Qualifying Rule Question

[MareForceOne]

Hi!

Does anyone know the answer to this question about the qualifying rule???

Here is the situation: If you have been showing at 4th level this year and have the Silver Medal scores needed from 4th (multiple scores above 60% at all tests in the level), but will probably not get the Prix St. Georges scores towards the Silver Medal this season, (if you go at a leisurely pace/progression) what do you do?

Would you have to go back next year (Spring 2009) to showing 3rd and earn the right to show at 4th/PSG again, before you can move on to get your PSG scores for the Medal?

Do you bust your a** to try to earn PSG scores by the end of this November?

That would seem really stupid to me, to take a rider/horse who is going to show in regional championships at 4th level this year, and then make them go back to "qualify" to show at 4th/PSG.

Please tell me there is some kind of provision for riders who have earned thier Silver Medal scores at 4th and are just caught between the seasons and need the winter to move up to PSG for next year. :yes:

I mean, theoretically, it would not be a big deal to earn the scores at 3rd, and is totally do-able, but with showing and gas costs so high, I really don't have it in my budget to do however many recognized shows at 3rd and then also do the number of shows that I would like to at PSG, if all goes well and the Gods smile on my winter training. :winkgrin:

[claire]

Hi!
Do you bust your a** to try to earn PSG scores by the end of this November?

That would seem really stupid to me, to take a rider/horse who is going to show in regional championships at 4th level this year, and then make them go back to "qualify" to show at 4th/PSG.

Please tell me there is some kind of provision for riders who have earned thier Silver Medal scores at 4th and are just caught between the seasons and need the winter to move up to PSG for next year. :yes:

I mean, theoretically, it would not be a big deal to earn the scores at 3rd, and is totally do-able, but with showing and gas costs so high, I really don't have it in my budget to do however many recognized shows at 3rd and then also do the number of shows that I would like to at PSG

I think you are bringing up one of the "unintended consequences" of the Qualification Rule proposal. You might want to express your concerns to your GMO representative and/or email the USEF DC.

Rebecca/ShotenStar/pluvinel, correct me if I am wrong, but the 2009 date is the date the USEF will vote up (or down ;) ) the qualification proposal?

Not when the qualification rule will go into effect?

And there may also be changes to the qualification proposal before (or after) it is initiated.

From the Quailification Proposal thread:

The current timeline is:

15 June - input to the USEF survey closes
2-3 July - closed USEF Dressage Committee meeting to discuss the survey results and the current state of the proposed standard
1 Sep - deadline to submit the final text of the proposed change to the USEF
v 08 - USDF convention; rule will be discussed but there will be no formal, binding vote since this is a USEF rule change
Jan 09 - USEF convention and final vote on the rule

[MareForceOne]

OK, I was googling, or yahooing, as it were.....

Read on the PVDA site that the rule goes into effect December, 2009 for the start of the 2010 show season?

Is that still accurate? I was thinking that would be passed in December of 2009 and it went into effect January, 2009 for the 2009 season.

Maybe I don't have to have a heart attack after all. I am still against the proposal, anyway. Someone will get the shaft with my situation as described above, it will just be a year later.

BTW, I did compete and have shown up through all of the levels, at least one year (often times more! or again with a different horse!) mainly at each level from Intro. all the way up to 4th. However, when I started dumping massive funds into training when I got to 2nd and 3rd (new territory for me at the time), I severely cut back on my recognized shows. The budget only goes so far, you know? So, I did a lot of schooling shows at 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, with lots of local GMO championships and etc., but do not have enough (OMG is it really 20 points!?!?) at 2nd/3rd levels from recognized shows to "Qualify" to move up in recognized world. This shoots down the idea that there are all only "Level Jumpers" or "Abusive Riders" with $$$$ who are paying big cash to buy fancy horses and totttle around at levels where they don't belong. I'm sure it happens, but why should the honest folks pay the price for those who will just find another way around the system, somehow?

After more than 10 years and several horses (kept them all, just added to the herd :winkgrin:), of really trying to do it right, tons of instruction, working hard and waiting for the stars to allign, I am really on the brink of FEI. It stinks to think that because of some crazy beaurocratic rule that the whole plan can be de-railed.

I really think that this rule is unfair for this and other reasons. Not trying to start a trainwreck, but I think that this system is not the way to improve our sport.

If the proponents of this rule really want to improve the dressage skills of the "unwashed masses" and "save the horses" from "abusive riding".....maybe they should be focusing to make top-quality instruction more readily available.

Maybe they should work to require instructor qualifications to be much more stringent. Like, we all know the "trainers" who are the most God-awful, unproven hacks out there with throngs of followers copying thier "style". Maybe we should turn up the pressure to be sure that instructors/trainers are qualified.

Maybe we should focus on getting more high-quality clinics more readily availbale at low-cost prices so that more and more people can participate and be exposed to better instruction.

Maybe when you join USDF, you should be able to participate in some type of "online" dressage education courses for free. This would help people to maybe watch correct videos and learn correct theory and practice. Or give reading assignments and have a forum for discussion and questions.

Maybe the USDF should have a bulletin board, like COTH or something, where riders could submit photos and videos and get feedback from some very qualified instructors and judges. I would rather dedicate the funds to an educational program like this to pay the trainers for their time than on the secretarial nightmare that will come from this proposal.

OK! Sorry. I got a little bit carried away there. :)

[tartanfarm]

Has anyone heard anything about the early July meeting? I'd love to know what the survey results showed, even with the extremely slanted questions.

[yaya]

According to the latest proposal (the one from April of this year), if it is voted in during the 2009 Annual Meeting, you then have until November 30, 2010 to accumulate the points required for grandfathering in.

The Performance Standards system would then kick in on December 1, 2010.

You only need 10 points at Third Level to move up to Fourth, then you need 8 points from Prix St. Georges level to move up to Intermediare 1.

Points start at 58%.
58-59.99% One point
60-62.99% Two points
63-64.99% Three points
65% and above Four points

You may have more points than you think.

If not, you have awhile to try to get the needed scores.

[pluvinel]

The worry may be premature. To date there is NO qualifying rule.

The original qualifying rule was tabled at the Jan08 USEF meeting.

A new proposed qualifying rule criteria was drafted after considerable angst was communicated to the dressage committe about the first qualifying rule proposal.

The proposal is just that, a proposal. Nothing has been "officially" presented under USEF rules as an official proposed qualifying rule to be presented for vote at the Jan09 USEF meeting.

The USEF posted a survey to get feedback regarding the proposed qualifying rule. Survey closed June 15.

The USEF Dressage Committee met July 1-2, 2008, to discuss the proposed qualifying rule. To date there has been no communication as to the outcome of that meeting.

Communicate your concerns to your GMO and PM representatives....and it probably wont hurt to cc the dressage liason at USEF.

[Mary in Area 1]

Hey Mare,

You and I share the same exact problem! I even WON the 4th Level Championship in Region 8 in 2004, but then my horse was kicked and fractured his sesamoid. We've been rehabbing since then, but I haven't shown him. I did a whole season of the awful old 4th level test 3 in order to feel as though I'd EARNED the right to go PSG with him. Now, if he stays sound, and I can't get him in the ring quickly enough, I'll have to go back to third!

Needless to say, this is really ridiculous. If my schoolmaster is ready to go PSG, but I only have the scores at 4th, then I basically can never show him again. I might as well sell the stoopit shadbelly!

[JRG]

Just a note, even if the proposal does pass you have 2009 to get your PSG scores. Technically you only have till I believe Sept. 05/08 to submit scores to recieve your Bronze/Silver/Gold to be awarded this year at the annual meeting.

I don't know if you can submit scores after the due date for it still to count for 2008 and just not be awarded at the meeting? Someone else may be able to answer that.

You are not alone in your angst. I am specifically going after my bronze this year so it is on the books to be grandfathered just in case this thing passes. In other threads there are some less then honourable things that are being done for the same reason. To get scores on the books.

[yaya]

Just a note, even if the proposal does pass you have 2009 to get your PSG scores. Technically you only have till I believe Sept. 05/08 to submit scores to recieve your Bronze/Silver/Gold to be awarded this year at the annual meeting.

I don't know if you can submit scores after the due date for it still to count for 2008 and just not be awarded at the meeting? Someone else may be able to answer that.



You also have the first 11 months of 2010 to earn the scores.

If this passes in January of 2009, then it won't go into effect until the USEF 2011 show year (which starts on December 1 2010). This is a USEF proposal, so it goes by the USEF show year, not the USDF show year. Any scores earned up until November 30, 2010 will count towards grandfathering.

So even if you earn your final medal score on 11/30/10, it will still count. The medal doesn't have to be in your hands. And I believe you can get the medal anytime during the year, as soon as you submit your scores. The September date is the end of the USDF show year, so I don't think any scores earned after that date can still count towards that year. (USDF uses a different show year than USEF does, mostly so it can prepare results for the awards banquet at the Annual Meeting in December.)

[HoochieMama]

I'm not sure, but I don't think you'd have to go back to third if you have your bronze medal. You'd justr have to get your PSG scores to move up to I1.

[MareForceOne]

Hey Mare,

You and I share the same exact problem! I even WON the 4th Level Championship in Region 8 in 2004, but then my horse was kicked and fractured his sesamoid. We've been rehabbing since then, but I haven't shown him. I did a whole season of the awful old 4th level test 3 in order to feel as though I'd EARNED the right to go PSG with him. Now, if he stays sound, and I can't get him in the ring quickly enough, I'll have to go back to third!

Needless to say, this is really ridiculous. If my schoolmaster is ready to go PSG, but I only have the scores at 4th, then I basically can never show him again. I might as well sell the stoopit shadbelly!

Agreed! I hope that your horse is doing better soon!

[MareForceOne]

I'm not sure, but I don't think you'd have to go back to third if you have your bronze medal. You'd justr have to get your PSG scores to move up to I1.

I think that there were two versions of the proposal. I can't find a link to the newer one, even though I searched the USDF and USEF sites. Anyone have the most recent link?

[BaroquePony]

First, I am not in favor of a Qualifications Proposal in the US, at this time or in the near future.

Second, I thought MareForceOne's ideas were excellent.

[JRG]

Here is a link to what I believe is the latest version.

http://www.neda.org/SpecialEvents.html

[pluvinel]

Here is a link to what I believe is the latest version.

http://www.neda.org/SpecialEvents.html

Please note that NEDA is not an official web site for the USEF .... the proposed rule is a USEF Rule...go to the USEF web site for info.

The information posted on the NEDA web site is out of date as it says revision August 07. That is the rule that was voted to be postponed.

THe USEF Dressage Committee met July 1-2, 2008, to discuss and re-draft a new qualifying criteria. There has not been any communication from the DC as to what that new rule might be.

[yaya]

Interestingly, when the USEF closed the survey, they also removed the Revised Proposal from the website. (I printed it out, luckily)

[JRG]

Yaya, I also put it on my computer too. I too found it intersting that they removed the Proposal. The link posted is not USEF/USDF that is true, but it was the only one I found online that had the differences between the two that seemed to be the latest "version" of what was proposed.

[SGray]

........................If the proponents of this rule really want to improve the dressage skills of the "unwashed masses" and "save the horses" from "abusive riding".....maybe they should be focusing to make top-quality instruction more readily available.

Maybe they should work to require instructor qualifications to be much more stringent. Like, we all know the "trainers" who are the most God-awful, unproven hacks out there with throngs of followers copying thier "style". Maybe we should turn up the pressure to be sure that instructors/trainers are qualified.

Maybe we should focus on getting more high-quality clinics more readily availbale at low-cost prices so that more and more people can participate and be exposed to better instruction.

Maybe when you join USDF, you should be able to participate in some type of "online" dressage education courses for free. This would help people to maybe watch correct videos and learn correct theory and practice. Or give reading assignments and have a forum for discussion and questions.

Maybe the USDF should have a bulletin board, like COTH or something, where riders could submit photos and videos and get feedback from some very qualified instructors and judges. I would rather dedicate the funds to an educational program like this to pay the trainers for their time than on the secretarial nightmare that will come from this proposal.

OK! Sorry. I got a little bit carried away there. :)

don't be sorry - good suggestions there MareForceOne!!

[SGray]

......Maybe I don't have to have a heart attack after all. I am still against the proposal, anyway. Someone will get the shaft with my situation as described above, it will just be a year later.

BTW, I did compete and have shown up through all of the levels, at least one year (often times more! or again with a different horse!) mainly at each level from Intro. all the way up to 4th. However, when I started dumping massive funds into training when I got to 2nd and 3rd (new territory for me at the time), I severely cut back on my recognized shows. The budget only goes so far, you know? So, I did a lot of schooling shows at 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, with lots of local GMO championships and etc., but do not have enough (OMG is it really 20 points!?!?) at 2nd/3rd levels from recognized shows to "Qualify" to move up in recognized world. This shoots down the idea that there are all only "Level Jumpers" or "Abusive Riders" with $$$$ who are paying big cash to buy fancy horses and totttle around at levels where they don't belong. I'm sure it happens, but why should the honest folks pay the price for those who will just find another way around the system, somehow?

After more than 10 years and several horses (kept them all, just added to the herd :winkgrin:), of really trying to do it right, tons of instruction, working hard and waiting for the stars to allign, I am really on the brink of FEI. It stinks to think that because of some crazy beaurocratic rule that the whole plan can be de-railed.

I really think that this rule is unfair for this and other reasons. Not trying to start a trainwreck, but I think that this system is not the way to improve our sport......

....OK! Sorry. I got a little bit carried away there. :)

agreed - though you will be okay - others in a similar position will get caught up in the quagmire

[pluvinel]

Yaya, I also put it on my computer too. I too found it intersting that they removed the Proposal. The link posted is not USEF/USDF that is true, but it was the only one I found online that had the differences between the two that seemed to be the latest "version" of what was proposed.

Why don't you post the proposal copied off the USEF web site? Might make for interesting reading.

The NEDA version still has the requirement that one must be a PM member, which was deleted in the subsequent version. So the NEDA info is definitely out of date.

[JRG]

http://www.usef.org/documents/disciplines/dressage/PerformanceStandards.pdf

For those that need the actual from USEF, I have managed to find it.

[BaroquePony]

Thank you. Much appreciated.