Trailering HELP Please

[Eventer Heart]

:confused:I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this or not so please move if needed.

Let me 1st say, I'm not new to horses, I've had lots of them over the last 30 years and have heard of other people having this problem but have never had it myself.

I've recently (3 weeks ago) purchased an 8yr training level eventing mare who I intend to show and haul for lessons and trail riding. She is great in every way except I can't get her to back out of the trailer. I have a fairly new large (WB size) open 2 horse straight load with a ramp. She walks in fine but will not get out. I've been trying to practice (I would like to be able to take her for some lessons without a fuss) and she will go in perfectly fine but will not back up. Her previous owner had a large slant load and allowed her to turn around and walk out. I'm at the end of my rope. I've tried being patient (2 hours of standing and waiting for her, asking nicely to take a step back) and she will get to the back where the ramp starts and plants the feet and I mean PLANTS them. I've tried a chain, I've tried a jumping whip to encourage her, I've tried bringing her equine friend to the back of the trailer for comfort. Finally I had some friends get lunge lines on and literally pull her out (not pretty) with her rearing and bouncing all around. I've tried getting part way in and she backs up fine but once all the way its like she grows roots, she is not going back.

I'm open to any and all suggestions - please I'm desperate.

Thank You in advance!!!

[CBudFrggy]

Can you swing the center divider to the other side, and hook it up with a bungee cord? That way your girl can bend her neck to see behind her. Then she could back out diagonally until she can turn. HTH.

[Evalee Hunter]

I assume she backs up well in hand on flat ground?

Can you load her & put the trailer in a fenced field, put the ramp down & let her figure it out? I think you need a comfortable chair & a good book to read & all the time in the world. If you are truly enjoying your reading, you may be disappointed by how fast she figures it out.

[Eventer Heart]

Both good suggestions!!!

I can pull the divider over but she still won't budge.

She backs great on the ground, we have been practicing that everyday without issue or argument - long distances about 75 feet. I can't leave her in there because all she wants to do is to turn around and I'm afraid she will hurt herself. Although honestly I almost left her there tonight. It had been over 3 hours and I was lost what to do.

Please keep them coming!!!

[CBudFrggy]

Don't laugh, but did you try leaving your lead rope over her neck , going to the back of the trailer and gently pulling her tail to back out? You can catch the lead rope on her way out. She might have been taught that trick somewhere in her past. Mine does that. He likes me to stand on the side of the ramp and guide him from there. After he hits solid ground he waits for me to pick up the lead. Is she sensible enough to try this?


ETA: While I gently tug his tail, I say, "Unload." Of course, I'm spoiled rotten b/c I just point him at the trailer and say, "Load up."

[WeDoItAll]

Back her off ledges, small ones at first. When I saw ledge, I mean, first from level driveway or pavement, to gravel. Then hopefully one with a little ledge on it. Also, back her out of her stall - perhaps it's the more narrow opening that's causing a problem. Then back her in a figure 8 pattern around and between two barrels. Let's see, also perhaps off a small drop (is it a step up or a ramp)? If a ramp, set up a ramp for her to go through a door and down somewhere. Might take some creativity to find other areas that are safe for YOU while you are working with her on this.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . Although honestly I almost left her there tonight. It had been over 3 hours and I was lost what to do.

Please keep them coming!!!

So how did she finally get out after three hours? What have you finally been doing that worked?

[retreadeventer]

I don't think the problem is that she will or won't back. It's that she is afraid of where her back feet are going, and does not want to step off into space, or step onto something she cannot see. She doesn't trust that the safe spot is there and fighting with her has convinced her that there is definitely something bad back there.

You have to teach her to "feel" where the the ground is with the above suggestion of backing her off ledges, back her onto a piece of safe sturdy plywood, back her onto a feed sack, etc. You must do this while she cannot see what it is. Reward lavishly.

You should also push the divider over and actually go back, pick the back foot up, and put a piece of 2x4 down under the foot, and allow her to step back down on top of it. The hind foot will be unlevel with the other hind foot as she stands in the trailer; which should cause her discomfort, and she'll want to step off that block -- GOOD -- be quick, when she does that, push her haunches over so that the hind feet start to move. Keep putting that block under one foot then the other, watch your self that you stay in a safe spot while doing this, don't get tangled up with the divider or butt bar. Point is get her thinking its SAFE to move those hind feet around.

This might help her to get her feet moving from one unlevel spot to another and let her have more of an idea of what you want. Make her uncomfortable with those hind feet so that she will want to be out on level ground.

I have heard of people breaking open a bale of straw at the back of the trailer and piling it up so that the horse feels the straw and steps back into something familiar.

Getting forceful will not work. She will be even more determined to stand her ground and not compromise herself. Reward her when she moves her feet especially back feet and keep her head as low as you can so that she feels more comfort. When she gets her head high she probably will plant. I think you want to keep those feet moving. PUsh her over, pick the feet up, push her back, etc. Reward at the slightest good thing she does.

Yes you can sit and wait but I've done that and been there a long time with nothing and it sure won't help you an an event or something where you have to get going and get tacked up. It teaches them they can stand all day and pick their own time to move. I would rather teach them the ground is there, it's safe, just try to find it, move when I want you to move because I'm the Mom Mom and it's OK -- and eventually they will trust you that it's ok. Just training.

? good luck!!! :)))

[rosijet]

Does it have a ramp? Try loading her just a step on and then backing her up. Do this several times and don't be shy with the praise and cookies. ;) Gradually increase how far you go into the trailer a few steps and back out again until she loads completely. Worked wonders for one of my horses who is too big to turn around in my slant load. If it's a step up (like mine), I asked him to just put his front legs on, wait, then step back. Did that many times then graduated to all four feet on, then immediately off. I also gave him a command word for stepping down so he knows when he hits the edge. I think it will take patience but will be worth the effort.

(just reread that it has a ramp - that should make this process easier!) :)

[ezmissg]

I can really sympathize with you. My mare used to load like a champ, but broke out of a trailer once at a show (other horse in trailer wigged and scared her out), and though we got her back in that day, afterwards it took a LONG time to get her back in the trailer...

WeDoItAll has great suggestions, but I'll throw out a couple of ideas:

[Obviously, you have to work on it when you don't need to go somewhere]

Food offerings were futile; my mare would have starved before she gave in to that one. Ahhhh, mares -- I love them so.

I always put a foam head bumper on her halter -- it made ME feel better! :)

Don't be afraid to use some Ace. My trainer was reluctant, but my vet said it was safer than what she might do to herself otherwise.

I wonder if what ultimately worked for us might work for you "in reverse".... we put on a surcingle and ran a lunge through her halter from the front, around her back end, and through the other side of the surcingle, attaching a lead rope to the donut that was tied to the first end of the lunge (making a big loop around her). Then, when we tugged from the front, the pressure came from behind below her rump. (You have to put knots in the lunge by the dees of the surcingle so that it can only drop so far to prevent the horse from getting tangled or caught up in it.) I just wonder if the same pressure at her chest might do the same for you?

I should point out that this was not a brutal tug of war. In my case, she would start to go in, then change her mind, rear, and RUSH back out. The pressure from the lunge at her rump created a boundary, but it was a lot more of us standing for a few minutes without slack, then a tug to get a step, then standing without slack, etc. And, because we were in front, but the pressure was from behind, she didn't associate it with us.

I guess my point is also to "think outside of the box"....

GOOD LUCK!

[ideayoda]

Walk on two steps, back up, walk on three steps, back up, walk on, back up for 15 minutes never going all the way in. (I would have a chain shank. And on the ground make sure she gets out of your space when you say BACK. Also, you can use a whip to touch the forelegs and say it (also done outside the trailer/etc). And w/o a divider she can turn around, but that doesnt teach anything. Rampless trailers are more difficult than ramped though imho.

[Eventer Heart]

All fantastic suggestions.

I eventually got her out by doing exactly what ezm came up with. Long lines, I couldn't get in the trailer with her to get the sursingle on but will put it on in advance next time. I just wrapped the lines around and prayed she didn't wig out too much. She reared whacked her head (thank goodness for head bumpers) reared again and then finally went flying out.

retread - I like the idea of backing her onto different things. I will try this. She is new to me and her previous owner did say that she takes time to "bond" and "trust" someone. This is why I tried so hard to take my time and be patient. Being Aggressive is way "outside the box" behavior for me. I much prefer to make it a good experience so we can travel easily together.

I've been lurking on this board for years and I knew I could count on all of you for help.
Thank You!

[Eventer Heart]

ideayoda -- Thank You, I have done this 50 times and she is great its when the back feet get in she won't come out. The front feet go up the ramp, back feet hit the ramp, front feet go in the trailer we back out great. I did baby steps for the last 2 weeks. Front feet in then out front feet in then out over and over with no issue. Its only when the back feet get in that she stops moving. I've tried the whip to tap the front legs and she totally shuts down. Won't look at me acts like I'm not even there. On the ground all I do is face her and click say back and she will back up all day. In the isle of the barn, in the grass, on the blacktop driveway anywhere I ask.

[RunForIt]

You have a PM. Is this a chesnut mare?

[Fence2Fence]

**ETA: Ideayoda posted a more concise version before I could get my reply typed up... **

One small caution: if you are practicing backing her up, be careful how much and how long you
ask. You can make her sore, and that will compound your problems.

I agree with Rosijet--load her up the ramp, and even if it's just one hoof that touches the ramp, stop, make her stand to let her think for a second, then back her up. And then let her stand and think for a second before asking for more. If she understands that, then let her step up enough onto the ramp with both front hooves, stop, stand, and back up. Etc, etc. I think it's something that's probably best done a little each day.

Honestly, as I sit her and think about the horse's perspective in this, I'd add one step. When I stopped her, before asking her to back up, I would feed a cookie/treat/mint. Just like you do with carrot stretches, I'd ask the mare to turn her head to her elbow and take the treat from there. Try to get her to realize she can turn her head to see what's behind her.

I think becuase she is learning a new 'method,' you have to be careful of being 'too nice' and being forceful and confusing. I would stop, give whatever command you taught her to back, and then enforce it.

The other thing I'd check is the heaviness of the ramp. Is it really heavy? When horses walk on it, does it 'bounce'? I've seen a couple of ramps that 'bounce' a little--and that's very unnerving to a horse that's not used to backing out on footing that is essentially shifting.

Let us know how it goes. Both of mine have really taught me how frustrating loading/unloading can be. They are little gems for the most part now...I look forward to the day I can point and say 'load' just like CBudFrggy does!

[texang73]

Walk on two steps, back up, walk on three steps, back up, walk on, back up for 15 minutes never going all the way in. (I would have a chain shank. And on the ground make sure she gets out of your space when you say BACK. Also, you can use a whip to touch the forelegs and say it (also done outside the trailer/etc). And w/o a divider she can turn around, but that doesnt teach anything. Rampless trailers are more difficult than ramped though imho.

That's exactly what my trainer suggested to me when my horse didn't want to back out of a trailer with ramp (his first time with a ramp). My horse's not wanting to back down the ramp was more of a "Are you sure I can back down that mom? I've never done that before and it's weird", rather than being afraid, scared. He kept wanting to look around behind him, and when he realized he couldn't do that, he trusted me enough to guide him back. He's a quick learner and by the home trip, he unloaded easily...

[Sithly]

You've got some great suggestions already, but just in case you need another tool in your toolbox, try holding her head to the side. Basically, you use your lead rope to pull her head off to the side far enough that it's uncomfortable (but no more than 90 degrees). Don't tie her, but loop the rope through something so she can't pull loose and get her head straight. Eventually, she will back up to relieve the pressure. The backing won't be as scary since it's "her" idea.

This may be a good option for you if she's big on theatrics when you try the other methods. It's pretty low key. And after a few sessions, she'll figure it out and it won't be an issue any more.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Will she back up if you are at her head? I've had two off the track that would not back up until you were at their head. I'd untie their head (in case they did decide to back up), drop the ramp, drop the butt bar....they would stand still not moving and I would walk around the trailer, get to their head and then ask them to back up. And they were fine. They had obviously been taught not to unload unless there was a handler at their head. It was actually kind of nice....

[ezmissg]

All fantastic suggestions.

I eventually got her out by doing exactly what ezm came up with. Long lines, I couldn't get in the trailer with her to get the sursingle on but will put it on in advance next time. I just wrapped the lines around and prayed she didn't wig out too much. She reared whacked her head (thank goodness for head bumpers) reared again and then finally went flying out.

Well, Yikes! Did I contribute to THAT? I sure hope not!

I firmly agree with everyone else here about the baby-steps of training. We did all of that MANY times. But, it sounds like my mare was the same as yours in that it only worked up to a point, and then she just STOOD her ground. She wasn't going to budge, period. (Because when she broke out of the trailer, she had cut her head and back, she was just SURE that the trailer was going to EAT her.) And, we worked on it for months. She would get her front feet in, but 90 minutes later, still no hind legs. One time we worked on it almost 5 hours.

When you park the trailer, can you find a slope that makes the ramp less slanted? Or less "hollow"? I swear, I love ramps, but sometimes I think people like them better than horses!

I also wonder if you can get in front of her in the trailer. When she decides not to back, does she move forward again?

I'm still pondering how the lunge/surcingle would work best in reverse. Maybe, when you run the lunge through, you could put it through the sides of the halter under her chin?...or if she didn't respond to pressure at her head, you could put the pressure more on her chest by incorporating a standing martingale somehow? I just know that having the dees on the surcingle really made a more stable positioning of the lunge line. (Since this is pretty much like driving, you should also practice it outside the trailer first to find out what works best.)

Again, this was NOT rough handling, NOT tug of war. It was just a method of pressure and release.

The good news is that my mare is back to loading beautifully. As you know, it CAN be done once you figure out the key for HER. :yes:

[underthesun]

let me just add that if there's not enough room to turn around to begin with and she's shady about backing out already, DO NOT encourage her to rubberneck to look behind her (and back diagonally with the divider over until she can turn around etc).

My horse really, really rushes that method if I don't calculate him perfectly. Backing diagonally until she can turn around is okay if you keep her under control and paying attention, but letting her look out the back can make her impatient and maybe nearly push you over.

I hope the caveat makes sense here...? I've had some rough trailer experiences with my old WB campaigner :no: (I'll just say that he's taught me a lot about being careful, courteous, and sensitive to old wounds I don't know about)

[Eventer Heart]

:D Well everyone, its taken way more patience than I thought I had but my new girl is backing out of the trailer now!!! I have spent countless hours working on it but when I went for my lesson yesterday I untied her went to the other side of the trailer with her said back and she inched out slowly but surley. Took about 5 minutes to get feet on the ground - but who the heck cares she is doing it and every time is getting better.

Add that to the great first jump lesson and I'm couldn't be happier!

Thank You ALL!!!!!

[ezmissg]

HOORAY! CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Isn't it amazing how excited/happy you can be about something that customarily seems like a "little thing", but then becomes a "big thing" ... and then gets resolved? :)

[RunForIt]

:D Well everyone, its taken way more patience than I thought I had but my new girl is backing out of the trailer now!!! I have spent countless hours working on it but when I went for my lesson yesterday I untied her went to the other side of the trailer with her said back and she inched out slowly but surley. Took about 5 minutes to get feet on the ground - but who the heck cares she is doing it and every time is getting better.

Add that to the great first jump lesson and I'm couldn't be happier!

Thank You ALL!!!!!

Hurray!!!!!! You two are a super pair - NO ONE has ever gotten that mare to back out of a trailer unless it was butted up against a hill - fantastic news!!!!! :cool:

Now, make sure you start another thread so that we hear about all your success in events and clinics! :D