"Crystal ball" advertising

[DownYonder]

I just saw a 3 month old foal described as having "extreme hunter talent". Can someone explain how a breeder can make a prediction like that regarding a young foal?

[VirginiaBred]

Pedigree and past performance of said pedigree.

[DownYonder]

Pedigree and past performance of said pedigree.

That would indicated POTENTIAL. There is a world of difference between POTENTIAL and TALENT.

[VirginiaBred]

Depends on how much you know about the pedigree. Potential would go more with an unproven line.

[Tiki]

I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.

[VirginiaBred]

I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.
I agree with you on that, 100%.

[au_panda]

I'd never thought of "10 mover" as related to WB inspections. It is a very commonly used term in the hunters to denote hack winning movement. I'll have to pay better attention to who is using the term in the future.

[DownYonder]

Depends on how much you know about the pedigree. Potential would go more with an unproven line.

Foal is by a WB Grand Prix dressage stallion out of a WB mare.

[DownYonder]

I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.

LOL, yep - I know what you mean!

Whenever I see a horse advertised as a "10" mover, I wonder - "say's who?"

[Giddy-up]

I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.

(covers mouth with hands) :lol::lol::lol:

[JB]

I'd never thought of "10 mover" as related to WB inspections. It is a very commonly used term in the hunters to denote hack winning movement. I'll have to pay better attention to who is using the term in the future.

An A-show hack winning Hunter, if shown at a WB inspection with that movement, will likely not score well in that department because it's too "flat". So no, not at all the same.

[pwynnnorman]

I agree with VABred, but only when it comes to pony hunters, which is one of the most specialized disciplines out there that doesn't require a ton of athletic "talent" for decent success. "Type" goes a long way in pony hunters -- and it doesn't hurt that the gene pool is, comparatively, a lot smaller, too.

But for a horse foal to find decent success in hunters, I don't think there's a pedigree out there that can guarentee it the way certain pony hunter pedigrees practically can. Too many variables, unless you're talking 3' or under divisions at not-necessarily-top shows. With the pony foals, you barely have to look at them, so true do some lines breed (and crossbreed).

But name me a horse bloodline that breeds so true that you can sell the baby as a top (rated/national/etc.) prospect before it has jumped a fence? Same with jumpers or dressage, I suspect, although I admit that there may be some "hot" horse stallions (and mares) out there that can get babies sold on that kind of "promise."

But then once those foals get u/s, you have to question whether it was the pedigree or the purse that produced the performance.

Pony hunters, western pleasure horses, park horses: straightforward physical disciplines where type is paramount and there's a ton of history to identify what wins. 3'6"-plus hunters, jumpers and upper level dressage or event horses: way too many variables. And even movement, in the foal, isn't accurately depicted at a young age. Hunters also have a specifc type of carriage. I've seen ponies (got a two-year-old like this) that go along long and low, and I've seen a ton of western pleasure yearlings do so, too. But I haven't seen that easy, efficient hunter carriage in horse foals--they all seem to go more "upheaded" at that age, so how can you tell if the carriage will be there, much less the movement? (I've always been critical of judging any movement at a young age--how can a horse or pony possibly move the way it will when it's going under saddle when its proportions are way off from what they'll be at maturity--including butt height, leg to body, neck length to back length, and so on??? Biggest crock I see in foal inspections--judging their movement...and I haven't even mentioned the falsehoods of movement due to the "tail up, head up," chase 'em around conditions! Like puppies and kittens are always cute; foals always move fancy when their tails are over their backs.)

[JB]

But name me a horse bloodline that breeds so true that you can sell the baby as a top (rated/national/etc.) prospect before it has jumped a fence? Same with jumpers or dressage, I suspect, although I admit that there may be some "hot" horse stallions (and mares) out there that can get babies sold on that kind of "promise."


When it comes to Jumpers and Dressage, I think you can "guarantee" some ability to the same extent you can with the pony lines. There's a good thread on SHB right now which talks about the Cor de line (and Holsteiners in general) just about guaranteeing a horse who can jump the snot out of anything you point it at. Several other lines too. Dressage is probably a bit trickier, since the mentality it take to reach the very top levels is one of a kind.

Hunters - yeah, very few where you can even begin to just about guarantee the talent. I don't even know if Popeye K has proven to be incredibly reliable in that department.

The real issue though isn't the horses themselves, but the fact that Hunter folks have cared so little for so long about pedigree that there simply isn't the history behind any given horse to be able to make an assumption. I don't know why the pony breeders got so big into parental history, but because they did, and because the WB breeders always have been, there is precedence for being able to say "cross Him and Her and you're all but guaranteed to have a successful X-discipline foal".

[tri]

I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.

You better hope a top hunter prospect foal doesn't get a 10 at a warmblood inspection. Otherwise you probably have a crappy hunter prospect!

[VirginiaBred]

I agree with VABred, but only when it comes to pony hunters, which is one of the most specialized disciplines out there that doesn't require a ton of athletic "talent" for decent success. "Type" goes a long way in pony hunters -- and it doesn't hurt that the gene pool is, comparatively, a lot smaller, too.

But for a horse foal to find decent success in hunters, I don't think there's a pedigree out there that can guarentee it the way certain pony hunter pedigrees practically can. Too many variables, unless you're talking 3' or under divisions at not-necessarily-top shows.

.........but only when it comes to pony hunters, which is one of the most specialized disciplines out there that doesn't require a ton of athletic "talent" for decent success.

Maybe not where you are, but in Virginia and at the top levels, athletic talent is a requirement. There are tons of ponies at the average level you've spent time describing, but when the cream rises to the top, many equations make up the winner, and athleticism is among the ingredients. The "gene pool" of the generations of proven may be small, but with careful breeding, can be increased.

I know of quite a few more modern stallions that have sired lovely performance offspring (A Fine Romance, Aristos B, Mandan, Diskus to name a few) and I'm leaving out so many.

Point is, if you have the history or learn the history, you can go to pedigrees and do it again.

Now back to the Original Poster's statement...............

[YankeeLawyer]

.........but only when it comes to pony hunters, which is one of the most specialized disciplines out there that doesn't require a ton of athletic "talent" for decent success.

Maybe not where you are, but in Virginia and at the top levels, athletic talent is a requirement. There are tons of ponies at the average level you've spent time describing, but when the cream rises to the top, many equations make up the winner, and athleticism is among the ingredients. The "gene pool" of the generations of proven may be small, but with careful breeding, can be increased.

I know of quite a few more modern stallions that have sired lovely performance offspring (A Fine Romance, Aristos B, Mandan, Diskus to name a few) and I'm leaving out so many.

Point is, if you have the history or learn the history, you can go to pedigrees and do it again.



I believe PWynn was probably suggesting that just about any sound horse can jump up to about 3 feet. That does not mean they can do it in A-show winning form. But there is a big difference between asking a pony to jump 8 3 foot fences and asking the same pony to jump around at Rolex.

If I did not believe in the importance of bloodlines in predicting future performance aptitude, I would not breed. But I do not think there are any guarantees -- in any discipline -- and I have seen plenty of gorgeous, bred -to-the-nines horses jump like deer and end up complete washouts when they actually are started over fences. And if that were not so, a LOT more succesful hunters would be coming out of the HB division.

[tri]

It is the same thing with all these dressage breeders who claim FEI talent or FEI gaits or the breeders who claim the foal is suitable for jumpers because one day the foal jumped out of his pasture.

[VirginiaBred]

It is the same thing with all these dressage breeders who claim FEI talent or FEI gaits or the breeders who claim the foal is suitable for jumpers because one day the foal jumped out of his pasture.




:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: you owe me a keyboard!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have never had one of my foals jump out of a pasture. Does that mean they won't win the Olympics? :winkgrin: I have had them jumping ring jumps while mom was ridden, so maybe they just don't like cross country. :lol:

I think if you have siblings that have talent for that discipline, a breeder can compare foals and have a pretty good idea about their talents from a fairly young age. You will see a range, but bloodline that are producing well, are going to give you pretty consistent results.

The Europeans are jumping foals now to predict jumping ability. :dead: :no:

[YankeeLawyer]

It is the same thing with all these dressage breeders who claim FEI talent or FEI gaits or the breeders who claim the foal is suitable for jumpers because one day the foal jumped out of his pasture.

I agree completely.

[DownYonder]

It is the same thing with all these dressage breeders who claim FEI talent or FEI gaits or the breeders who claim the foal is suitable for jumpers because one day the foal jumped out of his pasture.

Yeah, I would be just as skeptical about a dressage breeder claiming "FEI talent" in a foal. As I said, POTENTIAL is a completely different animal from TALENT. I don't how how anyone can evaluate TALENT for any particular discipline in a horse that isn't even under saddle yet. :lol:

[facinated]

Hunter talent is easy. You can chase a baby over a little jump, watch it move, and guage it's disposition. If it is sweet, and quiet, picks it's knees way up, and moves well, that is all you need.

[goodmorning]

I completely agree with VirginiaBred. Breeding may be a crapshoot, but there are ways to go about things to ensure you give yourself the best chance, the foundation of which starts with a great broodmare. Just because she is a 'WB' bred to a dressage stallion, doesn't mean a thing. It is hard to understand what makes a lovely hunter unless you have seen several, and at some point you can tell (far before they are 3-months old), what their natural carriage is.

And as far as hunter-movers, I would not expect a foal to get above a 7 or 8 (and how many horses really get about that anyway?) and be a great hunter mover. I think anything much higher than the requires too much hock action, and a completely higher carriage than a hunter. But I would not think they should score any lower, as they should have a natural engagement from behind & an engaged topline as a youngster, with great freedom of shoulder that allows for a big step.

[Signature]

Usually when we see "10 mover" we find the horse is usually a 6... or less... there have been exceptions, but I would never say 10 mover unless I really thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen... :) If the horse is that good a mover you don't even need to say anything about it, it will speak for itself. If you think you have to tell me it's a 10 for me to realize it, it's probably not. :) LOL

[tri]

How do you realize it from a little bitty ad?

[Jesse'sMom]

You better hope a top hunter prospect foal doesn't get a 10 at a warmblood inspection. Otherwise you probably have a crappy hunter prospect!

VERY true~ you dont want your hunter foals getting 10's.
Actually a few times for me, even at the DSHB shows, i got low scores, but it was stated on the cards & said at the inspections what a nice hunter prospect- no conformation comments, but flat knee, not enough lift, etc.. And when i see that ,i am always like secretly to myself" COOL!" cause i dont ride dressage. I am ok with that.
Also can be stated as that, going on past foals from same mare & comparison of movement at this stage & what the mare throws. and if its a heavier flat knee mover thats ground covering, compared to an uphill powerful hind end with suspension & impulsion.

I have a 2yo HARDCORE dressage blood. She was bred for dressage.
But it was clear as day, as a young foal she was a hunter.

now 2, spot on, She's is a hunter.
http://www.irishhillsfarm.com/delaine

signature thats a very true comment!

[VirginiaBred]

I have a 2yo HARDCORE dressage blood. She was bred for dressage.
But it was clear as day, as a young foal she was a hunter.

now 2, spot on, She's is a hunter.
http://www.irishhillsfarm.com/delaine

To me, she has entirely too much knee action for a hunter. I can see that Sport Horse movement very easily.
Seems very nice and quiet and easy for the 11 year old!

[YankeeLawyer]

Seems very nice and quiet and easy for the 11 year old!

She does, but... who puts an 11 year old on a 2 year old?!? (nevermind riding a 2 year old WB -- in draw reins no less).

Anyway, looks like a very sweet mare.

[Signature]

How do you realize it from a little bitty ad?

Of course after seeing video, that is what I meant. :winkgrin:

[Kinsella]

I just saw a 3 month old foal described as having "extreme hunter talent". Can someone explain how a breeder can make a prediction like that regarding a young foal?

The GOV just awarded this colt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-78i4IZp0) a premium based on his potential to be a hunter. They raved about him and how it was obvious that he was bred to be a hunter, and what a successful cross it was.

[VirginiaBred]

The GOV just awarded this colt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-78i4IZp0) a premium based on his potential to be a hunter. They raved about him and how it was obvious that he was bred to be a hunter, and what a successful cross it was.


Wonder why the GOV would say that? That's not the hunter movement I know. Maybe the GOV needs educating? :confused:

[mistyjewell]

I agree... I'm looking at that video scratching my head, I'm not much into hunters anymore, but that colt doesn't even look remotely like any hunter... not neck/head set, movement, nothing.

[VirginiaBred]

I'm thinking when they don't want to score it under the GOV guidelines they just say; "Oh, it's perfect for Hunters!"

NOT.

[tri]

uh, uh, uh. Just goes to show you that we don't need Germans telling us what hunters are. That is absolutely NOT a hunter type.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Movement can really depend so much on how they are ridden, and their carriage. I have a filly that placed 4th at Dressage at Devon, but when she relaxes, and drops her head, her knee flattens, and the float kicks in. Then she is ALL hunter. In spite of her Dressage at Devon placing, she does not have enough dressage movement to do really well in the FEI young horse tests, or "real" FEI dressage, though she would do well lower levels with an amateur. We got as much movement "elevation" as we could in the trot, with a higher head.

[MelantheLLC]

Thank you, I don't know that much about hunters but I looked at that vid and thought, oh dear, I must have no clue at all.

Not a bad little dressage prospect, though?

[DownYonder]

Thank you, I don't know that much about hunters but I looked at that vid and thought, oh dear, I must have no clue at all.

Not a bad little dressage prospect, though?

Not sure I can agree with this - he doesn't have the movement *I* would expect to see in a top of class dressage foal. Yeah, he has more joint articulation than many hunter people want to see, but I am being told by my hunter friends that many hunter judges seem to be accepting this more and more. I have also been told by a hunter breeder that horses that can articulate in the lower limbs can usually also articulate in the shoulder and pelvis - meaning they can sit and rock back better on lift-off and use their shoulders better over jumps.

And I believe that Holly Simensen is pretty familiar with the hunter industry. She has been heavily involved with sport horses in this country for - what, 40years now? - and she frequently visits people who breed mostly for hunters, plus she attends some of the big h/j shows in Florida when she can - often taking German guests to them so they can get a better understanding of hunters.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Good hunter "movers" have still not changed what is ideal, but with the demand for a horse that really uses its shoulders over a jump, you will see more knee action on the flat. That does not mean those horses will win the hack. On the contrary, it is rare for a really good hack winner to also win the o/f classes.

A youngster that lacks hack winning movement will have to show their form over jumps to be considered a good hunter prospect.

[VirginiaBred]

Good hunter "movers" have still not changed what is ideal, but with the demand for a horse that really uses its shoulders over a jump, you will see more knee action on the flat. That does not mean those horses will win the hack. On the contrary, it is rare for a really good hack winner to also win the o/f classes.

A youngster that lacks hack winning movement will have to show their form over jumps to be considered a good hunter prospect.

I'll give you that, but we're basing our comments on those two videos. What do you say/think about them?

[Fairview Horse Center]

I'll give you that, but we're basing our comments on those two videos. What do you say/think about them?

Neither one, from the little clips are what I think of as hunter movers.

[DownYonder]

Good hunter "movers" have still not changed what is ideal, but with the demand for a horse that really uses its shoulders over a jump, you will see more knee action on the flat.

Yes, that is what my hunter breeder friends tell me. Also consider that this colt was being "chased" a bit with a plastic bag - most foals are going to show more animation under those conditions than is usually wanted for a hunter type evaluation.

I have a question, though. The colt is by Black Tie, who was imported specifically to be a hunter sire. The dam is a TB. Undoubtedly, this foal was specifically bred to be a hunter foal. So are you hunter experts saying that he is NOT a good hunter prospect because he has more knee and hock action than is wanted for a hack winner? Isn't being the hack winner only PART of the equation?

[Jesse'sMom]

She does, but... who puts an 11 year old on a 2 year old?!? (nevermind riding a 2 year old WB -- in draw reins no less).

Anyway, looks like a very sweet mare.

depends on the 2 yo & the 11 yo. Jess has raised this filly she she was a weanling. She never offered anything to question her demeanor & you can see, she is sweet. I have had 15 year old top of the line show horses I would **NEVER** sit my daughter on. As for Jess being 11 She has been riding since before she could walk. For me, its not an age thing its a compatibility thing.

But this thread is not about what my child rides or what breed or age my filly is yankee lawyer, its about hunter movers.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have a question, though. The colt is by Black Tie, who was imported specifically to be a hunter sire. The dam is a TB. Undoubtedly, this foal was specifically bred to be a hunter foal. So are you hunter experts saying that he is NOT a good hunter prospect because he has more knee and hock action than is wanted for a hack winner? Isn't being the hack winner only PART of the equation?

See the rest of my post that you didn't quote. :winkgrin: :lol:

That does not mean those horses will win the hack. On the contrary, it is rare for a really good hack winner to also win the o/f classes.

A youngster that lacks hack winning movement will have to show their form over jumps to be considered a good hunter prospect.

[mistyjewell]

I don't think it would be a good idea to make too many comments abotu this foal, as I'm not sure who the owners are etc. I agree that it doesn't scream "hunter" to me, and I saw quite a bit of hunter breeding this year (i'm not an expert, just saw what the judges were placing on the line) and those that were winning had very relaxed toplines with long sweeping strides. They seemed to like good hind ends (I'll persume for jumping ability) and were ok with hock action, but they still wanted quiet, big strids with less is more in the knee movement dept. They did not want the knee action sought after in the dressage breeding classes. I believe that while uphill movement was ok, they actually perfered a more level, elongated stride. (I may be wrong on the last part, just guessing from what I saw)

So instead of talking about one specific foal, lets talk about generalizations on what judges like.

But, reguardless of this, I have seen foals go premium and go nowhere and mature into not as nice movers, and vice versa. These judges see these foals one day in their life, and foals/youngsters can go through all kinds of growth stages, some benificial, some not so much, to their movement.

I think it's really, really hard to gaurntee a horse is going to go FEI, even if it has potential, since so much has to go into it (mind, training, accidents, money (lol) that *spark*) adn all kinds of things can change an outcome. I think one could say bred to be an upper level comp. horse in a sport, but not that it's a gaurntee, or promise.

[YankeeLawyer]

But this thread is not about what my child rides or what breed or age my filly is yankee lawyer, its about hunter movers.

Thanks for the slap. I just found it somewhat astonishing that you have a 2 year old going under saddle and in draw reins.

[Zlotych]

depends on the 2 yo & the 11 yo. Jess has raised this filly she she was a weanling. She never offered anything to question her demeanor & you can see, she is sweet. I have had 15 year old top of the line show horses I would **NEVER** sit my daughter on. As for Jess being 11 She has been riding since before she could walk. For me, its not an age thing its a compatibility thing.

But this thread is not about what my child rides or what breed or age my filly is yankee lawyer, its about hunter movers.


Mmm, you posted the link to the video, comments seem to be fair game at that point. They weren't all sunshine and roses, so now its not about the video, but the movement. Convenient. OH, and BTW, the thread seems to have started to be about advertising the suitability of a young horse.

[MelantheLLC]

Not sure I can agree with this - he doesn't have the movement *I* would expect to see in a top of class dressage foal.

Ok, purely for my education (and I'm not saying he would be "top class" because I don't have that good of an eye, just a nice dressage prospect) but what I see in this foal, which is trotting calmly, w/o the tail in the air thing, is an upright neck, hocks coming under with action, a free shoulder and weight carried on the rear end, so that his fore legs can just go out there if he wants them to, which he does very briefly. Now maybe as he matures and when he engages his back and drops his head, his shoulder won't be as free.

He doesn't show extravagant movement here, but he's using himself in good balance and rather powerfully for his age. He doesn't look like his legs might break if he came down too hard on them. I wonder if he doesn't really have quite a bit of ability to be more extravagant if he wanted to.

I am not at all experienced in judging foals so I'd love to hear feedback on what I see. (We know this foal has already been judged a great hunter prospect so his owner's not going to suffer if his dressage potential is critiqued. ;) )

[JB]

Movement can really depend so much on how they are ridden, and their carriage. I have a filly that placed 4th at Dressage at Devon, but when she relaxes, and drops her head, her knee flattens, and the float kicks in. Then she is ALL hunter. In spite of her Dressage at Devon placing, she does not have enough dressage movement to do really well in the FEI young horse tests, or "real" FEI dressage, though she would do well lower levels with an amateur. We got as much movement "elevation" as we could in the trot, with a higher head.

What level was she ridden at and doing well (dressage)? Or the equivalent.

I just ask because any decent Hunter *should* be able to do well enough up to about 2nd Level. Up to then it's not about having the "wow" factor in the movement (or shouldn't be), but ALL about being soft and relaxed and supple and *correct*. So I can totally see an "ALL hunter" horse being able to do well at lower levels of Dressage, but not higher because the build that makes a good hack winner is too low for an upper level Dressage horse who needs that higher neck conformation to be able to do *really* well in the higher collection and "sit".

[mistyjewell]

If you're jusdging the foal as a dressage prospect, not hunter, then I agree with your statements, but it wouldn't be a premium foal, it'd be a good, solid dressage prospect. I think a lot of people believe that if a foal has talent, it's a premium foal, but really, premium's should be reserved for the best of the best, as to seperate that jaw dropping movement from those that are good, solid, citizens for the sport. I think a few registries realized that as our breeding programs got better, there were a lot of premiums in the past few years. They are now re-evaluating their judging to make it so 60% of foals aren't premiums (or more as I have seen at some inspections). But I guess it depends on the registry and what they determine a premium to be. I'd say premium foals, in truth, should be those that score in the top 25% or less, maybe even the top 10% of foals, but thats just my opinion.

Again, I'm not going to comment specifically on this foal, since I don't think thats right, as it is someone else's picture, reguardless of them having posted a movie online, the comments haven't been solicited.

[Jesse'sMom]

Thanks for the slap. I just found it somewhat astonishing that you have a 2 year old going under saddle and in draw reins.

No slap in the face at all. You may also find it astonishing that the International Hunter futurity has the 2 year old U/S championships in september. She is like all the other 2 year old warmbloods that will be showing this year & that have shown every year in the past.
when to break is everyones personal opinion and a horse by horse case. 3 year olds in germany are doing 100 day testing, so for sure every stallion that did the 100 day test @ 3 is broke & most like jumping @ 2 so they are ready for the test @ 3.
The draw reins were a suggestion by her trainer should they be needed since the horse is so green so they are there if needed. Being her trainer is one of the best trainers & judges in the country, I'll listen to her.

But again, this is not about what my child rides.

[3Dogs]

Interesting thread!

There may be hunter type foals. Whether the hunter type foal will be a great "hunter" (for me, that means a horse that can and will jump 3'6" and up (and have the other qualities of that discipline) - is conjecture.

Me - I choose great jumping lines, good rideability and temperment sires (who have a history of showing in the hunters if possible - to date, I have seen live my choices) and match/ buy out of dams who usually have flatter movement, can jump, bloodlines known for temperment and rideability, may have shown in the hunters (my one mare did) and then - - - hope for the best!!:lol: But do I know when that foal comes out if it is or will be an "absolute hunter" -????
dang, sure wish I DID! Heck, then I wouldn't have to wait quite all these years to see what I have......


As an aside, plenty of top show hunters don't bother with the hack - waste of time. They win championships because they jump so well. Not to say you want movement like Quaterback for you hunter :lol: but a free shoulder and engaged hind end is desirable and necessary at the upper levels of the sport.

so back to the OP - I too think it is a stretch to say : "absolute" hunter talent about a foal! Or "will win on the line" (I love that one, although a few might deserve such an pronouncement). Or all other, some mentioned, hyperbole !:D that crops up about babies :D

[Kinsella]

I'm thinking when they don't want to score it under the GOV guidelines they just say; "Oh, it's perfect for Hunters!"

NOT.
The GOV doesn't score foals.... And I can tell you that this colt absolutely has the potential to be a top hunter. I think anyone that was at that inspection will agree with me. So sorry the video isn't up to everyones standards, but I'd happily take a barn full of foals like that.

Here he is a month or so ago...

[MelantheLLC]

Again, I'm not going to comment specifically on this foal, since I don't think thats right, as it is someone else's picture, reguardless of them having posted a movie online, the comments haven't been solicited.

Thanks for the feedback! (Just as an aside, I understand your point, and yet the reality is, if you post something on the internet, you have be ready for comments, good, bad and unsolicited. It's just part of the action of posting on the net. Everyone in the world can see it and comment on it publicly, in any venue they like. Since this can't be prevented, it's worth emphasizing so that people understand what they are doing when they put anything on web.)

[YankeeLawyer]

No slap in the face at all. You may also find it astonishing that the International Hunter futurity has the 2 year old U/S championships in september. She is like all the other 2 year old warmbloods that will be showing this year & that have shown every year in the past.

Yes, I am familiar with the IHF. My horse that was BYH at Devon broke down due to training for that event as a 3 year old -- before they started offering IHF classes for 2 year olds. Never again, for any of my horses.


The draw reins were a suggestion by her trainer should they be needed since the horse is so green so they are there if needed. Being her trainer is one of the best trainers & judges in the country, I'll listen to her.

I have trained for years with some of the biggest name trainers. We don't use draw reins on our youngsters, ever. To each their own but I would really reconsider using them on a baby.

[Kinsella]

Yes, I am familiar with the IHF. My horse that was BYH at Devon broke down due to training for that event as a 3 year old -- before they started offering IHF clases for 2 year olds. Never again, for any of my horses.
That's a trainer issue, not an IHF issue. If the horse wasn't ready for the work, the trainer should have known it and told you so.

FWIW, the riding of the filly doesn't bother me so much, though I would also not have her in draw reins. Just because Mr. BNT says to do it doesn't mean it should be done. I know a lot of BNT's that drug every horse they send in the ring, but that doesn't mean it's right...

[Jesse'sMom]

To each their own

Exactly

[lauriep]

To bring this thread back to the OP's question, I believe deeply in the value of a pedigree, IF YOU ALSO KNOW ABOUT THE NAMES ON THE PEDIGREE. If you don't know anything about what these horses have done/produced, further back than the first generation, then it has very little meaning. And anything with a TB in it, intended to be a hunter, leaves a lot of room for speculation, since most are off the track and don't necessarily have a show career behind them. The WB parts of the pedigree should be fairly easy to assess. But you HAVE TO DO THE HOMEWORK AND KNOW WHAT THESE NAMES REPRESENT. Otherwise, it is just a piece of paper with a lot of names on it.

As far as assessing a foal, I know that if you live with the foal or are able to spend hours watching it, you will (or will not) see glimpses of what you are looking for in a hunter's movement (or dressage). But it takes seeing the animal relaxed, in a comfortable environment, and you have to really watch to get just the right combination of relaxation, dropped head, enough strides, you get the picture. It is also just a feeling you develop after looking at countless babies. You just know. An inspection is most definitely NOT the place to assess it. And I personally don't give a rat's patootie about inspections. I do not need someone I don't know telling me my horses' value for its prospective career. I have watched enough horses and youngsters, as has my partner, to be quite confident in our choices, sans inspections.

And PWynn, I really never want to hear your BS about pony hunters not being athletes again. No, they probably aren't the type of athlete that you are seeking to breed. They don't have to be, but we also never test them, so maybe they are. What they DO need to do is save the butts of countless children from all sorts of bad situations. This takes athleticism, scope and a great brain. And I know few ponies who don't posess these qualities. So, leave that out of your argument, because you are dead wrong.

[VirginiaBred]

The GOV doesn't score foals....

I was basing that comment on the direct quote: "The GOV just awarded this colt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-78i4IZp0) a premium based on his potential to be a hunter." Sorry.

And in your picture he does show hunter movement to me. In that picture. :)

[TrueColours]

Neither one, from the little clips are what I think of as hunter movers.


I agree 100% but how can ANYTHING look like a hunter mover when someone is chasing it with a plastic bag tied to the end of a whip?!

I dont think that any inspection venue is the place to determine if something is or is not a hunter type mover. There is no way any of these babies could or would go in a relaxed long and low frame while being chased around

[VirginiaBred]

Right On Laurie!

[Justbay1]

Right On Laurie!

Yes!! LaurieP!!

And 3Dogs too!

[Justbay1]

I wanted to add, we look at what the bloodlines have produced. Mares and the stallions. It gives us a good indicator of what the foal should be able to do in the future. Nothing is for sure, but a good idea.

Important is What the mare HAS produced. And if a maiden mare, what her bloodlines have produced.

And when we look to a stallion, what qualities he has produced. And with a young stallion, what his bloodlines have produced.

That gives us a good idea of the potential as hunter prospect.

[3Dogs]

I have hesitated to add (due to comments that have popped up:winkgrin:) that my now 3 year old filly, who I am just starting out, and think will be my wonderhunter (all right, hoping hoping:cool:), was top filly at her AHS inspection, where she was QUITE animated while being "encouraged" around the covered ring in Atlanta!
Not hard to imagine why that adorable BT baby looks so "up" in that video!

Course now that I have gone back to look at the one picture I have from the inspection (and no video), might say this doesn't look that up :lol:

[YankeeLawyer]

I wanted to add, we look at what the bloodlines have produced. Mares and the stallions. It gives us a good indicator of what the foal should be able to do in the future. Nothing is for sure, but a good idea.

Important is What the mare HAS produced. And if a maiden mare, what her bloodlines have produced.

And when we look to a stallion, what qualities he has produced. And with a young stallion, what his bloodlines have produced.

That gives us a good idea of the potential as hunter prospect.

Yes, but I think there is a big difference between saying "this foal has good potential as a hunter prospect" and "this foal has definite hunter talent" (or FEI talent, or whatever). I don't think anyone is suggesting that a good pedigree of proven bloodlines is not a good predicter of future performance success.

Also -- and perhaps this is implicit in some of the comments -- beyond pedigree, I look at the actual qualities of the foal's parents. There are plenty of horses with super pedigrees that are unremarkable individuals themselves. I am not going to be very impressed by an unremarkable broodmare, for example, that happens to have outstanding lineage. I want to see that the individual confirms what the papers predict. And ditto with regard to the foal.

[Tamara in TN]

I just saw a 3 month old foal described as having "extreme hunter talent". Can someone explain how a breeder can make a prediction like that regarding a young foal?

cause the faster you sell it the less you have to feed it ??? :lol::lol:

[3Dogs]

Tamara:
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

seeing the "description" isolated like that, I think we might have found a new concept reality TV show :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
"America's next Extreme Hunter Talent" - the imagination goes wild at the thought :D

[ahf]

I think it's all semantics. THe general buying public are not horsemen. They are looking for definitive statements. They are looking for "FEI potential" when they've never ridden beyond 1st l4 (which is my personal hot button) they are seeking "extreme hunter talent" when they ride in the 2'6" classes, they are looking for an advanced horse when they are going training.

Lofty asparations are admirable I suppose, but there is rarely a plan (or inate ability) to back it up.

I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist because someone used what a horseman would think is the wrong word - talent rather than potential. There are no horsemen left. It's all about the superlative.

[spacely]

I have hesitated to add (due to comments that have popped up:winkgrin:) that my now 3 year old filly, who I am just starting out, and think will be my wonderhunter (all right, hoping hoping:cool:), was top filly at her AHS inspection, where she was QUITE animated while being "encouraged" around the covered ring in Atlanta!
Not hard to imagine why that adorable BT baby looks so "up" in that video!

Course now that I have gone back to look at the one picture I have from the inspection (and no video), might say this doesn't look that up :lol:

Not really much to add, but also wanted to say that my (hopeful) hunter filly, was also quite "up" at her inspection. While not being "encouraged", it was her first time off the farm & both she & her Mom were "up" that day. She was a Gold Premium (RPSI - 8.0) which was a complete & total shock to me.

Pic take at inspection. Lots more animation here than her norm.

[Tamara in TN]

I think it's all semantics.
I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist because someone used what a horseman would think is the wrong word - talent rather than potential. There are no horsemen left. It's all about the superlative.

the advertising turn of phrase as it were...??

I had a walking horse mare years ago...(yes I see the eye rolling now but it really is on topic :)) well I had put a LOT of bridle horse work into this mare...as I had her sire...and there is no actual way to say "bridle horse" and it means anything to Sally Q Buyer so I wrote "5yo walking horse mare trained as a reiner..." and to her training credit I did smack a healthy price on her I'll admit..

so anyways...this VERY nice lady comes up from the Valley in a convertable two seater Mercedes and says..."I have seen reiners and I don't ride too well but for that money she should be just fine for me"...

ummmmm...welllll no she wasn't...we had all the gross cues at the slower speeds...but I finally had to tell her that her seat could not steer the mare as there were just too many gears there and so no, her dreams of cowgirl hood...even on a broke as hell walking horse mare could not come true...nor could my dreams of a sale that day :)

the same mare lives to this day with an elderly old cowboy who has yucky arthritis in his hands...as a funny story when they came to look at the horse his wife asked what the horses name was, and he says "well she's called her "Mare" since we've got here" :lol:

best

[lauriep]

I also wanted to add that the pony breeders are way ahead of the game because they have been keeping very detailed records for a very long time. Their pedigrees compare in merit to the European's, IMO. When you see a Farnley pedigree, for example, it is typically a product of years of careful selection, and the animals named on it are thought to be some of the elite of the pony world.

Unfortunately for the hunter world, this has never, and may never, be the case, as our horses used to come from the track, well documented it's true, but for running, not jumping. If an individual happened to excel as a hunter, perhaps there was some chance of breeding to the stallion, but none of seeing similar offspring doing the same job. Now, while breeders are certainly trying to rectify this situation, it is still pretty one sided as far as the pedigree goes. The stallion usually comes from a long line of jumping blood, but the dam often has nothing to recommend her other than her own performance record, if that. The show world will probably never care much, so it is up to the breeders to persevere and keep good records, breed the best you can to the best, don't settle for mediocrity, and several generations from now, you may be able to look at a pedigree that REEKS of hunters!

[Justbay1]

Yes, but I think there is a big difference between saying "this foal has good potential as a hunter prospect" and "this foal has definite hunter talent" (or FEI talent, or whatever). I don't think anyone is suggesting that a good pedigree of proven bloodlines is not a good predicter of future performance success.

Also -- and perhaps this is implicit in some of the comments -- beyond pedigree, I look at the actual qualities of the foal's parents. There are plenty of horses with super pedigrees that are unremarkable individuals themselves. I am not going to be very impressed by an unremarkable broodmare, for example, that happens to have outstanding lineage. I want to see that the individual confirms what the papers predict. And ditto with regard to the foal.

I agree.

I will always believe, a good predictor of performance is the bloodlines. A lot goes into getting them to the ring. I know that very well. With that being said, I can usually predict what the foals potential may be in the future based on how it is bred and its conformation as a baby horse.

And I have seen plenty of horses with good lineage on one side and not the other.:cool: that are not impressive.

[3Dogs]

Tamara - that is the funniest, cutest story I have read for ages! Thanks :D
Glad to know "mare" is still with her cowboy :D:D
and LaurieP - that says it!

[Tamara in TN]

The show world will probably never care much, so it is up to the breeders to persevere and keep good records, breed the best you can to the best, don't settle for mediocrity, and several generations from now, you may be able to look at a pedigree that REEKS of hunters!

it is my understanding that a 5% of a TB's racing winnings go back to their breeder regardless of the current owner...perhaps the hunter folks should look into that...

best

[graystonefarm]

This is so OT but I'm sad and disappointed about the 2 year old in draw reins. I'm shocked that a breeder would encourage it. I've struggled with selling some of mine to others who have made poor choices, but never have I imagined that a fellow warmblood breeder (who should know better) would think it's "normal". To me it appears that the horse's welfare and future well being are not being considered but instead they are focusing on how to sell and make money quickly off that sweet filly. I'm all for making money because that's the goal, but my opinion is that it should never compromise the horse's future soundness and well being. :cry:

[tri]

And yet you are very much in support of the european system and don't you help people import warmbloods? Warmbloods in europe are routinely started at 2 1/2 years old, put on contact from the beginning and then there is the whole 3 year old stallions in the 100 day testing - something else you support - where 3 year olds are galloped over cross country obstacles, required to jump jumper style courses and work in something like 1st level dressage. Those 3 year old stallions start training for this at 2 1/2 years old and quite a few are started in bitting rigs, the german draw reins that go from the girth through the bit and attach to the girth.

[graystonefarm]

Just because I have purchased and imported broodmares does not mean that I support training in such a manner. Nor would I purchase one that has been started in such a manner. But, that's only me. ;)

It's also the reason why I don't watch horse racing. I can't bear to watch one break down.

[Justbay1]

I just saw a 3 month old foal described as having "extreme hunter talent". Can someone explain how a breeder can make a prediction like that regarding a young foal?

Back to the OP. I was thinking about her question.

I think a lot of sellers/breeders will just say what they think people want to hear to get the deal done and the foal sold. And many buyers buy into it. And buying 3 month old is buying it on hope and dreams.

A good buyer should look at the mares, the stallions and the foals and their siblings of the program that they are buying from. Not JUST the verbage or a pretty picture.

As we have seen in a couple videos here, what is "considered" a hunter prospect by the "inspectors'" are not necessarily what A Circuit Hunter buyers are looking for (on that particular day the videos were taken). And I take my foals to inspections so I know how that goes FWIW.

We have A circuit bred hunters and have a young stallion competing in Dressage with Jim Koford, and a have had couple other Dressage horses as well.

But, in all advertising, people can claim whatever they want. It is up to the buyer to investigate it further.

[YankeeLawyer]

And yet you are very much in support of the european system and don't you help people import warmbloods? Warmbloods in europe are routinely started at 2 1/2 years old, put on contact from the beginning and then there is the whole 3 year old stallions in the 100 day testing - something else you support - where 3 year olds are galloped over cross country obstacles, required to jump jumper style courses and work in something like 1st level dressage. Those 3 year old stallions start training for this at 2 1/2 years old and quite a few are started in bitting rigs, the german draw reins that go from the girth through the bit and attach to the girth.

The horses I have bought in Germany were not started until summer of their 3 year old year and were January and Feb babies, so in fact they were 3 1/2 years old.

Regarding the stallions, I am opposed to 100-day testing of 3 year olds (and I think 100-day testing at any age is not ideal, either). Note that few of the licensed stallions go on to competitive careers so who knows if they would hold up long-term. I don't know how the ones that end up geldings fare, but as I indicated I am not an advocate of pushing them at an early age.

[3Dogs]

and Robin, off topic, congrats on the great showing of Edison in Kentucky!!!!

Okay, back on topic........:D

[lauriep]

Let's not get into the whole what age to start them at and how to train them. Do what you believe in and let others do the same without all the judgement. It just isn't necessary.

[YankeeLawyer]

Back to the OP. I was thinking about her question.

I think a lot of sellers/breeders will just say what they think people want to hear to get the deal done and the foal sold. And many buyers buy into it. And buying 3 month old is buying it on hope and dreams.

A good buyer should look at the mares, the stallions and the foals and their siblings of the program that they are buying from. Not JUST the verbage or a pretty picture.

As we have seen in a couple videos here, what is "considered" a hunter prospect by the "inspectors'" are not necessarily what A Circuit Hunter buyers are looking for (on that particular day the videos were taken). And I take my foals to inspections so I know how that goes FWIW.

We have A circuit bred hunters and have a young stallion competing in Dressage with Jim Koford, and a have had couple other Dressage horses as well.

But, in all advertising, people can claim whatever they want. It is up to the buyer to investigate it further.

I agree. And as some others indicated, I believe part of the blame lies with buyers, who, though showing training level or whatnot callup and say they are looking for an FEI prospect -- for themselves, not to put with a pro. I think buzzwords like "FEI propect" have almost become overused and devalued to the point they are a mere proxy for "nice fancy youngster."

[Jesse'sMom]

horse's welfare and future well being are not being considered but instead they are focusing on how to sell and make money quickly off that sweet filly. I'm all for making money because that's the goal, but my opinion is that it should never compromise the horse's future soundness and well being. :cry:

Your wrong. There is no "focus" on anything.
I didn't breed her, I got her as a long weanling- I owned her dam, so your wrong.
This filly is not being sold, is not for sale & is not planning on being sold.
There is no Risk to her "welfare" as you put it, according to professional opinions of vets, x rays, ultra sounds, her scoping, & trainer approves, this is for my kids future horse.

2 yo's are getting ready for 100 day testing & being broke to be sold to US buyers.
2 YO tb's are racing mind you broke & alot in draw reins & tie downs at 16-18 months,
2 yo's are going to the IHF U/S Championships in September.
2 YO mares are getting ready for the MPT's as 3 yo's i believe.
2 YO are getting ready to show materiale as 3 yo's,
2 yos are being over lunged in sidereins-
I would rather see my kid hacking this filly a big open field once a week (or less) then to see a 2 yo lunged every other day, (most in side reins) like i see almost daily on just about every farm i visit.
lets not even get started on the other disciplines that all start @ 2 or younger.

Everyone trains different, believes different things & come from different backgrounds. Sort of like for me, as a dog breeder, I am sadened dissappointed & shocked with your golden being shown with a beer in his mouth that has liquid in it. I am concerned about his welfare.

like Laurie P stated "Let's not get into the whole what age to start them at and how to train them. Do what you believe in and let others do the same without all the judgement. It just isn't necessary.

Thank you Laurie. Yes everyone has their own view of breaking & training & ages to start.

but yet again, this topic is not about my child riding her horse.

[YankeeLawyer]

2 yo's are getting ready for 100 day testing & being sold to US buyers. 2 YO tb's are racing, 2 yo's are going to the IHF U/S Championships in September. 2 YO mares are getting ready for the MPT's as 3 yo's as well.2 YO are getting ready to show materiale as 3 yo's,
2 yos are being over lunged in sidereins- I would rather my kid hack in a field once a week then be see a 2 yo lunged every other day, (most in side reins) like i see almost daily on just about every farm i visit.


Not on my farm.

[Jesse'sMom]

Not on my farm.

Which is understandable since you stated in an earlier post how you pushed your youngster too hard with a trainer for Devon & it broke down.
but again, everyones view is different. you said it yourself in an earlier post "to each their own".

[YankeeLawyer]

Which is understandable since you stated in an earlier post how you pushed your youngster too hard with a trainer for Devon & it broke down.

That is not quite what I said. But if it makes you feel better, have at it. By the way, you are misinformed if you think it is typical to start mares at 2 to prep for an MPT. I do not know one reputable WB breeder who does that.

[lauriep]

Jm, if you agree with me, why are you still responding to YL's pronouncements? Just let it go, train your horses and let's get back to the OT.

[Jesse'sMom]

I do agree 100% this needs to get back to the OT, which i have posted in every response. The nasty comments about my kid & my filly were not neccessary to begin with. I dont think people should be stoned for having different training views.

[TrueColours]

One of the breeders that frequents this board has a picture posted of her 4 month old going through a jump chute

a) I think its insane to even think of sending a baby over anything remotely resembling a jump at that age and I dont care if the "official" line is that "he just went through it himself without us asking him to and we just happened to have a camera on him at the time" and

b) do you feel that what you see as a 4 month old is what you are going to get as a mature horse, form and function wise, over a jump? and:

c) would that sway you one way or the other in buying that youngster based on what talent you did or did not see in that 4 month old jumping photo?

[tri]

I believe it was Alexander - a poster from Germany - who stated on another thread on how to prep the horses that the young horses were lunged for 30 minutes per day, sent through the jumping chute 2 times per week along with quite a bit of other stuff. Riding horses being imported from europe are started at 2 1/2 years old in a crash course that would make most americans eyeballs pop out.

Truecolors, I don't think there is anything wrong with putting a foal through a jumping chute. The jumps are very small and it is only done a few times to determine the foal's attitude towards jumping. The europeans haven't just "started" doing this. They have doing this a long time. Most of your imported warmbloods would have been free jumped as foals.

[pwynnnorman]

I'd sure like to see that. Anyone have video or picture?

[Fairview Horse Center]

A year or so ago, there was a thread about a foal auction, and each foal had a video on line of the foals jumping thru a chute. The jumps were 2 1/2 to 3'. I personally think that is sad for marketing horses to have to force a foal to jump.

That said, I have nothing against them jumping on their own. I am not the poster spoken of, but I do have a photo of my stallion as a baby jumping a jump on his own. We sometimes have kids that ride the broodmares, and the foals run around loose in the arena. We caught him over a jump, but he did it totally on his own. His son did the same thing last week over a gate, but I was not there to see it, and the photographer/kid was on the mare, so no one with a camera. She was not jumping the mare, just a bit of w/t.

We don't have a jump chute. Both times the jump was just out in the middle of the ring, foal free to go around it, no "wings", angled poles, etc.

[imajacres]

TC, I think it is KWPN ( I may be wrong, correct me if so) that has followed free jumping from babies and onwards.
They would have young'uns jump little stuff and video them. Basically they would do this a few times, and then see who had better form when they were say 3 yrs old- the onces who had jumped as babies, or the fresh at it 3 yr olds.

Now my memeory is vague on this, but seems to me, the ones who had done it before were better at first but by a certain age, they were all equal at it.

or am I way off,- in which case maybe someone who has a better memory will chime in.

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara - that is the funniest, cutest story I have read for ages! Thanks :D
Glad to know "mare" is still with her cowboy :D:D
and LaurieP - that says it!

thank you

and by the way the old pics on your opening page are amazing !!

[YankeeLawyer]

I believe it was Alexander - a poster from Germany -



Tri, I believe you mean Alexandra.

[YankeeLawyer]

c) would that sway you one way or the other in buying that youngster based on what talent you did or did not see in that 4 month old jumping photo?

I personally would not buy a foal that was already being jumped.

[3Dogs]

thanks :) all family!

But I have to ask - on your site - the truck looking cut in half?????????? under "Joys of Farming" (not, I should think :lol: - your site, btw, makes me want to visit your part of TN!!!)

[Tamara in TN]

thanks :) all family!

But I have to ask - on your site - the truck looking cut in half?????????? under "Joys of Farming" (not, I should think :lol: - your site, btw, makes me want to visit your part of TN!!!)

oh yes....we had that truck ONE DAY and it split in half full of a 15 ton load of chicken poop !!!! on the side of a state highway...

the funny part was when the State Trooper came from up from very subdivision Kingston TN 30 miles away, came out to make the report as the only available trooper the conversation went something like this:

Is this your truck Mr Howard?

yes sir

can I see your proof of insurance?

yes sir

and was this your driver?

yes sir...

(blah blah blah)

and what is your cargo today Mr Howard?

chicken litter sir

what?

litter?

what ?

ummm chicken poop sir

:eek::eek:

ohhhhh...well if you will just sign here I'll be on my way...

and yes the air was just STINKING from the scent of it all...even the local deputies did not stop, just waved and said "if you need us holler" :lol::lol:


as for visiting...ya'll come on down

[patch work farm]

I don't think it needs to get into a nasty discussion, but I do think there are training issues that can be avoided if additional time is put into a youngster, specifically a slow growing warmblood youngster. First of all, they all mature differently, my experience has been that most G line offspring are VERY slow to mature (at least all of mine have been).

I have no problem starting my bigger youngsters in the fall of their 2 year old year...what does this entail? Starting them with tack, moving them into long lining and someone eventually sitting on them. Depending on how they handle that, then decisions as to their progress will move forward or not. There have been several that clearly ended up just turned out for the winter and started in the spring of their 3 year old year (a couple that waited until fall of that year). All of them are individuals and need careful thought put into their specific training plan.

The only time I have ever gotten upset at anyone who purchased one of my youngsters was a guy (who at the time of purchase "said" he was an FEI rider) ended up putting this 2 year old gelding on one of the sale sites with his head tied on his chest in side reins as a 2 year old. I lost my cookies. To date, he is the only one that I have no idea what happened to him and it makes me sick whenever I think of him. I knew that he went to a friend's husband to "undo" some training issues and then was supposed to have been sold but I don't know if that happened. I do think training is quite different with warmbloods, I had one of mine grow until he was 6!

[tri]

I was at the Hedgeland Sale on the east coast a few years back and they had the jumping chute set up for foals (shorter distances than for the horses). All the bigger breeding farms worked their foals through the jumping chute and during the sale, they were run through for the bidders too.

You could really tell a lot about the foals watching the different ones go. There were some that took to it like water, and there were those that, well, they just didn't. While breeding can be a crapshoot, buying a weanling as a riding horse for a very specific purpose is REALLY a crapshoot. If you are a rider, buying a weanling for the specific purpose of hunters or the specific purpose of a high level jumper, picking the foal by the way they go through a jumping chute helps stack the deck further in your favor.

I would never buy a weanling for the purpose of growing it up to be my next jumper or my next hunter without seeing it jump. That would be downright stupid in my book.

[YankeeLawyer]

I was at the Hedgeland Sale on the east coast a few years back and they had the jumping chute set up for foals (shorter distances than for the horses). All the bigger breeding farms worked their foals through the jumping chute and during the sale, they were run through for the bidders too.


I only went to the MAHB sale twice but I never saw any chute there for foals.

And Jessie's Mom, I apologize if you took my comments as being nasty. That was not my intent (and I did say that the filly is very nice, and did not in any way criticize your child because (a) I would never do that and (b) she looks like a lovely young rider and there is nothing negative to say about that). Anyway, I am not trying to raise the issue again, I just felt bad that you felt persecuted or something.

[facinated]

One of the breeders that frequents this board has a picture posted of her 4 month old going through a jump chute

a) I think its insane to even think of sending a baby over anything remotely resembling a jump at that age and I dont care if the "official" line is that "he just went through it himself without us asking him to and we just happened to have a camera on him at the time" and

b) do you feel that what you see as a 4 month old is what you are going to get as a mature horse, form and function wise, over a jump? and:

c) would that sway you one way or the other in buying that youngster based on what talent you did or did not see in that 4 month old jumping photo?
If you are refering to the Silvio filly; that is I believe a single frame isolated from a video of the filly loose in the ring. It just decided to jump the roll top.
However I do not see how letting a baby horse freejump over a 2' jump is any more stressful on them physicaly than running around playing, and bucking in a field. It would certainly be LESS stressful on their legs than having a big strong man hold on while they object to having their feet trimmed.
As far as being a sales tool that filly got sold for plenty of money, in part due to that photo. I show people how my babies jump loose, and it helps a great deal, in selling them.

[Jesse'sMom]

I only went to the MAHB sale twice but I never saw any chute there for foals.

And Jessie's Mom, I apologize if you took my comments as being nasty. That was not my intent (and I did say that the filly is very nice, and did not in any way criticize your child because (a) I would never do that and (b) she looks like a lovely young rider and there is nothing negative to say about that). Anyway, I am not trying to raise the issue again, I just felt bad that you felt persecuted or something.

Thank you so much YL, I appreciate it..This is why i hate these boards sometimes, cause you cant hear how something is being said.

[tri]

Hmm, maybe it was a year you weren't there. Ryland Knoll farm was there free jumping all his foals and a bunch of others.

[YankeeLawyer]

Hmm, maybe it was a year you weren't there. Ryland Knoll farm was there free jumping all his foals and a bunch of others.

I don't think you made it up; I was only there the last two years it was held and didn't see any foal chute. But, I also was only there for the sales presentations, not the previews the Friday night before, so maybe they had it then.

[siegi b.]

Yankeelawyer - it was the year Hedgeland had the MAHB Sales Fest the first day, and the second day other breeds were presented for sale. Windsor Farm put yearlings through the jumping chute....

[TrueColours]

I would never buy a weanling for the purpose of growing it up to be my next jumper or my next hunter without seeing it jump. That would be downright stupid in my book.


Since I am firmly in the camp of:

I-would-never-jump-a-weanling-to-see-what-it-could-do-or-to-sell-it-or-for-any-other-reason, for those that do jump your weanlings for prospective purchasers:

a) does it help get them sold?

b) is what you see as a weanling what you get as a mature horse? Or do some of the fabulous jumping weanlings turn out to be so-so as mature horses or vice versa - those blech or "okay" jumpers turn out to be superstars as they mature???

[tri]

I can tell you that the young ones that I've free jumped, showing a lot of apptitude have grown up to go all the way to GP.

[graystonefarm]

I don't know anyone who would ever buy a weaning for hunter/jumpers without first seeing it jump. A small "x" should be sufficient. I personally would not feel comfortable with anything more.

Foals run and jump stuff out in the pasture so jumping a small "x", done safely, is not going to harm them. I had a Paparazzo filly that I free jumped one day and after I showed her what to do, I could not get her to stop! She was sooooo cute!! I did not sell her off the video, but it did get someone interested enough to fly out and come to see her. And yes, she purchased her and loves her dearly. She went to a super home and it would not have happened without the free jumping.

[YankeeLawyer]

My problem is not so much with the idea of having a weanling pop over a few small jumps. My problem is that unless I know the breeder/trainer and their practices well, when I see photos or video of their weanling jumping I do wonder how much they are doing with the horse and what ELSE they do with their youngsters that early.

[graystonefarm]

YL, I agree 100%.

There is a breeding station in Germany that is well known for preparing their young stallions a little too much. During one stallion licensing in Germany, I unknowingly sat next to one of the Oldenburg board members who had overheard me and a friend commenting after being shocked when one young stallion brilliantly jumped through a shute and then was rejected. He kindly explained to us that it was clear to the judges that the stallion had been too well prepared by the way the young stallion jumped. They want to see raw natural talent rather than manufactured talent.

It should be the same with foals. I think it should only be done once or twice and potential buyers should be shown "raw" talent, not talent that is manufactured or taught.

[LockeMeadows]

One of the breeders that frequents this board has a picture posted of her 4 month old going through a jump chute

a) I think its insane to even think of sending a baby over anything remotely resembling a jump at that age and I dont care if the "official" line is that "he just went through it himself without us asking him to and we just happened to have a camera on him at the time" and

b) do you feel that what you see as a 4 month old is what you are going to get as a mature horse, form and function wise, over a jump? and:

c) would that sway you one way or the other in buying that youngster based on what talent you did or did not see in that 4 month old jumping photo?


I have a beautiful picture of my four month old filly jumping a roll-top. We were shooting a sale video of her and she went over the roll-top that was next to our fence. Once of my clients had been lunging her greenie over it (it had one pole as a side rail, no "shoot" involved). It was set up in a corner of the ring and very heavy to move. I was not going to move it for the video, since the filly could have easily gone around it. We could not have forced her over it, even if we wanted to. Since I was in the process of taping her, we caught the whole thing on video. I then cut the picture off the video. This filly was never sent through a shoot or asked to jump anything. There are two regular COTHers that were present when the video was shoot that can attest to this.

This is a perfect lesson that one should NOT ASSUME THINGS.

ETA: She ended up selling for a lot of money because of her talent.

[3Dogs]

now not "crystal ball", just plain advertising! :lol: :lol: ;)



I think a jump or two out of a babe is no big deal. However, YL and others, I hear you loud and clear! I have chosen not to do it. And, bought baby prospects without a single leap over a single jump to convince me that they may in fact "jump". That I assess by bloodline and conformation, etcetera, etcetera.
I may jump my three year old - maybe - over a fence or two, in a chute style, this year. LOL, let the suspense build:D. But then, I am not trying to sell babies - I hear many a breeder complain that buyers want very young horses shown/video'd doing all kinds of "grown up" things!

[not again]

Over the years we have had many foals choose to (A) jump the four foot stone wall instead of go through the open 14 foot gate (B) go out over the five or six foot fence for not apparent reason. The happy ending is the one we love, as occasionally the big idea ends in disaster. A couple of years ago a friend had a four month old go over six foot wire fence on ice from a standstill, look around and decide to jump back in uphill over the same fence--all successfully. Point being, foals seem to find enough ways to run up a vet bill, or just commit suicide. Crystal ball? Gray hair is more like it!

[graystonefarm]

Lockemeadows, my Samarant colt did the same thing last year while we were taping a video. There was no jump chute and the jump was in the middle of the arena so he very easily could have gone around it but he chose to casually jump over the small "x".

[Private Diamonds]

I have a beautiful picture of my four month old filly jumping a roll-top. We were shooting a sale video of her and she went over the roll-top that was next to our fence. Once of my clients had been lunging her greenie over it (it had one pole as a side rail, no "shoot" involved). It was set up in a corner of the ring and very heavy to move. I was not going to move it for the video, since the filly could have easily gone around it. We could not have forced her over it, even if we wanted to. Since I was in the process of taping her, we caught the whole thing on video. I then cut the picture off the video. This filly was never sent through a shoot or asked to jump anything. There are two regular COTHers that were present when the video was shoot that can attest to this.

This is a perfect lesson that one should NOT ASSUME THINGS.

ETA: She ended up selling for a lot of money because of her talent.


Yes, I would be one of those "cothers" who was present for the taping and we all know what "Assume" means. The filly was never asked to jump the roll top - if you knew this filly you would just say to yourself, "there she goes again" - She is and will be an exceptional horse and her talent speaks for itself. :)

[NoDQhere]

Our babies are raised in a large pasture, on a river, with huge cottonwood trees. There are many "jumps" in our pasture and I've seen the babies jump all by themselves many times :lol:. They also jump off the bank into the river, gallop through and up the other side. I'd feel safe saying they have potential for eventing :lol:.

Seriously, I doubt evaluating a youngsters potential through a jump chute is going to hurt them. I'd worry far more about buying a youngster that was stall raised and "protected":eek:.