Oldenburgs, Trakehners, TBs, and Saddlebreds (long)

[Theworldover]

I am trying to compare four horse breeds (hoping I will own one of them soon once I reconcile to the fact that their upkeep costs so much). My discipline is eventing, so I presume that the following breeds are geared towards that area. I ruled out Dutch, Hanoverian, German, etc Warmbloods as they are priced very high (or should I re-think that?). I also left out Fresians because they are not commonly known as jumpers but I've ridden one in the past and he was fantastic.

I know every horse’s personality is individual but I am looking for some common traits, differences, similarities, and “pros and cons” (for lack of a better term). Can you add what your personal experience and knowledge has been with these four breeds?

OLDENBURGS
Obedient and hard working. Although TBs have been bred in this line to add a “lighter” breed to them, the predominant cross breed of the "O" is the draft horse so their temperament is mild. They excel in: Driving, eventing, show-jumping.

TRAKEHNERS
They are praised for their great temperament and athletisism. They also have TB blood in them but their personality is more “even” than that of a hotblood. They excel in eventing, show-jumping.

SADDLEBREDS
I have very little knowledge them. I have read bits and pieces about it on this board and other sites but for some reason I don’t have a good understanding of this breed. Feel free to add your input!

THOROUGHBREDS
The “king” of horses as many have dubbed this breed. A breed so amazing that has given its genes to so many other breeds for “improvement”. Very hard working, athletic, superior stamina. They excel in pretty much everything, except driving. Being a hotblood though, they can be more hot-headed and more of an advanced rider’s horse than many other breeds.

:):):)
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[bornfreenowexpensive]

personal experience....ignore the breed and base your judgement on the individual horse.

My fanciest horse is a Dutch/TB cross but I love the TBs and they suit me and my riding the best. In my life, I've had many crosses, TBs and known lots of other breeds. What is good for one person may not be for another.....You need to know your riding level, your personality, and what your goals are....then find a partner who gets along with you, you are comfortable with and will help you achieve your goals. And that is going to have very little to with its breed but the individual....and you want to keep your options as open as possible to find that partner.

[Dr. Doolittle]

Agree completely with bornfree--and to add, Oldenburg is a "breed registry", so contains many different warmblood breeds (though there are indeed "Oldenburgs", it's almost as common or more common to find a horse who is "branded Oldenburg"--but who is actually another breed or a combination of breeds...Check or post on the Sport Horse Forum; LOTS of good info there on this sort of thing!)

Trakehners are the "purest" of the warmblood breeds, since they have a closed registery, and only allow TBs, Arabs, or Traks to join the registery and be "branded" Trakehners. (And they have to be approved :))


Bottom line: you don't ride the brand or the tattoo or the papers; you ride the individual horse, and the nice thing about eventing is that there IS no "one ideal breed" that automatically and consistently excels at it. (Though the TB purists might take issue with that statement...:winkgrin: And when it comes to the upper levels, they would be right!)

[cloudyandcallie]

personal experience....ignore the breed and base your judgement on the individual horse.

My fanciest horse is a Dutch/TB cross but I love the TBs and they suit me and my riding the best. In my life, I've had many crosses, TBs and known lots of other breeds. What is good for one person may not be for another.....You need to know your riding level, your personality, and what your goals are....then find a partner who gets along with you, you are comfortable with and will help you achieve your goals. And that is going to have very little to with its breed but the individual....and you want to keep your options as open as possible to find that partner.

ditto. I had the hot ottb, loved her, we had the same temperment and personality.
my WB is a Hessen, and he is 47% TB, so has some spirit, and he's 10% Arab.
love both.

[lecoeurtriste]

I completely agree with the previous poster that it's more important to consider the horse itself versus the breed as a whole--there are some fabulous grade and out-of-the-ordinary-cross horses out there that will make excellent lifetime partners. For example, I have a 5yo percheron/spotted saddlebred cross who is lovingly referred to as a "Wisconsin Warmblood" since he came off an Amish farm in the great white north (brrr!!). He is currently eventing at training level and shows true potential for traditional dressage as well--he also did well at a short endurance event last month (5th out of 20 on a 40+ mile NATRC course in the NC mountains).

Many saddlebreds are great jumpers and have excellent stamina---HOWEVER, be wary of possible "extra" gaits and/or 4-beat canters (simply from a classic dressage standpoint). My guy is 5-gaited, but luckily was unbroke when I got him last April as an almost 4yo...so I was able to discourage the bonus paces under saddle (he still loves to rack around the paddock with his tail flagged and park out for good measure)! I'll admit that I'm also a sucker for draft crosses in general for their even temperament and good sense, but the 50/50 crosses aren't always the lightest on their feet. LOL!! :-)

Good luck in your search!!

[Dr. Doolittle]

Re: Saddlebreds--one of the best jumpers I ever owned (when I was a teenager) was a Saddlebred/TB cross, he was a mile long, but could jump the moon--and easily! I got my Pony Club B rating on him...

(There is another COTH poster who owns and events a Saddlebred cross; I rode in a Lucinda Green clinic with her this past spring, and we were all *most* impressed with her lovely boy :) Perhaps she will weigh in here too ;))

[Theworldover]

Thanks very much everyone! You've given me great info to think about. I sure hope getting my first horse will happen sooner than later. Gosh, i am approaching 40 and not getting any younger, lol! :eek: I do know however that the more riding experience I get under my belt, the more choices I have selecting the perfect match for me. Thanks again! :):)

[Foxtrot's]

Bill Steinkraus (sp?), before the age of warmbloods, said that a SBxTB made the best jumpers.

[Theworldover]

I'll google him up. :)

[eventer_mi]

Dr. Doolittle had it right - Oldenburg isn't exactly a breed. I have a young gelding who's Trak through and through- daddy is Oskar II and momma is a purebred Trak (Maskottchen). Oliver (or Olezka, as he's registered) is "branded" Oldenburg (they no long brand, but microchip). Why? Because his breeder got his mother Oldenburg approved instead. If anybody asks me what Oliver is, though (and plenty do, as he's very typey and looks to have a good percentage of TB blood), I say that he's Trakehner.

Temperment-wise, he's very level-headed, and seems to take things quietly. He grew up on his little SC farm, on 200 acres of land with not a sould in sight, and he's only been off the property four times - the second time when I brought him home. He's a bit spooky, but I think that's because he hasn't seen a whole lot - he's getting much braver every day. I swear, he came out of the womb walking on his hind legs - he's so freakin' uphill and has an amazing canter.

I've had TBs, and some of them are incredibly brave, and others are scared of their own shadows, but they're very affordable. So are Saddlebreds - they can be hot, but I think as long as they haven't been through a lot of Saddleseat training, they should be fairly straight-forward to train.

If budget is an issue, I'd go with a TB any day. I haven't seen too many Traks and Oldenburgs that are any cheaper than Dutch WBs or Hannoverians.

[Theworldover]

If budget is an issue, I'd go with a TB any day. I haven't seen too many Traks and Oldenburgs that are any cheaper than Dutch WBs or Hannoverians.


Really? I thought TBs cost somewhere near the warmbloods. (It depends on their training level of course). Aaahhh....so many choices! :winkgrin:

[yellowbritches]

I will preface this first bit with I AM EXTREMELY BIASED. ONE OF MY FAVORITES IS AN OLDENBURG. But the Os I've known have been for more TB like in temperament and athletic ability than most other WBs I've known. As others have said, they aren't really a breed, so the ones I've known could just be that much more lightly bred.

I am a HUGE, HUGE fan of TBs and really would die a happy, happy woman if I never rode anything but. They are generally athletic and smart and generally come with great work ethics. And I HATE that they are often considered "hot", temperamental, or tough rides. They can be, but so can just about anything. And, in fact, the two quietest horses in our barn are redblooded TBs. One off the track, one unraced. They are borderline "husband horse" quiet. :yes: And the OTTB is FOUR. The other full or mostly TBs are for the most part sensible and easy to deal with around the barn, but may or may not have quirks under tack that make them a bit tougher. But I don't consider that a TB thing, just that horse's thing. I love me a good TB and would have a barn full of them any day!

I have never dealt much with saddlebreds in any jumping discipline, but I spent a lot of time with a small group of them for awhile. They seem, in personality, very much like TBs or Arabs. Bright, hard working, and eager to please. The couple that DID jump were good at it and seemed to enjoy it.

But, like others have said, ride the horse not the breed or the brand. My personal horses are an appy (now retired...about to leave for his retirement home :cry:) and a mutt referred to as a "Canadian Sport Horse." The appy was hard working and eager, but cheeky. The other guy is a handful, but when he has his game face on, he is a blast to ride. Knowing what I know now, I probably would have picked either all over again for their brains and athletic ability. I could care less about their breeding (though my appy is a cutie with all his spots!).

Good luck in your horse search!

PS- Also look into Connemaras and Conn crosses. Next to a TB, that is my next favorite ride, and actually what I think my "Canadian" horse might be...or at least part Conn. Wicked, pony smart, that one is. :lol:

[ThirdCharm]

If you are looking at green horses, TBs will be cheaper than warmbloods, generally speaking. Once they have training, particularly in eventing where people are not so worried about papers, the prices even out somewhat. Dutch and Hanoverian warmbloods are no more expensive, in general, than Oldenburgs or Trakehners. For one thing there is a ton of interbreeding between the registries, so you might get an Oldenburg whose parents are mostly Hanoverian.... (or, like my horse, a Hanoverian who is mostly Thoroughbred!) You might also check out Irish Sport Horses, very popular in eventing. Note that Irish Draughts (the progenitor of the ISH) is NOT a draft breed even if it is pronounced the same.

Saddlebreds can excel as jumpers, dressage, and event horses, but they are primarily bred with other disciplines in mind (saddleseat, driving) so they are not a 'traditional' eventing breed, and resale might be a problem if that ever became necessary.

You will not find any traditional warmblood registry which accepts any kind of Draft cross, certainly not Oldenburgs. American Warmblood Society is the only one I can think of that does, and it is a fairly new registry which is still in the process of establishing itself. One of my students has a horse who is 1/4 TB, 1/4 Trakehner, and 1/2 QH (with maybe a dash of pony), and he is registered American Warmblood.

Overall, breed doesn't matter, the individual horse is what is important. I've got students who ride Saddlebreds, TBs, Hanoverians, Irish Sporthorses, and I've ridden Hanoverians and Trakehners (particularly, for some reason, black Trakehner mares) that I wouldn't take cross-country if you bet me a million bucks. *shrug*

Jennifer

[yellowbritches]

You might also check out Irish Sport Horses, very popular in eventing. Note that Irish Draughts (the progenitor of the ISH) is NOT a draft breed even if it is pronounced the same.
Thank you. A) For mentioning the ISH (which, I also love...basically, I'd have a barn full of TBs, ISHs, and Connies! :lol:) and B) Explaining how Irish Draughts are NOT draft horses. :yes:

[Lose That]

Yeah like others have said, I wouldn't worry so much about the breed (read, at all) if the horse is appropriate for you! Your trainer will (I'm sure) help you find horses to look at that are at the right level of training/competition for you and if you get along with the horse the breed won't matter!

But personally I like TBs a lot! Also Irish Sport Horses and Dutch/TB crosses! So actually, like I said above, really depends on the horse! Good luck I'm sure you'll find something awesome for your first horse and be sure to post pics when you do!

[myboyludy]

Im totally in love with my Oldenburg and would own another in a minute! Very willing and quite fancy! Brave as all get out too and really sesitive. He is mostly TB with Han and HOL in there too but I love him!

[Theworldover]

Great info!! Thank you so much! That's why I love this board more than any other :yes:. Usually you see other forums where a poster asks questions and they get hammered with flaming answers and negativity. :no:

One more question: does it matter having a horse that is registered? If I find "the great find" that is not registered, does it make a difference?

[yellowbritches]

I could care LESS about papers. It is fun and interesting to know where your horse came from in terms of bloodlines and to see what siblings are doing, but, really, it matters not. I like gushing about our Oldenburg's breeding (he's by Ideal- www.ultimatepiaffe.com), and I like knowing that our 4 yr. old OTTB has a lot of European blood. But I would love both still as much if I knew nothing about their family and bloodlines. I love my Paco dearly, and I know zip about him, not even what breed(s) he is, other than his brief history in VA.

Speaking of which, the boss chatted with his former trainer today, pre-Foxcroft, and found out a little more about him. All good stuff, and she confirms some of things we think about him. :yes:

[Dr. Doolittle]

Great info!! Thank you so much! That's why I love this board more than any other :yes:. Usually you see other forums where a poster asks questions and they get hammered with flaming answers and negativity. :no:

One more question: does it matter having a horse that is registered? If I find "the great find" that is not registered, does it make a difference?

You're welcome (at least for my input :)), and as far as your other question, a great find is just that--it really doesn't matter what breed it is if it gets the job done, and makes you happy. Registered horses are generally only *more* valuable when A) you are reselling them, or B) you're planning to breed them or sell them as a breeding animal (which in the case of a gelding, is sort of beside the point :p) That said, many people ARE interested in bloodlines, so knowing who your horse is related to can help you in a variety of ways ;)

[LisaB]

lecoeurtriste (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=96676),
Wisconsion Warmblood! Love it! A friend actually had another good one. Pennsylvania Dutch Warmblood. Which is what we call Winston.
I evented a saddlebred. She had a heart of gold.
I would definitely never ever look at specifically for a breed.
Look for the brain, first and foremost. They have to be smart and willing. You can have the most gorgeous horse in the world but ain't worth a crap if it's spooking all over the place.
I looked at ISH's, warmbloods, connemara's, tb's, etc. And wound up with an ex-Amish. We think mostly standardbred and percheron (where that damned spook comes from).
Look at everything!

[Rescue_Rider9]

QUARTER HORSE! LOL Well I love all of mine. They come in all shapes and sizes and are usually level headed and CHEAP! How high are you wanting to go in eventing? Any horse could do a lovely job to a certian level. I rode a 15 hand QH who was at prelim. (I didnt ride him there though, but I saw him and he was dream. 1st places all over). Just look at all horses. Any horse could take you to the low levels. I love my Saddlebred, but for jumping IDK? My Saddlebred was a saddleseat horse though. I tried jumping her once and she tackled it! She awesome though and is still going strong at 20. My 18 yr old QH had to be retired at 17. Not sure how common that is.

[Long Shadow Farm]

I, too, loff my QH gelding and I am showing him at Training with the pipe dream of moving up to Prelim one of these days. He is super steady and fun to ride.

I have rode tons of OTTB and had great fun with them. Some hot, some calmer than all get out. Right now I am riding a 4yo Oldenburg stallion for a friend and I can say that I am very impressed with his gaits and how easy and natural it is for him to do the dressage. Plus he is very quick to learn over fences and I think he has a great future in the eventing.

So I vote for finding the horse that you enjoy to ride and not worry about breeds, etc.

Bobbi

[Theworldover]

I guess the one thing that I do have to consider though is the physical limitations that come with certain breeds. Meaning that since I want to concentrate on jumping, I don't see buying a Fresian for example, or a draft horse. Not that drafts don't jump, but I don't think they would do as well as a lighter breed would.

Knowing me, I would take ALL horses home with me :D coz I love them all. I do love drafts too for all the positives they have but it would make sense to concentrate on a lighter breed. :)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Knowing me, I would take ALL horses home with me :D coz I love them all. I do love drafts too for all the positives they have but it would make sense to concentrate on a lighter breed. :)


I've know a couple draft crosses that have done really well (as in competing at Advanced). One was 1/2 perch. competing at Prelim but I do think that is unusual. A lot of the 1/4 drafts are light enough. I had a jumper that was 1/4 clyde that was incredible. But in the eventing world, I've seen more successful Perch crosses. There are a couple of Cleveland bays too that I've seen....and while unusual, they were pretty cool.

Again, it is all about the individual. The issue with crosses is what traits of the cross come to the surface. I've seen 1/2 draft crosses that look very TBish and 1/4 crosses that look very drafty. My Dutch/TB for example looks (and acts) more TBish....so he is definately light enough...but other WB/TB crosses may not be. And lastly...what level are you hoping to compete at? In my case, I'm looking at horses that will hopefull do a CCI** or higher (higher, I will just be the owner;))....but if you are looking novice and training or even Prelim....that opens up the doors quite a bit for a lot of different types.

As a first horse....I would be looking for a horse that has more skills than you...but not too much more. A rider going novice doesn't need a horse with Advanced potential. They need a horse that can show them the ropes at novice and safely move them up to training.

[Bogie]

My first horse was a grade horse -- probably mostly QH. He was a great teacher and a lot of fun to ride. He topped out around 3' at age 17 and I retired him to a home where he was trail ridden.

Next, I bought a Trakehner, which I still own. I wasn't looking for a particular breed, rather a horse that had the temperament and movement that I wanted. My Trak. is very brave, calm, but stubborn. He's a great jumper and wonderful cross country. He is built like a tank. He has some real issues with collection, so was never going to make a dressage horse. I now fox hunt him -- a job that he loves.

During this time I've also owned three OTTBs. They have all been fun horses in their ways, but none with the unflappability of my Trakehner. Of course, I also got mine right off the track as training prospects, so they did not have the mileage.

I'd look for a horse that can help you learn the ropes and not worry about the breed. It's unlikely that a first horse is going to move up all the levels with you, but it's great to have a "schoolmaster" that can give you the confidence to go on.

Unless you plan to breed a mare, it makes no difference at all whether a horse is registered or whether it is a grade horse or a specific breed. You just need to find a horse that you like to ride, which can do the job you need right now, and which you can enjoy.

[Theworldover]

And lastly...what level are you hoping to compete at? In my case, I'm looking at horses that will hopefull do a CCI** or higher (higher, I will just be the owner;))....but if you are looking novice and training or even Prelim....that opens up the doors quite a bit for a lot of different types.


For eventing, I am looking up to Novice. But in a perfect world, I would like the same horse to be good in trails too. ;)


I may sound like a broken record but thanks to everyone for taking your time with my totally "beginner" questions! This forum consists of great people who are willing to help out greenies like me!!

[ThirdCharm]

If you are just looking for Novice and some trail riding, I would strongly recommend a QH--just steer away from Halter bloodlines, with the downhill build and teeny feet. Look for a QH (with some TB in it, perhaps an Appendix even) that has a reasonably level build (uphill is possible, but not as likely) and nice movement. You can win at Novice on a nice moving QH, and they can be quite cheap. They tend to be sensible and brave and decent jumpers.

Jennifer

[Rescue_Rider9]

if your just doing Novice go QH. Appendix if you can find the right one because they are great. QH's love trails and the show ring so you have the best of both worlds!

[scubed]

It depends on your personality and riding style and for the lower levels, don't forget Morgans and Morgan crosses, some people have mentioned Appendix QH, also all kinds of other crosses. Off the track TBs and homebred TBs can be quite different, and while the more closely held warmblood breeds have traits in common, the actual horses within those breeds are very different from each other. The first horse I evented (through training level) was some sort of mutt that we though was Quarter Horse, Morgan, Arab, maybe a dollop of TB. He was phenomenal. Have ridden several TBs, a few TB/Trakehner crosses (very different from each other), a Morgan, and the current muttly pony Holsteiner/TB/Appy. Go for the horse that has the right match of experience and personality for your needs, plans, riding skills and set-up. IMHO don't limit yourself to certain breeds or you could miss out on a horse perfect for you.

[Martina]

There is a relatively new breed out there called Georgian Grande. It has to be at least 25% Saddlebred crossed with a small list of drafts, the best being the Friesian. They are bred for dressage and jumping and are supposed to be great CT horses. Many of these people are eventing them. I would guess at the low to mid levels. The horses have beautiful movement, great minds, bone and feet. They have a registry, I think the website is www.georgiangrande.com.

[Theworldover]

An Appendix QH sounds a great idea for a first horse! It has so many ideal traits that will benefit me in eventing! Oh and I forgot to say I am 5.7" 150 lbs so I would be looking for a horse 16hh or over. I prefer a bigger built than borderline pony build and I noticed appendix QHs do grow up to 16hh and over at times.

[scubed]

Also, consider lighter draft crosses, say 3/4 TB and 1/4 draft or 1/2 TB, 1/4/ Quarter Horse, Paint, etc and 1/4 draft (Clyde, Shire or Percheron). I've got friends who event some of these and have also seen them out and about at a lot of lower level events (and some upper level as well) and they are steady, often nice movers and good jumpers, with a great brain and sturdy build and feet

[ThirdCharm]

You can easily get a 16+hand Appendix QH. Heck, some of them are 99% TB with QH papers, so they come in the same sizes/shapes/colors as TBs as it were. :-)

Jennifer

[Hey Mickey]

I just wanted to say GOOD LUCK!! everyone on here (in general) are very nice and helpful.

Also, don't be afraid of uncommon crosses... I have a filly that is 1 month old (tomorrow) that is 1/2 TB, 1/4 arab and 1/4 saddlebred who is getting fancier and bigger everyday! people look at me like I'm crazy when I say the combination. haha, but she is going to be quite the cool horse.

And, I just wanted to add, that I've seen some nice appendix QH.
And don't be afraid of a smaller sized horse, 15-15'3 if its bigger bodied.

[cabopony]

Remember when looking at the WB's these days that just because a horse is listed as a certain breed doesn't mean that he isnt several other WB breeds mixed together. My guy is a Dutch/Trak cross with no TB blood. His mom evented and dad's lines are showjumping. I think its a good mix, he has wonderful dressage movement, and the athleticism to jump. I also think its because he has a short compact body and long legs.

[Bobthehorse]

Keep in mind, some of the best eventers of all time were crossbreeds!!

For lower levels, the mind and the connection are the most important. Breed really doesnt matter under Prelim. For the higher levels, its more complicated, and simply as far as breeds go, most UL horses have significant TB blood, but other than that there are traces of many, many breeds among the top event horses in the world. Eventing is the sport of hybrids, and a horse with the mind, body and soul for the sport is highly sought after, regardless of breed.