Older mares and breeding ...

[TrueColours]

I have the opportunity to purchase a wonderful 22 year old WB mare who competed into her late teens and has had 3 or 4 foals since her show career ended so she has not been heavily used as a broodmare at all.

She has caught on the first or second insemination each time, carried and foaled with no problems at all.

Her bloodlines are impeccable, her career and results were excellent and the foals she has produced thus far have been fabulous, so all excellent reasons to consider purchasing her

I realize that every foal could be her last one and the fact that she did conceive, carry and foal out with no problems the last 3-4 times may not have any correlation whatsoever to how she may be going forward as she hits 23, 24, 25+ years of age, but I am hoping the fact that she has had a limited amount of foals may help extend her life as a broodmare, longer than a mare who started at 10 years of age ...

What stories do you all have of these older mares and the issues you did (and hopefully did NOT!) have with them going forward into this age range? Did your vet bills, collection costs increase as they got older? Did they lose more foals than they kept? Did they NOT conceive more than they DID conceive?

How did you know when it was time to retire them permanently?

Many thanks! :)

[TheBandit]

My 21 year old broodmare caught on the first try this year. Her last foal was in 2006. My vet bills are about same as the last time I bred her. The only thing extra I will be doing this year is having her caslicks. This will be foal #11 for her. I am planning on retiring her after this year, but I have had a few people trying to convince me to keep breeding her.

[Kyzteke]

I started with mostly younger mares and I have the worst luck anywhere, so I can't help you with personal stories.

BUT I have a friend whose 22yr old Paint mare (who has had 6-7 babies), caught first try with shipped semen (and the semen was so-so), foaled out just fine. Another bred her 19 yr. old maiden Appie LC -- again no problems.

Depending on what you would pay for her, she may pay for her retirement, which, as you are well aware could be just around the corner. But at age 22 I would not expect more than 4 foals, max.

And she will tell you when to retire her: she seems more and more uncomfortable with pregnancies, dystocias increase, it's more and more difficult (and expensive) to get her and keep her in foal, etc.

Sometimes they just retire themselves! They just stop having babies. If her babies are spectacular and you have the resources, I'd take the mare. Those grand old gals need a home.

[imajacres]

If the mare is good enough to breed at this age, she is good enough to merit ET, I say. So you collect her a few times, then she can retire, and not have to carry those heavy babies around.
That's what I do. I have a few mares that are pedigree, or performance-wise worthy.
Just a thought :-)

[rideagoldenpony]

As you may note from my signature, I raise Welsh Ponies. I'm not sure how comparable they are to WBs, in the reproductive sense -- it may be apples/oranges, but at least they are both fruit. LOL

Many years ago, I aquired three elderly broodmares. Long story, one was free, one was supposed to be free (and wasn't) and one was quite expensive. They were all bloodlines that at the time I thoguht were fantastic (later, changed my mind, but that's another story for another day) and hard to come by.

The free mare was 24 and had not had a foal in 12 years. She was also in very bad condition when she arrived. $$$ of Equine Senior later, she was in lovely shape, and I believe concieved on the first or second breeding. She had a colt the next season, however, he was very small and really not the quality I had hoped for. At one point I tried to give him away, and later sold him for a whopping $700. He was just really "not much", and never did grow and develop the way he should have. I don't know how his dam's age factored into that, but I was unable to get her in foal again.

The supposed-to-be-free mare also had heaves. And cribbed if she didn't wear a collar. Lovely combination. :rolleyes: I can't remember how old she was when she got here. I'm thinking it was 22. She had been open for a couple of years, but had been a reliable producer for her previous owner, and had had a number of very nice foals, including the previous owner's current stallion. I was able to get her in foal within a couple of tries, and she had a lovely filly for me the following year. I then bred her to a stallion I had just imported, she was checked in foal, then on the recheck was empty. I was unable to get her in foal again.

The expensive older mare, also in her early 20's, was supposed to arrive in foal to the previous owner's stallion. She was not in foal. I spent a LOT of money first getting her into good condition, then trying every last thing my vet could think of. I tried for about two years, then gave up. She was a big time losing proposition for me.

Personally, for my own breeding program, I've opted for younger mares. Not that that takes all of the risk away (having a heck of a time with a 7 year old this year!!!), but my own experience with the older mares was not that successful.

Now, mares that I've owned myself for a longer period of time -- ie had them into their old age -- I've had better luck with.

I consider an older mare a total crapshoot. Yes, you might get a last foal or a few foals out of her, and they could be amazing -- or you could get one last foal that is a tiny colt that never is what you'd hoped. There's just no telling.

I for sure wouldn't proceed with a *purchase* without an exam from a vet.

Good luck!!!

[QuillcoteFarm]

Not such good luck here, I have a leased mare (18) that has had many babies in the past always very easy from start to finish, not so much now, after many tries she still never took, we did all we could fertility wise and left the rest up to her, never took :cry: I guess if you have endless funds and emotions you could give it a shot, otherwise, I wouldnt go that old again. I realize breeding is a crap shoot and there could be a million reasons this mare didnt take but at her age you have to add that heavily to the equation.

[clint]

I took a 19 y.o. SPS mare who had had a very successful show career and six foals, with the last one being a yearling when I took the mare. To make a long story short, she conceived easily but was never able to carry a foal to term; she always aborted around the sixth or seventh month. I would never again get an older mare, regardless of their reproduction history, without first getting a biopsy. Fortunately this mare was sound, so she resumed her riding career as a schoolmaster.

[bingbingbing]

She 22 and not in foal in July? IMO, I would either use her for ET or pass. Most of the time you find out they have had enough either by aborting foals &/or losing the mare. This is based on my experience with the older girls.
She sounds like a super mare, and I hope her golden years are good ones.

[BeastieSlave]

I'd probably pass too. As the proud owner of a mare who had 7 foals on the ground but was unable to carry another to term for me at 15, I think it's just too risky. BTW, my mare is an easy breeder too, but she loses the baby at about 9 months and let me tell you, that will break your heart.

I have to add that I am also the proud owner of a Welsh pony who is one of (I've been told) 23 that her dam produced :eek:

[spacely]

I'd pass too. I bred a 17 year old maiden who I'd had for years & had been my AA jumper. She foaled disastrously at 18 (2001). The colt lived, but he is a lawn ornament though has a lifetime home with me. I lost the mare to other issues in 2005. When we tried to rebreed her, she reatined so much fluid her uterus looked like the Pacific Ocean.

I got a lovely, free, 22 yr old TB mare who I just adored. Quality mare. She had lost that year's colt who was septic at birth. She was bred & caught & carried easily, but had a stillborn filly at 350 days gestation. At that point she was reitred. She was adopted by someone who just loves her & is taking great care of her.

[Pippin]

Can you take the mare on conditions?? That she gets in foal in a resonable amount of tries,,, that she produces a live foal.. ???

P~

[TrueColours]

She 22 and not in foal in July?

She had a late foal and was bred once. She came up empty on her check this morning. If I did / do get her, it would have been with the foal she was currently carrying (*IF* she was in foal)

Thank you for all of your input. There is a lot to think about and some very valid points being raised

[hansiska]

The first WB mare I ever owned was 19 when I bought her. Also leased another aged 21. These mares taught me everything I know about breeding and were worth their weight in that respect.

The 19 yr old was inexpensive and, I thought, had great bloodlines. I've since changed my mind on that (sounds like another poster had a similar experience). I got two foals out of her. One died at 5 months. Big heartbreak. He was a super mover, too. The other I sold in utero and found out later that he also died young -- at two I think -- leading me to wonder if she was passing on some genetic digestive problem. (Both horses died of colic).

When I bought that mare her previous owner, who'd imported her as a yearling, told me she "stocked up" occasionally. Turns out I was dealing with full-blown lymphangitis. I kept the mare in a standing wrap on that leg for the rest of her life. I was also told she had clearance issues, so I learned all about that and became quite good at dealing with it.

The second mare did have fantastic bloodlines and produced my most successful horse to date, a colt who was 16th in the country in his age group last year. Amazingly, she needed very little maintenance for the pregnancy. She produced a full brother at age 23, when her owner decided to retire her.

Both mares had difficult foalings (1 each) and tried hard to die on me. With my mare, it was the last foal she ever had. The antibiotics used to clear her infection wiped out all the normal flora in her uterus, which produced a surge when she was taken off antibiotics, which caused a pyometra I tried for two years to cure her of. The leased mare tore during foaling and was on the ground giving up the ghost on day three post foaling. I called the vet then lay down and wept on her face. She got up, and lived to foal another.

In my experience, breeding older mares can be scary, heartbreaking, educational, and rewarding. I learned so much! My mares were patient enough to let me do much of the work. I learned to do all of the steps in getting horses bred, including AI, flushes, injections, oxytocin protocol, Regumate, and, sadly, IVs. Considering what I spent over the years on these mares, I probably would have been wiser to buy a filly in the first place, show her in breed shows, and bring her through her inspection and MPT.

Bottom line, you have to know all of the mare's issues and make the best decision for yourself. I doubt I could have learned as much from a young filly.

[RodeoQueen]

I think it depends upon the health of the mare. We have successfully bred our older mares for the past 5 years with very good results. They are very healthy mares, vetted, checked every spring - are proven producers and give us nice babies. Our older girls were in foal first try this spring - put up with the vetting like heros and are all looking great. They are nice to handle, are experienced mothers and seasoned to the handling of their babies - which is a very nice thing.

[Erin Pittman]

I think I'd probably pass, too. I have a 23 year old mare now that had her last foal last year. It took 3 tries (with flushing plus oxytocin every 6 hours for 3 days) to get her in foal and then she got regumate for the first 65 days. That colt was absolutely HUGE and her weight just could not keep up with him. She got breakfast, lunch and dinner - all with oil, free-choice great quality grass/alfalfa hay, 24/7 pasture access (nice pasture with grass and clover) and I just plain wasn't happy with how she looked. She wasn't terrible, but she wasn't her usual plump self (see her here in the background behind said colt: http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/15644/2086515150039146725S600x600Q85.jpg - colt is only two weeks old in this photo!). I finally decided to wean said monstrous colt at 4 months just so Peanut could get some weight back. By the time he was weaned (http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/11568/2267386250039146725S600x600Q85.jpg), he was probably only about a hand shorter than mom. That colt really took it out of her - she looks awesome now (http://inlinethumb26.webshots.com/39961/2455248580039146725S600x600Q85.jpg) as a pasture ornament, nicely rounded where she should be, but she really started to look OLD after that colt. She wasn't like that with the one she had in 2005 at all. Up until this colt, in fact, I'd have said she was an air-fern/easy keeper. She was in excellent health all through her pregnancy and prior to that had never had any illnesses, so I can't really put it down to anything but a big colt and an older mare that just couldn't keep up.

[Donella]

Do you have a super repro vet that you can take her to? Can you get a really good prepurchase breeding exam done? If yes to both and you are ok with the possibility of never getting a foal? If yes, I would take the chance. If she is that nice and you get even one foal, it's probably worth it, especially if you get a filly.

I know of a 20 yr old tb mare who was open for two years and caught first try with frozen semen and carried the foal to term no probs, had a nice colt this spring.

There is always a reason they do or do not catch, carry ect. It's wether or not it is manageable, workable ect and how much work you wanna put into it. Sometimes it can be simple..caslicks, multiple flushes post insemination, progesterone ect...

[DownYonder]

I can relate a few experiences that friends of mine have had.

One bought an older (late teens) European bred TB from a well known WB breeder. The mare had been bred by a Shaykh and had sold at one of the big TB yearling sales in KY for WELL into six figures, had been a race broodmare most of her life, then was sent to auction when she slipped a foal and didn't conceive again that year. The WB breeder picked her up for a song and got her in foal after several tries to one of her own stallions, a very well known and highly respected Hanoverian. She sold her to my friend when the pregnancy was well established. That foal was born without complications, although the pregnancy went 363 days. My friend repeated the breeding, and that pregnancy lasted 405 days. The foal was born tiny and dysmature and died at the vet hospital within a few days, then the mare died a few days later of pregnancy/foaling related complications.

Another person I know bought an imported SPS mare sired by a legendary stallion. The mare was in her late teens and had had a successful breeding record with her previous owner, but had not caught or held a pregnancy in the past three years. The buyer managed to get one foal out of her, born tiny and dysmature and with complications. I believe that foal ended up having to be euthanized before it turned one year old, despite lots of medical intervention. The buyer was never able to get the mare pregnant again. She ended up giving her away to another breeder who wanted to try. The new buyer poured a lot of money into treating the mare's repro problems, and finally - after a few thousand dollars of vet work - was able to get ONE embryo from her, which was successfully transplanted into a recipient mare, although I do not know if it ever resulted in a succcessful foaling.

I also boarded for a while with a lady who bred Paints. She had bought an older mare many years before that another breeder was selling because he couldn't get her pregnant. After many tries, she got the mare pregnant at age 22. The resulting colt went on to be named World Champion in Halter, Western Pleasure, Hunter Under Saddle, etc., and was also a popular sire.

I just helped place a 17 y/o WB mare with some repro issues. The previous owner couldn't afford to try any more, the new owner was willing to give it a shot. She is going to spend the rest of this year cleaning up the mare and treating her cysts, then will try to breed her next spring. She is set up to keep the mare for the rest of her life, whether she gets a foal from her or not.

There is no doubt that older, good quality mares with great pedigrees, performance records, and/or production records can be a treasured addition to a broodmare band. I would say go for it if you are willing and able to give the mare a forever home even if you never get one foal from her.

[sblake]

I have an older TB mare. She's 22 this year. I bred her in 05 (19) just to see if she would take because it had been a few years since she'd had a foal. I did a live cover on a foundation bred AQHA stallion. She didn't take the first time around but when she was checked, the vet said she was ready to breed again and to make sure she was bred the next day and gave us the Oxytocin shots. She had a gorgeous filly in 06 but went 371 days and the filly was small but healthy. She was bred AI for an 07 foal - took on the first try but... her filly had to be put down due to a freak accident and the day she was put down the mare was 12 days in foal. The mare did not do well when we took the filly away and she lost the foal she was carrying. I don't know if it was the stress or something else. In 07 I made sure we did the culter and cytology and she had e-coli. She was flushed on one cycle and retested, came back clean so we bred the next cycle. She took but had poor tone so she was given LAP4 shots but only 4. Day 5 after breeding, and every 10 days after that. Whe she was rechecked her tone was good. Of course she was given the Oxytocin after she was bred that time too. She had a beautiful/healthy filly by Sempatico on day 354. She may have had the e-coli the year before but I didn't do the culter and cytology. Lesson learned there. She also got a caslick last year after she was bred. She is a very healthy mare and people are surprised when I tell them how old she is. She looks really good for her age. I was keeping a very close eye on her this year because I knew she had a much larger foal in her. From the time I saw the foal present inself to it being completely out was 11 minutes! This filly was very bright and alert and knew right what to do when it came time to eat.

I think it just depends on the mare. It can get costly flushing though. I was able to take her to a breeding farm and the charges were half of what the vet would have charged me.
Susan

[pintopiaffe]

Coming late to this. Older gals, I leave it up to them. If I try three times with "reasonable measures" and they don't take, they are retired. I consider "reasonable" to be perhaps timing them in... a caslick's... but that's about it. I don't do anything fancy.

My grand old Trak mare had her last foal at 22. He was small at birth. I think he's still a bit on the smaller side, but nothing to compare to. Plus sire is 14.3, so he could be taking after Dad. She always carried quite long--shortest 354, longest 375. Her last two were very slightly dysmature (375 & 354) but were completely 'caught up' by 36 hours or so. She was a FABULOUS mother.

I got her as a 17 yo maiden. I hoped for one or two foals at most, got FOUR. She was amazing. She adopted an orphan too. Just a miracle mare. I tried for 3 cycles to AI her her last year, only actually BRED on two, she came into heat the day she stepped off the trailer from her (long overdue) RPSI Inspection. I stood her to my own stallion, LC, just once. She took, and the rest is history.

My current treasure is 21. I just timed her in, and bred on Wed. I think she's pg. I usually know. ;) She was dragged WAY down with her last, a HUGE filly by *Nico. She lost a ton of topline, and I'm really noticing how dropped her back is. I will only try once more this year with her... and perhaps once next year... three times. If they don't take, they know something I don't. OTOH--I'm not beneath live cover for an old girl. For all the reasons it is good. The gel fraction *helps* with clearance/fluid... the whole process can be more fertile, given the right management.

So... I might just give it a whirl if it was the right mare, the right time, and the right price. One could always hope for that ONE, and sometimes hit the lottery (like I did with the Trak gem--hoped for one, prayed for two... got four!) and get more.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Many years ago a family friend had a 29 year old retired mare in a pasture and the neighbor's stallion made an uninvited visit. They never even thought about pregnancy because of the mare's age and she had never had a foal. Well..........she had her first, and only,foal at 30 with no complications.


I rescued a pony from slaughter in 1999 and the vet that came out put her between 30 and 35 and you guessed it - pregnant. She got to live the last 5 years of her life here and her foal is now my son's 8 year old pony, Rose.

This year, a girlfriend purcased a very well bred 18 year old mare for a song from a breeding farm. She bought her to put her back into work and do lots of light riding on. THe farm had tried 3 times unsuccessfully to breed her last year and had decided to retire her. When I came out to see her this spring, I told my friend that she looked pregnant. I was told that she was fat. But..........."she's fatter on one side than the other" I said. Freaked out, the friend put the mare on a trailer, took her to the local vet and had her palpated. No foal. I was chastised for scaring her and costing her time and money. Less than 30 days later, the same friend called me shrieking - "she's had a foal in my pasture!!!". Vet who said that she wasn't pregnant did the foal check for free.

[avezan]

Many years ago a family friend had a 29 year old retired mare in a pasture and the neighbor's stallion made an uninvited visit. They never even thought about pregnancy because of the mare's age and she had never had a foal. Well..........she had her first, and only,foal at 30 with no complications.


I rescued a pony from slaughter in 1999 and the vet that came out put her between 30 and 35 and you guessed it - pregnant. She got to live the last 5 years of her life here and her foal is now my son's 8 year old pony, Rose.

This year, a girlfriend purcased a very well bred 18 year old mare for a song from a breeding farm. She bought her to put her back into work and do lots of light riding on. THe farm had tried 3 times unsuccessfully to breed her last year and had decided to retire her. When I came out to see her this spring, I told my friend that she looked pregnant. I was told that she was fat. But..........."she's fatter on one side than the other" I said. Freaked out, the friend put the mare on a trailer, took her to the local vet and had her palpated. No foal. I was chastised for scaring her and costing her time and money. Less than 30 days later, the same friend called me shrieking - "she's had a foal in my pasture!!!". Vet who said that she wasn't pregnant did the foal check for free.

OMG! Those stories!

I have something to add. I have a 24 year old mare who had her last foal this year. I decided to try to breed ONCE last spring, and she took. :) All went well until about 6 months into the pregnancy when I did something stupid...namely trusting the vet I was using. I won't go into details, but the mare did a serious downward spiral. The problem was that her age was an added stressor to everything else. She did foal succesfully and now with the foal at 3 months, I think the mare is finally out of the woods, but her weight is very low. I'm feeding her the max that I can and she eats with gusto, but I think her weight will not come back until I wean the foal.

So, anyway, my point is that the advanced age is an added stressor. If all goes well, you should be fine. But if there are any problems, they are magnified by the mare's age. ET sounds like a great idea if it is feasable.