall last week and I'm at my witt's end. I worked her at the walk and trot for several miles, doing lots of leg yields and circles, back up, lengthening and shortening the stride, etc.
You see, even when riding this horse you have to KEEP working hard to keep her mind busy and focused. She's young; that's ok! She's right where she should be. Your expectations are too high for this young horse. She's doing just fine; better than fine. Give her a break; stop expecting her to be perfect at 5.

Your horse is acting in self-preservation and it won't change until you condition her to respond in a different manner, or until you have enough miles on her that she gains the confidence she needs to stop behaving so reactively.

Here's the thing... upping the speed ups the emotions, so at the canter you are only seeing a larger expression of something that is already there.

Another thing to look at, and I don't know if this has been talked about is diet. You are feeding...
Feed - no-molasses beet pulp, pasture, some alfalfa and grain - relatively hard keeper.
Try getting her off of the alfalfa and grain. Grass hay, beet pulp and corn oil would be a better choice for a "hot, reactive" horse.

And if I'm reading things wrong and really off-base, that's ok. I'm just trying to give you some things to think about.

[mp]

Excellent post, Chloesmom.

This horse sound like she's hot and sensitive, but essentially pretty brave. And you really have to weigh all those characteristics and not take the bravery for granted, especially when they're young.

A2 -- Don't push too hard for that last 5%. If she's 95% great, that's a good thing, you know. ;)

[Auventera Two]

She's doing great. I've noticed MASSIVE improvement since starting the raspberry leaves. Perhaps it's something that simple? Perhaps it is not. But all I know is that the improvement has been signifigant.

Thanks for all the ideas - I'm confident we're on the right track.

[Romantic Rider]

Yes, we'll be at Arkdale. I don't know how good of condition our mares will be in. We've been on vacation for a week, and won't get back until Tuesday. And five weeks off between rides is just too long, IMO. Doing two days of LD is a good idea. The first year Mom and I were doing Ld we did a two day at Arkdale. It's a good ride to do it at, not to hard. But, if I may ask, why are you letting someone else ride her the next day?? You must know her way better than anyone else. I wouldn't want to let a strange rider on my little horse the second day of a ride especially, when she may be tired, or the first. But maybe that's just me. I'm very protective of my horses. I ride them, only me, ever. I've been meaning to ask how you did at Endless Valley?

[Auventera Two]

Well he can't go after all so I'll just do the LD on Saturday. I didn't want to ride 2 days in a row because I'm having so much pain in my back and hips right now. I'd do better doing a 50 I think than two back to back 25s because after about 12 hours after exercise I stiffen up and feel much worse than I do during exercise, I doubt I'd be able to come back the next day and ride again. I wouldn't let just anyone ride her but he's a very good friend of mine and is very experienced with young/hot horses. He's a really good rider and he was planning to go very slow with her, at the back of the pack. I'd be there at the vet checks of course to make sure she's doing well.

I think we finished 5th. Her vet scores were good but she had a little bit of filling/swelling in one hind leg. The vet said ice and a couple days off. That really worried me but I think she maybe just took a wrong step on one of those big hills. She was okay the next day and has been okay since though I really babied it for a few weeks just as precautionary. I extended my hold time and rode out with somebody else because I didn't necessarily want to be on the trail alone with her. I'm glad I made that decision because I ended up having a really nice ride/conversation with this other lady. We had a really nice time. :)

That trail was tough. It was the most technical I've done yet, though I suppose it wasn't hard for seasoned competitors.

[pj]

a2, looked at the mare's picture and she's a beautiful mare. you two look really nice together. after reading over your post i thought i'd throw my two cents in. imho i think maybe you're pushing the mare too fast. it sounds as if she just doesn't have the confidence that she should have to be doing all that she's doing. if she were mine i'd go back to trail riding JUST the walk and alone we'd walk until it was obvious that NOTHING was going to spook her (<G> except maybe a murderer running out of the woods at us or a bear, etc.) then i'd start doing a lot of trotting and no cantering until she was rock steady on that. after that you do some of all three gaits. if it takes weeks and weeks for each gait so what? you're building your foundation now and it's a lot harder to go back down the road to fix the holes than it is to make sure the foundation is solid and strong to start with. my favorite horse is a mare that i started four years ago and for the first two and a half years i was ready to pull my hair out but now she is all that i could ask for. she just doesn't spook anymore but that was from going slowly and her gaining more and more confidence. it was well worth the going slowly as i hope this seven year old mare will be with me for the next thirty years. i spent lots of time exposing her to things i thought would spook her and with each exposure she became a little more confident until finally all i had to say was "it's okay" and she'd ignore the whatever it was. now she just trusts that it's okay. i wish you luck and happy trails.

[goeslikestink]

Well he can't go after all so I'll just do the LD on Saturday. I didn't want to ride 2 days in a row because I'm having so much pain in my back and hips right now. I'd do better doing a 50 I think than two back to back 25s because after about 12 hours after exercise I stiffen up and feel much worse than I do during exercise, I doubt I'd be able to come back the next day and ride again. I wouldn't let just anyone ride her but he's a very good friend of mine and is very experienced with young/hot horses. He's a really good rider and he was planning to go very slow with her, at the back of the pack. I'd be there at the vet checks of course to make sure she's doing well.

I think we finished 5th. Her vet scores were good but she had a little bit of filling/swelling in one hind leg. The vet said ice and a couple days off. That really worried me but I think she maybe just took a wrong step on one of those big hills. She was okay the next day and has been okay since though I really babied it for a few weeks just as precautionary. I extended my hold time and rode out with somebody else because I didn't necessarily want to be on the trail alone with her. I'm glad I made that decision because I ended up having a really nice ride/conversation with this other lady. We had a really nice time. :)

That trail was tough. It was the most technical I've done yet, though I suppose it wasn't hard for seasoned competitors.

so why carry on and wheres your back up crew

[Overo Kid]

I couldn't have this better myself, there's been a variation of it in one way or another on every page, but this post by LisaW-B says it best--slow down! There's good stuff from patti and others on p. 3, too.

Maybe this is the chicken solution, but it's what I would do: Stop cantering her when you're out alone. period. Keep building confidence at the walk and trot where she's been succeeding and can continue to succeed. Then, one day, whenever that comes whether sooner or later, when it feels right, ask for the canter. Bring her back down after only one or two strides. Praise her liberally. It might be next week, or in six months, or two years from now. Take it in baby steps. I guess I don't understand the need to canter her when you're out alone, if everything else is going well. "Ride where you can, and not where you can't." I think if you give it time and take it a whole lot slower, one day you will find yourself cantering her out alone, and it won't be a big deal. For now, if it were me, I would stop doing it, because *I* don't like getting hurt. And, every time it happens, you're reinforcing a negative experience for both of you and putting yourself at risk. She sounds like a really nice young mare and I think you should focus on your successes and just leave this area alone for the time being. It's not "giving up" or "quitting" or any of that. It may be in *your* mind, but your horse doesn't think that way. I think it's being a smarter rider. JMHO. But then again, see chicken comment above. I prefer not to hit the ground or set my horse up to fail.

[goeslikestink]

I shall clarify too - you keep saying your horse is fine at all times except when alone at the canter. I get that. However, I think you are not paying attention to things that you should. For example, these quotes are from your first post in this thread, and there is much more in this thread if you care to look. So far, this is the type of thing you keep saying about this mare...



So... THAT is the horse that you say is fine in all other circumstances. Until she's alone; then she's the horse that 5% of the time is a nutjob who's afraid of every twig, shadow and change of dirt color and goes bonkers over it?

And here is where the problem may be...

Is it possible that you can't/won't accept that your horse has more than one problem? Do you want too badly for her to be perfect?

In addition, and still from the first post we have this...

You obviously recognize that this mare needs a lot of preparation before riding. Why? How can you say that she is just fine in all other circumstances, because obviously you need to work awfully hard to get her calm and focused. Again, in your words, she is hot and reactive and not something you take chances with. In my experience, a horse that needs this much preparation is NOT fine in any circumstance. I think that if you were honest with yourself, you might see that what you have is a lot of little problems, but the only problem that is of concern to you is the one that jeapodizes your safety. However, the cantering problem is only an expression of all the little things that don't bother you and that you aren't labeling as a "problem". Look here again...
I
You see, even when riding this horse you have to KEEP working hard to keep her mind busy and focused. She's young; that's ok! She's right where she should be. Your expectations are too high for this young horse. She's doing just fine; better than fine. Give her a break; stop expecting her to be perfect at 5.

Your horse is acting in self-preservation and it won't change until you condition her to respond in a different manner, or until you have enough miles on her that she gains the confidence she needs to stop behaving so reactively.

Here's the thing... upping the speed ups the emotions, so at the canter you are only seeing a larger expression of something that is already there.

Another thing to look at, and I don't know if this has been talked about is diet. You are feeding...

Try getting her off of the alfalfa and grain. Grass hay, beet pulp and corn oil would be a better choice for a "hot, reactive" horse.

And if I'm reading things wrong and really off-base, that's ok. I'm just trying to give you some things to think about.




oh welll said execellent post 100% agree

[goeslikestink]

i will add that any hackamore is a severe bitless in the wrong hands and the horse is young and impressionable and this is not what i would use on a young horse

[saratoga]

i will add that any hackamore is a severe bitless in the wrong hands and the horse is young and impressionable and this is not what i would use on a young horse

Thats generally not the case with the little s-hackamore- they have very little leverage and if anything, the horse is likely to lean on you.

[Romantic Rider]

Hey A2, I didn't see you at Arkdale. Is everything alright? Maybe you just decided to ride on Sunday instead of Saturday, but we didn't pull out till 5:30 and I hadn't seen you. It was a glorious weekend for a ride.

[Diamond Jake]

RR,
A2 sent me an email last week and told me she wasn't coming. She decided to work more on this issue, and did not want to test her work yet.

I hope things are improving for her!

Steph

[Auventera Two]

Thanks Steph, yep, I decided to stay home with her instead. She is doing SO great. I rode bareback last night around the farm roads and she was so happy and felt just wonderful. Obviously we didn't do any cantering though, but ordinarily even at the w/t I can feel more "upness" there. I ditched the "S" shanks on my Little S hack and replaced that with a plain round ring so there is no leverage. She seemed so much happier with that configuration. She was as light as a feather. This is a horse who WILL let you know what works and what doesn't. She's a real princess diva type.

The other night I tried 3 different bits thinking she might just be happier going back to a bit rather than the hack, but that didn't work. She was extremely heavy on the reins and kept dragging her nose down to the dirt.

I've been riding her every day and doing only w/t and lots of circles, back up, leg yields and stuff. She's just so much more focused. I've asked for only a few strides of canter here or there and I've had no issues but I'm keeping that to a minimum for now.

We met some pigs in the woods (fenced in) on Sunday and she was exceptionally well behaved. Sure she startled at first and snorted but there were no fireworks. She's never seen pigs before but just seemed curious about their little piggie happenings and after about a minute she started inching up closer and closer to them on her own. She didn't feel spooky at all or tense, just curious. I would have expected a more "rigid" feeling through her body but I do believe she's improved with the new supplements and new routine.

This weekend I'm doing a long training ride with a buddy and we'll do plenty of cantering then. I'm going to keep the cantering to "with friends" for now.

Another change I've made is that I've been giving her a few hours every couple days in the dry lot with Libbey, so she's away from the alpha bitch (I mean mare.) This seems to increase her confidence because as soon as she figures out the big alpha heifer isn't going to stomp on her, she moves Libbey around a little bit. She seems to come out of her shell when she realizes SHE's big man on the totem pole.

[SarhasMom]

I have a mare (arab as well, just not registered so I don't know lines), sounds identical, at least to her behavior last year. This year, she is a different horse and is a pleasure to ride. It all came back to my confidence and it reverberated to her in every ride. I can't stress this statement enough. Not only has this horse grown over the past 2 years, she has helped me grow and gain more confidence as well. ***just as a side note though...I never cantered her until she was 5 years old and even then, she was very unbalanced. So unbalanced she knocked me all over the place (yes, my seat wasn't brilliant, but having ridden for 20+ years, I knew her canter was not normal). So, I had someone else ride her for 30 days. Not really training, just working on her balance and coordination at the canter. It made a HUGE difference. She is more confident at the canter and isn't all over the place.*** In the first two years of having her, I believe I spent more time on the ground then on her. Those sharp, out of nowhere spooks are difficult to sit and stay on. It all became extremely frustrating at one point, I looked to lease her out to someone with more confidence that me. But, then, I got to take lessons with another horseperson who really knew about her behavior and could explain it to me when we were in the ring. Kind of like another point of view. Part of her issues were being alone while working and not wanted to work any longer as well. My mare would ride fine in the ring (we both aren't fond of it though) for about a 1/2 hour and then all of a sudden spook at something that had been there the entire time. She injured me and almost herself very badly one time. I had horrible rope burns (who says gloves aren't a good idea!), she was tearing around the ring with the saddle flapping under her belly and lost a shoe all in a short amount of time. We started practicing circles. Not tight circles, but small, controlled circles. Circles until I could get her to reach the thing she suddenly started spooking at, slowly. Boy, not only did my confidence soar, but hers did as well. I started practicing going out alone (not far) and using the circles or half-halting and calm communication with her. There was a large tower, an area that looked dark and foreboding and whispy weeds on either side of us. Using all of what I learned, we made it past this area (a huge accomplishment) and back again. She still jigged and was scared, but I didn't have a fear of her bolting for the first time. Since then, I've managed a couple of trail rides and even riding down the road where we previously lived. Road work was almost unheard of because everything to her was going to eat her. But, we managed a very nice, calm, short road ride past mailboxes, a man mowing his lawn, decorative wagon wheels and a weird blow up Budweiser thing on the side of the road. It gave us both confidence I believe. I rode out that day looking ahead, not letting myself wonder to other things, just focusing on the ride at hand, being relaxed. I feel that during that ride, my seat and confidence made all the difference in the world. My mare is still learning to spook in place but it has taken almost two years of working with her (she is almost 7 now). I also feel that she has matured as well. Due to my situation, I haven't been able to ride her very much over the past year. But, I believe everything we went through has made a huge difference. I took her out of the field last week and w/in 15 minutes, she was riding like a normal horse. No signs of arabyness, no spookiness. It was lovely. Good luck and please post about improvements you make. (I swear I made paragraphs in this, sorry if it's hard to read)

[SarhasMom]

Just wanted to add that I've had problems bitting my mare in the past. Truth be told, she can't handle a bit in her mouth, even the most 'sensitive' bit. I finally got a bitless bridle and it is working wonders with her as well. I've tried the hacks, rope bridles, etc. She was just too sensitive to handle these and some of the materials they were made out of (long story on her sensitivities). The new bitless she got is beta and nylon and I saw an immediate improvement on the first ride with it.

[matryoshka]

It's great when we find what works best for our horses!

[JaneeneSings]

When I was participating in endurance in Europe, ages ago, the rules were no horse could participate that was under six and many horses didn't start competing until older.
We started most arabians at four and did light trail riding the first summer, more the next summer and finally considered them mature enough at six to start them in competitions.
I am surprised you have been participating with a five year old.:confused:


I thought this, too. My just turned 6-yr-old Arabian mare and I have done lots of trailrides and worked some cattle, but we are just now legging up for our first real endurance ride. ;)

[saratoga]

I started riding my little Arab mare lightly when she turned 4- we did a 12 mile Fun Ride held with an endurance ride that fall. Then I did a couple of 25s with her the years she was 5. We go really slow, though, take pretty close to the full time to complete. Then I did a very slow 50 with her at the end of her 6 year old year. I think I'm bringing her along at a good pace, the key is not to go too fast, I think.