Haunches In?

[Daatje]

Could someone explain to me the sequence of aids used when riding a Haunches In?

Mare and I can do a successful shoulder in, both directions, but I'd like to start teaching her haunches in as well and I'm not sure how I should be asking for it. I have an idea, but before I go and confuse her, I would love to hear how others ask their horses for the haunches in.

(We've had to take a break from lessons......$80 a whack was getting to be a bit much :winkgrin:)

So, if you wouldn't mind sharing.....how do you ask your horse for the haunches in? :)

[ironbessflint]

First off, I'd REALLY try to find a horse who knows this and some eyes on the ground while you're learning it. It can be hard to "get" if you've never ridden it before. I don't just mean having the horse do it when you apply correct aides, but if all the lateral work you've done up until now is leg yield and shoulder in, then this is the first time you'll be moving INTO bend. That's as tough for many riders to wrap their heads around as it is for some horses.

All of that said, here you go ;) I'd definitely start at the walk. Also, if you as a rider tend to lean to the outside one way or another, or have a better direction, start out your better direction. Your weight needs to be down in your inside stirrup/seatbone, so if you're prone to sitting to the outside one way, it's not going to work. Also, I keep my whip on the outside so the horse doesn't learn to move into the whip.

I usually ask coming out of the corner, heading down the long side. Inside flexion. Weight down in the inside stirrup. Outside leg BACK and ON (not bumping, just on). Then half halt on the outside rein.

Watch that you don't lose your bend and just start doing a leg yeild at an angle to the rail. The horse should be bent and moving on three tracks, (like shoulder in).

[slc2]

If you haven't done a lot of haunches in on an already trained horse, it is going to be hard for you to learn it and teach your horse at the same time. People have done it but it's harder without the experience.

If you can think of haunches in as a position rather than as a separate specific thing, it can help.

What is the position?

A curve, haunches slightly in off the track, it's just like the last step or two of a circle. When you are just almost back on the track. The horse is curved ('bent') exactly as if he was doing a circle.

He isn't supposed to be straight when doing haunches in, that would be sort of like a leg yield. His whole body is supposed to have a nice, smooth, even, slight curve.

If you don't have a good curve, when you try to push the haunches in, your shoulders and your face, eyes are pointed toward the fence or wall. Your shoulders, face, eyes should actually be pointed right down the track.

Usually, people don't have that perfect at the start. But you should try to develop that.

Usually the person will have one direction where he's pointed the right way when he tries to do haunches in, and in the other direction, he will be pointed at the wall. All the lateral work is usually harder in one direction than the other. The whole key to training is to gradually make the lateral work on both sides equally easy, equally correct.

What is the foundation?

Leg yield on both sides from any position are easy and correct (equally on both sides), circles of sizes to 10 m are easy and correct (equally easy both directions) and shoulder in and turns on the haunches are easy and correct (equally easy in both directions).

What are the aids?

Aids for any lateral work, circle, corner, are always the same, they're all the same. It's just a position. You're always asking the horse to just take on the same kind of position, a curve. The position is just like making a circle.

It is all a matter of just putting enough of each aid in there to get the position you want.

The inside leg at the girth and inside rein make a bend (yes as time goes on the inside rein is less and less obvious). The outside rein and leg keep the horse on the track of that bend. The outside leg behind the girth 'guards' (or moves over to the inside, hint hint) the haunches.

It is almost like you are making a channel, like a bobsled run, for your horse to 'flow' in. Your aids are the 'sides' of the bobsled run. If you only had one side of a bobsled run, the sled would fly off the track. Both inside and outside aids are needed to make a good 'channel'. This is true with circles, lateral work, all the stuff is the same.

You have done circles, right? It is the exact same aids. All the lateral work is the exact same aids as a circle.

How to teach the horse to do this?

It's like mixing warm water from cold and hot, you add enough of each aid to get the position you want. You are already probably used to doing that when doing circles of different sizes, needing a little more bend for a smaller circle, etc. So in a way you really already know how to do this.

So, inside rein and leg to keep him on the track, enough outside leg to get his butt in off the track (a tiny bit to start). You just keep 'mixing' til you get the position you want. THe first time or two, it is a little bit of an experiment to get the horse into the position you want.

How you start the haunches in. Well, it is just like a circle, right? So how about starting it after doing a circle? And all you need to start is just a tiny little bit of haunches in, even just one step is ok, and then walk. If i'm teaching a horse if he even half way tries to do SOMETHING like moving his rear the first time i praise him and walk and that's the end of it for that day.

What are common problems?

The haunches just don't move in off the track. The horse lacks suppleness, so go back to the foundation that has to be good first. Or the horse isn't listening to the outside leg, apply more firmly, back it up with taps of whip, reward any attempt to respond.

The bend is not maintained. Start by doing circles and do only a step of two of haunches in, then go do another circle.

The horse 'falls in' off the track. More inside leg and probably bend is needed.

Some horses with stiffer backs find it hard to do haunches in.

And they may find the idea of moving their haunches in off the track, hard to grasp, but if you have always straightened your horse by bringing his shoulders in, rather than by pushing his haunches out, the horse will still be able to get the idea and physically be able to do it, too.

It's a good idea to make sure the circles are good and the horse is generally supple before doing haunches in. If I'm teaching a horse I do leg yields on the track and circles first to make sure he is really supple. Even though the haunches in isn't at a huge angle, it still demands a lot of suppleness from the horse. The shoulder in shows you can control the position of the shoulders, the haunches in shows you can control the haunches, then the half pass combines control of shoulder and haunch.

Then sometimes you just have to encourage the horse with a firmer outside leg aid and even some little taps of the whip, to get his haunches off the track. Sometimes it helps to do leg yield on the track, but they will still have the problem of then being able to get their haunches in with the correct bend (inside bend) which is the whole idea of haunches in.

[Daatje]

Ironbessflint - Thank-you! Prior to stopping our lessons, my instructor had us doing a "baby half pass" by taking our shoulder in and moving it from the rail to the center line. That is the extent of our knowledge of moving into the bend. :)

I will play with this at the walk and see how it goes. Hopefully I can find someone knowledgable to watch from the ground too.

[Daatje]

Thanks slc2! I will try to think of it that way, as position. And the same combination of aids as riding a circle.

[hessy35]

Could someone explain to me the sequence of aids used when riding a Haunches In?

Mare and I can do a successful shoulder in, both directions, but I'd like to start teaching her haunches in as well and I'm not sure how I should be asking for it. I have an idea, but before I go and confuse her, I would love to hear how others ask their horses for the haunches in.

(We've had to take a break from lessons......$80 a whack was getting to be a bit much :winkgrin:)

So, if you wouldn't mind sharing.....how do you ask your horse for the haunches in? :)

Standing at a halt walk off from the rail at the corner using your aids for haunches in. Make sure the outside leg is back and the inside leg is at the girth. Have your horse bring his hind end in and then ask for a canter on the left lead. I don't know why this works, but you get a great feel for the bend when you ask for the canter from this spot, and it seems to click in your mind how those aids work. Try it, and tell me what happens.

[MyReality]

My instructor taught me to teach my horse through diagonal line. Do a leg yield, let the shoulders lead, it means the haunches are in, then outside leg back maintain the haunches in, then walk forward like a shoulder in.

So key things are, connection with the horse, think of haunches in as positioning of the hind end and maintaining the position, WHILE you ask the horse to go forward. If the horse is stuck or you're stuck, do circles, or leg yield or shoulder in. I don't usually think of it as a 'seat bone' thing. It is a matter of initiating the positioning and keeping it and moving the horse forward... very much like shoulder in and circle, like SLC said.

[goeslikestink]

look here this explains hunches out-- ins are the opposite
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=157236


if you follow to my thread these is a diagram of both 2nd page 2nd postings

[goeslikestink]

whay hey slc2you learnt a lot in 2days -------

[Daatje]

look here this explains hunches out-- ins are the opposite
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=157236


if you follow to my thread these is a diagram of both 2nd page 2nd postings


Great page, thanks for pointing me to it! The diagrams and explanations are very helpful. :)

[Valentina_32926]

Eaiest way is on short side coming into corner

Just before corner rider places their hips to inside track, shoulders straight ahead (opposite of SI), outside leg behind girth pushing horses "hips" to inside track,

then come around corner holding it.

Voila - Haunches In (HI)!

[slc2]

"whay hey slc2you learnt a lot in 2days -------"

thanks for the nasty comment, you'll notice you are making nasty remarks to me and i am not doing the same to you or criticizing what YOU say.

in any case, this is nothing different from anything i have ever written here before on any lateral work. it goes right along with the information i posted on the 'haunches out' and follows the same principles.

the same questions on lateral work come up a zillian times on this bb because people have a tough time learning the different positions and aids, i always post the same answers, the renvers, shoulder in, half pass, haunches in, leg yield, etc have not recently had their definitions changed.

[goeslikestink]

"whay hey slc2you learnt a lot in 2days -------"

thanks for the nasty comment, you'll notice you are making nasty remarks to me and i am not doing the same to you or criticizing what YOU say.

in any case, this is nothing different from anything i have ever written here before on any lateral work. it goes right along with the information i posted on the 'haunches out' and follows the same principles.

the same questions on lateral work come up a zillian times on this bb because people have a tough time learning the different positions and aids, i always post the same answers, the renvers, shoulder in, half pass, haunches in, leg yield, etc have not recently had their definitions changed.



am not being nasty as i am not nasty, but only two days ago on another thread
it was debating of the psuhing of hunches out or to be called hunches out
and you said its not hunches out etc,,,,,,,,, then you cant comment on hunches in can you
if its not hunches out------- unless you learnt that it means the same as renvers and travers as some call it hunches and hunches so therefore you have learnt a lot in two days


remember tho art is a lesson and not a trianer,you said it yourself so therefore you have learnt a lot in two days since last posting
wasnt being nasty was being encouragine so take back what you have pressumed as worng ful or snarky thank you

[slc2]

but only two days ago on another thread
it was debating of the psuhing of hunches out or to be called hunches out
and you said its not hunches out etc,,,,,,,,,

-- I think you need to go back and re-read the discussion. my point was that in renvers, you do not push the haunches out in order to get into a renvers. you bring the forehand in.

--if you move the haunches out to produce a renvers-like angle, you will not get a good score, because it is incorrect.

--if you come in off the track in a leg yield, and push the haunches out to the track, to get into a renvers-like position, you STILL won't get a good score. it's simple. the only way you get a good score in a renvers and do it correctly is by bringing the shoulders in and taking the correct bend.

--the haunches are supposed to be on the track for renvers, not outward, off of the track.

-- the haunches do not go out to make renvers, the shoulder comes in.

-- this is very, very simple. it is incorrect to get into a renvers by moving the haunches out. it's just wrong. it always has been wrong. it hasn't changed in two days. it's very simple. i can't explain it too many other ways.

-- when they first put renvers back in american tests again, people who hadn't been doing it had fits.

-- there were tons of posts on this bb about it. they had ALL kinds of ideas about how to initiate it and all of them avoiding the requirements and the definition of renvers and over complicating it. none of them are correct.

then you cant comment on hunches in can you

-- that's not snarky? stop kidding yourself. it's meant to be, and it is.

--obviously i can, and did comment. anyone with the most basic knowledge in dressage could comment, this is not rocket science.

--what you don't understand is that the two things are very different. i will try going over it again:

-- 1.) haunches in is a scored movement that appears on dressage tests. it is called travers.

-- 2.) haunches out is not on any test, there is little agreement about its form, definition or value.

-- 3.) if you try to do a renvers by moving the haunches outward, off the track, you don't get as good a score as if you did it correctly. doing it that way is incorrect. the whole point of renvers is that you can do shoulder in, change nothing but the bend and be in renvers. that's just how it is. i can't say it any plainer. if you go in a test and push the haunches out, you're going to get a crappy score and a comment from the judge. i didn't define that. it's been that way forever. that's just how it is.


if its not hunches out------- unless you learnt that it means the same as renvers and travers as some call it hunches and hunches so therefore you have learnt a lot in two days

-- haunches out will never mean the same as renvers and travers. i can't learn that in two days because it's incorrect, and if i said that to my trainer or anyone else, they would slap me upside the head because it's wrong.

--i got very supportive pm's on this, all the same, one gal said, 'if i said that to my trainer she'd wap me on the head'. it's just wrong. i can't help you any further than that. you have to figure this one out for yourself. you've been given the information, that's as far as i can go.

-- they are three different things.

-- haunches out is not travers.

-- haunches out is not renvers.

--this is where you are wrong. you want to call these movements something they're not.

-- the aids for the lateral work all conform to the same concepts of creating a bend, controlling the haunches. if the aids weren't logical, horses could never learn them.

-- that doesn't change the definition of renvers, travers, haunches out, how they are produced, whether they're in tests or not.

-- you're welcome to call anything anything yiou want, i don't care, but try not to go after me about it, i don't care if you fervently believe something that's wrong or not, that's not my problem.

remember tho art is a lesson and not a trianer,

-- don't understand what this means.

-- anyone who has shown, ridden, trained their own horses, lessoned, knows these things and can comment on them. this is basic, basic, basic stuff.

--no one could possibly show in dressage and show these exercises and think haunches in, renvers, haunches out, were the same things, because the judge would tell them they are not the same thing.

you said it yourself so therefore you have learnt a lot in two days since last posting

-- i learn things every single day, but a new definition for haunches in, renvers, and haunches out, no.

-- that has not changed in my mind in the last 48 hrs.

wasnt being nasty was being encouragine so take back what you have pressumed as worng ful or snarky thank you

-- saying to someone something like that and the above is catty and is meant to be catty, and no, i am not 'taking back anything i have presumed'.

-- you are trying now to tell me haunches out, travers and renvers are the same. it's just incorrect. they aren't. i can't help you any further.

-- and nothing, absolutely nothing i have said in the other thread, or here, suggests they are, because they aren't the same. this is just not rocket science, it hasn't changed in many hundreds of years, and it didn't change in the last 2 days.

[egontoast]

Good God, slc.

Take yourself too seriously much?

Being Right is not everything.

Which is a Good thing, in your case.

PS As you well know, the issue on the other thread was not whether you move the haunches or the shoulders ( I'm guessing 99.9% of the posters here know that you do not push the haunches out in renvers ) but that you railed on and on about how haunches out was not the same as renvers ( although, gee, most BNTs and their students use them interchangeably without managing to get confused about what that means. )

You have invented some other animal and will never admit you are wrong.. Good luck if you ever ride in a clinic with someone more knowledgeable than you think you are, which leaves the field quite open.

[hessy35]

Someone has way too much time on their hands.

[FriesianX]

SLC, I think the issue people had with Renvers/Haunches Out in a recent round of competition tests at 2nd level was not how to ride Renvers, it was how to handle the transition from Shoulder In to Renvers. It was the first time this combination had been used in our US dressage tests. People know how to ride Haunches in and out (aka travers and renvers), but the combination that is shown in 2nd Level Test 4 was a new thing. And it was not just confusing for competitors, it caused great discussion amoung judges as well.

US riders know how to ride these movements, but ANYTIME a new complex movement or combination of movements is introduced, it causes much discussion. Another example was the 2nd level "stretch canter circle". That movement proved to not be functional and was removed from the next set of tests.

I'm kind of curious - how many times have you shown the 2nd level tests with these movements? You DO need to displace the haunches for haunches out/renvers - the hind legs must cross, which means they are not moving straight on the track. The inside (to the bend) hip must lower. You don't like the term push, but there is maintenance and movement created by that outside leg throughout the movement - whatever you want to call it. In layman's terms, I like push.

In Travers the rule books says the quarters are moved inward. Renvers is then described as the inverse movement, with the same principals and conditions.

In the rule book, there is no reference to haunches IN or OUT, but it is common to call the exercises in this way by many including Kyra and even WAZ uses the terminology "Renvers (Haunches Out)". It is common to refer to it either way. I've audited many a clinic where judges (as clinicians) swapped the terms back and forth, so I disagree with your comment that a judge would not recognize these as the same movements.

The purpose of these movements is NOT just to create bend - we have circles for that. The purpose of these movements is also to lower the horse's hindquarters - to help develop collection.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, just point out some realities.

[goeslikestink]

slc2 - you not the be all and end all, you not god, your not a guru in dressage
and i dont claim to be either
as for you saying am snarky ha ha get a life,

you picked up on my hunches and hunches bit knowning full well i missed out hunches out and hunches in- ie the in and out bit

knowing full well that it takes me ages to write a post due to my writing problem
as most know i have trouble with that bit,

so if thats not being rude i dont know what is -- but i havent turned round and called you nasty or snarky i just accept it ------
but

that doesnt give you the right to turn round and say i dont know what i am doing in not so many words as you have put it......

now let me explain - when a lesson learns something whatever it may be one likes to encourage that lesson with words of glee--- thats not being snarky or catty its being
ie brillient -- you have got something well done type thing

obviously-- you dont get english sense of humour---- of pride or proud of you-- doh

[~Freedom~]

Hey slick, the offer to come and have me show you how to ride ALL the lateral moves on my schoolie and how to go from one to the other is still open.....;)

[hitchinmygetalong]

I am still waiting for this answer directed to slc2 from FriesianX in her excellent post #18:

<snip> I'm kind of curious - how many times have you shown the 2nd level tests with these movements?

FriesianX, thank you for your post. I found it very well-written and, more importantly, very understandable.

[merrygoround]

Here I agree, FriesianX's comments are right on, all around.

:(Some of us are all too facile with the keyboard. Less so with their brain. :lol:

[NRB]

odd thing here.......... I think of having the horse wrap himself around my inside leg (seat bone really) , my outside leg never pushes the haunches over like some posters have written. But rather my outside leg is place behind the girth. Draped like a wet cloth. Its the slight weight of my inside seat bone that the horse responds to and bends around and moves toward.....I am NOT saying that I am correct or right....just saying thats how I do it on my horse that I've taught myself, as well as on the I-1 Schoolmaster I learned from. I have watched riders on the same Schoolmaster do half pass and use wayy too much outside leg, as if there were muscling the horse over....really all you have to do is use weight aids in your seat and the horse responds nicely.

Just my beef that I see too many riders useing exaggerated leg aids when a subtle weight aid in their seat bones would suffice.....

Again the usual disclaimer, I compete 1st level and am a greenie compared to many.