Tarek the draft-dressage horse

[CentreEquestre]

What this lady has done with this guy is incredible. I have posted videos of him in the past, couldn't find the thread (if anyone knows where it went...). Here is the link. very inspiring.
http://www.drafthorsevillage.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2879

[Ambrey]

I LOVE that horse!

[CentreEquestre]

Found the link!
http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e195/ganzneu/2008/sady/?action=view&current=DSCF0071.flv

[Donella]

That horse is definately "off" in the trot.

[PaddyUK]

I'm sorry but all the pictures and video show is that you can take any horse, put it in white boots/bandages and a white square and dressage saddle and call it a Dressage Horse.

Nice lad, if that is what floats your boat but not a dressage horse.

The action just is not there.

There is no over track in walk or trot.

The horse is not built to bring his hind end under.

The canter looks almost 4 time on occassions.

The photo of the lady cantering is just bad. Unbalanced and "motorbiking".

Sorry but that is what I see.


Paddy

[slc2]

Well, that's really the basic question. Whether taking a horse of a completely different type for a given sport and having him do that sport, is good or not. I don't think anyone who has a draft or draft cross is going to see those photos the way you do, PaddyUK. They're going to see it how they want to see it, which is, it's a beautiful horse, a SOUND horse, NOT off at the trot (how COULD it be? draft horses are sturdy and strong!) and the fact that those pictures show him jumping in the air and going in dressage tack is a triumph and a 'I told you so, you stupid mean snob' to the rest of the riding world for every person who owns a draft or heavy draft cross and wants to do dressage (and wants everyone to agree with him/her that this is a great idea, and that the horse will be very successful at any level).

The problem is, 'they can't do it' isn't quite the truth. They can. You can train any horse to do anything, to be perfectly honest, that's not really the question, the question is should you. I was asked to train a Percheron that had turn a ligament doing barrel racing. I refused. The horse jogged out lame.

No, he wasn't doing barrel racing at the national barrel racing championships against all breeds; most of the time, these folks don't do that at all

He was doing it at a draft horse show. They have barrel racing classes for draft horses to prove they're 'versatile'.

If the horse had done the barrels slowly at a trot, if he had been fittened up for more than 3 days before the event, if, if, if...no one knows.

But what you're fighting if you don't particularly care for this sort of thing, is, that it's the breed organization itself that is promoting the horses running barrels. They're offering the classes, they're cheering as the animals try to do this. This is their definition of 'versatility', that you can run barrels with the draft horse.

Is that a good definition of 'versatility'?

I don't think it serves the breed, but what it does serve is publicity and sales. I think it's a terrible shame.

Versatility classes for morgans are a different matter, so don't beat me over the head with that.

Versatility for a draft would probably be better defined, at least more to the good of the breed, as working in different kinds of harness and teams and vehicles, which is a real triumph of training, to have a horse that works in any position, any implement or vehicle, any hitch, to ride quietly and at a moderate pace under saddle cross country with hilltopping or trail-type obstacles, to stand to be clipped, shod, etc, and i think classes like that would be super, like a pentathalon.

[Kaeleer]

He might look more like a dressage horse if he weren't so fat, but I doubt it.

He's a sweet, kind boy who likes to please. Why isn't that enough for some people?

[egontoast]

The Op said this

"What this lady has done with this guy is incredible."

Yes. She rescued this guy from slaughter and has done some cool things with him. She does not claim that everything she's doing is dressage. She says she also does 'trick and circus' training with him. I don't know why some people are giving themselves wedgies over this. :cool:

Great story.

[Mags]

I think Tarek is great and Sady has done a wonderful job. I thought dressage means to train the horse. I started taking lesson with a dressage trainer. The horse I ride is a full percheron who for years was a hack in a big city. He is learning to be soft and supple. Isn't that what it's all about. I don't see any reason why us folks with drafts shouldn't benefit from the training.

[Phyxius]

Found the link!
http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e195/ganzneu/2008/sady/?action=view&current=DSCF0071.flv

They also have a youtube. http://www.youtube.com/user/Sadylike

[Phyxius]

He was doing it at a draft horse show. They have barrel racing classes for draft horses to prove they're 'versatile'.


But what you're fighting if you don't particularly care for this sort of thing, is, that it's the breed organization itself that is promoting the horses running barrels. They're offering the classes, they're cheering as the animals try to do this. This is their definition of 'versatility', that you can run barrels with the draft horse.

I don't think it serves the breed, but what it does serve is publicity and sales. I think it's a terrible shame.



While you may see barrel racing at draft horse shows you will not see it a percheron breed shows. While the association does believe and understand that the percheron is a versatile and able bodied animal the association is still by and large an "old boys" club and riding is NOT important to the powers that be. Members have worked hard to keep the TWO riding classes offered at most percheron shows, english pleasure and western pleasure. The World Percheron Congress switches host countries and this year it is in Canada and they've doubled the number of riding classes by adding a ridden trail class and a jumping class, show jumping style with jumps 2'6"-2'9".

So before you malign a breed organization you may want to check the facts.

[slc2]

This was a Percheron, being shown at a draft horse show. Perhaps it was not a show put on by the percheron horse association, but it was put on at a draft horse show, so obviously, SOMEONE thinks this advertises draft horses well.

[canticle]

OMG somebody call PETA!!! This is CRUELTY!!! :lol:

[cu.at.x]

My, my, have we got some Dressage Queens here.

Just because a horse is not built like Ferro and will never go to the Olympics doesn't mean one can't use Dressage principles to train. In fact if every horse were trained in such a way, no matter what its intended discipline, the horse world in general would be much better for it.

Shame on some of you for dissing this horse for trying his heart out for this kind lady who saved him. He doesn't look pushed or stressed; on the contrary he looks HAPPIER, dare I say, than quite a few of the dressage-bred horses in the international arena, and who could blame some of them, with spurs jabbed in their sides every strides and their heads yanked back.

The lady looks to be an effective, quiet rider and the horse looks content. I say more power to them for trying.

[Donella]

Well in all fairness, the OP posts a video of a big draft horse ambling around on a lungeline, clearly NQR at the trot. As in, "hey look, drafts can do dressage"???. I dunno..I don't really see what is so impressive about this?? I don't get it I guess??

[STF]

That fat round boy is making someone very happy and that is all that counts. Her goals and such are her own and that is what matters in the long run.

[MyReality]

I think the lady did a great job rescuing the horse. I thought the story an example of horse rescue, not example of draft doing dressage??

[MelantheLLC]

I thought dressage means to train the horse.

It does. And the OP didn't say "Tarek the Competitive Draft-Dressage Horse." And the owner just says she's trained him using classical methods and a clicker and he's beloved by her young vaulters.

Sounds like one lucky horse and two great hearts that found one another.

[Kaeleer]

Call me cynical, but in light of the post about "Belgians doing dressage", I thought this thread had an agenda.

I think I said in my first post that he's a sweet, kind horse and I mean it. He's just not a dressage horse as I understand the term. OTOH, I don't think the phrase "not a dressage horse" is the insult that so many people deem it to be. My WB is "not a dressage horse" either. Doesn't mean he's any less loved.

[Druid Acres]

My, my, have we got some Dressage Queens here.

Just because a horse is not built like Ferro and will never go to the Olympics doesn't mean one can't use Dressage principles to train. In fact if every horse were trained in such a way, no matter what its intended discipline, the horse world in general would be much better for it.

Shame on some of you for dissing this horse for trying his heart out for this kind lady who saved him. He doesn't look pushed or stressed; on the contrary he looks HAPPIER, dare I say, than quite a few of the dressage-bred horses in the international arena, and who could blame some of them, with spurs jabbed in their sides every strides and their heads yanked back.

The lady looks to be an effective, quiet rider and the horse looks content. I say more power to them for trying.

Well said. My thoughts exactly.

[mishmash]

A wonderful story, but not dressage...

[Wild Oaks Farm]

Oh, I LOVE him!!! :D:D I want him!!

I think of the energy and effort that goes into getting my drafy to pick his feet up to be cleaned, and I can't even BEGIN to imagine getting all four feet of his off the ground at the same time!

She has done an excellent job with him.

[mp]

Call me cynical, but in light of the post about "Belgians doing dressage", I thought this thread had an agenda.

I think I said in my first post that he's a sweet, kind horse and I mean it. He's just not a dressage horse as I understand the term. OTOH, I don't think the phrase "not a dressage horse" is the insult that so many people deem it to be. My WB is "not a dressage horse" either. Doesn't mean he's any less loved.

I was thinking "agenda," too.

I don't understand the horror over the "not dressage/not a dressage horse" label either. My very modest goal with my very non-WB horse is to score 60+ at 1st level. Some day. ;)

I'd say that puts us both solidly in the "not" column. Should I just mumble "nuthin' " when people ask me what I do with my horse? I don't think so.

[Heinz 57]

I don't think anyone who has a draft or draft cross is going to see those photos the way you do, PaddyUK. They're going to see it how they want to see it, ....

I am seriously offended by this quote. (Ok, maybe not seriously - I know what you mean and actually kind of agree). I happen to own a draft cross, but in NO way does that make me as naive as some of the draft and draft cross owners that post here. Don't assume that the draft/cross owning population on COTH is an accurate representation of the mental state or opinion of the general population.

I'd kindly ask you to please not paint "us" all with the same brush. I read much of the same thing towards the end of the 'belgians in dressage' thread; people making comments using the words "all draft/draft x owners" and that "we" just won't understand.

I've spent about 90% of my riding life in dressage. I've ridden some wonderful, talented horses (Warmbloods!) and had some great opportunities at my young age. I'm no FEI rider, hell - I'm not even a dressage person anymore. I moved on to eventing, and should like to stay there a good while. I did not buy my current mount BECAUSE he was a draft x TB. I bought him in spite of the fact that he was part draft. I bought him based on the potential he exhibited (what little potential can be seen out of a 16.2h BIG moving horse in a small round pen!). I wasn't looking for GP potential; just something that would score decently as an event horse, and even only up to Prelim at that. He's not quite done growing, I don't think - he's a touch downhill yet. He's VERY green still, but when he's come along a little farther, I hope to get some video to share with the COTH world for HONEST critique. :)

The horse in question on this thread is cute, yes, and a wonderful story. In no way do I think this is a "successful" representation of a draft horse in dressage, but more likely a demonstration of basic w/t/c on the lunge. Not upper level potential. Yes, I do see some sort of funky steps at the trot, especially from the RH in the first few steps after the transition.

I just do not wish to be painted with the same brush as some of the more naive drafty owners.

[Phyxius]

Maybe the OP will clarify her thoughts in posting this. I too thought it was a story of the horse saved from slaughter and now doing many "neat" things which happen to include dressage and clicker training. I've very breifly talked to the lady who owns that horse, she is quite nice and I don't feel that's it fair to her for the people of COTH to turn her horse into an example of why be should or shouldn't (or can or can not) teach drafts dressage.

I don't know about the OP, but I'd like to keep the Annie Get Your Gun stuff to the other thread, if possible. I doubt anyone wants another 22 page written, quoted, hyperbolic b-fest.

[Ambrey]

Geez, people. Why all the ownership over a word?

She's beautiful. She is who she is and the owner is happy with that, with no need for her to be something different.

[slc2]

is it a b-fest or just a sign of the need for more PMU farms? (to make estrogen medication...) :lol:

[Thomas_1]

I'm thinking akin to these that I really like:

http://www.nigelround.co.uk/artistes/roly_poly.jpg

[cu.at.x]

I'm thinking akin to these that I really like:

http://www.nigelround.co.uk/artistes/roly_poly.jpg

....Real classy. :rolleyes:

[preferred]

I'm thinking akin to these that I really like:

http://www.nigelround.co.uk/artistes/roly_poly.jpg

Thomas,

I've been following your posts on various threads. [This link is offensive and mean-spirited.]

Perhaps one day you may learn grace and compassion.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas,

I've been following your posts on various threads. [This link is offensive and mean-spirited.]

Perhaps one day you may learn grace and compassion.

Its called irony. Its like bronzey or goldy only with humour!

I trust you cannot possibly be serious????!!!!!! You must seriously struggle with real life if you find that offensive.

Gob smacked that you think you know anything or everything about my life from a joke...... Might I suggest dillusions of grandeur!?

[preferred]

Its called irony. Its like bronzey or goldy only with humour!

wrong again! It is just plain rude and obnoxious behavior that alienates people. Life is short, don't make it bitter too......

[preferred]

Some of the video and pics remind me of the Russian trainer Alex N that promotes bitless riding and features the Friesian and the handicapped woman. Thanks for posting....it was nice to see.

[mp]

Thomas,

I've been following your posts on various threads. This highly offensive link defines you as the bitter mean spirited person you are. I feel sorry for the people and animals that must interact with you.

Perhaps one day you may learn grace and compassion.

That is a publicity photo from an agent's site. The Roly Poly ladies are an act. They get paid to go out and dance and entertain people. I would assume they enjoy what they do or they wouldn't be doing it. And the fact that they're a little "roly poly" is part of the schtick.

Get it???? Oh ... never mind.

Life is short, don't make it bitter too......

Thomas ... here's your irony. :lol:

[preferred]

The manner of presentation of this pic/link is meant to hurt and insult the OP and anyone who compliments her efforts.

Don't be so naive to think people don't see through it. :no:

[Ajierene]

See...I took Thomas' picture to mean - they aren't big time ballerinas or competitive ballroom dancers, and they are aware that they will never be, but they have fun with the dance steps and moves they can do.

Thus, the draft in the original post, and his owner, are aware that he is not a fancy Grand Prix dressage horse and never will be, but they are having fun with what they do.

I saw nothing wrong with the picture. But this is my perception and while everyone is allowed their own perception, it is helpful to understand the intent behind the action to understand what is implied and not getting angry because you are inferring something that is not implied and not taking the time to understand the difference.

[slc2]

DILLUSION is the CORRECT spelling!

It is a very obscure medical term, granted, but you SHOULD be aware of the definition:

Dillusion: n.: Suffering from the mistaken belief that kosher pickles can succeed at Olympic level dressage.

-- Websters New Abridged Dectionary

[Barn Dweller]

And I don't understand any of this. I enjoyed the photos of the horse.

[Ambrey]

He is beautiful. He is not a clown. He's not garish or amusingly clumsy. I don't see the analogy at all.

Look how graceful he is considering all that weight he has to throw around! I think it's amazing. And for all some say that's not dressage, how would he be moving if they DIDN'T use dressage principles?

[Donella]

LOL these draft horse posts are seriously getting hilarious!:lol:

I just assumed we were supposed to be impressed by this horse doing "dressage" because this is the dressage board. If it was just about a successful rescue, wouldn't it be posted on the off course?

[goeslikestink]

boy------ the horse has a great home is well fed and happy and what the owner does with him to show him off is her right as we all show off our horses in some way or form

hers is to show you whats shes done with him, and covers many training issues from dressage to vaulting to high school training like a spanish school would to do the trianing for the lippanzers -- circus act or not, being that i had a chance in a young life to see that kind of thing being tuaght theres not a lot of difference only its a draft horse

so what------- she having fun the horse enjoys its otherwsie he wouldnt do it and has the a lot of intellgence all shes done is use his itelligence to himself

and if it give what you can do with a drafty or what can happen when you rescue a horse from a dire stituation and how the horse can improve by others watching the video
or reading her posts whatever as she improved the horses situation each time

then its encoruagement as to what you might be able to achieve in the same situation
so good luck to her and her horse
like i said hes well cared for and in a home for the rest of his life and that my freinds is the most important thing which others have overlooked

[equusrocks]

I don't know why some people are giving themselves wedgies over this. :cool:

Great story.


:lol: That made me lol.

As said by others...

Who cares? It's a cute, well loved horse and they obviously have a good time. Whose place is it to judge the horses "dressage" potential?

There is nothing shameful in making the most of what you have. Thank god that woman didn't join CoTH.

[Kaeleer]

I'm thinking akin to these that I really like:

http://www.nigelround.co.uk/artistes/roly_poly.jpg

Oh dear, I must be unbelievably tacky because I thought that was hilarious.

I blame in on an upbringing of Only Fools and Horses, Black Adder and Not the Nine o'Clock News.

Methinks that there are many people on this board who are irony-deficient :)

[J Swan]

This lady appears to take really good care of her horse, loves him dearly, and seems to have an enviable rapport with her horse.

She doesn't seem to be making any claims that the horse is suited for GP - she's just sharing the horse's story. And she seems to be hoping that readers will enjoy it.

He's a cute horse who is much loved and the rider is training him in a perfectly suitable and proven way; hoping to bring out the best in the horse. Dressage benefits any horse - no matter what breed or size or discipline.

Now what the hell is wrong with that - and how on earth do some of you people manage to walk around with a stick shoved up your butt? It must make the sitting trot a real pain in the a**.

Just enjoy it for what it is - it's a nice story and both appear happy.

Would that all horses had such a loving owner.


Thomas1 - I got your humor in that link! But maybe because I love British humor.

[oldbag]

The horse looks lame to me. I would think lunging on a tight circle would be painful for him. However, most of you say he's happy and he's got a good home - so what do I know?

[goeslikestink]

Just enjoy it for what it is - it's a nice story and both appear happy.

Would that all horses had such a loving owner.


Thomas1 - I got your humor in that link! But maybe because I love British humor.[/QUOTE]
same as me

[Phyxius]

Just enjoy it for what it is - it's a nice story and both appear happy.

Would that all horses had such a loving owner.


Thomas1 - I got your humor in that link! But maybe because I love British humor.
same as me[/QUOTE]

Ditto that. :)

PS, how are you goeslikestink? I rarely post here, but I remember you! :D

[Moderator 1]

Please avoid the personal commentary. If you disagree with a statement or find a reference inappropriate, you're welcome to explain why, but the name calling is counterproductive.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[PaddyUK]

There are no "bunched panties" "wedgies" or sticks up bottoms here.

But in a Dressage Forum a title such as "Tarek the draft-dressage horse" is bound to attract dressage riders to view as a draft doing dressage, especially it is hot on the heels of another draft thread.

I agree with those who have said well done, in respect of the story of the horse, and the fact that he is in a life long home with a loving owner, but it is not dressage.

To those who say Dressage means training, yes it does, but not within the purists defintion. As nice as the lad is, there will never be any engagement, purely because of the way he is built.

Thomas - I get the link, cos I'm a brit and I also get your nicking of "Black Adders" explaination of irony! Have used it myself on this board!

Should we beat the "Scales of training" bods such as myself with a big stick - No. Should we denegate the lovers of Draft Horses with a similar big stick - No.

Dressage is many things to many people and long should it be so.

As long as we all have a similar aim.

A well trained horse, to whatever level and a pleasure to ride.

Surely that is the definition of dressage.

Paddy

[egontoast]

There are no "bunched panties" "wedgies" or sticks up bottoms here.


Are you sure?:lol:

[PaddyUK]

Are you sure?:lol:

Yep so far, but I'll let you know when my FITS arrive from VTO!

Paddy