Better spinoff...WBs vs all non draft crosses

[~Freedom~]

To try to get some realistic input and since there are a lot that ride breeds common to the everyday use such as Arabs and their crosses as well as Quarter horses and their crosses as well as the various other crosses and the many grades horses...just how competitive can these be against an average WB.

Just how competitive are the WB crosses against the straight WBs? How about WBs against other breeds both pure and crosses.

And please ladies I am NOT including any draft blood in any of the crosses mentioned above but crosses outside of any draft blood.

My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?

[Ibex]

We used to have a TB in the barn who was a solid third level - he'd been bought as a YR prospect by a previous owner, but he couldn't collect sufficiently to go higher.

I've had my butt kicked at training level by a kid on a pinto pony...

[grayarabpony]

Sure. There's very talented individuals in all breeds, and many crosses.

Honestly I think too much fuss is made over warmbloods -- they certainly have their flaws too. Based on videos I've seen of competitions -- Brentina is the only one that can piaffe worth a damn. But I also think hers is better than any I've seen, including Lipizanners. I think she's in a class by herself with regard to piaffe. She truly makes it look easy.

And no, I don't have anything against warmbloods. I have a TB/ Hanoverian cross.

[cloudyandcallie]

To try to get some realistic input and since there are a lot that ride breeds common to the everyday use such as Arabs and their crosses as well as Quarter horses and their crosses as well as the various other crosses and the many grades horses...just how competitive can these be against an average WB.

Just how competitive are the WB crosses against the straight WBs? How about WBs against other breeds both pure and crosses.

And please ladies I am NOT including any draft blood in any of the crosses mentioned above but crosses outside of any draft blood.

My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?
uh, there aren't any "straight WBs", well they are 'straight", even the geldings, but they aren't purebred. altho Trakehners are supposed to be a breed, all us others are registries with lots of tb and arab blood, and trakehners are also full of tb and arab, more arab than many other registries. If you mean WB vs. draught crosses that are in america called wbs, like the aws, then they are not the same as the european lines. but 1/2 tb and 1/2 wbs are about the same as "straight" registry wbs.
Just check out the bloodlines of the big olympic horses and see just how much tb and arab blood is there, you'll be amazed.

[~Freedom~]

uh, there aren't any "straight WBs", well they are 'straight", even the geldings, but they aren't purebred. altho Trakehners are supposed to be a breed, all us others are registries with lots of tb and arab blood, and takehners are also full of tb and arab, more arab than many other registries. If you mean WB vs. draught crosses that are in america called wbs, like the aws, then they are not the same as the european lines.
Just check out the bloodlines of the big olympic horses and see just how much tb and arab blood is there, you'll be amazed.

LOL I realize that and I was trying to separate the crossbreds that are done outside the registry compared to what has been infused and approved within each registry.

[cloudyandcallie]

yeah, I just think our registries (we are hessen in german registry, none here) are for performance and location, not for purebreds. I think any horse who can perform is great, and buying bloodlines helps. I love the ottbs, all that inbreeding, and the wbs, all that crossbreeding with the inbred tbs.
but the wbs can jump in stadium jumping, wouldn't want to try to event with those bodies, and the wbs have those floating trots. but then the tbs have all that intelligence.
cloudy is 47% tb, 10% arab, 100% pita! But he is straight, lol, still thinks he is a stud, poor boy.

[ltw]

I think I understand what you are asking- How do warmbloods versus non-warmbloods compare in the sport of dressage?

Is that correct?

If that is the question it is very easy to answer but let me clarify- the real rating is at the FEI level, not at training level- so hear is my answer - go to this link from the world breeding federation----

http://www.wbfsh.com/files/Dressage%20breed%20June%2008.pdf


they track all the performance indicators for all recognized breeds: You will see that Hanoverians ranked #1, Dutch ranked #2, Danish ranked #3, Oldenburg ranked #4, Swedish #5, Westphalian ranked #6. HOlsteiner #7.

I think the answer is pretty clear, don't you? I do not see any registered Arabs or Quarter Horses competing at the FEI levels and being ranked consisently by the WBF. Would you agree??

Laura

[Phyxius]

My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?

Quite often TBs are approved for breeding and so there are "warmbloods" that are half TB, or is that not what you meant? (Ooops, just saw that this was already said....)

I don't know how you feel about andalusians because I do not, personally feel that they can be lumped in with the warmbloods, but they're my number one choice if only a) I could afford a quality one and b) they regularly came in size 17+h. Though, I have ridden some ROUND andies that took up my long leg quite nicely.

[grayarabpony]

Lendon Gray rode a couple of TB/ Connemara crosses and did pretty well as I recall....

Let's face it, one of the reasons those breeds dominate so much is that a rider looking to ride at the FEI level isn't likely to look at other breeds, yet individuals in probably every light breed exist that can do excellent dressage. 20 years ago I knew a pony, registered QH, 14.1 hands, BEAUTIFUL mover in all three gaits, could easily jump 4'. Didn't look a thing like a QH. Rich kid whose parents owned the farm was riding her training level. The horse was capable of so much more but she did have a very good life living out on the farm. Arabian, also a little over 14 hands, lovely in all three gaits, steady mind... The best trot I've seen of any horse was an OTTB mare -- she just floated across the ground. Amazing. So those horses are out there but the stars all have to align.

[STF]

I just started riding a really neat little arabian/saddle bred mare. She really is super free in the shoulder and nice hock action. I dont know how far she will go, but I will def. keep everyone updates. She has a brain and very rideable, so....... who knows, time will tell.

[Ambrey]

One girl in Lewin's training barn just sold a TB who was, I believe, PSG/I1.

One of the riders in my barn lost a Morgan last year who was very competitive at PSG. She also has an Andalusian (or is he Lusitano? Damn, now I forgot) stallion that she's bringing along.

[ltw]

Here are the top Dressage performance horses in the world, this is the most current performance list:

http://www.wbfsh.com/files/Dressage%20horses%20June%2008.pdf

[FancyFree]

Here are the top Dressage performance horses in the world, this is the most current performance list:

http://www.wbfsh.com/files/Dressage%20horses%20June%2008.pdf

That's was interesting! Thanks for posting. The top three are Hanoverians. My personal favorite. :yes:

[~Freedom~]

That's was interesting! Thanks for posting. The top three are Hanoverians. My personal favorite. :yes:

They are mine as well. My own is Hanoverian cross.

So with the qualifications that may be in place in 2009 do they favor the crosses or not?

[grayarabpony]

Hanoverians (and Hanoverian crosses) are the best. :D

[exvet]

Well I wrote an article that is going to be published in the Paisley Pony (upcoming issue). It lists all of the known (through USDF database) welsh that have competed at third level or above successfully. The list is amazingly long and primarily made up of cobs - section C & D though there are a handful of Bs and half-breds. When you consider the number of welsh cobs in this country as compared to the number of warmbloods, the statistics of competitive mounts shorter in stature who are successful in climbing the levels is not too shabby. I'm sure there are many who were overlooked due to recording error/lack of breed recognition. A few in my article who are listed went to Intermediate and Grand prix. I am hoping to debut at Prix St. George with mine in late fall if everything continues to go according to plan.

I earned my bronze, all scores, on my Arab who was I trained on my own.

[Donella]

That's was interesting! Thanks for posting. The top three are Hanoverians. My personal favorite.

Mine too:yes: They've been number one breed on that list for over a decade (and usually at the top for jumping too). It's no accident.

On the other hand, I think there are lots of "non traditional" breeds , as well as some Baroque breeds that can hold their own in some serious competition. Friesians are starting to do fairly well, especially considering the small numbers (have been long listed ect). But, when it all comes down to it, you compare the BEST example of a wb bred for dressage ie like a Brentina and compare it to ANY other horse..for sheer dressage talent/ability, you just cannot beat the wb IMHO.

[goeslikestink]

To try to get some realistic input and since there are a lot that ride breeds common to the everyday use such as Arabs and their crosses as well as Quarter horses and their crosses as well as the various other crosses and the many grades horses...just how competitive can these be against an average WB.

Just how competitive are the WB crosses against the straight WBs? How about WBs against other breeds both pure and crosses.

And please ladies I am NOT including any draft blood in any of the crosses mentioned above but crosses outside of any draft blood.

My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?

haha, when my teddy aki shetland ponyx sec Awelshall at 10.2hhs was in the pony club, with a lessonee 1st time in
for both, aki juniors against seniors intercamp thing him being the smallest won the dressage
against all the biggests the largest being 16.3hh came home with a rather large thorphy

[FriesianX]

I think WBFSH only lists the breeds they include in their association, which is most (not all) Warmblood registries and some of the Spanish registries. They don't recognize many breeds, including Friesians, Morgans, ANY of the US Stock breeds, etc.

If you want to see how different breeds stack up in dressage in the U.S., probably the best source is the annual USDF Yearbook. Although many of the "crosses" are registered as PHR or AWS, so even that isn't going to give you the full picture.

Are other breeds beating the Warmbloods? Yes. I show here in California, a very competitive circuit, and have seen Arabians, Morgans, Andalusians all in the ribbons at big shows. Last weekend, I showed my own Friesian/Warmblood cross stallion at 3rd level (my 1st time!), and we won the 3rd level classes AND were AA reserve high point for the day (and there were mostly Warmbloods at all the levels at that show).

It is possible to win and to meet qualifying requirements with a non-Warmblood, or a non-traditional cross. But you do need a horse with three decent gaits (they don't have to be flamboyant, but they need to be pure and free and with the reach to do medium work), and you do need to be a good enough rider to get the best from your horse (isn't that the case much of the time?). If you have a small moving, downhill Quarterhorse, you can ride and show dressage, but you may not get the scores. If you have a decent moving Quarterhorse, you can do it. Same with other breeds - it isn't the breed, it is the individual horse (and rider) that needs to be assessed.

A few examples that are fun to hear about.
-A few years ago, at the CDS Junior Championships, one of my young Friesian crosses was reserve champion with a junior rider at 1st level, and the champion was on an Appaloosa! Most of the rest of the placings were Warmbloods, but top two were NOT! Further up the ranks, I think the 4th level champion was riding a Friesian that year.

-At a recent USDF FEI Symposium, one of the demo horses was a PMU rescue - a draft/QH/Who knows what else cross who was doing GP and had a very nice passage!

-Although he didn't quite make it to the team, one of the short listed horses for our team was an Andalusian (Rociero). He's a favorite around here because he's a "local boy". And of course, we all remember Invasor! There are many other examples, I'm just quoting a few that I had local experience with.

Most trainers ride Warmbloods - as a result, we see mostly Warmbloods in the top rankings. But, look what happens when a talented rider picks a different breed? Look at what Sabine did with the Proud Meadow's Friesians, or look at Iron Springs. Look at Rociero. Pull out the USDF Yearbooks and see what is happening - there was a time when all you saw was Warmbloods. That is starting to shift. Sure, it is still MOSTLY Warmbloods - but other breeds are making inroads.

If you don't have a Warmblood, don't dispair - but make an honest assessment of your horse (and your riding abilities, of course). Does your horse have the conformation and gaits to be COMFORTABLE doing collected work? If not, you won't do your horse or yourself any favors by trying to compete at the mid levels. You can still use dressage to improve your horse's rideability, but competing will just frustrate the both of you.

[Kyzteke]

To try to get some realistic input and since there are a lot that ride breeds common to the everyday use such as Arabs and their crosses as well as Quarter horses and their crosses as well as the various other crosses and the many grades horses...just how competitive can these be against an average WB.

Just how competitive are the WB crosses against the straight WBs? How about WBs against other breeds both pure and crosses.

And please ladies I am NOT including any draft blood in any of the crosses mentioned above but crosses outside of any draft blood.

My biggest question since it came up in the qualification thread..Can a non FULL WB ridden by a pro or amateur be able to climb the levels even with the qualifications in place?

You know, competitive dressage has been around alot longer than WBs. Before that people rode TBs or TB crosses for the most part....sometimes horses where nobody had a clue about their lineage (for you young folks out there, it has only become recently that every horse has to be registered and have "papers.").

As always, lot more depends on the rider than the horse and you will never convince me otherwise. Good riders make good horses, great riders make great horses.

[Ambrey]

As always, lot more depends on the rider than the horse and you will never convince me otherwise. Good riders make good horses, great riders make great horses.

I was under the impression that that was supposed to be what the qualification requirements were about- not making sure everyone was on a top horse, but making sure that people could ride well before hitting the upper levels on made horses.

[SillyHorse]

You know, competitive dressage has been around alot longer than WBs. Before that people rode TBs or TB crosses for the most part....sometimes horses where nobody had a clue about their lineage (for you young folks out there, it has only become recently that every horse has to be registered and have "papers.").

As always, lot more depends on the rider than the horse and you will never convince me otherwise. Good riders make good horses, great riders make great horses.
Grand Prix Jumping as been around a lot longer than WBs, too, but look at what's winning in the jumper ring, where there's no subjective judging to reward movement or style or flash. TBs once ruled the jumper ring, but no longer. Warmbloods are great sport horses, and excel at jumping and dressage to a greater degree than any other type of horse.

[rabicon]

I think crosses can do well depending on the cross. My guy is foundation morgan X appendix and he gets 7 & 8's on his gaits, depending on judges. He moves nicely and is starting to swing thru his back. :D I see alot around here that are just WB's in the USDF shows but at schooling shows like GDCTA you see it all. There was a STOCK (very stock) QH mare at our last GDCTA show and she scored a 71 in intro B (just starting out) and a Connamara pony in intro B with a catch rider that scored a 78 I think.

I have a question (not to hijack) but I told my old trainer how well we were doing (she said I needed to sell the horse he'd never do this) and she just said "well schooling shows are scored easier than rated shows" is this true?? We haven't moved to a USDF show yet because this kindof scared me. :lol:

[SillyHorse]

Sometimes, sometimes not. We have schooling shows where scores are inflated, and some where they're pretty low, but it's across the board. When you show at any show, recognized or schooling, you see where you stand compared with the others in your class, no matter whether the scores are high or low.

In any case, it shouldn't scare you. You may want to prepare yourself for somewhat lower scores, but then you may just be surprised. :yes:

[rabicon]

Thanks Sillyhorse. I feel better :D USDF here we come in '09!!!!!!!!!!!!

[slc2]

I will never, ever understand why or how anyone can even start a post called 'Breed A vs Breed B', or 'warmblood vs non warmblood or draft cross vs every other horse'.

There will never, ever, ever in a million years, be one breed or type that is overall 'better' than another or fit all people or all situations.

The 'best' horse is a very individual thing, the one that is appropriate for the rider, the one he likes and enjoys, the one he can afford, the one he can ride.

If anyone says anything even remotely factual in any of these posts, inevitably a dozen outraged 'horsie mommies' jump and say, 'stop dissin' my horsie' and it gets all personal. But the bottom line is that no matter what type of horse is winning the top competitions, it just doesn't matter. What matters is what horse fits the individual.

[Phyxius]

I will never, ever understand why or how anyone can even start a post called 'Breed A vs Breed B', or 'warmblood vs non warmblood or draft cross vs every other horse'.

There will never, ever, ever in a million years, be one breed or type that is overall 'better' than another or fit all people or all situations.

The 'best' horse is a very individual thing, the one that is appropriate for the rider, the one he likes and enjoys, the one he can afford, the one he can ride.

If anyone says anything even remotely factual in any of these posts, inevitably a dozen outraged 'horsie mommies' jump and say, 'stop dissin' my horsie' and it gets all personal. But the bottom line is that no matter what type of horse is winning the top competitions, it just doesn't matter. What matters is what horse fits the individual.


:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

[~Freedom~]

I will never, ever understand why or how anyone can even start a post called 'Breed A vs Breed B', or 'warmblood vs non warmblood or draft cross vs every other horse'.

There will never, ever, ever in a million years, be one breed or type that is overall 'better' than another or fit all people or all situations.

The 'best' horse is a very individual thing, the one that is appropriate for the rider, the one he likes and enjoys, the one he can afford, the one he can ride.

If anyone says anything even remotely factual in any of these posts, inevitably a dozen outraged 'horsie mommies' jump and say, 'stop dissin' my horsie' and it gets all personal. But the bottom line is that no matter what type of horse is winning the top competitions, it just doesn't matter. What matters is what horse fits the individual.

In a sense SLC I agree so the redirection voices you posted about on that other board are finally telling you to say the right thing.

Lets say that in part I started this thread because I got sick and fed up with one member hijacking virtually every thread and I wanted a thread that discussed training,expectations,experiences and hopes for their next few years even if they thought that with the changes coming about they would be left out of the loop. The hope would be that others without the top of the line WB ridden and trained by a pro ( with all the costs associated with that expense) can in fact look forward to their upcoming experiences.

Since you are done with your showing career (such as it was) I am wondering just what sort of expectations you would have that would allow you to contribute in a positive BRIEF way.;)

I would also say that in your summary...If anyone says anything even remotely factual in any of these posts, inevitably a dozen outraged 'horsie mommies' jump and say, 'stop dissin' my horsie' and it gets all personal....
that you do the mature reasonable members of this board a complete disservice in your assumption that it will become a train wreck. We were progressing just nicely until YOU jumped in.

[FriesianX]

So maybe a better name for the thread would be "Can you be competitive with a non-Warmblood"? I still say, the answer is YES! :D And many are. Go through the USDF Yearbook and look at the all-breeds awards, there are many breeds scoring well at all levels. What more proof could you ask for?

Sure, most of the Olympic Teams are riding WBs - but those are the creme de le creme of the pro riders! In real life, every day, USEF/USDF competitions, many different breeds are showing and showing WELL.

[slc2]

LOL. Freedom, come on, seriously, maybe you need to be on that other board as a consumer, if you think that after all this time, I'm going to be jumping up and down to answer a question of yours, especially one put in such a demeaning and insulting fashion, come on now. if you think i would take the time and make the effort to respond, you've got a problem with reality. You can't pick at someone, demean, insult, stalk, ridicule them for months, and then seriously expect them to even consider answering a question of yours.

[Ambrey]

The qualification proposal doesn't require you to WIN, does it? I was under the impression that it was based on scores, and that you could advance with a certain number of decent scores (low 60s). I can't find the proposal now, though.

I thought that the main complaint wasn't as much that it eliminated non-WBs but that the cost would be prohibitive for those showing on a budget (since it would require more shows for the horses who are scoring lower).

So wouldn't the question be "can non WBs get decent scores?" So, for example, if there's anyone who rides a WB and well trained non-WB at the qualification levels- how much lower are your scores for the non-WB? Would it be harder to qualify if you only had access to the non-WB?

[~Freedom~]

i don't really feel that i have any possible reason for going to the trouble of answering your questions.

Interesting for you in fact did reply. :yes:

[FriesianX]

The qualification proposal doesn't require you to WIN, does it? I was under the impression that it was based on scores, and that you could advance with a certain number of decent scores (low 60s). I can't find the proposal now, though.

I thought that the main complaint wasn't as much that it eliminated non-WBs but that the cost would be prohibitive for those showing on a budget (since it would require more shows for the horses who are scoring lower).

So wouldn't the question be "can non WBs get decent scores?" So, for example, if there's anyone who rides a WB and well trained non-WB at the qualification levels- how much lower are your scores for the non-WB? Would it be harder to qualify if you only had access to the non-WB?

Correct, there is no requriement to WIN, but if you are beating the warmbloods, you are scoring better than them :cool: And, if you look at USDF Yearbook results, you see many median scores that are "decent" - ie good enough to get the qualifying scores.

[slc2]

ambrey, unless someone's really got an axe to grind, they can't answer those questions simply or easily or definitely. i just don't think you can generalize and answer most of those questions.

The qualification proposal doesn't require you to WIN, does it?

--No.

I thought that the main complaint wasn't as much that it eliminated non-WBs but that the cost would be prohibitive for those showing on a budget (since it would require more shows for the horses who are scoring lower).

--Yes and no. There were many, many additional complaints, such as 'I don't want to be told what level to show', 'I don't like the general idea of having to qualify', 'It's silly to copy Europe', and 'It's elitist', and 'the Judging stinks because judges don't use the full range' and 'You can't evaluate a rider by looking at their test score'.

So wouldn't the question be "can non WBs get decent scores?"

--Well people here regularly report that "I kicked that warmblood's ass", so I suppose they do.

So, for example, if there's anyone who rides a WB and well trained non-WB at the qualification levels- how much lower are your scores for the non-WB?

--How could you compare, though. The scores might vary for a million different reasons.

Would it be harder to qualify if you only had access to the non-WB?

--Again, someone who feels judging is unfair and 'all warmbloods have fancy gaits and win on that', and 'judges are prejudice and score non warmbloods unfairly low', is going to say yes. Someone who feels 'judges are generally fair' and 'warmbloods have some strengths but good scores can come from many different components such as accuracy and rhythm' may not agree.

[Ajierene]

You know, competitive dressage has been around alot longer than WBs. Before that people rode TBs or TB crosses for the most part....sometimes horses where nobody had a clue about their lineage (for you young folks out there, it has only become recently that every horse has to be registered and have "papers.").

As always, lot more depends on the rider than the horse and you will never convince me otherwise. Good riders make good horses, great riders make great horses.

Um....warmbloods were bred to be cavalry horses, lighter than the horses used to haul the cannons around. Dressage's foundation is in military training. Hence, warmbloods were around at the start of competitive dressage.

Interesting that you mention that the rider makes the horse. I am of the opposite opinion. I discussed this with my trainer - horses like Teddy O'Connor are born, not made and it is the luck of the upper level rider to see them and be able to recognize their talent.

While a better rider can make an average horse good, or a good horse better - you cannot make a horse do more than it is inheritly able.

While you can debate which breed is better for which discipline, which horse is better for you is up to you, the rider/owner. Again, take Teddy into account. He was a nice, 14.1 pony, tons of talent. While he was a great pony, Karen O'Connor has stated that he is no child's pony. While someone might be happy to have his talent, if their 10 year old cannot ride him, he is not the equine for them.

As I have stated before - if you are going to buy, sight unseen, a horse to be competitive at dressage, hedge your bets on a Warmblood. Other than that, each horse is an individual. On the same token - a Grand Prix warmblood may not be the horse for you, if you are not interested in going that far, have a personality conflict or whatever.

Discussing one off's, stories of great off breeds in dressage or what have you is pointless in discussing how they stack up as breeds.

Compare statistics and breed standards for confirmation to determine which breeds and crosses will do well in what discipline.

[slc2]

perfect.:D

[canticle]

I've worked with many different types of horses, so I can conclusively say that there is nothing special about WBs or ANY breed of horse. It is all about finding the type of horse you mesh best with. We all have our preferences, but a wise person recognizes these as personal preferences and nothing more.

[Roan]

I believe that it won't be too long before you find more and more Lipizzaners climbing the levels and giving the WBs -- who dominate by sheer numbers :D -- a huge run for their money.

As I stated in another thread (and Thomas can argue with me all he wants. I am correct in what I posted), there are two types of Lipizzaners: traditional/classical types and driving types.

Fear the driving types, as they are becoming more and more common over here :D

Imagine a LARGE Lipizzaner, streamlined, bred to SIT, and with the leg extension, flash and action of a good WB. Some of them even look like WBs. This is Favory IV Delta and he is 17.2hh:

http://www.fourpillarsfarm.com/

It's only a matter of time. . . MUHAHAHAHAHA!

*snarf!*

Eileen

[Donella]

I think what is most important is to understand what kind of conformation is needed in a horse for it to be able to do the job of dressage well and with relative ease. Any horse with the correct functional conformation for this job should be able to do it with the right training. A horse that is built to "carry" vs push, has a relatively uphill build, a neck that comes out high from the withers, moderately light on the forehand, strong loin connection and a horse that is well balanced with three good gaits is what is needed ( I also prefer a rectangular model for the lateral suppleness).

Warmbloods happen to fit this bill more often than other breeds, they are bred with this conformation in mind, whereas a Quarter horse that looks like this is pretty far from his breed standard. Still, they do exist, so if you have one like this, you shouldn't write it off because it not the right breed. But I think the vast majority of riders are clueless when it comes to functional conformation and the biomechanics of collection. The horse NEEDS to be built to do the job with relative ease, otherwise, it is just gonna be even tougher than it already is (if they even hold up).

This probably explains why some of the spanish breeds, friesians, morgans ect do fairly well..they generally fit these conformation requirements (though each of these listed has issues which do hinder it...ie friesians and weak loins, poor hind end angulations, spanish breeds too short coupled, lack lateral suppleness ect). But overall, their breed standards can be fairly conducive to the demands of dressage.

So, in my mind, there are more wb's suited to competative dressage because the norm for the breed (breed standard) is centered around a functional conformation whereas alot of the other breeds are not. However, again, horses should be looked at individually!

[RiverOaksFarm]

I think Friesian Sporthorses are a lovely alternative to Warmbloods.

I have a Friesian Sporthorse (Main Book / Elite Book) who is currently ranked 7th for USDF HOY for Training Level for this year (as of 7/14/08) with a median score of 72.450%, and he earned all of his scores as a 4YO. I adore him, and think everyone should have a horse as cool as this:D. Here is a photo of him from his last show: http://www.riveroaksfarm.net/Lex3psi.JPG Florida is very competitive, but my little non-warmblood hasn't yet been beaten by anyone other than myself, riding a client's horse (Warmblood), so he's holding his own.

There is another Friesian Sporthorse who has been doing really well (also Friesian/TB, Main Book / Elite Book), his owner/trainer earned her USDF Gold Medal with him, and was 6th for USDF HOY at I-1 last year. (You can see a photo of him on the FSA website, if anyone is interested.)

Another of my own Friesian Sporthorses (Elite Book) made his Fourth Level debut as a 7YO, finishing 2nd with a 60%, which isn't a record-setting score, but good enough for medal scores and to count towards the qualification process (if it goes into place), and it was only his first time and he was relatively young. Now as an 8YO he is being ridden by one of my students. (I've found these horses to have super temperaments.)

There are also some very exciting young up-and-coming Friesian Sporthorses, I think we'll be seeing more and more of these horses, and better and better breeding. There are a few I can't wait to see once they start showing!

If you can find a well bred Friesian Sporthorse, I think they can be a wonderful choice for dressage. More lovely examples and information can be found on the association's website if anyone is interested in this "alternative" breed: Friesian Sporthorse Association (http://www.friesiansporthorseassociation.com/).

[MyReality]

It's a good topic.

I like some TB blood in WB in general.

I still think WB crosses in general are more suitable for dressage. Other breeds have their strong points. But I haven't found a general category of horse, with so many individuals, that are naturally supple and use their backs, and every stride move under and out, over their backs.

I think the Iberian types are close second. I love their sense of controlled energy, it is wicked... there is a level of collection in everything they do... and the energy is bottomless and surrendered to the rider. WB could get a little sticky at times, but you'd say it depends on how you ride them. But breeds like Lippizaner, Spanish... they are full of "something", like "chi". I personally do not like Lusitanos, I find them a little too nutty, think too much.

[~Freedom~]

It's a good topic.

I like some TB blood in WB in general.

I still think WB crosses in general are more suitable for dressage.

Thank you.

I have noticed that there is some movement in breeding WB with straight Arabs or possibly Anglo/arabs. I have seen a few and found that to be a cross that produces some consistency.

[goeslikestink]

freedom- most breeds are interbred to improvee the the breed lets take a gander at selle francias for istance they are wb, with both tbs connections

also can be connected with other breds like oldy burgers and holestiens ( yeap spelling crap as cant spell it so wot) and the han and trackners

but more likely the tb-- ie st brenium, or laudanum

laudanum was the 1st internatioal show jumper for rider pierre durrand


ibrahim was prolific tb stallion who had offspring competing at th highest level
ornage peel was another, another blandford


or lets look at cruising le fol -- mother was sf bebe folle
father was ish criusing by sea creast and mullacew--

bebe folle was by egee a tb and father paladin des ifs an sf

on bebe folle grand parents have all the top names of selle francais like nankin. jessabelle de bagugy , quasor, comete, luntines des ifs, and uriel ibrahm ultimate the last orange

you can follow anyone one the lines and you will see a lot of tbs, dating ring back to ajax and the black devil

selle frnacias x many breeds and interbred--

its not wb verses what not-- its selective breeding to get wot knot

if you aiming high as n top notch jumping or dressage neddy then you want the best money can find with a proven background


so no slick at top notches they want a ned to do the job they arnt going to buy a cheapy from a your nextdoor neighbour for an investment

but most horses own buy what they can afford and as long as they are comfy and in there own zone and horse does xyz it doesnt matter what type unless you are
doing a certain disipline and want to get somewhere in it then its the higher end of the average market scale
so not top notch -- but just below

its about money and what you can do and want to do and what its for ie the horse


the horse mentioned is brother to one of my trianers horses as in full brother and he also does very well on his mare

[SpartanMensRea]

A while back in the AQHA magazine there was an article about several QHs who were solid upper level dressage horses. Maybe they were just freaks of their breed. I'll look for the article.

Here's an article from Equisearch (http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/qhdressage_112006/)

[Donatella]

I will add a vote for Friesian Sporthorses. Most have Warmblood or TB so they are not far from Warmblood anyway, except there is Friesian in the mix.

[amm2cd]

Just to add in my two cents:
I have an upper level Dutch and a training level quarterhorse. I have been beaten by baroque horses at third level and at the same show, my four year old QH and I have beaten hanns. Sometimes you just have a better ride :D
While my QH is most likely never going to climb to third or fourth levels, theres a large section of the dressage population who are not at, nor will be FEI contenders. Why exclude some of the smaller "less dressage-y" breeds in favor of something that you might under-utilize?
Just my opinion, but I have just as much fun training and riding my QH as I do on the WB. Every horse is going to be different, but theres not really a reason that the off-breeds cant at least do the lower levels.

[MyReality]

A side comment about Dutch... I saw plenty of talented Dutch. I have never ridden one unfortunately... but from the look of it, they all look a little "high". Is that true? What are they like?

Another side comment about performance. I was just talking about my good old TB last night. He is not a good mover, he is hard to ride well, he is hard to sit, he has little talent... but he did place plenty times in training and first... even getting firsts. He won through accuracy, consistency and a regular quiet pace. He taught me lots, and he is the perfect first dressage horse.

It depends whether you're talking suitability (ease of use and performance) and breeding. Or you're talking who is more fun, or who gives more personal satisfaction to the rider, or who is more meaningful to the rider etc etc.

[Gayla]

I think someone should say their horse is a WB and wear all the gear with the brands on it and just see....:cool::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[grayarabpony]

I think someone should say their horse is a WB and wear all the gear with the brands on it and just see....:cool::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Wellll, if someone tries that out with an Arab, for example, I don't believe that'll work out. :)

[Lgd1]

yes non-WB's can go through the levels successfully. In the UK to ride PSG or above you have to score 60%+ in Advanced (L4) and if you ever get a score less than 50% you have to requalify.


7/8 TB (although registered AES) mare made Inter I competitively and works to GP level - I retired her to breed a foal.

My little Heinz 57 is a 15.2hh Russian Orlov x TB/Connemara mare, although she looks pure Orlov and often gets mistaken for an Iberian. She has decent scores at Medium/Advanced Medium (L3) and had done one advanced prior to injuring herself last year. She's back competing now and will hopefully go PSG next spring.

I also compete a pure-bred Fell Pony (UK native pony breed from Cumbria) he just missed out on a top 10 placing at medium level at our winter regional champs this year. He has scores of 69% and 67% respectively at elementary (L2) and Medium (L3) this year.

I do have a WB - but she is actually over 65% TB by bloodlines. her dam is my advanced mare and she is by a KWPN stallion with a large chunk of TB blood. She is elegant, moves like a dream and has her dam and sire's superb temperament - she took reserve champion at her foal keuring :D Will she do better than the other horses? - probably as she has been bred for the job and I've got a lot more experience than when I started out with the first one.

[amm2cd]

A side comment about Dutch... I saw plenty of talented Dutch. I have never ridden one unfortunately... but from the look of it, they all look a little "high". Is that true? What are they like?

.

Well, I obviously can't speak for the entire breed, by my Roemer gelding is as sweet as can be from the ground, although at 17+h, he has no other choice :D He can be a tad "high" when in new situations or places, but never out of control or too hot. He just gets that extra spring in his stride and sticks his ears straight up....
My sister has a carriage bred KWPN gelding who is a total jerk on the ground (but he's getting better), but more then willing to do whatever she asks from the saddle. He's about as confident as they come, and definatly not as "high" as he looks.

[Kaeleer]

Freedom, one of my husband's client put an imported Selle Francais stallion (who, before a suspensory injury ended his career, jumped A grade and competed at Medium dressage if memory serves) to one of her Arab mares.

The result is a tall, elegant and absolutely yummy WB/Arab gelding with INCREDIBLE movement. I am totally in love with him and trying to figure out how to bring him home next time my husband makes a trip up there.

Back to the original topic, my personal experience has always been TBs, but I've just acquired my first WB and am currently bringing him on (he was unbacked when I got him). What I enjoy about him is how easy everything is. His downward transitions are more balanced than my TBs were at the same level of training, he is not naturally on the fore. Basically, he is easier to bring on (the only fly in the ointment so far being "forward", but we seem to have got past that one).

I think that this is the reason for the WB success. Although there are a lot of TBs around, and they're cheap to acquire, and some of them have the physique and the movement to compete against the best, I've seen far too many of them ruined by people who lack the ability to retrain a TB, or the patience to do the work required to develop the muscles needed for dressage.

I can't comment on other breeds as I have no experience with them.

[pintopiaffe]

My Arab Xs have beat all Wb's (and a few other crosses) at SHIH and Inspections.

They've won when they've deserved it when shown u/s in open shows by their blue collar AOs.

Can't speak to quals or higher levels as my life is interfering with getting there with my own guy (he'd already be there long ago but for me) and the kids are only this year coming 7 and 8 and getting beyond 1st and 2nd level. There's no reason they *can't* go as far as their riders have the desire, dedication, discipline and talent to go.

[Gayla]

Wellll, if someone tries that out with an Arab, for example, I don't believe that'll work out. :)
Oh no! you're wrong. It could be a TRAK cross...So you would want to go with the TRAK brand on your gear and trailer. I think for most QHs the OLD would be safe. :winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

[Melyni]

I think someone should say their horse is a WB and wear all the gear with the brands on it and just see....:cool::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Did that a few years ago. I had and showed an American Saddlebred gelding. I "lost " the papers and called him a warmblood, showed him through 2nd level and evented him. Then we went foxhunting. Wonderful horse. If I could ever find another with his mind and attitude I'd be a very happy camper.

And a warmblood is by definition a crossbred. It just what they used to cross that varies!

There a plenty of TB who win and do well but not necessarily ex race horses, though Wiley Trout did just fine.

MW

[grayarabpony]

Oh no! you're wrong. It could be a TRAK cross...So you would want to go with the TRAK brand on your gear and trailer. I think for most QHs the OLD would be safe. :winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

:lol: No, I don't think most Arabs could pass for Trak crosses.

[Kaeleer]

My TB is branded, as is my husband's. My boy is about 16hh tall and 16hh wide and is blessed with cadence and a natural bascule. As a result, I'm often asked if he is a WB.

His registered name is Blisterin Barnacles. Now, you find me a WB breeder in the WORLD who would saddle a WB with a name like that! I ask you....

[Gayla]

:lol: No, I don't think most Arabs could pass for Trak crosses.
Many crosses look like one parent more than the other.

[goeslikestink]

yes non-WB's can go through the levels successfully. In the UK to ride PSG or above you have to score 60%+ in Advanced (L4) and if you ever get a score less than 50% you have to requalify.


7/8 TB (although registered AES) mare made Inter I competitively and works to GP level - I retired her to breed a foal.

My little Heinz 57 is a 15.2hh Russian Orlov x TB/Connemara mare, although she looks pure Orlov and often gets mistaken for an Iberian. She has decent scores at Medium/Advanced Medium (L3) and had done one advanced prior to injuring herself last year. She's back competing now and will hopefully go PSG next spring.

I also compete a pure-bred Fell Pony (UK native pony breed from Cumbria) he just missed out on a top 10 placing at medium level at our winter regional champs this year. He has scores of 69% and 67% respectively at elementary (L2) and Medium (L3) this year.

I do have a WB - but she is actually over 65% TB by bloodlines. her dam is my advanced mare and she is by a KWPN stallion with a large chunk of TB blood. She is elegant, moves like a dream and has her dam and sire's superb temperament - she took reserve champion at her foal keuring :D Will she do better than the other horses? - probably as she has been bred for the job and I've got a lot more experience than when I started out with the first one.


prefect exsample-- hi you,, and welcome