Thoughts on baucher bits?

[hoser1]

I have seen a few people riding in baucher bits lately and I am curious about their purpose. I have never ridden in one, always stuck to the good old loose rings. Am I correct that bauchers are legal? Could someone educate me on the purpose of this bit, and what type of horse benefits from one?

[ThoroughbredFancy]

Bauchers are legal. At least last time I checked. I believe they put more pressure on the pole than a regular snaffle.

[Ambrey]

I have seen a few people riding in baucher bits lately and I am curious about their purpose. I have never ridden in one, always stuck to the good old loose rings. Am I correct that bauchers are legal? Could someone educate me on the purpose of this bit, and what type of horse benefits from one?

Bauchers are perfectly legal. The benefit is that the bit hangers keep the bit more stable in the mouth, they are a little more "solid" than a loose ring (and no pinching!)

[PaddyUK]

I use a Sprenger KK Ultra Baucher on one of my boys, he managed to get his tongue over in the loose ring KK.

The stability of the Baucher and the smaller peanut in the link stopped his little party trick.

Bauchers are BD legal in the UK

Paddy

[cleozowner]

I have a baucher...it works wonderfully for my sensitive TB mare who cannot stand any movement in her mouth. I started her in an eggbutt and then tried a loose ring when we started more dressage...loose ring drove her NUTS (and they were the exact same mouthpiece to keep things consistent). She just can't stand the movement. The baucher is great for her because the bit is always held in one spot.

[dwblover]

I've heard they work really well for a lot of fussy-mouthed horses, but not so for my gelding. I tried a french link baucher and he hated it. So I now have the KK Ultra Conrad and he likes it. I know that most people use them for the stability the arms provide. The bit really won't move much at all.

[stryder]

I use a baucher based on my trainer's recommendation - he uses them in his training bridles. They are very stable in the horse's mouth and generally stay flat against the horse's head. The mouthpiece has a gentle curve to it that matches the tongue, and when the mouthpiece "breaks" it doesn't seem to poke into the roof of the horse's mouth.

An earlier thread debunked the theory that the baucher creates more poll pressure.

Although you can spend fairly big money for a baucher, mine is an AlbaCon, about $33 from Dover.

[HOH]

Others are more knowledgeable as to the mechanics of the baucher bit, but my draft cross is lighter on his forehand with the use of this bit. (a good thing!) :)

[eventmom]

Yep, our pony goes in one as well. The albacon from dover no less:) Anyway, we have used a kk ultra in the past and he was fine, but with this one he just seems to seek the bit more. I thought it was pole pressure, but maybe it is because it is softer in his mouth and he likes it.

[craz4crtrs]

I, too, am using the Albacon baucher on my fjord X. He has a very soft mouth and liked his KK loose ring, but he like to move the bit on the rings. Bobbing his nose to pay with the bit was annoying and got in the way of things while riding.

He is much steadier in the baucher than the loose ring.

[AdAblurr02]

I have a baucher...it works wonderfully for my sensitive TB mare who cannot stand any movement in her mouth. I started her in an eggbutt and then tried a loose ring when we started more dressage...loose ring drove her NUTS (and they were the exact same mouthpiece to keep things consistent). She just can't stand the movement. The baucher is great for her because the bit is always held in one spot.

I have one who cant' stand the Baucher for the identical reason - he can't adjust the bit in his mouth, so he gets to worrying at it and then becomes more resistant by the minute. He's MUCH happier in a plain fat snaffle that he can move around a bit. It's all about the individual horse.

[Ajierene]

My mare uses a baucher...after much convincing from my trainer. I used a D-ring snaffle and she would pull down in shows, mostly in cross country, but it helped in dressage as well, since she had a bit of a habit of leaning on me in the dressage ring.

My understanding is the baucher has just a bit more lift than a snaffle. I was warned not to use it all the time or she would get used to it and might start running through it. I use it at shows only and the snaffle at home.

[Hampton Bay]

I ride my mare in a JP Baucher. The mouthpiece is thinner and curved, which my mare really likes. She has a small mouth, so I cannot use anything too thick. She also very much dislikes a french link, and I could never keep a consistent contact with a loose ring.

I also like is as a bit to start youngsters in. They don't seem to lean as much on the baucher as a D, and there is nothing to catch on stuff if the horse gets loose like there would be with a full cheek. And the arms help a bit with the whole steering concept.

[pintopiaffe]

HB--where did you get yours?

I got my original from England, looking to get a 2nd so I don't have to keep swapping it to the double when I want to use the double.

No poll pressure. It's physically impossible. Just hangs in the mouth a certain way that some horses really appreciate.

[didgery]

I had a gelding who LOVED a pelham and went like a lamb in one (even without curb rein action) but who fussed and pulled like a freight train in any sort of snaffle. I bought him a french link baucher, and . . . voila! A MUCH happier horse. He just seemed to like that stable feeling.

[TNGFARM]

The Baucher bit is legal. I have used it on stallions that have a big neck and that could use their necks against you. The cheek pieces are connected directly to the bit and the rein is connected to the ring, which will stabilize the bit easier. There is no poll pressure involved. It is the direct pressure of the cheek piece to the bit that is the greatness of the bit. It is a good bit on certain horses.

I have also used them with horses that had "tongue" problems.

[Ambrey]

The Baucher bit is legal. I have used it on stallions that have a big neck and that could use their necks against you. The cheek pieces are connected directly to the bit and the rein is connected to the ring, which will stabilize the bit easier. There is no poll pressure involved. It is the direct pressure of the cheek piece to the bit that is the greatness of the bit. It is a good bit on certain horses.

That sounds upside down :confused:

[Ajierene]

That sounds upside down :confused:

For clarification:

http://www.123tack.com/winning/dept.asp?s_id=0&dept_name=Baucher+Bits&dept_id=3172&gclid=CPi0huv2zJQCFQSwFQodd3Twlg

The little ring (on top in the first line of pictures) attaches to the cheek piece and the big ring is where the reins are attached.

The cheek piece does not move around the ring like loose ring, eggbut, d-ring type bits, but stays in place.

It is similar to using the keepers in a full cheek snaffle. If keepers are in place in a full cheek snaffle, you actually change the way the bit sits and works in the mouth.

[Ambrey]

I use a Baucher. Just the way TNG described it, it sounded like she was putting the cheek pieces in the bit ring and the reins in the small ring, which is upside down. I might have just read it wrong :)

[Ajierene]

It is all good - that's why I used the picture to clarify. Sometimes words are really clear to one person and a complete mystery to another (I had to stop reading the Renvers vs. Travers thread because it made my head swim).

[allcowgirl13]

I use a 5-1/4" Boucher w/ a French Link....awesome! Bit of Britain always carries inexpensive ones around $35. Helps to relax the poll, the french link gives them something to play with and the 2 of us are happy, happy, happy!:D

Remember, if you are moving from a loose ring or "reg" snaffle to a boucher, buy 1/4" bigger for the proper fit.

Even my western pleasure/pattern horse loves the boucher some dressage too!

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is a much more severe bit, and backs them off the bridle - not what I am looking for my dressage horses to do.

[Ambrey]

Wow, FHC, that's the first time I've ever heard that. Why do you think so?

[Fairview Horse Center]

That is what I have seen in the horses that use them. It teaches them to hold their head in a position, and not have a "dialog" with the riders hands.

[Ambrey]

That is what I have seen in the horses that use them. It teaches them to hold their head in a position, and not have a "dialog" with the riders hands.

Interesting!

My horse really likes the pelham with the mullen, even when I don't even touch the curb rein (I leave it loopy most of the time, much to my trainer's chagrin). I think I will try a mullen on him for my next bit experiment- he's in an albacon german silver baucher, single link right now.

[fiftysomething]

I have seen a few people riding in baucher bits lately and I am curious about their purpose. I have never ridden in one, always stuck to the good old loose rings. Am I correct that bauchers are legal? Could someone educate me on the purpose of this bit, and what type of horse benefits from one?

It is legal for dressage, and my trainer advised me to try it for my friesian cross. Results are that he is lighter on the front end with it. yahooooo

[allcowgirl13]

Forgive me Fairview, but I seem to have just the opposite with a Welsh Cob and my APHA mare that tends to me too heavy on the front end in anything but the Baucher that was introduced to me by a French-style dressage trainer down the road from you.

Both horses are more accepting of the bridle and responsive, something I've found many lower level riders truly need. Both are back underneath themselves on their hindquarters (off the forehand) carrying themselves in a proper frame and riding into the bridle - that is what I'm supposed to be doing?

Let's just say the Baucher is a tool that tells the horse what is expected of them and meets with immediate submission and no "see-sawing" of the reins or warm-up exercises that quite frankly exhaust the rider before entering at A.

"Asking, not forcing" is so much easier with a Baucher. It's been a god-send. So was the trainer that introduced me to it!

[Tucked_Away]

That is what I have seen in the horses that use them. It teaches them to hold their head in a position, and not have a "dialog" with the riders hands.

Not if used properly.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Forgive me Fairview, but I seem to have just the opposite with a Welsh Cob and my APHA mare that tends to me too heavy on the front end in anything but the Baucher that was introduced to me by a French-style dressage trainer down the road from you.

"Asking, not forcing" is so much easier with a Baucher. It's been a god-send. So was the trainer that introduced me to it!

There are a lot of trainers "down the road from me" - good and bad. Your words remind me of the Dominique clan - nuff said.

The responses here prove the point. The horse instantly becomes lighter and more responsive. That IS what they do with a more severe bit. They don't learn to lighten by engagement of the hindquarters, but because of increased pain if they don't hold themselves up off that bit. You can get the same reaction with any more severe bit. To me it is a cheat to get what "looks" like dressage, but does not have the quality of real dressage. I want my horse reaching for the contact, seeking my hand, not backed off. I want to lighten my horse with my leg, not my hand. Back to front. The head is a clear sign of the correctness of the rest of the work. When the body and engagement is right, the horse will be correct in your hand. If he is not, that is a sign that the training is not right. I don't want to remove that test of correctness.

The French and German methods of dressage AND the type of bit evolved from the kind of horse they had available. The Germans had heavier horses, less reactive, so their methods were more pushing forward - expression of the gaits. The French had a lighter, hotter horse. They needed the stop/brakes, and their methods are all about backing off the too forward horse - control.

Any trainer that uses a baucher bit is one I don't want training my horses, or giving dressage lessons. Also, for what it is worth, I don't see a lot of the French having great success in dressage. If I want to learn how to ski, my guess is that a trainer from Central America wouldn't be the best choice.

[Tucked_Away]

The responses here prove the point. The horse instantly becomes lighter and more responsive. That IS what they do with a more severe bit. They don't learn to lighten by engagement of the hindquarters, but because of increased pain if they don't hold themselves up off that bit. You can get the same reaction with any more severe bit. To me it is a cheat to get what "looks" like dressage, but does not have the quality of real dressage. I want my horse reaching for the contact, seeking my hand, not backed off. I want to lighten my horse with my leg, not my hand. Back to front. The head is a clear sign of the correctness of the rest of the work. When the body and engagement is right, the horse will be correct in your hand. If he is not, that is a sign that the training is not right. I don't want to remove that test of correctness.


I ride with a trainer who subscribes to the German school. An event trainer, so yes, we mostly have lighter horses in the barn, but one who does very well with the dressage (per the local straight dressage folks as well as the eventers).

We have a couple of horses in the barn who go in bauchers, or who have in the past. My guy--who started out wanting to be above the bit, backed off and unsteady in the contact--spent the winter in one, and that was the winter in which he learned to "reach[] for the contact, seek[] my hand, not back[] off". This is of course only one case and we've since taken him out of it (for reasons unrelated to being unhappy with his performance in it), but the stability of the baucher was, in this particular case, very useful in teaching him what you're claiming can't be taught in that bit.

You may not believe me, and that's certainly your right. But your description bears no resemblance to my experience using the bit or watching it used by others in my barn.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Istarted out wanting to be above the bit, backed off

I'm confused. Above the bit is one that has not dropped his head yet, but carries the contact higher. This is fixed by training, engagement, riding back to front, rhythm, tracking up thru a relaxed back, etc. "Backed off" is one that has curled over too much, and dropped the contact. This is fixed by going back to basics and riding the horse "above the bit" for about a year, until they learn to trust the hand again.

[Bliss92]

It is a much more severe bit, and backs them off the bridle - not what I am looking for my dressage horses to do.

Never had that experience! I've found the stability of the bit can really encourage some horses to move into the bit, instead of away from it. I've had great success with it, on some of the horses I've used it on (which isn't many, as I like to stay in a snaffle unless they obviously need something else). I've seen a huge difference in horses who just needed the stability that the boucher gives.

I *hate* riding a horse that backs away from the bit. I grew up riding ponies (nuff said!) and can't stand a horse who sucks back behind the bit, and then has his way with me. So, needless to say, if any horse I had put in a baucher had backed off, I most definitely wouldn't be a fan of the bit.

I really don't see how it can cause them to back off - there's no leverage, and minimal poll pressure at best. That doesn't scream harsh to me. :no:

[Tucked_Away]

I'm confused. Above the bit is one that has not dropped his head yet, but carries the contact higher. This is fixed by training, engagement, riding back to front, rhythm, tracking up thru a relaxed back, etc. "Backed off" is one that has curled over too much, and dropped the contact. This is fixed by going back to basics and riding the horse "above the bit" for about a year, until they learn to trust the hand again.

Difference in terminology. Your "backed off" sounds like what I'm familiar with described as "behind the bit." "Backed off", to me, is a reluctance to stretch/reach into contact that can manifest in any number of ways. The semantics are not the point. This:

...the stability of the baucher was, in this particular case, very useful in teaching him what you're claiming can't be taught in that bit...

is the point.

[PaulaM]

FHC, I have had the exact opposite reaction for my horse. I started riding him in a Baucher on June 21. Prior to that I was riding him in a Loose Ring French Link Snaffle and before that a Full Cheek French Link. He has always had a tendency to drop back behind the vertical and we have been working hard to correct this.

This picture is from his second ride in the Baucher:

http://www3.telus.net/public/rmeehan/IMG_1368.jpg

For him, the big fat loose ring bit as well as the full cheek were to large of a diameter for his mouth. He has a rather low pallet. He much prefers the stability of this bit in his mouth.

Any bit can be severe, it all depends on the individuals hands and how soft or hard they are.

[Miss-O]

I'm very curious for Fairview Horse Center to explain exactly why she/he thinks this bit is "much more severe". Because honestly I don't see how it's any more or less severe then any other snaffle out there.

IME horses who are ridden in more harsh bits do not get lighter and more responsive, at least not in the long run. IME they get heavier and less responsive with more resistance problems. It's always worked out the other way around for me, put the less responsive horse in a less harsh bit, they are more comfortable with and they become more responsive, less resistant, lighter and more likely to go forward comfortably.

My mare always had a fussy mouth and was never ridden in anything more harsh then a single jointed D. She did terrible in a french link O-ring, a little better in a full cheek but absolutely best of all the baucher. Now she is much more likely to seek out contact, whereas before she was setting her head, behind the bit and just in general not as happy as she is now.

[Tiki]

It is a much more severe bit, and backs them off the bridle - not what I am looking for my dressage horses to doThere is absolutely NOTHING severe about the Baucher. It is just a snaffle, after all. It has NO poll pressure - you need a curb chain to get that.

One of the reasons so many horses go soooooo well and quietly in it is that it doesn't rest on the bars of the mouth, but rather 'hangs' in the mouth by the direct connection to the cheek pieces and acts more on the corners of the mouth. It is a mild bit. Some horses have large mouths, some small, some high palates, some low, and some have very, very thin padding on the bars of their mouths and are very disturbed by the constant pressure of a bit on the bars of the mouth - even if just resting there and not even having pressure by bad hands.

Pintopiaffe - You can get the NS Baucher with the lozenge in this country here (http://www.hastilowusa.com/).You just have to plow through the bits section to find it. Even on this site it says there is poll pressure, but that is impossible without the leverage of a curb chain or strap.

[SoCalEquestrienne]

There is absolutely NOTHING severe about the Baucher.
I agree with this.

But:
It has NO poll pressure - you need a curb chain to get that.

I disagree with this statement, that's not what physics says. For a simple example take a classic gag bit, which is a snaffle mouthpiece, but as you pull on the reins, the bit slides up the cheek, and you definitely get poll pressure. The net effect is typically "lifting" though because the pull down along the cheekpiece at the poll is balanced by the pull upward along the cheekpiece at the mouth and the mouth is more sensitive.

Any bit that moves in such a way that the tension on the cheekpiece is increased causes some poll pressure, but that's usually not the most relevant thing. A Baucher can have a very slight elevating effect because a little of the rein action may be translated into rotation of the bit, which would be translated into tension on the cheek piece which physically has to be balanced by pressure on the poll.

A curb chain actually limits the amount of rotation of the bit by creating pressure under the jaw and pulling the bit down against the mouth somewhat.

If you are close enough to your physics classes, try drawing the force diagrams and you'll see what I mean. But the force diagrams don't tell the whole story, because it's where the horse is sensitive that really counts, and that can vary somewhat from horse to horse.

[class]

too bad fairview had to really show off her ignorance in this thread, that can't be good for business.

the baucher works exactly the same way as a full cheek snaffle that has keepers attached.

my trainer also believed that there was a "slight" amount of poll pressure applied with the baucher bit until i challenged her to make it happen with my horse. from the ground we stood there and yanked the reins every which way we could imagine and no matter which direction or strength was pulled, it made the cheekpieces of the bridle gape, there is no poll pressure at all.

[Tiki]

It has NO poll pressure - you need a curb chain to get that. I disagree with this statement, that's not what physics says. For a simple example take a classic gag bit, which is a snaffle mouthpiece, but as you pull on the reins, the bit slides up the cheek, and you definitely get poll pressure. The net effect is typically "lifting" though because the pull down along the cheekpiece at the poll is balanced by the pull upward along the cheekpiece at the mouth and the mouth is more sensitive.
Yeah, but the gag is also a leverage bit. I believe the comparison was really about snaffles.

[pintopiaffe]

If a baucher is severe, so is a fullcheek with keepers. Virtually identical action.

[Foxhound]

I used to ride a little QH who was initially reluctant to go to the bit. After a little trial and error, we found that he was happiest and took the best contact in a baucher bit, with a dropped noseband.
Go figure.

Edited to add:
Hoser1, if you want to borrow my baucher, you are welcome to it.

[Posting Trot]

My experience with a baucher has been that my horse likes it better than a standard loose ring. I define "like" as: in the loose-ring (and I've tried several different mouthpieces) she crunches the bit more or less continuously and often tries to evade the bit by being behind it.

In the baucher she is much quieter with her mouth, and she will stretch into the bit.

It's a very nice bit for her, but not all horses (or riders, or trainers) will love it. Which is why there are 8 pages or so of bits in the Dover catalog.

[easyrider]

There are bauchers and then there are bauchers. A lot of the difference in how they operate -- poll pressure vs. no poll pressure, harshness vs. gentleness -- is due to the construction of the individual bit. I learned this from Alixe Etherington, whose family manufactured the Dewsbury bits.

The baucher was originally designed to exert a degree of poll pressure. However, in order to do so, the mouthpiece must be attached to the ring in a slightly higher than central position. This causes the cheek to tilt when activated, which lengthens the distance the cheek piece covers, creating the slight poll pressure. If the mouthpiece is attached directly in line with the rein, the cheek doesn't tilt and therefore there's no poll pressure. The bit also then becomes a much gentler bit.

Through the years, I've noticed that most baucher bits are fabricated with the mouthpiece directly in the center of the ring rather than higher up, so most of them do not exert the slight poll pressure that was intended to be one of the effects of the traditional baucher (and which takes place in the Dewsbury baucher I have).

Admittedly, poll pressure is probably far less important than stability and lack of pressure on the bars when evaluating the effectiveness of this bit for any particular horse.

[Sandy M]

My now reitired horse was fussy in a loose ring, accepting a good contact sometimes, going slightly above the bit at others, through sometimes, hollowing his back others. He had a big tongue, low palate. I tried the french link Baucher with him, and he was not instantly "light" (he was ALWAYS "light"), but hewould reach for the bit, take a contact more steadily, work through his back more willingly. This is a horse that would stop dead on a whisper whoa, go "on the bit" (i.e., assume a frame) in a halter, but not be truely through. With the Baucher he was much happier. Though the picture in my profile is too small for the bit to be seen, he is in a Baucher and the shot was taken just as I was asking him to stretch down, at the canter. He looks happy to me, and not at all reacting to a "severe" bit.

[Tiffany fairfield]

First I would like to introduce myself , My name is Tiffany and I am living in Jakarta indonesia , I have 5 horses and all of them now use a baucher bit, after reading some of the stuff on here i am amazed at what people say, I have a 22 year old KWPN who I bought when he was a 7 year old and he came to me with a tounge problem it was always out and flopping around for years I was told to crank the flash closed and put a tounge sepresser in his mouth , at that time he was in a "nice" KK ultra snaffle. Of course I did none of the things i was told to do I was shock at the thought that he was going to be uncomfortable so I just worked with him for years and he did improve but we still had the tounge problem until I had a lady that moved to indonesia and told me about the Baucher ( a god sent) she also told me to take off the flash and losen the caverson so with a new found hope i went ahead and tried it , well to my compleat and utter shock within 20 mins I has white lip stick pooring from his mouth somthing that was so hard to get seamed so simple and amazing there was not a tounge in sight . Well you can imagin how thrilled I was , so we started to do more and more dressage work. Up until this point he was my jumping horse and had done very well but now we could do dressage as the tounge was in his mouth where it stayed. He is now at prix st george level and as that it as high as we go I see no point in pushing the old man to do more even though we do have a go at pieff and passage . He loves this bit so much he will even open his mouth to take it and has not trouble coming to the contact.


Now to the new horse that I just bought of a friend of mine as she was so frustrated with his mouth problem even the slightest of contact and he would throw his head in the air in a fit of rage , so I thought well I will buy him i fix him up so yet again i took off the flash and poped in the baucher and off we went oh what a dream he was straight into the contact glorious lip stick and what a soft back , now i am not saying that i am a horse fixer oh no i know that all of this is coming from the horses that I ride why you may ask well that just seam to really like this bit and so far every horses that has had a bitting problem of a mouth problem has taken to this magic bit like a duck to water.


I am going to be try a baucher on a horse that has spent the last year of its life in draw reins forcing its head down to it chest, the reason being is that the rider says that he is so strong and he puts his head in the air so the only way she can ride him is in draw reins I believe that he is just not happy in the mouth so let us see how this bit goes on him I will write back and let you know how it all goes I am keeping my fingers crossed as i dont think that draw reins are the right way to go and he is a advance level dressage horse .... in draw reins you say maybe thats why he does not proform so well cuz when they come off his head is right in the air .... do this have to do with the rider as well to me yes if you cant ride your horse without draw reins then there is something wrong!!!!!!! lets hope that I can change this.