TRAIL WARNING! Singing Woods/Clifton, VA

[Liberty]

The following warning was posted on the VAHorses email list group:

*****
"A friend was riding on the Singing Woods trails today and someone had
strung barbed wire across the trail. She didn't see it until it was too
late and the horse got tangled up in it. Fortunately after a few
frantic moments the horse realized he was caught and stopped trying to
pull away. Still, he spent 3 hours with the vet putting a leg back
together.

She thinks they were probably trying to stop the dirt bikes, not
horses. We need to get the word out to anyone using that trail to go
slow and watch for wire."
*****

Egads! :( :mad:

[CanterQueen]

OMG!! Just yesterday I had guys in the back of my acreage removing three downed trees and they pointed to barbed wire across the creek. This is barbed wire I've not seen before (but wasn't really looking for it either). Hubby is going to go out and remove what he can. We are on Wolf Run Creek at Clifton Rd. close to Swift Run trails.

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!!!!!!

[LexInVA]

It would probably be a good idea for someone to go through the trail on foot this weekend and comb for any other nasty surprises.

[jazzrider]

Does NHS know? I would think they'd be on top of it. If those were my trails, I'd take my dogs for a walk with a pair of wire cutters. :mad:

We used to ride the power lines over by the Manassas Battlefieds, near our old boarding barn. A new development came in, and people started stringing fishing line across the trail! :mad::mad: Absolutely unbelievable. Some people just don't deserve access to air. :no:

[CanterQueen]

Does NHS know?

Do you mean Nokesville Horse Society??

[jazzrider]

Yes. Don't they maintain those trails (sort of like BES and the Manassas Battlefields)? Or is it a less formal thing...?

[Mersy]

You know the person(s) who do this are liable for damages. Even if they are trying to protect private property, in which case you have to post no tresspassing signs and make your trail blockage VISABLE.
Here in Alaska we have had ATVers killed by strung cables and wires across trails.
I personally have had my horse in barb wire that was on old homestead property (horse ended up with 12 or so stitches in each leg). If the land looks as though it was once a pasture or a farm I make a point to look for old fence lines before proceeding.

[CanterQueen]

These trails generally run along power lines and easements in and around subdivisions. Some trails do require crossing/riding on private property. As a poster on a different board commented, the McMansions come in and stake their claim on their little 5-acre "estate" and they aren't happy about seeing horses riding anywhere near their little piece of heaven.

I have a 1984 Clifton Horse Society map of the trails -- and boy, they have dwindled down to nothing since then.

I will contact NHS -- but I don't think these trails are maintained by anyone other than the power company. Hubby and I trim trees as we ride, and we haven't seen any barbed wire on the trail YET. I think we need to get out there on foot and see what we can see. IF it is a homeower, we may be in for a nasty battle -- me thinks they have the possibility of doing a lot of damage with their barbed wire if they're persistant. Sad. Very Sad.

[Mersy]

Your local city, borough or county should have a division for easements. Depending on how the local law is in that area it is usually illegal to block right of way easements (and some others). An official in your local government can be contacted to address it.

I wish horse people realized how important it is to stay active in retaining trail systems, pretty soon trails will be a thing of the past. This is a increasing issue in all states.

[LexInVA]

Perhaps we should get a group together and comb the trails periodically. I'm right up the road from Clifton so I can certainly help out.

[CanterQueen]

LexInVA: Count me in!! Since Mr. CQ and I are new to the area, it would be fun to meet "locals" as well. I'd love to explore some new trails in this area too. My schedule is open and I can trailer out. PM me if anyone is REALLY interested. :yes:

[LexInVA]

If we can get at least six or seven people, I think we could make a decent sweep in one pass and periodically repeat that every so often. Would be good exercise at the least.

[jazzrider]

I've never been on the Clifton trails. If you guys organize it, hubby and I will come with horses (or the dogs if we need to walk it) and help out. We're out of town after this weekend until August though...

[marta]

i came across a bailing twine stretched between two trees about a foot and a half above the ground. that was scary.
then another time i was riding the bed of a creek and nearly got decapitated by a barbed wire stretched across the creek!!!!:o someone told me that farmers do that to prevent cattle from wondering down the bed of the creek...???

[eventmom]

So I read this thread. Then last night our trainer comes to give my kid a lesson. She proceeds to tell me that SHE was out on the singing woods trail with another student. And they ran into barbed wire! They are the ones this happened to!!! The poor horse should be fine as long as infection does not set in within 72 hours. Yes he is on antibiotics. She said if he had less sense about himself, he would be dead:eek: Really scarey. The student got hurt too, but not as bad. He got totally caught up in the wire at first, but when he realized he was trapped, likily, he calmed down and let her help him.
He is the nicest horse you would ever want to meet. I told her to call the cops for sure.

[CanterQueen]

Eventmom,

If they think it was a malicious deed, did they call the police and report it? I sure do hope so. At the very least it will start some history if this happens again.

[eventmom]

No, I don't think she did report it. But we told her to do so today! I think she is a bit discouraged with the police around here because about a month ago she was out trail riding with a different student, they were attacked by dogs! The owners just stood and watched! Then they ran away ofcourse after my friend got dumped. Luckily nobody was hurt, however she was riding a baby and the poor thing was scared to death! Anyway, the police did nothing! They said they could not find them.

[joe21]

No, I don't think she did report it. But we told her to do so today! I think she is a bit discouraged with the police around here

<snip>

Anyway, the police did nothing! They said they could not find them.

The reality is that the police will not start a "CSI" level investigation unless/until someone gets seriously injured. Sad, but true.

The first thing that ran through my mind in reading this thread was "is anyone reporting this to the authorities?" Whether the local police, state police, park ranger... you should ALWAYS insist they file a formal report on things like this. If enough people complain, they will be forced to do something about it BEFORE someone gets seriously injured.

You may still be discouraged, but we need to be "on record." Make them come out and see the barbed wire (and remove it).

[LexInVA]

We could always walk the trails randomly and see if we can catch anyone in the act. Apart from that or sitting around where they are known to put wire and other traps, I can't really think of anything overly proactive that can be done.

[wateryglen]

I doubt seriously that the riders are actually riding on "easements" in that area. Every piece of land belongs to somebody so you need to find out who actually owns the land the wire is up on and go talk to them and get proper permission with whatever restrictions they may have. Wire is a big message and takes a lot of effort to put up so they definitely don't want someone to trespass there. There must be a story behind it or a reason it was put up. It's YOUR responsibility to find out and get permissions.

As a landowner and trailrider myself, I find a lot of riders have a sense of "entitlement" about riding on what they THINK are "easements" or open land. Just because it's open or near park trails doesn't mean it's ok to ride there. The landowners in the Clifton area are paying an arm & a leg for that land and have a right to do whatever they want to with it. I doubt you'll get anywhere with the "authorities". Do you KNOW who the landowners are on the land you ride on? Or do you assume that if there's a trail there; you get to ride on it? Not necessarily true! Don't assume that just becaused everybody else rides there that you do to!! But I think it should be posted; then we riders need to read & heed. You may be pleasantly surprised that the landowner may in fact not want the ATV people to trespass but are fine with the horses. Or they may not want OTHER riders to trespass but WILL let you because you asked!!

Don't get indignant - get proactive and ask. You can go to the county land records to find out who the landowners are....I did.

[joe21]

wateryglen, you make some excellent points. My comments about reporting to the authorities were based on the original comment: "A friend was riding on the Singing Woods trails today and someone had strung barbed wire across the trail." I don't know the area personally, but the comment led me to believe that "Singing Woods Trails" was a publicly accessible trail.

Trespassing is wrong, and ignorance is no excuse. You are right there. However, two wrongs do not make a right (but three lefts do). Landowners do not have a "right to do whatever they want" They cannot set up hidden traps designed to harm or kill people any more than they can sit in their yard and shoot as riders that cross their property line. Yes, homeowners also get frustrated with the authorities - it is much harder to catch the anonymous rider that is long gone when the cops arrive than it is to catch someone doing something on their own property. However, if they put up barbed wire or some other "trap" and someone gets killed, they are technically guilty of pre-meditated murder (whether a DA will push for that is another issue).

There is a civil way to handle these things. Just as it is the rider's responsibility to "get permission" and "not get indignant" it is also the landowners responsibility (morally and legally) to mark his border and post signs.

In fact, if people are laying barbed wire traps (especially on easily accessible private property that is not marked as such) than I bet it would be VERY easy to involve the authorities to resolve the situation. If people are going through the trouble of setting potentially deadly traps on their land, I would NOT recommend ringing their doorbell, as a "friendly" conversation on the topic doesn't seem likely.

[CanterQueen]

I believe they are called dedicated trails and other than the power lines, are probably not easements -- worth checking into.

From a book about Clifton by Nan Netherton:
"Clifton and horses have always gone toghether like bees and honey because of the five acre zoning, the abundance of dedicated trails, and the rural ambiance."

I personally have a 1984 Clifton Horse Society map detailing all of the area trails. These trails (like my fence line in an RPA) have been here for many, many years and grandfathered in. Yes, some homeowners do come in and put fencing up, and some don't like/understand horses, but this is CLIFTON for God's sake.

[eventmom]

I have a phone call into a friend in the area, who has invested in knowing what our rights are out on the trail. I was waiting for her to get back to me before I spoke, however, I just don't want to let this one slide.
We actually do have the right to go through those peoples property on the trials. I don't understand all the ins and outs yet, and of course good manners is always in order. The thing is, many of these people buy and don't know the law. They do't realize we have the right of way. And if we keep giving in, we will loose it:(

[wateryglen]

Eventmom - I respectfully disagree. There is no "law" that gives you a right to trespass on trails on private land even with an easement designation. Easements are for the OTHER landowners; not for the general public unless the public is on their way to/from a landowner to visit or conduct business. When you buy land with an easement; it is in the neighboring landowners land title also regarding the limitations and rules. Enforcement is problematic and gets neighbors fighting all the time. Been there; done that. We sought legal advice and learned.

There an equestrian estates neighborhood nearby called Belview with an alledged 32 miles of riding trail easements in between the 10-15 acre farmettes. They have a landowners association and pay dues, maintains the trails and know beforehand that they will have this easement in use around their properties and it STILL gets fenced off, blocked, and landowners refuse trespass. There are ongoing lawsuits. Angry neighbors hating horseriders and each other.

I can not emphasize enough the need to communicate personally with all concerned landowners before trespassing. I had a situation recently where a landowner was mad that there was horsepoop on his driveway so he withdrew all riding priveleges from everybody. I went and talked with him and I only now have permission again but....I had to sign something in writing and there are provisions. That's his right! The landowner is GOD! and he's ALWAYS right!! Don't assume that because your friend has permission that you do to. A landowner can call the cops on anybody trespassing even if they are doing so with someone who has permission!!
You gotta do the legwork; it's really worth it. You become an ambassador for all of us trailriders when you do the right thing.

You have to be careful to not come off as a "snobby rich horseperson"!!!
Just my humble opinion!

[CanterQueen]

EventMom, please let us know what you find out. I'm VERY curious and will help out if you think I can do any good.

Wateryglen, I understand your point. This particular trail is a marked bridle path (signs and all) and runs around a subdivison. I'd like to hear from EventMom about our rights on the trails. Either way, I don't think it's legal to string barbed wire with the sole intent to catch persons or horses. I think it's very important as a community to address this.

[SmokenMirrors]

Your right, the easement is the property owners, not those of us who ride on it. I have asked all the land owners who's land I ride on if I could have permission to be there. I have also gone so far as to give one a certified letter stating that if I get hurt or my horse or if there is any bodily injury, I would not sue him. Another I do a favor and make sure all the fences are in good repair and nothing is down and if I do go through a gate, I shut and lock it after me. Each land owner knows who I am am, what my horse looks like, and the one or maybe two at the most other riders that may be with me and got their permission to have them there as well.

That is what started the whole argument with my neighbor across the street. He felt because the easement was for "everyone" he could be there with his 4 wheelers and when we said no that was our land to please get off, war broke out. So do go and ask, be nice, even take a bottle of wine and introduce yourself, something that will show you are genuine and there in good faith.

[Mersy]

Personally I don't have a problem with a property owner protecting his property, but he does need to post (signeage) that.

There are all kinds of easements...sectionline easements, right of way easements, dedicated trail easements, utility easements, etc. SOME are designed just for public access, some are NOT. Your local government will have a land management or parks and recreation division to decifer this.
Also, some areas of the country have what is called "traditional use or historical use" trails, and even though they may go on or near private property they are in some cases illegal to block.

If I go by what I have read about these last few years about trails, public legal access trails (including some parks), they are getting dangerously blocked by some individuals.

If you have a local Back Country Horseman of America chapter in your area you can find out more on what is going on.

I agree though, it is best to be proactive not defensive or offensive.

[Jaegermonster]

Some people just dont' understand what PRIVATE ROAD means. Or that an easement is only for the people that it is granted to. But it's not worth hurting a horse over it.

Anyway, I recently learned that we are having similar goings on down here in FL at some of the public lands that are equine accessible. I heard that the barbed wire, fishing line etc has been found at the Croom Trails.

Has anyone been spying on any hiking or biking boards to see what's what? I wonder if this is a coordinated effort to get us off the land, I know sometimes there are issues between hikers bikers and equestrians.

[LexInVA]

AFAIK, that trail isn't one of the ones that is popular with bikers. There could be small groups using it but I certainly don't know of any. I will look into it tomorrow though when I go pick up some new gear. Hikers generally stick to the northern trails but it wouldn't be hard to find out if they are using the trail.

[Everythingbutwings]

I'm rather sure the power line and gas line easements in Singing Woods for the most part are located on property belonging to the HOA of the development (we're not talking the enormous cross country power lines that are over near Shadowalk and behind Eventmom's). There are many subdivisions with dedicated trails and the agreement with Clifton Horse Society that CHS members can use all the trails that CHS helps to maintain.

Other than individuals (Mr. Wings has been known to spend a lot of time clearing out overgrowth) and CHS members, the utility company is responsible for maintaining access to the trails that run along their lines.

There are set backs from property lines in many places to allow riders access to main trails. We use one ourselves to get from Holly Forest to the Singing Woods trail. We cross Wolf Run Shoals Road, ride down Suburban Place and then up Woodglen Court to where it makes a sharp turn left. We go straight - you can see the access point on this Google Satellite image (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Singing+Woods,+Fairfax+Station,+VA&ie=UTF8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ll=38.767302,-77.344539&spn=0.001903,0.003251&t=h&z=18) with the Singing Woods trail running diagonally across the upper left corner.

English Hills, Cathedral Forest, Singing Woods, Holly Forest, Shadowalk, Rondeley and many other developments all have dedicated bridle paths with shared use among the developments. It's an interconnected network of trails that makes the Clifton/Fairfax Station area so popular with equestrian residents. The trails are well marked "Bridle Path - No Motorized Vehicles" and it is against HOA regulations to block the trails.

[coloredhorse]

Everythingbutwings is correct. I used to keep my horses at a friend's place in Clifton. The trails do technically belong to the individual property owners; however, the HOA bylaws all state very clearly that the trails are an easement for use by all HOA members and guests. Individual property owners are responsible for maintaining "their" section of trail. (Though my experience was that the HOAs would organize work days and everyone would traipse out to the trails and do one or two big cleanups a year.)

With the influx of non-horse people into many of these neighborhoods, however, there has been an increase in "bad blood" both within and between different HOAs and trail systems. The one I rode in, at the time I moved, was considering limiting use of their trails to only HOA members, not allowing riders from adjoining neighborhoods/HOAs to use them. The times, they are a'changing, and not for the friendlier!

The Clifton Horse Society (CHS), rather than the Nokesville group, would be the most likely horse organization to be involved in helping in this sort of situation.

[J Swan]

I think y'all have figured out that you need to know exactly where you can and cannot ride - but I'd like to comment on the notion that the barbed wire is intended as a "trap".

A landowner cannot put booby traps on his land - for any reason. However, the landowner can put up a fence - and barbed wire is a lawful fence. If a person is injured while trespassing that is not premeditated murder. ;)

IF a landowner is attempting to keep trespassers out by setting a fence line designed to injure trespassers - that is something the police must investigate - as it is not a lawful fence. A lawful fence is that which keeps their animals in and other people/animals out.

Putting barbed wire or other types of fence down into creekbeds is a lawful fence; as it is designed to keep livestock in but permit the passage of water. Since other landowners have the right to uninterrupted flow of that body - a landowner is not permitted to divert it or stop it up. A regular fence built into the creek would eventually dam the creek.

The landowner is responsible for the fenceline he/she installs; so if that barbed wire is not considered a lawful fence - a fence that is designed to mark property lines and is visible and intended to keep out trespassers and keep animals in - the police do need to be involved.

If, for example, a person sets a single strand of wire low enough to step over, or high enough to clothesline a trespasser - that could very likely be considered setting a trap to injure or maim. No such strand of wire would keep any animal in or trespasser out - but it could be responsible for tripping people, or causing lacerations to the neck of a person or animal; especially if the wire is set along a trail - obviously used.

Years ago we had this problem at Pohick Bay Regional Park; but it wasn't because people were trespassing on private land. It was because surrounding owners were tired of people on ATV's sneaking onto the parkland from the road - so they strung bundles of wire and scattered nails along trailheads.

No matter how you looked at that - it was wrong as it was intended to injure people or damage property.

Anyway - hope you get law enforcement involved - if nothing else to determine if there is a landowner who is rightfully upset at trespassers - but handling it inappropriately.

For maps - you can get GIS maps from the Fairfax County website - the maps will show layers. You can get property lines, easements, types of easement, contour lines, hydrology, etc. That may help y'all figure out exactly where the trails are and where the property lines are.

[CatOnLap]

its the same all over.

Here though most of our trails are on municipal rights of way that would otherwise be roads, so most homeowners do not mess with them. One particular crabby landowner fenced off the trail running behind his pasture a long while back. As horse owners, we went and spoke with him- he refused to take the (barbwire)fence down, as the trail crossed between two of his holdings and he wanted to make it easier for his cows to graze on both sides of the road allowance ( trail). We called the municipality and they said just to cut the fence. We weren't going to do that, so they came out one day and restored the trail access ( about 4 months into the saga) Home owner replaced it the next day, using the fence posts they'd left up. That happened a couple of more times until one day they were greeted by the homeowner, RIFLE IN HAND! The workers came back with the police, who arrested the homeowner for uttering threats. The workers removed all the fence posts and materials that were on public right of way. The trail ( which connects one prominent riding area with another) has remained open since.

[yellow-horse]

can the folks along this trail/easement start some sort of trail association, have rules for riding, maybe buy group insurance and then approach the land owners along the way and offer to maintain the trails on their property for rights to ride there?
when i lived in nj amwell valley trail association did that sort of thing, we had trail badges, we had a newletter that let folks know if someone was reseeding or marking their trails off limits for a time, we had 2 annual picnics, we paid dues for our insurnce, we had trail cleaning days and we had landowner appreciation days, also ran a scholorship for a landowners kid, we had trail rules
there are several trail associations that you could probably ask how they set it up, i think as the suburbs move into farmland, this is one way to keep the peace
where i ride in the middle of nowhere virginia, i've asked folks if i can ride on their property, the problem is there's so much wooded land and no house it's hard to figure out who to ask sometimes

[Everythingbutwings]

It's called the CLIFTON HORSE SOCIETY and CHS works very hard to keep the non-equestrian residents of the many various communities horse friendly. :)

Learn about the History of CHS. The Clifton Horse Society was formed in January 1977, by a small group of horse owners in the Clifton area who felt that their equestrian experiences would be enhanced by the coordination and cohesiveness of a club; a club with a substantial membership to draw upon financially, physically and mentally that would be able to offer educational clinics, put on competitive activities, sponsor deserving individuals or groups needing money to increase their abilities or services, have trail rides, encourage the development of a trail system, work with landowners and county and park officials to promote good relations between riders and those whose goodwill is essential to riders, and generally have a great time enjoying their horses and each other.

The original group wrote up a prospectus and stuffed it in mailboxes all over the Clifton area, and then reserved the Clifton Fire Hall for a meeting for March 1977, holding their breath to see if anyone would show up. To everyone's relief and delight, over ninety people came to the first meeting, and the Clifton Horse Society was born.

The idea caught on like a house afire and the club has never slowed down. It immediately began publishing a newsletter, originally called Hoofbeats and later changed to Lead Line after a contest to choose a name.

Among our original members we discovered that no one equestrian discipline dominated. The club had trail riders, dressage enthusiasts, hunter/jumper showers, fox hunters, saddle seat riders, civil war re-enactors, parade riders, combined training buffs, and even more. It was decided that variety was the spice of life and that CHS would actively encourage its members to venture outside their own particular disciplines to try other forms of equestrian life. Eventually, of this philosophy was born the Proteus Award, given each year to the horse and rider team demonstrating the most versatility.

Since 1977 there have been clinics, competitive rides, Ride and Ties, horse shows, barn dances, dinner dances, trail rides, farm tours, picnics, gymkhanas, knowdowns, trips to the races, cocktail parties, monthly board meetings, pony rides at Clifton Day, parades, trip to the Washington International Horse Show, auctions, hay rides, Christmas caroling, and scholarships. Plus CHS has helped to establish a viable trail system all over the Clifton area and has cooperated in saving and producing trails in our local parks and developments, and even influenced horse-oriented legislation.

In accomplishing these phenomenal goals, CHS has enjoyed the support of neighborhood tack shops, veterinarians, farriers, local park authorities, various county officials and offices, but mostly CHS has been successful because of the real interest and support of its members. Some members join CHS mainly to receive the Lead Line, and that is fine; but hopefully, once they get a foot in the door, CHS, we hope, will lure them out to join in its activities and eventually contribute to produce those activities for the better enjoyment of all.

It's a funny thing, but very true, that the more you join in, the more fun you have in CHS, and the more you learn and progress as an equestrian. Every year CHS produces a whole new year of exciting events and projects. Don't just read about them. Come out and join in the fun.

[CanterQueen]

Has anyone contacted/notified CHS about this? I'm a member and will send out an email -- but I wanted to see if someone has already done that?? Thanks!!

[Everythingbutwings]

I'm going to ask Trixie to hack around Singing Woods with a pair of wire cutters and leather gloves in the pocket of her saddle pad. I'm wondering just where on the trail that horse got caught up in the wire and if it was truly strung on purpose.

There is a section of the trail that goes between the homes on Tempo Lane and the farm fields in the middle upper right of this map (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=clifton,+VA&ie=UTF8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ll=38.771869,-77.33815&spn=0.007127,0.013132&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr) where you are still riding in the woods but there is a long section at the edge of the woods of old field fencing in disrepair. We cross Wolf Run Shoals and onto the Singing Woods Trail where the lower "610" is located. You can see the trail to the left, it goes straight (and very boggy) to the house you can see in the lower middle, then the trail turns and goes almost straight north through the woods. From there it runs along the above mentioned fields and I wonder if, just perhaps, a tree may have fallen on the old fencing and caused some of the wire to spring loose and lay in the trail.

Just wondering. I'd really rather have that occur than there be bad relations with the residents to the point of them deliberately blocking the trail.

[joe21]

I think y'all have figured out that you need to know exactly where you can and cannot ride - but I'd like to comment on the notion that the barbed wire is intended as a "trap".

A landowner cannot put booby traps on his land - for any reason. However, the landowner can put up a fence - and barbed wire is a lawful fence. If a person is injured while trespassing that is not premeditated murder. ;)

Since I mentioned "trap"...

The OP noted "barbed wire across the trail." This does not sound like a fence to me. It sounds like a trap set up to hurt people/animals using a trail.

We are in agreement that a landowner can place a fence, but not a trap. Even if you set a "trap" or otherwise dangerous situation inside your own non-fenced property, you create liability for yourself (thus, the rules that if you have a swimming pool you must fence it in).

My premeditated murder comment was off-the-cuff, but it is technically true (I noted that a DA would be unlikely to prosecute as such). If you set a trap designed to hurt/kill and someone gets killed, it is murder. The fact that you did so with the intent to hurt/kill makes it pre-meditated.

You (and others) are 100% correct that riders bear the responsibility of knowing what lands they are on, who owns them and if they are permitted there.

On the other hand, landowners have some responsibilities as well. If their land is not fenced (or even marked) they do have the responsibility to make sure their land is not hazardous to others. Aside from the moral and ethical considerations (not to mention common courtesy) if you ride across someone's easily accessible land and get torn up by some hard to see barbed wire (placed intentionally or not), you have the makings of a lucrative lawsuit. Things like that keep the "1-800-lawyer" folks in business.

Liability concerns are actually a big reason why people don't want to grant riders access across their land. This has been a major issue in my area with traditional "right of way" agreements. Homeowners are no longer allowing riders passage through trails on their land because they are afraid of being sued - even with signed agreements.

Land owners also have the responsibility to research what is going on in the adjacent property before buying. Have a problem with horses/riders? Don't buy property next to a barn or trail system.

Homeowners have to learn to deal with nearby horses legally riding on trails. Riders have to learn to deal with formerly accessible land going private and inaccessible. Very often these things can be worked out, especially when a rider's organization gets involved to mediate.

The suggestion of speaking with the landowner in a courteous and civil manner is excellent. HOWEVER, if you are dealing with someone that you suspect had intentionally strung barbed wire across the trail or built some other type of trap, I would recommend going to the authorities instead. Someone who would do that has already proven themselves to be dangerous. Why risk a potentially dangerous personal confrontation by knocking on their door?

[wateryglen]

Why risk it? Because I firmly believe that the best way to solve a problem like this is face-to-face, in a positive manner. Letters, calling, asking other to do it?....I think that if I come to a door with a gift in hand asking if I could have a moment of their time and I state my sincerity to respect their land & rights and was wondering if I might be able to work out a formal permission to trespass with whatever restrictions or requirements they might want to grant me?.....I just think it works better. Once you've called "the authorities" you've lost. You're asking someone else to fight your fight for you. Be a grownup and approach this for yourself!

I assume they are angry when I knock on the door so I must be friendly, calm, sincere and allow them to ventilate or explain. I don't think of it as personal confrontation nor dangerous. Bring a friend as a witness if you must. They need to know how serious you consider their rights and that you will respect whatever decision they make. Ask them to think about it. Separate yourself from the other riders or users who aren't respecting thier land if you must. Tell them how often you ride, what your horse looks like, how you ride, where you ride. You aren't getting permission for all the riders- only for yourself. It may eventually work out that they grant for all but start small. Find out exactly what their expectations are of you and make sure it matches what you want to do. No matter how this turns out; thank them for their time and for the stress this may have caused them. Tell them about yourself. Leave your name, address, phone # and ask them to call if they have any questions. Offer to give them a release of liability form (most states have some kind of standard form; I use the one that our local riding clubs & hunts use except I insert my name/their names etc) which landowners LOVE!

I had a conversation recently with a new landowner recently. His biggest concern was for MY safety during deer season when he's hunting! So we agreed to some restrictions about when/where I go during rifle season! No problemo! The rest of the time? Free access!

A lot of time; it's repeated trespassing that ticks off a landowner. They feel violated or disrespected. Their land is an extension of themselves IMHO. Once they meet you; RESPECT is restored. There's a REASON for the alledged booby traps- they aren't homocidal maniacs for cryin' out loud. Don't overdramatize this. They are human beings protecting their turf! That's all.

And finally...it's harder to deny a friend than a stranger.

[Everythingbutwings]

Except that it more than likely ISN'T their "turf" :no:

Not if it was strung across the dedicated bridle trail in Singing Woods. If it was a different path, through their property to access the dedicated trail, I'd follow your logic.

[Trixie]

There's a REASON for the alledged booby traps- they aren't homocidal maniacs for cryin' out loud. Don't overdramatize this. They are human beings protecting their turf! That's all.

Um, no. Sorry. Unless the barbed wire appeared on someone's private property where the trail access is not protected by easements (rare in Clifton), I would file it under homicidal maniacs, not "protecting their turf."

Of course, until we know where the barbed wire was strung, it's all speculation. Riders do need to know where they are and are not welcome - however, the area in general has an influx of folks who are new to the area and don't seem to realize that the easements are there and have been in place for decades. Communication and knowing the land and the law are key here. Stringing wire across a public-access trail is an extremely hostile act.

If it was across a power line or access to a power line, I'm sure the power company will have something to say about that also.

[CanterQueen]

Stringing wire across a public-access trail is an extremely hostile act.

If it was across a power line or access to a power line, I'm sure the power company will have something to say about that also.


Trixie, you are sooo right!!!!!!! ;)

[joe21]

A lot of time; it's repeated trespassing that ticks off a landowner. They feel violated or disrespected. Their land is an extension of themselves IMHO. Once they meet you; RESPECT is restored. There's a REASON for the alledged booby traps- they aren't homocidal maniacs for cryin' out loud. Don't overdramatize this. They are human beings protecting their turf! That's all.

And finally...it's harder to deny a friend than a stranger.

Again, I agree with your point. As to approaching the landowner, that is a matter of preference, and depends in the individual and situation. Barbed wire set up as a booby trap (as opposed to a fence) is a very hostile act of a individual with a problem. Sure, it is possible to defuse the situation in person. It is also possible to meet a ticked off person with a loaded rifle (as was mentioned in an earlier anecdote).

A barbed wire trap CAN seriously injure or kill someone. There is no drama in this - it is simple fact. For that reason, it is illegal (and immoral) to set deadly traps - even on your own property.

For the same reason, you cannot sit in your backyard with a rifle and shoot at people that happen to ride across your (unfenced) land. Saying "but I only meant to shoot them in the leg" isn't an excuse when you kill them. "I only meant to fire a warning shot" isn't an excuse when you hit them in the leg.

Someone setting such a trap can only fall into one of two categories: "homocidal" or "complete friggin' idiot." I am not sure I would waste my time trying to deal with either category. Just as your suggestions show a right way for riders to handle things, there is a right (morally and legally) for landowners to do things. A real fence, or even a "private property" sign is a good start. That's assuming this is indeed private property.

[Carol Ames]

It was my understanding that when that area first became developed that it was designated as an an"equestrian community;with a home owners having access to the trails;the entire community being connected by the trails;):yes:

The was also talk about an indoor arena to be available the community, was that "olivers'?

[foxhavenfarm]

Oh my gosh! All this talk about Clifton is bringing back childhood memories of foxhunting with Pohick Valley Hunt back in the early 80's. Used to ride the Manassas Battlefield trails too. Haven't been back to VA in 20 years, but I hope the trail situation gets worked out safely for you guys.

[wateryglen]

It is not "immoral" or "illegal" to set up deadly traps....etc. You can do a LOT on your own land that can endanger others and it's legal. Case in point.....Landowner where I boarded once allowed trapping on his land that he allowed riders on. My horse stepped into and got trapped in a wire snare trap. The trap was for groundhogs & foxes & whatnot. He wanted pelts or something. The more the horse pulled/struggled - the tighter the snare pulled. Thank god he's half draft and was calm enough to let me dismount & remove the snare which was quite difficult. They are made to only tighten not loosen. I called the Loudoun County Sheriffs dept and learned the following: Landowner had the right to trap and did not owe anyone a warning/a sign or even a courtesy telling to the barn folks. Removing or disturbing that snare brings a $500 fine and I was guilty. Even tho'' I had permission to trespass; the landowner was not liable for me or horsies injuries had there been any. Removing/disturbing anything of the landowners was illegal and I was finable (think wire "fence" here).
Same landowner - another year. Barn beagle accompanying us on a ride gets caught in a leg trap (jaws w/teeth kind) which I removed from the beagle and took him back to the barn. We called police and same as above. I also rescued a fox from a snare a few weeks later and didn't tell anyone.
This land was foxhunted regularly by a local hunt during trapping season. I notified them. They weren't happy!
All the boarders were angry & indignant but it didn't help. He was well within his rights apparently. WE may think it's a booby trap....HE thinks it's a wire fence?!! WE have to be careful about being judgemental about someone elses version of what a fence is!! Ya'll would have a fit with my farm and my ratty old fence!! :winkgrin: It's easily boobyable!! :D:lol:
I dunno, just my 2 cents!

[Mersy]

Intentional blocking of trails with a device that causes intentional harm to a individual is open for a lawsuit agianst the land owner.
Here in my state landowners have been sued for wrongful death (via decapatation by wire).
Old fencewire lying around, implements, junk, old wells ect. is NOT considered intentional harm towards individuals on private property. There is a difference.

[LexInVA]

So, what's the word from the CHS? Anything planned for checking the trails yet?

[CanterQueen]

From the CHS meeting last night: It seems the barbed wire may have been from an old fence and possible dragged into the trail by a deer. Rider and horse got caught up in it and once they were freed, they moved it off to the side of the trail -- probably making it hard for the first searcher to find. Does NOT seem to be a spiteful act from a homeowner.

[LexInVA]

Well that's good. :) Let's hope there are no other surprises lurking in the woods.