T.B.s as dressage horses [Archive]

ridgeback

Jul. 17, 2008, 01:46 PM

spook1

Jul. 17, 2008, 01:52 PM

Hi
Well as for my goals... I want to be competitive on a ammy level and go as high as I can. I am new to dressage but not to riding. I have been told that T.B.s are really not suitable becuase they are to hot. So I thought I would ask in this forum because I have gotton so much info just from reading the posts here.
Thanks

grayarabpony

Jul. 17, 2008, 01:59 PM

A lot of TBs don't make the best dressage mounts; they really like to run and jump. But it all depends on the individual. You will see a few TBs with a lot of suspension and ability to collect, and can take the discipline of dressage (the constant cueing in dressage can drive some crazy) but they're rare.

I've ridden 2 OTTBs for a long time; one was a little 14.3 horse who was a great little dressage horse and jumper. Great natural passage out in the field, took instruction very well, a wonderful little horse for eventing who also could have done really nice straight dressage. When on his hocks and straight he floated.

The other was a 15.3 mare who was definitely a run and jump kind of horse. She could do a beautiful dressage test when relaxed because she had so much reach and flow and freedom of movement, and she just had 3 good gaits. Her walk and canter were especially nice. However NOT a horse for straight dressage. If you wanted to take her for a gallop first, then pretend the dressage was yoga without looking for results, dressage was fun. Otherwise not. Sweetest horse in the world (with the first OTTB mentioned above a close second) but she was an independent thinker. It's what made her such a good crosscountry horse, aside from her scope.

ridgeback

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:04 PM

Sabovee

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:10 PM

Depends on the TB. You can find a calm TB just as you can find a hot QH. I've had ones come right off the track that you could put your grandma on.

I have an OTTB who is hot who is debuting at PSG at the end of the year (Soundness Gods willing ;) ). Some people can deal with the hotness and channel it appropriately, some can't!

mellsmom

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:15 PM

who don't like to jump.... love dressage and you have to carry a stick to get them forward :-) Mine had three starts and was TOO SLOW. I am flirting on the edge of first level work and he managed to win year end training level schooling show champion in our local dressage association last year with a year end average score around a 67% I think. He was very reasonably priced when I purchased him straight out of a field after an 18 month lay off after coming off the track. Mine has a super temperament and is only slightly fizzy on very rare occasions. When I'm going to have to ride without anyone home, I pick this one over my draft cross every time, even when he was a 4 1/2 year old.

My advice on buying horses for adult ammies is this: buy a horse with an exceptional temperament and the best conformation you can afford and don't get hung up on what breed they are.

Valentina_32926

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:19 PM

My advice on buying horses for adult ammies is this: buy a horse with an exceptional temperament and the best conformation you can afford and don't get hung up on what breed they are.

Correct! I own 2 WBs but there is no reason ANY breed can't do dressage - the key is to select the CORRECT individual. WBs are built more for dressage, but are not always suited to it - just MORE often suited to it!

MyReality

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:23 PM

I actually like answering breed threads because I learned so much working with different breeds and I would like to share from the experience. I love them all, and dressage is all I do. For some reason breed threads always turn into a war. I encourage those who feel the need to "defend"... really go ride different breeds, ride everything Arab, TB, Hano, Trek, etc, and tell me if they are all the same.

So there goes my disclaimer.

I am the proud owner of a TB, who does not have a lot of talent for dressage.

Therefore if you are looking for raw talent, and ease of use in dressage, TB is NOT a typical breed.

But why do I like TB? (besides they are cheap) They are workaholics. They bend over backwards for the rider. They overcome huge difficulties just to do what the rider ask. If asked correctly, they would do anything you ask... because they are sensitive and tune into the rider. Therefore if you don't know what you're doing, that tension and lack of confidence will be transplanted to the horse.

TB's are NOT hot or unpredictable. For every hot TB, there is mismanagement or incorrect training. My TB was on the track till 5... he is dead quiet, SOLID, doesn't spook, doesn't go fast, has a good set of brakes.

TB does have tension, TB does not typically relax or use his back... this I find makes dressage difficult for them due to the lack of throughness. Therefore, as TB riders, you have to work hard on those areas. Slow them down, relax them, ask them to swing their back.

TB, due to conformation and breeding, does not tend to collect easily. But their canter is naturally good. So we work from there.

TB does not usually have brilliance in trot... they tend to travel flat. They don't "jump" at the trot. I find the canter could be worked on. You can get jump, but still you may not get animation AND jump. At higher level, this is a real deal breaker.

I don't know if I forget anything. I'll add later. If you're buying a TB, buy one with a good trot... a trot with some animation in it, with hind legs coming under him (not like a deer though, very important difference). Buy a good shoulder, buy a good neck that comes out nicely... those are the hardest to find in TB.

Holly Jeanne

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:25 PM

I covet a friends TB. He helped her get her bronze and is schooling 4th. He's Mr. Cool and Calm. I was told my OTTB was going to make a nice dressage horse but lost her to EPM so never found out for sure. :cry: She was very laid back but did have an issue with being around a bunch of horses. She had track flash backs.

hitchinmygetalong

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:29 PM

Hi
I have been told that T.B.s are really not suitable becuase they are to hot.

Please don't listen to blanket statements like that. Any horse of any breed needs to be judged on an INDIVIDUAL basis.

There is a good article here (http://www.rerun.org/Spring_2008_newsletter.pdf) on "breaking the OTTB stereotype" - you might want to read it and then talk to people who actually have TB's - not those who have "heard" that they are "too hot".

As for their suitability for dressage - this is a subject that is beat to death around here. Dressage is suitable for ANY horse!

Peggy

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:33 PM

Also agree with Mellsmom. Statistically, WB's are likelier to have the uphill conformation and the disposition desired for dressage. But, TB's can have it too.

I had a TB (http://homepage.smc.edu/kline_peggy/Images/peggy_cool.gif) who didn't want to jump and on whom I got a bronze medal, showed through 4th level, and worked FEI. Then I got a WB/TB cross (http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/photo/photo/show?id=1971868%3APhoto%3A47784&context=user) who really didn't enjoy dressage. Both are (or were, in the case of the TB) uphill, but the TB was built to make collection easier. And, it's a good thing it was relatively easy for him as he didn't have a huge work ethic. He was one of those "lazy" TB's.

The TB (http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/photo/photo/show?id=1971868%3APhoto%3A55675&context=user) that I first evented was a bit too hot for dressage.

So, based on my huge set of three, we have a WB who doesn't want to do dressage, a TB that does, and a TB that doesn't. YMMV. It's all about the individual.

TB's do tend to be easier on the pocket book.

rileyt

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:34 PM

I love them, and I've known quite a few who have been successful even at the upper levels... but you have to get one with good sport horse conformation, and that can be a bit harder to find. Many TBs have stifles that are considerably higher than their elbows... this can make sitting and collection very hard. So, look for one with good balance, and nice big joints.

Avoid the ones that are downhill, or have a low set neck, unduly long back, etc.

I love their work ethic... but it depends on what kind of challenge you like.

PaulaM

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:34 PM

This was my Thoroughbred dressage horse. She has been gone almost 2 years now, but she was the best 1st horse a person could have. She was well trained for dressage, very light and forward and had the most heart a person could ever ask for. Yes, she was reactive and could at times be very spooky. But she was fantastic.

http://www3.telus.net/public/rmeehan/pictures/trophy.jpg

fizzyfuzzybuzzy

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:38 PM

I've just started lessoning (and will probably lease) a LOVELY 10 year old TB gelding. Was an event horse, but lost his nerve with the big jumps. Needs some work, but has the brain, conformation and ability to go far. If I wasn't trying for vet school, he'd be mine!!!

ETA: Please, don't get sucked in by WBs being the end all be all in dressage. My coach was telling me she imported a STUNNING 3 yo, knew mom and dad (both successfull dressage horses), and after being in training for a year, he flipped her the big horsie finger and wouldn't do it. Could have been a world beater, but now trots 20 meter circles with an ammy cause he couldn't/wouldn't take the pressure...just food for thought.

jenm

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:39 PM

I have a TB that I am working on Dressage with. So far we have ridden one Intro test and one of the comments from the judge was: "Capable pair that shows lots of promise". :) She is now developing a nice top line and learning to engage her hindquarters. She also happens to have lovely gaits. She can get hot but I'm patient and in no hurry to climb up the levels. To me, it's all about the journey. I also happen to work with a trainer who doesn't believe Dressage is for Warmbloods only, so that helps!

She also loves to jump, so I have started her over fences as well. I think she would get bored if we only do dressage.

Thomas_1

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:49 PM

Hi
I see there is a simular thread but that seems to be more geared to jumper/hunters. So How are they in dressage? For sure, not so rare as heavy cold blood breeds ;)

Karen Nijvelt rode a t/b at Grand Prix level as did Conrad Schumacher and there's been a lot more than that too.

The great British t/b Java Tiger won Leading British-Bred Sire of Dressage Horses

Too hot? Not necessarily so.

Unpredictable? Again I'd say not the case.

I personally find that t/b's rise to the challenge of having something to think about and do.

And if you want to totally divert the thread ;) we could talk about all the great dressage horses that have been 7/8th t/b or 1/2 t/b or else talk about the fact that the majority of great dressage bloodlines in Warmblood breeding are saturated with Thoroughbred blood

merrygoround

Jul. 17, 2008, 02:51 PM

There are no absolutes in any breed. Particularly not in the TB breed. There are TB that look and act like warm bloods. there are shrimps, there are hulks. In general the warmbloods are selectively bred for the sport horse industry, but some are better at jumping, and others are great in dressage.

Buy a TB, but shop carefully with a knowledgeable companion.

magickmeadow

Jul. 17, 2008, 03:42 PM

I ride a 17.2 hand OTTB. He looks like a warmblood, moves like a warmblood and is naturally very uphill. I have ridden several TB's over the years as well as warmbloods, Arabs, crosses, etc. They were all really great horses each in their own right. My Big Horse (OTTB) has been judged by several BN judges when shown by his previous owner and received high marks in all areas. I really think when looking for a dressage partner, a person needs to assess each horse for what he/she is including rider goals and temperament and not the breed. I can appreciate that certain breeds are bred and suited for certain disciplines but frankly my OTTB is better suited for dressage based on conformation and gaits then some of the warmbloods I have seen. Big Horse has an impulsive trot, lovely canter, and an adequate walk. He is not perfect but neither is any horse. I agree that for the most part TB's are workaholics; they do give it their all. He has great personality, loves all the attention I give him, delights in giving my 8 month old grandson rides, stands quietly while I use a mounting block to get on, and is a perfect gentleman during clipping, farrier, vet and trailering. He is a bit spooky outside and occasionally decides that a good gallop is necessary if another horse comes up along side. He is old and grumpy like me and doesn't tolerate a fool. We get along just great. In the short time I have had him I have learned he would do anything for me. I love TB's but like any breed they aren't right for everyone. If you find a TB that fits you, I highly recommend that you give him a chance. I turned down a warmblood and took Big Horse instead and have not been sorry I did.

Hollywood

Jul. 17, 2008, 04:00 PM

Please don't listen to blanket statements like that. Any horse of any breed needs to be judged on an INDIVIDUAL basis.

There is a good article here (http://www.rerun.org/Spring_2008_newsletter.pdf) on "breaking the OTTB stereotype" - you might want to read it and then talk to people who actually have TB's - not those who have "heard" that they are "too hot".

As for their suitability for dressage - this is a subject that is beat to death around here. Dressage is suitable for ANY horse!

All breeds have the good, the bad, and the ugly - nothing but ignorance makes a generalized statement such as that.

CosMonster

Jul. 17, 2008, 04:11 PM

My TB was successful through 4th level, and probably could have gone higher had an old injury not caught up with him.

There's always Keen, too, a TB who competed in dressage at the Olympics.

I think TBs are more talented than many give them credit for. WBs tend to have a lot of TB blood in them. Sure, your average American racehorse might not be a GP competitor, but what average horse is? There is a huge variety in TBs, and if you're going shopping knowing what you want IMO it's entirely possible to find one that will help you reach your goals.

purplnurpl

Jul. 17, 2008, 04:20 PM

just like any other breed there are good movers, and not so good movers. Good brains, not so good brains. Horses that stay sound, horses that are lame.

You can bet that many many many of the Advanced horses you see out there Eventing would do darn well in the pure dressage dicipline.

Now, the TBs bred these days for racing are often bred to be small downhill bullets. This type will not do well.
But you can find them out there with substantial bone, uphill build, and suspension. You just have to look.

And just as the same with any other breed, the brain is an individual thing. Some of them are hotter then others, but generally they are fine. I agree a bit that the hot unruley types are often made by the rider.

Now it also depends on what your goals are. An average type horse can do very well through 1st. at 2nd is when the movement really starts to come into play. A good mover will score higher every time. That's just the way the game goes. When you start adding collection/mediums and so forth.

I have had two TBs and good dressage with both.
This one has the moves.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/trainingprelim.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/IMG_2315b.jpg

the other one has little to no suspension but I am steady. A steady test at the lower levels will score well.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/andy2.jpg

They are both very quiet in the areana. Though the 2nd guy is your typical very hot headed TB. I have a prozac ass and it all works out fine. You would never know he has hot tendencies.

The TB has that extra will that gives some needed impulsion if you can harness it and use it to your benefit.

Anky likes a lot of TB blood in her horses for that very reason. They try hard.

Thomas_1

Jul. 17, 2008, 06:00 PM

Now, the TBs bred these days for racing are often bred to be small downhill bullets. This type will not do well.
But you can find them out there with substantial bone, uphill build, and suspension. You just have to look. Particularly to the UK and Ireland where they breed them for steeplechasing where sense, bravery, stamina and substance are vital.

camohn

Jul. 17, 2008, 06:29 PM

Hi
I see there is a simular thread but that seems to be more geared to jumper/hunters. So How are they in dressage? Too hot? Unpredictable? I was considering one as I can afford a T.B. were I can't a warmblood. I have a cute Arab but I think I may want something else as a dressage mount.Anyway just looking for some info from those who ride them.
Thank You!
There are some super dressage types....you just have to look under more rocks to find them or buy one specifically bred for dressage. Are they harder to find than hunter type TBs? Yes. Are they out there? Yes.
This is our sadly deceased TB stallion at about 40 days under saddle:
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomertrotOct05-1.jpg

camohn

Jul. 17, 2008, 06:33 PM

There are some super dressage types....you just have to look under more rocks to find them or buy one specifically bred for dressage. Are they harder to find than hunter type TBs? Yes. Are they out there? Yes.
This is our sadly deceased TB stallion at about 40 days under saddle:
http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j276/camohn03/?action=view&current=BoomertrotOct05-1.jpg

FWIW this horse was a stallion, folks that didn't know him thought he was a gelding that didn't look at the undercarriage and was basically child safe.

There are hot TBs but our guy was very laid back. I have also met plenty of WBs that are more hot or reactive than any TB I have ridden. It depends a lot on a particualr bloodline.

ThoroughbredFancy

Jul. 17, 2008, 06:53 PM

If only my TB was hot.

Then at least he'd have some energy. :lol:

nhwr

Jul. 17, 2008, 07:14 PM

I have had 2 TB that were successful, actually very successful, at FEI. One of them Sandy Pflueger wanted to take to Germany to compete in the late 80s. Prince Thatch, a (now deceased) Hannoverian improvement sire is the father of many successful dressage horses. There is no reason why a TB can't be quite successful in dressage.

spook1

Jul. 17, 2008, 07:20 PM

WOW..Thanks for all the replies!! I should have mentioned that I rode raceshorses for 12 years then decided to go back to school and thought ..if I never ride another T.B. it would be to soon..!! lol... After that I did endurance for 2 years with good sucess but a medical issue came up (with me) and I needed to stop that. I have wanted to do dressage since the early 90s but was never in a position to do it. And now I am able to take lessons and spoil a horse the way I've alway wanted to... ya know the show horse way...lol :) I would love to get a warmblood but at this time I can't really afford one and the T.B.s are pretty cheap plus I still have friends who still race and they can help find one that is sound. But for now my little Arab will do...he's so cute but small. Again thanks for all the replies!!!
:)

Lgd1

Jul. 18, 2008, 05:05 AM

Mine is a sport-bred horse from national hunt (jump-race bloodlines). Bought to event, preferred dressage and got to Inter I competitively and does all the GP work. All with a full-time working amateur Mum and a steep learning curve for both of us.

She is not a hot horse - sensitive better describes her, but she is a complete dope on a rope to handle from the ground and gives 110% for you when you ride.

UK NH bloodlines tend to be stockier than your standard OTTB. Her sire won as an in-hand Show Hunter.

Most folk take her for a small WB.

Taken a few years back, she was competing Advanced (4th)/PSG at the time.

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1500

Even baggy and unfit she is fairly substantial, this is with her 3 day old filly (and yes, she ran Belle over a few seconds later :lol: )

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=16457

Kaeleer

Jul. 18, 2008, 05:21 AM

Hi,

I'm not sure where you are, and what the TBs are like in your area, but out here (SA), they are still the most common breed seen in the jumping and dressage rings, although the modern sports horse (warmblood and warmblood crosses) are starting to take over. A WB will generally get you higher up the grades, but I know of some TBs who have competed at PSG level.

Our local TBs tend to be bigger than those I've seen overseas. You also need to distinguish between a sprinter and a distance TB - the latter tend to be a bit bigger and often come with some cadence. Fort Wood throws cadence into his babies and they look quite Warmbloody.

I have one WB and four TBs (one on lease) and I can honestly say that, barring one, my TBs are honest, gentle, and pleasant horses to ride. They try their guts out and they are not at all unpredictable.

One of my TBs is competing right now at upper Novice level and he is schooled to Elementary as he has to do Elementary moves in his eventing dressage tests. He regularly scores 8s for his movements on his tests, and despite forty starts on the track, he has a snaffle mouth.

I wouldn't discount a TB based on its breed. I WOULD discount it if it had soundness problems, or temperament issues, poor conformation or inadequate movement. But then, I would discount ANY horse with those problems.

springer

Jul. 18, 2008, 09:32 AM

Lets not forget KEEN

My now deceased TB gelding (Springer) was also a wonderful dressage type. Too bad we didn't find that out til he was about 14 yrs old! He hated to jump, had a very uphill build, and LOVED lateral work. I think it must really depend on the individual horse

Ajierene

Jul. 18, 2008, 10:03 AM

Thoroughbreds are not as typical in dressage and not built as well for it as warmbloods - who were built for dressage, but finding a thoroughbred to move fairly far up in dressage is easier than some other breeds. As Thomas said - a lot of thoroughbred bloodlines in those warmbloods.

I own a 15.2HH thoroughbred that could do maybe up to second level competitively. She is a bit hot, but as my trainer says - capture that energy and once you have it captured, it translates to really nice gaits. Her gaits are not naturally as floating as a warmblood and it takes more work to get her to similar gaits, but once you have them - the reward is worth all the work!

They are much more plentiful and cost effective than warmbloods. If you know enough or take someone who knows enough, you could find a really nice dressage prospect from CANTER. Don't be afraid of something off the track - often they have better heads on their shoulders just from being constantly trailered and taken to places with a lot of noise, pomp and circumstance. Some have lost a few marbles, but many have not.

EqTrainer

Jul. 18, 2008, 10:21 AM

I personally think that dollar to dollar, you can get a much, MUCH nicer TB than a WB. For example, $20k buys a fantastic TB, and a not so fantastic WB :lol:

All horses will present you with challenges. If you want to stereotype, TB's will present you with challenges that involve going fast. WB's will present you will challenges that involve not moving at all. Of course there are a million grey areas in between but that is what is "typical".

We have had some truly superlative TB's... I just sold one to FlashGordon who posts here, and he is one of the most laid back, easy going, confident horses I have ever known. He was a successful racehorse, too. So if you ask him to gallop, you'd better be ready :winkgrin: but you'd never know it at ANY other time. Built wayyyyy uphill, fantastic neck, great rear end, truly perfect conformation for a sport horse. And that TB work ethic. Here is a pic of him, he is standing up a hill but it's still obvious he's all that! My working student who has one who is so uphill I think it's to his detriment sometimes, he can fake it nicely :lol: he also has a fantastic brain. Very quiet and willing. My three year old will be big and uphill, great mind. We sold a nice TB to a local woman, same kind of horse, I think he is doing third level now? I always see his name in the show results. And he was 9 years old and fresh off the track, very laid back but high energy at the same time. Sometimes the good racehorses are the best ones, they have learned to conserve their energy and are really confident.

I personally prefer a horse I have to teach to balance and relax rather than one I have to push to go. In fact, I really just don't want a horse I have to push, I would prefer to spend my time doing other things while on their backs :) So I gravitate towards the hotter breeds - but don't make the mistake of thinking hot means stupid or crazy... it doesn't have to.

Bronte

Jul. 18, 2008, 10:40 AM

My now retired TB did YR and was very able at PSG. Oh, did I tell you I love him very much ~ seriously everyone does ~ there is something very noble about him. He is built up hill, sporthorse type TB, breed to be a sporthorse, not a race horse. He never got less than 7 on gaits, sometimes 8. (Although he was hell on wheels to sit...). He did not tolerate fools gladly, and he lots of gas, but I would not call him hot, just sensitive.

The YR coach (German gentleman), loved him and referred to him as "that elegant, noble horse."

He was a wonderful, wonderful horse and I never felt disadvantaged by WB's. Just be sure you find one built for sport (uphill) and not for flat racing (downhill).

I now ride a very talented Trakehner (Biotop/Caprimond), big boy really built (not the light TB type Trak). Really different. Probably easier for him. But honestly I could not tell you which I enjoy riding the most. They are both great, just different.

Good luck with your search ~ there is nothing like a good TB!