Talk to me about breeding

[Coobie]

Let's pretend that I know nothing about breeding, pregnancy, foaling and foal care.
I am starting to consider breeding my mare. I know I would want to find a quarter horse/paint stud. I'm not looking for a stallion right now as it would be a few years before I could afford to breed anyway.
So share with me any and all info you guys have. Like good age to bred, care for the mare during pregnancy, anything.....................

[Laurierace]

Well I am going to do my best to resist the urge to tell you not to do it, and instead recommend the breeder's bible "Blessed are the Broodmares" Most likely that book will talk you out of it for me.

[Coobie]

Well I am going to do my best to resist the urge to tell you not to do it, and instead recommend the breeder's bible "Blessed are the Broodmares" Most likely that book will talk you out of it for me.

Honestly, I'm not going to get the book so PLEASE share with me your opinions!!!

[Laurierace]

Ok my opinion is if you are not willing to invest in a book to advance your knowledge, you have no business breeding horses. Probably not what you are looking to hear, sorry. Maybe check this out, its free.
www.FHOTD.com

[kellyb]

Ok my opinion is if you are not willing to invest in a book to advance your knowledge, you have no business breeding horses. Probably not what you are looking to hear, sorry. Maybe check this out, its free.
www.FHOTD.com

Ditto. Breeding is not butterflies and rainbows, and there are a lot of unwanted horses in this world as it is. Please keep that in mind.

[Coobie]

Come on guys! I'm just looking for your knowledge! I would plan on keeping the baby. Instead of saying I shouldn't do it, tell me why.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

Honestly, I'm not going to get the book so PLEASE share with me your opinions!!!

If you aren't going to get a simple book that is actually a nice read then you probably don't have any business breeding your mare. In a dream world it is a simple boy meets girl, girl has baby and everyone lives happily ever after. However, there are far to many what if's and potential problems for anyone to consider breeding their mare on a lark. Check out some of the sad stories in the Sporthorse Breeding Section.

[Coobie]

However, there are far to many what if's and potential problems for anyone to consider breeding their mare on a lark.

THIS IS WHY I'M ASKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not a lark, I'm trying to start gathering and researching and learning now so in a few years I will know if I am in a position to do this or not!

[pintopiaffe]

OK, but folks have just listed two really good resources.

Blessed are the Broodmares is The Bible for first time mareowners. Period. Neither Laurierace nor any experienced breeder is going to spell out every thing that can go wrong and all the little intricacies involved.

Go to the Sporthorse forum here. It's a wealth of info. Click on the topics. If you don't understand what they are saying, google it.

Seriously, if you can't do both of those things, no way you should be dealing with genetics, teasing, ovulation, ultrasounds, gestational nutrition, neonatal issues...

It's great you're looking for information. We're telling you where to find it.

[equinelaw]

There are already too many horses. One reason why not to breed is that if you can provide a good home, then do so for a horse that already needs one, or will need one in a few years.

Its cheaper, easier and faster to get a horse near riding age or already started under saddle. If you simply must have a cute furry baby to love then consider fostering an already bred rescue or re-homing a pregnant mare.

There just are not enough homes for the offspring of the most succesful and experienced breeders. There is no reason to ad one more horse then we have now, but it might be easier to never strt then to learn to stop when your livlihood depends on it.

That is why not.

Now you tell us why?

[Coobie]

I'm told to buy a book to talk me out of something I'm interesting in doing, and now I get crap for saying no thanks to the book?

I find the topic in H/J more and more interesting regarding asking questions to gain knowledge.

[Coobie]

Now you tell us why?

Seriously? So you guys can jump all over me?

[DeeThbd]

Going to pitch in from someone from the point of view of someone who now exclusively owns geldings so I am never tempted to breed.
It's kind of a parallel with human children.....in an ideal world, pregnancies are uncomplicated, beautiful events, the babies are born whole and normal and go on to lead happy, productive lives.
We all know that in the real world, there are SO many variables for humans and horses. Yes, I know we can't live cringing from the "what-ifs", but blindly ignoring them is unwise too.
Some of the things people have talked about in the breeding forum are heartbreaking - and these are EXPERIENCED people who have invested in every possible "parachute" to ensure success, as their livelihoods often depend on it. Still, sh*t sometimes happens....a breech birth, prolapses, ruptured arteries, you name it. There is no more helpless feeling that no matter what you do, no matter what you know, you can do nothing to change an outcome. THAT is anguish that I would wish on no-one.
On a less emotional and more practical level.....I will use the racing industry as my example.
It is FAR FAR cheaper to buy or claim a horse who is already successful than it is to breed one....take into the equation stud fees, mare care, vet bills, breaking and so on for a horse with NO guarantees.....where instead you can look at a prospect, see its conformation, know that it has "made it" this far....in fact, the same parallels can be made with buying a saddle horse - good broke ones can be had for less than the price of breaking one these days, let alone breeding it. If a person wanted to be part of the miracle of birth, there are breeding farms all over who might be willing to allow a quiet spectator or share a video.
Dee

[SLW]

How old is your mare?? An older maiden mare can be harder to get bred. It may take two or three cycles to get her bred, at all.

Is the mare kind and easy to work?? That will make her reproductive exams go smoother.

Are you considering live cover or AI? Live cover is less expensive but has it own set of risk to your mare. AI is more expensive but allows you to shop anywhere for a stallion that ships semen. For AI breeding figure anywhere from minimun of $250-$350 per cycle plus another $150 to have the semen shipped in and return the container. Semen collection cost will run $200 and up per collection.

If you foal out the mare alone you'll have only lack of sleep invested and you could get lucky and she would foal on time. Figure a well foal check by the vet of $150 to check IGG levels and basic physical exam on the foal. If you send her out to foal then you'll have their foaling fee which tends to be $300 plus board and vet exam.

There is always the risk of a foaling complication where you could loose the mare to a bleed out. So, if she is your forever and ever "would throw myself under the bus if I lost her", think hard about breeding her.

Do you have a good equine vet nearby? You really need access to one rather than asking a general large animal vet to help you with breeding work.

Hope this helps.

[Coobie]

SLW- Thank you!!

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

I'm told to buy a book to talk me out of something I'm interesting in doing, and now I get crap for saying no thanks to the book?



Oh no! The point of recommending Blessed are the Broodmares is that it is an amazing resource for first time mare owners or anyone interested in breeding!! The book if memory serves doesn't try to talk you out of breeding but is an excellent reference to learn from.

That is why is is recommended!

[AppJumpr08]

There are some really good books out there, and some fantastic advice to be found on the Sport Horse Breeding forum.

I'll second what both DeeThbd and SLW said, only I'd add that you should plan on spending twice the $$ that you think you will when you're budgeting before you start the process. Don't forget that the mare will need vaccines several times throughout her pregnancy, and will go through WAY more grain and hay then she would without a baby once she is lactating.

Breeding is an expensive, priceless, breathtaking, exhausting, devastating, heartbreaking, and wonderful experience... You just have to be prepared for all of the ups and downs before you jump on the ride!!

[hansiska]

If you want to breed your mare, you have every right. I, for one, am pleased that you are starting to get info now even though you don't plan to breed for a few years.

What do you need to know? LOTS! And it takes a long time and lots of money to learn! (At least it did in my case.) I just wrote an article for my GMO about this topic and talked to a number of first-time breeders who had varying reactions to their choice. Ultimately, it's a personal decision and it's up to you.

In my experience, breeding is one of the toughest realms of horse ownership, but I'm completely hooked. There's nothing more beautiful to me than a pregnant mare. Just know that the highs of breeding are very high (there's nothing like watching your mare deliver safely and seeing that foal take its first steps; a two year old I bred place sixteenth in the country last year and I experienced going to show after show and having great success with him) and the lows are very low (lost a five month old foal; had to put down a dear broodmare this year; lots of bills trying to get her pregnant last year and the year before). It's a huge emotional and finacial investment.

I can say that I've heard more than one person say "don't read Blessed are the Broodmares" because it presents too many worst-case scenarios and scares people away. I own it and recommend it. But I get the feeling you're looking for more general advice for the time being.

I'd be happy to tell you more, and share the article I wrote, so feel free to email me.

I also suggest that you ask the moderators to move this thread to the Sport Horse Breeding section of this bb. You'll get very specific advice there.

[desilu]

What SLW said is just the tip of the iceberg.

Things to help decide:
If it's a keeper foal, are you perfectly happy with a clone of your mare in every way.

Breeding is a money pit from the moment you decide to take the plunge and pick the perfect match for your mare. Best case scenario - she's in perfect breeding health and will catch on the first try. Worst - you can try all year long spending a lot of money and time and heartache only to have no foal to show for it.

It's harder than you think to get a mare in foal and then harder than you think to get her to carry it to term.

Delivery is a dangerous proposition and if you are very, very lucky you end up with no problems and a healthy happy foal that you are happy with.

There is also the strong possiblility you end up with a sick/dysmature/unhealthy foal that you loose in the end or that your mare does not survive the foaling.

Then you have your happy healthy foal and they can do all sorts of interesting and adventurous things to themselves to self destruct.

Hopefully you have the knowledge/experience or help to raise them to happy healthy, riding age and get them started under saddle.

If all goes well, it's the best thing in the world but you also have to know that there is a very strong risk that something or other will go wrong and you have to be prepared either with knowledge or someone nearby who has the knowledge to assist......as well as a very healthy bank account and insurance.

My advice, hang out on the breeding forum during breeding/foaling season and listen and learn. You will hear all about the good, the bad and the ugly.

[MaresNest]

I think the disconnect here is that the folks who know a lot about breeding know that there is no way on Earth that they could encapsulate what you need to know about breeding in an internet bulletin board post. You've asked such a broad question that no one feels like they can answer it in any shorter format than Blessed Are the Broodmares. (Which, by the way, you really do need to read. In a perfect world, no one would be able to access horse semen without having first read and then taken a test on the material contained in that book. ;) )

Having said that, here are a few key points I think everyone who considers breeding horses should really think hard about:

1.) The mare may die. And though mare fatalities are rare, when they happen, they are very gruesome and very painful. Because of this, it is our utmost responsibility as horse owners to be as educated as possible, in close contact with our veterinarians, and extremely watchful of our mares. A typical birth is over in 30 minutes or less. You have almost no time to correct a problem, and you cannot rely on your vet to bail you out. You must be able to recognize problems and take action on them immediately. This is why everyone is saying that you need to read Blessed Are the Broodmares. And, I might add, any other reputable book on foaling you can find. We can, as a group, come up with several more, I'm sure, if you're still interested.

2.) The foal may die. This is more common than mare fatalities are. It could happen early, and you and the mare might not even notice. She's just suddenly not pregnant anymore. Or it could happen as late as during the birthing process. In that case, it will be awful and traumatic for both you and the mare and anyone else involved. The foal may have to be cut into pieces to be removed from the mare, or the mare may have to be sent to a surgical facility for an emergency c-section. You will also have invested a lot of time and money and see no return on it.

3.) There can be post-foaling complications. Mares can founder if they retain even a small piece of the placenta. They can have a uterine artery rupture, which will almost certainly be fatal. Mares can reject their foals. Mares can attack their foals. Foals can be dysmature, premature, or comatose. The mare might not produce milk. Or she might produce milk but not colostrum. In either case, the chances of losing the foal are high. Bottle or pan feeding a foal is much harder than it sounds.

4.) The foal might be born with crooked legs or a missing eye or club feet or contracted tendons or some other deformation. Or, it might be born sound but grow up to be completely unsuitable for the discipline you ride in. Or, maybe it will turn out to be too small for you. Or too big.

5.) Backing up, getting a mare pregnant is not always a simple task. You may spend hundreds or thousands of dollars trying to get her pregnant, and not ever get a foal. The stud fee may (or may not) be refundable, but the vet fees won't be.

6.) There are A LOT of great horses in the world already that need loving homes. Particularly Quarter Horses, which you said you were interested in.

Now, does all this mean that you shouldn't breed your mare? Not necessarily. But it does mean that you need to educate yourself and do some serious soul searching first. I understand why you are put off at being brushed off with two line replies and told to go buy a copy of Blessed Are the Broodmares. But please see past the gruff responses and take the time to educate yourself anyway. You owe it to your mare. We all owe it to our mares.

And none of us can tell you everything you need to know. You'll have to piece all the information together from books and chats with your vet and classes and videos and observation and conversations with experienced breeders. This board is a great resource, but it is best used for targeted questions like "When do I need to take my mare off fescue?" and "Who has had a dysmature foal and how did they turn out?" rather than broad questions like "Tell me what I need to know about breeding."

It's good that you're starting to gather information now. Good luck.

[hansiska]

Excellent post, Maresnest!!!

[Frank B]

I'm told to buy a book to talk me out of something I'm interesting in doing...
The book was not written just to "talk you out of something". It was written to inform the reader of the decisions they'll face, including whether or not to breed. The book was also written before the "surplus horse" problem became so acute.

[Fairview Horse Center]

If you are really intrested in breeding your mare, find a local breeder from your vet that is breeding the type of horses you want, and having good long term success with their under saddle stock. Volunteer to help them with their foalings, and youngstock, in exchange for mentoring. You will learn a tremendous amount, see the plusses and minuses, and hopefully they can guide you in the selection of suitable crosses to accomplish your dream.

[pintopiaffe]

MaresNest nailed it. What we were trying to say.

Honestly, I saw the first few posts --and responses-- and they looked to me like the teenagers or young college students who come on here asking about their thesis topic and expect US to answer it.

If you're defensive now, you're never going to have the thick skin needed to ask for stallion opinions (based on your mare's conformation, strengths, *flaws and weaknesses.*)

While on the one hand I agree with those who say there are already too many horses, and it is cheaper/a more sure thing to buy a youngster... I also KNOW the difference it makes when you take a PURPOSE BRED horse into it's career.

It's sort of like the difference between my rescue-mutt and my labrador when it comes to water. The former doesn't want to go out the door if it's raining... the latter can't be kept out of the water trough-bathtub, not to mention puddles, ponds, streams, lakes, the ocean.... :lol:

[goodmorning]

What are you breeding your QH horse for? Do you do the AQHA stuff?

Just because someone is breeding a QH, does not mean that they are breeding a low quality animal. The QH industry is quite diverse and has some great futurities that pay out big money - but of course you have to be competitive ;) And, a lot of these QH price-tags will knock the socks off of most WB sport-horses, which may be the reason to breed one that is of that same high quality. My neighbor breeds a couple QH's every year, and if for sale, they bring in high 5-figure amounts before they are weaned - so anyways, just because someone is breeding a QH doesn't mean they are doing anything differently then any other breeder on this board - breeding to produce a high-quality animal for a specific purpose. If you are breeding for a highy-competitive QH, I can assure you that it is not anywhere near cheaper to go out and buy one ;)

Everyone else has covered the other bases, and do buy the books, great way to educated yourself and serve as refrences for future purposes :yes:

[Ajierene]

My advice on breeding - coming from someone that has never bred before but plans on breeding her mare next year.

If you don't have experience, find people that do that can help you out. My trainer is helping me find a stallion (and it seems to be almost as exciting to her as it is to me). She is being honest about my mare's confirmation and what I should be looking to keep and 'replace'. Also, the possibility of getting something completely FUgly.

find a good repro vet - I am in the process now. Make sure it is someone that can come at the drop of a hat.

Be prepared to be up all night for a while. Do not read the sporthorse breeding forum to much - there is a lot of bad things that happen that people post on this board and it would give you the impression that every pregnancy is a danger. The people that own the place where I board my mare do not worm or give shots - bred their stallion to three different mares for a total of four foals, all healthy and happy and uneventful pregnancies and deliveries.

If you are breeding for your own purposes and plan on keeping the foal for its entire life, then go right on ahead. Yes, bad things can happen, but great things can happen as well.

Why I am I breeding instead of buying in this market overfilled with horses? I want something with warmblood in it - something with more substance than my thoroughbred mare. I can go look at warmblood babies, and they are going to cost about $3K. With an average stud fee of $1500 and about another $1500 in vet fees - I am looking at the same price when the foal drops.

Looking at a yearling or two year old will be more money, and the same price or less if I look at the price of a young warmblood and compare it to the above fees and boarding fees.

It is a risk, but for me, a calculated risk. While I plan on keeping my mare and her foal for the rest of their lives, and things may happen where I cannot - the same is true if I buy a young horse.

EDIT: I do notice that some of the people saying do not breed are breeders themselves. If they are that concerned about the state of the equine world in the US, maybe they should cut back their own breeding.

[YankeeLawyer]

Do not read the sporthorse breeding forum to much - there is a lot of bad things that happen that people post on this board and it would give you the impression that every pregnancy is a danger. The people that own the place where I board my mare do not worm or give shots - bred their stallion to three different mares for a total of four foals, all healthy and happy and uneventful pregnancies and deliveries.

Okaaayyy.


I can go look at warmblood babies, and they are going to cost about $3K. With an average stud fee of $1500 and about another $1500 in vet fees - I am looking at the same price when the foal drops.


A good WB foal typically costs several times more than 3K. Breeding costs also typically far exceed 3K per foal.



EDIT: I do notice that some of the people saying do not breed are breeders themselves. If they are that concerned about the state of the equine world in the US, maybe they should cut back their own breeding.

I think there are legitimate concerns being voiced at the prospect of what appears to be indiscriminate breeding. I breed, but I typically have offers for my foals while they are still in utero (and last year had waitlists) and I have a farm and do not have to sell anything I breed. If my goal were to produce a foal worth 3K when it hit the ground, I would buy, not breed. It make no sense to me to aim to produce a very ordinary horse.

[Ajierene]

good WB foal typically costs several times more than 3K. Breeding costs also typically far exceed 3K per foal.

You prove my point about one of my reasons to breed opposed to buy.

I think there are legitimate concerns being voiced at the prospect of what appears to be indiscriminate breeding. I breed, but I typically have offers for my foals while they are still in utero (and last year had waitlists) and I have a farm and do not have to sell anything I breed. If my goal were to produce a foal worth 3K when it hit the ground, I would buy, not breed. It make no sense to me to aim to produce a very ordinary horse.

The comment not reading the breeding forum to much is that while you can learn stuff, there are far more threads (for good reason) about problems than there are when everything goes right. It can just freak someone out to the point where they overmanage and cause problems from overmanaging.

I am not sure where the disctintion is in 'indiscriminate breeding'. A top breeder breeds to sell for a particular market or discipline. Someone breeding for their own desires. Breeders sometimes question the market and how they cannot sell their horses (there is a thread about a gray going on right now and there was the Oldenburg filly that went to the benefit auction), but the original poster is breeding for herself, a horse that she will keep herself. She already has an owner for the horse.

I am sure it takes many years to build up a reputation good enough to sell foals in utero, and it is great that you have that business - but how many people are out there breeding the same breed as you that are having trouble?

All I am saying is that I think a breeder should not be telling someone they should not breed because there are so many horses out there. To me, it is hypocritical. Caution, yes - flat out NO, like some people on this thread did, not at all.

You have a guaranteed home for all your foals, so does she - so what's the problem?

[YankeeLawyer]

I am sure it takes many years to build up a reputation good enough to sell foals in utero, and it is great that you have that business - but how many people are out there breeding the same breed as you that are having trouble?



Same breed...I have no idea. Same niche / market within that breed ... the other breeders
I know are doing VERY well.

[europa]

To answer your question breeding is never what it seems and exponentially more expensive then you plan on. My breedings all cost about 1k each cycle and then there is the stud fee. I have no idea what the type you are considering would cost so I cannot guesstimate. Then there is the maintenance of the mare for the duration....the whole birthing experience and then you have the years until you back the baby. Do you have experience backing and training a youngster?

Because as we all know the world needs another backyard baby bully that no one has worked with and forgotten. That is really sad for the animal. I am not thinking there is much of a market for that type of foal so you better know that you will be keeping the baby and hopefully you will have a sound horse. There are no guarantees with anything to do with horses except they WILL break your heart at some point and they WILL cost you a buttload of money getting you to that point.

Are you scared? If not then blissfully wade in the water with us and one day you will wake up and say WTHWIT.

[Coobie]

Please let me apologize for my defensive nature in the beginning. I was just surprised with the responses I received.
Please let me explain. The mare who is actually my mother's is an absolutely fantastic girl. there is really no way to describe how wonderful she is. I have had her since she was a yearling and she continues to amaze me all the time. My mother adores her, she adores my mother. My mother and I are extremely close. I know that the mare will be my connection to my mother when she(mom) is gone. So for sentimental reasons I was starting to think about breeding so when I no longer have the mare or mom, I would still have a connection to both of them. However, the what if of losing the mare may be to big for me to chance. Also, she is ten now so maybe I'm already too late.(?)
I have quite a bit of experience training/backing youngsters. I also have some knowledge/experience with the foaling process. I used to teach at a breeding farm.

So I just wanted to explain the sentimental reason behind my why.

[MaresNest]

However, the what if of losing the mare may be to big for me to chance. Also, she is ten now so maybe I'm already too late.(?)


Ah, I can understand where you are coming from there. My one and only baby is from my once-in-a-lifetime-absolutely-amazing-godsend mare. For years I couldn't bring myself to breed her because I was afraid of something bad happening to her. But eventually I decided that she was too nice a mare to not pass on her genes, and - with great trepidation - I bred her. And, thank God, everything went fine.

I just think it's really important for everyone to know what the risks are before making the decision, and to use those 11 months to learn everything you possibly can about helping a mare during a problem delivery.

I sort of look at like like trailering. Horses that die in trailer accidents die horrible, frightening, painful deaths. But we humans can take steps to make trailer accidents very, very rare. And, as a result, horses all over the world ride in trailers everyday without incident. When the accidents happen, they are horrific, but good horsemanship can prevent a very large percentage of them from ever happening in the first place. There will always be some risk, but the more we know and the better prepared we are, the smaller the risk becomes.

Also, ten is not too old. My mare was 17 when her one and only foal was born. The most common problem with older mares is getting them pregnant in the first place. If you can get them pregnant and keep them pregnant, they seem to do fine. It is common, though, for the first foal of an older maiden to be small. But I'd rather it that way - small and easy for the old girl to deliver - than the opposite. My mare's foal was tiny but healthy, and I thanked my lucky stars.