GrandPrix test in a snaffle

[freestyle2music]

I just red an article on TOB about a rider who did an Inter-II test in a snaffle.

Somehow I knew that I had some clients who also send me videotapes where they were riding in snaffle only.

Here is one i found :

http://www.viddler.com/explore/snaketheweb/videos/1027/

I think I have posted this video already some years ago, but I couldn't find the original thread anymore.

Theo

[canyonoak]

Hilda Gurney regularly and often rode Keen in his snaffle, schooling/training everything through the Grand Prix. Keen had the same snaffle on his double as on his snaffle-only bridle (no switch to bradoon).

Sometimes, Keen would hack out on trails in his snaffle, other times the double.

Some horses are very good using the snaffle; others are better with the double.

I do not think it is always a sign of good or bad riding, but more understanding one's horse and recognizing what can and will work.

OTOH, I think it would be nice if FEI allowed FEI-level tests in snaffle. Might be very interesting to see if there is enough interest.

The U.S. used to have Fifth Level, which was exactly that--EI level tests in snaffle.

Noiw, we don't have that any more and I think it is from lack of interest/lack of entries in shows.

Maybe the wheel has turned!

[Carol O]

Dr. Klimke rode his horses in the snaffle, only changing to the double for occasional schooling and showing, because it is required there.

[slc2]

from what i have seen most dressage trainers work their upper level horses in a snaffle at least part of the time, more or less. the rule i was given was no more than 2x a week for the double. i think most trainers tend to do that, unless the horse has some sort of problem.

[Lgd1]

In the UK it is now permitted to ride in snaffle all the way to GP for classes run under national rules.

There was a picture in Horse & Hound recently showing someone doing GP in a snaffle and there are loads doing small tour classes in snaffles now.

[ridgeback]

Why is there a rule that you have to ride certain levels in a double bridle, why can't it be up to the rider.. Forgive me for my ignorance:D

[equinelaw]

Robert Hall trained all his horses up to GP in a plain snaffle. It was against the rules back then, so he refused to show.

[ShannonLee]

I agree with CanyonOak - it doesn't necessarily mean the horse is better trained or ridden when it does a GP in a snaffle. I have one coming GP horse that goes much better in a fat snaffle, and it is my challenge to have him settle and give me that lovely contact in a double. I would relish the opportunity to ride him GP in the snaffle, but it would actually be cheating my final training....

I often ride the horses that are transitioning into the double only in the double for a couple of months until they are confident in it - then depending o the individual I will ride them sometimes in the snaffle and sometimes in the double.

I have no hard and fast rules about how often to ride a horse in the double or snaffle - it is a decision that must take in how the horse is training, what we are focusing on at that moment in the training, and what competitions are coming up.

That being said, every GP horse should be able to be schooled in the snaffle, or there is something seriously lacking in the training of horse and rider.

And thanks Theo for posting the link!

[freestyle2music]

I agree with CanyonOak - it doesn't necessarily mean the horse is better trained or ridden when it does a GP in a snaffle. I have one coming GP horse that goes much better in a fat snaffle, and it is my challenge to have him settle and give me that lovely contact in a double. I would relish the opportunity to ride him GP in the snaffle, but it would actually be cheating my final training....

I often ride the horses that are transitioning into the double only in the double for a couple of months until they are confident in it - then depending o the individual I will ride them sometimes in the snaffle and sometimes in the double.

I have no hard and fast rules about how often to ride a horse in the double or snaffle - it is a decision that must take in how the horse is training, what we are focusing on at that moment in the training, and what competitions are coming up.

That being said, every GP horse should be able to be schooled in the snaffle, or there is something seriously lacking in the training of horse and rider.

And thanks Theo for posting the link!

Isn't she a lovely rider ?

[Eclectic Horseman]

In a recent issue of Dressage Today about the USA's Olympic hopefuls, 3 out of the 4 or 5 pairs discussed were pictured schooling in the snaffle (Debbie McD & Brentina was one, I forget which others were as well.) I was so pleased to see it that I almost wrote a letter to the editor.

When all they see are pictures of the top riders in double bridles, is there any wonder that is what people are replicating (ready or not?)

I'm familiar with a lot of wannabe FEI riders who will not ride in a snaffle, who will not post the trot, and will not take off the rowels because they think that somehow it makes them appear to be a less accomplished rider. :no: I find this frequently to be to the detriment of the horse.

[ridgeback]

What I don't understand is if the horse is being ridden correctly what does it matter if it's a double bridle or a snaffle? If you think it's good that trainers school often in a snaffle are you saying a double is bad? I guess I would ride the horse in what it has to show in since training in a snaffle might not help you when you switch to a double bridle..Taking the horse for a walk in the forest snaffle for sure..

[slc2]

There are a lot of misconceptions in dressage such as not sitting the trot (about the worst thing anyone could do is sit the trot while the horse is not warmed up), wanting to be in the double bridle all the time.

I still don't understand why someone would be surprised or pleased to see Seidel or Peters or Macdonald schooling in a snaffle. I don't think that's unusual at all. I haven't ever seen a decent, experienced trainer who DOESN'T work their upper level horses in a snaffle more than a double.

The only exception is horses that already have been ruined and their mouths have no feeling left.

[ridgeback]

There are a lot of misconceptions in dressage such as not sitting the trot (about the worst thing anyone could do is sit the trot while the horse is not warmed up), wanting to be in the double bridle all the time.

I still don't understand why someone would be surprised or pleased to see Seidel or Peters or Macdonald schooling in a snaffle. I don't think that's unusual at all. I haven't ever seen a decent, experienced trainer who DOESN'T work their upper level horses in a snaffle more than a double.

The only exception is horses that already have been ruined and their mouths have no feeling left.

So are you saying that a double bridle ruins their mouth? I don't agree with you why would you do most of your training in a snaffle then expect the same results when you finally put the double on or when you walk into the ring to show? I suppose that if you do not know how to sit correctly, you would be right... I think each horse is an individual and it is not black and white.. JMO

[Eclectic Horseman]

So you are saying that a double bridle ruins their mouth? I don't agree with you why would you do most of your training in a snaffle then expect the same results when you finally put the double on or when you walk into the ring to show? I suppose if you don't know how to sit correctly you would be right.. I think each horse is an individual and it's not black and white.. JMO

It is actually harder to ride a horse correctly in a snaffle. For example, use of a double can cover up flaws in the basic training, by using poll pressure to keep the horse from coming above the bit even though he is on the forehand and hollow backed. So a less accomplished rider might be able to muddle through an upper level test with a double bridle on--where things would go very, very wrong in a snaffle and you couldn't salvage the ride.

Regarding the sitting trot, many riders THINK they are sitting correctly, when they are actually holding themselves in the saddle by the reins. This shows up when, for example, if asked to do half pass at the posting trot-- the rider cannot do it because he doesn't have an independent seat.

So basically, it takes a degree of practice to learn how to sit the trot. It takes a while to learn how to ride in a double. It takes a while to learn how to hold your leg steady enough to ride with spurs. But sometimes when people have learned how to do these things, then they want to use them every day. Then these things really become a crutch and they are used for the wrong purposes. And then, yes, the double can ruin the horse's mouth and sitting the trot can damage his back and spurs can make the horse more and more dead to the leg.

[NoDQhere]

We are in the camp that wishes the double bridle was optional for the FEI Tests :)

[slc2]

So you are saying that a double bridle ruins their mouth?

--Not exactly.

--What I am saying is that most top trainers school their horses in snaffles most of the time, and further, that there is very sound principle behind that, and they do it to keep their horse's mouths fresh and responsive over the long term. I honestly don't know anyone who is at a higher level and doesn't.

-- There are so many things one does to preserve the horse's qualities - turnout, ,trail riding, posting the trot during warmup, and yes, schooling in the snaffle as much as possible, even the upper level horse.

--I've never been to a barn where they didn't have two bridles for each upper level horse unless their mouth was irretrievably ruined already.

--Too, the double CAN ruin the horse's mouth very quickly if the person isn't very careful and very experienced. I've tried sale horses one after the other, that were all horrible in the double bridle, and been at clinic where local trainer told clinician, 'I have created a monster', and clinician said, 'yes, yes you have, but so does just about everyone else'.

--And I've had a 2 time olympian tell me, 'I'm an adult man and I can't even ride these horses! They're too strong in the bridle!' And...I've watched people try to ride these horses for years and years. It happens ALOT.

I don't agree with you why would you do most of your training in a snaffle then expect the same results when you finally put the double on or when you walk into the ring to show?

--Well, I would have to ask you, what do you think you would gain by having the double on all the time?

-- Do you think it creates collection to put a double bridle on a horse? I don't feel putting a double bridle on a horse is any substitute for periodic work in the snaffle, even at the top levels.

-- The double doesn't PRODUCE collection, it doesn't MAKE things be there that aren't there. It enhances, it refines, because you have two separate rein effects.

--That's why the classical and traditional way is to freshen the mouth, the horse schools in the snaffle 2-3 days a week, the double 2-3 days a week. You also wouldn't jump 7 days a week, or gallop 7 days a week.

-- You don't understand why I wouldn't want to use the double all the time - well, I'm right there with ya - I don't understand why you'd want to use the double all the time.

I suppose if you don't know how to sit correctly you would be right..

--That's why Reiner Klimke schooled in the snaffle most of the time? BEcause he couldn't sit right? Is that why so many of the top riders go back and forth between the double and snaffle? Because they can't sit right? Balkenhol? Capellman? Van Grunsven? Dallos? Klimke? Neckermann? Gunther?

--Insults are the realm of the desperate.

--Nice try but it doesn't hold water.

I think each horse is an individual and it's not black and white

--That's why the classical tradition is to school in the snaffle, then?

--The whole idea of classical dressage is that you don't NEED a double bridle to do upper level work, but that you have enough impulsion and enough correctness that you CAN.

--The double bridle is the test of the horse's proper schooling, it makes any problem more obvious, but if one can't go back and school in the snaffle the horse is getting too hard in the reins and the curb rein is becoming a brake and a neck curler, not doing what it's supposed to be there for....but even at that there is a long term change in the horse if it is ridden always in the double, even in the best of hands.

-- the proof of correct schooling is that the horse can do beautiful work in either bridle, his mouth stays fresh and he is through and correct in either bridle.

[ridgeback]

So you are saying that a double bridle ruins their mouth?

--Not exactly.

--What I am saying is that most top trainers school their horses in snaffles most of the time, and further, that there is very sound principle behind that, and they do it to keep their horse's mouths fresh and responsive over the long term. I honestly don't know anyone who is at a higher level and doesn't.

-- There are so many things one does to preserve the horse's qualities - turnout, ,trail riding, posting the trot during warmup, and yes, schooling in the snaffle as much as possible, even the upper level horse.

--I've never been to a barn where they didn't have two bridles for each upper level horse unless their mouth was irretrievably ruined already.

--Too, the double CAN ruin the horse's mouth very quickly if the person isn't very careful and very experienced. I've tried sale horses one after the other, that were all horrible in the double bridle, and been at clinic where local trainer told clinician, 'I have created a monster', and clinician said, 'yes, yes you have, but so does just about everyone else'.

--And I've had a 2 time olympian tell me, 'I'm an adult man and I can't even ride these horses! They're too strong in the bridle!' And...I've watched people try to ride these horses for years and years. It happens ALOT.

I don't agree with you why would you do most of your training in a snaffle then expect the same results when you finally put the double on or when you walk into the ring to show?

--Well, I would have to ask you, what do you think you would gain by having the double on all the time?

-- Do you think it creates collection to put a double bridle on a horse? I don't feel putting a double bridle on a horse is any substitute for periodic work in the snaffle, even at the top levels.

-- The double doesn't PRODUCE collection, it doesn't MAKE things be there that aren't there. It enhances, it refines, because you have two separate rein effects.

--That's why the classical and traditional way is to freshen the mouth, the horse schools in the snaffle 2-3 days a week, the double 2-3 days a week. You also wouldn't jump 7 days a week, or gallop 7 days a week.

-- You don't understand why I wouldn't want to use the double all the time - well, I'm right there with ya - I don't understand why you'd want to use the double all the time.

I suppose if you don't know how to sit correctly you would be right..

--That's why Reiner Klimke schooled in the snaffle most of the time? BEcause he couldn't sit right? Is that why so many of the top riders go back and forth between the double and snaffle? Because they can't sit right? Balkenhol? Capellman? Van Grunsven? Dallos? Klimke? Neckermann? Gunther?

--Insults are the realm of the desperate.

--Nice try but it doesn't hold water.

I think each horse is an individual and it's not black and white

--That's why the classical tradition is to school in the snaffle, then?

--The whole idea of classical dressage is that you don't NEED a double bridle to do upper level work, but that you have enough impulsion and enough correctness that you CAN.

--The double bridle is the test of the horse's proper schooling, it makes any problem more obvious, but if one can't go back and school in the snaffle the horse is getting too hard in the reins and the curb rein is becoming a brake and a neck curler, not doing what it's supposed to be there for....but even at that there is a long term change in the horse if it is ridden always in the double, even in the best of hands.

-- the proof of correct schooling is that the horse can do beautiful work in either bridle, his mouth stays fresh and he is through and correct in either bridle.

Well we can agree to disagree and no where did I insult you or anyone else..I'm right there with canyonoak I think she's right on..You have your opinions and I have mine. I don't think people who ride more in the double automatically have horses with ruined mouths..By the way I'm talking about international type riders not just anyone who rides grand prix..

[ShannonLee]

Yes Theo she is a very good rider - it was a pleasure to watch. I know how difficult it can be to do a GP test in a snaffle - its not the same as schooling!

[Touchstone Farm]

Why is there a rule that you have to ride certain levels in a double bridle, why can't it be up to the rider.. Forgive me for my ignorance:D

I asked the same thing a few years ago, and my trainer explained that the test is not just a test of the horse, but of the rider's proficiency. Since the double bridle is more complicated to use and requires more finesse than a snaffle (the extra set of reins, how the rider can affect the different effects of the bradoon and curb, etc.), the test needs to include that. Now that I have finally made it to GP, I understand. I can do everything on my horse with a snaffle; the double definitely requires added skills (and I'm trying to learn them!!!). So, my understanding is, if a rider shows in a snaffle, he/she isn't demonstrating the entire requirements of the test.

[Valentina_32926]

OTOH, I think it would be nice if FEI allowed FEI-level tests in snaffle. Might be very interesting to see if there is enough interest.

Heard this weekend (when buying a double) that the movement is afoot to allow showing up to GP in a snaffle. I'd love that, but in the interim, my mare will soon start becoming accustomed to the double as we purchased a very nice double bridle - Arc d'Triomphe (spelled incorrectly I'm sure).

[FriesianX]

There has been some discussion on this topic on UDBB too - and many of the "names" say the double must be required to show the ability of the rider. You are not a good rider until you can ride in a double - show the finesse of using a double and using it well. Personally, I support allowing a snaffle in the FEI levels, and believe ANYONE who can show a horse at FEI in a snaffle and do it well is a good rider. Here are a few of the links in case anyone is interested.

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=133196
http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=135911

I hope the rule does change - some horses do not accomodate a double bridle well, some riders have small hands (a physical trait they can't help, sorry, it isn't a riding talent shortfall!) and struggle to deal with the two reins, some horses just don't go as well in a double, even if the curb rein is never touched. And of course, I still believe some riders use it as a crutch. I've seen horse/rider teams riding in a double that can "perform the movements" but put them in a snaffle and the horse is literally unrideable. Which tells me they are "held together" by the curb (I think this is what SLC is referring to).