Need Help (or Miracle?) - Position Problem

[ytr45]

I'm really frustrated with a persistent position problem I get into with my horse. It happens when we are working on a circle trekking right. (a little background: Going to the right is his very stiff direction where he wants to fall on his inside (right) front leg and hang his head and neck to the outside and go around completely corkscrewed to the outside. And I have to avoid the temptation to pick up on the inside rein to keep him on the circle - I am constantly tempted by this sin!)

So I try to steer him around the circle on the right rein with my outside aids but its SO HARD becuz this is his stiff direction and he doesn't want to turn off the outside aids. So what I end up doing in desperation to avoid picking up the inside rein is to put my whip on his outside shoulder and steer his body around the circle with it.

I guess the real problem - and I'm not sure if this is the chicken or egg - is that circling to the right I start tipping to the inside really bad (centrifugul force ?). The tipping/falling in is so bad that I really can't sit up or sit straight no matter how hard I try. I get this terribly unbalanced feeling of being thrown off to the inside and then I can't right myself. So I loose complete control of the outside aids even more. I get so badly tipped in that my outside hand starts migrating across the neck to the inside. And then I can't turn him around the circle at all.

Teachers have a hard time helping me when I get into this mess, becuz they say "Sit in the middle of the saddle" and I can't do that when I'm falling off to the inside. And they don't have this problem so its hard for them to tell me what to do. And anything I try to do to correct it - such as more weight in my outside sitrrup, just ends up getting my body all corkscrewed.

I will say that the most helpful thing when I get into this messed up position is to counterbend my horse around the circle. That gets us both a little more connected on the outside aids.

What causes a rider to get thrown to the inside of a circle in one direction?
What can a rider do to fix it, especially when they're hanging off the inside completely discombobulated?
How come it feels like there's a huge force pulling me off to the inside and I can't right myself despite all my self will and muscle efforts?
(It just doesn't make sense, that I can stay on a bucking horse or a rearing horse or other challenging scenarios, but I can't right myself once I start tipping to the right ? How hard can that be? I just don't understand it)

Thanks!

[slc2]

practice doing leg yield on the track to the left, so the horse is bent to the right, but be sure to keep a contact with the left rein, and 'push him to the left rein with your right leg'. to start with a leg yield down the quarter line, over to the rail, going clockwise, might be a little easier.

what your instructor is telling you to do, is what you have to do - sit in the middle of the saddle.

no exercise or tip or hint will make that problem go away.

but how.

you can't do that when the horse is off balance.

the horse is off balance because of how the reins are used.

some people do better with that if they drop either the inside or outside stirrup, but the main thing is that you just have to find a way to correct yourself. the start of that is getting an inside bend and that means you can't turn solely off your outside aids or even 51% with your outside aids. it is 50/50, inside aids, outside aids. the more schooled and balanced the horse si the less obvious the aids are, but there is a point in time where you have to fix things and that means you just have to ride in a way that fixes the problem; the way you're doing it actually creates the problem.

stop trying to ride him to the right with only your outside aids. stop counterbending for a little bit, as it can be a kind of copout when it comes to this situation (been there). circles and curves and turns require both reins, inside and outside. you're not bending your horse to the right, this is the biggest part of the problem. he needs to bend to the right, and move away from your right leg, so he can 'stand up' and not lean to the right and fall to the right.

'ride the horse with all your aids, all the time'.

you need all your aids. the circle is ridden with the outside aids AND the inside aids, together. each has a role. doing without one set of aids always causes problems.

if he won't bend to the right, maybe your outside rein is too rigid, and needs to 'give' to allow him to bend right.

[Maude]

Check your position. Are you twisting your body to the outside (left)? If you are doing this you are essentially riding a left circle going to the right. Try turning your shoulders to the inside and opening your inside rein. Keep your outside rein (left rein and do not cross either rein over the neck. If your horse is falling in on his inside (right) shoulder, his withers are tipped in and his nose /head are facing out. By putting his nose in front of him with the inside rein (again, away from the neck, but not backwards) and using your inside leg (do not lift your inside heel or you will push your hips off to the left) you are getting his withers verticle. Think that the withers must always be perfectly verticle not tipping left or right and the horse's nose is in front of him on the track. Lastly after you are sure that you are sitting/turning your body in the direction of travel, put your outside shoulder down. Very hard to explain in just words as I do alot of physical interaction/demonstration when I teach. I have helped many students with similar problems as you are describing by using these techniques. Hope this helps. Remember it's the journey that's the fun part with a few bed and breakfasts along the way to your destination. ;-)

[lstevenson]

Are you saying that you collapse your inside hip? So that your upper body is tilted to the inside, and you hips are sliding to the outside?

If so, there are a couple of fixes. One, step into your inside stirrup when going to the right, which will straighten out your hips and fix your upper body. If you have to, you can position your body slightly to the left which will put your weight back on to the right seat bone. That's probably why counterbending works a bit for you.

You can also put both reins in your left hand, and reach your right arm straight up to the sky. Really reach like you are trying to reach for something on a tall shelf, while stepping into your inside heel.

When you are sitting straighter you will notice your horse turns around the circle better too. It's a vicious circle, the more you collapse your inside hip and your weight goes to the outside, the more your horse falls to the outside to be under your weight. The more the horse falls outside, the harder it is for you to sit straight.

Good luck!

[angel]

You are a very typical rider on a very typical hollow right horse. You and your horse are falling together as you have already determined. (Good for you there!)

You need to help prop up your right side which is falling. That means you need to the horse to help as well. These remedies that I give you are not quite kosher in the dressage world, and they are definitely not something I want to see you doing a year from now. But, what they will do, is begin helping you and your horse straighten.

The first thing you need to do is get the horse to move its right side more forward. The both of you are presently moving with your left sides leading. In order to do that, you must use your whip on the horse's right hind leg. However, for the horse to move that right hind forward, the right front must move more forward as well, so release your right rein and take it forward and up. The movement of your right rein, forward and up, will help you get weight better back to your left side, especially your left seatbone. As this happens, you need to make sure that your left shoulder is well back. Your position in the saddle will almost feel as if you are leaning back on your left side. You want to be able to take weight on your left stirrup, with your heel down, but without pushing your whole leg forward. You want to feel that there is a slight rotation of your left ankle such that the outside of your left foot feels more pressure on the stirrup than it does on the inside of the stirrup.

This movement is to attempt to get your horse's right shoulder to rise into the air. As the rise occurs, gently take back your right rein very lightly. These movements need to happen one on top of the other so fast that the whole sequence might take only a second or two. It needs to be repeated as often as you begin to lose the proper contact in your right rein...maybe every three to five strides on a green horse, or a horse that is very crooked.

It is difficult to determine without seeing you ride, if your reins are the appropriate length for your horse's conformation. What you need to do is pick up the reins until you just barely feel a little greater pressure from the saddle against your inner thighs. For most people, this will feel way too loose. But, this is where the establishing of contact must begin. When you ride, not only do you steer with the reins, but you also steer with your inner thighs. For instance, to bend the horse to the right, there should be greater contact momentarily in your right rein AND against the saddle from your left inner thigh. Over time, there will be less contact on the inside and more just steering by the change in the contact of your inner thighs with the saddle. If you want to test to see how you are doing, set up a line of cones about 12 feet apart. Keeping your reins almost completely loose, bend your horse back and forth through those cones. Try to do it almost completely by using greater pressure on the horse's outside as the results of your ability to create that pressure with your thigh on your outside leg. Make sure that as you bend right, your right leg stays more forward, and as you bend left, your left leg stays more forward. The bend to the left you will not even have to think about. It is the bend to right you must carefully watch, making sure to think about doing a forward leg split with your right leg forward and your left leg back...heels down!!!! So shorten those stirrups if you cannot keep that left heel down.:lol:

[ytr45]

Thanks everyone! This is great food for thought.

Some further questions:

Slc2, are you saying that I should practice Leg Yielding when I’m tracking right (the direction I fall off to the inside)?

Because it seems to me that when I fall to the inside (right) I inevitably start pushing him off the circle to the outside – by accident of course. So it feels like I’m already spiraling out just because I’m sitting cocked over to the inside.
Anyway, I’m sorry but I don’t think I understand your advice. Would you mind clarifying? Thank you.

Maude, I do tend to twist to the left when tracking right (always get told to bring the inside shoulder back). Is this forcing my horse to fall on his inside shoulder?

Lstevenson, Maybe I am collapsing my inside hip. I never thought about it like that, I’ll have to pay attention. Is collapsing one’s inside hip the same thing as tipping/falling to the inside? I think you are right about the vicious circle of tipping to the inside, which forces my horse to fall out on the outside (with his withers tipped in) and then I fall in even more…….

Thank you Angel too for your input.

[Valentina_32926]

When you circle right use outside rein (like you have) give/take on inside rein to try to keep nose to right


And biggest thing

Use right thigh to PUSH inside shoulder into outside (left) rein. This really helped me and my horse. Of course circling right will tire your right thigh so break up the circles with the general "broken line" exercise.

Going right after "A"
1. bend through corner (right thigh into left rein and if horse throws haunches outside to compensate (ask me how I know this) be ready to 'revent that with left leg slightly behind girth and acting as a 2X4 (board) so horse can not throw haunches to outside rather than bend around your right leg.

2. After corner as you come to "K" bend right to 1/4 line, reach 1/4 line bend left to just before "E"

3. Just after "E" back to 1/4 line

4. From 1/4 line to "H"

then repeat thru corner and onto short then long side.

Do this first at walk, then trot, then canter.

When you can do this fine (without problems horse is bending) then repeat but go to center line instead of 1/4 line. NOW your 20 meter circles should be good.

Also check yourself on the circles, during bending, and make sure even though horse is stiff you don't hold on inside (right) rein, you are sitting straight in the middle of your saddle (not allowing horse to make you crooked while you're trying to fix his problem), etc...

My mare loves to "talk" me into riding incorrectly, and if I allow it then we spiral down into crappy riding. But if I just sit correctly (when she fusses) and let her understand I am not changing and trying to correct every little fault (i.e. I push her forward into contact and HH when she starts to rush) then eventually she gives up, settle down and starts listening. Then I can start training her (once I have her mind). :winkgrin:

This will be a re-occurring problem (most likely) so learn how to address it now, fix it, then remember (I take notes) what exercises you did to fix it when horse tries again in the future to do the same thing.

Frustrating buit can be fixed - I just had to be more stubborn than my horse! :lol:

[angel]

I was once told such as Valentine, to use my leg as to "push" a shoulder over. Through many years, I learned just how wrong that is. The portion of the inner thigh that you need to be using is the upper, inner thigh...think groin. When you try to push a shoulder in the fashion suggested, what happens is you actually end up pushing with mostly the knee, or the thigh just above the knee. The reason it works in this direction, i.e. right push to left rein, is that the horse's right shoulder is falling back against the rider's right leg. I would venture to guess that you would not have success in correcting the horse attempting to move the left shoulder toward the right rein by using your left lower thigh. Doing the exercise with only moving a shoulder also means that the other three legs of the horse are still out of balance, especially the right hind. The rider's weight aids which need to come in a large part from the upper body as still not corrected either. Lastly, as you go to doing higher level movements, you will not be able to use that lower portion of your thigh for such a correction without really contorting because the horse's base of support narrows as collection increases. This means that there is less side to side movement of the shoulders, and the rider must bend her body more in order to get the lower thigh to the horse.

Years ago, I was taught that the rider's heel needed to stay down in order to "bulk up" the rider's calf. I passed that nonsense on for quite awhile myself. But, let me explain the real reason for the heel down. It is in order to stretch the muscles along the inner thigh flat, so that the groin area can properly contact the horse's sides during collection. I can remember my instructor having me take a hunk of the fat of the thigh and pulling it rearward. I'll bet many of you reading this have also experienced such instruction. There is a reason, way beyond the fat layer:cool:, and that reason is that it begins to help you get the groin area flat against the saddle...the groin area you need to bend the horse.

[CatOnLap]

LOL. if the shoulder is falling aginst the rider's leg, your legs are way too far forward. I get what you're saying but aren't words inadequate?

The only cure is a good trainer and eyes on the ground, but I'll try with words too.

If you are collapsing over a hip, it puts your weight onto the other side of the horse. Try it in your chair, sit up straight, then curl your body over your right hip by contracting the muscles up your side of your trunk between your hip and your armpit. You will feel like you are leaning to the right. But, the weight will automatically feel heavier on your LEFT seat bone. Your horse will likely tend to move right under the weight to balance you, and this may "push" him out of the circle.

And you say your horse is also contracted in the other direction, that he is "stiff" to the right and bent left( hangs on the outside rein, and is heavier on the inside shoulder on the right rein).

No wonder you feel corkscrewed.

Someone who can sit straight needs to get on your horse and gymnasticize him to both directions so he is less stiff and easily takes up a right circle bend on the aides.
And you need to spend some time stretching and strengthening your own body to make it natural to sit up straight and weight the seat bones evenly. It will be very hard for you to do this on your horse in his present state, and indeed it sounds like you and your pony are making each other's problems a little worse.

A start might be: Every 5-10 minutes during your rides, stop, a nice square halt. Do your preparatory stretching exercise routine for a minute or two and then carry on for another 5 minutes. This way you are constantly checking and stretching yourself to stay even and have a better chance of fixing your horse's problem.

Use mirrors cosntnatly to look at your position, especially those at the ends of the long side. using mirrors help keep our gaze up too.

If you want to try yourself, your horse needs to learn to stretch and bend to the right. I wouldn't worry so much about being on the rein aides at this point. Shoulder in on the open side of a 20 m circle for 3 or 4 strides, proceeding to lengthen stride on the circle for 3 or 4 strides and then let the upcoming wall assist your horse in collecting back to working trot as you ask him to soften and bend with the inside rein as he approaches the wall. This is one of my favourite exercises to correct bend. If the horse makes an effort to correct, then I ask him to stretch his head and back on a long rein for half a circle and repeat the exercise the next time around.

but good luck- that's a pretty advanced but very effective exercise and if you can't get a decent shoulder in, both directions, on a schoolmaster you're not ready to work this horse in it.

[lstevenson]

Lstevenson, Maybe I am collapsing my inside hip. I never thought about it like that, I’ll have to pay attention. Is collapsing one’s inside hip the same thing as tipping/falling to the inside? I think you are right about the vicious circle of tipping to the inside, which forces my horse to fall out on the outside (with his withers tipped in) and then I fall in even more…….



. ./
_/
"
."

:lol: I am obviously no artist, but here's my funny drawing of what happens to your body when you collapse your inside hip (this is a right hip collapsing). You feel like you are falling to the inside, because your upper body leans that way. (The upper body is the slashes. Ignore the dots. It wouldn't let me move the slashes over w/o them.) But your hips (the hyphen) have moved to the left. So your weight is actually off to the left even though you feel tipped to the right. And horses naturally move under your weight, so your horse will tend to fall left with the quarters and get crooked in the body.

As far as the horse is concerned, you are where your center of gravity is. You think you are falling right, but he feels like you are falling left. So you have to bring your hips back into alignment with your legs (the quote marks) and upper body, by doing the excercises I mentioned in the previous post. So that you are like this:


l
l
_
"
"

ETA- I have to say, I have a new found respect for our resident COTH stick artist! Trying to draw with the keyboard is hard!

[Valentina_32926]

The portion of the inner thigh that you need to be using is the upper, inner thigh...think groin. When you try to push a shoulder in the fashion suggested, what happens is you actually end up pushing with mostly the knee, or the thigh just above the knee.

Nope - read again. I stated the thigh, you clarified by saying inner thigh... and if your leg is in the proper position that is the inner thigh. :lol:

[dwblvr]

Make sure you are not gripping too much on the left (outside) rein when going right. I had this exact problem, and it was because of two things - i was holding too much on my left rein out of habit, and it made it impossible for me to "pull" her to the right, because i was fighting myself and my poor horse was getting the brunt of it. Secondly, she wasn't straight and becuase she wasn't straight, i ended up pulling. I used to give about two inches on my left rein when going right on a circle, to where i still had contact, but wasn't holding too much and it solved a lot of my issues. I also really learned straightness - it has made a huge improvement in my riding over the past few years.

[webmistress32]

I found this ole thread. I have a similar problem but in trekking in a circle or tracking around the arena to the right I collapse my outside shoulder.

I think I am riding like I'm going to the left but really I am going to the right.

the right also feels to me to be the horses's "bad side" but maybe this is just because I am sitting incorrectly?

how to fix this.

[goeslikestink]

1st if you have a position problem then dont make it worse by doing circles until you can do straights-- by using the whole of the arena if you have a square one, if not put markers out
in a filed or small paddock and amke a 20 x40 being the smallist or 20 x 60 or 20 x 80
by going straight and lengthening and shortening your strides it would be easier for you if your a novice and new to riding and help your self by looking ahead
once mastered the walk and trot then move on to circles but go large all the way around the arena then smaller so trot all way around then do half which would be say 20mtrs circle track left then go around the arena sitting trot across the school then change onto right rein

and you wont get far if your stirrups arnt at the correct length if odd or crocked then the horse will be,
also if you stronger on your right hand side then give on that side so the horse wont advade you on the left hand side
if howwever you drop your schouders and ride like bunched over and tilted the horse will fall in on that side and you will say hello floor
so sit up chin up frust the bust
look here--
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=168731

[Valentina_32926]

Similar problem - my horse likes to throw me to the right side of the saddle - especially at canter. My trainer has me sitting to the outside (left) of the saddle center (feels like my butt is hanging off the saddle) :lol: and that has helped. :yes:

Happens cause mare gets unbalanced at canter and likes to use rider to shift where she'd rather be, versus where she should be. :eek:

Use inside leg (hip and upper thigh - NOT knee) on horses side to prevent falling in. At same time keep outside rein LOW (with your elbow at your waist) and in contact to keep horse from popping shoulder, then give and take (in conjunction with inside lower leg) on inside rein to get (and eventually keep) the bend. For a 20 meter circle the "give" on the outside rein need only be about 1/4 inch (I always gave "too" much hence my comment), the smaller the circle, the more bend and more give on outside rein.

[slc2]

Slc2, are you saying that I should practice Leg Yielding when I’m tracking right (the direction I fall off to the inside)?

--Yes. Ride around the ring to the right (clockwise), come down the quarter line, and leg yeild back to the rail, away from your right leg.

--Or, ride around the ring to the left, counter clockwise, and staying on teh track and bending the horse's neck to the outside, leg yield again, and you are still leg yielding FROM your right leg.

--consider, though, that no exercise will resolve this if the horse isn't accepting and flowing out to the bit with a contact and a connectedness to the bit. If the horse isn't sufficiently forward and reaching for the bit, he can't be straightened. There may be more fundamental things that have to be fixed before getting the horse more even.

--It isn't so much about which way you leg yield, you should be leg yielding in both directions/positions so your horse is made evenly supple on both sides of his body. It's just that you have to keep in mind that leg yielding from your 'falling in' side helps you to 'stand the horse up' and get him more connected to the outside rein.

--If he's falling in, the outside rein is the one that helps him stand up. That doesn't mean you throw away the inside rein, but it might FEEL like it if you're accustomed to overusing the inside rein.

Because it seems to me that when I fall to the inside (right) I inevitably start pushing him off the circle to the outside – by accident of course.

--Spiraling out and leg yielding, even leg yielding on a circle, are not the same thing. Spiraling out is NOT a lateral exercise like a leg yield. it is a series of circles of increasing size (spiral out) or decreasing size (spiral in). it is NOT a lateral movement.

So it feels like I’m already spiraling out just because I’m sitting cocked over to the inside.

--During turning and leg yielding, one does not sit c0cked, leaned, weighted or anything, one way or the other. Leaning or weighting this way or that just causes problems, it should be a 'leg yield', not a 'rein yield' or a 'leaning weight yield'.

--If the rider is used to drifting off to the outside, he may feel like he's sitting very much to the inside when he's finally correct. if the rider is used to drifting off toward the inside side of the saddle, he may feel like he's hanging off the outside when he's correct.

I'm really frustrated with a persistent position problem I get into with my horse. It happens when we are working on a circle trekking right.

--Tracking. not trekking.

(a little background: Going to the right is his very stiff direction where he wants to fall on his inside (right) front leg and hang his head and neck to the outside and go around completely corkscrewed to the outside. And I have to avoid the temptation to pick up on the inside rein to keep him on the circle - I am constantly tempted by this sin!)

--So you are taking the way he's crooked, and making it even worse, by taking the outside rein to turn, and nothing else. No inside rein, no inside leg. You're actually not connecting him on the outside at all, or using the outside rein to 'stand him up'(that's what it's for, actually)...you're neck reining.

--You have to use your inside rein as appropriate. Using the inside rein is not a sin. I have NO IDEA where you got that idea. Who told you that? It's WRONG. You need to learn to use BOTH reins - the inside and the outside in the right way, in the right amount, each doing their own job, each doign what thye're supposed to be doing. Each rein has a job. You will NEVER straighten, balance, or even STEER your horse by believing it's 'a sin' to use one rein!

So I try to steer him around the circle on the right rein with my outside aids

--let me know when you let go of THAT idea, LOL! You need both reins to ride your horse - to do ANYTHING. Each rein has a job, each rein has something it does IN EVERY MOVEMENT IN DRESSAGE.

but its SO HARD becuz this is his stiff direction and he doesn't want to turn off the outside aids. So what I end up doing in desperation to avoid picking up the inside rein is to put my whip on his outside shoulder and steer his body around the circle with it.

--Get an instructor. This doesn't sound right either.

I guess the real problem - and I'm not sure if this is the chicken or egg - is that circling to the right I start tipping to the inside really bad (centrifugul force ?).

--I don't think that's the REAL problem. I think you are using your reins and other aids incorrectly, so the horse can't figure out or can't do what you want him to do. Get some help - on site, not from a bulletin board. You need to ONE very good instructor, and get rid of some of those ideas of yours.

The tipping/falling in is so bad that I really can't sit up or sit straight no matter how hard I try. I get this terribly unbalanced feeling of being thrown off to the inside and then I can't right myself. So I loose complete control of the outside aids even more. I get so badly tipped in that my outside hand starts migrating across the neck to the inside. And then I can't turn him around the circle at all.

--get an instructor. Your horse is crooked. You're sliding off to the inside. You're positioning the horse so he can't POSSIBLY give you a place to sit on on the right side of his back.

--You DO have to do both things - get the horse more balanced, and try to sit better, at the same time. The two are intertwined. As you ride him better you'll sit better because he will be able to make a place for you to sit on. As you sit better you will be able to ride him better.

--Horses, when weak on one side, try to put us on their favorite side. Too, when a horse is not evenly weighted, and is 'falling in', most people tend to try to 'sit away' from the 'falling in' side. if a horse falls in to the right many will try to sit off to the left. It's is very bad, the rider may slide over to the right because there is nothing on the right side to hold him up.

Teachers have a hard time helping me when I get into this mess, becuz they say "Sit in the middle of the saddle" and I can't do that when I'm falling off to the inside. And they don't have this problem

--EVERYONE had this problem at one time or another. It isn't because they don't have the problem that they can't help you. It's because either you're not getting good instruction or you're not listening to what they tell you to do. EVERY INSTRUCTOR knows this problem, because EVERY horse and rider are to some degree not even and everyone in dressage is constantly working on this. Even a horse that looks very even to the casual observer has to be 'even straighter than that' to continue on up the dressage ladder.

so its hard for them to tell me what to do. And anything I try to do to correct it - such as more weight in my outside sitrrup, just ends up getting my body all corkscrewed.

--Let's say you're falling out a window. You've cleared the window sill, and the drapes, window ledge - they have passed on out of the picture. Buh bye...they're gone. This is not a bugs bunny cartoon where you have 'air brakes' in your feet after you fall out the window. Yiou have to not fall out the window in the first place.

I will say that the most helpful thing when I get into this messed up position is to counterbend my horse around the circle. That gets us both a little more connected on the outside aids.

--And he falls in more. Lovely. You may get him to steer that way, but you're just neck reining, and he's falling in more.

--Turning solely off the outside aids (NOT just the outside rein, in fact, the outside leg, the thigh, specifically, is more of a 'channel' for the horse than the outside rein, but both aids have a role in 'drawing that outside line'.''

--To circle, to turn, to ride around the short sides of the ring, is always the same thing, same aids, all aids working together, each with a job.

--The outside leg and rein make 'the outside channel' of the turn. your horse is like a (somewhat) flexible toboggan going down a toboggan run. The leg and rein on the outside of the horse make that outside of that channel. The inside rein and inside leg make the inside of that channel. You can't turn without using all your aids. The inside leg is constantly preventing the falling in type horse from falling in, so his weight is 'pressed over' toward the outside rein.

--all the aids, but markedly so, the outside rein and inside leg build the walls of that 'channel' for your horse to flow forward in.

--Too restrictive, too tight, not enough of one, too much of the other, a whole side of the channel missing, and that 'channel', that bobsled run for your horse, starts to break down, and ceases being effective.

What causes a rider to get thrown to the inside of a circle in one direction?

--Making her horse fall in by how she rides.

What can a rider do to fix it, especially when they're hanging off the inside completely discombobulated?

--Correct what you are doing wrong in your riding.

--DON'T JUST USE YOUR OUTSIDE REIN - USE YOUR INSIDE LEG!!!!!!!!

--Don't just try to turn off your outside rein, don't give up your inside rein and USE YOUR LEG. USE IT AND GET AN ANSWER FROM THE HORSE EVERY TIME YOU USE IT.

How come it feels like there's a huge force pulling me off to the inside and I can't right myself despite all my self will and muscle efforts?

--you can 'scootch back in to the middle of the saddle all day, and you will fall back to the 'falling side' in a few seconds. You have to make it so one side of the horse isn't falling down!

(It just doesn't make sense, that I can stay on a bucking horse or a rearing horse or other challenging scenarios, but I can't right myself once I start tipping to the right ? How hard can that be? I just don't understand it)

--You need to get rid of your ideas, which are holding you back, and listen to some new ideas for a change. Get with an instructor, one instructor, one good one, and just listen to him or her and do what s/he tells you, not half of what s/he tells you but all of what s/he tells you.

--We all go through this. We are all our own worst enemies.

[KayBee]

I'm having this same problem, but my guy is stiff going track left. The issue is partly fitness but I had one "a-ha" moment this past Sunday. Basically, I get so (over) focused on using my inside leg that I forget all about my outside leg. And outside leg behind the girth, turns out, is part of the secret to getting bend.

So, maybe thinking of what your outside leg is doing (and/or sinking weight into it as per the above poster) will help you out.

[slc2]

The poster didn't say anything about sinking weight into your outside leg. The goal is to have equal weight on each side of the saddle, equal weight in each leg.

When a horse is off balance, leaning or weighting the other side isn't going to fix this. what fixes this is getting him to equally weight his legs. Trying to weight the other side by putting more of your weight on that side, does not work. You make other problems, and make this problem worse.

The key is not just using one's legs and reins, but getting a reaction to them. The rider may say, 'but I'm TRYING!' and the horse is saying, 'not enough'.

Many times, the rider feels he is doing right and it doesn't work. So he changes and tries something else. He goes to another instructor. He asks for help on a bulletin board, LOL. And he keeps trying different things or finds a way to avoid the problem (only outside aids turning, like you're doing), instead of just making the right thing work.

This is very hard to break through at first. Once you've done it you will feel more confident.

I spent many years with an instructor who kept telling me to just scootch back over to the middle of the saddle, that was billed as the whole problem. I spent a VERY long time doing that. It doesn't work - not by itself. the underlying problem has to be resolved. A reaction to the inside leg is needed. An outside supporting rein is needed.

This is kind of like the 'inside leg to outside rein'.

It's as if you get your inside leg to press your horse over to the outside rein, while keeping him mostly straight with that outside rein and holding him up with it, and instead of using the inside rein in isolation to bend him too much to the inside (which makes him fall in), there is just a very slight amount of flexion to the inside, or (during schooling, not showing), occasionally, NO bend or (during other exercises to reach other goals), even a slight counter flexion.

'the outside rein stands your horse up'.

It can't be used in isolation, or without a balance struck with the inside leg.

Your outside rein is your friend. It is your BEST friend, but it is not your only friend,otherwise you're neck reining, and the horse is falling in.

If he's falling in, that rein needs to receive what you push over to it with your inside leg. If that rein isn't supportive (or is just pulling) the game won't work.

The 'supporting' of the outside rein always has to be tempered with its (occasional) OTHER job, which is, to at times, allow some bend in the neck, when need be, such as for a smaller circle, but don't over do, that outside rein should never actually be hanging down or be loose, and HOW supporting it needs to be in various situations is something your instructor has to teach you. When you're working on yiour problem, the outside rein will be more supporting and horse's neck will be more straight.

It doesn't work to try to push him over to the outside rein unless he's connected to both reins and has a basic acceptance of the bit.

None of these bends is ever alot. These bends of the neck are (usually) really rather slight. The horse has to remain connected to the bit and not overbent in either direction. During the leg yield off the quarter line, the horse's neck would be very straight, with just the slightest flexion to the inside, because you're using the exercise to learn how to put your horse more balanced on his legs.

The key is that your inside leg and outside rein together make a place for your butt to sit on the right side. Otherwise there is no place, the horse's back falls away to the right, just as his weight falls away to the right.

The 'stiff' side of the horse, on which he seems to pull harder on the inside rein, is almost always easier to ride. The 'soft' side, where his back falls away from the rider, is usually harder to ride.

Even so, I don't overwork (do more repetitions) on one side because it 'has a problem'. It jsut discourages the horse and makes him sore.

Remember the leg yield left on the rail? That's how you can work on your problem in both directions.

Too, shoulder in right might help if it gets you to use both your reins in coordination, and get a bend without the horse falling in, but it might be a while before you can do this in shoulder in. Leg yield might be a better place to start, or even (I often see it done wrong, but done correctly it can help) turn on the forehand. The key is to make sure the basics are there enough that straightening and balancing work will actually work, and to be sure the horse is reacting to the leg and doing something, that it's effective.

[cheriepony]

find a BALIMO clinic to attend-they will help

[NCSue]

I apologize b/c I have not read everyone's replies. I had a similar issue with my horse and got very frustrated. At that time I was riding with an instructor whose emphasis was equitation. One thing that helped somewhat was to always be aware of my shoulders. However the two biggest fixes weren't me: (1) front feet weren't trimmed properly and while it may seem that feet get overly mentioned they play a key component to a horse's way of going. Many saw my horse and didn't realize or never pointed out that his feet weren't quite right including the vet. You might want to consider taking pics and posting on the health care board for knowledgeable feed back. The other issue was saddle fit. Once both these issues were addressed I no longer had an issue and riding circles were no longer this huge black hole.