Spin Off: Percherons vs Lipizzaners

[Roan]

Posted in the old closed thread, this post:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=3365494&postcount=559

http://www.srs.at/
I consider these horses to have fairly heavy builds do you all? Dare I say, maybe even a little drafty? They have heavy bone, large feet and yet, no one questions whether they are suitable. They don't seem to suffer from blown hocks at an abnormal rate. In fact, aren't they known for going and going and going, well into old age?

Now, look at these horses:
http://www.pennwoodspercherons.com/
Other than being much taller, so proportionally they have larger everything, do they really look that different from the horses in the srs site above in terms of bone, body ratios, hock structure, etc?

When I take the labels off and view the two breeds of horses above and superimpose the images in my mind, I don't "see" dissimilar breeds. In fact, breed "one" is considered one the foundation animals of breed "two" (way back when).. . .

Lipizzaners in the Percheron bloodline? Please cite a reference for that. Lipizzaners are descended from Spanish, Barb, Berber and Karst horses. I don't see any of that in the Percheron history files I've read.

You cannot compare a Lipizzaner with a draft horse. The SRS has spent over 450 years of selective breeding and produced a very strong, small horse that can easily do extreme collection and Airs Above the Ground.

I suggest you read the following:

http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/Conformation-Dressage.pdf

And note the points made about the Lipizzaner's build and must of the same would hold true for any Baroque breed of horse.

Yes, Lipizzaners have big feet and have big bones, they are also *extremely* strong and flexible. If they weren't they wouldn't be able to get off the ground.

If you have to correlate Lipizzaner to another equine, then think of them as big, white ponies -- that's how most Lip owners refer to their horses.

Eileen, Owner of a Big, White Pony

[mp]

I have no axe to grind re: either breed. But the Lipizzans don't look "drafty" to me, especially the hindquarters and neck set in relation to the shoulder. The Lip conformation in these two areas makes it easier for them to achieve self-carriage and collection.

And it is the conformation of many draft horses (not 99.9%, but let's just say well over half, to be generous) in these areas that makes these things hard for them.

[Ambrey]

A lot of Percherons don't look that drafty to me (not over 50%, but a lot :)), especially in their movement. It would be interesting to do the analysis from the site STF posted on the dead thread and see how the lipps and percherons differ. I suspect the bone structure in the rear would be quite different.

I do love lippizaners. If I *had* to get a non-draft breed, it would definitely be a baroque.

[grayarabpony]

Lipizzaners don't look drafty AT ALL -- they are built completely differently from a draft. OP we are in complete agreement on this.

[horselips]

Lipizzaners don't look drafty AT ALL -- they are built completely differently from a draft.
Absolutely!

Anyone who thinks a Percheron has similar conformation to a Lipizzan obviously has no clue on what to look for in conformation. The length of the croup is much longer, as is the forearm (whereas the cannon is shorter in relation)

I guess a Friesian looks to you like a black Percheron, then, - because of the profuse mane and feathered feet

[Shiaway]

My little guy is a lusitano but he actually looks more like a lipizan. They don't look anything like draft horses to me. As others have said, they may have a solid frame and nice muscling but they're built a lot differently.

[CatOnLap]

and that is why the original post was ignored.

A Lipp does the job of team driving or light carriage driving very well. It could pull a small plow, but is not built for it.
A lipp does a super job of the haute ecole, being small, compact, short backed and muscular for carrying the rider.

A perch can pull a plow or heavy wagon solo and is prodigious in teams, being large, stable and heavy in front and able to put its hind end into a pushing ( not carrying) mode easily.
It can do dressage but is not built for it.

I love my perch cross. And without her colours, she might be mistaken for a lipp, round and compact and nicely muscled behind, but sadly without the talent for dressage.

[Roan]

I wouldn't have bothered with this at all if it hadn't been posted by Jill, who signs everything "Jill at Cielo Azure Percherons". This makes the person sound extremely knowledgeable about Perch horses and I most certainly didn't want something taking those comments at face value :D

Heh, she should try riding one and then she would FEEL the difference between a Lipizzaner and a draft horse. They are BOINGITY -- you go UP when they trot, really UP. It's like riding a pogo stick. If you can do a real (as in not just for a couple of stridges) sitting trot on a Lip and not show a lot of air time, yer good :D

Eileen

[quietann]

There's an adorable Lip. mare where I board. I can't see anyone confusing her with a Percheron; she really is built like a pony, maybe similar to a Welsh Cob in some ways. The biggest difference between her and a "typical" Perch is in the hind-end; her croup is relatively flat and she has some serious junk in her trunk... definitely built for pushing, not pulling :lol: Her legs are also relatively shorter.

[Roan]

Oh, thanks, quietann, I forgot about the legs. Yes, classical type of Lipizzaners do have short legs in relation to their height. The taller carriage type tend to have longer legs that are more in proportion. Still short, but not like the classical Lips.

Flat croup -- fergot that, too! When they are head down, grazing, they are the classic table top horse. FoTD would love'em :D

Eileen

[Shiaway]

Do they still use mostly the lip. mares for the carriage driving?

[NoDQhere]

There really are no similarities between the conformation of the Lippizan and the conformation of the Percheron. Or any Heavy Draft for that matter. In fact IMO, I don't think you could find any two more dissimilar breeds!

[Cielo Azure]

"Lipizzaners in the Percheron bloodline? Please cite a reference for that. Lipizzaners are descended from Spanish, Barb, Berber and Karst horses. I don't see any of that in the Percheron history files I've read."

No there are no direct Lipizzarers that I am aware of but what I meant to say is that similar ancestors exist in both breeds. Unfortunately, the thread was closed before I had a chance to edit.

Files? What files do you read? I like to read MC Weld (1886), Walters (1860 something), HuDays (1886), Dillion (1890s) and all have excellent books. I like some of the Sanders book of 1917 (the 500 page book) but he obscures and glosses over all sorts of details about the Perch evolution and makes it sound like no outside breedings occurred in the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. Most people cite him and I don't think that is right because if you go back to the older books, he contradicts alot of what was written earlier.

You will find all sorts of references to all sorts of breedings that have occurred in these books. An example:

History of the Percheron Horse 1886, by Charles Du Hays
Modifications of the Percheron Race (pages 52-3)
"Indeed, we see, towards 1760 under the administration of of the Marque of Briggs, manager of the stud-stables of Pin, all the large number of fine Arabian, BARB, and eastern stallions, that this establishment owned, were put at the disposition of the Count of Mallart for the use at his mare-stables of Coesme, bear Bellesme. The arrival of Dutch and English stallions at the stud-stables of Pin put an unfortunate end to the influence of the Arab horse in Perche, and it will now be many a long year before the eastern blood will be seen as before. It is only towards 1820, stall at the same chateau of Coesme, with the grandsons of those old admirers of the Arablians, that we find again two Arab horses from the stud-stables of Oin, Godophin and Gallipoli (a Turkish horse).

The other books listed above show other outside influences. So, go figure. In my opinion. there are common ansectors between the breeds.

It is interesting how so few people who have actually been to an A rated Percheron show or shown Percherons or breed show Percherons, and yet care so much about this breed and what they can and can't do and how their hocks will hold up under work. That that was actually my mainpoint is that baroque horses can hold up to the challenges of dressage work and that Percherons have a lot of commonalities. I stand by that.

And of course, you all know that despite being a closed registry for at least 105 years (more like 130 years), Percherons in the USA have no breed standard. Why not? Because there are so many different types of Percherons and they are used for so many different purposes, that the PHAOA feels that they are unable to make a breed standard that would fit all of the different types. So, I am glad that you all know so much better than the association as to what a Percheron is or isn't, in terms of conformation and what they can do. I for one, would love a breed standard but we don't have one. Of course, the fact that the French modified the breed greatly in France by writing their breed standard after WW11 to include the breed as a food animal complicates things.

Finally, part of the other reason I posted that post (and it was meant to make people think and to be a little controversial) was that so many of you just need to pick on draft horse people again and again, to the point where moderators have to step in (often in the same thread) again and again. Calling people ignorant, dissing their career choices, their horses, their spelling, the knowledge base, their photos of themselves and their horses (when they didn't ask for a critque), it all gets really old. Do you all want to go back to high school that badly? I was trying to take some of the heat off of people who were getting picked on (again and again) by trying to steer the topic onto something more grounded in dialoque rather than high school. It looks as though I failed as the same people are back to attack. What a surprise.

Funny coinsidence: those of us who own Percherons also often refer to them as big, white (or black) ponies.

[Roan]

Sorry, but I find this whole thing way out in left field. You obviously know as much about Lipizzaners as I know about Percherons -- which is nada. What I got on Percherons I Googled and that's the extent of any research I'd do on something like that.

The only correlation I got was the introduction of Spanish horses. Whoopee doo. There aren't too many breeds that DON'T have Spanish blood in them. As for having some Lipizzaner somewhere in the blood, even if it did happen, I hardly think that it would unduly influence an entire breed in that fashion.

Crossing a Lipizzaner to a draught is a pointless exercise. You'd probably cause a black hole or so mething 'cause they'd cancel each other out :D Too bad we can't ask the ODGs, 'cause if it could be done, they probably tried it. They had over 450 years to get it right.

Anyhow, Jill, no one is attacking anyone. You made a post that was patently incorrect, I simply wanted to correct it in case people reading that thread got the wrong idea. Same thing you would do if I posted that Percherons were the same in build as a donkey. Not that they are -- just an extreme example as a point.

As for the hocks, this thread isn't about that nor is it about whether Perches can do dressage. It's about whether or not Percherons have the same build as Lipizzaners.

In summary, no, they don't.

Eileen

[mishmash]

Heh, she should try riding one and then she would FEEL the difference between a Lipizzaner and a draft horse. They are BOINGITY -- you go UP when they trot, really UP. It's like riding a pogo stick. If you can do a real (as in not just for a couple of stridges) sitting trot on a Lip and not show a lot of air time, yer good :D

Eileen


My full Perch is also boingity. As I believe was Cottonwood Flame.:D

[mp]

Finally, part of the other reason I posted that post (and it was meant to make people think and to be a little controversial) was that so many of you just need to pick on draft horse people again and again, to the point where moderators have to step in (often in the same thread) again and again. Calling people ignorant, dissing their career choices, their horses, their spelling, the knowledge base, their photos of themselves and their horses (when they didn't ask for a critque), it all gets really old. Do you all want to go back to high school that badly? I was trying to take some of the heat off of people who were getting picked on (again and again) by trying to steer the topic onto something more grounded in dialoque rather than high school. It looks as though I failed as the same people are back to attack. What a surprise.

Funny coinsidence: those of us who own Percherons also often refer to them as big, white (or black) ponies.
What a puzzling post ... this one and the original.

The other thread got a little weird, but I didn't notice any attacks here. And I don't need to read volumes from the 19th century or go to a Percheron show to say that Lipizzans are built differently than Percherons. And it's not just the size.

Sometimes I call my little Arab squirt Big Red. But that doesn't mean he resembles Secretariat.

[slc2]

I would say that there is very little similarity between the movement or the conformation of a Lipizanner and a Percheron.

I can't understand how the original poster called them 'drafty' based on the size of their feet and bone, which are much slighter than a draft horse. He might have been comparing them to certain show horses that are trimmed to have tiny little feet. If that's all he's ever seen the feet on the Lipizanner might look 'big' or 'drafty' to him.

"Boinginess" can come from many different sources. A horse can feel 'boingy' because it is stiff and doesn't use its hind legs properly, or because it is doing a slow patting-the-ground type jog trot. A horse can feel boingy because he is straight, supple, and using his hind legs properly too, or because he has suspension in his gaits and lots of natural power.

A Percheron's, as well as all heavy draft breeds, has conformation, especially hind quarters built for pulling. Their hocks and pelvis have different angles than riding horses in general. Their shoulders are also different, straighter up and down, and the connection to the hind quarters through the loin is very different.

Their gaits are different from riding horses.

The trot, especially, is flat, in the sense that the body is not lifted off the ground. Whether the knees are lifted up or not, the body stays more level than with a sport riding horse type. Lifting a heavier body up off the ground, with true 'suspension' would be a problem for a heavier horse, and a waste of energy for draft.

The Lipizanners, on the other hand, have so much suspension and carrying ability and pure 'oomph' (when trained properly) that Charles Harris in his SRS diary, says the SRS students used to compare eachother's legs after a ride and see whose legs are the most blistered and bloody.

There is variation among Percherons as well as most other draft breeds, with a showier type and a more utilitarian type. They are usually a little taller, leggier, lighter look and higher stepping than the less hitchy type. There is a very stocky, heavy, short legged draft horse type.

It's a misconception that high school horses all 'need' to be as small as Lipizanners. The Selle Francaise horses used for the school jumps at Saumur are quite a bit larger, also strongly built, but again, not 'drafty'.

This is the best way to compare the two.

The 'pulling' hindquarter in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n2jbEsN5Pw&feature=related

Percheron:

suspension not present in gaits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBhSlz0XNdw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfa_w9Ny-Hk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJLUIeHsEts&feature=related

a non-show Percheron showing the steeper, shorter 'pulling' hind quarter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WTmoHF5kwM&feature=related

Lipizanner:

Probably the cutest video ever made of the Spanish Riding School lipizanners:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLD3-lOh2xc

A comparison of high school horses from the 'big 4' schools in the world:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RzdwAhwgBI&feature=related

[Roan]

My full Perch is also boingity. As I believe was Cottonwood Flame.:D

Boingity
Function: verb, adjective
Etymology: word coined by Judith Tarr, author, to describe the trotting action and movement suspension of Lipizzaner horses.

Best seen rather than described. See video of Lipizzaner at liberty, below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgI66FjZ_x8

Although in slow mo, note the moment of suspension in the trot. It's common in all Lipizzaners, in varying degrees. Note also, the canter pirouettes, flying changes, and total balance when the horse comes to a full stop. Also note the bone structure of the hip area as the horse moves.


Gimme some Perch vids to watch so I can compare.

Eileen

[Roan]

Do they still use mostly the lip. mares for the carriage driving?

Depends on if you are referring to Piber Stud or in general. The stud *used* to break the mares for driving only, but now they are all backed as well. Backing makes for a better sale if they decide to not breed that particular mare.

The horses usually used for driving -- male or female -- are "carriage" type Lipizzaners. They are taller than the norm (15.2hh is the max) and have longer legs, and those are not acceptable in the SRS breeding program. You'd see them over here as a Lipizzaner "Sporthorse".

Dunno if that answered your question?

Eileen

PS
If I get anything wrong I know TouchstoneAcres will correct me :D

[Roan]

Further to what slc2 posted, here's a video of the Four Schools of Classical Horsemanship (Royal Andalusia School, Portuguese School, Cadre Noir de Saumur, and Spanish Riding School) when they met Paris last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoPG5KZTay4&feature=related

Eileen

[Roan]

. . .
Percheron:

suspension not present in gaits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBhSlz0XNdw&feature=related


Is that typical of a Perch under saddle? There's a huge difference between how a Lip moves and what that guy is doing.

Eileen

[slc2]

1. Yes.

2. yes there is.

Any time you say a horse is 'typical' of his breed, though, you're going to get an argument. 'MY horse has tons of suspension!' etc.

prepare, prepare, prepare, :)

It helps to define 'suspension'. It's not how high the kness and hocks are lifted, but how long all 4 feet are completely clear of the ground. That goes along with a lot of 'lift' of the body (a horse can raise his knees and hocks very high and not lift the body or have any suspension at all)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ef1Udc3WTQ at :32, a horse trots under saddle along a wall so you have a horizontal line to compare to.

- the entire body bounces up in the air all as a 'unit', not just the neck or butt pops up in the air, not just tbe back drops, the body doesn't see saw, it just rises.

Bounciness can come from that lift and suspension, or from incorrect working of the back and hind quarter.

'All boing is not created equal'

-- Saint Ruprecht, the patron saint of suspension

[canticle]

While I wouldn't say Percherons are similar to Lipps, the videos do show that there is nothing wrong with them as riding horses. There is no reason why they could not do dressage. Just the ignorance and fear of BB posters...

[MyReality]

If you have ridden both, or seen both, you would know they are different horses for entirely different functions. I love Lipizzaner... really a load of fun to ride... the one I rode wasn't that trained and can already do lots... can't imagine riding a very trained one, probably not good enough to ride him at all. :-)

[slc2]

"ignorant fears of bb"

Yes, that's it. We're TERRIFIED of riding draft horses. They PETRIFY us. If someone even SPELLS The word, 'percheron', I run and hide under my bed, screaming like a psychotic pixie. There are actually twelve step programs for people who are afraid of riding draft horses. They start out, 'Hi, My name is Mary, and I'm a Draftaphobic'.

"not good enough to ride them at all"

why not? They are not MAGIKAL, just a horse. A very, very FUN HORSE, but still a horse.

Most people seem to get used to the gaits very quickly. They're not that different from a warmblood's gaits( uh oh, i feel the rath of God descending....).

Some really nice riding of a lipizanner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtd64iAXGu8

Ok...so don't watch that one....oh my god that was funny...NO, don't watch it, LOL!!!!

how about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT3vEDzqmog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT3vEDzqmog

oh shit, don't watch that one either.

how about this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsmVTm36M8o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgvY91gd7go&feature=related

[Roan]

. . .why not? They are not MAGIKAL, just a horse. A very, very FUN HORSE, but still a horse.

Most people seem to get used to the gaits very quickly. They're not that different from a warmblood's gaits( uh oh, i feel the rath of God descending....).I am GOD and you have BLASPHEMED!

Okay, so someone will complain to the mods about that one ;)

Some really nice riding of a lipizanner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtd64iAXGu8

Ok...so don't watch that one....oh my god that was funny...NO, don't watch it, LOL!!!!Oh. my. gosh. ROFL! She's lucky she didn't hit the dirt.

Boingity -- here's a friend of mine's Lip (Smokey) being ridden in Intermediare Freestyle I 18 years ago. Rider is Jennifer Roth. Watch her thighs -- I dunno if I could sit to that guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txe972g2Pz0

Smokey (Maestoso Sabrina II) passed away last year from EPM complications. He was 31½ years old.

Eileen

[MyReality]

SLC, if you could please put your sarcasm away for one second, and please explain what you're trying to say. I am not getting it.
However, nice collection of videos! It was fun watching!

[Ambrey]

Is that typical of a Perch under saddle? There's a huge difference between how a Lip moves and what that guy is doing.

Eileen

There isn't really any "typical." That's the problem. Peanut (that's Phyxius' horse) is typical of Percherons of his build, but many Percherons are built to be much more quick and flashy. I think they'd have more suspension (still not like a Baroque, though).

Most of the horses SLC posted are of pretty heavy build.

For example, this guy is young, but you can see the difference- he's not going to grow up to be a plodder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR2p4WZw4OA&feature=related

This one isn't that suspended, but see how he has the kind of spanish, paddling trot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SbnifTCtas

As for crossing lipps and percherons, Spanish Normans (Andy x perch) are gorgeous :) Maybe it would work!

And I found this video, and I love this horse so thought I'd link the video just for fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkRDOyUdmrA

[Roan]

*scratches head*

Okay, so I looked at your vids and I looked at slc's and I looked at a few others I found as well. I even went and looked at some WB vids as well . . .

I'm *not* knocking drafts, but everything I saw, even that Fries x Perch, showed me horses that "rolled" along the ground. Rolled. . . gotta be a better word. . . most likely I'm just so used to seeing higher leg action, front and back, and hind legs reaching forward naturally, that I don't see any of that in those draft and draft x videos.

Sorta like if someone only watched how Big Lick horses moved and then went to a QH show.

Anyhow, back to the topic of whether Percherons are built like Lipizzaners -- all those videos scream NO WAY.

What I wish I had was a good video of my girl, sans me. She's not even a "prime" Lipizzaner example, but she has the boingities. I'll see if I can get some longeing vid this weekend.

Do you have any video of Smoky, Ambrey? I like him and from the pictures I saw he looks like he doesn't drag his feet. I'd love to see how he moves.

Eileen

[Cielo Azure]

Is that typical of a Perch under saddle? There's a huge difference between how a Lip moves and what that guy is doing.

Eileen

He is a more draft style Percheron, than a show Percheron. For showing at rated shows, most people prefer a more show style Percheron. If the class has a light horse judge, a horse like this will do fine as he is well trained and they will judge on performance. However, if it is a Percheron judge, they want to see breed type as well (as in show style Percheron) and this guy doesn't have it.

Another friend owns this horse (below), who is quite green but her trainer fimed this at her first (very little local) show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVWjK79YvrE

Still, I wouldn''t call her horse that typical either of what you see at a big show but he is more representative of what you might see.

[Thomas_1]

:eek::eek::eek:

Who the heck thought that a Lipizzaner was anything like a Percheron!?? They really should have got their guide dog to explain it better!

Lipizzaners have always also been a light harness coaching horse. So used for elegant pleasure driving.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/private%20driving%20classes/DSCF0070.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/private%20driving%20classes/DSCF0064-1.jpg

And the Lipizzaners used for coaching are NOT a different type to those used for anything else.

[Roan]

Ah, thanks, Jill!

That's much better -- no foot dragging. . . gonna watch that video a few times.

Eileen

[ironbessflint]

Not that I'd call this perch typical, but I thought it'd add something to the discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES5QymopDEQ

(He's schooling GP now, will be showing I2)

[slc2]

"SLC, if you could please put your sarcasm away for one second, and please explain what you're trying to say. I am not getting it."

definition of sarcasm: if i do it, it's sarcasm. if you do it, it's humor. ;)

I summed up my POV, MyReality, it is that I think percherons and lipizanners are not similar by gaits or conformation.

"Pushing Dirt Uphill", LOL.

Cielo Azure (Jill) - that is a GORGEOUS horse.

the same thing is still true of the suspension in the gaits, lateral walk, hitchy horse or the heavier type. Same angles on the hind quarter, it's still a 'pulling' hind quarter and back.

Check out this little dainty thing. This is 100% my favorite video so far of any posted of draft horses being ridden - WOW!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDnO46V9aPw&feature=related

NICE music by the way. Pappa Taj is the king. :)

[Roan]

:eek::eek::eek:

Who the heck thought that a Lipizzaner was anything like a Percheron!?? They really should have got their guide dog to explain it better!

Lipizzaners have always also been a light harness coaching horse.

And the Lipizzaners used for coaching are NOT a different type to those used for anything else.Ah, Thomas? I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. They were bred for the Hapsburg Monarchy -- two lines -- one for the riding school and one for pulling the coaches.

". . The Kladrub stud produced heavy carriage horses. Riding horses and light carriage horses came from the Lipizza stud although breeding stock was exchanged between the studs.. . "

Excerpt from the History on the LANA web site:

http://www.lipizzan.org/aboutlipizzans.html

My mare, specifically, is more of the carriage type. She's 15.3 hh, taller, and rangier. 'Course that's what they call "sporthorse" type Lips in North America.

Eileen

[mishmash]

[QUOTE=slc2;3368820]I would say that there is very little similarity between the movement or the conformation of a Lipizanner and a Percheron.

"Boinginess" can come from many different sources. A horse can feel 'boingy' because it is stiff and doesn't use its hind legs properly, or because it is doing a slow patting-the-ground type jog trot. A horse can feel boingy because he is straight, supple, and using his hind legs properly too, or because he has suspension in his gaits and lots of natural power.

A Percheron's, as well as all heavy draft breeds, has conformation, especially hind quarters built for pulling. Their hocks and pelvis have different angles than riding horses in general. Their shoulders are also different, straighter up and down, and the connection to the hind quarters through the loin is very different.

Their gaits are different from riding horses.

The trot, especially, is flat, in the sense that the body is not lifted off the ground. Whether the knees are lifted up or not, the body stays more level than with a sport riding horse type. Lifting a heavier body up off the ground, with true 'suspension' would be a problem for a heavier horse, and a waste of energy for draft. ]

Thats it- I am getting video taken and posted next week! SLC, you are full of it. I bet you cant sit my Perch's trot-and not because he is stiff, either. :lol: I believe "elastic horse!" was the term used on his last tests at a recognized show 68% at T4. Is he typical-maybe not. But bet there are more dressagy Perchies out there than people think! Link to pix (again...)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28520136@N02/?saved=1

[slc2]

Roan, actually the same mares that the school horses were bred from, were broke to harness, and could be seen in the past trotting about in harness at Piber (i think even the mares are now broke to ride). I once long ago met a driver from Europe (can't recall which country, Hungary, maybe?) who had a team of Lipizanner mares he drove competitively. They were not Kladruby.

Kladrub horses I've also seen. They are larger, taller, and heavier. Elegant as well, but BIG.

Thanks for the insults, LOL. Of course, your horse is absolutely gorgeous, and looks beautifully trained and turned out, and you ride him beautifully - really excellent posture and position. Gorgeous. the horse fairly gleams.

I am sure you are very, very good at sitting your horse's trot. Far, far, far better than I could ever, ever be.

And I'm sure he's elastic, if the judge says so (cant really tell from a photo, since elasticity is a motion thing..except for...see below...).

The most noticeable thing about your horse is the reach forward of the hind leg. That is really, really exceptional.

But elasticity and suspension are two different things.

Elasticity can refer to the ability to lengthen the outline, and stretch down, and then go back into a working posture, to the ability to lengthen the stride in a lengthening, and show a real difference, even to the ability to bend and be supple.

Suspension refers to how long all 4 feet are off the ground in the trot and canter. the pictures you posted don't show suspension. The horse has 1-2 feet bearing weight in the pictures of the trot.

A horse can be very useful, very well trained, have tons of great qualities, be a very successful dressasge horse, and still not have a great deal of suspension in the trot and canter.

This is not about your horsey is not any good. This is just discussing points of conformation and gaits. You have a beautiful horse.

[Ambrey]

Awesome, IBF! Is he purebred? I hunt and hunt for videos and can never find any- I haven't been able to find a single video of a purebred perch who moves as nicely as Lewin's horse :(

Eileen, Smokey can certainly drag if he is allowed to. It's why the Percherons who succeed all have very skilled riding.

(I looked, and Murial DuBois is Perch x Appy, according to her rider's website, a CW Flame daughter)

[Thomas_1]

Ah, Thomas? I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. They were bred for the Hapsburg Monarchy -- two lines -- one for the riding school and one for pulling the coaches. I think you maybe haven't properly understood that even the summary history on the site you posted clearly tells you that was nearly 300 years ago and even then the studs were swapping breeding stock! There hasn't been separate lines for centuries.

". . The Kladrub stud produced heavy carriage horses. Riding horses and light carriage horses came from the Lipizza stud although breeding stock was exchanged between the studs.. . "

[mishmash]

I am sure you are very, very good at sitting your horse's trot. Far, far, far better than I could ever, ever be.

Nope, SLC, cant sit it at all-trust me, he HAS suspension!
And I'm sure he's elastic, if the judge says so (cant really tell from a photo, since elasticity is a motion thing).

But elasticity and suspension are two different things.

Elasticity can refer to the ability to lengthen the outline, and stretch down, and then go back into a working posture, to the ability to lengthen the stride in a lengthening, and show a real difference, even to the ability to bend and be supple.

Suspension refers to how long all 4 feet are off the ground in the trot and canter. the pictures you posted don't show suspension. The horse has 1-2 feet bearing weight in the pictures of the trot.

A horse can be very useful, very well trained, have tons of great qualities, be a very successful dressasge horse, and still not have a great deal of suspension in the trot and canter.[/QUOTE]

Will try to get video next week!

[Ambrey]

BTW, mishmash, love your horse :)

[Romany]

Would somebody please explain why it's still acceptable to dock Percherons? Most of those videos of Percherons, the horses have stumpy little docks, and the tail has been cut short.

I see no docked Lipizzaners ;) Maybe it's a culture thing.

[Roan]

. . .
I see no docked Lipizzaners ;) Maybe it's a culture thing.ROFL! OMG, I almost got shot in the head for even HINTING that I wanted to pull my girl's mane! The only thing you can get away with is banging the tail. Anything else is death, unless you are showing upper levels, of course. Then you can pull without threat of bodily harm.

Eileen

[Ambrey]

Although if you train at a H/J barn, they want to pull everything's mane :) I practically had to keep my welshx's mane under lock and key!

[Thomas_1]

Would somebody please explain why it's still acceptable to dock Percherons? Most of those videos of Percherons, the horses have stumpy little docks, and the tail has been cut short.

I see no docked Lipizzaners ;) Maybe it's a culture thing.

In much of Europe its actually illegal to dock any horse's tail. Its been that way in the UK for over a century now.

Heavy cold blood agricultural breeds had their tails docked in the old days to stop them getting fouled up in the agricultural machinery that they towed.

Nowadays in the UK and other countries where docking is in contravention with animal welfare legislation, the tails are plaited up and pulled to keep them out of the way and to look as though they're docked.

A lipizzaner isn't an agricultural heavy draft horse breed, its a light harness or coaching horse breed and hence never was docked..... no reason for it!

[Roan]

I think you maybe haven't properly understood that even the summary history on the site you posted clearly tells you that was nearly 300 years ago and even then the studs were swapping breeding stock! There hasn't been separate lines for centuries.The stock they were swapping were riding for carriage horse types.

Seriously, Thomas, I'm a member of a couple of Lip groups and we've had this discussion in the past. I will post to the Lip list for cites. Give them a day to respond.

If I'm wrong, I will certainly say so and with apologies. If I'm correct, then I've reaffirmed my knowledge.

Eileen

[hundredacres]

I rode a full Perch for a couple years. She wasn't boingety at all. More like...bong-ety. It 'looked' like boingety though.

My spine hurts just thinking about it.

;)

[Thomas_1]

Seriously have a good study at what happened to the breeding lines and you'll see that the breed became so vulnerable and with such limited stock that they've not been 2 types for centuries.

You'll find that they all go back to Pluto, a Frederiksborg, Conversano and Neapolitano, both Neapolitans, Maestroso and Favory, both Kladrubers and Siglavy, an Arab. However its never been such a heterogenous collection as it seems. The Frederiksborgs, Neopolitans and Kladrubers are all based on the same Andalusian stock and there's been cross breeding for centuries.

I've a lot of books about the breed and would prefer to rely on those than the opinions of folks on a BB ;)

[grayarabpony]

Not that I'd call this perch typical, but I thought it'd add something to the discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES5QymopDEQ

(He's schooling GP now, will be showing I2)

Very, very impressive. He shows a lot of push and carry behind and his poll is high -- YAY -- I'm so tired of seeing horses BTV.

OK that one -- probably a gelding though -- I would use in a breeding program with a heavy warmblood or really good-moving Irish Draught (of which there are many).

Edited to add: I watched the first 2:30. Will watch the rest later.

[slc2]

ironbess that is a really, really nice video!


pirouettes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R5uOQ49Y5I&feature=related

[ironbessflint]

Very, very impressive. He shows a lot of push and carry behind and his poll is high -- YAY -- I'm so tired of seeing horses BTV.

OK that one -- probably a gelding though -- I would use in a breeding program with a heavy warmblood or really good-moving Irish Draught (of which there are many).

Edited to add: I watched the first 2:30. Will watch the rest later.

Actually, she's a mare :D

Ambrey - she's a percheron/appaloosa cross!

Here's her owner/trainer's website: http://maryforckdressage.com/

[ironbessflint]

pirouettes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R5uOQ49Y5I&feature=related

:lol::lol::lol:

[Roan]

Seriously have a good study at what happened to the breeding lines and you'll see that the breed became so vulnerable and with such limited stock that they've not been 2 types for centuries.

I've a lot of books about the breed and would prefer to rely on those than the opinions of folks on a BB ;)

Not on a BB, Thomas. These people are the ones who run the North American registries and are members of the LIF (Lipizzan International Federation). It's a listserv for Lipizzaner owners/breeders.

I understand that the lines died down to nothing, but that doesn't mean that they weren't bred for two distinct things and that there aren't distinctions now. The SRS has a strict criteria as to what they will accept or not accept. Carriage-type Lipizzaners are not acceptable to them.

My mare got marked down for her height in her 3 year old evaluation. Those evaluations are done by the ex-Director of the Spanish Riding School, Dr. Jaromir Oulehla. There are three recommendations: Riding, Driving and Breeding. If there aren't two types, why are there two recommendations on the evaluations?

Dr. Oulehla's comments were: "not typical baroque Lipizzan" and "Tall. Borderline breeding type". Thankfully he passed her in all three categories, but just barely. Of course any three year old Lip still has 5 years of growing still to do. I'm going to have her evaluated again in a couple of years.

Eileen

[grayarabpony]

Actually, she's a mare :D

Ambrey - she's a percheron/appaloosa cross!

Here's her owner/trainer's website: http://maryforckdressage.com/

I thought Muriel was the rider's name. :o :lol: I missed the caption at the beginning.

It's funny but like any breed you can find really talented individuals. I know her dad went to GP and besides I've seen some really good Appie crosses. There are some very nice Appies out there and Appies seem to vary a lot in type. Jules Nyssen trained a TB/ Appie cross the GP when I took some lessons with him 20 years ago, and I once knew an Appie who could piaffe -- very well. Crazy as a loon though. I'll have to look for some video of Cottonwood Flame.

OK, that makes sense that she's a cross. I thought the world had gone mad. :D Even if her dad did compete to GP she doesn't look pure draft to me.

[Roan]

Lipps and Percherons are NOTHING alike at all.

This was our Lipp mare, imported from Piber Stud. http://www.hphoofcare.com/birta.jpg. Tell me she looks like a draft horse??? I think not. She was a little over 15 hands, had Size 2 feet, nice conformation, very typey (VERY pregnant in this picture), moderate bone. Nothing draft like at all about her or her baby who was also pure Lipp from a Piber imported stallion.
Birta is SO lovely A2!

Lip mares tend to be not as "heavy-looking" as the boys do, especially when they are out of training.

Eileen

[grayarabpony]

How often are Lipizanners flea-bitten?

[Auventera Two]

Check out this little dainty thing. This is 100% my favorite video so far of any posted of draft horses being ridden - WOW!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDnO46V9aPw&feature=related

NICE music by the way. Pappa Taj is the king. :)

Oh my. That looks like a rhino in a tutu. Yeech.

[Roan]

How often are Lipizanners flea-bitten?

I have no idea. It's supposed to be "rare", but all the Lips I've seen in person have had some bites. It's a recessive part of the graying gene, so it can show up a few generations along. My mare has flea bites, and so does her sire and dam, but there are only a bites here and there. Not like Birta. Birta is a lot older, though, and from what I've read the older they get, the more bites they get.

My 2 cents
Eileen

[ironbessflint]

My trainer's little lip stallion. Not drafty :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/ironbessflint/Tracy%20and%20ConMar/P1017633.jpg

[Thomas_1]

How often are Lipizanners flea-bitten?

I've never had one flea bitten and never seen one flea bitten.

Dappled as they lighten as they mature but never flea bitten before.

[Ambrey]

ironbess that is a really, really nice video!


pirouettes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R5uOQ49Y5I&feature=related

OK, that horse is freaking adorable.

[Perch]

Oh my. That looks like a rhino in a tutu. Yeech.

I'm curious as to why you say "Yeech". She is a very good example of your average percheron doing some very nice work.

[draftxfan]

Timely thread for me: my 3/4-Perch mare, out of a full-Perch dam and by Portmanteau, an own son of Cottonwood Flame, is confirmed in foal to the Piber-bred, SRS-trained Lip stallion Conversano Barbarina.

I can't wait to see the result next summer!

(BTW, I'm pretty sure that at least three of Woody's -- Cottonwood Flame's -- get either are showing or have shown at FEI: Portmanteau, Forest, and Muriel Du Bois.)

[Ambrey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aa_lippizaner_08_04_09_00.jpg

http://www.agriculture.state.pa.us/farmshow/lib/farmshow/Supreme_Draft_Horse.jpg

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs5305/$FILE/02percheron3yr_1_c.jpg

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs11707/$FILE/olds07102_1.jpg (http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs11707/$FILE/olds07102_1.jpg)

Not meant to prove anything other than that there can be overlap in "drafty looking."

[Ambrey]

I'm curious as to why you say "Yeech". She is a very good example of your average percheron doing some very nice work.

She's not even a Percheron, I don't think, is she?

[Perch]

Yes, Sara, is a full percheron, as is Samantha who is also shown on one of Mary Forck's you tube videos of horses for sale.

[Thomas_1]

[URL]Not meant to prove anything

As always you're right :winkgrin:

You proved nothing!

[grayarabpony]

I have no idea. It's supposed to be "rare", but all the Lips I've seen in person have had some bites. It's a recessive part of the graying gene, so it can show up a few generations along. My mare has flea bites, and so does her sire and dam, but there are only a bites here and there. Not like Birta. Birta is a lot older, though, and from what I've read the older they get, the more bites they get.

My 2 cents
Eileen

I ask because someone told me they are never flea-bitten, but obviously they can be.

[Shiaway]

OMG. I just realized my horse (a small lusitano) moves more like a percheron than a lipp. Maybe I should hook him up to something and see if he can pull like one, too! LOL

Seriously, though. He has a neck built like a draft horse's and I really think his movement looks like the horses in these two vids that were posted before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES5QymopDEQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDnO46V9aPw&feature=related

I need to drag my dad out to do a video of us tomorrow and then post it or something!

[mp]

This one isn't that suspended, but see how he has the kind of spanish, paddling trot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SbnifTCtas



Can you tell me what you see in this video that you like? And what you mean by "spanish, paddling trot"? Paddling is not a good thing in any horse, spanish or not. And this horse wouldn't be a particularly good mover even if he weren't overweight and out of shape. As it is, he can't hold a right lead on a huge circle for more than a few strides, poor thing.

And please don't accuse me of draft bashing. This is a cute horse, but I wouldn't hold him up as an example of a "nice mover" no matter what breed he was.

[Ambrey]

OMG. I just realized my horse (a small lusitano) moves more like a percheron than a lipp. Maybe I should hook him up to something and see if he can pull like one, too! LOL

Well, I've been told by many people that my horse looks Spanish ;)

[Ambrey]

Can you tell me what you see in this video that you like? And what you mean by "spanish, paddling trot"? Paddling is not a good thing in any horse, spanish or not. And this horse wouldn't be a particularly good mover even if she weren't overweight and out of shape. As it is, she can't hold a right lead on a huge circle for more than a few strides, poor thing.

And please don't accuse me of draft bashing. She's a cute mare, but I wouldn't hold her up as an example of a "nice mover" no matter what breed she was.

No, I was only pointing out the different types of movement in Percherons, and that there is no "typical". I honestly couldn't find any videos of Percherons like Lewin's. Maybe hers is "one in a million," but I don't think so.

I think paddling is something you see in horses bred for high knee action. The horses posted previously were not "action" horses, they were more working type.

[Ambrey]

Yes, Sara, is a full percheron, as is Samantha who is also shown on one of Mary Forck's you tube videos of horses for sale.

I'm sorry, I thought she was saying "yeech" to the pirouette video :)

[mp]

No, I was only pointing out the different types of movement in Percherons, and that there is no "typical". I honestly couldn't find any videos of Percherons like Lewin's. Maybe hers is "one in a million," but I don't think so.

I think paddling is something you see in horses bred for high knee action. The horses posted previously were not "action" horses, they were more working type.

Weeeelll ... OK. That's a good example of average, to be generous, and out of shape, to put it mildly.

You do see paddling in saddleseat horses, but that horse doesn't even come close to that kind of action. And it still isn't desirable.

[Ambrey]

Weeeelll ... OK. That's a good example of average, to be generous, and out of shape, to put it mildly.

In Pasos, it's normal. I'm not sure about hitch horses- but that horse had a much quicker, higher knee action than the horses posted previously.

[Phyxius]

They are BOINGITY -- you go UP when they trot, really UP. It's like riding a pogo stick. If you can do a real (as in not just for a couple of stridges) sitting trot on a Lip and not show a lot of air time, yer good :D



:confused:

[Roan]

I've never had one flea bitten and never seen one flea bitten.

Dappled as they lighten as they mature but never flea bitten before.

Flea bitten -- dots of original base coat color over the body, sometimes light, sometimes rather heavy.

I have one and I've seen several. There's a link to Birta in this thread, take a look.

Eileen

[Ambrey]

Smokey is only 7 and dappled across most of his body, flea bitten on his face.

Not that he's lipp, but still ;)

[Roan]

:confused:

Sorry, did you want me to type slower?

Eileen

[Phyxius]

Sorry, did you want me to type slower?

Eileen

Yeah that'd be great.

[mp]

In Pasos, it's normal. I'm not sure about hitch horses- but that horse had a much quicker, higher knee action than the horses posted previously.

Pasos don't trot. They have four-beat lateral gaits. By saddleseat, I mean the high-kneee action of saddlebreds and some Arabians. And paddling is not desirable.

[slc2]

An outward swing of the foot as it comes forward is desirable in some breeds like the Paso and is called 'termino'.

For a long time, the hunt seat world influenced what sort of mover we wanted very heavily, and that meant that horses that swing their feet outward were not liked.

If a horse swings his feet outward somewhat as he moves, it is not to affect the score at all in dressage, since it doesn't affect the balance or suppleness of the horse in any way. A great many Lusitanos, Lipizanners, Arabs, even warmbloods do this, without any effect on their performance or soundness; the foot lands normally and it is a 'flightpath only' thing.

However, if the horse rolls from side to side, swings his front end or shoulders ('paddling'), or puts his feet down on the ground at an extreme angle, then it can affect the dressage performance or wear and tear on the legs.

That can be seen in almost any breed, we had a Thb that did that very much, but it can also occur in the baroque, iberian or whatever breeds.

There is another gait variation, just kind of a heavy, earhbound jog, that people sometimes call 'paddling'.

The most important thing to understand is where the outward ('lateral') gait deviation comes from. If it does not come from a defect in the legs and feet (pigeon towed, cow hocks, etc, causes leg to swing inward or outward, both of which people can perceive as a 'lateral' deviation), and the foot lands flat/normal, there is nothing against it.

[Auventera Two]

I have no idea. It's supposed to be "rare", but all the Lips I've seen in person have had some bites. It's a recessive part of the graying gene, so it can show up a few generations along. My mare has flea bites, and so does her sire and dam, but there are only a bites here and there. Not like Birta. Birta is a lot older, though, and from what I've read the older they get, the more bites they get.

My 2 cents
Eileen

I think Birta was about 14 or 15 in that photo. She would be around 18 now. This is the farm that owns her now. They're in New York. http://www.waltzinghorsefarm.com/mares.php

I haven't seen her since she left our place, and they haven't posted any new photos.

[Thomas_1]

Flea bitten -- dots of original base coat color over the body, sometimes light, sometimes rather heavy.

I have one and I've seen several. There's a link to Birta in this thread, take a look.

Eileen Not sure why you posted this..... I know what flea bitten is ! Also I said I'd never seen a flea bitten Lipizzaner before seeing the one posted here.

[Roan]

Not sure why you posted this..... I know what flea bitten is ! Also I said I'd never seen a flea bitten Lipizzaner before seeing the one posted here.

Only to ensure that we are both on the same page, Thomas. One person's dumb rock is another's awesome agate, y'know? That's the only reason :D

Here's a head and shoulder shot of my girl, taken last year the day we went out to see her for the first time. She has more bites now:

http://lipizzanworld.com/mistybrae/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=5299

So now you've seen two Lipizzaners with flea bites :D

And no, she's not in a double bridle now. I have enough problems with a snaffle :D

Eileen

[Roan]

I think Birta was about 14 or 15 in that photo. She would be around 18 now. This is the farm that owns her now. They're in New York. http://www.waltzinghorsefarm.com/mares.php

I haven't seen her since she left our place, and they haven't posted any new photos.

Yep, Sara's place. I had her on my list of places to visit when I was looking for my Lipizzan. Was interested in her 3 year old colt, but that was a little young and I wanted something backed so I looked more local first. I really lucked out when I found Fionna. She wasn't even advertised for sale because the breeder was sick of tire thumpers.

Pictures. Dang, yah! I forgot to send her the link you sent me. I'm going to do that today. Thanks for reminding me!

Eileen

[Zinnia]

Regarding flea-bitten Lipizzans: they're not rare at all. Many develop a few flea bites, and some look like a pepper shaker exploded on them. The little stallion I owned, Favory Cremona, was very thickly covered with pure black flecks on his ice-white coat. My current gelding, Pluto III Shama, has started developing flea bites at age 11. They multiply with age, from what I understand.

As for the boingy thing, I've ridden oh, maybe 10 different Lipizzans, and owned four. The trot on most of them had a nice swing to it, but on the scale of things they're not as bouncy or suspended as a nice warmblood (I owned a Trakehner and have ridden several WBs, including my trainer's GP Holsteiner mare, so I know swoop when I feel it). What the trot does have is a lovely feeling of power and cattiness---it feels like I'm sitting on a rocket I can steer with a thought when my gelding is collected and through, but the trot at that point is extremely easy to sit and the canter is a dream. Not because it's not boingy, but because the back is up and soft. I'll add that his trot is a misery to sit when his back isn't up, but that's the same for any horse trotting with a stiff and hollow back and a tense neck.

I'm not even going to touch the Percheron thing, except to note that a fellow boarder at my stable has a lovely Percheron/TB cross gelding. He's coming along quite nicely in his dressage, and he's a brave and able eventer. She's been offered big bucks by members of the local hunt who want him for a hunt horse. He got the best of both breeds---bone and good brains from the Percheron, and a riding horse physique and an engine from the TB. It's a nice cross.

[Donella]

This is strange thread. I am really starting to wonder about things...
Anyways, my cousin keeps her Lippizzan mare here at our place...and I will assure all of you, there is no resemblance. The lippizzan floats when she moves, the suspension is incredible, she "carries" instead of "pushes" . The whole front end comes up. There just is no resemblance to a draft horse whatsoever, at all, perioed. And this is an out of shape, 15 yr old broodie.
If anything, the way she moves could be described as the complete oppposite of draft horse movement...at least in my mind.

[slc2]

"I am really starting to wonder about things..."

the heat is driving them mad. they were teetering on the edge to start.

[Roan]

Zinnia!

I was hoping someone with more Lip experience would chime in and fix any faus pax I made :D

Regarding flea-bitten Lipizzans: they're not rare at all. Many develop a few flea bites, and some look like a pepper shaker exploded on them. The little stallion I owned, Favory Cremona, was very thickly covered with pure black flecks on his ice-white coat. My current gelding, Pluto III Shama, has started developing flea bites at age 11. They multiply with age, from what I understand.Thank-you for correcting me. I wasn't sure if I was remembering correctly and I couldn't find a reference in the discussion on the list.

As for the boingy thing, I've ridden oh, maybe 10 different Lipizzans, and owned four. The trot on most of them had a nice swing to it, but on the scale of things they're not as bouncy or suspended as a nice warmblood (I owned a Trakehner and have ridden several WBs, including my trainer's GP Holsteiner mare, so I know swoop when I feel it). What the trot does have is a lovely feeling of power and cattiness---it feels like I'm sitting on a rocket I can steer with a thought when my gelding is collected and through, but the trot at that point is extremely easy to sit and the canter is a dream. Not because it's not boingy, but because the back is up and soft. I'll add that his trot is a misery to sit when his back isn't up, but that's the same for any horse trotting with a stiff and hollow back and a tense neck.Oh, pooh. You've nixed the magical movement :D

Do you think the WBs had more "Oomph" because of the shoulder reach? Is that where the "flashiness" at the extensions comes in?

Eileen

[Bats79]

I believe that it is "air time" that makes a trot hard to sit - combined with the engagement of the hindquarter and the roundness of the back.

So and extraordinary pony might have huge suspension in relation to his size but still be much easier to sit to than a medium moving large horse.

The shortness of the leg in relation to the length of the back in many baroque breeds tends to give them less suspension, so even though then are engaged and round you don't have that moment when the horse has thrust you up but then disappears below you creating the rider's version of "air time". :)

I can't relate any similarities between the percheron and the Lipizzaner. Nothing about the conformation of the draft horse inclines them to suspension in the trot.

But this horse - Romedio, a grandson of Ramzes - does show the very small amount of baroque that he has inherited from the Shagya mare Jordi who carried the Siglavy line.

http://www.vgp.com.au/brokeford/pages/Stallions/images/Romedio_stand.jpg

The stallion Capitano looks and moves more like a big Lippy than any draft horse I have seen.

Mind you I have a friend who bred a magnificent 1/4 perch 3/4 TB that was a successful saddle hack (got a ribbon in the Garryowen for the interest of any Aussies who might read) then went on to compete successfully at Prix St George level.

[Zinnia]

Zinnia!

I was hoping someone with more Lip experience would chime in and fix any faus pax I made :D

Thank-you for correcting me. I wasn't sure if I was remembering correctly and I couldn't find a reference in the discussion on the list.

>>>Oh, pooh. You've nixed the magical movement :D

Nancy

Eileen

Well, from a distance they all look pure white. My little stallion did, and like I said, he was amazingly fleabitten. See http://www.nancykam.com/horses/fritz.htm, and please ignore the lousy position I am in that bottom picture. I ride better now. That was something like 10 years ago. <g>

I think we can all get carried away with our Magical Mystery Horses. <g> They need to be seen as real horses, not magic unicorns with invisible horns, and ridden as they require. My trainer tells me that Sammy is the strongest horse she's ever ridden, much stronger than her huge WB mare was, or any of the various other breed horses she trains. Add to that his ability to learn, his ability and willingness to bend his hocks and sit, and his amazing work ethic (he never wants to stop and he never gets frustrated or angry with new things) and you've got a pretty darned nice horse.

>>>Do you think the WBs had more "Oomph" because of the shoulder reach? Is that where the "flashiness" at the extensions comes in?

It's the leg length primarily and how the hind legs are conformed. You don't get oomph if all you have is toe-flipping flash in front. They have to step way underneath and carry, and really use the back. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't look at the back, they just see the flailing forelegs and think the horse is wonderful.

I was at an evaluation when Dr. O said of a young mare, "Sell this one as a riding horse. You'll get a good price, because she is fancy in front and no one looks at the weak hind end." Ouch, but it was true.

Nancy

[AnotherRound]

This is strange thread. I am really starting to wonder about things...
Anyways, my cousin keeps her Lippizzan mare here at our place...and I will assure all of you, there is no resemblance. The lippizzan floats when she moves, the suspension is incredible, she "carries" instead of "pushes" . The whole front end comes up. There just is no resemblance to a draft horse whatsoever, at all, perioed. And this is an out of shape, 15 yr old broodie.
If anything, the way she moves could be described as the complete oppposite of draft horse movement...at least in my mind.

Exactly. Why are people comparing draft horses (percherons) to lippizaners, again? A bit 'apples and oranges', ennit? Well, they are both horses, but what exactly is similar about them? Not build or movement that I've ever seen. :confused:

[FriesianX]

http://www.spanish-norman.com/noblewarhorse.htm

Maybe this is part of the confusion? I haven't read all this thread, but there is actually common genetic markers between the Percheron and the Andalusian horse (not the Lippizan though - but aren't there some common genetic markers from Lippi to Andy?). The link above will give a bit of info on it, as well as the link to the actual genetic marker study.

The Perchies are generally a lighter, sportier draft than other draft breeds, and some of them are pretty capable of moving well, and some DO cross with lighter breeds to make a nice riding horse. They trace back to Spanish-Norman war horses - riding horses!

Anyway, just wondering if the link to Andalusian genetics has been confused with the Lippizan?

[slc2]

The guys doing Dr Deb type research at bowling green told me there are common genetic markers between ALL horse breeds.

[Kathy Johnson]

After 5 pages of very entertaining debate, I have to chime in with one of those timely coincidences. I rode a friend's Percheron/TB cross on Friday and remarked out loud, "wow, he reminds me so much of my old Lipizzan stallion, Pluto III Roberta." Some of the Lip lines are heavier boned and heavier movers than others, just as some of the Perch lines are lighter than others. In fact, the Perch cross was lighter moving than my Lipizzan. Probably just a coincidence, but boy did those horses look and ride alike.

[slc2]

you're such great help, LOL.

[Kathy Johnson]

Yeah, I know. I'm here to enable :)

[slc2]

That this thread may never die, that it may be resurrected like aliens from primordial slime for sequel after sequel, a TOAST to Kathy Johnson. Here, Here!:lol:

[Ambrey]

After 5 pages of very entertaining debate, I have to chime in with one of those timely coincidences. I rode a friend's Percheron/TB cross on Friday and remarked out loud, "wow, he reminds me so much of my old Lipizzan stallion, Pluto III Roberta." Some of the Lip lines are heavier boned and heavier movers than others, just as some of the Perch lines are lighter than others. In fact, the Perch cross was lighter moving than my Lipizzan. Probably just a coincidence, but boy did those horses look and ride alike.

LOL, way to go against the grain. You might be labeled a crazy draft lover if you keep it up!

[Ambrey]

"I am really starting to wonder about things..."

the heat is driving them mad. they were teetering on the edge to start.

Wow, SLC, you're really getting good at this. Why don't you start a "crazy draft lovers suck!" thread on TMP?

[slc2]

why don't you try some other way to start trouble :lol:

it's not the subject that's crazy, it's the way it's debated.

[Roan]

ROFL! I'm sure Tempel Farms would love hearing a stallion they bred compared to a draft cross, Kathy :D

Eileen

[~Freedom~]

That this thread may never die, that it may be resurrected like aliens from primordial slime for sequel after sequel,

And after they scrap away all the primordial slime they discover that yes indeed they do all have some identical genetic markers...two eyes, four legs and a tail.:yes:

[draftxfan]

This is precisely the type I'm hoping to breed by putting my Perch-X mare to a Lip stallion -- the photo is of my wonderful, now nineteen-year-old gelding, taken about five years ago:

[horsekpr]

Draftxfan, while your gelding looks very nice,to me,he does not look like any Lip I have seen,appart from being grey. i have ridden a few Lips,and a few perchs.I couldn't really say I found them at all similar types.I rode a couple of friesians for a while ,and while they more closely resembled the Lips,I found them very different. Never ridden a Lusitano ,or an Andalusian ,but i would think they might be closer to the Lips,particularly the Lusitanos. BTW I really did enjoy the Lips.I thought they were very cool.One of them enjoyed doing the levade,which was a hoot.Can't really imagine a perch doing a levade.

[CatOnLap]

DraftXfan, there are often very lovely horses come out of perchX mares put to light horse stallions. Good luck with that. It is a more reliable way to get a good riding horse than just a draft cross.

Horsekpr, my perch cross has a nice talent for sitting back into a proper levade in cross ties. I am not encouraging it.

[perpetual_novice]

DraftXfan, there are often very lovely horses come out of perchX mares put to light horse stallions. Good luck with that. It is a more reliable way to get a good riding horse than just a draft cross.

Horsekpr, my perch cross has a nice talent for sitting back into a proper levade in cross ties. I am not encouraging it.

I leave my grade full Percheron out of crossties when we are doing things that may stress him for that very reason.

I haven't joined in this debate because obviously one cannot compare Lips with Percherons.

But can Percherons get their weight back and engage their hocks? Many can. Mine sure can. When I first had him and we were having some "issues" we weren't doing levade but what he was doing couldn't exactly be described as rearing either. ;) Sitting on him (and bear in mind I am an incredible chicken) I never felt that we were going to ever go over and I felt that we could have sat in that pose forever.

Onlookers commented that he looked like one of those statues you see in town squares.

Not bad for a plough beast who looks like a big shaggy Setland when he's not under saddle.

I recently was considering buying a Chestnut Percheron mare (they do exist) who is in foal to a Cremello Andalusian. The foal will be a palamino Spanish Norman cross. I think if that foal is a filly it would be a good candidate to cross back to an approved TB stallion. Unfortunately I don't have the money to follow through on this with the increases in hay, fuel and board. Still would love to do it though.

[belambi]

Nice lip video.. huge file so right click..save as

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1926832/Maestro12and3.wmv

[Ambrey]

And tonight in David Letterman's "Top 10,"

"Top 10 COTH threads that really, really should never be resurrected."

[Roan]

And tonight in David Letterman's "Top 10,"

"Top 10 COTH threads that really, really should never be resurrected."

Yah, have to agree with that.

I do want to point out to the person ^^^ way up in the thread who was talking about breeding a Lip to a Perch mare -- PLEASE DON'T DO THAT.

Seriously. It's been done before and the cross just . . . sucks. Lips are very heavy horses, densely boned, and when you cross them on a draft you get a mass so dense it just loses its lightness.

Cross a draft on a light breed, not a baroque or heavy breed.

Now, please let the thread die and stay dead :)

Eileen

[Bats79]

I REALLY REALLY wish I could remember to read the dates on some threads before I'm feeling a sense of deja vu. Haven't we done this already? Then you look at the date. :(

[slc2]

Actually, it's a 'new one' to hear that Percherons have 'Lipizanner blood'. It's really a little peculiar to read how history...changes. But it forms a part of the justification that Percherons make better dressage horses than other heavy breeds or heavy breed crosses might make. It's said today that to cross them with Andalusians or Saddlebreds is the best way to produce a 'cheap' dressage horse. In the past, the great idea of how to produce a great dressage cross 'for cheap' was to cross a suitable draft stallion on a Thoroughbred.

Lipizanners have never been very numerous. While it's possible that a few stallions might have become available for breeding, it's pretty unlikely that Lipizanners really have had as much breeding outreach as is often said. If one or two individuals were brought into the breeding pool, I doubt how much influence that really would have.

In old books, one reads that Percherons have 'Arab blood', and that's what gives them the 'more refinement' than 'the other draft breeds'. When I look at the 'Perche' horses in France (for example, all the breeding stallions at St-Lo), I don't see a very 'refined' horse. They are massive, very handsome, rather large, very thickly built.

Frankly, there is probably only one horse breed in the entire world that doesn't have 'Arab blood' in it: the Icelandic. Since 'no outside blood has been introduced since 900 AD' or something like that.

I think all draft breeds have a lighter, fancier show strain and a 'farm' type. In the past, most of them had what's sometimes called a 'mountain' type, very short on the leg, very sturdy.

For me, I don't think I'd ever cross anything with an Andalusian except a Lusitano of similar type.

[twofatponies]

ironbess that is a really, really nice video!


pirouettes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R5uOQ49Y5I&feature=related

Now that one looks like a giant exmoor pony!

[draftxfan]

Originally posted by Roan:
I do want to point out to the person ^^^ way up in the thread who was talking about breeding a Lip to a Perch mare -- PLEASE DON'T DO THAT.

Seriously. It's been done before and the cross just . . . sucks. Lips are very heavy horses, densely boned, and when you cross them on a draft you get a mass so dense it just loses its lightness.


Well, bless your heart, and thanks for your concern.:rolleyes: My three-and-a-half-month-old colt will be so, so, so sorry to hear that he "sucks" (well, of course, he still literally does, but figuratively, uh-uh, not by any stretch of the imagination!).

Again, he's by Conversano Barbarina and out of a Cottonwood Flame granddaughter. And he is a keeper. Here's Igby:

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[Thomas_1]

To me it's like comparing chalk and cheese.

I've had stallions of both breeds and Lippizaners is a breed I've had in number. I bred, trained and put to harness a team of Percheron stallions for a brewery over here. So both breeds are breeds I actually like.

But to even think they can be similar or have same attributes for dressage is absolutely gob-smackingly absurd IMO.

Percherons are an old breed from France but they had infusions of Arab blood via Golophin and Gallipoly on selected Percheron mares early in the 19th Century.

Yes they can be free moving considering their size and substance. If they're good, true to type percherons then they ought to have hocks that flex well and be free moving and take less choppy strides than a lot of the heavy cold blood work horses.

Lippizzaners - nothing like a Percheron. Apart from the colour! :winkgrin:

I'm struggling to begin to imagine how the heck anyone can think a typical Percheron and a typical Lippizzaner ride anything like each other.

If I wanted an intelligent, athletic horse capable of doing high school dressage and only had a choice of Lippizzaner or Percheron, then in a heartbeat I'd choose a Lippizzaner.

If however I was on the heavy and large side and wanted a docile strong horse that wasn't overly sluggish and perhaps also to haul a cart then I might go for a percheron.

For sure though it would never be my breed of choice for dressage. As in NO WAY.

[Ambrey]

If however I was on the heavy and large side and wanted a docile strong horse that wasn't overly sluggish and perhaps also to haul a cart then I might go for a percheron.


This shows how very little you know about Percherons and the different subtypes.

Hitch-type percherons are bred to be far from docile, to have extreme action, and to be extremely forward and electric. This is the type of Perch and cross I've had experience with, so I'd never suggest anyone without a good knowledge of Percheron bloodlines would buy one if what they wanted was "docile."

If you wanted the above horse and ended up with a hitch-type Percheron, or one of the newer light saddle-type, you'd be better off with a lippizan. It would be easier to hold on to when it dumped you in the dirt and so it could go for a run, not weighing 2000 lbs.

Draftxfan, what a lovely baby! Please post photos as he grows, I'd love to see how he develops!

[Thomas_1]

This shows how very little you know about Percherons and the different subtypes.

Hitch-type percherons are bred to be far from docile, to have extreme action, and to be extremely forward and electric. This is the type of Perch and cross I've had experience with, so I'd never suggest anyone without a good knowledge of Percheron bloodlines would buy one if what they wanted was "docile."

If you wanted the above horse and ended up with a hitch-type Percheron, or one of the newer light saddle-type, you'd be better off with a lippizan. It would be easier to hold on to when it dumped you in the dirt and so it could go for a run, not weighing 2000 lbs.

Draftxfan, what a lovely baby! Please post photos as he grows, I'd love to see how he develops!

My dear, you haven't got a clue! Indeed I'd go so far as to say that you're talking out of your backside.

I fully appreciate that you're a novice rider with a horse that may well be some sort of Percheron cross but trust me that doesn't make you an expert on Percherons.

For sure it doesn't give you any insight whatsoever into what I do and don't know about the breed.

I'm actually VERY familiar with them and I'm also thinking for sure that you don't actually know what docile means. If you took the trouble to understand the breed standard and the preferred disposition then you'd KNOW that they're meant to be easy to handle and good tempered and amenable.

Just to help with your level of knowledge, docile actually means willing to be taught and led.

And all that rubbish about "hitch-type" and "newer light types" is hogwash. Percherons are Percherons. ONE breed standard.

If they're true to type then they're a good Percheron and true to type. If they're not then you may as well just have a cross breed of some sort.

All that tosh on Percherons dumping you in the dirt because it wanted to go for a run - well excuse me whilst I laugh my socks off! And lipizzaners being easier to hold on to if they want to go for a run. Well let me just go change my underpants when I've finished laughing!

HINT: That's your experience of being taken for a ride!

If you want to give me a lecture on Percherons and their ability to do dressage then go away and get some real experience and come back in 30 years when you've actually got some real personal practical knowledge and experience to talk about and then we might get round to having an intelligent or constructive conversation.

Till then, I'll put you back on ignore and please note this thread isn't about you. Neither is it about your minimal experience with your Percheron cross.

[Roan]

Well, bless your heart, and thanks for your concern.:rolleyes: My three-and-a-half-month-old colt will be so, so, so sorry to hear that he "sucks" (well, of course, he still literally does, but figuratively, uh-uh, not by any stretch of the imagination!).

Again, he's by Conversano Barbarina and out of a Cottonwood Flame granddaughter. And he is a keeper. Here's Igby:

You can be offended if you want -- that's your prerogative -- but there is a reason why you don't see Lip/draft crosses. You aren't trying anything that hasn't been tried before . . . and not tried again.

The best cross for a Lip, if you just have to cross, is an Arab or Andie/Lusi.

I'd like to ask what you hoped to achieve by this cross?

Your guy is cute, but he's got a very heavy neck and a very thick throatlatch. He does have Bobbie's legs, but have to see how he is as a four year old. Right now I don't see a lot of Lip in him.


Eileen

[Ambrey]

Oh, that's right, you don't live in the US and don't believe that we're breeding them differently over here, or that we don't have a single breed standard over here, despite being told repeatedly.

Thomas, come over here, find the hitchiest bred Perch you can find, work with it for a couple of years and come back to me. I do not need to be an "expert rider" to understand that the word "docile" does not apply.

In more on-topic conversation, I have had the opportunity recently to watch a Percheron learn to Piaffe. Truly lovely :) More sit than a whole lot of piaffes I've seen at very high levels!

[CatOnLap]

Well, the mods caution us not to post our horses if we don't want them discussed.

That colt is a very cute baby, but not a baby I would consider as an upper level dressage prospect. That neck and throatlatch are not going to get any more refined as he gets older and the back is not going to get shorter. As an all round family horse, you can't beat my perch cross mare- she's tolerant, broad, strong and solid and she moves really nicely like her perch ancestors. And she can do a nice second level test. She can even levade in pillars as I stated LAST YEAR in this zombie resurrection thread. Not out of frustration but because she can rock back on her hind end and carry the weight and curl her front feet under neatly. But as a dressage horse? Nope- the perch conformation around the neck and head, similar to the colt pictured, makes it harder for them to really flex at the poll comfortably.

[Ambrey]

Actually, just FYI, since part of that mod request seems to have been completely missed, it also said "please avoid offering further advice to a specific situation if it's not being solicited."

[slc2]

There are differences in all draft horses over here, including Percherons. Those we see on the farm, working, are very different from the show horses, though sometimes the low end of the competitive spectrum has horses that are very similar to farm horses. One of the reasons is, that farmers don't like to buy all the extra feed the bigger horse needs.

In fact, quite a few farm horses around here aren't full draft at all, but draft-standardbred crosses, draft quarterhorse crosses, draft morgan crosses, or whatever else is available. They pull a light plough on a small area, pull a wagon, pull a cart or buggy to town, and pull a few stumps or stone boat now and again, pull a manure spreader. If a small stylish horse like a Morgan was developed to do light agricultural, a draft cross can do much the same work. When they are full draft, they tend to be smaller, have a lower action, than show horses.

So I think Thomas1, in insisting 'a Percheron is a Percheron' isn't correct. It's also ironic, since he so often insists here that horses are 'individuals'. The American breeds just aren't always the same as the horses in Europe or the continent, and visitors from those places don't always get to see all the different segments of the market here.

Within the breed standard, there are a variety of types, some taller and lighter, some stockier and shorter. The breed standard doesn't preclude either. I worked with a Percheron stallion that was under 16 hands, my friend has a pair that are over 17 hands. They look very, very different from the one I worked with. They were what is called in America, 'Hitchier'. They are taller and lift their knees higher with less shoeing.

But I also think Ambrey is wrong. Very, very wrong, about the hitchier type being some sort of very forward, 'electric' animal.

In general, what I've seen of Percherons and general how those who work with them view them, NO ONE considers them to be 'electric' or 'hot' or 'very forward'.

There is also a very, very mistaken idea out there that 'draft horses are so gentle', and it leads many, many amateurs to buy youngsters that they then have terrible trouble with. What they find out is that training a young draft horse is quite a bit like training any young horse - hard work and needing either much experience, or much help, or both. These horses aren't born 'dead' and they aren't 'gentle', and they aren't baby sitter angels. Any horse is made into a 'baby sitter angel' and make reliable, by training.

No matter what breed or type a horse is, he needs to be trained. Their reactions, their level of sensitivity and fear, is still different from say, a Thoroughbred. We used to love to watch the draft crosses and warmbloods stand there and stare at each other as the Thoroughbred went tearing around their big pasture. 'What is WRONG with that boy? Oh well, let's keep eating, perhaps he'll settle down....', LOL. They ARE different in how much they volunteer to run around, how reactive to the surroundings, how they react to training.

The one I worked with, though, was trained to be extremely obedient. I watched how he was trained by his draft barn, and watched the other horses, and it is VERY, VERY different from how most amateurs and most dressage and sport people I've ever run into, expect their horses to behave.

They aren't abusive, but they absolutely expect IMMEDIATE obedience, or they were very strongly corrected. When they tapped with the whip or said TROT, the horses all, every one I saw, went FORWARD IMMEDIATELY, and they went forward til the handler pulled on the reins or said WHOA, then they stopped absolutely dead still until they were told to do something. When they were told to GO they went. IMMEDIATELY. I would hardly call that 'electric'.

I asked the driver there how they get the horses to be so immediately obedient. He said very simply, 'you get after them when they don't'.

I suppose an inexperienced (or very stubborn) person might take that to be a 'breed trait' or a 'trait of hitchy horses'. It may be a way of justifying using them for sport and insisting the Percheron makes 'THE BEST' of the draft crosses.

[Thomas_1]

Well, the mods caution us not to post our horses if we don't want them discussed.

That colt is a very cute baby, but not a baby I would consider as an upper level dressage prospect. That neck and throatlatch are not going to get any more refined as he gets older and the back is not going to get shorter. As an all round family horse, you can't beat my perch cross mare- she's tolerant, broad, strong and solid and she moves really nicely like her perch ancestors. And she can do a nice second level test. She can even levade in pillars as I stated LAST YEAR in this zombie resurrection thread. Not out of frustration but because she can rock back on her hind end and carry the weight and curl her front feet under neatly. But as a dressage horse? Nope- the perch conformation around the neck and head, similar to the colt pictured, makes it harder for them to really flex at the poll comfortably.

Excellent posting and I entirely endorse your view on the colt and also my experience with Percherons is the same as yours.

For years my stallion was shown in ridden classes and did well. He also did side saddle and 'normal' dressage classes and did reasonably o.k. Often even winning. But that was with an exceptionally good dressage rider who on the day could get the best out of most horses and competing against others who could turn the best horse into "average".

High level purist dressage though for a Percheron. NO WAY ON THIS PLANET.

[CatOnLap]

With regards to breed standars on this side of the pond- they are NOT different from the UK...

The Percheron is a breed of the heavy draft horse, developed in and deriving its name from the district in France where it was raised, an area referred to as "Le Perche".

The Percheron possesses great muscular development combined with style and action. they are known throughout the world as the breed characterized by a long, aggressive, smooth, and true stride that shows determination and willingness.

The Percheron has a very pleasing disposition...He is also expected to be of marked tractability and an easy keeper. ...The Percheron is very versatile. They are readily adapted to varying climates and conditions. They have the strength to pull heavy loads and the graceful style to pull a fine carriage. Percherons can be ridden and some have been known to make fine jumpers.

not a word about dressage in either breed standard...

[Thomas_1]

There are differences in all draft horses over here, including Percherons. So I think Thomas1, in insisting 'a Percheron is a Percheron' isn't correct. Try telling that to the Percheron breed societies.

Within the breed standard, there are a variety of types, some taller and lighter, some stockier and shorter. Erm yes of course there is. But nowhere in the breed standard is there anything that precludes the differences you've just described. Though the UK and French breed standards define height and weight. For a mare it's not less than 16.1 and for a stallion not less than 16.2. It also defines weight.

The breed standard doesn't preclude either. I worked with a Percheron stallion that was under 16 hands, my friend has a pair that are over 17 hands. They look very, very different from the one I worked with. They were what is called in America, 'Hitchier'. In breed standard terms that would be one that was out of the height standard and one that is within standard.

But I also think Ambrey is wrong. Very, very wrong, about the hitchier type being some sort of very forward, electric animal. Pretty much the norm for Ambrey.

In general, what I've seen is that Percherons in general are considered by NO ONE to be 'electric' or 'hot' or 'very forward'. In my time I've known a LOT of Percherons and Percheron breeders. I've never known one yet that aspires to breed Percherons that are electric or very hot! Indeed I well know that if that's what they produced, then they'd be horrified.

Ambrey's experience is clearly limited with regard to Percherons and I think she too frequently interprets poor training and nerves and poor riding for an "electric" or "hot" or "very forward" horse.

This thread though is about pure bred Percherons versus Lipizzaners.

So onward in that vein.....

[CatOnLap]

Yes, percherons versus lipizanners and their crosses. I had a lovely Spanish Norman (andalusion/percheron cross) boarder filly in my barn for a time. She was purchased by a dressage rider who had never trained her own horse before. She quickly grew to be too much horse for dressage and for that rider. She had the size and bulk of her perch mom, and the hot temperament of her andy dad and was sold on from one owner to another. Last I heard she was down in the US pulling a carriage in Louisiana. When you cross a draft to a light horse you can never be entirely sure what you will get and the perfectly balanced medium horse with the light horse body and the willing perch temperament is a dice roll for sure. She looked a LOT like the colt on this thread at 4 months when she first came to me.

[Thomas_1]

With regards to breed standars on this side of the pond- they are NOT different from the UK...

Of course I knew that all along and for the record:

British Breed Standard:

Temperament
One of the most docile and good-natured of any breed, yet in no way showing any sign of sluggishness or dullness. In stables, or out in the dense town traffic, nothing appears to upset them. This placid nature makes it possible to switch from the environment of the farm to that of the busy town, with the minimum of risk or delay, an often-troublesome period with some other breeds.


Australian Breed Standard:

The Percheron Horse is essentially a draught horse of immense power, yet kind and gentle, massive, deep, short in his coupling, heavily muscled, strong in his top line, rugged and straight in his bone, with feet of reasonable size, of good quality hard blue horn and legs as clean and free from long hair. He is neat in his head and neck and well balanced throughout. There is unmistakable evidence of quality in general, with action straight and bold, with a long free stride.

[egontoast]

Percherons v. Lippizans ?

apples v. oranges

[Thomas_1]

Just as I said in my first posting.

Comparing the purebreeds is Like comparing chalk and cheese!

When you cross a draft to a light horse you can never be entirely sure what you will get and the perfectly balanced medium horse with the light horse body and the willing perch temperament is a dice roll for sure.

Absolutely spot on. It's a bit like crossing a St Bernard dog with a whippet.

It's no longer a purebreed with a high possibility of being true to type.

It's now a cross breed and goodness knows how it will turn out with all those attributes in there.

[slc2]

It doesn't matter if the 'breed standard' is for 16.1, that's irrelevant. There are 15.3 hand, 15.2 hand, and 16.0 hand Percherons, and farmers tend to like the smaller ones. The large ones tend to go for the show market, the smaller ones to the farm.

'Try telling that to the breed organizations'.

Try telling Thomas1 anything. There are smaller and larger individuals and out of standard individuals of every breed that ever had a book, and individuals who are smaller or larger than what organizations or specific people want.

If Ambrey had 75 years of experience, I think she's the type that would still have lengthy reasons for why the horse she had, was so much better than other horses. I don't think the statements about Percherons are anything more than that. People believe what they want to believe and what they need to believe.

The whole argument with Ambrey has always been that draft and draft crosses are great dressasge horses. At various times, they are great FEI horses, or great Amateur horses for doing the lower levels, or great Amateur horses for doing further than the lower levels.

The Draft-Lipizanner baby is cute, I don't see him as an upper level prospect, but as a nice family horse.

There is one for sale on dreamhorse.com right now (Percheron Lipizanner), so the breeder could get an idea of what the cross is like at maturity, by looking on that site.

I look at the baby's neck, which even now is very thick underneath and low, and the back, and the relationship of the mass and depth of the hind quarters to the front, which is massive. Yes, compared to others of the same age, there is a difference there.

It's a type of horse many of us older folks would like - heavier, probably calmer than some other horses, and a pretty color. I would not look for the cross to take the international scene by storm.

I'm very glad the owner wants to keep him. While there is always some market for odd crosses, and always there is the customer out there who believes he can go to the Olympics on some unusual breeding, the fact is, the middle of the market, where most of the crossbreds are marketed, has been absolutely destroyed. Our local boarding barns are less than half full.

We are in the middle of a disaster, and breeders need all the support they can get, but they also need to avoid any risks if they want to sell. People aren't getting those middle of the market horses, and ones who pass away aren't being replaced. For a few years, this means to stick to formula and take as few risks as possible.

[Ambrey]

How many discussions have you had with Percheron breeders over here, SLC or Thomas? From what I can see, Thomas has refused to believe everything Cielo Azure (a US breeder) has tried to tell him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4RIJ4-csmA

Champion winner. Nice show of his docility. Now, I won't claim that he was showing any craziness, but if you'll notice the methods are almost like arab showing in the efforts to show electricity and energy. Hardly a demonstration of "docility" as breed standard.

Even jigged all the way out of the arena.

p.s. Over here, those various hights are still registerable, and lighter weight animals are actually preferred by many people. Don't you think, Thomas, in all of your splendor, that would make some difference in the type of animals we have over here?

eta: SLC, most Warmbloods I know are also trained to obedience. I said they were electric, I didn't say they were unmanageable.

[twofatponies]

Breed standard aside, there seem to be two types in the US - the hitch types are leggier, the farm types chunkier.

The hotness could be just from training or handling methods (not hot compared to an Arab, just compared to the farm chunk type).

It could just be that people choose from the natural variation in the breed, selecting snappier, prettier horses for show hitch work, where a working guy just wants a horse with a good mind and body, not worried about appearances, and doesn't trim and shine them up. (ETA: nor put the special shoes on the front to get that snapping lift in the legs)

I saw a whole class of Percherons freak out at a big show once. One tore a banner off the wall, tried to jump the six foot wall. 2/3 of the others in the class started running, but they are pretty slow and the ground crew caught them all. Several drivers were overturned.

The Percheron/TB cross is somewhat known at least where I live in New England I know a half dozen people with that cross - sort of a heavy field hunter type horse. Some I knew were easy and kind, some were stubborn and difficult.

[egontoast]

In more on-topic conversation, I have had the opportunity recently to watch a Percheron learn to Piaffe. Truly lovely :) More sit than a whole lot of piaffes I've seen at very high levels!


Is there any video of the Percheron learning to piaffe which shows this?

[Galley]

i have a percheron/QH cross who i have been working with for 2 years in dressage with very good trainers who have been kind and considerate to my goal—initially—of thinking this cute, black and white paint could go higher than Intro Level in Dressage. He has gotten as high as 76's in Intro Level (walk/trot) and won his local region's championship. But now it is the balanced canter required in Dressage that is well beyond his conformation. He can canter but it is so much work for him to do good transitions in to and out of the canter. I have learned through this experience that his conformation is excellent—for a Percheron—but not for a horse working in the the discipline of Dressage. Although I will keep working with my little guy (he is only 15 1) and do schooling shows with him I have finally decided to go with what the experts recommend which is buy a breed of horse that is truly suitable for dressage and keep my best buddy for hacking out or even 2nd field foxhunting...and Intro Level Dressage.

[Ambrey]

Is there any video of the Percheron learning to piaffe which shows this?

It isn't true if you can't find it on the internet?

Interesting :)

No, I do not have video.

[MistyBlue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4RIJ4-csmA

Champion winner. Nice show of his docility. Now, I won't claim that he was showing any craziness, but if you'll notice the methods are almost like arab showing in the efforts to show electricity and energy. Hardly a demonstration of "docility" as breed standard.

Even jigged all the way out of the arena.

Ooo, he's a big fancy boy! :yes: Had fun watching him strut his stuff...and watching his handler too. Not sure which one is the fancier mover. :D

But there might be a misunderstanding here. In English and in actual England, the word docile simply means accepts training and teaching. Docile does not mean dead on it's hooves at all, just means in general the animal shouldn;t act up like up like a fool or be resistent to training. At least the breed standard is for docility...a willingness to be handled and trained.
Considering the definition of docile, the horse in that video is definitely docile. My two QHs would give me a bunch of shite back if I held a whip in their face and leapt around like a spider monkey on crack whilst leading them around. That Perch handled it very well and willingly...docilely.
(dictionaries are free online, BTW ;))
However as fancy and handsome as that Perch is...and considering he's probably a very nice example of his breed...if I were dressage horse shopping and saw a horse moving like that I'd walk away. Not for dressage, not that movement. Nothing wrong with his movement, it's just not optimum for dressage.
And FWIW...the horse is trotting very nicely in hand on it's way out of the arena, that's not a jig.
Maybe the issue with the argument here is communication issues? There's a lack of understanding the definitions of words being used and also a lack of recognizing good movement for dressage.

[twofatponies]

It's not a percheron (maybe a Jutland?), and it's in a circus, but it does half pass, passage, capriole and spanish walk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo5WGZwxRrI

ETA: here's a draft breed (Noriker) being demoed in three styles of riding, including dressage (nothing fancy, but horse goes nicely):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv1vgiB0TDA

[Ambrey]

I'm told that some of them are less trainable than other (just like in WBs), so they breed for a balance of manageability and electricity. Just like in WBs. But the docility isn't the priority, as manageability without electricity isn't winning in the show ring.

BTW, that horse is shod to move that way. You'd be surprised how much would change with quality work. But no, that's not the horse the sport-type breeders are breeding for, that's a more hitch type.

And yes, he's trotting. When the cue is for walking. Any time that happens, I usually call it a jig, not just when it's being held back ;)

[Thomas_1]

It doesn't matter if the 'breed standard' is for 16.1, that's irrelevant. There are 15.3 hand, 15.2 hand, and 16.0 hand Percherons, and farmers tend to like the smaller ones. The large ones tend to go for the show market, the smaller ones to the farm.

'Try telling that to the breed organizations'.

Try telling Thomas1 anything. There are smaller and larger individuals and out of standard individuals of every breed that ever had a book, and individuals who are smaller or larger than what organizations or specific people want.

I actually think we're probably in violent agreement.

I well know that Percherons come in wide height variety and that some people prefer little ones and some prefer the big ones. But that doesn't mean there's more than one breed standard or that ones that just fall outwith the height criteria aren't true to type.

If you're considering height alone, then you could have a Percheron under 16 hands that IN ALL OTHER WAYS meets the standard.

No different in my mind to the best Welsh Section D I currently happen to own. He's 16 hands. So doesn't conform to the breed standard as far as that specific criteria is concerned. But he happens to meet all the other criteria and his size happens to suit me for what I want. Indeed for me he's a better size than if he were true to type. Everything else about him though screams good quality and true to type Welsh Section D.

If Ambrey had 75 years of experience, I think she's the type that would still have lengthy reasons for why the horse she had, was so much better than other horses. :yes: Truth is though Ambrey is a novice rider with a cross bred Percheron. That in itself puts a different complexion on her "expertise" and her attempts at personal put downs.

Trying to assert that a Percheron type has been developed that is supposed to be "electric" or "hot" is just ....... well...... silly!

The whole argument with Ambrey has always been that draft and draft crosses are great dressasge horses. Here we call that arguing that black is white!

Percherons versus Lipizzaners = chalk versus cheese.

Percherons as exceptional dressage horses = In your dreams!

And I'll reiterate so there's no misunderstanding "I LIKE PERCHERONS"

They're pretty athletic and useful when you want a riding horse up to weight and size.

[Ambrey]

:yes: Truth is though Ambrey is a novice rider with a cross bred Percheron. That in itself puts a different complexion on her "expertise" and her attempts at personal put downs.


Thomas, do you just go home at night and pat yourself on the back for being such a nice guy all day? :lol: I wouldn't resort to sarcasm, but from what I can tell the personal putdown is your only form of communication. I'll honor a truce if you will, as it's by no means a form of communication I prefer.

So now, have you seen yet that the US is breeding a lighter, more electric and forward type of Percheron? One that might not be accepted by overseas breed associations? This is the only point I was trying to make.

[MistyBlue]

I'm told that some of them are less trainable than other (just like in WBs), so they breed for a balance of manageability and electricity.
There isn't anything in the Percheron Breed Association's website that says they want them bred for electricity and unfortunately the "I'm told" doesn't equal Breed Standard. A less trainable horse would not conform to it's own registries breed standard.

But the docility isn't the priority, as manageability without electricity isn't winning in the show ring.
Again, unfortunately, not according to the associations actual Breed Standard. Docility is a desired and bred in trait for a good percheron. And again, being docile has zero to do with whether the horse is "electric" or not. And I'm thinking "animated" might be a better description than electric. An electric horse is usually an extremely sensitive and over reactive horse. Something definitely *not* found often in a well bred Percheron.
Docile does not mean manageable. It means more willing to please and willing to be trained. A horse can be docile and animated. Seriously, dictionary. ;)

And yes, he's trotting. When the cue is for walking. Any time that happens, I usually call it a jig, not just when it's being held back
You may call trotting when asked to walk a jig...but that's not the actual definition of jigging. That's like saying your was rearing when it tossed it's head. :confused: That horse was calmly trotting alongside it's handler. It had animated leg action. It was docile and not jigging.

[Ghazzu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4RIJ4-csmA

Champion winner. Nice show of his docility. Now, I won't claim that he was showing any craziness, but if you'll notice the methods are almost like arab showing in the efforts to show electricity and energy. Hardly a demonstration of "docility" as breed standard.


Ummmm, Not.
Horse is so hot that he needs to have a second person run behind him with a whip?
Sounds like a really quiet horse that needs significant "persuasion" to put on a bit of a show.

[hitchinmygetalong]

So now, have you seen yet that the US is breeding a lighter, more electric and forward type of Percheron? One that might not be accepted by overseas breed associations? This is the only point I was trying to make.

That's not exactly a good thing, you know, and perhaps there is a reason it would not be accepted by "overseas" breed associations.

If what you are saying is true, the American breeders are bastardizing the breed by breeding to a new standard. Pretty soon what will be dancing around in the show rings will bear faint resemblance to what generations of working horsemen have carefully bred - a work horse.

There are a number of American breeds out there that actually have two or more standards, though only one is official. Look at the Morgans. "Old type" vs. "new type". There is ONE BREED STANDARD yet these two types are as far away from each other as the moon and the sun.

Not a good thing. Yet American breeders seem to not see this. They go blindly along, breeding what "sells" or "wins" - with judges often being breeders themselves - and the breed that was MEANT to be becomes extinct.

I am heartened to see that other countries are perhaps more stringent in their breeding standards.

[FancyFree]

You may call trotting when asked to walk a jig...but that's not the actual definition of jigging. That's like saying your was rearing when it tossed it's head. That horse was calmly trotting alongside it's handler. It had animated leg action. It was docile and not jigging.

ITA. That was not jigging! I had an OTTB who would jig all the way home from a trail ride. I would try to get her to walk, but she'd be a ball of nervous energy taking mincing trot steps, squirming right and left. Hard to describe but most annoying. That is jigging. :lol:

[Kyzteke]

It doesn't matter if the 'breed standard' is for 16.1, that's irrelevant. There are 15.3 hand, 15.2 hand, and 16.0 hand Percherons, and farmers tend to like the smaller ones. The large ones tend to go for the show market, the smaller ones to the farm.

Actually, I don't think that's true either.

I live near one of the biggest draft horse shows in the nation -- a 4 day affair attended by draft breeders all over the West. Plenty of "farmers" show up with their horses, because, let's face it, you don't farm with horse these days unless you like horses.

Those Perches are big -- I doubt I saw anything under 16hh and most taller.

The thing with breed standards: they are suppose to be a verbal description of what that breed is suppose to look like, be like, move like, think like. Same as dogs.

Doesn't mean there aren't horses out there of that breed that don't fit the breed standard, because people (unfortunately) can breed whatever they damn well want to. Sometimes, if the person is smart, the horse/dog/cat comes out better....but sometimes worse. IF you're good at it, the horse might win halter classes, but even if it doesn't in THAT BREED it might still be a good horse.

For example, the Arab breed standard actually mentions a flatter croup, which I abhor. So the Arabs I like all have good, strong, articulated hips and are great using horses...but they will never win at halter....which is the whole point of a breed standard. It is the written guideline used for breed shows of all types -- dogs, cats, horses....and since it's NOT a performance test, is of limited value (IMHO). Still those horses I mentioned above ARE still Arabs....so I guess there could be the odd "hot" Perch that would be good at upper level dressage, but I'm thinking it's a rare thing.

I do not have a great deal of personal knowledge of either breed, however anyone with an eye can see they look nothing alike and move nothing alike. And I would never cross the two -- what would be the point?

The foal posted looks healthy and cute and I'm sure he is much beloved by his owner/breeder, but there is nothing about him that suggests (upper level) dressage.

[Cielo Azure]

There isn't anything in the Percheron Breed Association's website that says they want them bred for electricity and unfortunately the "I'm told" doesn't equal Breed Standard. A less trainable horse would not conform to it's own registries breed standard.


Again, unfortunately, not according to the associations actual Breed Standard. Docility is a desired and bred in trait for a good percheron. And again, being docile has zero to do with whether the horse is "electric" or not. And I'm thinking "animated" might be a better description than electric. An electric horse is usually an extremely sensitive and over reactive horse. Something definitely *not* found often in a well bred Percheron.
Docile does not mean manageable. It means more willing to please and willing to be trained. A horse can be docile and animated. Seriously, dictionary. ;)



WHAT ARE YOU WRITING ABOUT?!?!?
THE PHAOA (Percheorn Horse Association of America) DOESN'T HAVE A BREED STANDARD!!!!!
(banging head on computer)

There is a little blurb on the web written by the association secretary (Alex Christian) on the Percheron disposition, years ago in response to so many people asking what a Percheron should be.
http://www.percheronhorse.org/about/disp.htm
IS THIS WHAT YOU ARE WRITING ABOUT!?!?
AGAIN, THE PERCHERONS IN THE USA DO NOT HAVE A BREED STANDARD!!!
The association was formed in the 1880s, without a breed standard. The registry has been closed for well over a 100 years but no standard for Percherons. Attempts have been made but no standard has been written. Why? The latest reason is that the breed is too disversified and the horses are used in too many different types of activities for their to be one standard. Frankly, I could write a novel on this. I know the politics, the in and outs, but THERE IS NO BREED STANDARD!

Just go to a breed show, the horses there will not match up to that little article in any way, shape of form.

The French do have a standard, it was re-written after WW11 to include Percherons as a MEAT breed. Think about how that has changed the breed in France. Do not look to the French horses to represent how Percherons were. They only represent what Percherons in France look like NOW (as a "livestock" horse -bred for human consumption)!

This little blog has a lot of photos from Percherons from the 1800s and early 1900s:
http://cieloazure.blogspot.com/

[egontoast]

Is there any video of the Percheron learning to piaffe which shows this?


It isn't true if you can't find it on the internet?

Interesting :)



:confused: HUH? It was just a question. :confused:

[grayarabpony]

I haven't seen footage of Cottonwood Flame, only his daughter Muriel (a Perch/ Appy cross), and I really liked her. Is Cottonwood Flame one of a kind? Anyone know about his breeders?

[Cielo Azure]

I haven't seen footage of Cottonwood Flame, only his daughter Muriel (a Perch/ Appy cross), and I really liked her. Is Cottonwood Flame one of a kind? Anyone know about his breeders?

No, he is not one of a kind. He is one of the FIRST serious Percheron in the dressage ring in the USA to my knowledge. He was a modern Percheron: his background is Justamere Showtime (for which is the most common horse in North American pedigrees and he was a wildly popular stud when the registry was down to 500 animals), Maverick, and Koncarlaet. All modern, show Percheron lines.

[Cielo Azure]

Ummmm, Not.
Horse is so hot that he needs to have a second person run behind him with a whip?
Sounds like a really quiet horse that needs significant "persuasion" to put on a bit of a show.

The halter ring with Percherons always has a "whip." It isn't a question of need but what is done. I am not defending it, but it is what is done in the USA.

That the horse had a whip means nothing other than the owner was doing what is expected of him (in order to win) in the show ring.

In Canada, it is illegal to use a whip and the horses move just the same (only with less nervousness).

USING A WHIP IS STANDARD SHOW PRACTICES. In a rated show, you would score lower for not having a whip.

[Cielo Azure]

That's not exactly a good thing, you know, and perhaps there is a reason it would not be accepted by "overseas" breed associations.

If what you are saying is true, the American breeders are bastardizing the breed by breeding to a new standard. Pretty soon what will be dancing around in the show rings will bear faint resemblance to what generations of working horsemen have carefully bred - a work horse.

There are a number of American breeds out there that actually have two or more standards, though only one is official. Look at the Morgans. "Old type" vs. "new type". There is ONE BREED STANDARD yet these two types are as far away from each other as the moon and the sun.

Not a good thing. Yet American breeders seem to not see this. They go blindly along, breeding what "sells" or "wins" - with judges often being breeders themselves - and the breed that was MEANT to be becomes extinct.

I am heartened to see that other countries are perhaps more stringent in their breeding standards.


The French do have a standard, it was re-written after WW11 to include Percherons as a MEAT breed. Think about how that has changed the breed in France. Do not look to the French horses to represent how Percherons were. They only represent what Percherons in France look like NOW (as a "livestock" horse -bred for human consumption)!

The French are importing American Percherons to try to regain what they have lost in their light coaching type of Percherons. One of my stallion's daughters is in France and she is accepted by the French Association, as have stallions.

Why do you write that American horses are not accepted by the French registry? What knowledge do you have on this?

If you like to eat horses, I guess you think the new French breed standard is better than it was before WW11. Each to their own.

[draftxfan]

Well.

Is fifty continuous years of horse ownership and riding enough to get me a pass out of the "novice" category? I believe I competed in my first recognized dressage show -- albeit, yes, at lowly first level -- as a teenager, in 1971. By 1973 I was training with a very young Kathy Connelly, and a couple of years after that, with a likewise youthful Mark Weissbecker. Both were Graduate A Pony Clubbers, and gifted riders and teachers even then. In the decades since, I've ridden with many other talented folks, including Mary Wanless and (regularly) Sibley Hannigan, whose daughter Jane, a member of the '08 World Cup team, did most of the early training on my Perch-cross mare. I haven't shown in many, many years and am unlikely to do so again anytime soon -- it's really, really not my thing.

Over half a century I have owned well-bred Arabs and ponies and one rather nice Irish Draught mare (whom I knocked heads terribly with), but I now own only Perch crosses -- three of 'em. I have ridden plenty of warmbloods (DWBs and Hanos, mostly) and TBs and more than a few baroque horses, and I could afford to buy a pretty decent example (especially in today's market) of whatever breed I liked. But what I like is a Perch cross -- a really good Perch cross. I like the brain, the temperament, the athleticism -- I like the soul that all of mine have (yes, even the baby). I bred the youngster specifically for my aging self -- horses for courses, in a very real sense. His dam is a wonderful mare, and I'd've been perfectly happy to get another just like her, but as she's three quarters Perch, I also hoped to lighten her up just a little bit. Could I have bred her to a nice TB? Sure, but why the hell shouldn't I try a Lip stallion instead -- particularly one as nice as the horse I chose?

I wouldn't dream of making a blanket statement -- and I don't imagine Ambrey is insisting, either, despite SLC's assertion to the contrary -- that "drafts and draft crosses ARE great dressage horses" (emphasis added to SLC's "quoting" of Ambrey). But I do think that a few exceptional drafts and draft crosses CAN BE very, very good at dressage, and even more CAN BE "good enough" -- and how many of you, of us, really need much more than that? The other twenty-three hours of the day, they're just great horses, period.

(grayarabpony: Woody -- Cottonwood Flame -- may or may not have been one of a kind, as Cielo Azure says, but he also sired some awfully nice crossbred get, including Muriel Du Bois and Portmanteau, my mare's sire. Both have been actively competing at I-1, I understand. You can see photos of both Woody and Porter at Forrest Hill's Web site.)

[DoubleTwistedWire]

A breed organization's own "Disposition and Characteristics" certainly reads like a standard.

I don't see how Percheron versus Lippizzaner is even an argument? They're both perfectly nice purpose bred breeds. I've known examples of each that were lovely horses. But Lippizzaners have been bred for hundreds of years to do upper level dressage. Yes, some are good at other things. Just like Percherons have been bred for a couple hundred years to pull things. Some are good at other things, too. As is the case for every single breed of horse out there.

Perhaps the bigger question to ponder is what is the recent fascination with taking purpose-bred breeds and trying to shoehorn the outliers into other disciplines, and proclaim them the Next Big Thing. There are lovely Perchies out there, and lovely crosses doing all sorts of things. But if you love them, why not love them for what they're meant to be doing--be heavy driving horses? Why try to take one and make it something else?

[goeslikestink]

by the Percheron Breed Registries

* National Percheron Society of France

Percheron History & Origin

The first known records for this breed do show that from the 8th century the Percheron came from an area called La Perche which is a district of Normandy, France. This area is actually known as one of the oldest horse breeding areas in the world.

Percherons were used primarily for their draft work such as pulling ploughs, carts and the like. It was in the 8th century however that Arabian and other oriental breeds were cross bred with the native heavy horse thus producing the first of the Percheron that was used for light draft work and riding.

In the Middle Ages Spanish blood was introduced to the Percheron horse breed by Comte de Perche and later the Comte de Rotrou used Andalusian stallions with the Percheron mares. This was done to improve the breed and efforts were made again in the 18th century when Arab and English thoroughbreds were also used. The Royal Stud at Le Pin was where Arabian stallions were made available to breeders of Percheron horses. It was in 1820 that two grey Arab stallions were imported and were used for breeding on the existing stock. It is from this that the present day grey colour for Percherons comes. In 1823 a horse called Jean Le Blanc was foaled and as a result all todays Percherons can have their ancestry traced back to this horse.

The Percheron, as with most heavy horse breeds, served primarily as a work horse. It was used on farms, pulling carts and was also used as a warhorse. During the first world war it was used to haul large guns and ammunition carts.

Countries as far afield as North and South America, Britain and other European countries imported the Percheron but they wanted it mainly as a workhorse and preferred the heavy draft version rather than the light draft then used in La Perche.

By the middle of the 19th century the older bloodlines of the Percheron had almost vanished and heavy mares from places like Brittany were used to mix with the last of the old breed. As the area around La Perche was mainly rural, breeding for the heavier Percheron started again and this is the type of Percheron we see today.

Percheron Evolution

The Percheron was first imported to the United States in 1839 by Edward Harris of Moorestown, New Jersey. Two particular stallions called Normandy and Louis Napoleon were imported to Ohio in 1851. Louis Napoleon was later sold to a family called the Dunhams in Illinois and they were to become instrumental in forming the Percheron Association of America.

Despite their French connections the first Percheron to be imported into Canada came via the United States, but did originally came from France, thus the Percheron remained, genetically speaking, pure. The registered horses in both Canada and the United States can be traced back through their ancestry directly to stock originating in La Perche.

As with most heavy horse breeds the Second World War saw a rapid decline in their commercial use as mechanization was regarded as being more efficient and quicker. This was even more pronounced in America where the Percheron was all but forgotten. It was the Amish people and a handful of farmers that were dedicated to the preservation of the Percheron.

Despite all the changes in breeding over the centuries the Percheron remains one of the favorite heavy horse breeds. There are still the two types, one heavy draft and the lighter draft. The horse is known for being amenable, energetic and elegant hence its popularity today. The total numbers are down from their heyday but concerted efforts by breeders have ensured the survival of the breed.
a
Percheron Uses

Although work is what the heavy horses do best, they are valued riding horses and are beginning to make their mark in dressage.
Percheron Conformation -
Courtesy of The British Percheron Horse Society

General: The British Percheron Horse is essentially a heavy draught horse possessing great muscular development combined with style and activity. It should possess ample bone of good quality, and give a general impression of balance and power.

Color: Grey or black, with a minimum of white. No other color is eligible for entry in the Stud Book. Skin and coat should be of fine quality. Color will tend to lighten in older horses.

Size: Stallions should not be less that 16 hands 3 inches in height and mares not less than 16 hands 1 inch, but width and depth must not be sacrificed to height at maturity.

Head: Wide across the eyes, which should be full and docile; ears medium in size and erect; deep cheek, curved on lower side, not long from eye to nose; intelligent expression.

Body: Strong neck, not short, full arched crest in case of Stallions; wide chest, deep well-laid shoulders; back strong and short; rib wide and deep, deep at flank; hind quarters of exceptional width and long from hips to tail, avoiding any suggestion of goose rump.

Limbs: Strong legs and full second thighs, big knees and broad hocks; heavy flat bone, short cannons, pasterns of medium length, feet of reasonable size, of good quality hard blue horn. Limbs as clean and free from hair as possible.

Action: Typical of the breed; straight, bold, with a long free stride rather than short snappy action. Hocks well flexed and kept close.

Temperament: One of the most docile and good-natured of any breed, yet in no way showing any sign of sluggishness or dullness. In stables, or out in the dense town traffic, nothing appears to upset them. This placid nature makes it possible to switch from the environment of the farm to that of the busy town, with the minimum of risk or delay, an often-troublesome period with some other breeds.

[goeslikestink]

A breed organization's own "Disposition and Characteristics" certainly reads like a standard.

I don't see how Percheron versus Lippizzaner is even an argument? They're both perfectly nice purpose bred breeds. I've known examples of each that were lovely horses. But Lippizzaners have been bred for hundreds of years to do upper level dressage. Yes, some are good at other things. Just like Percherons have been bred for a couple hundred years to pull things. Some are good at other things, too. As is the case for every single breed of horse out there.

Perhaps the bigger question to ponder is what is the recent fascination with taking purpose-bred breeds and trying to shoehorn the outliers into other disciplines, and proclaim them the Next Big Thing. There are lovely Perchies out there, and lovely crosses doing all sorts of things. But if you love them, why not love them for what they're meant to be doing--be heavy driving horses? Why try to take one and make it something else?


tend to agree to a point as most people would

so have posted what a percheron is and what a lippizzaner is
and how long they have been about and for uses they were used for
heres a link to the history of the lippizzaner

lippizzners are light carriage horses as well as used for dressage by spanish riding school and they excel in dressage the lippzzaners have also been used in circus's when there were the highlight of entertainment before tv but right up to 1971 when they ceased touring jasimne smart rides a lippizanner and still today if she was to perform it would be 1st choice a lippzzaner

so therefore dressage is more asscoaited with the lippizzaner than that perhaps of driving
as people havent really thought about what type of horse ,makes for a light carriage horse



http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/lipizzan/index.htm&ei=pEKtSs-LOKHbjQeJ-JHjBw&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&usg=AFQjCNHCzVT5qNODwo9w6AEdmURdn2fTlw

the percheron is a draft horse that is for the more heavier vehicle from plough to larger carriages
or floats to carry goods ie hauglage floats

both are and can be carriage horses in there own right

[Ambrey]

A breed organization's own "Disposition and Characteristics" certainly reads like a standard.


Not if what the breed association has on their website is not what is winning in halter or in-hand arenas.

And the reason people want to "make them something they are not?" Because it's not something they are not. American Perch breeders started breeding these lighter, more energetic horses (for good or bad- it is my understanding that there are plenty of people on both sides of that argument!). People started riding them and saying... hey, wait a minute, these things are neat dressage horses!

When this argument first started, anti-draft people were saying that percherons were entirely unsuited for dressage, that it was cruel to try to "force" a percheron (or a cross, for that matter) to do dressage, that they'd go lame before they made it to first level, etc. As time goes by that argument becomes more untenable, because the people who are trying it are having some success.

And this has nothing to do with my horse other than that he made me a huge fan of Percherons.

But the Percheron in North America is no more an exclusively work breed than the QH is an exclusively stock breed. Competition has driven breeding in a different direction.

[Couture TB]

Both ther Percheron and the Lip are lovely horses. But to say that they are both equal for dressage is not even close. The Lip was bred for hundreds of years to produce this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RzdwAhwgBI&feature=related

I have seen quite a few nice Percherons doing lower level dressage, heck I know a girl who did Training level eventing on one! But this horse here is one of the nicer Percerons for being ridden dressage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6Rf_t8eOK8 and even so I would not consider this type for an upper level horse. A horse for an adult ammie wanting to do lower levels? YOU BET! But they are not bred to be dressage horses. They are bred to be carriage horses. Can they do lower level dressage? Of course, any breed can. That does not mean that someone who say wants to be competitive at the international level will go " Hey that horse can do 1st level why not Grand Prix?"

My one question is: Why must we always try to change the perpose of certain breeds? Why make something into something else? Why not just use the horse for what they are bred for? Why change the breeds to the point they no longer resemble what they originally were? I look at some breeds, Morgan for example, and they seem to want them to look like another breed. Why not be happy with the Morgan looking like a Morgan? Why the need to breed it lighter and lighter with more and more motion, to look like an ASB? Why not purchase a ASB?
Or the QH? Look at the ones that do huntseat they are 16/17 TB? Just buy a TB!

[slc2]

Why not just use the horse for what they are bred for? Why change the breeds to the point they no longer resemble what they originally were

Agree. Morgan type has indeed changed hugely. It really has surprised me what has happened with the breed.

[Ambrey]

Seems to me that if nobody ever bred a horse to be something different than its ancestors, we'd all be doing 20 meter circles on something that looks like this:

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/enlarge/przewalskis-horse_image.html

[slc2]

This is always the problem, that the basic development of breeds from a primitive horse, is very different from the issue of preserving existing breeds and using them for the most ideal purpose given how they are built and conformed. There still is a big problem with Gaellent Quest said, with perfectly nice breeds made into something else, or changing in a few years to something less useful for the original intent.

In truth, most horse breeds last for only have a half dozen or a dozen decades. A book on horse breeds published in 1850 has almost none of the breeds we are so obsessed with today.

[MistyBlue]

If there are umpty-number of completely different breeds out there with many of them more suitable already to certain disciplines, why not choose those breeds for the chosen discipline of the rider?
I've never understood buying a certain breed/type and then rebreeding it to try change what it already is. It isn't to fill an empty niche...there are already tons of breeds already made specifically for that discipline or that are more suitably built for that discipline.
There definitely are riding percherons out there. And many do well in dressage. But why keep trying to change them through breeding to make them more like other dressage horses? Or more like jumpers, or whatever discipline? Percherons are great horses just as they are...it would be more of an endorsement of the breed to keep them the great horses they already are. It doesn't say much for the breeders' opinions of the breed if they keep trying to change them completely. :confused:
I'd also question even the Liight Draft versions of Percherons being able to stay sound over the long haul in upper level dressage. They're already breeding too many of the different WBs and other types way too large for the intricate moves and joint pounding collection of upper level dressage. The buying public likes the idea of oversized horses...so they'll breed them and if they can't stay sound for too long...all the better because there's more sales as people have to replace them more often. :no: So adding in the heavier built of the light draft Percheron to the already "too rigorous for very large horses" upper dressage levels doesn't sound like a decision made in the best interests of the horse. It sounds more like trying to make the owner's desired breed do something it was never intended to do. A light draft isn't really light when compared to non-drafts. Taking a couple hundred lbs off and refining the built a bit doesn't make the horse able to comfortably do what light saddle horses do.

[MistyBlue]

Cielo, my apologies for accidentally knocking the cheese off your cracker there. :winkgrin: Didn't mean to make you angry enough to lock your caps key. As was said earlier...when a registry puts out a desired breed description, it's understood as this is what's, ya know, desirable. Like a breed standard.

Breed standards aren't a bad thing either. At least if breeds have actual standards, *stick* to those standards and then make sure judges judge according to thorse standards...there are less and less culls because fewer people try to reinvent the wheel. And when you're changing a breed's conformation, there's a whole lot of culls for a good long while.
And with a stricter upheld set of standards...then creating new breeds by selective cross breeding a few generations is much more succesful because you have a much better idea of your original breeds' traits since those were specifically bred into them for generations. You get more consistent success with crossing two breed standard horses than two "we wanted to try something different with this breed" type of horses.

I like Percherons...a lot. They're great horses. But just as many QHs have been ruined in type and reputation by constantly trying t change them do something they were never meant to do...the same can happen for other very type specific breeds.

[hitchinmygetalong]

<snip>

Why do you write that American horses are not accepted by the French registry? What knowledge do you have on this?


So sorry. I was reacting to this statement made by an earlier poster:

So now, have you seen yet that the US is breeding a lighter, more electric and forward type of Percheron? One that might not be accepted by overseas breed associations?

And yes, you are correct in that I know nothing about Percheron breed associations. Thank you for correcting me.

[egontoast]

That's Ok hitch because you are learning to sail your ship.:)

Great quote.

[DoubleTwistedWire]

both are and can be carriage horses in there own right


And if this thread were on the Driving forum, it would be an entirely different matter. Either breed is perfectly suitable for that, dependent on what you're planning to hitch them up to.

Any horse, from a mini to a full Clydesdale, can do lower level dressage. It's good for them. I'm far from an expert on upper-level work, but it is most definitely NOT something every horse can do. Certain breeds have selected for that ability, and though I may love a TB, if I were dressage horse shopping, I probably wouldn't be looking at them first. But for an eventer? Yep.

(Though, as a kid, I always wanted a Lip/TB cross to event. I thought it would be sproingy over fences and a whiz at dressage.)

[Ambrey]

Uh, there's a bit of a difference between saying that there are some breeders breeding for a type/breed description that might not meet the approval/fit the goals of an overseas registry and jumping to the conclusion that any specific horses have not been "approved" by an overseas registry.

I would never imply the latter. Nor do I have any specific knowledge of whether there aren't breeders in France breeding the same type and having them registered, although apparently that type of horse has never set foot in Great Britain. I only know that this is not the "traditional" type, and as it has been said here that France holds a very traditionalist view of the breed type I can only assume they'd disapprove.

[Ghazzu]

The halter ring with Percherons always has a "whip." It isn't a question of need but what is done. I am not defending it, but it is what is done in the USA.

That the horse had a whip means nothing other than the owner was doing what is expected of him (in order to win) in the show ring.

In Canada, it is illegal to use a whip and the horses move just the same (only with less nervousness).

USING A WHIP IS STANDARD SHOW PRACTICES. In a rated show, you would score lower for not having a whip.

Well, the fact that a judge will ding a horse in a halter class for *not* having someone chase it around the ring certainly does nothing to enhance the crediblity of the association in question in my book...YMMV.

[slc2]

This is just how a lot of horses are shown in hand.

My take on it is that for a breeding stallion, it behaves very well in hand. For a breeding stallion to go to a show full of mares and foals and not be doing a whole lot more than this, that's docile. Very.

[egontoast]

So is that stallion supposed to be a dressage prospect or a sire of dressage prospects?

I forget what the point of this thread was but this IS the dressahge forum so I guess that stallion is supposed to have something to do with dressage??

[Roan]

. . . Could I have bred her to a nice TB? Sure, but why the hell shouldn't I try a Lip stallion instead -- particularly one as nice as the horse I chose? . . .

Because if you did the research on the Lipizzan breed, you'd *know* that that is not a good cross. We even talked about it on the Lipizzaner Yahoo Group -- last year or the year before, I believe.

Lips are HEAVY horses for their size. They are not "light". They are very densely boned and very strong. The taller the Lip gets, the more mass it has to move around and the more difficult it is for it to get off the ground. That's why most of the Airs stallions are 14.3hh in size. Anything bigger doesn't get off the ground as well.

How nice Bobbie is has little to do with this. I'd breed him to my mare in a heartbeat, but she's a Lip, too, and he would improve on her.

What you've done is added mass to mass and gotten . . . more mass.

But, hey, you may luck out and he may grow up and be pretty decent. That neck and throatlatch *will* be a problem, though. It's going to get thicker, not thinner, with age.

Eileen

[Thomas_1]

Ummmm, Not.
Horse is so hot that he needs to have a second person run behind him with a whip?
Sounds like a really quiet horse that needs significant "persuasion" to put on a bit of a show.

I'd not seen the video till you'd done the quote but

:eek::eek::eek:

Those who are vaguely interested in pure bred Percherons might want to know that over here THAT would be considered absolutely terrible.

From a showing perspective we'd consider that was showing a stallion at it's worst. We'd all be going :eek:

I get the impression though that we're more inclined to ride, drive and actually do decent and serious things out in public with stallions over here.

That means we want to show them as being fantastic conformation, true and natural movement, full of presence BUT well behaved and biddable. Basically here showing a stallion is your opportunity to show the public that your horse has fantastic type and temperament and natural ability to produce good stock fit for the intended purpose.

That video is defintely one I'd be in my category of "INTERESTING"

What I mean by that though is "Why the heck would anyone begin to think that could do dressage" . What is that weird front end movement??? Why the heck would anyone think that having a stallion dick-heading about and not even moving in a straight line was good!

To be fair though considering all the flappy sticks and flags and shocking handling it didn't really express a great deal of opinion.

With it's movement though, and everything else going on with shoeing (?) etc, I'm not imagining that particular stallion doing dressage at any level.

[slc2]

The handling has been like that for a very long time, as well as the shoeing. That just seems to be how draft showing is done in much of this country. I have no idea why. It definitely damages draft stallion owners in their effort to appeal to the sport market.

[draftxfan]

Because if you did the research on the Lipizzan breed, you'd *know* that that is not a good cross. We even talked about it on the Lipizzaner Yahoo Group -- last year or the year before, I believe.

I did do "the research," and I "know" no such thing. I think you must be using the royal "we" here, because a search of the Yahoo list (yes, I do subscribe to it) on the word "Percheron" yields nothing perceptibly negative save one comment made BY YOU a year ago in regard to this very COTH thread. One of the few references I found anywhere to a Lip x Perch cross was a mention in the summer 2004 edition of the USLR News of the then-editor's own, beloved part-Perch mare. The owner / manager of the stallion I bred my mare to had not seen this particular cross before and has never been anything less than encouraging and enthusiastic about the breeding or the resulting foal.

How nice Bobbie is has little to do with this. I'd breed him to my mare in a heartbeat, but she's a Lip, too, and he would improve on her.

I really don't understand your logic here. You seem to be suggesting that this stallion -- my colt's sire -- could and would improve on YOUR mare but not on mine? Because yours is a Lip and mine isn't? I wasn't aware that breeding was a zero-sum game. I'm afraid this assertion doesn't say much for your confidence in the genetic strength of your preferred breed. (Me, I was kind of hoping that the baby would get the best of both parents.)

But, hey, you may luck out and he may grow up and be pretty decent. That neck and throatlatch *will* be a problem, though. It's going to get thicker, not thinner, with age.

Did a Percheron bully steal your lunch money in second grade or something? Because that's the level you seem to be stuck having this "discussion" at. Why are YOU so offended by what I've chosen to breed FOR MYSELF? Why on earth should you even care, much less believe it's any of your concern? And please don't try to suggest that I fired the first shot, not when your initial comment was "It's been done before and the cross just . . . sucks."

[Carol Ames]

Agreed thathe Lips are non:yes: drafty; even the babies are able to get "off the ground;)" elevate the forehand and lower the hindquarters; this NOT just rearing but, raising the forehand in a balanced, controlled way the muscling andCNS are very different from a draft; the babies actually do levades and courbettes:cool: naturally, not just running and :no:jumping; while the draft in the video may be quite sweet and:yes: willing ; just LISTEN :eek:to the canter that sound is never heard at the SRS.:no: the collection and lightness are not there in the draft;nor, are they bred for it:no:

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

Percherons are meant to pull... Lipizanners are meant to push...

[grayarabpony]

Roan, the mare that draftxfan bred looks similar in type to the Lip stallion she was bred to. She's a Perch X, not a pure-bred pulling type of Percheron. Since the mare came from a line of riding Percherons (and Cottonwood Flame certainly was) and if she has talent for dressage, there is nothing wrong with trying this cross.

[Ambrey]

The handling has been like that for a very long time, as well as the shoeing. That just seems to be how draft showing is done in much of this country. I have no idea why. It definitely damages draft stallion owners in their effort to appeal to the sport market.

I believe that stallion's owners were competing for the hitch market, rather than the sport market. Which, as I said, wants hot horses with fast action.

Those competing for the sport market probably wouldn't be using scotch bottom shoes and trying to make him go around with his head in the air.

[Thomas_1]

Percherons are meant to pull... Lipizanners are meant to push...

There speaks a non driver. There is a school of thought that says that driving horses actually push into their collars.

But I know what you mean and it's semantics. ;)

[Shrunk "N" Da Wash]

There speaks a non driver. There is a school of thought that says that driving horses actually push into their collars.

But I know what you mean and it's semantics. ;)

Thnx ;) I don't drive but I understand that they are really pushing. All I'm saying is lipizanners push from behind, carrying themselves uphill, etc. And percherons well they don't exactly get much suspension.

[Thomas_1]

The handling has been like that for a very long time, as well as the shoeing. That just seems to be how draft showing is done in much of this country. I have no idea why. It definitely damages draft stallion owners in their effort to appeal to the sport market.

Very weird indeed! For sure it wouldn't appeal to any driver either.

No driver would want a horse goofing off and showing how it flaps about and gets all bouncy and sideways when something is waved at it or chasing it behind.

No driver would want a horse with all that silly height and no real forward motion to speak of.

Hey ho though, I'm sure someone loves it!

Incidentally Scotch bottoms are actually illegal over here. Part of animal welfare legislation. i.e. unless you mean this sort:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/funny/scotchbottoms.jpg

[Thomas_1]

Thnx ;) I don't drive but I understand that they are really pushing. All I'm saying is lipizanners push from behind, carrying themselves uphill, etc. And percherons well they don't exactly get much suspension.

Unless of course you weight it's feet and stick a flag up it's acoutrements ;)

(I do know what you meant though and I agree entirely)

[twofatponies]

I'd not seen the video till you'd done the quote but

:eek::eek::eek:

Those who are vaguely interested in pure bred Percherons might want to know that over here THAT would be considered absolutely terrible.

From a showing perspective we'd consider that was showing a stallion at it's worst. We'd all be going :eek:

I get the impression though that we're more inclined to ride, drive and actually do decent and serious things out in public with stallions over here.



Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGQmLJNxVi0&feature=related

;)

[Tamara in TN]

Ummmm, Not.
Horse is so hot that he needs to have a second person run behind him with a whip?
Sounds like a really quiet horse that needs significant "persuasion" to put on a bit of a show.


yes and what is that crazy leprechaun jump at 1:18?? :lol:

I also think the Windmere horses are quiet by nature but like most place they want to see BIG movement up front ignoring that paddling that they do...

they chase mares and babies at WB inspections why would draft stallion be any different??:)

best

[Tamara in TN]

Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGQmLJNxVi0&feature=related

;)

I think Thomas meant Percherons in specific...those are the Senior Welsh Cob Stallions....

and quite nice ;)

best

[Ambrey]

I think Thomas meant Percherons in specific...those are the Senior Welsh Cob Stallions....


Aren't cobs also driving horses?

Here's an amazing video of Windemere's driving horses:

http://www.windermerefarmspercherons.com/home.html

And no, I'm not a fan of the weird shoeing on any breed. The point was simply that different standards in the show world are driving different breeding here than one might see overseas.

[Ambrey]

they chase mares and babies at WB inspections why would draft stallion be any different??:)


It would be different if "quiet and docile" and ready to pull a plow was what was winning in the show arena ;)

[Tamara in TN]

It would be different if "quiet and docile" and ready to pull a plow was what was winning in the show arena ;)



well there ain't no hitch horses pulling many plows any more;) more just like a fine if not heavy harness class:)

[Ambrey]

well there ain't no hitch horses pulling many plows any more;) more just like a fine if not heavy harness class:)

Yes! Exactly my point.

It's my understanding that as the focus and popularity in the US went to larger teams, the breeding became focused on harness type rather than draft type (as each horse in a large team has a rather small share of the load).

And there are many harness type horses that are becoming popular for dressage. Dutch Harness, Cob, Irish Draught, Friesian. And Balagur is an Orlov Trotter, I believe they are a harness horse as well.

So the whole "push vs. pull" thing and "do what it's bred to do" thing is really a non-starter.

[Tamara in TN]

So the whole "push vs. pull" thing and "do what it's bred to do" thing is really a non-starter.



well here yes....

to compare and contrast our "hitch " percherons to what Thomas would see look here:

http://www.percheron.org.uk/breeders/henfrey/ note the lack of hock and big knee movement and the overall depth of the animals...niiiice and well able to plow if needed

and here the stallion (oddly enough named Thomas) is the premier type that we would have seen here before the second war...and I'd be proud to have him here...but he'd never win a dang thing here in the USA:
http://www.percheron.org.uk/breeders/stratton/

best

[Ambrey]

Those are some gorgeous great big horses!

I really like both types, for their respective strengths :) I am not fond of the docking and shoeing, though, and I've heard the Percheron show scene makes the drama of the hunter scene look like child's play.

But a lot of people who talk about Percherons don't seem to have ever had any interaction with the hitch-type, only the draft type.

[CatOnLap]

well, in terms of docile temperament, I don't know who forgot to do up what in this six horse hitch, but the lead pair, after they lost the rest of the hitch, cantered half a round, and then trotted back to their hitch where they were reconnected and continued to finish the competition without a problem. I didn't take the video, but I know the person who did. The other hitches were quiet and obedient. I've attended this particular fair many times- a huge indoor show and the hitches stand quietly with motorscooters, baby carriages, and crowds of spectators, etc streaming by them in the collecting area prior to entering the ring. I am always amazed no one gets trampled by those big feet but they are pretty steady.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uhID7H8THc

This second video is of a decent circensic trainer in Europe riding dressage on a perch. You can judge for yourself just how suitable they are. Yes, its amazing that this rather small percheron ( say 15.2) can get off the ground at all, but I really wouldn't call that suspension compared to what lips and other purpose bred dressage horses can do. Please note how forgiving the rider is to let the horse relax its throatlatch frequently so it can breathe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo5WGZwxRrI

you can search "Dressage Percheron" on the same site to discover another full percheron attempting dressage, posted by a poster on this thread.

[Roan]

I did do "the research," and I "know" no such thing. I think you must be using the royal "we" here, because a search of the Yahoo list (yes, I do subscribe to it) on the word "Percheron" yields nothing perceptibly negative save one comment made BY YOU a year ago in regard to this very COTH thread. One of the few references I found anywhere to a Lip x Perch cross was a mention in the summer 2004 edition of the USLR News of the then-editor's own, beloved part-Perch mare. The owner / manager of the stallion I bred my mare to had not seen this particular cross before and has never been anything less than encouraging and enthusiastic about the breeding or the resulting foal. . . .

Suggest you look a little harder for draft x and not just Perch. I'd like the reference for the negative comment made by me -- link it in.

As for draft x Lip, ask the list for their opinion.

Regardless, this thread is better off dead. So I'm going to excuse myself from posting.

Eileen

[goeslikestink]

Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGQmLJNxVi0&feature=related

;)

love the welshies

[goeslikestink]

Aren't cobs also driving horses?

Here's an amazing video of Windemere's driving horses:

http://www.windermerefarmspercherons.com/home.html

And no, I'm not a fan of the weird shoeing on any breed. The point was simply that different standards in the show world are driving different breeding here than one might see overseas.


if you talking welsh cobs then yes they are but they are also very versitle they can turn the hooves to anything

[goeslikestink]

well, in terms of docile temperament, I don't know who forgot to do up what in this six horse hitch, but the lead pair, after they lost the rest of the hitch, cantered half a round, and then trotted back to their hitch where they were reconnected and continued to finish the competition without a problem. I didn't take the video, but I know the person who did. The other hitches were quiet and obedient. I've attended this particular fair many times- a huge indoor show and the hitches stand quietly with motorscooters, baby carriages, and crowds of spectators, etc streaming by them in the collecting area prior to entering the ring. I am always amazed no one gets trampled by those big feet but they are pretty steady.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uhID7H8THc

This second video is of a decent circensic trainer in Europe riding dressage on a perch. You can judge for yourself just how suitable they are. Yes, its amazing that this rather small percheron ( say 15.2) can get off the ground at all, but I really wouldn't call that suspension compared to what lips and other purpose bred dressage horses can do. Please note how forgiving the rider is to let the horse relax its throatlatch frequently so it can breathe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo5WGZwxRrI

you can search "Dressage Percheron" on the same site to discover another full percheron attempting dressage, posted by a poster on this thread.


you gotta love that boys forlock - hes a charactor thats for sure

[bort84]

And there are many harness type horses that are becoming popular for dressage. Dutch Harness, Cob, Irish Draught, Friesian. And Balagur is an Orlov Trotter, I believe they are a harness horse as well.

But those horses are all finer than most draft horses bred to pull. Those horses were mostly bred to be sturdy (but lighter than drafts) harness horses or to be harness horses that could also do work around the farm or to be all of those things and a nice hack - not exactly the same as a draft horse bred to do heavy pulling work. Comparing a Dutch Harness Horse, Fresian, etc to a Percheron type horse is not quite as much apples to oranges as a Lip to Perch, but it's still a reach. Horses bred for harness are not the same as horses bred to pull, though both do wear a harness of sorts = ) and many bred to pull are also quite lovely in front of a cart/carriage/etc.

I'd say all of the breeds you mentioned are a more suited to dressage than most Percherons, Clydesdales, etc. I have seen some lovely draft crosses though. Just ran into one at a clinic that was a TB/Belgian (50/50 I believe), and he looked like a gorgeous baroque type, probably the most like a Lusitano. I'm pretty sure she shows him at PSG and he schooled some lovely two-tempis. The only kind of drafty thing on him was his head = ) Though I'm not sure that is really an argument for pure drafts in dressage above the lower levels.

[MistyBlue]

Well, if we're talking hitch/harness Percherons I've always enjoyed watching Jason's team...Texas Thunder:
http://www.priefertpercherons.com/
But nah, they're not docile (easy to train, not dead on their hooves)...everyone wants a hot hitch horse to roman ride an entire team around on, gallop a 6 horse hitch of probably over 12,000 lbs around on, spin the top on or have someone leap over it with a dirt bike. :winkgrin:
Now that's entertainment. :yes: :D And that's docile animated animals without being hot. (watch their video or look for the Priefert Hitch on youtube)

CatOnLap...that dressage rider...love his cutom dressage coat.
Handsome horse, it matches the coat.

ETA...I am liking those uber-cute Clyde ponies on the Windemere website though. *Way* cute!

[twofatponies]

Well, if we're talking hitch/harness Percherons I've always enjoyed watching Jason's team...Texas Thunder:
http://www.priefertpercherons.com/
But nah, they're not docile (easy to train, not dead on their hooves)...everyone wants a hot hitch horse to roman ride an entire team around on, gallop a 6 horse hitch of probably over 12,000 lbs around on, spin the top on or have someone leap over it with a dirt bike. :winkgrin:
Now that's entertainment. :yes: :D And that's docile animated animals without being hot. (watch their video or look for the Priefert Hitch on youtube)

CatOnLap...that dressage rider...love his cutom dressage coat.
Handsome horse, it matches the coat.

I love that team, too! Excellent.

[grayarabpony]

Suggest you look a little harder for draft x and not just Perch. I'd like the reference for the negative comment made by me -- link it in.

As for draft x Lip, ask the list for their opinion.

Regardless, this thread is better off dead. So I'm going to excuse myself from posting.

Eileen

Here's the link to you Eileen: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lipizzaner/message/13075

I couldn't find the discussion re: draft crosses either.

ANYWAY, draftxfan's mare is a TB/Percheron cross, not a purebred Percheron used for pulling. And in fact the mare's Percheron grandfather did do Grand Prix dressage. Unusual for a Percheron -- absolutely. But not only did that stallion compete successfully at Grand Prix, he's sired some really nice horses too.

[Ambrey]

But those horses are all finer than most draft horses bred to pull.

The discussion was about the fact that the breeding direction of Percheron in the US is away from draft type and toward a medium weight harness horse. You can't reply to the comment without reading Tamara's post that it was in response to.

[Couture TB]

Posted in the old closed thread, this post:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=3365494&postcount=559



Lipizzaners in the Percheron bloodline? Please cite a reference for that. Lipizzaners are descended from Spanish, Barb, Berber and Karst horses. I don't see any of that in the Percheron history files I've read.

You cannot compare a Lipizzaner with a draft horse. The SRS has spent over 450 years of selective breeding and produced a very strong, small horse that can easily do extreme collection and Airs Above the Ground.

I suggest you read the following:

http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/Conformation-Dressage.pdf

And note the points made about the Lipizzaner's build and must of the same would hold true for any Baroque breed of horse.

Yes, Lipizzaners have big feet and have big bones, they are also *extremely* strong and flexible. If they weren't they wouldn't be able to get off the ground.

If you have to correlate Lipizzaner to another equine, then think of them as big, white ponies -- that's how most Lip owners refer to their horses.

Eileen, Owner of a Big, White Pony

Actually this is what the thread/discussion was/is about. Percheron vs Lipizzaner for dressage.

[Ambrey]

How can people discuss that in good faith if they don't know the type of Percherons that are being bred in the US right now? I would think anyone with genuine interest would have done some research, or at least listened to what the enthusiasts and breeders on the thread were saying.

[CatOnLap]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmvDasFJmfY&feature=related
speaking of lippizans- well, the horse in the above video isn't exactly a Lippizan, but he's white like one! In fact he's not exactly a horse, but posting ponies in horse threads ought to be allowed, right? I mean you can call horses ponies, so why not the reverse? The horse...err...lippypony does a passable spanish walk and many sort of levades and for you au naturel folks, it's all done without a saddle and bridle...by a 3 year old girl. Much cuteness!

[egontoast]

Thomas, come over here, find the hitchiest bred Perch you can find, work with it for a couple of years and come back to me

Come back to YOU?

Delusions of grandeur, maybe?

[Ambrey]

Come back to YOU?

Delusions of grandeur, maybe?

Hmmm, he's finally admitted that the hitch Percherons that are being here are nothing like what he works with there, so maybe not.

[Roan]

Here's the link to you Eileen: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lipizzaner/message/13075

ROFL! You must be kidding, right? That thread is: "Lipizzaners, Riding and Carriage -- Bred Separately?" and it had to with a statement Thomas made that there were not two types of Lipizzans. Which there are.

You should read that entire thread. Pretty interesting.

My "derogatory comment" in that particular message was that someone had the audacity to post that Lipizzaners and Percherons were similarly built -- I still find that statement ludicrous. The comment has nothing to do with Lip x Perch crosses or anything of that nature.

I couldn't find the discussion re: draft crosses either.

I will ask them.

Eileen

ETA: and so I have asked. If the consensus is that draft/Lip crosses are kosher, then I will retract my statement. Regardless of what everyone there says, however, it will prove to be a great conversation :)

[draftxfan]

Eileen, like grayarabpony, I did a search on the word "draft" on the Yahoo list and once again came up with very little -- no sign at all of the firestorm you hinted at.

What I did find, though, was your earliest posts on the list, from January 2007, when you first joined the group (incidentally, a month after I joined). You were new to the breed and new to the discipline of dressage, having taken lessons for (you said) just the previous six months. I was struck, in reading through some of the many "newbie" threads you started, by how uniformly welcoming and helpful the Lipizzan community -- at least as represented on that list -- was toward you. Would that some of that goodwill had rubbed off on you.

[goeslikestink]

who said that-----



Thomas, come over here, find the hitchiest bred Perch you can find, work with it for a couple of years and come back to me

this made me giggle--

[Carolinadreamin']

At what point, though, does conformation come into play? I know the han/tb that I once rode could never go around like the QH I had and vice versa. Physically, the way each breed was designed and built, it was impossible.

[Roan]

. . .

What I did find, though, was your earliest posts on the list, from January 2007, when you first joined the group (incidentally, a month after I joined). You were new to the breed and new to the discipline of dressage, having taken lessons for (you said) just the previous six months. I was struck, in reading through some of the many "newbie" threads you started, by how uniformly welcoming and helpful the Lipizzan community -- at least as represented on that list -- was toward you. Would that some of that goodwill had rubbed off on you.

And they are still welcoming and helpful, as I am to them and to other newbies who join the list. We also spell it out like it is and don't hold our punches.

You think that if I posted a bad cross I was thinking of trying that they wouldn't jump down my throat and roast me? Of course they would and good for them. They should and I wouldn't be insulted if they did.

It's too bad you took my original post about breeding your mare as insulting.

Eileen

[Roan]

The discussion was about the fact that the breeding direction of Percheron in the US is away from draft type and toward a medium weight harness horse. You can't reply to the comment without reading Tamara's post that it was in response to.

Actually the thread is about how Lipizzaners are not built like Percherons and that you cannot compare the two.

Eileen

[bort84]

The discussion was about the fact that the breeding direction of Percheron in the US is away from draft type and toward a medium weight harness horse. You can't reply to the comment without reading Tamara's post that it was in response to.

I did read Tamara's post. In fact, I've read the entire thread, though I'm pretty sure neither is actually a requirement for me to comment on your post (just look at how off topic we tend to get on these things, haha). You were discussing how a flashier type of Percheron is becoming popular at US shows for harness and for in hand classes, leading to two "types." Then you followed that with the comment that a variety of harness type horses are becoming popular in dressage. So from your first statement to the next, it seemed as though you might have been putting the new style fancier percheron in the same class as the harness breeds you mentioned (as in, they're being bred lighter, and hey, these other "harness" types are becoming popular too and shown with some success, so why's the Percheron out of place?). I don't think that the showy percherons that have been used as an example look much more dressage oriented than the ones bred to pull logs. However, the other breeds you mentioned (DHH, cob, Fresian, Irish Draught, etc) are actually more suited to dressage than most Percherons. That was the point of my comment. I don't disagree at all that there are likely a couple of different types of Percherons being bred in the US.

I realize you were replying to the mini-tangent about the "new age" Percheron. However, by also discussing the popularity of other harness type breeds in dressage, you brought your post back into the broader topic (though still a bit of a tangent) of the Percheron compared to other horses in dressage. So perhaps your post just read a little bit less clearly than you thought. What point were you trying to make by mentioning the increased popularity of those other "harness" breeds in dressage? Was it not related to your feelings on Percherons in dressage? I have no hard feelings against drafts in dressage, but I just felt that a comparison between a Percheron and a DHH or cob was about as apples to oranges as a Perch to Lip comparison. Perhaps you did not intend to compare them at all, but they were both mentioned one right after another.

[Ambrey]

Actually the thread is about how Lipizzaners are not built like Percherons and that you cannot compare the two.


The sub discussion, however, was about how Percherons are built- how can you compare/contrast two things if you only have knowledge of one of them?

I find it interesting that you found the comparison so insulting to your breed of choice.

[Roan]

. . .
I find it interesting that you found the comparison so insulting to your breed of choice.

Now this boggles me.

Why *wouldn't* a Lipizzan aficionado be insulted by this comparison? It's like someone going out and buying a Peterbuilt and telling a Ferrari owner that they are very similar in build. How about someone insisting that their overseas manufactured dressage saddle was the same as your Schleese? Wouldn't that wrinkle your nose a bit?

If you were comparing an Andi or Lusi to a Lip, at least there is common ground for it. They DO have similarities.

I have nothing against Percherons. I have nothing against them being used for dressage or whatever the hey-ho you wanna use them for. I wouldn't mind having one, actually. They're nice horses.

What I have is a bee in my bonnet that someone would compare a Lip with a Perch.

Eileen

[grayarabpony]

Roan,

Once again, draftxfan's mare is not pure Percheron. What part of that do you not understand?

In any case, the colt's Percheron grandsire competed successfully in Grand Prix dressage. What part of that do you not understand?

There was no other way that your post regarding draftxfan's colt could be construed as anything but insulting.

Why don't you post a link to the previous yahoo discussion that you've been alluding to?

[Ambrey]

Now this boggles me.

Why *wouldn't* a Lipizzan aficionado be insulted by this comparison? It's like someone going out and buying a Peterbuilt and telling a Ferrari owner that they are very similar in build. How about someone insisting that their overseas manufactured dressage saddle was the same as your Schleese? Wouldn't that wrinkle your nose a bit?

LOL, why would I if it was a brand I knew nothing about? Maybe it is as good as a Schleese. Lots of brands are. This is just one I have a little knowledge about, and I happen to like mine.

I certainly would not tell the person making the comparison that a) their comparison was ludicrous, or that b) it was like comparing a peterbuilt to a ferrari, especially if we were talking about using them for the same thing.

[bort84]

The sub discussion, however, was about how Percherons are built- how can you compare/contrast two things if you only have knowledge of one of them?

I find it interesting that you found the comparison so insulting to your breed of choice.

Well, if you're referring to the comparison of Lip to Perch, are you really that surprised? I grew up riding saddle seat, and if someone had come up to me and told me my beloved ASBs reminded them of QHs (who are bred for completely different disciplines, similar to the Lip vs. Perch), I may have been slightly put out, though mostly, I would have been confused as to what the similarities were... I suppose there may be a few more similarities between a Perch and a Lip than an ASB to QH, but I'm not sure... I guess if you looked at them from far away, the outline may be a bit more similar, but still.

If the original post was intended to open up a polite and thoughtful discussion, that's great, I have learned a lot of interesting things from this thread. But it should also have been pretty clear that comparing the original dressage horse to the original engine for machinery (and I mean that in the very best way) may have opened up a small can of worms = )

Also @ Roan: To be fair, your post about draftx's foal was a bit insulting. Her baby is very cute and will likely be perfect for what she wants. I'd guess she did research the cross and found that the mix was what she wanted. She never said he was likely to be GP like his grandsire or that she wanted him to be, though, it could happen = )

[Couture TB]

When seeking for a dressage horse (as this is in the dressage forum not driving)
Which out of these horses would you choose? All of them have come up in the discussion of Percheron vs Lip

Horse 1 http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1447817&share_this=Y

Horse 2 http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1217410&share_this=Y

Horse 3 http://www.ilovefriesians.com/paris.shtml

Horse 4 http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-170720

Horse 3 and 4 are Lip x drafts though not Percheron because I could not find a picture of one.

To me only horse 2 says I have potential for the upper levels. But that is just my opinon

[slc2]

There is a Percheron-Lipizanner on the dreamhorse site. Big as a house.

Of the four above, the purebred percheron stallion in the pelham, of course!

[draftxfan]

grayarabpony and bort84, in the interest of full disclosure, I've got to point out that my colt's maternal grandsire (Portmanteau) is still at I-1; it was that horse's sire -- Igby's maternal great-grandsire Cottonwood Flame -- who competed at Grand Prix. Nice genes!:)

[AnotherRound]

A lot of Percherons don't look that drafty to me (not over 50%, but a lot :)), especially in their movement. It would be interesting to do the analysis from the site STF posted on the dead thread and see how the lipps and percherons differ. I suspect the bone structure in the rear would be quite different.

I do love lippizaners. If I *had* to get a non-draft breed, it would definitely be a baroque.

Most Percherons and Percheron crosses, including yours, especially yours, Ambry, look drafty to me, in the throat latch, so thick and the short neck, especially. Even Lewin's purebred Percheron, very thick in the neck. There's a wide part to the back, in your horse, Ambrey, and a unfortunate neck and throat latch that is very drafty. Then when I watch the videos you and Lewin have both posted, the movement looks drafty. He just doesn't move out from the shoulder and use his back like other horses. But then, this, really is a thread about lippizaners and Percherons, so it doesn't include you. Yes, your horse does look drafty, but crossing a percheron and a lizzpizanner isn't what you got, now, is it.

[edit]

[lewin]

Is there any video of the Percheron learning to piaffe which shows this?

Yes, but out of respect to the clinician and because she is still very green it is not online. The mare has had 5 short ground sessions and the rest of the work has been done under saddle. When she gets it she really gets it; but she could use more height in the steps and the transition out needs cleaning up. She will walk or canter out but trotting out is about 50/50. And sometimes when I ask for more sit I get levade instead. A lot of this is my fault as I am learning the piaffe at the same time and the first two attempts I usually have my reins and her frame too long. I am learning that lots of half-halts right before gets me a nicer piaffe, but if I overdo it instead I get canter-on-the-spot. I am trying to get the clinician back so he can touch it up, give me some pointers, and teach her passage.

AnotherRound, yes my horse has a thick neck; she is a Percheron! It is on the thin side for a percheron though. Justamere Showtime lines and sired by Willie's Pride. Highview Dragano and Valley Vista Knightime great-grandaughter. But she goes BTV like any other horse. The neck just means that you have to ride tactfully as she cannot be forced into a frame.

[mishmash]

Yee Haw, I love this thread.
Some Percherons are good, sometimes great at dressage.
Some Lippizaners are good, sometimes great at dressage.
Some warmbloods are good, sometimes great at dressage.
Some ______ (add your breed here) are good, etc, etc
You get the message.
Here are some video links to Perch crosses doing dressage. They are ridden by young riders, so no snark, please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ1G3sF_Big
GP freestyle, 70% Horse is Perch/TB cross

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUGmQYQ26M8&feature=channel_page
The Portmanteau (Perch/TB cross) mentioned in other posts

There are a lot more out there, folks.

[Ambrey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ1G3sF_Big
GP freestyle, 70% Horse is Perch/TB cross

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUGmQYQ26M8&feature=channel_page
The Portmanteau (Perch/TB cross) mentioned in other posts

There are a lot more out there, folks.

Gorgeous! THanks for sharing!

[Beasmom]

Very attractive horses. I especially liked the first one -- personal preference, JMO. A somewhat lighter horse.

When crossed with a LIGHTER breed like the TB, the odds of getting a very nice horse are improved. As with any breeding, there is no guarantee.

The original intent of this strange thread, I thought, was trying to draw comparisons between Percherons and Lippizans. Not crossbreds. And the original intent was absurd, anyway.

Checking out.

[MistyBlue]

First video...awesome freestyle music. I'm a *huge* Queen fan. :yes:
Big grins on the opening use of Killer Queen. :D