Personal Space/Weanling Colt?

[Samotis]

Hello, yes here I am again asking more questions!

I took Ace up north last week to be weaned. He is doing quite well and has a TB mare that he is being turned out with at night.

My question is, he is pretty naughty when you go to clean his stall. I usually just wait until he goes to turnout to clean his stall because he gives me no personal space. He gets pushy and if you shoo him away he only comes back for more. Yes, where he was before is actually where he got that bad habit and is one reason why he is now where he is.

I would like to someday be able to clean his stall while he is in there without him mugging me and trying to knock me down!!

Any suggestions?

just a thought, he is 4.5 months old and is a big strong colt, he has to be at least 550 pounds and 13.2 already, so I would like to stop this behaviour before it gets worse!

[Sunny's Mom]

Be quick with the elbow now, to prevent possibly serious injury (to you) later. I know it seems mean, but they MUST stay out of your personal space.

There are two ways I know how to work on it.

One, go in there and pay attention to him. When he finally reaches around to "groom" you back with his teeth - push him back firmly and tell him no. Go back to grooming. When he comes at you again, tell him no, etc.

Another way. Ignore him, clean the stall or whatever. When he comes over to molest you, jab him with your elbow in the neck or nose so that he knows he is too close. Look at him and make a noise (growl) so he knows to keep back a bit.

[Samotis]

oh, see the elbow thing doesn't work. He just bowls you over. He doesn't bite or attack, he just body slams!

The elbow doesn't faze him at all.

When he was at my friends, it unfortunatly became a game. She would let him mug her and now he thinks it is a funny game.

I am all for being harsh because I know this situation warrants it, but he just is a little smarter then your average foal.:(

[Samotis]

I am just not sure what to do to get the reaction I want!

Last time he really got too close I smacked him good on the nose. He jumped back and ran to the end of the stall, and then you could see his little brain thinking of what to do next. What did he do?

Well, he took a running start and lept over the whole wheelbarrel out of the stall into the barn and just stood there looking at me, like "Ha, see, now you can't get me!"

Little stinker, its starting to frustrate me that I can't out think him!

[Sunny's Mom]

LOL! That is a bummer the elbow doesn't work.

I'm not a huge fan of smacking on the nose, but I know some people who use it sparingly, with good effect.

I've been pretty lucky, most of my babies have been pocket ponies. But I do have a big strapping colt this year myself (clue: barn name is "Tank") and I wonder if he'll be nippy.

What do other people do?

[Highflyer]

Muck him while he's eating. Otherwise I think it's asking a lot of a weanling. We do stalls with our weaners in them in the winter--we muck them while they eat breakfast, than they go out. They learn pretty quick that way. They also generally tie pretty well by the time they're 6 months or so, so if they have to they can be tied in the stall (with twine at the end of the stall chain.) That way they're not escaping.

[Samotis]

I did used to tie him before we weaned while I cleaned his stall. That worked fine.

Now I don't clean his stall unless he is out. He would rather bug me then eat anyway:)

If it is something he will grow out of then I can just give him time, I was just wondering if there is a way to fix this, or it is just something they do.

[Bravestrom]

My colt - a yearling - was getting really pushing at feeding time. He is 16.2hh - so yes a big boy for a yearling.

I used a dressage whip to lay down the law - not hard but enough that he would respect it and me.

If you are bad the whip comes back - one week of that and he now knows that he stands at the side of his stall until the feed is in the bowl and he doesn't try to leave the stall or push me.

It was the best thing I could have done - he just wasn't being respectful before that but now is really good - I was never mean about it but respect has to be there and he was getting a bit full of himself - this was just about the time that all the mares came into heat. He is not scared of the whip - but he respects it. If he gets pushy it comes back and he knows it. I rarely need to bring it out now.

You have to be the boss with a colt imo.

[Sithly]

He won't grow out of it unless you make him. :D

I agree with Promodus. Lay down the law a few times, hard, and you'll be much happier. It's far better to make a few decisive corrections than to constantly nag him with little taps.

He's not too young to learn manners -- that should start as soon as they're steady on their legs.

[TouchstoneAcres]

Lead him with a wire brush attached to your right forearm. When he crowds you he self corrects. Tie him in the stall. If he pushed against you he feels the brush. No harm done just an irritation. It is safer to always tie a horse when grooming anyway, and not to trust a colt/stallion.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The joys of using a plastic pitchfork. :winkgrin: A light poke or two may help him to learn to keep his distance. :yes:

That said, if he is really just learning to be weaned, I would avoid cleaning when he is in until he is totally settled.

[TaliaCristianna]

My colt - a yearling - was getting really pushing at feeding time. He is 16.2hh - so yes a big boy for a yearling.

I used a dressage whip to lay down the law - not hard but enough that he would respect it and me.

If you are bad the whip comes back - one week of that and he now knows that he stands at the side of his stall until the feed is in the bowl and he doesn't try to leave the stall or push me.

It was the best thing I could have done - he just wasn't being respectful before that but now is really good - I was never mean about it but respect has to be there and he was getting a bit full of himself - this was just about the time that all the mares came into heat. He is not scared of the whip - but he respects it. If he gets pushy it comes back and he knows it. I rarely need to bring it out now.

You have to be the boss with a colt imo.

This method works beautifully. I used a crop (not that it really matters.) Also works great for horses that are pushy while being led. If they invade your space, they get a pop.

I figure pop with a whip is a less painful reprimand then what he would receive if he was pushy around another horse...

[Samotis]

The crop worked wonders when we started leading him. He is great to lead now, if he get pushy, I just raise the end of the lead rope and he backs off.

I suppose I can try the crop in the stall, although I might need a longer one.:)

I will give him some time to settle in his new surroundings, I don't want to fry the little guy.

Pitch fork didn't work. That is when he proceeded to jump over the wheel barrel and stand in the aisle smurking at me. (while his mother went crazy and tried to run me down)

Nothing seems to scare him, which is why I could be having the problems I am having. He is extremly bold about everything. When he was little he got his hoof stuck on the wheelbarrel and it flipped over on him. He just layed there and waited for me to lift it off and then he just sat up and looked at me like, that was interesting, then popped up and ran to mom!

I tell ya, these foals are a riot! (when they are not body slamming you!):winkgrin:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Well, then that little buggar would get tied up. :yes:

[Fairview Horse Center]

What works well with a lot of stallions is to use those plastic kids bats. Just the strange look of them gets their attention, but the sound is an added bonus if needed. I could also try my son's Star Wars light sabers, but I bet he would make me pay to replace them if damaged. :lol:

[lauriep]

I did used to tie him before we weaned while I cleaned his stall. That worked fine.

Now I don't clean his stall unless he is out. He would rather bug me then eat anyway:)

If it is something he will grow out of then I can just give him time, I was just wondering if there is a way to fix this, or it is just something they do.

Fix it NOW, while he is young, not TOO big, and impressionable. They don't out grow it, they just get worse. Make the corrections mean something, don't just pick at him. It is FINE if he is a little afraid of you for awhile. He'll get over it once he learns the lesson. These babies aren't lap dogs and they can/will hurt you if you don't draw the boundaries early and clearly.

[kmp2707]

Would you all consider these corrections (I am thinking dressage whip) to be effective and proper for a one week old colt? Mine was born bucking and kicking.....pretty much as soon as he was up he walloped at me and has now started coming at me and trying to rear. It is playful moves at this point, but he can really get some air time with those back feet and I rather like my brains unscrambled.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would never use a whip on a foal. Babies kick in defence. As soon as they begin to trust you, they quit kicking. Whipping them will not create trust. Use a metal trash can lid so when they kick, it makes noise. If they come at you to play, just push them away, or don't work with them without putting a halter and lead on, so you can control what they do witout resorting to punishment. Never let them play with you.

[Samotis]

I think if you stop them when they are young, you will have less of a problem.

my problem didn't start until he was at least 3 months. It was because the BO would go in there and let him push her around and now he thinks it is a game. He has never kicked at me and he certainly isn't afraid of me!

At a week old, maybe what fairview said about putting a halter on them would help. Just walk him around with you while you clean the stall and make him stand. It will teach him a little patience and how to lead a little better!

Good luck.

I am just learning all this too, and everyone is right, they aren't play toys, they are big strong animals and it is best to stop any bad behavior, even if it is just playing!

[kmp2707]

When I go into the stall I do give scratches on neck and shoulders. If (when) he gets pushy I stop and leave him alone or push him away from me. When he turns to kick out, I try to stay out of the way and yell NO at him. I have had the halter on him almost every day since birth, but no lead rope at this point. I'll start that tonight when I go to clean the stall.

[Bravestrom]

I would never use a whip on a foal. Babies kick in defence. As soon as they begin to trust you, they quit kicking. Whipping them will not create trust. Use a metal trash can lid so when they kick, it makes noise. If they come at you to play, just push them away, or don't work with them without putting a halter and lead on, so you can control what they do witout resorting to punishment. Never let them play with you.

It is a matter of action and consequence - my babies learn from an early age not to be afraid of the whip but to respect it and me.

I am dealing with really large wb/draft cross babies and I can easily carry a dressage whip around with me and tap them to enforce good behaviour but I sure don't have a garbage can lid with me all the time. Also - it would make them afraid of large objects.

and I don't "WHIP" them - they are taught that if they lift a leg at me to kick - there is a consequence - it's all in how you do it - It is not necessarily a strong punishment but a reinforcement of good behaviour that you want.

But there has to be a consequence they understand.

My yearling colt knows to stand at the side of his stall when his feed is brought in - I could never have done this without the dressage whip - he learned that if he didn't move over when tapped with the whip the consequence would be a harder tap - he knows now to stand and he knows now that a tap must be respected. He is certainly not whipped and he is not afraid of the whip - I regularly take the whip over his body to show him that if he is good there is no fear but that if the whip taps him he must move.

Exactly what he will need to know when he starts working - and when he starts working as a three year old I certainly don't want that to be the first time he sees a dressage whip - this way as a yearling (actually started using it at weaning- didn't need it before then) - he has the knowledge and respect already in place.

I expect the respect to be there all the time - no ands, ifs or buts.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Yearlings are a different cup of tea than a week or two old foal. The garbage can lid is more to protect a inexperienced person trying to catch a foal in a stall. It is easy to leave it outside a stall door. I personally have not had to use that trick since around 1980. Defensive kicking is MUCH different than aggressive kicking, and needs to be dealt with differently.

My foals don't kick at me except occasionally the first day or so when they are really afraid. I spend the time catching them, and scratchng them, so they are happy to see me.

[kmp2707]

The garbage can lid is an interesting concept, although I am not quite sure how I would buckle the halter on with the lid in one hand.

The kid was pretty good last night. I haltered him and washed his butt with a wet wash cloth since he has a bit of scours. This morning however, he was right at me with his chest as soon as I came in the stall. Fortunately I was carrying in the water bucket which promptly splashed him in the chest and backed him off.

This isn't my first foal, but I haven't had a naughty colt since 1989. My fillies have all been dolls and easy from day one.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The point with the trash can lid is that it is only needed once or twice, as they don't like that noise, and it is clearly a result of their action.

This morning however, he was right at me with his chest as soon as I came in the stall. Fortunately I was carrying in the water bucket which promptly splashed him in the chest and backed him off.

Wow, you have a week old baby rearing and striking at you?!?! :eek: Is he on normal turnout? I would continue to just push him away. Sounds like he needs a playmate, and you are not it. ;)

[hessy35]

Have someone stand in the stall and hold him in hand while you muck. If he is quiet, YOU praise him a lot for standing and not pulling away from his handler. Praise him, then muck a little and move him out of your way to muck more, praise again, and muck some more. Handler just needs to keep him standing and out of your way while you muck but no praise from her/him, just you. Do this several times until he knows "Oh, standing still and out of mom’s way is a GOOD thing when mom mucks, I get lots of love"....

[kmp2707]

No, he doesn't rear and strike at me. He pushes into me with his shoulder and/or chest. He wants attention, ok, he demands attention. Mom and baby are on full turnout with an attached stall. I have been kicking them out of the stall for cleaning as the kid is so curious I have a feeling he would crawl over the wheelbarrow into the rest of the barn just to see what is on the other side.

I agree a playmate would be ideal, but I have no other foals this year.

[Fairview Horse Center]

No, he doesn't rear and strike at me. He pushes into me with his shoulder and/or chest. He wants attention, ok, he demands attention.

Ahhh, that is the behavior I just LOVE. I would certainly never discourage that. THAT is what I wait for with my babies, to know I can quit spending so much time tryng to win their trust. That is why I put them in stall guards, to encourage them to visit with anyone passing their stall.

I don't let them approach me with their mouths - that is when I push them away, or if they rear/strike. But being pushy, demanding a scratch? YES! Even more, I love it when they turn and back into me with their butts to demand a tail scratch. My babies grow up with LOTS of respect for me, but my 3 year olds will still stop going thru a door in hope of that scratch/pat.

Once I get that level of trust, leading goes easy. I can follow them and when they get stuck, I can even pinch their butts standing right behind them to goose them froward, and they would never think of kicking me.

[Samotis]

Well my colt has already done the jumping wheelbarrel thing! 3 times. He would get in my face and I would shoo him away, well he got mad so jumped out of the stall.

Then he just stares at me like ha, now you can't get me. Doesn't run away. Saying he is bold is the understatement of the year.

But, he is now weaned and up north with my friend. He is getting much better as he is getting turned out all night with TB mare. Ample turnout really does help a lot. He never lost any wait on the weaning trip and is happy as a clam!

So here is a serious question. I can do anything to him except brush his mane. He goes absolutly insane. Has a temper tantrum!

Should I just let it go and hope he will get better? What would cause this?
Just worried as he will need to be braided in October and I don't want it to be a terrible experience! Have you ever seen this in a colt?

[Star Creek]

Well my colt has already done the jumping wheelbarrel thing! 3 times. He would get in my face and I would shoo him away, well he got mad so jumped out of the stall.

Then he just stares at me like ha, now you can't get me. Doesn't run away. Saying he is bold is the understatement of the year.

But, he is now weaned and up north with my friend. He is getting much better as he is getting turned out all night with TB mare. Ample turnout really does help a lot. He never lost any wait on the weaning trip and is happy as a clam!

So here is a serious question. I can do anything to him except brush his mane. He goes absolutly insane. Has a temper tantrum!

Should I just let it go and hope he will get better? What would cause this?
Just worried as he will need to be braided in October and I don't want it to be a terrible experience! Have you ever seen this in a colt?

WOW, sounds like he needs loads more basic handling. Leading, standing, space, grooming, washing, feet...all the basics. He sounds very smart so seems like he just needs more time spent on him. Nothing troubling or stressful, just the short sessions of good baby citizen lessons. I also spend much time grooming my young horses, both treating them to grooming of the places they really, really like (I have a yearling who will do ANYTHING for a withers or butt scratch) and consistently working on those spots that are not as comfortable for them for whatever reason. I have a young mare who hates to have her back legs sprayed with fly spray. I alternate between the withers scratches and the spray. She's quickly come around to realizing its no big deal.

Sounds like he's training you.

[Samotis]

Maybe you didn't understand my post.

As of now we only have 2 issues. Mugging in the stall and brushing mane.

He loads, clips and ties as well as gets baths 1 time a week and has had the farrier trim him twice. He is an absolute gentleman for all of that. He leads great and you can pick his feet super easy as well as basically anything else, except mane brushing!!!;)

He has been handled plenty, I am just so surprised about this mane brush thing. It doesn't seem like it should be a big deal, but he hates it!

He could care less about fly spray or anything like that as well. As this is my first foal, you are right, maybe he is training me.;) But, I like to think I am teaching him the right things, but he just isn't grasping the mane brush.

Now I just pet his mane and rub him between his ears and praise, but as soon as the brush comes out, watch out!:no:

[Star Creek]

Maybe you didn't understand my post.

As of now we only have 2 issues. Mugging in the stall and brushing mane.

He loads, clips and ties as well as gets baths 1 time a week and has had the farrier trim him twice. He is an absolute gentleman for all of that. He leads great and you can pick his feet super easy as well as basically anything else, except mane brushing!!!;)

He has been handled plenty, I am just so surprised about this mane brush thing. It doesn't seem like it should be a big deal, but he hates it!

He could care less about fly spray or anything like that as well. As this is my first foal, you are right, maybe he is training me.;) But, I like to think I am teaching him the right things, but he just isn't grasping the mane brush.

Now I just pet his mane and rub him between his ears and praise, but as soon as the brush comes out, watch out!:no:

I am so empathetic that perhaps I didn't fully explain. I'm sure fly spraying isn't a big deal to your colt, but mane brushing wasn't a big deal to my filly. I had success at gently and gradually pairing something she liked (wither and butt scratches) with the thing that made her freak out: fly spray on her hind legs. Eventually, because I did the two together or nearly at the same time, she realized the thing she hated was really no big deal. I'd always start with the thing she liked, then add the other. In my case, though if you watch closely you can tell it's still not her favorite thing, I can spray her hind legs without her moving and without me risking a hoof print "tattoo" :)

She also was also a horrible crowder of my personal space. (resulting in my first broken foot and numerous nasty bruises.) It may not be the case with you, but for me, I realized that (though she did some things for me REALLY well) she didn't really respect me enough to stay off me when I gave her a light push...not even when I gave her a REALLY FIRM SHOVE. For us, it was all corrected when we started doing more of the basics of yielding to my touch, most of which started while leading. When loose in the stall I had to start really strongly, including just once giving her a wack with a jumping bat on the shoulder so she would back off. I made it quick, sharp and then put the bat back in my back pocket so she associated the correction with my displeasure on being crowded (and so that I wouldn't be reliant on always have to carry a bat to be safe.) She reeled backward, head up and eyes rolled back (seriously, there wasn't even a mark on her, so it was the shock factor that caused the dramatic reaction). I just stood quietly and continued to pick her stall. A few seconds later, she came toward me again to push me and I made a sharp "Ut-Uhn" sound and gave her a jab with the fingers of one hand. She pulled away again...tried again, etc. Each time it took less reaction from me to get her to yield. (I think you might have to make sure he can't get away from you by jumping over the wheel barrow, else he's by default "winning".) Now (months later mind you), I can poke her gently with one finger and she'll yield, plus, the big plus, she doesn't get in my space anymore. She still LOVES the wither and shoulder scratches and pretty much always seems happy to see me.

I had to do the same thing at feeding time until she realized it was not acceptable to push into me to steal food before I got it to her stall. She now, wonderfully, stands about 3 feet behind me and waits for me to put down her food and move away. Again, there were a number of times where I stood over her hay and grain and did not let her near them, until she realized the quickest way to get me to walk away from her food was to be polite.

It took some really dramatic action from me (but no pain inflicted) and a number of different times and situations to get her to realize I am the "lead horse in the herd", not her. I'm no follower of any Natural Horsemanship schemes, but I have watched the lead mares in the pasture and tried to become my own "lead mare."

She still requires reminding from time to time, and not always in the same type of situation, but we are worlds better than where she started.

Hope that clarifies. If it's any consolation, I think my filly's extremely smart too. The dull ones are never a problem :)

Best !