Saddle fit question...

[acc]

I understand the reason for dry spots, but what needs to be done to eliminate them? The spots I am talking about are large ovals just below and slightly behind the withers. They are exactly the same on both side and there are no other dry spots or hair twists. Oh but the channel down the spine is dry. So I know these spots mean too much pressure (and in this case I assume it's the front of the bars), but exactly what part of the saddle fit causes a dry spot in this location? The spots are better if the saddle is not cinched really tightly if that help you any. The saddle is worn with a light woven (aztec style) underpad and some type of foam pad that's about an inch thick, not really sure about that pad. So... what would these dry spots say to you?

Photos:
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace%20Saddle/

Thanks!

ACC

[sublimequine]

Usually dry spots are where the saddle is too tight; the pressure is great enough in those spots that the skin cannot sweat (I think that's how it works, if I remember correctly!).

To me, I'd think this would mean your saddle is too narrow. Or it might be a wrong pad situation as well. It's kinda hard to say for me personally, still learning how to discern from good and bad fit on western saddles. Hopefully someone else can help ya out more.. :confused:

[BaileyTW]

I'm not too good at this, especially with western saddles, but it looks to me like the saddle could be pinching her and is most likely too narrow, though a too wide saddle can also cause pressure. It looks like the saddle is set a little forward on her shoulders too, I think. A problem I think I see is her back almost looks too short for the size saddle you are putting on her.

[ToiRider]

Hello,

I am not a saddle fit expert, but I was on the great saddle hunt for several years and researched dry spots a lot. I also consulted a saddle fitter. My gelding also had dry spots, first small quarter sized dry spots with swelling (first saddle - too narrow) and then large dry spots about the size of my hand with no swelling (second saddle - slightly too wide and other issues). I am now on my third saddle, and I have finally achieved perfect saddle fit (at least for today).

I agree with some points the other posters made. These are the things that I see going on from your pictures, which were extremely helpful.

1. First, the larger the dry spot, the better. This means that the extra pressure is being distributed over a larger area rather than a smaller area. While no dry spot is good (other than the channel over the spine), larger is better than smaller. Your dry spots are "larger".

2. I agree that the saddle is too far forward and this is part of the problem. However, the horse has a fairly short back, so a longer saddle may present a problem with loin rubbing. You still need a different, possibly longer saddle - see number 4. You would want to get a curved, rather than square, skirted saddle to help avoid a loin rubbing problem.

3. The saddle is probably too wide for this horse. I don't see that it is pinching the horse, but rather it looks to be slightly wide. This can be helped with extra padding (you can only fix fit for saddles that are too wide, not too narrow, by padding), although there are enough other things going on here that I am going to end up recommending a new/different saddle. Also, moving the saddle back will move the offending area to a wider part of the horse, which may solve your problem. However, see 4.

4. *****Probably most importantly, this saddle does not fit the rider. I am a heavyweight rider, so I researched this part carefully. The heavier the rider, the larger the seat that is needed. Larger seats have larger tree panels to help distribute the extra weight of a heavier rider. Therefore, if you are riding in seat that is too small, then the tree panels are also too small and the increased weight is distributed over a smaller area of the horses back, causing dry spots. You need a saddle with a larger seat and larger tree panels. *****

5. In the meantime, you may want to think about ditching the back cinch and instead rigging the saddle using a center fired position (run the latigo (cinch strap) from the front ring, through the cinch, up to the back ring, back through the cinch, and then then up to the front ring. This will help in two ways. It will help hold the saddle back off the withers (because you will have saddled the horse with the saddle back at least 2 to 3 inches back from its current position). The center fire position also helps get the cinch pressure off of the withers. I moved my saddle back and used the center fire position on the recommendation of a saddle fitter. At first it felt really strange, but I got used to it and it made a big difference with my horse. You will have to replace your latigos with at least 7 foot long latigos. I ordered some from my tack shop. Make sure to rig both sides the same way, otherwise you will end up with one dry spot, rather than two. If and when you get your new saddle, I recommend getting a saddle with a centerfire cinch position.

I am finally riding dry spot free, and my gelding has started taking his right lead again and has also started to gait freely (he is 1/2 Saddlebred, 1/2 Arabian). This happened AFTER we got the pressure issues resolved.

Good luck!!

[acc]

Thanks for your opinions!

I should have mentioned... that's not me riding. :lol: That's my husband. She needed some training today and thus he rode and he does not have a saddle of his own yet. The saddle is mine and fits me fine (if a touch big) and I weigh about 100lbs less. :lol:

Not sure how that changes matters... please let me know what you think...

ACC

[ToiRider]

Thanks for your opinions!

I should have mentioned... that's not me riding. :lol: That's my husband. She needed some training today and thus he rode and he does not have a saddle of his own yet. The saddle is mine and fits me fine (if a touch big) and I weigh about 100lbs less. :lol:

Not sure how that changes matters... please let me know what you think...

ACC


Well that solves item number 4 in my response! The rest of my responses still stand.

The saddle is probably too wide, although it is too far forward on the withers and needs to be back several inches. Try moving the saddle back as your first try. Once you have moved it back, you can tell if the saddle is level and in the right spot by putting a pencil across the seat and letting it roll. That should give you an indication if the saddle is high (too tight) or low (too wide) in the front or just right.

I would still try rigging the cinch differently as well, which will help hold the saddle back off of the withers. You may end up with loin rubs though when you move the saddle back (due to your horse's short back), at the back end of the saddle, and your horse may lose some hair and get sore over the kidneys as a result. I would watch for that.

If you still have dry spots, then the next step is to increase pad thickness. Think about wearing thicker socks when your shoes are too big. This may help fill things in. You may also need a custom saddle pad to help you there. I had a custom Skito pad made by Tom at Skito. I sent him pictures of my horse's back and some measurements, and he gave me a fabulous fitting pad in return. He knows all about shimming pads to solve different issues, so he would be a great person to consult with.

Are you having any behavior issues that you might be attributing to something other than poor saddle fit? This can range from difficulty saddling your horse (ears back, nipping, hard to catch in field), to behavior while riding (biting your foot, reluctance to extend gaits, general crankiness, ears back, bucking or rearing, cantering crooked) to one sidedness. My horse became very left sided and would not hold his right lead when forced to take it. He also lost his extended trot and extended canter.

Well, time for bed. Let me know if any of these things help!

[GallopingGrape]

BEAUTIFUL HORSE!! In picture number 25, it really looks like it is pinching - right where those dry spots were. I would DEFINITELY move that saddle back a few inches and try again, that could solve your problem. Agreeing with ToiRider, ultimately, you'll want a round skirt saddle so as to not rub her loin.
If your saddle is too wide, adding a thinker pad will 'temporarily' fix the problem, but ultimately, you'll want a saddle that fits. If it is two narrow, or the bars are the wrong angle for the horse - try this:

Do you have a cheap 1/2" pad that you don't mind tearing up and losing? Piece of felt 1/2" felt from a fabric store?
1. Bring that saddle back a few inches. It should sit just behind the shoulder blade (not on top of it, as shown in your pics)
2. Ride in your 1/2" thick pad until and work up a good sweat (not you, the horse!)
3. If there are dry spots, cut a hole out of the saddle pad, EXACTLY where the dry spots are. Do the same on the horses back tracing the dry spots with chalk.
4. Next day - position the saddle pad with the holes directly over the dry spots from yesterday (mark them if you have to).

If you ride again and there are no dry spots, viola, your saddle was too narrow. I wouldn't recommend it for very long, but you can ride in your new, ruined, felt pad like this until you get a saddle that fits.

Kim

[Mersy]

I agree that your saddle may be just a little wide. You can experement with padding to see if it improves.
Also it looks as though the tree is just to long for this horses short back. Moving it back my help a little, but I suspect the horses hip movement will just push it forward again.
Yes, shorter bars means less pounds per square inch, but if it is what is going to fit the horse better then that is what matters. Your horses back looks plenty strong enough to deal with this.

[acc]

Oh wow this is annoying. I can NOT understand why I get the feeling that half the people say it's too wide and the other half say it's too narrow. Which is it!? *whines* I'm not annoyed at you guys, I just want an answer.

As far as shorter bars... ummm I ride in a 16" seat, the bars can only be so short. I don't know what to do about this.

As far as the saddle being too far forward, the pommel is 2"-3" behind the back of her shoulders and we physically verified this. I can't possibly imagine how much further back we can move it. If any of you saying that are more used to english saddles, that could be the problem as thought it may *look* like it's "on her shoulder", I can assure you the pommel is not even close to being on her shoulder and it is normal for the front skirt to lay over the shoulder as long as the start of the bars are clear. Even if I were to move it further back, it's not just that her hip would push it forward, but the girth will pull it forward. I can't get a girth to stay far enough back on her, it always slides forward (thanks to her belly and ribs) and thus it's just going to pull the saddle forward too.

Thanks,

ACC

[GallopingGrape]

ACC, its difficult for any of us to accurately judge the fit of the saddle via pictures... we are only giving our opinion based on our own experience and photos. I own a western saddle shop and ride western, I can fit a western saddle, but pictures can only tell you so much. I can assume you are possitive that the bars of the tree are not interfering with her shoulder or shoulder movement, thank you for that info. Making changes, adjustments, trying new things (like the holes in an old saddle pad - we've done this dozens of times with GREAT success) will narrow down the incorrectness of this saddle fit. Perhaps you can ask someone who lives near you, and who is skilled in fitting saddles, to assist you with this fit.


Good luck to you

[GallopingGrape]

PS- A good indication that a saddle may be too wide is if the rear of the saddle is tipping up. Meaning the front bars are too wide and sitting too low on the horse. (your pictures kind of appear to show the saddle tilting foward)

An indication that it is too narrow is sometimes when the front of the saddle is higher than the rear. (The front gullet is too narrow, pinching the horse and not sitting far enough down on the horse.

Guessing by the pictures (and the majority opinion here today) you could say your saddle might be too wide....

Hope that helps

[GallopingGrape]

If you look at picture number 18, the dry spot is up high above the horses shoulder. If you match that picture up with an exact picture of the saddle on him, it appears that the pressure is coming directly from the pommel, or from where the pommel meets the bars. I'm reverting back to my suggestion to cut a hole - or if you can - shave out a slight hollow spot directly under this spot on both sides and see if you see a difference.. I bet you can. Jump on the internet and check out saddle pads with Pressure Relief System. Only Clinton Anderson makes them, I think... and what I'm telling you is the same principal.. only $300 less expensive...

[acc]

Funny... I was just sitting here thinking how much I wanted Clinton's pad. I'm just not sure I totally understand what you are explaining to make.

Can I try the pencil in the seat thing to see if it is really tipping forward or not? Does that do any good? I think part of it tipping forward (if it really is) is that she is presently downhill and the saddle is kinda long for her tiny, short back. But of course that is something that is temporary.

Yes we have made sure that her shoulder is completely clear, even in action.

ACC

[gabz]

Take a few photos of the horse, with no tack on her. Take a side view, each side, and then behind the horse, stand on a bale of hay and take a photo.

Then, put the saddle on the horse with NO PAD. Rock it gently to "seat it". Girth it snug, but not tight. lay your hand flat on her shoulder and slide your hand under the front of the saddle . Can you do that? If not, the saddle is too tight/narrow.

The saddle should rest on the muscles on either side of the spine. Sometimes the tree is too "flat" and doesn't rise up enough or the tree does not flare enough at the shoulders. There are many aspects to the width and fit of a saddle and tree.

When you have your photos of the horse with no saddle and then with THAT saddle on her with NO pad, and the photos of her dry spots. Email them to julie@west20.com (julie@west20.com)

She'll help you figure it out. It's what she does.
And, if you know the name / brand of your saddle, have that handy too.
Once you email the photos, call her: Telephone: (262) 642-4272

I agree that your husband will be more comfortable with a LONGER seat. It won't make the saddle any longer (not necessarily at least). Sometimes a flat seat is better for men than one that is tipped up in front / sloped seat. He has a long thigh and having a longer seat will let him place his feet under him better. It will place his weight back farther and off the shoulders too. : )

P.S. Look for a contour pad. They swoop UP in the front to ensure they do not press on the withers when the saddle is tightened. Makes a HUGE difference in your horse's comfort and can help in saddle fit too.

[ToiRider]

As far as shorter bars... ummm I ride in a 16" seat, the bars can only be so short. I don't know what to do about this.

An Arabian tree may be your answer for his short back. They are made for Arabians with wide barrels and short backs. They will usually have a shorter tree than a tree made for Quarter Horses. Of course, each manufacturer makes their Arab tree slightly differently. Some are wider than others, etc.

As far as the saddle being too far forward, the pommel is 2"-3" behind the back of her shoulders and we physically verified this. I can't possibly imagine how much further back we can move it. If any of you saying that are more used to english saddles, that could be the problem as thought it may *look* like it's "on her shoulder", I can assure you the pommel is not even close to being on her shoulder and it is normal for the front skirt to lay over the shoulder as long as the start of the bars are clear. Even if I were to move it further back, it's not just that her hip would push it forward, but the girth will pull it forward. I can't get a girth to stay far enough back on her, it always slides forward (thanks to her belly and ribs) and thus it's just going to pull the saddle forward too.

I ride in a Tucker Endurance saddle, which is a western style but doesn't have the extra skirting. As far as holding the girth back, that is why I recommended rigging the saddle differently. If you use both girth rings on your saddle and a longer latigo to rig it in the centerfire position, you can move your girth position back considerably, and the girth will stay in that position.

I think part of it tipping forward (if it really is) is that she is presently downhill and the saddle is kinda long for her tiny, short back. But of course that is something that is temporary.


I took another look at your pictures. One picture of her bare back and rump, it does appear that she is downhill, which can definitely be causing your pressure problem (assuming she was standing on level ground). The saddle would be tipped forward, putting pressure around the wither near the top, as your pressure spots appear. Your pressure spots are more forward than I have seen on a level horse. Why do you say this downhill condition is temporary? There are pads made specifically to deal with downhill horses, and that may very well be what you are needing. Skito has a shimming system to deal with this. I have had several skito pads, and I am a huge fan of Skito. In addition, Tom at Skito can look at your pictures, make recommendations and make a custom pad for you if he thinks that is what you need. He has really helped me deal with my geldings issues as he got thicker and changed shape as he aged.

Part of the reason why I say the saddle is too wide rather than too narrow is that a narrow saddle is going to ride on top of the horse and the areas that pinch would be smaller, I would think. That has been my experience. Think about a hat that is too small and opposed to too large, and how they would fit your head differently.

[acc]

I have lots of photos of her. Took several that day of her bare and with just the saddle (no pads). Do those not show the right things?

The reason I say her being downhill is temporary is because she is 3.

Busy at the moment, but will respond to more of this later. :-)

Thanks!

ACC

[gabz]

Sometimes the tree is too "flat" and doesn't rise up enough or the tree does not flare enough at the shoulders. There are many aspects to the width and fit of a saddle and tree.


I agree there are lots of photos, but only 2 of her in the saddle with no pads. I missed them the first time through.

Her back is like a "U"... she needs a saddle that has a tree that is that shape. the saddle is bridging. It can bridge whether it's too narrow, or too wide.

Try this: do not use the neoprene. Fold a woven wool pad in half and lay it over the purple pad you have on her. Put the fold to the front, and place it on the lowest part of her back. Then, place the saddle there. See if that folded pad is enough to bring up the front of the saddle.
If not, try something a little thicker.

You almost need to treat this as a sway-backed situation. The empty unpadded saddle photo #25 shows that it is tipped down in front. You need to pad to level the saddle.
Or contact a saddle fitter.

[Kellye]

Hello acc,
I looked at all of your pictures and something that no one else seemed to notice is that your saddle appears to be asymetrical...it's not the same on the left and right sides. Look down at the pommel when you're sitting in the seat, then look under the conchos at the fit of the leather against your horse's shoulder. It appears to me, that it is ALOT tighter on the right side than on the left. You could have a crooked tree, or it just could be that your horse is more developed on one side.

Also, the pics of her with no saddle show that she has a "curvy" back. It dips down in the middle. If the tree of your saddle is too straight, it could be bridging, which would cause those big dry spots. In other words, her back is curvy but the tree is straight and there is no pad that will fix that permanently. If I were you, I'd be out saddle shopping with the help of a qualified saddle fitter. They'll need to know which trees will fit a curvy back and have bars that don't dig in at the front and back. Your mare may be a bit hard to fit, but with the right tree she should be alot more comfortable. Plus, you won't have to use that rubber pad anymore...those things build up ALOT of heat. And remember, a pad will not fix poor saddle fit, or a crooked tree, or a poorly made saddle. YOu have not mentioned what brand your saddle is. I'd dare say it fits like a Buffalo saddle, which is a brand known to cause pain and fit horribly on every horse it sits on.

Have you considered a treeless saddle? Just a thought...they fit "curvy" backs really well, in general, and don't have rigid bars to dig in the loins and shoulders of a short-backed horse. Another option is an Arab saddle....I think someone else mentioned that too.

Good luck and happy shopping!

edited....looks like me and gabz were typing at the same time and have the same idea about the bridging.

[acc]

If the saddle is really bridging why don't we have dry spots at the back of the bars too? The only dry spots are at her withers.

It's a Tex Tan Hereford.

She's only 3 so a custom fit saddle is not a good idea right now... I'll look into the treeless. :)

ACC

[Arrow]

My vote is pressure, not bridging. I had a saddle that bridged Arrow badly, and the dry spots were in the middle of his back not up front under the conchas.

[GallopingGrape]

I agree with Arrow.. I dont see bridging on this saddle at all... But I did notice a bit asyemetrical issues as well. If I'm seeing the dry spots correctly... on her left side the dry spot seemed to be next to her wither, and on the right, it seemed to be a bit further back in the "pocket'. Is this correct or was it the pictures?

PS - Treeless are fantastic... Barefoots are comfortable and reasonable.

Kim

[acc]

She wasn't very sweaty that day. The day before when she got really wet the spots were entirely identical from what I could tell.

Btw, I tried two things. 1: Cinched up without a pad and ran my hand under the length of the bars. The bars are making contact with her the whole length and I didn't feel any area that seemed to have any more pressure than any other area. Not very scientific I know. 2: Cinched up and placed a pencil in the seat to see where the "flat part" was and it was exactly where I thought it should be. The third stitching from the back on the seat. Wouldn't this indicate it not being pulled down in front?

ACC

[gabz]

My vote is pressure, not bridging. I had a saddle that bridged Arrow badly, and the dry spots were in the middle of his back not up front under the conchas.

???? when a saddle is said to bridge ... it is resting on the horse at the front and the back. like a bridge over something. It causes PRESSURE where it rests.

When the horse is DRY, that means that something was firmly against the horse and did not allow the horse to sweat properly.
I don't know about your horse or saddle or why you think it was a bridging issue if the back was dry.

I'm not a saddle fitting expert, but I do help a lady do fitting clinics AND I am hired to work for 4 days a year selling and fitting saddles for that lady when she comes to Michigan.

[gabz]

The third stitching from the back on the seat. Wouldn't this indicate it not being pulled down in front?

ACC

I'm not sure what you mean by "third stitching from the back" ... ???

can you do that and stand on a bale of hay to take a photo and then a photo from the side showing the pencil?

Kellye said much the same as I said, that the horse has a dipped back and you should try to find a saddle that is more that shape.

A treeless saddle might be a good interim choice ... as the mare develops more muscling and drops her head a little more (she could be dipping her back to avoid saddle pain), you could then consider a more expensive brand.

good luck. I hope you find something that works. emailing a FEW photos, as I suggested to Julie could be very helpful.

[ToiRider]

I took yet another look at your pictures. There is something I have been hesitant to mention that may help you find a little more back and a little less butt on this horse - a diet. While not obese, your horse is not close to thin. Your saddle will fit differently if your horse dropped some weight, and you may have an easier time fitting the horse. However, this particular saddle would then almost definitely be too broad. The treeless idea is a good one, because it will fit no matter what shape the horse is and will therefore fit as the horse changes condition as it grows and gets fitter.