Isabell Werth and a small reality check for the horse-poor

[J-Lu]

As I was flipping through the June 9 COTH (the dressage issue) that I had flipped through before, I was newly struck by the "Barn Spotlight" feature that this time illustrated Isabell Werth's barn. There's a picture of her schooling Warum Nicht in what looks like a forward piaffe or passage steps in a snaffle bridle and what looks from the flap to be the synthetic version of the Wintec Isabell saddle (plus moss green polos). As a very horse-poor person, it is inspiring to see a World Champion on a World Champion horse schooling GP movements in an off-the-rack synthetic saddle and a snaffle. Things like this give me a bit of perspective sometimes. Just thought I'd share... :)

PS. If it's a special custom space-age polymer version of the saddle molded to W.N.'s back specifically for her by 13 master saddlers at Bates, please don't tell me!

[MEP]

PS. If it's a special custom space-age polymer version of the saddle molded to W.N.'s back specifically for her by 13 master saddlers at Bates, please don't tell me!
:lol::lol::lol:

[2boys]

I am thinking of buying the Isabelle Wintec saddle (have it on trial). That is a nice endorsement! Like the OP said, don't tell me if it is not REALLY the saddle.:D

[Phaxxton]

I am thinking of buying the Isabelle Wintec saddle (have it on trial). That is a nice endorsement! Like the OP said, don't tell me if it is not REALLY the saddle.:D

I have this saddle and I LOVE it. I bought it from a friend of mine who actually let me ride in it for several months before buying. (We were sharing our saddles at the time.)

I never thought I'd really love a synthetic saddle, but this one is fabulous. (I have the Wintec CC, too, which I don't like nearly as much as the Isabell) It fits me and my horse well, so I find it extremely comfortable. YMMV, of course. I've been lusting after the Bates version, (as I just got a Bates Caprilli CC for my other (h/j) horse). I just can't really justify that expense right now. My "dressage" horse doesn't show anymore and is semi-retired to 2 or 3 schooling rides per week. Maybe if the h/j horse starts doing some dressage shows, I'll have a good excuse! :lol: For now, though, I'm totally find with the Wintec version.

[snoopy]

I also found it interesting that her place was called "modest"...if that is slumming, sign me up!!!

[spotted mustang]

then again, would she be that wealthy? She doesn't own the horses she rides, and she doesn't come from a rich background. She probably has to pinch her pennies like everybody else...

[slc2]

I think not. If anky is worth 21 million, Isabel is worth a comfortable fraction of that. Being worth half that is still not eating Spaghetti-oh's for dinner. She may not own the horse, but she probably has a little business on the side, selling, teaching, buying, etc. If I recall correctly she's also a lawyer. They make some bank.

The tack company is her sponsor. They give her money. Any time any one shows up, the saddle is supposed to be on the horse.

She's been in this a while. I think she's probably figured out how to make some money doing dressage.

[J-Lu]

Yes, slc, but she didn't need to have pictures taken in the synthetic version of what is now one of their cheaper models. That's the point!

Snoopy, sign me up, too! LOVE that indoor arena and outside track!:D

[snoopy]

Snoopy, sign me up, too! LOVE that indoor arena and outside track!:D


Yes I would see my soul for the hacking track alone....wait I already have for something far less.:lol:

[monstrpony]

FWIW, I've spoken to a couple of folks who have ridden in both versions of the Isabelle (Wintec synthetic and Bates leather) who say they prefer the synthetic one. I can't say I've ever talked to anyone who prefers the leather, come to think of it.

[Carol O]

I don't get COTH. Is she using a drop noseband?

BTW, I ride in the Wintec Isabell and I love it.

[snoopy]

I don't get COTH. Is she using a drop noseband?

BTW, I ride in the Wintec Isabell and I love it.


she is

[FriesianX]

I use a (synthetic) Isabelle on lots of my youngsters - it fits many horses well, and it has enough stick to make you feel a bit more secure with the baby horses! It is a very comfortable, secure, deep seat saddle with totally movable thigh blocks. If you don't like a deep seat, you may not like the Isabelle.

I've ridden in the leather version too - HATE the "grained" leather, but the smooth leather is actually pretty nice - the leather is softer and has a bit of stick, and the entire saddle felt more comfortable than the grained version. But - the "fakey" suede is really the best!

I've even shown in the saddle at USEF/USDF recognized shows - no one kicked me out :cool: Having said all that - the saddle doesn't fit ALL horses, even w/ the adjustable gullets - and of course, my stallion is one of those who it didn't fit well....

[Sabine]

then again, would she be that wealthy? She doesn't own the horses she rides, and she doesn't come from a rich background. She probably has to pinch her pennies like everybody else...

That would be a definitive NO!
Isabel is a smaller german version of Anky. She is a lawyer- but doesn't practice. She did for a long time advertising for one of the biggest german department stores (Karstadt) and did very well on that. She has lots of advertising attached to her and is heavily sponsored and supported by her sponsors.

She is highly educated, professional and disciplined. She does her Job- all around.

The saddle is a good saddle- and the rest is just practical stuff- that's all that's needed to do good schooling work.Take that as a lesson and face the demons- rather than blame it on the saddle/tack/bandages etc....it's a sport- it's a life- goo for it!! LOL!

[Ginger]

If something is good enough for Isabel, it's good enough for me. :) I was very disappointed that the Wintec Isabel didn't work for my pony. It's a really nice saddle for a reasonable price. I've also got an older video of her schooling in a (synthetic) Wintec Pro. But then she could probably ride on a navaho blanket strapped on somehow and still get the best out of her horses.

[Rescue_Rider9]

OMG I love the Wintec. I rode in a Stubben on a really nice horse once and then his owner switched the saddles and the difference was astounding! I love it. I never felt more close to a horse and I got the best results with myself in that saddle, but probably didn't help that this horse was amazing. Right now all I have is a Wintec 2000 AP, but when i get the money I may sell it and get the Isabel. I fell in love with that.

[CatOnLap]

I liked the wintec Isabel but prefer the Pro, and neither of them worked for my main horse. They both look ugly as sin after a year of daily use. "Pleather" does not wear like real leather and too many people do not do the daily cleaning of those synthetics that it takes to keep them looking nice.

You guys do know that the Isabel saddle was designed with input from Werth and that Bates/Wintec gives her a tackroom full of them every year right?

"Warum Nicht" hehehe

Good name for a horse farm.

[neVar]

no she doesn't have to ride in the wintec- but she does. the leather bates version is also 'her' saddle... she could just as easily be riding in it. She chooses to ride in the wintec because she DOES want people to know 'you can do it' in that saddle... (really seriously sit in the leather and the wintec version they feel very much the same).

[meupatdoes]

Slickers:

To add one more file to the talking out of your ass department, lawyers in Europe do not make "some bank."

They make barely any bank.

The yearly salary of a new associate in Germany at your average firm will about equal what a summer associate (ie, law STUDENT) makes at a NYC firm in ten weeks during their 2L summer, even if you factor in the completely shitty exchange rate.

I interned at a German lawfirm as part of my law degree and it was super embarassing to tell them what first year associates make in the US, after many attempts to wiggle away from the question, because it is like three or four TIMES what the lawyers with ten years experience and 15-20 years older than me were making. By the time the US lawyer has fifteen years experience they are like two full digits ahead (but still not making ANYWHERE NEAR 21 million. Christ, no.).
Let's just say that any restaurant that charged more than 8EUR for lunch was considered a splurge.

If somehow Isabell Werth has jumped to the elitest of the elite German legal jobs and secured for herself a partnership position at Freshields or Linklater's or White & Case's German office, ain't no way in HAYULL she has time to ride.

While of course it is possible to make a million a year selling horses (some hunter trainers and huge European sale barns pull it off) it is also quite possible that Isabell Werth is a normal person just like the rest of us who figures out how to handle the work/life balance and just happens to ride pretty nice so people throw her good horses.

[spotted mustang]

I think not. If anky is worth 21 million, Isabel is worth a comfortable fraction of that. Being worth half that is still not eating Spaghetti-oh's for dinner.

That would be a definitive NO!
Isabel is a smaller german version of Anky!

I think you're right: she's got dough - shows you what I know about making money :D

good for Isabell, anyways.

[slc2]

Actually, meupatdoes, all the nasty snarkified insults aside, there is actually a fair tradition in Germany of competitive Lawyer-dressage riders, including Reiner Klimke, and actually, while newbies might not make a lot, neither do newbies in any other profession, overall, lawyering in any country except Bangladesh is not exactly a blue collar job.

Klimke rode, lawyered and served in the Westphalian parliament. He rode at lunch,, after work, his wife also ride his horses at times for him.

As far as 'finding time to ride', people who succeed at their level usually are doing a great many things, and not taking a lot of vacations. It's a general work ethic sort of thing.

We had a guy like that come to our area to give a clinic. It was february, it was about 6 degrees above zero. he started working at 6:30 am, and he worked til 7 pm, without a lunch break. he rode about 12 horses in that time and taught an equal number. And he wasn't real tired at 7 - we stayed up rather late eating and chatting while he took phone calls about his barn, horses in training, horses for sale, etc. The next day he did it all over again, flew home and got up at 6 am the next day to do his horses at his own barn. I don't really think 'finding time to ride' is concept peope that ride at that level think about.

[egontoast]

How is any of that relevant if she's NOT in practice anyway? Hmmm?

If she's not in practice (according to a very reliable source- Sabine!) then she's not making 'some bank' at LAW. The fact that Reiner K was a lawyer (yeah, we know ) and some guy came and gave a clinic at your barn and did not take lunch breaks, has nothing to do with how much money Isabel makes.

"Some Bank"? What a weird expression. Are you in The Hood, slc?

The thing is, Slc, no matter how much you pretend to be an insider , you have no more idea of what's in IW's Bank account than anyone else here, do you?

[Carol O]

My parents went through the depression so growing up I got a heavy dose of those values. I am sick of the "affluenza" infecting our youth, society in general and the dressage world. It is nice to see someone who is likely very capable of showing off lots of expensive, trendy stuff, but does not. Thanks, OP, for this reality check!

I am partial to drop nosebands (to my trainer's distain), so I like to see that too!

[Carol O]

That would be a definitive NO!

The saddle is a good saddle- and the rest is just practical stuff- that's all that's needed to do good schooling work.Take that as a lesson and face the demons- rather than blame it on the saddle/tack/bandages etc....it's a sport- it's a life- goo for it!! LOL!

Such a refreshing attitude! So many rider's blame the stuff! Look in the mirror, own your bad with your good, and then work to improve!

[slc2]

it doesn't have anything to do with 'pretending to be an insider', as you well know, it's just something for you to repeat that sounds nasty and clever. isabel werth gives plenty of interviews, isn't secretive, and besides, people can find out quite a bit about just about any of the riders if they are interested and able to read.

most of the top riders have fansites, articles, books all over the place, they also give lectures and talks and clinics. one doesn't need to be an 'insider' to know anything about top sports figures these days. to suggest that showing evidence of having read an article is 'pretending to be an insider' is silly.

isabel werth did complete her law degree, no, that is not an effort to be an 'insider' either, that was also published very widely - if i remember right there was a big article published when she graduated, and whether she's doing that or not right now, it's still a good living, it is something other dressage competitors have done, and i bet that at some point she has used or will use that law degree. most people do

[meupatdoes]

Actually, meupatdoes, all the nasty snarkified insults aside, there is actually a fair tradition in Germany of competitive Lawyer-dressage riders, including Reiner Klimke, and actually, while newbies might not make a lot, neither do newbies in any other profession, overall, lawyering in any country except Bangladesh is not exactly a blue collar job.

Klimke rode, lawyered and served in the Westphalian parliament. He rode at lunch,, after work, his wife also ride his horses at times for him.

As far as 'finding time to ride', people who succeed at their level usually are doing a great many things, and not taking a lot of vacations. It's a general work ethic sort of thing.

We had a guy like that come to our area to give a clinic. It was february, it was about 6 degrees above zero. he started working at 6:30 am, and he worked til 7 pm, without a lunch break. he rode about 12 horses in that time and taught an equal number. And he wasn't real tired at 7 - we stayed up rather late eating and chatting while he took phone calls about his barn, horses in training, horses for sale, etc. The next day he did it all over again, flew home and got up at 6 am the next day to do his horses at his own barn. I don't really think 'finding time to ride' is concept peope that ride at that level think about.

Slick, did you just cite to me a 100% horse professional who does nothing but the horse business as an excellent of example of someone who finds time to ride? AMAZINGLY enough, my trainer finds time to ride too. SOMEHOW the first year associates at Wachtel who are making $160k (plus a totally unique to Wachtel $160k bonus, which I was NOT calculating into my figures above) find time to work from 9:00AM to 11:PM every day including weekends. Evidently the associates at Wachtel aren't very good at taking vacations either. Wow, citing examples of people who EITHER ride OR do law is super pertinent to this discussion on lawyering/riding balance.

Also, if you would like to explain to me how a US lawyer earning a Wachtel level salary which you appear to think is a lawyerly given, which involves putting in Wachtel hours, is going to go school a couple horses on her lunch break simply by having a work ethic please feel free to go ahead.

I mean here my plan was to work at a more reasonable firm for half the pay (no Wachtel bonus, boo) and get up at 4:30am to ride and working 10-9 every day to fund a non-Olympian amateur career for FAR LESS money than you are assuming... but if you want to find the magic firm in the sky that will dish out a "comparable fraction of $21 million dollars" and also explain to me how I can follow in Isabell's footsteps and bill 2800 hours and still ride in the Olympics, by all means I am all ears. I'm sure you have an anecdote from when you met a lawyer on a spelunking expedition in the Andes.

And yes. Thank you for explaining to everyone that starting positions pay less than established ones. Now we all know how the world works.

Still doesn't change the fact that German lawyers make, in general, peanuts compared to the US lawyers I'm sure you were basing your totally off the mark assumptions on.
Their starting salary is peanuts compared to a US starting salary, and their established salary is peanuts compared to a US established salary. Their legal earning spectrum, generally speaking, is comparably varying levels of peanuts. Sorry.

You appear to have this impression that Isabell Werth is banking $750,000 as a lawyer in Germany (HAhahahaha!), living high on the hog in stilettos with secretaries to help her get this Saudi Aramco deal wrapped up before she skips out for a long lunch to ride. Oh, what a lawyerly life we lead!!

In reality a normal German lawyer who has been in the office for 10 years and has not sold their soul to a sweatshop (which selling of soul would make it pretty hard to ride during lunch) will be pulling in around 60k.

But Slickers! By all means! Don't let reality stop you!
If your version is so common place, and so easy, why aren't you arriving at shows in a Gulf Stream (on your lunch breaks)?
Just go out and find a lawyer gig or a high finance gig and ride on the side. Anyone can work 16 hours AND ride every day. Alternatively, ANY lawyer can make these vast sums you have in mind, and EVEN on non-partner track hours!! All it takes is a work ethic.

Please, continue to tell people who have ACTUALLY experienced in the legal profession on both side of the Atlantic how easy we have it and how much money we make.

ETA
OH while I was typing you were typing and you came up with this:
if i remember right there was a big article published when she graduated, and whether she's doing that or not right now, it's still a good living, it is something other dressage competitors have done, and i bet that at some point she has used or will use that law degree. most people do

Now we have gone from "She is a lawyer, therefore she is rolling in vast amounts of cash,"
to "She has a law degree and therefore doesn't even need to practice to roll around in vast amount of cash."

Oh silly me I must have not read my contract closely enough and missed the part where all I had to do was GET the job, not actually, you know, show up.

[egontoast]

isabel werth did complete her law degree

Um, yes, slc, no one said she didn't .:confused::confused::confused:

[beasulike]

isabel werth did complete her law degree, no, that is not an effort to be an 'insider' either, that was also published very widely - if i remember right there was a big article published when she graduated, and whether she's doing that or not right now, it's still a good living, it is something other dressage competitors have done

"1989 Abitur am Amplonius-Gymnasium Rheinberg. Wintersemester 1989 Beginn des Jurastudi-ums, 2000 Abschluss (2. Staatsexamen). Danach Anwältin in der Kanzlei Oexmann in Hamm. Ende 2001 bis Anfang 2004 Sponsoring-Beauftragte Karstadt Warenhaus AG. Seit 2004 selbstständig mit eigenem Turnier- und Ausbildungsstall in Rheinberg/Niederrhein." (from http://www.isabell-werth.com/)

11 years from starting law school to qualifiying - that's what riding at an olympic level gets you. plus a job in a small provincial firm for a bit over 2 years...

(and yes, as a german lawyer i do have some idea about what i'm talking about.)

[Spoilsport]

YIKES!! - I rarely post, and I don't care if Isabelle is rich or not, but the idea of all lawyers raking in the big bucks and having lots of time to ride horses is just too funny :lol: :lol: :lol:

That is no ordinary lawyer. . .that must be SUPER LAWYER :winkgrin:

[slc2]

lawyer is still not a blue collar, low paying job. it's a good job. it's a professional job. and at the law firm i worked at, the lawyers made very good money.

[meupatdoes]

lawyer is still not a blue collar, low paying job.
it's a good job. it's a professional job. and at the law firm i worked at (meup's note: IN THE US WHERE THE SALARIES ARE MANY MANY MULTIPLES OF THE SALARIES IN GERMANY), the lawyers made very good money.

Yes I'm sure it was a "comfortable fraction" of 21 million.

You're right about the "fraction".

[egontoast]

lawyer is still not a blue collar, low paying job. it's a good job. it's a professional job. and at the law firm i worked at, the lawyers made very good money.


:confused:

What do the salaries at some US law firm have to do with IW's income?

What do the salaries at ANY LAW FIRM ANYWHERE have to do with IW's income if she is not in practice?

Smoke and mirrors, as usual.

[Kaeleer]

Slc2, either you are the most talented multitasker in the world (and for some strange reason a picture of a toilet is popping, unbidden, into my head as I type this) or you can't hold down a job at all.

Just how many jobs have you had, in how many fields? I'm not sure whether to hold you up as a pinnacle of ADD or to run a mile, screaming "liar, liar pants on fire!"

I probably wouldn't have posted on this, but your arrogant assumption that you are entitled to discuss other peoples' earning potential just because they're good at what they do just irks me. You have NO knowledge of how much Ms Werth earns and, what is more, it's none of your business.

But then, that has never really stopped you from posting, has it?

[Carol O]

Anyone got a fire extinguisher?

[slc2]

lol.

so you are good at insulting people, exactly how good does THAT pay, and which company is employing you to do that? if you are a law student, maybe spend more time studying and less thinking up insults and you will be more competitive, and a whole lot less overly sensitive about their salaries.

a lawyer makes less money than a check out person at the grocery store?

give me a break.

i'm sure struggling new grads have a tough time, and that it's a very competitive field, that doesn't change the fact that it's a professional, white collar job, and a VERY GOOD JOB. and i know what it's like, my buddy went to a big firm in NY and i realize they work very many hours.

i STILL say any job a competitive rider can make work and help him or her is a GOOD JOB!

in fact, law is no different from any other white collar job - it is VERY hard to get established, and very competitive.

but people not only make money practicing law, they can also use a law degree as a take off point for a number of OTHER white collar, lucrative careers. that is a GOOD THING, not a bad thing.

ANY career a competitive dressage rider can make work and support his or her riding is a GOOD THING.

and it's ok for you all to bring it up, but not for me to respond?

nonsense.

and it's ok to discuss in detail on this bb a dressage rider's pen*s size, underwear choice, sex life, marriage arrangements, child care competency, lifestyle choices, divorces, affairs, sexual orientation, and accuse them of killing horses et al, as so many past threads have, but not what they make?

baloney.

in fact, i didn't start this thread. i responded to it.

and i am THRILLED that a rider can have a business career to help them compete in dressage, i wish MORE people could. I think it's fabulous. and i'm thrilled for ANYONE who can make a good living thru getting a difficult degree and hard work.

i think a lot of young adults and teens should understand VERY WELL what the top riders do, what sort of education they have, so they realize what it can take to make their dreams of competitive success happen. i think it should be talked about. it is, in fact, public knowledge and what she makes has been published several times that i've noticed, as well as anky van grunsven's income. these people work their asses off to get where they are - more power to 'em.

"The average attorney salary by city is: New York $99,000, Chicago $85,000, Los Angeles $93,000, Washington $111,000, Atlanta $84000, San Fransisco $100,000, Miami $75,000.

The longer a lawyer works, the more he will make. The average lawyer salary by length of service is: New- $57,000, 1 to 4 Years- $64,000, 5 to 9 Years- $88,000, 10 to 19 Years- $104,000, More Than 20 Years- $114,000."

and yes, i understand very well what the term 'average' means.

and that while the average attorney in NY is making 99,000 a year (that means some make substantially more than that, and some less), the average for an accounting clerk in NY is less than a THIRD of that, the average customer service position is half of that, the average retail sales associate is about a fourth of that, and the average stock clerk is about a fifth of that, and the average director still makes less than the lawer.

and that would be less money.

Yes, the top CEO's in america earn more. Yes, the manager of a casino may earn more. Yes, payscale.com and other research on forbes.com points to engineering being a very lucrative career. But that doesn't change the numbers. Law is STILL very good.

that, to me, 90 some a year for an average, and 57,000 for entry, is a GOOD JOB, it's a higher average than entry for engineers, too, and can be a GREAT JOB, that average of entry level of 57,000 dollars is quite a bit higher than a LOT of entry level degree jobs.

and it puts it in the realm of a white collar job. so get off my back, and go try attacking someone else.

the insistence that lawyers must be somehow economically disadvantaged is absurd. in fact, it can be a GREAT career and they work very, very hard to get into it. the bar exams alone are a nightmare, and the work put in to get the degree is hard to match even in other white collar fields.

[CatOnLap]

Klimke ... rode at lunch,, after work, his wife also ride his horses at times for him.

I suppose he might have ridden at lunch. When we talked to him back in 1990, he said his normal schedule was to arise around 4:30 AM, arrive at the stable by 5:30, ride 2 horses, (that his son or daughter had tacked and warmed up for him and that their groom cooled out and untacked) take the public transport ( bus and train) to work, work until supper around 6, take the public transport home and then some days, to return to the stable in the evening to ride 1 or 2 more horses. I doubt he could have made it to the stable at lunch time to ride on a working day.

Klimke was a very energetic and ambitious man and he worked very hard. he also died tragically young ( at age 63 from a massive heart attack , on the bus, on his way to work)and one can't help but think that his long schedule might have had something to do with it. RIP

[Moderator 1]

Time to shelve the lawyer salary/work conditions discussion--it's not horse-related and not really related to the subject of the OP, who is evidently non-practicing.

If someone would like to start a new thread in Off Course re: how various upper-level riders support their riding careers for the benefit of aspiring riders, you're welcome to do so. In the meantime, please refocus on the OP.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[meupatdoes]

Time to shelve the lawyer salary/work conditions discussion--it's not horse-related and not really related to the subject of the OP, who is evidently non-practicing.

If someone would like to start a new thread in Off Course re: how various upper-level riders support their riding careers for the benefit of aspiring riders, you're welcome to do so. In the meantime, please refocus on the OP.

Thanks,
Mod 1

I'm sorry, I think we posted at the same time.
I didn't see your post before clicking the post button on mind.

Do you want me to delete?