Renvers-in laymans terms please?

[kahjul]

So my trainer was teaching me renvers yesterday in my lesson. She seemed please with the results, I however, was very confused. Can those in the know give me your step-by-step for helping students understand their body position in renvers, and also the aids used? Usually someone here has something that gives me a lightbulb moment.
TIA

[FriesianX]

Renvers and Travers are fancy names for Haunches Out and Haunches In.

You want the horse to BEND, so inside leg (inside to the bend, not to the rail) becomes very important. And you want your weight shifted a bit to the side of the bend. So I think step into the stirrup on the side of the bend (on the rail side for renvers), then use the leg to create the stability and bend of keeping the horse's shoulders on the track. You want the front legs to move along the track as if the horse were straight - i.e. parellell to the track. Use your other leg BACK to move the haunches over. Keep thinking front half of the horse straight down the track, back half of the horse sideways. If necessary, do some little adjustments with your inside rein (again, inside to the bend, which is the rail side on renvers) to keep the horse flexing and supple. You may need to consciously think of shifting your weight to the inside of the bend, because many horses will try to push you over so they can straighten to leg yield.

Start at the walk, everything is slower and easier to think about! It feels a little like your legs are scissored at first ;)

[ideayoda]

The haunches are already on the track, you do not move them over (as in travers). The hindlegs are sustained on the track, the shoulders are moved in, but the horse's forehand looks straight ahead (down the long side). (Too often riders allow the horse to look at the wall, but the horse must look at the inside track). One could say it is the revers of travers, but it is how it is begun which in part defines it.

[slc2]

"Use your other leg BACK to move the haunches over"

Absolutely incorrect.

They are not fancy names for haunches in and haunches out.

Haunches in is travers, and is done with a bend, just like the bend of a circle. The horse starts out on the line of travel, and the haunches are actually moved inward, so the horse's position is exactly the same as if he were just taking the last step or two of a circle.

haunches out is not in any dressage test. It is a schooling exercise that some people use (NOT ME), and is done with no bend. It is a kind of a modification of a leg yield type position. It is NOT the same as renvers.

Haunches out is ALSO not the same as shoulder in!

Renvers is done with a bend in the body and the haunches are NOT moved OUT.

Haunches out is not done with a bend in the body and the haunches are pushed OUT - their position is changed. There is no dressage movement in any dressage test where the haunches are moved OUT off the line of travel or OUT off the line of a circle (curved line of travel). In all movements in dressage tests, haunches are always either maintained on the line of travel, or moved IN off the line of travel (straight or curved).

Shoulder in, Travers, Renvers, Half Pass, Pirouette, Turn on the Haunches, are all done with a bend in the body exactly like that of a circle. In the half pass, the horse is not bent as much through the last part of the hindquarter, but all the lateral work in a test is essentially done using the same bend as on a circle.

Renvers is not 'haunches out'. Thinking of it that way, riding it that way, leads to incorrect performance of the movement and all movements associated with it.

Renvers is 'ok, do shoulder in...okay, now without changing ANYTHING ELSE, DON'T MOVE THE SHOULDERS, DON'T MOVE THE HAUNCHES.....leave 'em where they are...ok...now...juuuuust....change the bend, have the horse's head look a little to the outside...'.

The haunches do not change their position in renvers. The horse remains in a 'shoulder in position', with his SHOULDERS in exactly the same position (relative to the straight line of travel) as the first stride of a two of a circle, when the shoulders come in to 'follow the circle line'.

Shoulder in has two parts. Angle and bend.

The ANGLE is - shoulders are offset in off the track.

In SHOULDER In, the bend is INWARD.

The ANGLE is the same in renvers. The shoulders are offset in off the track. Only the BEND changes. Now the bend is to the outside. The bend is not changed by changing the position of the hind quarters or shoulders, which remain the same. The bend is ONLY changed by changing the bend, not by repositioning anything.

The entire point of renvers, is that you can change your bend independently of your angle.

You can take an angle and a bend, and without repositioning ANYTHING - JUST - change the bend. That's what renvers is, that's what gives it its difficulty and its meaning. If you move the shoulders or haunches, you're missing the entire value (and the score!).

The ONLY thing different in renvers is the bend. The shoulders stay right where they would be for a shoulder in.

THAT'S WHY....one can do as asked in the test, without doing ANYTHING except changing the bend.

In shoulder in, to renvers, what you do is ride shoulder in, change the bend of the neck and head, that's it. That's why the movement in the test is totally smooth, without coming off the track and coming back to it in a renvers position or anything of the kind...all it is is shoulder in....change the bend, there you are, renvers.

[egontoast]

renvers is basically the mirror image of travers.

Actually, some fairly knowledgeable people do refer to renvers as haunches out (eg Kyra Kyrkland, for one). It's just a term to differentiate it from haunches in , not a directive to push the haunches anywhere. The haunches stay moving along the track (wall if going down the long side).

A simple way to get your head around it if going down the long side is to place an imaginary wall to the inside and travers down it. The horse looks in the direction of the movement just as with travers . Mirror image, basically.

[Janet]

FWIW, I have never heard "haunches out" used to refer to an exercise with "no bend" (e.g. a variant of leg yield).

I have always heard "haunches out" used as a "shorthand" or "English name" for "renvers".

[Spectrum]

Okay, so here's the definitive difference between haunches-in and shoulder-in: which part of the body is tracking straight and which is crossing over?

In shoulder-in, the hind end tracks straight and the front legs cross over slightly. In the haunches-in, the front legs track straight and the hind legs cross over.

In the renver, shouldn't the the front end theoretically track straight and the hind legs cross over? If so, wouldn't it be haunches-out from an inner track?

Or do both cross over slightly? This would seem like a half-pass down the wall to me.

It seems like slc's description would indicate the positioning stays the same, which would mean the hind end tracks straight, the front end crosses over and the bend is to the outside (the direction of travel). That would involve s-curving the horse's spine, which is not correct (but would definitely explain why so many people have problems with the renver, if this method is what they are inadvertently trying to do).

Slc's method describes the steps to learn the renver if you've never ridden it (ie riding shoulder in and changing the bend), but I don't think I agree that it is the most accurate way to describe what renver is ultimately as a movement.

Spectrum.

[slc2]

how could the two things possibly be any different?:):lol:

[MelantheLLC]

Well this oughta clear things up for the OP. :lol:

[FriesianX]

Well this oughta clear things up for the OP. :lol:


No kidding :eek: I read Kyra all the time, she's one of my favorite Dressage Training authors - maybe it just depends on WHO you read as to what Renvers is? The set up is a bit different, but to think of what the two movements are - HI and HO are just reverse mirror pictures of each other. And absolutely, there MUST BE BEND in both movements. No bend = leg yield on the wall. HO is not the official term, but to explain WHAT the movement is, it is a very easy way to think of it. The rules and judge training all describe the two movements as the inverse of each other.

And I probably should have said the "outside" (again to the bend) leg HOLDS the haunches over. I think of pushing because you must keep the horse moving (one big mistake you often see is the horse stalls out in the lateral work), so you are using leg aids to push the horse along, keep the haunches over, and keep the bend. Multi-tasking seat and legs.

The legs crossing are not as important as the lowering of the inside (to the bend) hip. But in effect, the hind legs cross, the front legs travel straight.

OP - probably the best way to understand renvers is to ask your own trainer, so you don't get all the mixed messages from us :cool:

[egontoast]

It's really not all that confusing unless you read what slc wrote.

[kahjul]

Well...thanks?!? No, actually it was quite helpful because slc described it exactly as my trainer had. Start here in SI, then here, you change your body aids to this, and therefore change the horses neck bend only to this. For my brain, however when I read it as haunches-in (toward the wall) it explains why the shoulders are off and allows my head to make sense of the bend. Right or wrong, it rode much easier today, partly because we've at least tried it before, and partly because my brain wasn't so confused!
So, again, thanks to you all, we'll see what the trainer says next lesson.

[slc2]

pffft, egon!

tanks, kaj.

everyone needs the trainer who screams things like 'shoulder in has two things, angle and bend, angle and bend, angle and bend' at you for 2 yrs, lol.

The other thing I've seen is that people who do a lot of counter bending exercises to supple their horse at training and first level tend to have a lot less trouble, conceptually, with renvers, because it separates the horse's position from his bend. When the instructor says, 'shoulder in, ok now COUNTERBEND', LOL...their head doesn't explode...especially if the trainer is smart enough to not CALL IT RENVERS, LOL.

it's great that you're learning renvers. it is a really powerful exercise!

at first, horses often will slow down alot and lose some rhythm in renvers. you'll know it is 'perfected' when you can go down the long side, do renvers, and feel no change in rhythm from the 'usual trot'.

[CatOnLap]

In renvers, just as in shoulder in, the horse's forehand moves on a track half a step insde the track of the inside hind foot. But in contrast to shoulder-in, the horse is flexed in the direction in which he is moving.
... the rider's outside leg keeps the horse's quarters on the track...weight on the inside seat bone...rider's shoulder's parallel to the horse's shoulders and his hips parallel to the horse's hips...rider's outside leg supports the horse behind the girth.
They teach the renvers by starting in shoulder-in on the track, doing a half pirouette :eek: and continuing in renvers. Difficult much? I prefer just to change the bend- start in shoulder in, straighten, then continue in renvers.

The index in Kyra's book under "haunches-out" says " See renvers". But I guess she never read the same book as you.

[slc2]

the way she uses the words is slightly different from how americans do.

considering what she's done, i think no one is really going to stand in her way.

[lstevenson]

haunches out is not in any dressage test. It is a schooling exercise that some people use (NOT ME), and is done with no bend. It is a kind of a modification of a leg yield type position. It is NOT the same as renvers.



Wrong. A real haunches out does have bend. I've never heard anyone claim otherwise. Wherever did you hear that one slc?

Some very well known and respected trainers say that haunches out is the same as renvers.

And some others say that in a true haunches out, the haunches are moved over (to the outside) with bend. Which would make that different from renvers, which is when the horse LOOKS like he is doing a haunches out, but it's the shoulders that have moved over to create the angle.

[Spectrum]

It's really not all that confusing unless you read what slc wrote.

No kidding! I am actually pretty good at renver and get good scores on it (most of the time) but after reading that I felt like my head was put in a blender. That was hours ago and I'm still confused, LOL.

But seriously... should the shoulders be tracking straight or crossing over slightly?

So, just now I googled renvers definition: the inverse of travers.

That's not helpful! LOL.

[~Freedom~]

Wrong. A real haunches out does have bend. I've never heard anyone claim otherwise. Wherever did you hear that one slc?



Someone made a big boo boo in their googling ?:lol:

Guess that is why the caps are in that post.

[Balance]

Why has no one mentioned that in both SI and HI the horse travels on three tracks? The simplest way to keep this straight in your mind is to think of which part of the horses body does the movement require for you to move over to travel on three tracks?
Si, means I need to move his outside shoulder over to travel on the same track as the inside hind. Obviously, there is a bend involved, however if all you do is focus on the bend, you risk winding up doing a "neck in " instead of a shoulder in. Same thing for HI, use your leg and bring his outside hind in to travel on the same track as his inside fore. This is how I keep it simple for myself, hope it helps.

[goeslikestink]

op renvers are hunches out and travers are hunches in ok

the aids for hunches out whilse moving counter clockwise around the arena are as thats what you asked bring neddy into left schoulder in then

see below these are your aids you need

right indirect rein
left leg behind the girth
right leg at the girth


always do the tasks or new movements in walk always always always, undertstand that revners is the reverse of the hunches in, ok,

so make sure horses tail turned towards the wall instead of towards the inside of the arena when the movement is along the rail the schoulders must be brought of the track
the movement begins so that the hunches will not bump into the railings --

so if we doing it in walk whilse moving counter clockwise of the arena,bring the neddy into a left schoulder in of the track

then move the neddy in a right hand bend with an indirect right rein, with left leg slide it back a tad,to keep the hunches on the track making a bend and with right leg at the girth position pressing firmly -- wallor - you have done a renvers or hunches out


in laymens terms as requested


another posters long comments are slighty incorect the person is learning the smae as you are and isnt a trainer so msiatkes have been duely noted by other posters people can learn by others mistakes if they want there horse to perform the correct movement

[slc2]

Renvers is not haunches out even if haunches out WERE done with a bend, however one wants to define it it is still not a haunches out - though a few instructors will say to you, 'remember, do renvers, haunches out' to try and give the student the idea, they do NOT mean you should move the haunches outward to create renvers. That would be incorrect.

The reason alot of people don't actually do a <manouver in which the haunches are pushed OUTWARD off the line of travel> is because that is not asked in any dressage test, and there is a very good reason that is not asked for in any dressage test.

The whole idea of renvers is that you can be in one position, and only change the bend and maintain the same position (angle) to line of travel. That's what gives it its whole value and uniqueness.

The haunches are not moved into a different position in renvers, they are not pushed out.

That is no mistake I wrote up there - that is just a fact, that is renvers, however you decide to define haunches out, the haunches are not repositioned to start renvers or to maintain it.

And additionally, even if you initiated renvers by performing a pirouette, the haunches would STILL not be off the line of travel during the renvers.

That's just how it is - there is no mistake in saying that.

The haunches stay exactly where they were (or would be) in shoulder in - only the bend changes, not the overall position of the horse.

The outside of the bend leg, the 'outside' leg, only guards the haunches, just as it would on a circle. It does not move the haunches out from where they were, further, one never corrects anything or any straightness problem by pushing the haunches out, but by moving the shoulders in. This principle is consistent with the positioning in all lateral work.

[merrygoround]

FWIW, I have never heard "haunches out" used to refer to an exercise with "no bend" (e.g. a variant of leg yield).

I have always heard "haunches out" used as a "shorthand" or "English name" for "renvers".

Amen!

However, in MHO, the bend comes from the inside leg-inside being defined by the bend, the outside leg supports the bend. It truly should not push the quarters in, but simply support them. When done properly the inside rein is nearly superfluous. :lol:

[egontoast]

The haunches are not moved into a different position in renvers, they are not pushed out.


gee, slc, most people here did not even say that you push the haunches out so interesting you would focus on that. I think you chose to misread what was written, for example:

Actually, some fairly knowledgeable people do refer to renvers as haunches out (eg Kyra Kyrkland, for one). It's just a term to differentiate it from haunches in , not a directive to push the haunches anywhere. The haunches stay moving along the track (wall if going down the long side).


This is what I posted , for example, and, no, I don't think it's just poor English on Kyra's part which explains her use of 'haunches out' for renvers.

the way she uses the words is slightly different from how americans do.




It's used by many respected trainers (even americans!) with more experience in their pinky fingers than you or I will ever possess. Go have a look in your extensive library! Ok, I'll help you. here's one. Sally O'Connor in Common Sense Dressage, p.89:


Exercise Five: The haunches out(renvers).

Essentially this exercise is identical to the travers except the horse moves along the track with the shoulders inside the school and the haunches on the track, bent in the direction of movement. it serves to develop suppleness and bending of the hindquarter.



No doubt that's just some obscure Irish dialect! haha

Podhajsky and Museler used quarters in and quarters out as alternatives to travers and renvers.

DeKunffy uses haunches out for renvers. Etc, etc, etc...

Darn foreigners!

Slc, it's a term to say it's opposite positioning from haunches in. COmprende?

It DOES NOT mean you must push the haunches anywhere, no matter how many times you say it.

[Valentina_32926]

Rider tip: Shoulders should be straight ahead and rider HIPS off to the side (haunches in/out), reverse that for Shoulders in/out - i.e. for SI hips point straight ahead and Riders shoulders point to inside/outside.

[purplnurpl]

Why has no one mentioned that in both SI and HI the horse travels on three tracks? The simplest way to keep this straight in your mind is to think of which part of the horses body does the movement require for you to move over to travel on three tracks?
Si, means I need to move his outside shoulder over to travel on the same track as the inside hind. Obviously, there is a bend involved, however if all you do is focus on the bend, you risk winding up doing a "neck in " instead of a shoulder in. Same thing for HI, use your leg and bring his outside hind in to travel on the same track as his inside fore. This is how I keep it simple for myself, hope it helps.

when in the school my horse never travels on three tracks. That's too easy. blech.

and in dressage tests your are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
If you ride three tracks the judge writes, "not enough angle"
If you ride four tracks the judge writes, "too much angle"

I don't know why you guys have to make such an easy suject so dang difficult to understand.
aaahahahhahaaa!

[purplnurpl]

gee, slc, most people here did not even say that you push the haunches out so interesting you would focus on that.

You don't have to actually say that you push the haunches out. It's in the title discription. That is why we don't use it as explanation for renverse.

[purplnurpl]

Is that I love these exercises.
My fav is: down the long side

travers, change to shoulder in, change to renverse, change to shoulder in and then

Change direction via 15 meter 1/2 circle and half pass back to wall.

I will honestly admit that I cannot get my butt in the right position for 1/2 pass unless I do renverse first.

Makes me feel fancy.
yey!!!
fun fun fun.

[goeslikestink]

Is that I love these exercises.
My fav is: down the long side

travers, change to shoulder in, change to renverse, change to shoulder in and then

Change direction via 15 meter 1/2 circle and half pass back to wall.

I will honestly admit that I cannot get my butt in the right position for 1/2 pass unless I do renverse first.

Makes me feel fancy.
yey!!!
fun fun fun.

haha --little eventer that you are, haha fun is what its all about no hard stuff just fun stuff and enjoy the horse and if you can be sucessful in being haarmony with his movements then its a blig plus haha

[merrygoround]

I'd rather workH/P from the shoulder fore.

[FriesianX]

SLC2, I realize you don't like the word push or the use of "haunches out", but here is a quote from Kyra for Travers - "the outside leg is positioned slightly behind the girth and pushes the hindquarters to the side". Then for Renvers, which she notates in parens (Haunches-out), "in principle, the same movement as travers".

The OP asked for information in "layman's terms" - so my post simply tried to break it down in layman's terms. In dressage we tend to get windy and esoteric - and that doesn't always help people.

[egontoast]

You don't have to actually say that you push the haunches out. It's in the title discription. That is why we don't use it as explanation for renverse.

Who are 'we'. You and slc? There's no verb in there. It describes relative positioning.

Kyra, Podhajsky ,Museler, O'Connor, De Kunffy and countless others have no dificulty understanding that haunches out or quarters out is generally accepted as an alternate term for renvers and simply means that the hindquarters are positioned to the outside as opposed to the inside. Slc is pretending that the only reason Kyra uses that term is because of difficulties with English. That's not true .

[purplnurpl]

I darn well better be having fun!!
Even if it is hard it better be enjoyable, otherwise why would I play? I spend my life's earnings on my horse.
:)

and when I'm pissed off in the dressage arena, horsie and I throw on the jump saddle and go fly over a friggin big ditch and wall. (that's hard too, and it scares the crap out of me, but boy oh boy it's fun!!)

And with the whole terminology thing. Ya know. Shoulder in we move the shoulder OFF the track.
Traverse or [haunches in] we move the haunch OFF the track.
For renverse (or what some would like to call haunches out) do we move the haunch?
Kinda to influence bend. but not off the track.

and WE, is a general term. I have no connection to SLC. But thanks for asking.

It's inconsistent wording. That was my point.

[egontoast]

It's not all that confusing if you think about it.

[goeslikestink]

oh for god sake- slc2 no ones pushing the horse the right leg stays on the girth and presses it as in --- leg on ---the left leg is behind the girth-
if you do not stuff your legs on a neddy and give him clear signals of direction ie the way you want to move him-- ie his body -- then i guess some horses might just stand still and wait for eturnity and think of england or have a ---pooh



here op does all the movements of schoulder in's legs yeilds and renvers
and travers with diagrams and explanations for you its pubished in a book and web page so should be
authentic enough for you to use ok little tip wanna watch your tail end ok dokey


http://www.eques.com.au/training/june/forward.htm

[CatOnLap]

or what some would like to call haunches out...
...it's inconsistent wording.
Hardly. Its your wording that is inconsistent with the mainstream of the dressage world.
"Some" would like to think that haunches out has no bend and is simply a leg yield, butt to the wall. That's a useful exercise I suppose, but its called "leg yield butt to the wall", not "haunches out".
Most classical and other high level trainers would not agree with "some".Thanks to Egon for providing a very high profile, but only partial list.

Those poor ignorant trainers who disagree with "some" will continue to teach us that the proper way to do haunches out, oh forgive me, RENVERS, is to have the shoulders tracking straight (off the arena track by a couple of hoofprints), the horse looking in and bent towards the direction of travel, and the outside hind leg traveling in the track of the inside foreleg. Of course, you also have to know that in dressage, "outside" and "inside" refer to the legs in relation to the bend of the horse's body, not in relation to the wall of the arena! In haunches out or renvers on the long side going on the left rein, the inside leg is actually the (right)leg closest to the arena wall because the bend in the body is towards the wall (right), in the direction of travel. You weight your (right)inside seat bone(closest to the wall) in the direction of travel ( which is to the left), and your outside leg ( left, which is on the inside of the arena) goes behind the girth to maintain the bend and sweep that outside (left)hind along.

[~Freedom~]

Anytime you need any help to understand the differences in all the lateral moves SLC you just come over and I will put you up on my old schoolie.

[purplnurpl]

renvers is basically the mirror image of travers.



did you mean to say the mirror image of Shoulder In?
because the mirror image of travers would have my horse's butt hanging out of the area.

now draw out some little pictures and choose one...as if you were taking the geomentry section of the highschool exit exams.

oh ya, and just incase you didn't know, the S is silent in both terms.

[egontoast]

did you mean to say the mirror image of Shoulder In?
because the mirror image of travers would have my horse's butt hanging out of the area.

now draw out some little pictures and choose one...as if you were taking the geomentry section of the highschool exit exams.


No. I meant mirror image of travers, not shoulder in. Flip the image the other way or maybe you'd better try it in a big field if you are worried about the walls. :cool:

What is "geomentry"? Did you pass your exam?

oh ya, and just incase you didn't know, the S is silent in both terms.
__________________

:lol: No kidding. We know these things in France :lol:

[MelantheLLC]

This whole thread just makes me want to take up barrel racing.

[egontoast]

This whole thread just makes me want to take up barrel racing

with a Belgian!;)

[purplnurpl]

LMAO.

*********

oh, shhhh. No one saw me laughing.

Ehh-hem. Well, my lowest score was spelling.
But I'm a biochemist/biomechanist. So no ones counting points and most applications have spell check.


MelontheLLC:
Most of us are here just getting a kick out of conversation. At least I hope that is the case.

[Bronte]

Hi Kahjul

Start here in SI, then here, you change your body aids to this, and therefore change the horses neck bend only to this.

While everyone is debating ~ just a little clarification here!

Neck bend is the evil twin sister of shoulder in, travers & renvers!! The bend is in the body, around the inside leg.

[crthunder]

The only way I ever really "figured out" how to ride renvers was when my instructor (on her school master) had me ride half-pass to the wall with slight haunches leading and stop "half-passing" when the horse's rear was on the track and then go "straight" down the rail.

Which may not make sense but it was how von-ziegner helped her learn it so it I wasn't about to argue :)

Becky

[nhwr]

I ride renvers like shoulder in (haunches on the track, shoulders to the inside) with counter bend, just enough so the horse looking straight ahead. The aids are basically the same as S/I but coordinated a bit differently.

Works for me :yes:

[kahjul]

WOW:O!!! I'm actually sorry I posted!

[nhwr]

I think the reason this is so "controversial" is the result of how most people think of shoulder in. Shoulder in, yeah we get that. But what shoulder are you talking about, the inside shoulder or the outside shoulder :confused:
Shoulder in is about the outside shoulder. When you get that, renvers is not too tough.