U.S. Horses going to WCYH (Verden)

[canyonoak]

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08wcyh/qual_usa.html

Not to worry that we have only one horse with a qualifying score to go to World Young Horse Championships!


Amazingly, there are two more that have never set foot in the United States!

See report above...

[Tiki]

And the one bred and born here got special dispensation to go with a Dutch rider!

[ridgeback]

Wow I'm surprised that they would allow them to qualify without competing in the U.S. hmmm:cool: So it looks like two horses that were European bred and trained but ridden by U.S. riders and one U.S. bred horse but ridden by a Dutch rider will be going? I don't know the rules for qualifying but is this unusual?

[tartanfarm]

This seems to be another example of the USEF changing the rules without going through the proper procedures. Nowhere in the rules or guidelines does it mention qualifying outside of the US. And the rules specifically note that a horse owner and rider must be US citizens.
There may be very valid reasons to change the rules,but it seems extremely unfair to those that complied, to change them during or after the qualification shows are complete for the year.

[egontoast]

So it looks like two horses that were European bred and trained but ridden by U.S. riders and one U.S. bred horse but ridden by a Dutch rider will be going? I don't know the rules for qualifying but is this unusual? Jul. 15, 2008 12:30 PM

Interesting. What if it were a young horse purchased by or for an American rider based in Europe, such as Catherine Haddad. How would you feel about it then? Should that horse qualify or not?

[ridgeback]

Interesting. What if it were a young horse purchased by or for an American rider based in Europe, such as Catherine Haddad. How would you feel about it then? Should that horse qualify or not?

Huh what are you talking about? When did Catherine come into this?

[ridgeback]

This seems to be another example of the USEF changing the rules without going through the proper procedures. Nowhere in the rules or guidelines does it mention qualifying outside of the US. And the rules specifically note that a horse owner and rider must be US citizens.
There may be very valid reasons to change the rules,but it seems extremely unfair to those that complied, to change them during or after the qualification shows are complete for the year.

They change the rules whenever it suits them..

[egontoast]

it was just an example of an American rider based in Europe. I could have said Lisa Wilcox if she were still based there.

Anyway, why not answer the question?


What if it were a young horse purchased by or for an American rider based in Europe, such as Catherine Haddad. How would you feel about it then? Should that horse qualify or not?

[tartanfarm]

it was just an example of an American rider based in Europe. I could have said Lisa Wilcox if she were still based there.

Anyway, why not answer the question?

IMHO it isn't the "who" but the procedure. Either everyone follows the rules or no one has to.

[DownYonder]

Yep, it looks like USEF broke its own rule. See page 2 of the Selection Procedures:

http://www.usef.org/documents/international/dressage/2008YHWBCCriteriaFINAL.pdf

"....horse will NOT be eligible for the short list or entry to the World Breeding Championships as representing the United States unless ridden and owned by a U.S. citizen."

I have nothing against the very talented Willy Arts and equally talented Valeska, but I would love to know under what criteria USEF was allowed to ignore the above rule. Does anyone know if Willy has applied for U.S. citizenship?

But huge congrats to Jennifer Hoffmann! That is quite an impressive qualifying score (8.9)! And earned in German competition, too. Hooray for her!

[DownYonder]

This seems to be another example of the USEF changing the rules without going through the proper procedures. Nowhere in the rules or guidelines does it mention qualifying outside of the US. And the rules specifically note that a horse owner and rider must be US citizens.
There may be very valid reasons to change the rules,but it seems extremely unfair to those that complied, to change them during or after the qualification shows are complete for the year.

See page 4 of the selection procedures, under B. International Qualification.

http://www.usef.org/documents/international/dressage/2008YHWBCCriteriaFINAL.pdf

Qualifying in a foreign country is within the rules.

[ridgeback]

it was just an example of an American rider based in Europe. I could have said Lisa Wilcox if she were still based there.

Anyway, why not answer the question?

Did you not see my question "I don't know the rules for qualifying but is this unusual?" I'm not sure why you brought up a specific rider I was pointing out the facts and asking what the rules were..Can't find another thread to cause trouble on?

[TMPF]

The rules do cover American riders who qualify outside of the United States. Willy is the only exception to the rules and was allowed because the horse was based, bred and trained in the US.

[Tiki]

I did think, however, that they had changed the rule a couple of years ago that a horse qualifying for the US had to have been bred and born here, AND the rider had to be a citizen of the country that s/he represented. In fact, remember Rousseau of Silver Medal fame?? He was, at the time, owned by Hilltop Farm, but competed by Nicolette von Lierop, and at Verden he was listed by his RIDER's country of the Netherlands, even though owned at the time by an American. Later, with Susanne Hassler, Royal Prince was listed as American.

Hmmmmmm, maybe I've answered my own question and the origin of the horse doesn't matter, but doesn't anyone remember talk about the horse having to be bred and born in the country it represents as well.

According to what happened in the past, Valeska should be competing for The Netherlands too, but they gave special dispensation to Wily Arts.

[egontoast]

Did you not see my question "I don't know the rules for qualifying but is this unusual?" I'm not sure why you brought up a specific rider I was pointing out the facts and asking what the rules were..Can't find another thread to cause trouble on?

No need to take offence. I'm not from the US and was looking for an example of an American rider based in Europe. It was an example only. Put any other name in there that you like!

[ridgeback]

No need to take offence. I'm not from the US and was looking for an example of an American rider based in Europe. It was an example only. Put any other name in there that you like!

No offense taken just don't understand why you are asking me the question.. I was pointing out the facts and asked a question not sure why you felt the need to bring up Catherine? There are already apparently two U.S. riders based in Europe that will be attending so why again are you asking about CH? thanks ROTFLMAO

[Sandy M]

And the one bred and born here got special dispensation to go with a Dutch rider!


Willy Arts has been the trainer at DG Bar Ranch for YEARS. I am surprised he hasn't applied for American citizenship, but it's not like he's been engaged JUST to ride this horse. I can remember taking a clinic with him at least 10 years or more ago, when he delivered a horse from D-G Bar to our barn in Northern California. He's shown the D-G Bar horses at Devon, etc. For them, it would be unusual for them to have anyone BUT Willy (or one of their daughters, I suppose) present the horse.

[Tiki]

Well, it is very interesting.

Valeska - US bred, US foaled, American owned, Dutch rider - credit to US

Rousseau - Dutch bred, Dutch foaled, American owned, Dutch rider - credit to Holland

Basically opposites, but different rules.

[hsheffield]

So I googled Williams and Rubinio:

looks like both horses have done well competing in Europe. Rubinio is qualified for the Bundeschampionate and Williams went 23/115 in the Pavo Cup last year. they should do a fine job of representing the USA. however it looks like the message is: if you want to go to Verden, go train in Europe.

don't know how these horse compare with the ones in the USA, but it would have been nice if they were on the 'list' all along and the stateside riders knew what they were really competing against.

it reeks just a little that these horses seemingly came out of nowhere. in my business, we say 'transparency leads to credibility' IMHO, the USEF could have used some transparency about this. it makes me wonder did any of the horses in the USA ever have a chance?

[Sandy M]

It occurs to me that Willy Arts is, by birth, Dutch, but I think it quite probable that he HAS become a U.S. Citizen by now. I don't know, either way, but certainly it's possible. He's lived here in the States for quite some time. I mean, Gunther Seidel is a U.S. citizen, but I'm sure that a casual reference to him might refer to him as German, which he IS by birth, if not by current citizenship.

[Libera]

Willy has applied for citizenship. You can't ride in the CA Championships or anything if you don't.

[ise@ssl]

The process for the US selection is such a mess it's not surprising that they change the rules at the last minute. Good for Willy and Valeska. It's sad to look at the judging of the Young Horse competitions this year - varied a lot from competition to competition. The USEF/USDF have put money into a Coach and clinics and it's NOT producing more horses with qualifying scores. Maybe the 2 individuals with horses that qualified and competed in Europe found they could get the coaching and training they needed to get the scores. Then good for them. I just hope we don't pay to send the US coach over to the championship. Willy Arts doesn't need the coaching and the 2 individuals who qualified in Europe should stick with whomever they are working with now.

[Tiki]

From EurodressageThe Organizing committee has agreed to accept the entry of Valeska DG with a non-US rider (Willy Arts is Dutch) due to the horse being U.S-bred, U.S.-owned, trained in the I.S. and qualified via U.S. competition.

[DownYonder]

The process for the US selection is such a mess it's not surprising that they change the rules at the last minute. Good for Willy and Valeska. It's sad to look at the judging of the Young Horse competitions this year - varied a lot from competition to competition. The USEF/USDF have put money into a Coach and clinics and it's NOT producing more horses with qualifying scores. Maybe the 2 individuals with horses that qualified and competed in Europe found they could get the coaching and training they needed to get the scores. Then good for them. I just hope we don't pay to send the US coach over to the championship. Willy Arts doesn't need the coaching and the 2 individuals who qualified in Europe should stick with whomever they are working with now.

According to Libera, Willy has applied for U.S. citizenship - which is probably the reason why USEF decided to allow him to go to Verden.

And I agree that the judging varies a lot from competition to competition - not to mention that there are many areas of the country that do not have qualifiers early enough in the year to allow people to adequately prepare or even qualify for the selection trials. It's still a fairly young program, so hopefully they will continue to work out the kinks.

And I am fairly certain that "we" - as in USEF members - will be funding Scott Hassler's trip to Verden. I agree that Willy doesn't need his coaching, and obviously neither do the two riders who qualified in Europe, but it is part of the job responsibilities of the Young Dressage Horse Coach to go to Verden.

[freestyle2music]

This is not an unique USA-problem. I see it every day and everywhere.


Conform the FEI rules; people who want to compete with a stallion must be 12 years or older. Rachel Fokker (11 years old) and Power & Paint were allowed to participate in FEI ruled competitions.

A GP-horse who had competed for the Dutch A-team in FEI-ruled competitions was not allowed to participate in the junior or youngriders competition the same year.

This rule was changed when Sjef Janssen could sell one of his GP-horses to a junior rider.

This last change was very frustrated for ourselfs because when my sister gave the ride on her GP-horse Darwin to her daughter she had to wait for a year before her daughter could start competing at JR level.

Never the less my opinion is that rules are there to be bend.:)

[YankeeLawyer]

It's sad to look at the judging of the Young Horse competitions this year - varied a lot from competition to competition. The USEF/USDF have put money into a Coach and clinics and it's NOT producing more horses with qualifying scores.

I find it astonishing that they could not find two horses in the country worthy of qualifying. But, I doubt horses like Cabana Boy were sorely lacking in training.

[dressagefriend]

There were some horses that could not make it to the Selection Trials this year. In the Midwest there was only one show you could qualify and it was one week before the Selection Trials. Maybe they will change this next year.

[dressagefriend]

Also wanted to add the Judging varies greatly. I have seen horses show in YH classes for the entire weekend. You can have the same Judge Fri and Sat with riders adjusting to please that person to get 7.2-7.8 scores. Sunday comes for the Qualifying ride with a different Judge. Suddenly scores drop below 7.0 with completely different comments. This is very confusing to riders trying to give Judges what they want. This year Sunday is the day that counts for Nationals. It is frustrating for all. Riders do want to ride their horses well and please the Judges.

[Mardi]

I believe Willy's mare Valeska DG is the same mare that he showed at Devon in 2003 in the sport-horse breeding division, and won everything. That mare stole the show, and I remember that the contingent from Europe who were there, were impressed.

Willy's marketing of Valeska in 2003 (taking the then filly across country to Devon to gain exposure at the top breed show, in front of Europeans) may pay off handsomely in Verden in 2008.

[ise@ssl]

If a coach isn't going to be used by the competitors - it makes NO SENSE to waste the money to send the person there to be a spectator.

I don't think it's any secret that when the USA hired Klaus Balkenhol to take over the reins as Coach of our Dressage Team the results were obvious. Why not consider the same thing for the Young Horse program and hire a person from Europe who has a proven track record in this area and have them come over on a regular basis to various parts of the country to work with those riders who have young horses? Trainers/coaches in Europe have a complete knowledge of this program and they can look at the horses/riders from a clean start. Right now the individuals who want to participate in the training programs and clinics have to submit a videotape - who is doing the chosing? What's their experience with the Young Horse Championship judging/competitions? Someone from across the pond can look at those videos from the viewpoint that the riders/horses will have at the competition.

And the issue of the judges giving comments one day and the judges on the consecutive days having COMPLETELY different opinions is horrible. I know this has happened to riders I've spoken with. They changed what was pointed out on the first day only to have the judges on the next test say the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. And it cost them a lot of points.

[DownYonder]

I find it astonishing that they could not find two horses in the country worthy of qualifying. But, I doubt horses like Cabana Boy were sorely lacking in training.

I agree. However, since USEF is apparently coughing up some funds this year to help the qualified horses make the trip to Verden, I wouldn't be surprised if the people judging this year's qualifiers and selection trials had been instructed to be especially critical to help weed out the qualifying horses. The fewer horses they send, the less money they have to spend overall, or the more money they have available per horse.

[ise@ssl]

Well unfortuntely in their approach to "weed out" - they pulled alot of flowers in the process. What in God's name do they DO with all the money they take in to these organizations that sending our BEST young horses to Europe is something they feel isn't worthy of funding? It's mostly the BREEDERS who pay for the lifetime numbers and the entry fees for these classes isn't free.

[DownYonder]

What in God's name do they DO with all the money they take in.

Apparently some of it is spent paying the Y/H, D/H, and High Performance coaches. And I agree that Klaus Balkenhol as High Performance Coach has certainly paid off. Maybe we will be able to say the same about the Y/H program one day.

[ise@ssl]

I just feel the process should be more transparent. Who are the people reviewing the tapes and what are their credentials with Young Horses? We've already seen here where many of the judges don't have additional training in this type of judging and the consistency in the approach to the judging method is varying to the detrement of the riders/horses. If the current Coach isn't GROWING the program and resulting in more and more horses breaking over the minimum score threshhold - it's time to consider if this is the right coach. I feel strongly the Coach should be giving clinics in varying parts of the country on a more regular basis. Paying for this is possible with the fees paid by the participants and some auditing fees. I've put on regular clinics - it can be done. But the training sessions need to be open to more horse/riders and the selection process needs to be done by someone with the EYES for seeing which horses have the ability to be competitive in the Young Horse Championships.

This issue of judges from day to day having completely different "eyes" isn't creating a construction, consistent program that can not only grow the number of participants but keep current participants coming back with more horses. Personal nasty comments should preclude a judge from being involved in the competition judging in the future. In fact, the participants in the Young Horse competitions should receive a survey at the end of each show to comment on what they felt about the judging. They should also be queried on what THEY felt they needed as far as training or judging in the future.

[YankeeLawyer]

I agree. However, since USEF is apparently coughing up some funds this year to help the qualified horses make the trip to Verden, I wouldn't be surprised if the people judging this year's qualifiers and selection trials had been instructed to be especially critical to help weed out the qualifying horses. The fewer horses they send, the less money they have to spend overall, or the more money they have available per horse.

Then, in my opinion, they should separate the issues. If they only want to offer one grant, then make that grant available to the horse with the highest qualifying score, and let the owners of the one qualifying in the number 2 slot decide whether it is worth it to them to foot the bill themselves.

I don't see how we are ever going to make any progress in those kinds of competitions unless we send riders and horses over there to get mileage. People are acting as though it is not worthwhile to send a horse over there unless it can win. Fact is, it is highly unlikely to win anyway. I think it would be valuable, though, to send ones over that can put in a solid performance. And I am SURE they could have found two horses that could have done that.

[YankeeLawyer]

I feel strongly the Coach should be giving clinics in varying parts of the country on a more regular basis. Paying for this is possible with the fees paid by the participants and some auditing fees. I've put on regular clinics - it can be done. But the training sessions need to be open to more horse/riders and the selection process needs to be done by someone with the EYES for seeing which horses have the ability to be competitive in the Young Horse Championships.

This issue of judges from day to day having completely different "eyes" isn't creating a construction, consistent program that can not only grow the number of participants but keep current participants coming back with more horses. Personal nasty comments should preclude a judge from being involved in the competition judging in the future. In fact, the participants in the Young Horse competitions should receive a survey at the end of each show to comment on what they felt about the judging. They should also be queried on what THEY felt they needed as far as training or judging in the future.


Ditto! Well said.

[Tiki]

With regard to the comments of problems with judges not knowing the rules or scoring procedures - I found out that judges in this country do NOT have actual training in how to score the Young Horse Tests. There are only a couple of judges who have actually had training and are certified to judge these tests. The 4, 5 and 6yo Young Horse Classes are not the only problem. One of my horses was in a Materiale class about a month ago. There were 2 judges. She got one the first day and the other the 2nd day. The first judge knew what she was doing and scored her according to the rules: Materiale Classes must be conducted according to the following rules and procedures:
1. Horses will be evaluated according to the criteria listed on the “USDF Materiale Class Scoresheet, and classes must be conducted according to the USDF “Procedures to Host USDF DSHB Materiale Classes”. ................
2. .............
3. Horses will be evaluated under saddle at the walk, trot and canter in both directions of the arena. In addition, four and five year old horses may be asked to lengthen the stride at the trot and canter.
4. ....................
The first judge did just this (i.e. what is bolded in red). The 2nd judge, the next day, had NO CLUE and asked the rider to ride down the centerline with a halt at 'X', ride across the arena from 'B' to 'E' with a halt at 'X', do changes across the diagonal, do circles, do half circle and back to the track. Huh??????????? The score sheet was a mess! The scoresheet, similar to the Young Horse Score Sheets has scores for Walk, Trot, Canter and Overall Impression. The first judge made notes for gaits to the Left and to the Right and had scores for Walk Left Walk Right Trot Left Trot Right Canter Left Canter Right and Overall Impression, then a total, averaged score.

The 2nd judge made an absolute mess of the score sheet and had varying numbers of scores all over the page. The Scores didn't seem to go with anything, there were varying numbers of scores in the walk column, a different number of scores in the trot column, and again a different number, in different places for the canter column. The scores weren't averaged and the TD had to be called twice to sort it out. In the end, the final scores written, in a different colored ink, but initialed by the judge, seemed to have NOTHING to do with the scores written down, and were not averaged, but in fact were all lower than the scores written during the test. HUH???? Did she get mad at being called on her lack of understanding and penalize the horse? There were 3 different totals written on the test with the highest 2 crossed out. Only the lowest scores, written WELL after the test seemed to count. As someone said on another post somewhere:

WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT ! ! ! ! !

For those of you unfamiliar with the military phonetic alphabet, WTF!!!!!

The Materiale Classes are a precursor to the Young Horse Classes, which are a precursor to the FEI Levels. How on earth are we going to get our well-bred, nice horses into FEI Level competition with judges like this - or the nasty, mean judges for the Young Horse classes reported here on other posts from this year and last year?????????????

[Edgewood]

The 2nd judge made an absolute mess of the score sheet and had varying numbers of scores all over the page. The Scores didn't seem to go with anything, there were varying numbers of scores in the walk column, a different number of scores in the trot column, and again a different number, in different places for the canter column. The scores weren't averaged and the TD had to be called twice to sort it out. In the end, the final scores written, in a different colored ink, but initialed by the judge, seemed to have NOTHING to do with the scores written down, and were not averaged, but in fact were all lower than the scores written during the test. HUH???? Did she get mad at being called on her lack of understanding and penalize the horse? There were 3 different totals written on the test with the highest 2 crossed out. Only the lowest scores, written WELL after the test seemed to count. As someone said on another post somewhere:

The Materiale Classes are a precursor to the Young Horse Classes, which are a precursor to the FEI Levels. How on earth are we going to get our well-bred, nice horses into FEI Level competition with judges like this - or the nasty, mean judges for the Young Horse classes reported here on other posts from this year and last year?????????????

Yikes Tiki!
I showed in Materiale in 2006 with my mare Ghlycerine and never were the scores like you said for the 2nd judge (or the class). It was always a rail class and all asked for the lengthening of stride in both canter and trot. I am surprised that it actually hasn't gotten even better (but it sounds even worse with your recent experience).

[hsheffield]

I sat through a YH training session w/ Scott Hassler and IMHO, he did a good job focusing in on the horse's issues and making useful comments. The horse I watched is now in the top 5 in the country so something must have worked. I think he has a lot of factions to please (riders, owners, USEF...) and I'm impressed by his diplomacy. I mean, don't we all think our own horse is extra special?


As far as the judges, that's another thing.

I heard from a friend who's represented that US in Verden (and finished in the top 10) that the YH classes at Paxton CDI this year were more about slamming the riders than evaluating the horses. In my mind, the only question the judges should be addressing is 'Will this horse make an international caliber FEI horse?' Too many American judges seem bent on giving riding lessons rather than evaluating the potential of the horse.

BTW, the Paxton judge will be judging in Kentucky this year, so caveat emptor!

[ise@ssl]

hshieffield - After all these training sessions and clinics - he had 1 rider in the top 5??? I honestly don't find that to be acceptable. And while diplomacy is necessary in any situation - these are TRAINING SESSIONS. This is where the real hard core comments have to happen to get to the issues that any horse/rider combination might have. Coaches aren't in the business of pleasing people they are in the business of coaching them to their best performance.

It might also be helpful for films of the European competitions be shown so that those headed into the Young Horse classes can clearly see what the GOAL IS for this division of competition.

Interesting that the ONE HORSE headed to Verden from the US didn't go to any training sessions and clearly the rider Willy Arts doesn't need a coach. Maybe he should be hired to teach some of these clinics.

[DownYonder]

The 2nd judge made an absolute mess of the score sheet and had varying numbers of scores all over the page. The Scores didn't seem to go with anything, there were varying numbers of scores in the walk column, a different number of scores in the trot column, and again a different number, in different places for the canter column. The scores weren't averaged and the TD had to be called twice to sort it out. In the end, the final scores written, in a different colored ink, but initialed by the judge, seemed to have NOTHING to do with the scores written down, and were not averaged, but in fact were all lower than the scores written during the test. HUH???? Did she get mad at being called on her lack of understanding and penalize the horse? There were 3 different totals written on the test with the highest 2 crossed out. Only the lowest scores, written WELL after the test seemed to count. As someone said on another post somewhere:

WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT ! ! ! ! !

For those of you unfamiliar with the military phonetic alphabet, WTF!!!!!



Good Lord, what a mess. I think it demonstrates the very cavalier attitiude
USEF has toward the Y/H development program in this country, when it doesn't even require Y/H judges to be appropriately trained and certified for those classes.

And I had to laugh about "Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot". I was raised in the Air Force, so I got it right away! Folks that arent' familiar with military parlance though often say "where's the fruitbat?". :lol:

[DownYonder]

Too many American judges seem bent on giving riding lessons rather than evaluating the potential of the horse.

Yep, that is the impression I am getting from friends that have competed in these classes. There are too many untrained, uncertified judges too pumped up with their own self-importance, and that haven't sat on a 5 or 6 y/o horse in over 20 years.

I heard a well-respected FEI trainer tell another one a few weeks ago - "the important thing is to train the horse for the future - not just for success in the Y/H program." I think those are very wise words.

[hsheffield]

ISE: I can only speak about what I saw and that one horse I saw has done extremely well. I don't know what other horses were trained or what happened to them.

I agree about watching video of the European classes. I think we should not only share these with the riders, but with the judges as well.

[TMPF]

I think the more important questions are why were there so few entries at the selection trials? Why didn't the top horses go to the training clinics? Maybe if they had gone to the clinics, we would have had gotten more horses with the scores needed to qualify for Verden. How are we going to fix the rules and the judging? Why didn’t the scores from the selection trials count for the National Championships. If the horses in Europe can qualify with a single score from a regular show, why not allow Joe’s horse in with the 8.9 he got last weekend.

The coach only gets to see these horses a one training session in the year. At best he can offer advice and inform the riders in what they need to accomplish with the training they do at home on a regular basis and to point out horses that have the quality needed to compete in Verden. To blame the failure of this years result on one person is ridiculous. First you talk about how few clinics there are then you say at "all these training sessions" I personally know three riders who train regularly with the Coach and have gone on to qualify and ride at Verden that’s a pretty good record if you ask me for such a young program.

[freestyle2music]

I think the more important questions are why were there so few entries at the selection trials? Why didn't the top horses go to the training clinics? Maybe if they had gone to the clinics, we would have had gotten more horses with the scores needed to qualify for Verden. How are we going to fix the rules and the judging? Why didn’t the scores from the selection trials count for the National Championships. If the horses in Europe can qualify with a single score from a regular show, why not allow Joe’s horse in with the 8.9 he got last weekend.

The coach only gets to see these horses a one training session in the year. At best he can offer advice and inform the riders in what they need to accomplish with the training they do at home on a regular basis and to point out horses that have the quality needed to compete in Verden. To blame the failure of this years result on one person is ridiculous. First you talk about how few clinics there are then you say at "all these training sessions" I personally know three riders who train regularly with the Coach and have gone on to qualify and ride at Verden that’s a pretty good record if you ask me for such a young program.


Could it be that many people with good horses don't trust the judges ;):cool:

and skip this roulette of scores ?

[Tiki]

Ummm, they had an 'official USEF Young Horse clinic' in Florida and one in California and I think you already had to have qualifying scores to be 'selected' for those clinics. I can't exactly see someone with a really nice horse truckin' all the way to Florida or California even if qualified. Those clinics seem ONLY to favor those already qualified, and even at that, unless you live there, or are already competing there, are not financially feasible to get to.

[ahf]

Could it be that many people with good horses don't trust the judges ....

Uh, yup. There are very successful trainers here, that have trained multiples up the levels to successful FEI careers (isn't that the goal?) that have no intention of getting sliced and diced and julienned by some judge on a power trip with a microphone in her hand.

There is a way to hand out a five with a smile on your face and not have to have your car checked for explosives upon leaving the showgrounds. "Well, on THIS day we see..." and "TODAY perhaps the x is slightly lacking"

You don't get these professionals to show in these classes again the instant someone says "Have you ever ridden a young horse before?"

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot....indeed!

[ise@ssl]

I'm not placing the blame on the Coach - I'm just saying the current system isn't working. Tiki is right about logistics -it's completely lopsided. And actually many of the horses that just missed making the cut off (by a couple of low ball judges - who probably haven't trained young horses for this EVER) were trained and ridden by people who did not work with the coach.

And if horses in Europe could qualify with one score then that should be the same process HERE. Why would the FEI establish a minimum score to get to the Championships and let the US use a complex, layered system with some judges who don't even know what they are judging and/or how to score it.

What will we end up with given the current situation, a lot of people going to Europe and buying horses just to qualify over there? I had always hoped this would start to provide a venue for high quality horses like Valeska and some others who just missed the minimum to head to Europe - gain experience and insight and return to help improve our system here.

And I cringe at the thought of how some people completely lose their minds with a microphone. Score what you see, talk about what you saw in the horses' tests and leave this snipey witchy stuff for Halloween. As I posted on another thread the question back to the judge who asked about riding a young horse should have been ..........."HAVE YOU & AT A VENUE LIKE THIS?"

[YankeeLawyer]

I had always hoped this would start to provide a venue for high quality horses like Valeska and Cabana Boy who are bred here to represent the US.

Me too.

[freestyle2music]

When I watch the selection procedure for these YH classes in Holland, I see many very high qualified judges who always give very extensive comments on a horse and rider. (many videos of these selections are on my videoblog). And I often hear remarks in the line of "he didn't perform so well this time in the trot, but we could see the reason for it and we also know from earlier tests that he can easily score a 9, so this time we gave him a 8.5".

Isn't this where it is all about with these young horses.

SEE THEIR POTENTIAL

[tartanfarm]

And if horses in Europe could qualify with one score then that should be the same process HERE. Why would the FEI establish a minimum score to get to the Championships and let the US use a complex, layered system with some judges who don't even know what they are judging and/or how to score it.
"

Plus we have that wonderful instruction to the judge (judges guidelines page 3) about keeping track of the previous horses marks to that the appropriate order is maintained.

Makes you wonder if they knew the scores from Europe before Raleigh

[carovet]

I just feel the process should be more transparent. Who are the people reviewing the tapes and what are their credentials with Young Horses? We've already seen here where many of the judges don't have additional training in this type of judging and the consistency in the approach to the judging method is varying to the detrement of the riders/horses. If the current Coach isn't GROWING the program and resulting in more and more horses breaking over the minimum score threshhold - it's time to consider if this is the right coach. I feel strongly the Coach should be giving clinics in varying parts of the country on a more regular basis. Paying for this is possible with the fees paid by the participants and some auditing fees. I've put on regular clinics - it can be done. But the training sessions need to be open to more horse/riders and the selection process needs to be done by someone with the EYES for seeing which horses have the ability to be competitive in the Young Horse Championships.

This issue of judges from day to day having completely different "eyes" isn't creating a construction, consistent program that can not only grow the number of participants but keep current participants coming back with more horses. Personal nasty comments should preclude a judge from being involved in the competition judging in the future. In fact, the participants in the Young Horse competitions should receive a survey at the end of each show to comment on what they felt about the judging. They should also be queried on what THEY felt they needed as far as training or judging in the future.

I think that scott is extremely knowledgeable and respected not just in the us but also in europe for his young horse expertise. My understanding is that the young horse program doesn't have the funding to pay to have more frequent clinics as it is without having to fly a coach/clinician in from europe for each of those clinics.

I value scott's opinion above 90% of the judges that are judging the YH program in the US.

I do agree that it would lovely if there were more clinics and more locations, however we must remember that the program may have grown beyond it's infancy, but it is not nearly a matured program yet. Adding the 4 year old test and the 7-9 year old for the national program has been a huge endeavor and I support the expanding of the national program before worrying too much about the international program.

and I *think* (but not sure) that a very large portion of the funding for the national young horse program (clinics, championships, scott, ....probably not jennifer) comes from private sources and not usef general funds

Don't I remember that Parra qualified his horse for verden last year only to be told he could not compete that american owned horse because he the rider was not a us citizen? That does seem to be a bit of a double standard (fyi, i think anyone should be able to ride, but that isn't what the rules say and i don't think it is right to refuse to bend one year and then backflip another year).

part of scott's fan club

carovet

[ise@ssl]

Well this isn't about fan clubs - it's about a selection process that is different than Europe, judges who clearly aren't consistently experienced in this type of competition and as stated earlier in this thread and others - a procedure for offering the classes that was not clear to many show secretaries.

The fact that the USEF/USDF do not place the Young Horse championships at the level of importance that it deserves is part of the problem. For the sporthorse breeding world in the United States - these Young Horse Championships ARE high performance. There's no reason why the US Equestian Federation can't lend a hand with funding the horse/riders combinations who qualify to go to the Championsihips.

There were several horse/rider combinations that really should have made this year's final selection but one or two scores from judges who may or may not understand the process - brought down the averages. To then see that horses/riders in Europe could qualify with one score above the cut off - shows an incredible inequity in the system.

So- who is pointing this out to the USEF/USDF? As far as inferring the program is in it's infancy here is a weak position to take. It's not like Dressage arrived in the US a few decades ago - it's had an ongoing existence and adding a program should be looked at as a normal expansion - not some huge challenge.

The void of Young Horse trainers has been discussed at length on these boards and the programs currently being offered are not filling the void. Making the selection process for this program more different than the European counterparts -begs the question - WHO in the USEF/USDF is determining a selection process? I CANNOT believe there aren't more young horses with capable riders/trainers who could qualify for this competition. The program is NOT facilitating growth.

[YankeeLawyer]

The void of Young Horse trainers has been discussed at length on these boards and the programs currently being offered are not filling the void. Making the selection process for this program more different than the European counterparts -begs the question - WHO in the USEF/USDF is determining a selection process? I CANNOT believe there aren't more young horses with capable riders/trainers who could qualify for this competition. The program is NOT facilitating growth.

I completely agree. But as I recall from previous threads on this topic, many felt that unless the horse scored 9s here it had no business competing in Europe. My problem is with the judging issues, which most seem to agree are problematic, and the selection process itself. It is my impression that, perhaps in an effort to demonstrate that we have "standards" here, the judges have gone overboard, and ironically have set no consistent standard or clear message as to what one needs to do to qualify (though apparently in some instances they did not miss the opportunity to berate the riders for their alleged shortcomings).

Is our Young Horse Coach disturbed by what occurred this year? I would be very frustrated if I were in his position to see how the qualifiers played out -- at the judging level.


Meanwhile, I will be rooting for Valeska and hope she goes over there and kicks some butt.

[freestyle2music]

Maybeeee you could find some riders for us. ;)

In Holland we have the problem that several horses got qualified for Verden, but since the riders of these horses are competing in HongKong they have to stay home.

Theo

[ridgeback]

Don't I remember that Parra qualified his horse for verden last year only to be told he could not compete that american owned horse because he the rider was not a us citizen? That does seem to be a bit of a double standard (fyi, i think anyone should be able to ride, but that isn't what the rules say and i don't think it is right to refuse to bend one year and then backflip another year).

carovet

AMEN!!!!!!!!

[ise@ssl]

I wonder how the judges here would have scored the two horses that qualified in Europe for the US.

As far as this year - maybe they changed the rules because it was a little embarassing that the judging system here only had one horse qualifying.

[siegi b.]

I think the FEI Young Horse program is going through some growing pains, and as this program matures we will see better judging, more qualifying classes, and better horses.

As a breeder I'm glad we have the FEI Young Horse program since it allows us to showcase youngsters that we have bred, and I was glad to see the "American Bred" awards at the championships. In my ideal world these classes would be populated with horses bred in the USA with the USEF stipulating that only American bred contenders could compete in Vechta.

I know, I know.... dream on!

[Mardi]

Interesting that the ONE HORSE headed to Verden from the US didn't go to any training sessions and clearly the rider Willy Arts doesn't need a coach. Maybe he should be hired to teach some of these clinics.

IMHO, Willy has been underutilized in our national training programs.

[DownYonder]

IMHO, Willy has been underutilized in our national training programs.

I agree. However, if he is an employee of DG Bar Ranch, it could be considered a conflict of interest for him to accept money for training outside horses. I believe that Scott Hassler had a bit of the same problem at Hilltop. It's not exactly kosher to be on the payroll of one company but take money from your employer's competitors.

[canyonoak]

<< In my ideal world these classes would be populated with horses bred in the USA with the USEF stipulating that only American bred contenders could compete in Vechta.>>


I agree with all this, just thinking...maybe Verden instead of Vechta?

LOL

[freestyle2music]

<< In my ideal world these classes would be populated with horses bred in the USA with the USEF stipulating that only American bred contenders could compete in Vechta.>>


I agree with all this, just thinking...maybe Verden instead of Vechta?

LOL

But than it might be much cheaper and better for the horses to ship the European judges to the USA. :lol:;):cool:

The same they do for the Friesian selections .

[ise@ssl]

Chris what is the difference with where Scott is now as compared to his past association with Hilltop? Riveredge is owned by the Malones of Harmony Sporthorses in CO.

And I agree with the comments on Willy Arts - he's a tremendous resource.

[YankeeLawyer]

It's not exactly kosher to be on the payroll of one company but take money from your employer's competitors.

I see your point, but I would welcome any help from him with my horses, regardless of his other affiliations.

[DownYonder]

Chris what is the difference with where Scott is now as compared to his past association with Hilltop? Riveredge is owned by the Malones of Harmony Sporthorses in CO.

And I agree with the comments on Willy Arts - he's a tremendous resource.

It is my understanding that Scott was a salaried employee at Hilltop. I don't know what his financial arrangements are with the Malones, but would assume that since he operates an independent business - Hassler Dressage, where they stand/manage/train stallions for other clients besides the Malones - that he would be working for Harmony not as a salaried employee, but rather on a professional fee basis. Of course, I could be wrong, but I can't see any employer allowing their employee to earn money by working with/for other clients in the same business. Besides, it results in other issues for the employee. Who gets the bulk of the employee's time, focus, dedication, etc. - the employer who gives them a paycheck every two weeks, or the outside clients?