kicking chains

[Forte]

ok, not an entirely dressage related post . . . My 4 year old dressage horse kicks the snot out her stall, particularly during feeding time. I know she is happiest when she is living outside 24/7, but at this time in order to get top notch training, she must stay at my trainer's barn, which means being in a stall at night. She is out in a large field with another mare for about 8 hours a day, so it's not like she's locked in her stall all the time. She mainly kicks the stall during breakfast and turnout time, but also will kick if I put her in her stall for any reason during the day when all the other horses are out. (ie. waiting for the farrier, or just want to chuck her in her stall for a minute while I do something.) My trainer has suggested putting kicking chains on her. I have never used these before. Are they effective at stopping kicking? Most importantly, are they safe and humane for the horse?
Thanks, Forte

[Fourfootedfriend]

Just a suggestion, try a calming product. I have a retired TB gelding who is a horrible stall kicker and we have him on vitamin B. It's about $9 for a container that lasts about a month and does a great job keeping him quiet and happy.
I have thought about trying kicking chains previously too but couldn't make myself do that to him, he's had a rough life and just didn't feel right with it.

[MistyBlue]

Kick chains can be a decent short term fix for stall kicking, to use while the habit is being trained out. I've used them on and off over the years, most recently about 5 years ago when I bought my mare. She was a stall kicker and pacer...the barn where I was boarding had gorgeous antique wood floors and stall walls. Not only was she damaging that beautiful old barn, she was loud as heck! (pacing with shoes on a hard wood floor is pretty darned loud since pacing wears through the bedding)
While I was figuring out how to stop her habits, I did put kick chains on her hind legs short term so the poor BO could get some sleep at night. (he could hear her kicking and pacing all night in his nearby house)
She hated the chains, didn't pace or kick with them.
You could try using them until your young horse gets used to being in or until you figure out the cause of the kicking. I wouldn't recommend them as a long-term fix, they're more of a short term bandaid.
Also watch your young horse closely if trying the kick chains. It can sometimes make horses more nervous, some horses won't lay down and rest in them, some will stand in one spot all night or only move their front legs and end up sore from being still and standing all night. (and tired) Make sure the kick chain collars are fleece lined and put on in the right spot on the leg and not too tight. Be forewarned that some horses don't care if they have chains on and still kick.
A good way to "fix" stall kicking is to loosely hang lightweight rubber mats on the stalls walls. Attach with screws and washers (you need washers or the rubber mats tear at the screw hole over time) at the top of the mats and let the bottoms hang loose. The rubber mats not only muffle the noise, but many horses do not like the feeling of kicking the bouncy stuff or the horses give up kicking when they can't make that loud ringing noise. The mats also help mitigate any damage the horse can cause to it's own legs and the stall walls.
Also check moving your horse's stall location, many times kicking can be caused by incompatible horses near each other. This is especially noticeable during feeding times as horses stalled next to each other can't control who eats first as they would if turned loose. If your horse is alpha over it's neighbor and the neighbor is getting fed first or eating at the same time so closely this can piss off your horse who is just trying to establish herd position. (which was the cause for my mare's stall kicking, took 3 different neighbors to find one that was submissive enough to not piss her off during eating times)
Good luck, hope this helps. I really wouldn't use them long term and hanging mats is so much better as a stall wall protector/leg protector/sound muffler.

[Obi]

My guy kicks his stall and I HATE it. I try not to enable him or encourage his nasty little habit so I feed him first, hay and grain. Some boarding facilities used to feed him last which would just p*ss him off to no end and make him madder. If he is fed first, he quiets down faster and does not kick. I have kicking chains for him and have used them but not too sure if I would do it again if I had to. Tough choice but if she is hurting herself or the stall, I would probably go that route if that was the case.

[mandalea]

Try to avoid the chains, and she could actually do alot more damage to herself and the stall if she has them on, as she may try to kick out more to get them off, and possibly flip and not be able to get back up ( I've seen it happen)

Have you tried some toys to take her focus off it??

I find home made ones are better than brought ones, because the horses often pay more attention to them, and they're cheaper

When my gelding hurt his shoulder, he had to be yarded 24/7, and would try and run around, making his shoulder worse. I filled an empty plastic Coke bottle (can't remeber what size, but it wa one of the smaller ones you can get from deli's and gas stations) with sunflower seeds, tied some twine to it and hung it from a tree. He flicked it around until all the seeds fell out and ate them.

Hope you find out a solution =]

[BaroquePony]

Posted by mandalea:

possibly flip and not be able to get back up

Not doubting you at all, but how does a horse manage to flip with kicking chains on and not be able to get up afterward?

Just trying to visualize the sequence.

Amazing what they can do when upset.

[libgrrl]

I have one that has worn them on both hinds since he changed barns.

I was a bit queasy about it at first, but I really haven't seen any adverse effects from him wearing them. He seems to move around, lay down, and generally behave the way he did before. He's become pretty smart about negotiating his space while being "shackled." He also gets a *lot* of turnout, so it is certainly not as if he has to wear the things 24/7.

They don't "train" the behavior out of them, however -- or at least they haven't with my guy. He knows when they are on. I equate it to wearing a crib strap -- it just curtails the behavior when the "preventative" is in place.

[mickeydoodle]

We had a horse in the barn who kicked so hard that he fractured his hoof, very difficult injury, laid him off for a long time.

After he got this injury he got kicking chains- they worked great and prevented him from hurting himself.

[JustMyStyle]

Growing up at Morgan barns half the horses had kick chains, I never saw any injuries from them. The only problem I ever encountered was my last horse who managed to get them off and hide them in his water bucket :winkgrin:. Also, my mare can be a terrible kicker and also runs at the walls with her mouth open. I find putting her in a stall with no other horses near by helps. I think for her it is a bit of a territorial thing, but might be worth a try.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by JustMyStyle:

The only problem I ever encountered was my last horse who managed to get them off and hide them in his water bucket :winkgrin:

:lol:

[egontoast]

I think someone already mentioned this but hanging rubber mats work. A bit of work to set them up but effective. Even if the horse decides to kick them, he will not injure himself and it's quiet!

We did this for one mare that was a chronic stallkicker and had an old rear pastern injury so stallkicking was not a good thing for her to do. We only put them on one wall because she only kicked one wall. She was in an end stall and only kicked the wall towards the other horses. Never kicked the front or back wall. The horse owner supplied the mats. We used 2 mats horizontally and overlapped them rather than cut them so they could be recycled for other uses later.

Mats are hung several inches out from the wall so there is nothing solid to kick. We strung a 2 by 6 , I think?, across, well supported on each end - nailed blocks under them, because they are heavy. Mats were attached to the 2x6 using large screws and washers to prevent tearing.

Worked like a charm.:)

.

[coloredhorse]

They can be quite effective, but not always. Some years ago, I had a little mare who had to be on stall rest. She kicked incessantly and was doing serious damage to her stall, not to mention shearing her hind shoes off and capping her hocks. She actually kicked worse with the chains on ... until she figured out how to get them off. (At least then, she would spend some time working to get them off ... and not kicking. :rolleyes:)

Not saying you shouldn't try ... just a caution that there might be the occasional case where they don't stop the kicking.

[AZ TD]

I think they are considered shackles and are considered cruelty in USEF rules, so you would not be able to use them in a stall at a USEF recognized show.
Theresa

[flshgordon]

I have absolutely used them on my older mare before. I only used one because she always used the same leg to kick when she was unhappy about something. It never bothered her one bit, she still ate, drank, walked around, laid down to sleep, etc.

And I can't imagine how a kicking chain could be considered "shackles" since they don't impede the horse from doing anything (my mare would still calmly pick up her legs even, she just wouldn't fire one off at the wall :D) I'd like to see the actual rule stating that a kicking chain falls under anything to do with cruelty.

I'm sure they don't solve the kicking in every case, but it's an easy thing to try and at least doesn't involve any sort of chemicals or medication.

[katie16]

Generally, I have had success with using kick chains. For the horse that is a bugger at feed time, the trick is to get them on a bit before feed time (or when horse thinks feed time should be) so that they are more of a preventative rather than stopping while feeding and putting them on after the fact. We take them off after feeding. I have had one "brain dead" horse that was totally and completely unphased by them. Could not have cared less! But generally, I have found them effective. Usually, we try to work around the issue if possible - like bringing the horse inside after the meal has been served - if possible. Sometimes having a neighbor that they like can help the anxiety of being in "alone", or staying away from another neighbor that they dislike can help too. Whenever we get a new horse in, there can often be a juggling of stalls to get things worked out so that everyone is happy.

I would give them a try.

[Valentina_32926]

My trainer has suggested putting kicking chains on her. I have never used these before. Are they effective at stopping kicking? Most importantly, are they safe and humane for the horse?
Thanks, Forte

Safe as long as taken off before horse leaves stall, NOT for turn-out. Effective for my mare. Humane? - Yes - never left a mark, I think it was equatable to popping horse with a whip to go forward.

Currently don't use them (haven't in about 2 years) but found - at least in the beginning - I kep on for about 1 month then left off until she tried again, put them on as a reminder for 2 days then off again. Periodically I'll put them back on as a reminder but as she's smart I think she's stopped (at least for now :lol:).

[Auventera Two]

My one experience with them was a success. It was for a young TB mare. The first time she kicked out with the chains on it fixed the problem. But then she was quite smart and never needed many repetitions to figure something out.

[Mozart]

Not doubting you at all, but how does a horse manage to flip with kicking chains on and not be able to get up afterward?

Just trying to visualize the sequence.

Amazing what they can do when upset.

Maybe if one chain got wrapped around the other leg or the chains got tangled together?

[TSWJB]

i used kicking chains with 100% success! my horse never kicked at his old barn because he was out rain or shine 365 a year. but we had mud paddocks. and when he was in at night he was fine. plus he had high walls and could not see the other horse next to him.
when i moved barns to get better training, they had bars in between the stalls. my horse did not like it. and there was much less turn out time. and i installed the mats and he kicked through them. so installed more mats with puffy mats on top. he kicked through those and through the boards. so i put kicking chains on only in the stall. and he was fine. stopped kicking. and he didnt seem to mind. my trainer had said that the damage too his legs was far worst than him wearing a chain. and he was fine with them. he did not care. but we always took them off before leaving the stall.

[stablgrl]

I have a 2 yr old who has just recently adopted this behavior. I know that he is bored, but he doesnt spend that much time in the barn. He has a large grass turn out to play in and other horses are brought in and out thru the day to play with him. HIs worst time is first thing in the morning if he has been stalled that night. I have not decided if I will use kicking chains or not but if I do please tell me whether to put them around his ankles or above his hocks, I have heard both.

[in limine]

egontoast,
Thanks for providing a unique solution that didn't include causing additional trauma to the horse. Good on ya!

[in limine]

Dictionary definition of cruelty: deliberate infliction of pain. Enough said. I just don't understand justifying the treatment of a horse that is intended to cause pain.

[AZ TD]

USEF GR 839 gives some examples of cruelty:
4. The following acts are included under the words Cruelty and Abuse but are not limited
thereto:
a. Excessive use of a whip on any horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition
ring or elsewhere on the competition grounds, before or during a competition, by any
person. Except in emergency situations, any striking of the horse’s head (on the poll
and forward of the poll) with the whip shall be deemed excessive.
b. Rapping the legs of a horse with the butt end of a riding crop or other implement.
c. Use of any substance to induce temporary heat.
d. Manual poling with any object other than a bamboo pole.
e. Use of a wire or chain in conjunction with any schooling jump.
f. Use of electric device in schooling or showing.
g. Use of shackles, hock hobbles and similar devices (not to be construed as rubber or
elastic exercising devices).
h. Showing a horse with raw or bleeding sores around the coronets, pasterns or legs.
i. Use of any explosive (e.g., fire crackers, torpedoes, fire extinguishers except in
case of fire, etc.) or laser beam devices anywhere on the competition grounds, except
in an exhibition or if required in class specifications.
j. Withholding of feed and water for prolonged periods.
k. Letting blood from a horse for other than diagnostic purposes.
l. Inhumane treatment of a horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition ring or
elsewhere on the competition grounds, by any person.
Theresa

[goeslikestink]

your horse needs to learn some manners, go back to basics

they are not common thing to use in uk in fact idont know anyone that does i certainly havent

there is serveral things you can do, 1st take the horse of the grain so the horse calms down
as new springy grass and grain and not enought blows a horses mind away
and if its not getting the work to compensate the grian used will go to its head

so take the grain away wont kill the horse, then once work has been established you feed according to the work given, trial and error till a happy medium for both ie id she goes back to being a doungnut re duce the intake of grian and visa versa it will take about 3 weeks before you see any difference

grooming is bonding and so is picking up feet only a daily basics
if the mare i pressume kicks out whilse handling, pick out the LF foot 1st then Lh then RH then RF-- as most are good on front legs so start and end with a good foot
this then instills in her mind its a good idea when you put her to bed or put her out she will associate the hinds with the fronts,
tuck yourself into side as in as close as you can get then pcik up the hind foot do not hesistate as thats telling the mare you lack confidence and its a trust issue so be assertive and positive and praze the horse for being good
if however she doing at you thats naughty - so 1- stuff her under the hose pipe full power
until she stops as she can kick out as much as she likes and will eventually give up

and buy a kids water pistol-- every time she goes to do something naughty as kick outs
then shoot her with the water pistol

and you can do this when shes in the stable short sharp shock-

add a bar nose hieght to her stable door, this stops her leanng out and lunging at everyone
and also has the illusion of being bigger door, so she cant see whats going on around her
then move water feed and haynets to front of stable

when you go in as for back-- and stand- she should move awayfrom the door as when you take the bar out will make noise and she will automatacally back off due to not wanting to get hit with the bar-- ( a simple wood bar with wooden slots to slide it in and out)
as it comes out.
if she doesnt then get hold of your mate the broom turn him upside dwon
tap floor and ask for back and stand, use your tones of voice--
if she still doesnt then arm outstrectched with your mate the broom tap floor and ask again
she should then move away from the door

once she does then feed her----but tap floor with broom and say wait and stand
the horse will

why beucase your bigger than she is-- you have created an illusion your much bigger


don not feed treats as this mare will only be nice for the sweety

by doing what i have surgested one they are creating illusions in th ehorse mind you bigger and alpha

the bar over the door create an illussion the door bigger, she cant get her head over
to have or to lunge at people-- and get herself worked up-

by taking awa the grian you have taken away her fuel thats over feeding her mind

by not giving sweets-- you have not encourage or rewarded a bad behavour making it ten times worse

by using water-- you have given her the message your alpha without the need to restrict
or hit or hurt her

by- using your tones of voice you have given her the message when your please and when your cross - a line that all horses kids and humans learn not to do or do with
ie--guide lines

use your tones of voice horses hate namby pamby people they dont understand baby talk
they like to be spoken to like you would another human, they like pats and stuff, they like rountines and they love to work

your feeds a reward the bed the stable and the envrioment it lives in even work is a reward
if used in the right manner as horses love to go out and work


and lastly change your own attitude to assertive, as most of the time why ahorse kicks out is becuae the owner lets boss them for a simpe exsample as you quoted it your self

she stood still for the farrier and was good, that tells me shes not always good at picking her feet up-- and kicks out so therefore follows on to the stable and walking all over you

as she has your no-- and more than likely is fed up to the nines with so much grub and not enought work -- she kicks out in a temper tamtrum

so cut it out, be boss and put her in her place with awater pistol and say oik me me boss you horse

[ltw]

I do not believe kicking chains are cruel. What is more damaging and hurtful is to have your horse break their hock or fracture their coffin bone from kicking. The kicking chain is irritating to the horse but not painful if used correctly. The kicking of the walls will inflict much worse damage then using kicking chains judiciously.

I have used them successfully on two horses. I have also hung the rubber mats on the walls. That did not stop the kicking but helped protect the horses. Kicking chains are not shackles. Shackles are when a person or animals legs are tied together. This I would never do as it would be dangerous.

The kicking chain I use is a strap with fleece covering, it attaches around the pastern. The strap and buckle are 100% covered in a thick fleece The chain is very light weight metal and about 4-6 inches long. Possibly made of aluminum. It makes noise when they kick but does not damage their legs in any way. Both horses (previous stallion and mare) responded immediately and stopped kicking. I put it on for a day (only in stall) during feeding time and then took it off. I did not have to put them back on for about 2-3 weeks. If i heard them kick one time (3 weeks later) it went back on again for a day. This pattern seems to repeat about 2-3 times and then stopped. They are good for a few weeks and then need a reminder session once in a while.

[Spectrum]

your horse needs to learn some manners, go back to basics

they are not common thing to use in uk in fact idont know anyone that does i certainly havent

there is serveral things you can do, 1st take the horse of the grain so the horse calms down
as new springy grass and grain and not enought blows a horses mind away
and if its not getting the work to compensate the grian used will go to its head

so take the grain away wont kill the horse, then once work has been established you feed according to the work given, trial and error till a happy medium for both ie id she goes back to being a doungnut re duce the intake of grian and visa versa it will take about 3 weeks before you see any difference

grooming is bonding and so is picking up feet only a daily basics
if the mare i pressume kicks out whilse handling, pick out the LF foot 1st then Lh then RH then RF-- as most are good on front legs so start and end with a good foot
this then instills in her mind its a good idea when you put her to bed or put her out she will associate the hinds with the fronts,
tuck yourself into side as in as close as you can get then pcik up the hind foot do not hesistate as thats telling the mare you lack confidence and its a trust issue so be assertive and positive and praze the horse for being good
if however she doing at you thats naughty - so 1- stuff her under the hose pipe full power
until she stops as she can kick out as much as she likes and will eventually give up

and buy a kids water pistol-- every time she goes to do something naughty as kick outs
then shoot her with the water pistol

and you can do this when shes in the stable short sharp shock-

add a bar nose hieght to her stable door, this stops her leanng out and lunging at everyone
and also has the illusion of being bigger door, so she cant see whats going on around her
then move water feed and haynets to front of stable

when you go in as for back-- and stand- she should move awayfrom the door as when you take the bar out will make noise and she will automatacally back off due to not wanting to get hit with the bar-- ( a simple wood bar with wooden slots to slide it in and out)
as it comes out.
if she doesnt then get hold of your mate the broom turn him upside dwon
tap floor and ask for back and stand, use your tones of voice--
if she still doesnt then arm outstrectched with your mate the broom tap floor and ask again
she should then move away from the door

once she does then feed her----but tap floor with broom and say wait and stand
the horse will

why beucase your bigger than she is-- you have created an illusion your much bigger


don not feed treats as this mare will only be nice for the sweety

by doing what i have surgested one they are creating illusions in th ehorse mind you bigger and alpha

the bar over the door create an illussion the door bigger, she cant get her head over
to have or to lunge at people-- and get herself worked up-

by taking awa the grian you have taken away her fuel thats over feeding her mind

by not giving sweets-- you have not encourage or rewarded a bad behavour making it ten times worse

by using water-- you have given her the message your alpha without the need to restrict
or hit or hurt her

and lastly change your own attitude to assertive, as most of the time why ahorse kicks out is becuae the owner lets boss them for a simpe exsample as you quoted it your self


as she has your no-- and more than likely is fed up to the nines with so much grub and not enought work -- she kicks out in a temper tamtrum

so cut it out, be boss and put her in her place with awater pistol and say oik me me boss you horse

That's a nice idea, but I've seen crabby horses turned into complete cuckoos by having their grain taken away, physically punished for kicking and ideas similar to what you're stating above.

I've also seen kicking chains used with great humane success.

Case in point- a mare at a stable where I used to work. This facility was run strictly for the well-being of the horses. Pasture horses were manually fly-sprayed multiple times per day by staff, horses of top quality received every vet and joint care available, another horse had stall mats on the walls, which cured his kicking.

Said mare would run laps in her stall constantly and kick incessantly while inside, working herself into a complete frenzy if her kicking chains were forgotten. If they were put on, she'd eat quietly and act like a totally normal horse. In the months I put the chains on and took them off each day when she came in/was turned out, I saw only a couple of tiny nicks (ie. the size of a pinkie nail) where the fur had been nicked off due to a random kick. The chains used were large-width nylon dog collars that had extra holes punched so the loops were just large enough that they were loose on her pasterns but too large to be pressed around her fetlock or foot and cut off circulation. Attached to each were about 6 inches of heavy chain. The mare was quite careful not to step on them and was always wonderful about having them put on and taken off (you'd think if they were torturing her she would have been touchy, right?).

When I first saw them I worried they must chafe due to the lack of padding, however I think that having them loose as they were actually helped with that as the mare never showed any signs of problems. And her owner was an extremely conscientious woman who had taken the mare when someone else was ready to put her down due to her nutty behavior in the barn. In her case, the kicking chains were her lifesaver (literally).

Spectrum.

[goeslikestink]

spectrum if the horse was taught some manners in the 1st place wouldnt need to result to kicking chains

and taking the food away wont hurt the horse you up and ab lib the hay side of intake of food

taking the feed away wll make the horse a lot calmer and putting a bar up nose hieght stops the horse from lunginh over and being aggresive and working himself up into a paddy cos he can see whats going on
also could try moving the horse to another box as he might not like the one hes in due to the light, the air, the yard ie is it bissy is it quiet, is lots of stuff form him to worry about as in horses coming and going kids comming and going so antagonises the horse
is the stable near noises like big machines and stuff some horses dont like it
so look at what you got and see what he see from inside his stable

[alterhelpeater]

I think they are considered shackles and are considered cruelty in USEF rules, so you would not be able to use them in a stall at a USEF recognized show.
Theresa

I really don't think they would be considered shackles. I believe shackles are far different.

[AZ TD]

I believe kicking chains are considered shackles. If you are going to use them at a USEF show you should probably contact USEF, send them a picture, and get it in writing (dispensation certificate). What do you think is the difference between a shackle, hobble, kicking chain? I think they are the pretty much the different versions of a shackle---they restrain movement of the legs. Theresa

[alterhelpeater]

Kicking chains simply attach to the leg, but, a shackle attaches to each hoof or is also known as a running W. It can be cruel but then again so can any sort of equipment that is used poorly if you want my opinion. I know that I have used kick chains at USEF shows but I guess dressage shows are a whole new ball of ear wax:eek: I would guess if you come right down to it halters and cross ties restrain movement so it can get very very confusing at those dressage shows!:confused: Wow!!!

[AZ TD]

Kicking chains simply attach to the leg, but, a shackle attaches to each hoof or is also known as a running W. It can be cruel but then again so can any sort of equipment that is used poorly if you want my opinion. I know that I have used kick chains at USEF shows but I guess dressage shows are a whole new ball of ear wax:eek: I would guess if you come right down to it halters and cross ties restrain movement so it can get very very confusing at those dressage shows!:confused: Wow!!!

I said that shackles restrain the movement of the LEGS. At dressage shows the halters are around the horses HEADS, thus the difference. Just because you have used them at USEF shows, does not mean they are legal, just no one has questioned it.
Theresa

[alterhelpeater]

ok yikes you offically scare me...whatever you say is correct:eek::eek:

[ltw]

http://buysaddles.com/catalog/Hobbles-203-1.html


If you go to this link you can see the difference between Hobbles (aka Shackles) and Kicking chains. YOU SAY THAT SHACKLES ARE ILLEGAL AT RECOGNIZED SHOWS....... IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOBBLES AKA SHACKLES AND KICKING CHAINS. THERE IS A DISTINCT DIFFERENCE AND PURPOSE BETWEEN BOTH DEVICES.

TYPICALLY HOBBLES ARE USED WHEN BREEDING A MARE LIVE COVER THAT MAY KICK THE SNOT OUT OF A VALUABLE STALLION.

[goeslikestink]

either way its restriction, and not in my book worthy ,
i have never ever reverted to restricting any horses movement in a stable, ever in all my 30 odd years of trianing or re habing horses and here in uk is a very rare thing never hear of anyone using a kicking chain what so ever

op-- a good horseman told me to understand your horse 1st get close to your horse

that sentence has more than one meaning

if you want to try to help your horse, then look at his stable the way you keep him and what you do to him,
most its human error, when you find the cause then you can sort the problem
i have given you a few surgestions of what to look for to help you help the horse

restriction will cause a fear factor in a horses mind as there 1st thought is one of flight if restrcited then the next is advasion- hesistation, doubts and confusion lead to the same fear factor in a horses mind

[Sithly]

Kicking chains simply attach to the leg, but, a shackle attaches to each hoof or is also known as a running W. It can be cruel but then again so can any sort of equipment that is used poorly if you want my opinion. I know that I have used kick chains at USEF shows but I guess dressage shows are a whole new ball of ear wax:eek: I would guess if you come right down to it halters and cross ties restrain movement so it can get very very confusing at those dressage shows!:confused: Wow!!!

A running W is completely different. Not even in the same ballpark as hobbles or kicking chains. Just FYI. :)

[NoDQhere]

Interesting thread here. It seems that people have a lot of different ideas on kicking chains, hobbles and the like.

A Running W is a device developed as a way to stop a horse. It attaches to the front fetlocks, has a rope that runs through a "girth" ring and to the handler. It enables the handler to pull the front legs out from under a horse to stop it. Would we ever use one? No. Too dangerous for the horse and really has no place in a decent training situation.

Kicking Chains do not restrict the horses movement in any way as they hang free from a fetlock strap. IMO, they are far more humane than letting a horse cripple itself by kicking. Have we ever used them? No, because we have never had a stall kicker. But we would if we ever had the need. We know an instance where a kicking mare broke her leg because she kicked so hard.

Hobbles are probably the most misunderstood piece of equipment in the horse industry. They are not inhumane, but horses need to be hobble trained on very soft ground in a quiet and low key way. Every young horse on this farm has been hobble trained. Why? Because not being afraid of having it's legs restricted and not being afraid of ropes around it's legs can save a horse from serious injury if they ever become tangled in something. It also makes it much safer for the Vet, Farrier or who ever is handling the horse. I'm always surprised at people who will tranq a horse for routine things like clipping, but think training them to stand in hobbles is awful :no:.

[flshgordon]

I believe kicking chains are considered shackles. If you are going to use them at a USEF show you should probably contact USEF, send them a picture, and get it in writing (dispensation certificate). What do you think is the difference between a shackle, hobble, kicking chain? I think they are the pretty much the different versions of a shackle---they restrain movement of the legs. Theresa

Explain to me please how a kicking chain restrains movement of the legs? Unless you are putting 2 kicking chains on and tying them together in the middle, then you are incorrect. A horse can move their legs all day long with kicking chains on. In fact, the mare I used one on still moved around her stall a lot, laid down, scratched, ate, drank, etc. We could even take her out of the stall with the chain on and take it off in the aisle and she walked perfectly FINE in it. She just didn't KICK with it on.....so I fail to see how this in any way restricts a horses movement other than to kick at something and USEF does not protect a horse's right to kick the wall and break a bone or slice a tendon.

GLS---I can't actually believe that you think you can withold food from a horses and train it not to kick. May happen eventually, but you will probably have starved the horse to death by the time it works, or the horse will have become so agitated that it will have injured itself severely before that happens. Horses kick for hay too so you are going to withold all food? Excellent way to give the horse severe ulcers or cause it to colic. This is a bad idea all the way around.

[Sithly]

Hobbles are probably the most misunderstood piece of equipment in the horse industry. They are not inhumane, but horses need to be hobble trained on very soft ground in a quiet and low key way. Every young horse on this farm has been hobble trained. Why? Because not being afraid of having it's legs restricted and not being afraid of ropes around it's legs can save a horse from serious injury if they ever become tangled in something. It also makes it much safer for the Vet, Farrier or who ever is handling the horse.

Totally agree. Which reminds me that I still need to do that with my horse. I keep meaning to, but haven't gotten around to it. I think it's a valuable thing to teach.

[ltw]

I have a mare that kicks the wall at feeding time. She kicked a hole in the metal automatic waterer. She is a wonderful mare in every other way and by the way she gets plenty of turnout (14 hours a day) and ridden 5-6 days a week. In order to cure her from this I put kicking chains on her twice in the last 2 weeks. EAch leg has a kicking chain around the pastern., Her legs are not attached together. They do not restrict her movement in any way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I put them on for one day. She can walk in and out of the stall with them on to the grooming area where I can remove them. They work. After one day of using them she no longer kicks the wall. She is a valuable mare that I compete in dressage. It is worth it to me to ensure she does not fracture her leg or her coffin bone. The kicking chains do not hurt her, they are mentally irritating enough to her that she has figured out in one day not to kick at feeding time.

I know of a mare that fractured her hock and had to be put down due to kicking. I am not going to take a chance like that. The kicking chains are a Godsend.

[goeslikestink]

Explain to me please how a kicking chain restrains movement of the legs? Unless you are putting 2 kicking chains on and tying them together in the middle, then you are incorrect. A horse can move their legs all day long with kicking chains on. In fact, the mare I used one on still moved around her stall a lot, laid down, scratched, ate, drank, etc. We could even take her out of the stall with the chain on and take it off in the aisle and she walked perfectly FINE in it. She just didn't KICK with it on.....so I fail to see how this in any way restricts a horses movement other than to kick at something and USEF does not protect a horse's right to kick the wall and break a bone or slice a tendon.

GLS---I can't actually believe that you think you can withold food from a horses and train it not to kick. May happen eventually, but you will probably have starved the horse to death by the time it works, or the horse will have become so agitated that it will have injured itself severely before that happens. Horses kick for hay too so you are going to withold all food? Excellent way to give the horse severe ulcers or cause it to colic. This is a bad idea all the way around.



then you have it worng-- i didnt say dont feed the horse did i said take away the grian

to much grain and to much grass makes a horse mind blow- as they gas up

to much grain and not enough work does the same

to much grian and as in over fed and poor or little handling does the same
ie horse eats 3 times a day as big bucket of grian and gets perhaps one hours work
the work is not level with the grian intake
or
horse eats 3 times a day, brought in chucked out ridden at week ends horse is pita becuase its head full of grain as in hot headed there fore would kick out and be hard to handle as so much hot energy food going to his head like giving whiskey to a bloke and he gets rat arsed

your work and feed should be of equal quantity ie what you take out of a horse in work you put back in with grub

if you take the grian away for about 2 weeks as it will take that to come out of the horses system-- the horse will change his attitude and become more relaxed
you up your hay as to ab lib -- as horses can live on hay alone if good quality and not rubbish hay and grass is there natural foder and fibra ie roughage

they have to have that as they plant eaters----------

if you reduce or remove the grian- for 2 weeks till it comes out of the horses system he will be easier to handle then you slowly re introduce the grian to the work given

if the horse goes back to being stupid and obnoxious ie kicking out at all things
or lunging over the doors earsback and biting, or when ridden not always in control then reduce the grian a bit -- if how ever the horse lacks energy when ridden in crease the grain abit

people should read whats on the back of a packet or feed bag as to much of this and not enough of that can either overlaod or under load a horses system

his gut is what rules the body -- his mind is what you need to get into to rule him
if the horses mind- is soaked up with high ennergy grub -- then hes going to be anaughty horse

its not evil taking away grain-- any good horse perosn will tell you half the problems most people have is becuase a-- they over fed it
b- they dont use the correct food for the type of work given
c- they underfeed
d-- they don understand the contents of grub
e- they dont understand what each foodstuffs given to a horse does
f-- they dont read the packet or bag
g- the suppliment part of feedstuffs is not fully understood
h-- they dont appear to understand what work is-- in relevence to the food given
i-- to feed a horse that been abused dont know to feed little and often and tend to over face the horse
h- each displine has its own exercise and work effects -- and feed are made now adays to
enchance each dispiline or breeding-- or youngstock etc


with holding food isnt to trian the horse its to calm it down -- horses when over loaded with grub will kick out and be aggressive its a natural course of events fore the horse mind to be like that if to much food given

taking the grain away -- will automatically calm the horse and his bad behaviour down hugely and if you did know that then you do now

[CatOnLap]

not saying this applies to the OP, but...
many people resort to things like kicking chains because they will not take the time to solve the problem another way. Training takes time and yes, you can train a horse out of many bad habits including kicking and stall walking, if the habit is not years old. (Cribbing maybe not so much) Putting up rubber matts is effective for many horses as it dampens the noise so the kicking no longer serves the defensive warning to other horses that it is designed to do. But outfitting a stall with wall to wall rubber is several hundred dollars and several hours of time.
Regular daily work (not just turnout) does wonders for a lot of horses but how many on this board ride every day? Changing the stall arrangment can also work, somteims horses do not like their neighbours and will kick at only particular horses.

I had a horse who was a stall pacer-and no longer does it unless she's very upset ( maybe once a month) What worked for her was a well bedded stall, daily work under saddle, grain ration reduced to a handful each feeding ( so she doesn't feel left out) and every time I saw her pacing ( she went clockwise only) I would halter her in her stall and "unwind her" by walking her counter clockwise. Whether it was the added attention or the unwinding her corkscrewed brain, I don't know, but she no longer paces. I had a horse who delighted in pawing...in the trailer. It felt like he was going to unhitch us! BANG BANG BANG. We put a rubber matt at the front of the trailer stall wall and no more pawing.

The potential for damage with kicking chains is greater than other methods mentioned, although it does not compare to a broken hoof or hock, but those serious kicking injuries are rare. I would try other methods before chains.

[JustABay]

I have seen kicking chains used with a double ended snap to tie them together in the middle. The chains were modified with long, heavy chain, ad the horse could walk lie down and get up, whatever it needed but could not kick. This was the only thing that worked on this mare. We tried regular chains, mats, hanging feedbags, tires, using a water gun (it was a big one) smacking her every time she kicked the walls (horribly time consuming) moving her to a stall by herself, she just wouldn't quit-we joked about electrifying the stall walls or using her for a demolitions crew to level buildings. Although not the nicest method, it worked.

[Sithly]

24/7 turnout is the best answer, but kicking chains will work for the short term. I wouldn't use them long term, personally.

We had an older horse at our barn who wore kicking chains in the stall (we offered the owners 24/7 turnout, but they wouldn't take it). They boarded with us for years, then moved the horse down the road to a different barn. One night, the barn staff forgot to put his kicking chains on, and the horse KICKED THROUGH the barn wall and ended up stuck -- half in, half out of the barn. :eek: They called my BO to come over with his backhoe and extract the horse from the splintered wall. The horse had, of course, majorly sliced his back legs, which took ages to heal.

He eventually came back to our barn, where he lived out the rest of his days with his kicking chains on every night. He had thick, nasty callouses around his pasterns, and he was eventually put down because of a cellulitis-type infection in his back leg.

[FelixLeiter]

A friend of mine up in PA recently cured a horse of a stall kicking habit. She bought some new device that has just been launched called quit kick or somesuch. She loves it and even gave the company that makes it a quote for their website. I don't know anything about it really, just spoke to her a couple of weeks ago and she mentioned it. Might be worth finding out about..

[Bats79]

24/7 turnout is the best answer, but kicking chains will work for the short term. I wouldn't use them long term, personally.

We had an older horse at our barn who wore kicking chains in the stall (we offered the owners 24/7 turnout, but they wouldn't take it). They boarded with us for years, then moved the horse down the road to a different barn. One night, the barn staff forgot to put his kicking chains on, and the horse KICKED THROUGH the barn wall and ended up stuck -- half in, half out of the barn. :eek: They called my BO to come over with his backhoe and extract the horse from the splintered wall. The horse had, of course, majorly sliced his back legs, which took ages to heal.

He eventually came back to our barn, where he lived out the rest of his days with his kicking chains on every night. He had thick, nasty callouses around his pasterns, and he was eventually put down because of a cellulitis-type infection in his back leg.

Now that is exceptionally sad! :( To be offered an option and REFUSE to take it yet keep a horse that is highly stressed in the environment that causes that stress - For a barn owner and caring person that must have been very hard. Don't think I would have managed.

[Invite]

When Rubianna entered her terrible twos, she became a terror at feeding time. Mind you, the red beast had hay. She just got pissy waiting for her paltry serving of grain. I was afraid she might get hurt from kicking at feeding time, so I bought her some kicking chains. Believe it or not, the chains made her worse!!!! I actually believe she liked the sound and just kicked more.

I stopped using the chains and Miss Priss has a padded stall. Now when she gets aggrivated, she attacks her Jolly Ball which happens to hang from the wall by one of her no longer used kicking chains...I did remove the fleece so she wouldn't gnaw it off and choke on it. She seems to get a lot more joy out of smushing the JB with her butt, spinning around and watching it re-inflate then she did with kicking.

Now that the stall is padded, Rubianna rarely kicks. I don't know if it's because the padding muffles her kicks or if it's just because she's older. In Rubianna's case, she really seems to enjoy noises. I know I might sound insane, but if you met her you would believe me...I think ;)

I had a TB mare who hated being groomed. She was constantly picking up her hind legs and threatening to kick me. I put the chains on this mare about 3 times for grooming sessions and her threats of kicking became almost non existant.

[slc2]

The best way to keep a horse from kicking at feeding time is to put them in a solid partition stall so they don't have other horses within their vision during feeding.

I don't really think it's something you can scold a horse for or teach them not to do by taking away food or broom training them. It's more instinctive than that.

The kicking chains stop them or reduce the kicking because they cause immediate discomfort.

[mbm]

fwiw, i have seen kick chains that are linked together so they are, in effect, shackles - the horse would walk in a weird way - with his hind legs spread out to take up the slack in the chains...

my only other comment is: why do you think the horse wont kick with just the "regular" kick chains on? - if you have ever been walloped on your shins with a chain you will get an idea is what it feels like (not pleasant)

[Valentina_32926]

My Dutch mare used to kick the side of the stall next to the pony - especially while waiting for food. I purchased kicking chains, she kicked and got "hit" with chain on the leg that kicked, she stopped kicking.

I haven't used them in years - and the last time I used them I only put them on one evening before dinner. She remembered she's not supposed to kick and problem was solved.

The kicking chains don't hurt any more than a pop with the whip. Just remember and make sure everyone knows the horse can NOT be turned out with them on. They're fine for inside a larger sized stall but NOT where horse can run, etc.

Mine are coverd with fleece where they wrap around her "shins", the chains hang down from there. Not a big deal but they have been HIGHLY effective on this mare.

Great idea to get horse accustomed to being in a stall - when horse is shown they'll be inside the stall for longer periods of time - and you can take kicking chains to a show in case your horse doesn't care for the horse stabled next to it - better tha chains "rap" the horse than the horse kick concrete or wood - possibly damaging their legs as well as the barn.

[bort84]

I've worked with a lot of horses that basically lived in kicking or pawing chains. I grew up riding saddle seat, and those horses are not turned out during show season, so perhaps that's why I've happened upon more that needed kicking chains.

Anyway, all of the horses got used to them very quickly and just learned to step around their stall carefully to keep the chain from hitting them. So the chain only comes into effect when they kick or paw. All of them had fleece around the ankle cuff, and nobody ever had any problems.

I totally agree that you should try other things as well, but if your horse is already on turnout, gets fed first, and has an appropriate diet, kicking chains may be a good option. A couple of the horses I worked with would paw themselves lame with show nerves or kick to the point of laming up something, so the kicking chains were the better alternative.

I really like the idea of padding the walls somehow if you have the means to do it.

[tBHj]

either way its restriction, and not in my book worthy ,
i have never ever reverted to restricting any horses movement in a stable, ever in all my 30 odd years of trianing or re habing horses and here in uk is a very rare thing never hear of anyone using a kicking chain what so ever

op-- a good horseman told me to understand your horse 1st get close to your horse

that sentence has more than one meaning

if you want to try to help your horse, then look at his stable the way you keep him and what you do to him,
most its human error, when you find the cause then you can sort the problem
i have given you a few surgestions of what to look for to help you help the horse

restriction will cause a fear factor in a horses mind as there 1st thought is one of flight if restrcited then the next is advasion- hesistation, doubts and confusion lead to the same fear factor in a horses mind

You are looney.

I put a kick chain on my horse and she is not afraid of it. She walks around, eats and drinks normally. It comes off when she is turned out.

If she was afraid of it I'm sure she would either stand still, be shaking & sweaty or flip her shit and loose her mind.

In regards to 'knowing your horse'. I know my horse.. well. Honestly there is no way that I am going to be able to train this out of her. It's her personality, she's high strung.. very aware and when she gets pissed off she will beat the crap out of her stall.

[mickeydoodle]

You are looney.

I put a kick chain on my horse and she is not afraid of it. She walks around, eats and drinks normally. It comes off when she is turned out.

If she was afraid of it I'm sure she would either stand still, be shaking & sweaty or flip her shit and loose her mind.

In regards to 'knowing your horse'. I know my horse.. well. Honestly there is no way that I am going to be able to train this out of her. It's her personality, she's high strung.. very aware and when she gets pissed off she will beat the crap out of her stall.


I agree fully. We had a horse who kicked his wooden stall so hard he got a crack/bruise that abscessed and took weeks to heal. Put kicking chains on, no kicking. After a few weeks we could take them off and he would not kick for a long time. This was the best solution. Even now at age 24, he will still get into a snit sometimes, out come the chains, it stops, and he is happy agiain. He is only in a stall for a short time for feeding, he cannot see the other horses, it is just a bad habit/compulsion. Like chewing fingernails.