4yr old WB- How to go FORWARD???

[Emstah]

Hi everyone! I'm an event rider and have always worked 100% with TBs. I am now working with a WB (Rhinelander) for the first time and I need some serious help! He's 4, was broken by someone else last fall. I have been working with him on basic W,T,C.

So, here's the question- how the heck do I get him to go forward! He would rather stand in the middle of the ring all day long than do anything else. I am so used to the hot TBs that just want to GO that I am having a hard time with this boy.

I know he's young and I really don't want to rush or hurry him, but I've never seen anything like it! :lol: He will stop dead in his tracks if I am not squeeeeeeeeeezing every step of the way. He doesn't care at all if I use the dressage whip on him to reinforce the leg- totally ignores it! He is SO much different than any 4yr old I've ever ridden. He's perfectly cheerful and not at all naughty, he's just plain lazy!

Is this normal for a young WB? Should I just keep at it and he will eventually get it? Help!! :)

[ise@ssl]

We've had a couple like this and we free-lunge them in the covered arena. Takes 2 people - 3 is better if it's a big arena. Tack on - including side reins. Lunge him first then position the people so they are on the center line and send him around the outside walk and trot - change direction across the diagonal - but keep him moving FORWARD. When he balks - get after him. When he goes both directions and is moving forward - stop him -get on and repeat the exact pattern both ways and get off.

Do this a few days in a row and he will start to get the concept that he needs to keep going forward.

We actually use the free-lunging for all of our horses and ponies when we start them.

[WindsongEq]

.....you are probably desensitizing him with every step. Riding hot TB's are very different from cool WB's. You should NOT squeeeeeezzzzzzeeee every step, but stretch your leg down, ride with NO leg, then push one sitting bone forward, small touch with your calves and then MAKE him go go go, even gallop with a touch of your spur or whip....repeat. The hardest part of this exercise is to keep your legs off.
I also went from Hot tb's to my first cool WB showed Tr & 1st level, got good scores as he was a big mover, but I could feel it wasn't right, I was just working too hard, harder than it felt like he was working! So.... i switched instructors and I started riding with Jeff Moore. He gave me the "use a sitting bone, and then run like the wind" lessons....took me about a year of lessons with him then I could make any horse that was "lazy" go off of light aids...The stronger you are squeezing, the more "shut down" he will be come...

[Emstah]

WindsongEq- I agree 100%, but how do I do it? He is completely unresponsive to whip/spur and if I don't add leg every stride he literally will not move! The second I take my leg off even a fraction, he slams on the brakes (think whiplash!!)- whip/+ spur= NO response! It's like riding a sofa! :lol: And just like you say, I am working WAY harder than he is!! haha

ise- I think that seems like it may help him. I have free lunged him and he moves forward quite nicely, but it's the transition from the free lunge to going forward from the rider, so this may be very good for him!

Thank you!

[FlashGordon]

He is a baby so still learning, quite possible he just does not understand leg aids.

Any chance you can get him out of the arena to work on some of this stuff?

Hacking him out would be really beneficial, they are all inclined to be more forward outside. Good for their brain and their body and I bet when you go back to the arena he will be a bit sharper.

You can also work on this on the ground, using a dressage whip, and praising him every time he goes forward. Then do the same under saddle. Doesn't matter how he goes forward, or at what gait, just that he GOES FORWARD.

Honestly if you get really assertive, allow him to go forward even if he jumps or scoots or whatever, then praise.... the problem usually resolves pretty quick and they actually become really nice and sharp to the aids.

The trick is letting them go forward, and not blocking them....

[WindsongEq]

I would suggest you do a combo of lungeing, then once he goes well on the lunge line (Get one of the telewhips from Dressage extensions) put a rider on him. They need to keep their legs off and you can get him to go with the lungeing techniques you have developed over the course of a week or two...plus they can carry a dressage whip(No side reins with a human on his back...too dangerous this early on for the rider/horse)
have the rider keep their legs off, use a sitting bone and calves to ask him to trot (even if he stops only use the small aid) and then touch with spur or whip til he "bustles" forward. (The person with the telewhip can assist until he "learns" to go freely forward)
Do not ever fall into the over use of the leg trap. Start at halt, legs off, use a seat bone, calves and then make him bustle. If you are already nagging him with your leg, then you take it off, he will of course stop....you are on the wrong path with no light at the end of the tunnel...
Come off that path, start at halt with your legs off, use a sitting bone.....etc.

[egontoast]

When you are free lungeing or working in hand teach him some specific cues ( words or 'clucking') . Be very disciplined about it. You 'cluck' he must GO! IMMEDIATELY or his pants are on fire. :eek: Train him to be hot off this verbal aid. No nag nag nag, maybe I'll go, maybe I won't.

When this is established after a few sessions you get on and pair the light aid with the verbal cue. Again, you must be very disciplined and never accept a poor response. You praise a good response and don't over do it to the point where he is tired. Get your crisp responses and keep it short and sweet, initially. If you need someone on the ground with a lunge whip for a few rides, that's OK, too. Anything's better than trying to squeesze it out of him.

On the ground it is easier to train this in because you don't worry about getting too big a response and there are no conflicting aids stopping him.

As you know already, pushing and squeezing does nothing except shut the horse down. They aren't born knowing your leg means go. I find teaching a solid verbal aid first helps to bridge that gap and teach the meaning of the leg aid.

Getting outside the ring is good and riding with others can help as well, initially, to give the horse the idea of marching forward with a rider on..

[easyklc]

It took my mare at least 6 months to find that forward button. For her it was just the young, green "what the hell do you want" thing. Teach him forward by doing it three ways: Ask, Tell, Make. Throw out that flimsy dressage whip and get yourself a jocky whip (the heavy kind that bends) with a big ass popper on it. I fell into the same trap as you by thinking I had to have my leg working at all times. Do not ever work more than your horse! :D You'll just exhaust yourself and end up frustrated.

I spent weeks just working on the walk. Her idea was to just lolly gag around at a snails pace. So, it was leg on and if no response then I popped her hard just behind my leg. Loose rein and let her spurt forward saying "good girl." Repeat about one thousand times. I also inserted lateral work into the mix so her brain was engaged on moving and listening. Then weeks of trot work with transitions to the point of tears (of joy mostly). I now have a forward horse going nicely off my slightest leg aid. I do still need the whip sometimes, and that is just the nature of my big, big, big horse.

I also highly recommend getting out of the ring and hacking out either alone or in company. Riding in circles can really dull a young horse. Go for some gallops, do trot sets and let him know moving forward is fun.

Good luck. I feel your pain. It is doable though believe me. If I can survive and fix a 1300# Belgian/QH anything is possible!

[grayarabpony]

I know, broken record -- make sure he's not hurting anywhere. Quick and easy way to tell is have someone knowledgable check accupuncture points. It doesn't tell you everything but it'll let you know if the horse is hurting. And check saddle fit.

Do you ride in company? That can be very very beneficial for a young horse, just to follow along with other horses without the rider having to nag.

[lstevenson]

When you are free lungeing or working in hand teach him some specific cues ( words or 'clucking') . Be very disciplined about it. You 'cluck' he must GO! IMMEDIATELY or his pants are on fire. :eek: Train him to be hot off this verbal aid. No nag nag nag, maybe I'll go, maybe I won't.

When this is established after a few sessions you get on and pair the light aid with the verbal cue. Again, you must be very disciplined and never accept a poor response. You praise a good response and don't over do it to the point where he is tired. Get your crisp responses and keep it short and sweet, initially. If you need someone on the ground with a lunge whip for a few rides, that's OK, too. Anything's better than trying to squeesze it out of him.

On the ground it is easier to train this in because you don't worry about getting too big a response and there are no conflicting aids stopping him.

As you know already, pushing and squeezing does nothing except shut the horse down. They aren't born knowing your leg means go. I find teaching a solid verbal aid first helps to bridge that gap and teach the meaning of the leg aid.


Yep. This is what I do too. It is pretty much the only thing that really works with this type of horse. Using a voice aid to bridge the gap prevents the common problem (which not all horses will do, but it is certainly worth preventing the young horse from learning a new bad habit) of the horse acting out with bucking or rearing when the whip is used under saddle to make the horse go forward. They learn on the ground what is the correct response to the voice aid and to the whip. Then those two aids can be used to help the horse understand what the leg aids mean.

Then, and from then on, the rider on this type of horse has to be very careful not to use the leg indiscriminantly.

[slc2]

It's a big adjustment from Thoroughbreds that my old trainer used to say, 'Drag you around all the time', so you get in the habit of sitting there not using your leg. With warmbloods, you have to use your leg, and get obedience to it, with more of them.

Take riding lessons from someone familiar with warmbloods. They don't have to be 'dull' or need constant squeezing. Get some lessons and have the instructor show you how to make your horse go. It's not hard. You just have to change how you use your reins and legs. Don't get into that habit of squeezing every stride, or in a couple years, you will need an Oxygen tank after every ride.

[goeslikestink]

Hi everyone! I'm an event rider and have always worked 100% with TBs. I am now working with a WB (Rhinelander) for the first time and I need some serious help! He's 4, was broken by someone else last fall. I have been working with him on basic W,T,C.

So, here's the question- how the heck do I get him to go forward! He would rather stand in the middle of the ring all day long than do anything else. I am so used to the hot TBs that just want to GO that I am having a hard time with this boy.

I know he's young and I really don't want to rush or hurry him, but I've never seen anything like it! :lol: He will stop dead in his tracks if I am not squeeeeeeeeeezing every step of the way. He doesn't care at all if I use the dressage whip on him to reinforce the leg- totally ignores it! He is SO much different than any 4yr old I've ever ridden. He's perfectly cheerful and not at all naughty, he's just plain lazy!

Is this normal for a young WB? Should I just keep at it and he will eventually get it? Help!! :)

ok, with hot or lazy neds as i call them, ie inn his case lazy as not going forwards
you need to be sharper with your aids in both cases of either the hot horse or the lazy one

so what to do, kick and click at the same time- and send him into gallop
once he goes pat him, repeat until he gets it into his brians that its a good idea
once he has, then he should go of the tweak of your heal, chnage the dressage whip to crop if nessacary so it enforces your kick with a tap on the bum-- as dresage whips dont have the leather tab it, ok

then once hes got it change back to dressage whip, and work the horse in the areana
on shortening and lengtening his strides with half halt stride -- to learn the half halt do it walk and down gears 1st easier for the horse to learn as nowhere to go but stop
then do it up gears and into all combinations of walk and trot etc

dot let him anstipate your moves antispate his, and get him going
if nesscary - you can if able to, do what i do use 2 schooling whips if you dont know how to then tell me ok dokey

[dutchfan]

What Egon said is correct - forward starts on the lunge. I agree that he must GO!. Set that parameter first. And don't accept less than full effort to your aids every single time.

BTW - if he is registered Rheinland Pfalz Saar (RPSI) he is not a "rhinelander" he is a Zweibrucker!

[FriesianX]

If you have access to a gallop track or decent footing outside of the ring somewhere, work on galloping him, make it fun! Once he gets the hang of it (and it may take riding with someone else whose horse has a "go" button), he'll enjoy it...

[BaroquePony]

I would definately start him on the longe line first. Teach the voice commands for walk, trot, canter and of course halt. If you will crack your whip (in the air), he'll get used to the sound meaning go, if he doesn't go you can snap it (make it sting a bit) it on his side where your leg will be when you are riding. If he's really a slug you can snap it on his behind. Make sure you use your voice command in unison with the whip.

When you start riding him carry a bat with a wide popper, something that makes a loud smacking sound when you use it. Ask with your leg and voice command first. If he doesn't get it, ask with voice command, leg and popper right behind leg at the same time. You may need to add spurs to the mix.

Going out on trails with someone else leading part of the time can help a lot. Carry your bat. You may need to wear spurs.

Keeping your legs on his side should not make him deadened to the leg unless your legs aren't quiet and steady. The whole purpose of having a "good leg" is to school the horse in such a way that your leg is always in a position to use it (a nudge, a light quick squeeze, a bump) with every stride if you need it.

Your horse only gets dead to the leg when you aren't making it very clear what you are asking with the leg. When you ad a nudge with each stride he should be bringing his hind leg up and actively. That is something you need to teach him. The nudge means NOW, not tommorrow.

Seat bones should be used in part for something else ... you can actually "suck up" a horse's back with your buns (or do a half halt which is the opposite of sucking up the horse's back) while you are activating the hind legs with your legs.

Although seat and legs can work in unison, they should also be in a position to work independently so that you can control the back of the horse and activate the hind legs at the same time.

Example: if you want a perfectly square engaged halt where you horse is in a "ready" postion to "explode" (transition) into the canter as the next movement, you must be able to brace your back (half halt) at the same time you are asking your horse's hind legs to keep moving up under himself by using your leg aids. That is an example of the seat bones working independently of the leg aids.

If you teach your horse to just go forward off of your seat bones, you have thrown away a very important set of aids. Then you have circus riding.

Edited to ad: a good leg position is one where when wearing spurs, the spurs do not touch the horse's sides even though the leg is in light contact and "wrapped" around the side of the horse. The toes should be turned in a little and the ankles out slightly and always supple. The spur should not touch the horse unless you want it too.

[egontoast]

I teach the words walk, trot, canter, halt words on the lunge. They learn this, or at least walk, trot and halt, before backing. I also teach the 'cluck' sound which basically means 'more'.

[slc2]

It IS very important to get a forward warmup on a longe line with these horses.

But what I very often see is that the forward aids on the longe line are very clear and effective and the horse is very cooperative when that big long whip is in hand and tickling him - the problem starts immediately after - under saddle, where the rider has to learn to change how he uses his reins and leg aids for these horses. And I don't feel that galloping in a field teaches obedience to the leg. All it teaches the horse is that he doesn't have to go forward unless he wants to, which is the whole problem. In a field, he wants to go.

Most riders who ride any length of time have faced this with the less nervous horse who doesn't just 'drag you around'. this sort of horse makes one a much better rider and really teaches you how to coordinate your aids.

Make sure there is a clear even if very, very slight release on the reins, use your leg, immediately back it up with the whip and demand a huge reaction every time you use your leg. Ask once and demand an absolutely immediate reaction without any delay - no squeeze squeeze squeeze. it can take 30 seconds or less to fix the whole thing.

Usually the problem is the delay, and the multiple leg aids and THEN reinforce it, which only teaches the horse that after multiple leg aids, wait for the whip. that probably isn't what one wants to teach at all. But without that immediate reaction being demanded most horses just don't really learn to be obedient to the leg. You have to just move very, very quickly. Leg - whip! instant. i think in trying to be kind and gentle and cutting the horse a break, many people get into trouble that way.

[RiverBendPol]

I think the difference here is that Emstah's TBs do not "drag her around". Rather, they are so eager to please that the second she asks for something with her leg, even as babies, not knowing anything, they will try to find what she's looking for, instantly. She is so used to the instant response that this youngster is a bit of a puzzle! :winkgrin: The horse she's asking about doesn't give a fig about leg OR whip. He has a zone-out place that he goes. She COULD beat him till tomorrow and he wouldn't change a thing! It is pretty wierd, actually. He's cheerful and pain free, he just either doesn't get it AT ALL or he just plain doesn't care. Thanks for all of your great suggestions. She's heading out to ride him now. We'll see!.......

[slc2]

but that's the whole problem in a nutshell. and no, thb are not 'eagerer to please' than warmbloods, they are just different in how they react to training.

the idea is NOT to 'beat the horse til tomorrow', it takes a couple seconds to fix this and change how you use your leg and rein. the best thing is to have someone get on the horse and show her, and then her get on, and feel the difference, and have that same person come back from time to time and keep reinforcing her for using the new method. it's just a different way of riding the horse.

I'm not saying they literally 'drag you around', it's just a semi joking phrase one commonly hears, that came from the hunter scene originally, i think, it means you don't really have to figure out how to use your leg.

[merrygoround]

See BaroquePony. :yes: :yes:

That is the best answer. Yes you want him forward on the longe too. A telescoping whip works wonders. Good for your upper arms too. :lol:

[RiverBendPol]

but that's the whole problem in a nutshell. and no, thb are not 'eagerer to please' than warmbloods, they are just different in how they react to training.

the idea is NOT to 'beat the horse til tomorrow', it takes a couple seconds to fix this and change how you use your leg and rein. the best thing is to have someone get on the horse and show her, and then her get on, and feel the difference, and have that same person come back from time to time and keep reinforcing her for using the new method. it's just a different way of riding the horse.

I'm not saying they literally 'drag you around', it's just a semi joking phrase one commonly hears, that came from the hunter scene originally, i think, it means you don't really have to figure out how to use your leg.
:eek::eek:I did NOT mean she actually WOULD beat the horse till tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol: It is just funny that he is so different from what she's used to.

[MyReality]

I agree most with egontoast and SLC.

Espcially with SLC, that hitting the trails or riding in open field is not the solution. I know too many horses who sulk in the ring, but become a different horse in the trails, not what you want. It only works on horses, who are prevented to go forward for so long, they forget they can go... or for horses to develop wind.

The horse already does not respect the whip or the leg. It tells me either it's used too often, and it's used to lightly, or it's not quick. You're looking at increasing the expectation, and being quicker and firmer in the consequence. It took just that one big whack, it HAS to sting, for some horses to get the idea... and it is easier to be taught from the ground first.

Think about it, if a horse is stung by a bee, he WILL run, isn't it? If a lion is trying to sink his teeth into his royal hind, he WILL go. If he doesn't respond to your whip or leg and he felt them alright, they totally did not activate his flight instinct!

I recommend not using spur on a young horse. You use spur now, you have nothing when they are older.

BaroquePony also made a good point. Some young horse respond more with a whip with popper.

Lastly. Make sure the saddle fits. Make sure your riding position is correct.

[BaroquePony]

It took just that one big whack, it HAS to sting, for some horses to get the idea... and it is easier to be taught from the ground first.

:yes:

I did edit my spurs comment. When wearing spurs they should not come into contact with the side of the horse except on rare occasions.

If you are out riding on a young horse and he freezes to look at something, it is really nice to have a blunt spur to sort of rub around on his side, or maybe rake it a bit, oe even a sharp jab (depends on horse), to bring his attention back to your leg and forward.

Bottom line, always forward, NOW, not tommorrow. Carry that bat. Bats with wide poppers are also excellent for killing those nasty biting deer flies.

[slc2]

Original poster, when you say 'she could beat the horse til tomorrow', I think you mean, 'The horse just is not sensitive'.

The suggestion is that the horse is born insensitive.

They aren't.

They are BORN the same as other horses.

The reality is, that the warmblood is no less sensitive than any other horse, his nerves work the same and he feels pain and everything just like any horse, the truth is that They are much easier to MAKE INSENSITIVE than other horses.

ThAT is what happens. They are MADE insensitive more easily. We MAKE THEM INSENSITIVE BY HOW WE RIDE THEM. WE TRAIN THEM TO BE INSENSITIVE.

My friend had a DRAFT horse, a PERCHERON, that was 15 hands tall and weighed 1800 lbs. He was the hugest, fattest thing you could imagine. He stood around all the time with his lower lip hanging down. And when you put your leg on his side, he flew like a bird. WHY? HE WAS TRAINED TO DO SO.

[EqTrainer]

I think the subject has been well covered, I just wanted to remind/reiterate to NOT use your seat to send this horse forward - you will be sorry later, when you actually need to use your seat for what it is supposed to be used for - catching energy, not making it, or initiating it. Keep it still :)

[BaroquePony]

that was 15 hands tall and weighed 1800 lbs.

I am still trying to wrap my brain around that image :rolleyes:

[slc2]

There is a picture in Summerhaye's old breed book that looks exactly like him. It's the one of the old-fashioned Ardennes.

When people say 'My horse is a tank', I laugh and laugh and laugh.

THAT was a tank. About as broad as he was tall, and his back had a huge crease in it, LOL, his butt from the back looked like two hills in the appalachias, LOL. His feet were as broad a dinner plate. I used to do yoga just so I could sit on him, ROFLMAO!

Magnificent, gorgeous arched neck, ripply black mane, a rump that would NEVER get wet in the rain, LOL, and MAN could he move, no suspension, but he really, really used himself to the max, he tried so hard, and he could CRANK those knees and hocks. When I longed him I felt like a kite tied to a freight train, LOL, but he actually was light to turn and listened.

He had a ton of energy. I asked why, and the guy told me that the draft people he got him from were EXTREMELY rough and demanded absolute instant obedience. If you said WHOA he froze instantly, if you said get up he flew.

He got the horse from a breeder who said the horse 'wasn't quite hitchy enough for today's show ring'.

[egontoast]

So often it's a matter of education, not stubborness. That's what I was trying to say. My current young guy is an example of that. Fortunately I had already learned from previous horses(oh my, but I think the poor guy who taught me this lesson has forgiven me) that kicking or squeezing until you are blue in the face is WRONG and useless. WRONG!

This new guy was funny . As soon as he realized " OH, OK, I get it now!"
I had the opposite problem.:) yeeHAH. No one would call him lazy now. Actually, no one would describel the horse who taught me this 'lazy 'now either. They aren't all born knowing what we want when we use (to them) arbitrary aids. That's why I cringe when I hear the term ' dumb blood'. I think it's the rider who is dumb if they can't figure it out.

In my limited experience, wbs are very intelligent. A hot horse that wants to rush around from the get go, is not necessarilly mensa material. Both types need to be educated.

[MyReality]

Great point by EqTrainer as well.

[DaisyMae]

I think the subject has been well covered, I just wanted to remind/reiterate to NOT use your seat to send this horse forward - you will be sorry later, when you actually need to use your seat for what it is supposed to be used for - catching energy, not making it, or initiating it. Keep it still :)

I totally agree. This is a very imporant point.

[S&SFarm]

I had a very talented young warmblood who just wouldn't go forward. Thought it was just normal laziness and he would learn to listen to the aides but it was a big problem for over a year. Turned out to be Lymes' disease. It was just a fluke that we found out. So if you have a youngster who just won't go (and yes, even a warmblood should have energy, especially as a youngster) you might want to get a blood panel done. These guys also frequently have low blood iron and need to be supplemented. Sometimes there really is something else involved rather than just laziness. I had a new horse after treatment.

[Emstah]

Hi folks, thanks for your input on this boy! I had a few OK rides with him last week and hopefully things will continue to improve this week :)

[ponygirlnmh]

This thread is so helpful. I am also in the formerTB rider/owner having my first real experience riding a WB. All of these suggestions are so apt. My guy would balk, back, rear, buck anything BUT go forward. Lunging and teaching him the verbal cues really helped. I sent him for training and let an excellent younger rider teach him "yes ma'am".

He's a different horse now that I understand how my riding habits allowed him to continue to tune me out. I am working on not nagging, being direct and precise with my aids, and always riding TO my hand, not from my hand. It's harder than I thought.

I have to agree with the previous posts which suggest that riding a forward horse(or TB) does not teach the correct use of leg and seat. My horse is definitely not dumb, I am convinced he's training me half the time- like he's daying "do it right and you get the reward of me listening". :lol:

[not again]

Are you at University of Delaware? We aren't too far if you want to stop up. We have a bunch of young horses getting going right now and could give you some pointers if you are interested.;)

[JB]

On the subject of sensitivity - I agree that they're all born sensitive. They all feel that teeny little fly land on one hair on their side. They can feel your leg ;)

It IS about education. But behind that is having to learn that the "insensitive" big lug of a WB just has a higher level of tolerance. EVERY horse has a point at which he goes YES M'AM!! That point is far from the same place with my OTTB mare as it is for my WB gelding - worlds apart. If the lazy lug isn't moving off the same aid that sent your TB into the next County, it doesn't mean he doesn't care, it just means he doesn't care about *that*, and you had better find *that* which he DOES care about. Every horse has *that*, it's up to the human to find it and use it as appropriate.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by JB:

If the lazy lug isn't moving off the same aid that sent your TB into the next County....

:lol: