Correct or ignore the behaviour?

[JackSprats Mom]

So I'll try and put in the relevent details without being too boring- horse is 5 years old, very smart, sensitive bold and opinionated. Horse has been seen by vet/chiro/tack/teeth etc so NOT physical.

Horse was in training last month as I was having issues with his right canter lead and cross firing behind which I was just not able to resolve as well as balking issues- trainer fixed all of those and he is now going wonderfully and is great fun to ride. His naturally weak side is his right side (which is mine too so I'm working hard on that).

Here's the issue; he will often throw in a buck when picking up his right canter lead. This is partly because he anticipates and tenses slightly, I try to solve this by breaking it up where I ask for it. He continues to canter and gets through it. Now the dilemma- trainer says correct him for this as its attitude and this is a horse that if you give him an inch he'll take a mile. My feeling is that if I correct him for this it makes him anticipate the transition even more hence increases the liklihood of him bucking he's also sensitive and quite frankly gets annoyed at getting corrected. I just ignore it ride the canter then re-ask for the transition again so that he relaxes and realizes it just not that big a deal.

What would you do, correct or ignore?

[kahjul]

My answer is based on his expressions. Is he pissed, ears back, bracing, etc or is he playfully exuberant and staying soft? If it's in disrespect, he gets the spanking, if it's in fun or just from the effort itself, I ignore it. That being said, whatever I choose, if the behavior doesn't go away in a reasonable length of time, try the other! It's hard when sometimes you have to 'guess'. Good luck!

[slc2]

went thru this with my youngster.

unless yiou REALLY ARE IN LOVE WITH HIM BUCKING INTO THE CANTER, stop him, and make him do it again, when you do it the second time, try to sit more up right and 'sit his butt down' so he can't buck, and try to make the transition very forward and across the ground out of a very carrying, active trot. it's avoiding being straight and making the transition across the ground, by pushing with the hind legs. so unless you want to perpetuate all that, listen to Dr. Dressage, your trainer, who sounds WONDERFUL!

[JackSprats Mom]

If it's in disrespect, he gets the spanking

Its total pissyness (is that a word?), he gets annoyed at having to 'work' and do it properly ie push off into the canter rather then pull himself into it.

unless yiou REALLY ARE IN LOVE WITH HIM BUCKING INTO THE CANTER, stop him, and make him do it again

I make him continue for a few strides then stop and reask. My main issue is whether to spank him when he bucks which annoys him and makes him tight or whether to just reride the transition and reward the good one (oh and actually I am in love with the bucking as it used to be rearing which scared the bejesus outta me- the bucking doesn't worry me :lol: JK- I understand what you're saying)

And my trainer is more then wonderful she would have done the training for free just to see him get over this and for us to begin to excel (I made her take payment)

[Liz]

I am not big on "spanking". For me the whip is to reinforce the leg. I would use my voice.

I would stop each time he bucked and repeat the transition. Don't get mad or frustrated, leave that to him. Each time he bucks, stop and repeat the transition. When he does the transition correctly then continue to canter on with lots of praise.

As and aside, if you have a good trainer that you like, who knows the horse far better than any of us.....I would do what he/she tells you :)

[JackSprats Mom]

I would stop each time he bucked and repeat the transition. Don't get mad or frustrated, leave that to him. Each time he bucks, stop and repeat the transition. When he does the transition correctly then continue to canter on with lots of praise.

See thats how *I* want to deal with it. While I do respect my trainer 100% and know her method WILL work there is more then one way to skin a dead cat (whatever the heck that means:confused:) so I am curious which method folks would use.

I guess I am more an avoider of fights and she takes them more head on and just rides through it. Its not that I can't or won't its just I prefer not to.

[slc2]

How is the horse supposed to figure out what you think is 'disrespectful'.

There's nothing more guaranteed to mix up a horse and make him angry, sour and belligerent, than letting him do things sometimes, and not others. He has absolutely no idea what your 'Logic of Disrespect' is.

[JackSprats Mom]

There's nothing more guaranteed to mix up a horse and make him angry, sour and belligerent, than letting him do things sometimes, and not others. He has absolutely no idea what your 'Logic of Disrespect' is.:confused::confused:

Come again??

No one is talking about creating confusing signals to him I guess it comes down to, do you correct bad behaviour ie he gets spanked for bucking and asked to redo or reward good behaviour ie ignore the buck and redo transition and reward a clean one.

Correction tends to make him tense as he's sensitive BUT the behaviour is unwanted and unneccersary.

[egontoast]

Ideally you want to face it head on, so I think the trainer is right (for her) but I think we also have to recognize our limitations and make sure we are going to be able to ride through the potential reaction to the 'spank' which might be YEEHAH Even Bigger Bucks till you get to the other side. :eek:

Another approach, if you are looking for ideas, sounds silly, but is to growl really big (as in "GGGET ONN!!") and whack him on the shoulder, not behind the girth which is more likely to inspire more bucks, and then make him go really forward. Everytime he does it, make him work harder. Make sure you are not blocking with the inside rein. The main thing is to not teach him he can back you off. If you get a nice transition, reward lavishly and stop soon and give a break.

I'd be afraid that stopping him and asking him nicely again may be teaching him that if he bucks, you will let him stop. He probably doesn't think too much beyond that (as in, oh yes but then she makes me do it again). He bucks, he gets to stop. Bad thing to teach him.

I think your trainer is right in her approach with this type of horse but the question is, are you able to see it through safely?

PS if it were youthful exuberance and not cranky resistance, I'd ignore it unless it became a habit.
It's a slippery slope if you let him negotiate or say "not right now".

[JackSprats Mom]

Thanks, I think you may be right in that this horse is a quick learner and that was my worry about just asking again and no correction, that he would learn to associate bucking with getting to stop.

His bucking doesn't worry me and I certainly use vocal too as back up I guess I'm just someone that tries to avoid a fight if I can but it looks like I just need to get determined with him and correct him when he does this.

[Liz]

If you have a trainer, then by all means do what they say.
Chances are, if it is a dominance issue then there are other places it is showing up in the ride than just the canter depart.
I personally would use my voice first (growl at him). If he bucks in the depart I would bring him down hard and ask again quickly, I would do this again and again (as many times as it takes within reason). Upward transitions are hard work. He will figure out soon enough that it is easier to go with the program. I am not a big "spank" person. That said, there are some horses...... (Never say never).

Be sure if you decide to "take him on" that you are going to win if he decides to test you.

[onetempies]

My young gelding is going through this stage but his is more related to the I don't wanna go forward which leads to the humpy backed, hopping & eventual bucking. He bucks, he gets ticked behind my leg.... which he usually bucks again which results in another tick with the whip. It's just his way of testing me when he's in a lazy mood & keep in mind that this is on a nearly 18hh youngster. :lol: Sure you may have another way to deal with it (more than 1 road leads to Rome, right? :lol: ) BUT.... you need to deal with it head-on if you want to get over this hump faster rather than dragging it out. :yes:

[nhwr]

Personally I don't mind a green horse bucking a little bit in a canter transition, depending on their general attitude. It is not an uncommon response when they are learning to use their backs and haven't perfected their balance. I prefer not to make a big deal of it and just push them forward and help them find their balance if they are not being rank or piggy.

[Chanel]

Have you stopped to ask yourself why he bucks? Maybe it started with him being confused and irritated, and now he actually thinks that the bucking is what makes the pressure go away. If you are giving light aids and making the transition from a slow trot while NOT using your reins at the same time, the problem should dissapear. If he is not relaxed in the trot - how can you expect him to relax in the transition? Punishment is the worst way of training, it doesnt tell the horse what to do, it only tenses him up, and makes him less motivated. If my trainer suggested a slap to correct something the slap would come right his way!

[Kathy Johnson]

Honestly, it depends on how far I think he can toss me. If I think I can ride out any buck, I'll do as your trainer and correct it. If I think he has any chance of escalating the buck when punished and getting me off, I know that will REALLY set training back miles and miles. So, I had a few young horses that I took more time with. I ignored and simply rode the canter with more energy and longer if they bucked into it. It took longer to establish prompt, clean canter departs with these horses, but on the other hand, they lost the bucking habit, and are now quite safe. Some of them, I backed off the canter for 6 months or so, just worked on connection in the walk and trot, and did the canter departs on the longe.

If I can work it out on the longe line, that is even better, where I can give a hard correction. Better a live chicken than a dead duck.

[egontoast]

Better a live chicken than a dead duck.

:)

[STF]

Disipline depends on the horse, IMO. Some hoses only need to be growled at and then others do need a swat on the rear with my crop. Young horses dont get in trouble much unless they are doing something that is dangerous. They are "kids" and you cant over disipline or riding wont become fun and rewarding and you will get into more issues down the road. Ignore alot, reward often unless its something that can get you hurt.
Now, my horse are NOT spoiled. No, no, no!! Big difference.
I ride several young stallions who will test me. When the time came, and it did, they they tried to push the point they did get in trouble. One that would bolt towards other mares close by had to have a "CTJ meeting" and it was not pretty, but that came down to the horse could hurt someone if not dealt with. Gota pick your battles and you get a lot more with rewards than not.

Make sure your saddle is not rocking on him or that nothing is pinching or sore, etc, etc, etc. A young horse will play off and on, but if its every single time, then 95% of the time they are trying to tell you something.

[Dune]

For me, it totally depends on the horse and the reason he/she is doing it, and I like the honest response of KJ.;) For the OP, given the issues you've had with this horse, go with what your trainer says. I've envisioned a not very good ending with him from the beginning (sorry!:() from your many posts. You're paying for her advice, you need her help at this point, do what she's suggesting. Having said that, don't get yourself bucked off,:eek: maybe she needs to ride him exclusively for a while as there seems to be a bit of a disconnect with you two. Just a suggestion....

[onetempies]

Personally I don't mind a green horse bucking a little bit in a canter transition, depending on their general attitude. It is not an uncommon response when they are learning to use their backs and haven't perfected their balance. I prefer not to make a big deal of it and just push them forward and help them find their balance if they are not being rank or piggy.

Oh no.... this is still at TROT. :lol: Sorry for skipping over that bit of info as I got distracted in mid post up there. Between issues of growing and injuries, we had to back off canter work. If he threw in the bucks going into canter, I wouldn't mind either, especially with how gangly and uncoordinated he is at this stage. But trot work is pretty solid and he knows that obedience is required. Getting humpy backed and bucky when going from walk to trot, just is not an option at this point (especially when combined with him pinning his ears flat back).

[rileyt]

Its hard to analyze without actually seeing this, but my old trainer used to always tell me "Don't punish the disobedience... correct the ignoring of the aids."

I certainly have had horses that need a spanking from time to time... but I'm not sure your horse sounds like one of them.

If he's being nappy off the leg (which is delaying the canter transition-- prior to the buck), then yes... the appropriate response is a quick flick with the whip. But I'm not sure you want to "punish" the buck as much as you want to corrrect it. If he bucks in the transition, bring him back and do it again... and again... and again (in the same calm way each time) until he does it without bucking. But, with this guy, I suspect you also have to be careful about not drilling it, if he's sore.

It sounds like he's a little sore, and as you've said, its HARD for him on that side. That doesn't mean he should get away with it... but I'm not sure beating him is a productive response.

Is the first canter transition always most likely to produce the buck? If so, I'd lean towards ignoring it and letting him work through it... it may be hard for him to warm up on that side, and it may be that it will just go away as he gets stronger and more supple.

[Valentina_32926]

I am not big on "spanking". For me the whip is to reinforce the leg. I would use my voice.

I would stop each time he bucked and repeat the transition. Don't get mad or frustrated, leave that to him. Each time he bucks, stop and repeat the transition. When he does the transition correctly then continue to canter on with lots of praise.

As and aside, if you have a good trainer that you like, who knows the horse far better than any of us.....I would do what he/she tells you :)

Liz is correct - the 'reward" is he gets to continue cantering, but the correction (trot transition) needs to be done without emotion.. so it ends up if he does thetransition without a buck it's done once with TONS of praise, if done with a buck he gets to do it MORE (and if the buck means he doesn't want to do it then there is your "punishment" - he gets to do it more. You don't really need a whip unless the bad behavior escalatates.. suggest trying it Liz's way and if bucking seems to not improve or gets worst then use whip as a deterrent... but your idea that it could make him "frantic" (my word not yours) is probably correct so it's just smarter to try it Liz's way first.

[egontoast]

Liz is correct - the 'reward" is he gets to continue cantering

Depends on the type of horse and the type of resistance.

[CatOnLap]

I have ridden a lot of bucks and prefer not to now, thank you very much. The ones I've trained from the ground up simply have not bothered to buck with me. It was always horses started by others.

I know a lot of trainers will stop and re-do the canter transition if the horse bucks. I've also seen someone stop their horse if they didn't do correct tempis, and re-start the line. I really don't understand this, although it must be commonplace as a correction, since so many people mention stopping and re-doing the transition. In my mind, it is one good way to create a dirty stopper.

I always like KJ's answers and think we must have had a similar background.
So, I had a few young horses that I took more time with. I ignored and simply rode the canter with more energy and longer if they bucked into it.

As far as I can tell, if you have the courage to correct it FORWARD, that is the best policy. A buck is essentially a stop. So if you can ride through the buck and make it into a good canter, then I would do that. And after I would demand a nice round in correct canter, with great impulsion and great carrying behind, before transitioning downward and trying again, this time with more impulsion to begin with. I don't see any point in punishing the horse or spanking him , except to get him to go forward out of the buck. Make sure you are not holding the front end in as you correct forward.

If I think the horse has a ghost of a chance of getting me off, I will stop, dismount and work on the canter departs on the lunge for 5 or 10 minutes until things are going well there, then try again in the saddle.

Better a live chicken than a dead duck

A better way is to prevent it. I would suggest that if your horse can buck in the canter depart, it is because he is not forward into the bridle, or not ahead of the leg. There seem to be other factors contributing- this is the horse who is stiff to the right and had some trouble with cross firing on that lead, which says he is a little weaker/incoordinate on that side and needs some time to strengthen and become supple. I would probably work on suppling exercises in the trot and work over cavalletti at trot to strengthen his hind and improve his suppleness.

Oh yeah, and where I would stop, is when the horse does a lovely canter depart, I would then allow him to stop fairly shortly after, pat him and rest, as a reward for a job well done.

[JackSprats Mom]

A better way is to prevent it. I would suggest that if your horse can buck in the canter depart, it is because he is not forward into the bridle, or not ahead of the leg. There seem to be other factors contributing- this is the horse who is stiff to the right and had some trouble with cross firing on that lead, which says he is a little weaker/incoordinate on that side and needs some time to strengthen and become supple. I would probably work on suppling exercises in the trot and work over cavalletti at trot to strengthen his hind and improve his suppleness.

This is EXACTLY what it is and it tends only to be the first depart or if he gets a little lazy and I ask for a cleaner depart, or a little more 'jump' into it. I am doing lots of suppling plus hill work to strengthen him.


I'll see how it goes this week and I guess play it by ear as to whether to ignore or correct.

Thanks for all the advice though.