Branding...what for?

[Donella]

Ok, so this is the first year I have bred my Hanoverians. We have three fillies, two of which I will be retaining for breeding mares or possibly selling as going three year olds. The branding is being organized and so when I was at my vets yesterday (who also breeds Hanos) I asked her if it hurts, what the real purpose is ect. She said yes, it's quite painful and they do react. She said it's done because they are Hanoverians and it needs to be done..like brand name recognition, it's tradition ect. I had always heard from people on this board that it's nothing, they don't react, no big deal ect. Now I am seriously feeling worried about this!

So, is there any value to this other than asthetics? I am a vegetarian, I do not support alot of industries that I believe involve cruelty to animals ect..so how can I just allow my foals to be burnt and scarred for what really boils down to fashion?

Ahhh, someone talk to me!:(

[siegi b.]

Hi Donella,

the way it was explained to me by a veterinarian was that the branding iron is so hot that it immdiately kills all the nerve endings that could signal pain to the brain. What the horse reacts to is the smoke and smell of branding. The other thing horses apparently don't have is the delayed onset of pain that humans experience when getting burned. You should watch a few horses get branded to see what it's like. I have touched the branded area on a horse later in the day it happened and the animal was not sensitive to it at all.

On the other hand, I don't think branding is mandatory, so you have a choice.

Best,
Siegi

[ahf]

What Siegi said. If the foal is hurt, it's because the iron was not left in the forge long enough. It startles them - the smoke (don't showsheen the area to be branded!!!) but correctly done, it will not hurt them. I've accidently GROOMED over the new brand the next day, and the foal didn't flick an ear.

You don't have to brand. I prefer it, because after watching and having my own branded I am confident in the process. If the horse is stolen, it helps with recovery. You can't color over or cover up a hot brand.

And, if the horse should ever fall on hard times and end up skinny and dirty on an auction lot, the brand will tell a horseman that thought and an approval process was put into the breeding of this animal, and this horse may be worth a closer look.

If you decide to do it, just make sure the iron goes back into the forge for every foal.

[misita]

I'm with Siegi and AHF. I think the branding hurts us more than the horse. My foals never have a reaction more than the shock of the fire and smoke smell and then seem fine thereafter. I have also never had an infection because of branding. The inspectors do say not to put anything on the brand though.

[Elfe]

Ok, so this is the first year I have bred my Hanoverians. We have three fillies, two of which I will be retaining for breeding mares or possibly selling as going three year olds. The branding is being organized and so when I was at my vets yesterday (who also breeds Hanos) I asked her if it hurts, what the real purpose is ect. She said yes, it's quite painful and they do react. She said it's done because they are Hanoverians and it needs to be done..like brand name recognition, it's tradition ect. I had always heard from people on this board that it's nothing, they don't react, no big deal ect. Now I am seriously feeling worried about this!

So, is there any value to this other than asthetics? I am a vegetarian, I do not support alot of industries that I believe involve cruelty to animals ect..so how can I just allow my foals to be burnt and scarred for what really boils down to fashion?

Ahhh, someone talk to me!:(

I feel the same way. Last year I took my mare to be inspected, the branding was scheduled for later in the day. The mare behaved perfectly during the inspection even though we had to leave her non weaned baby at home (this was an overnight trip).
I watched when they started branding the other horses and did not like what I saw. Two horses took off, dragging handlers with them. I opted out, did not think it was right to inflict pain on my horse and punish her for having been a good girl !

[EquusMagnificus]

Donella -

I had my boy branded and I thought I was going to faint!! :eek:

But in the end, he is actually worse about flies than about branding! He didn't react AT ALL. It varies from a horse to another.

Minutes after branding I could touch it and feel it and he never flinched. As if there was nothing! At the end of the day, there was some very light swelling around the edges of the brand but there has not been a minute of pain or discomfort or flinching or nothing! I was actually pleasantly surprised!

I had read some researches proving that TRAILERING was by far more stressful then branding. Researchers measured the levels of stress hormones and it was pretty obvious that horses would MUCH rather be branded then loaded onto a trailer!

Yet, we never think about it and ship them all over the place...

Same thing goes for pulling their manes, ill-fitting tack and so on... You get the point :-)


Simply food (and facts!) for thought... :winkgrin:


After my own experience and my witnessing a few horses getting branded, I would and will have all my babies branded in the future. I have no worries.

[pintopiaffe]

While *I* was shakey and teary after my first branding... the baby wasn't.

And she declined to load at the end of the day, and I accidentally pushed right on the brand spot. It did not help load her--in other words, it didn't HURT.

Now, branding done wrong? Yeah.

I've attended a half dozen inspections now with brandings, and never seen anything except a normal 'startle' reaction.

Do you have to do it? For some inspections, yes, you must. I did not realize but RPSI you MUST. It is part of the identification process. You may or may not be able to choose another registry.

I thought it was a very good idea on my pure-black-without-a-white-hair filly. ID purposes. On my very distinctive pintos, no, I don't see as much need and did not get them done.

How often do you see posts here on CotH asking about a horse of approx such age, with thus brand? Fairly common. I *do* think it gives a purebred/registered/inspected horse a better chance at being recognized as such.

[tri]

I don't know. Jumping hurts horses, dressage hurts horses, eventing ESPECIALLY hurts horses. Most dressage horses will develop some kind of hock or stifle issues, most jumpers will get quite a bit of arthritis. Going to inspections & horse shows are stressful though some seem to actually like it, most probably would rather stay home. Girths can chafe, and when a shod horse accidentally hits themselves, it can create quite the injury, I am sure gelding doesn't feel good.

So are you just going to leave them in the field?

[graystonefarm]

I hate the smell. :dead:

[Joanne]

Donella: You don't have to have your foals branded. While it is encouraged, it is NOT mandatory. You don't even have to take your foals to an inspection site to get papers. It can all be done by mail. While I did take my foal to the "inspection" site, I did not get him branded as I just seen a terribly infected brand in Germany on a foal.

But now that I no longer own that foal, I am sorta sorry he does not have it. If he ever, horribly, ends up at an auction, no one will know he is a Hanoverian. With a brand, he might stand out to someone familiar with warmbloods.

And don't let anyone tell you they are not Hanoverians unless they are branded. I got in quite a disagreement with an old time Hanoverian breeder who implied by foal was of lesser quality because he never had a brand. You will see Hanoverians with terribly faded brands or misshapened brands, so bad that they may as well not have them at all.

You DON"T have to get them branded, no matter what your vet told you.

[Donella]

Hmm, thanks for all the replies guys. :) Having taken a number of Vertebrate physiology classes though, I am not sure that their nervous system is much different from ours??. The skin is certainly thicker.. so maybe they have a higher pain tolerance? How are you guys sure they are reacting to the smoke ect and not the pain?

I will probably have them done and see what happens. If it doesn't seem to give them much trouble after the initial few seconds of the actual branding, then I will be fine with it.... I think :o

[Donella]

Joanne,
thanks for your reply. Yes, I notice that I can barely see the brand on my chestnut mares (all three of them!). I wonder why this is? Yet on the grey mare, it is super obvious.

[Joanne]

Donella: When I read your initial post, I didn't see that you were from Canada. I don't know the regulations up there since they are so closely tied to the Verband in Germany. So all this information may be inaccurate in your particular case. It is with the American Hanoverian Society that you don't have to present the foal to get the papers.

Maybe a Hanoverian breeder from Canada can help you out or your main office.

Good luck, and let us know what you find out.

[Ghazzu]

Charring flesh not painful?
An interesting viewpoint.

[FuelsterFarm]

I have professionally handled horses of all ages at inspections for several years now... other than a quick jump or step forward when they smell the icky smoke, I have never had a horse behave at all badly for branding. I am sure I feel worse about the process than they do!

[Katy9532]

I actually got a brand on myself when I was younger, (I thougth it was cool!), It did not hurt me at all!!! I cannot think that it would hurt a horse worse than me.

No, Im not wierd, mostly normal. I'm kinda pround of it.

[Daydream Believer]

Charring flesh not painful?
An interesting viewpoint.

Yes, my reaction also. I've had a bad burn on my hand...3rd degree...it did hurt and it hurt badly. It also hurt later and for days. Yes I have seen hot brandings also at a WB inspection and the horses I saw did react as if it hurt.

I guess I see a hot brand as being unnecessary. I'd rather freeze brand under sedation if I were going to brand at all.

For those who think all horses take it calmly... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aEe_cIumMU

[Joanne]

Anyone ever find out the story behind that video? Who the unlucky guy was? I think I heard it might have been a wild horse branding.

[tri]

Can't help but think that the horse kicking in that video had absolutely nothing to do with the branding. I bet he would have gotten the same reaction if he had just touched that horse with his finger tips or with the tip of a dressage whip.

[Daydream Believer]

Can't help but think that the horse kicking in that video had absolutely nothing to do with the branding. I bet he would have gotten the same reaction if he had just touched that horse with his finger tips or with the tip of a dressage whip.

I actually think he kicked because it hurt and he had no way to escape the pain (in the stocks) than to kick the source of the pain. ;)

[DownYonder]

If you don't want your horses branded, then don't do it. Oldenburg (GOV) doesn't brand in the U.S., and the Dutch don't brand until the horses are at least 3 years of age (and not at all in Holland). There are a heck of a lot of Oldenburg and Dutch horses running around that never got branded, and it had no bearing on their quality at all. They are the same horses, with or without brands.

[Joanne]

The OP is from Canada. That is a whole different situation. I found this cached on the internet. It is from the Hanoverian breeding club of Western Canada. This may or may not have been changed.


Elite Mares :
At the mare shows, a mare can obtain the title of an “Elite Mare” or “Elite Mare Candidate.” This is the equivalent to the title “Staatspramienstute” which can only be awarded in Germany.

Regulations for the title of an “Elite Mare” in Canada:
1) the mare must either carry the Canadian Hanoverian hip brand or the brand of the Verband or the brand of another approved Hanoverian society and must be entered into the main studbook.

[Platinum Equestrian]

As a buyer and sometimes seller (not a breeder) I like seeing horses branded with registry brands. Its the greatest marketing/advertising an association has, in my opinion.

I think the smoke and the smell of burning hair is the worst part of it all for the horses... and possibly the handlers ;) . If you are a vegetarian, you may have a more involved conflict with it morally. I'm not sure. Good luck with whatever you decide...

[Donella]

Thanks guys. Joanne I am a member of the Western club and yet I didn't see that part about the elite mares, so thanks for posting that!:).
So, while I know branding is not manditory for foals I did not know that a mare had to carry the brand to be Elite eligable. In this case I will likely brand..I would hate to have to do it at a later date when the horses are mature, I would imagine they would have to be done in stocks ??.

The dams of these fillies are Elite mares and while I don't want to just assume that these fillies will be as well but they are, as of right now, at least as good as their dams in terms of quality. I would hate for this to come up later if they are EMC's. I wonder why this rule exists anyways?

It is also interesting to me that many registries have brandings during the inspection. With our club, the brandings do not take place at the same time as the inspection. Apparently there was some incident and outrage about it when it was being done at the inspection which is held during the Masters at Spruce Meadows every year.

Anyways, thanks everyone..this really helps hearing everyone's experiences ect.

[Joanne]

Donella: I don't know that it is really the current information. It was on an old page, so it might have been changed. Best to check with the club. With the American Hanoverian Society you can only brand in the weanling and yearling years, so you may want to check on that also.

Good luck! and I know how you feel about branding.

[Ajierene]

Just a word on watching the brandings. Way back in the day, when I was an Animal Science major in school we were docking the tails of the lambs. I was not sure about this, but it was explained that they are lot more likely to get manure stuck under the tail and cause issue- hence the docking.

The professors explained that you can tell how much an animal is bothered by the pain by how quickly it goes back to nursing/grazing/resuming normal activity.

So, go watch some brandings, and see how the horses are before and after the branding. It is a bit harder to see because you don't have them necessarily being set free to do what they want, but an observation if they are sent back to the trailer and get right to the haynet or what not can help you determine whether or not to brand.

[dressagetraks]

I have had one horse branded. It was not done in stocks. The brander in fact told us all to immediately walk the horse forward, give him somewhere for the initial spook to. I saw 10 horses done, none in stocks, nobody kicked at all. One of them flamed up a bit - Show Sheen - but that horse did not react as much as mine did. Mine jumped a bit initially, settled down within like 2 seconds later. When I touched the area, no reaction. Never favored that hip, never twitched, went straight to grazing. He was startled for about 2 seconds, and that was it. This horse was a bit of a wimp and certainly not the stoic type. Quick, over, back to grazing, no residual effects at all (other than the brand).

I'm forced to conclude, given how much drama he could put into a minor scratch, that it didn't really hurt him.

[gubbyz]

Oh good grief! It is over in a second, they will not remember it, and if I am spending the money for an excellent breeding, and all the work for the inspection, you darn well better believe they are getting branded! :yes:

[fish]

I believe the question was "what for"-- anything aside from aesthetics? Personally, I do think that's about the sum of it: some people think it's attractive and/or increases a horse's value. I don't. To me, brands are deliberately inflicted scars reminiscent of cattle branding and therefore degrading. If I'm spending the money for high class breeding productive of a beautiful animal, the last thing I'm going to do is allow someone to scar that animal's beautiful, sleek hide. Because the injury is comparatively minimal, I wouldn't go to war over it with those who think and feel differently, but I am glad that many registries have made branding a matter of choice and some European countries have banned it.

When it comes to trying to assess the degree of a fellow creature's pain, it makes sense to me to try to error in the direction of kindness.

[tri]

I thought it was for identity.

[Daydream Believer]

Because the injury is comparatively minimal, I wouldn't go to war over it with those who think and feel differently, but I am glad that many registries have made branding a matter of choice and some European countries have banned it.

When it comes to trying to assess the degree of a fellow creature's pain, it makes sense to me to try to error in the direction of kindness.

Well said. I 'm very glad my breed has no such requirements nor is it fashionable to scar them permanently with a brand. I know how bad a burn hurts personally...no way will I do that to an animal intentionally for cosmetic purposes.

On docking tails...I once assisted the vet in docking one of my litters of JRT puppies' tails. OMG..it was horrible...they screamed and writhed and cried. :-( The babies whimpered for hours later too. I was literally shaking and near tears by the time it was done. I swore off tail docking at that point also and I will never forget the distress those puppies were in caused by me trying to adhere to a breed fashion.

[not again]

Not too long ago a European event rider contacted an American registry about the strange brand on his event horse. If it were not for the brand he would never have known the true origins, pedigree, or birth registry of his very successful horse. And it changed the horse's status in the eyes of the WBFSH, and has given appropriate credit to both the registry and the breeder.;)

[can't re-]

I don't see brands as fashionable. I do find them very useful. I've had horses branded and none did more than a little scoot.

I bought a mare from my neighbor. I was told she had been a jumper in the Pan Am Games. No papers, no name. I rode the mare and you could tell she was quality. She could leap over the standards. I purchased her and proceeded to try to find out who the mare was. Luckily, she was branded and I was able to track down her history. I would never have been able to get her papers and have her approved MMB.

The best thing about finding out who she was, was getting her show record. While she wasn't in the Pan Am Games the mare was an International Grand Prix jumper - she won World Cup classes and was 1-3rd in over 50 Grand Prixs....she also excelled at 6 bar classes. What a shame it would have been had I not been able to find that out. I was even able to track down pics of her showing once I had her name.

[fish]

I thought it was for identity.


If it were for identity, I would think that a microchip, or some mark indicating reg. # would be a whole lot more effective than a registry brand-- and would, indeed, have some purpose justifying a little discomfort. As far as I can tell, however, tracking a WB with nothing to go on but the logo on his/her rump is hardly easy, and most people seem value the brand more as a designer label/advertising of the registry than a means of tracking ownership.

[Daydream Believer]

If it were for identity, I would think that a microchip, or some mark indicating reg. # would be a whole lot more effective than a registry brand-- and would, indeed, have some purpose justifying a little discomfort. As far as I can tell, however, tracking a WB with nothing to go on but the logo on his/her rump is hardly easy, and most people seem value the brand more as a designer label/advertising of the registry than a means of tracking ownership.

Also...branding for identication is best done with the freeze brand style like the Arabs and BLM uses. It is an angle code, impossible to change and identifies each horse down to an individual. It is usually done under the mane on the neck. I had a BLM horse and I got used to it pretty soon to where I hardly noticed it.

Freeze branding also is not as painful as a hot brand.

[Rocky XVI]

I feel the same way. Last year I took my mare to be inspected, the branding was scheduled for later in the day. The mare behaved perfectly during the inspection even though we had to leave her non weaned baby at home (this was an overnight trip).
I watched when they started branding the other horses and did not like what I saw. Two horses took off, dragging handlers with them. I opted out, did not think it was right to inflict pain on my horse and punish her for having been a good girl !

Last summer we had my daughter's mare studbook-approved with the KWPN and also declined to have her branded.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against the act of branding, as it has its purposes, but after watching the reaction of the other mares, my daughter and I thought it safer for all of us, including the brander, to decline the procedure. ;) My daughter also felt that the mare, who is a big Diva and exits the ingate at shows looking for her treat, should not get what we felt was punishment for having performed well that day. I think it is different with foals, they probably forget it soon after it is over, but I don't think our mare, who goes into a blue funk if her ingate treat is forgotten, would have EVER forgiven us. :p

My daughter and I are obviously just a pair of branding woosies. :D :D :D

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have seen one horse freeze branded, and hundreds hot branded. The freeze branded horse was sedated, and it was nothng to put on. HOWEVER, for 3 weeks after, it was swollen, raw skin, and painful.

The hot brands, I do believe hurt, but only for a second until it deadens the nerve. If you hold a baby so that he is facing into mom's body, it will makes sure you get a good brand. He will jump just a bit, like he was bitten by a fly. If done right, the handler or the brander will place their bidies so the baby can't see what is about to happen. The brander puts it on firmly to get a good brand, and needs just a second of "still". Nosing him into mom seems to get you that second.

I was at one European inspection that 4 out of 5 brands were messed up. I have never seen another messed up, but that brander was obviously not good at his job. He had smears, 1/2 brands, that had to be redone, and double images. MINE was the only good one. My farrier was standing there watching what was happening, and he saw me get big eyed. WE then decided where to hold MY foal. Nosing him into the mare, and against a building. I had the baby in front, and my farrier tailed him for the brander. THANK-YOU ED!!

After a hot brand, you can walk the foal out of the area (10 yards away), stop him, and stroke down his neck, barrel and body, back to the brand, and immediately rub on it and the foal will not react. I take the long approach to get there so there is not a reaction just to a sudden repeat touch in that area.

I saw a vet try to tranq her foal for the hot branding. The foal reared at the injection, and fell over backwards, hitting its head on the bumper of a truck. My mare was standing over the foal, and thankfully was a great mom, and didn't move. I have never seen that kind of reaction to the branding.

When the nerve is deadened, it will be fine about the time the brand heals. The key to the brand is to NOT mess with it. I know in every other wound with horses you need to pick off the scab, but not with branding. No ointment, nothing.

[Ghazzu]

I bought a mare from my neighbor. I was told she had been a jumper in the Pan Am Games. No papers, no name. I rode the mare and you could tell she was quality. She could leap over the standards. I purchased her and proceeded to try to find out who the mare was. Luckily, she was branded and I was able to track down her history. I would never have been able to get her papers and have her approved MMB.

A microchip might have yielded the same result.

[MunchingonHay]

I have watched that video several times and I dont think that the brand even touched the horse. The guy was moving WAY to slowly and if you watch the smoke it should bellow when it hits the skin/hair and it doesnt.

If you are worryed about hurting your horse, just TQ him for the branding. When I worked at an adalusian farm we had the babies inspected, and in the winter time when there were no flies, gelded and branded on the same day. The boys were knocked out cold and were none the wiser.

[tri]

I've seen bigger reactions from a horse fly bite than to branding. For that matter, I've seen bigger reactions to a tap with a dressage whip.

Branding isn't the same thing as burning yourself cooking - apples to oranges.

[Fairview Horse Center]

A microchip might have yielded the same result.

Funny, but I am ok with branding, but my papers came one year from OLD VB with a microchip attached, and I said no way. I sold him on with the microchip still attached to the papers, and I believe that is they way they are today. He is now 10. :winkgrin:

[Ajierene]

On docking tails...I once assisted the vet in docking one of my litters of JRT puppies' tails. OMG..it was horrible...they screamed and writhed and cried. :-( The babies whimpered for hours later too. I was literally shaking and near tears by the time it was done. I swore off tail docking at that point also and I will never forget the distress those puppies were in caused by me trying to adhere to a breed fashion.

Wow.

When we docked the lambs, the jumped a bit, calmed down almost immediately. We picked them up at days old, docked the tails and put them back in the pen where they went right to nursing or whatever they were doing. None bleated, none cried or showed any discomfort.

I know we were told you have to make sure you get them between the vertebrae and the device we used to dock them was hot and cauterized the wound immediately.

Not sure how your vet did it - but does not sound right - might be some new 'more humane' way that he was required to use as a vet...

As far as uses for branding, people in Australia mention that branding is required for all registered horses because horse theft is so prevalent. Branding for identification is useful, but putting on a Verband without anything that identifies the individual horse makes personal identification more difficult.

[Daydream Believer]

Branding isn't the same thing as burning yourself cooking - apples to oranges.

In case this was directed at me...I burned myself with a hot iron stove lid...like the ones on the old woodburning stoves. It was probably a lot like a branding iron and I have a scar across my hand where it fell off the handle and landed edge down on my fingers while I was putting wood on the fire. My hand was pinned in the opening until I was able to get the handle back on it...several seconds at least. I had a third degree burn.

You all who think it doesn't hurt to be burned enough to scar really should try it sometime. ;)

[Daydream Believer]

Wow.

When we docked the lambs, the jumped a bit, calmed down almost immediately. We picked them up at days old, docked the tails and put them back in the pen where they went right to nursing or whatever they were doing. None bleated, none cried or showed any discomfort.

I know we were told you have to make sure you get them between the vertebrae and the device we used to dock them was hot and cauterized the wound immediately.

Not sure how your vet did it - but does not sound right - might be some new 'more humane' way that he was required to use as a vet...

As far as uses for branding, people in Australia mention that branding is required for all registered horses because horse theft is so prevalent. Branding for identification is useful, but putting on a Verband without anything that identifies the individual horse makes personal identification more difficult.

He used a cutting tool and cut between the vertebrae and then he stitched the stumps up. The cried and fought the whole time. I had been told that "they barely notice it..." and while I doubt they remember it, it was very painful and traumatic. I am glad docking is banned in Europe and hopefully will be here at some point.

[Ajierene]

Daydream believer - that does sound painful. And it is much different than what is done with lambs.

[tri]

That does sound painful but I still don't think it has anything to do with branding a horse. Was the lid red?

[buschkn]

I had my colt branded and I do think it hurt him, for about a second. The brand was not on there more than 1-2 seconds and he was literally COMPLETELY fine right after. I ran my hand over it pretty much right away and no reaction at all. Injections hurt for a second, too, and I immunize my horses and give them IV meds if they need them, etc. The horses I have had gelded surely did not appreciate me for it.

But the branding was forgotten as soon as the iron came off. He jumped forward and that was it. I have been burned, and take care of people who are burned all the time. Actually in humans 3rd degree burns (usu what is req to have scarring) generally do not hurt to touch, though I am sure it hurts to happen. 2nd degree is very painful and most people with 3rd will have areas of 2nd as well, thereby making burns very painful. So perhaps the brand is 3rd degree, or horses have a different skin makeup than we do?

Either way, I know I would not hesitate to brand a baby again in the future. It does make sense that it will help with recognition. I go to a local auction occasionally, and I always look for brands and lip tattoos.

[Donella]

Thanks again for all the responses.

As for the tail docking...ahh, if they are done young enough, they really shouldn't react at all. It is supposed to be done like a few hours after birth though. Gross.

Also, I took an animal welfare course as an option in Uni. We have a really strong Ag base here so alot of farmers ect. We actually had an ethologist come in and speak to us about how they measure stress response, cortisol levels ect and of all the things they do to livestock, trailering elicits the most stress (now, don't forget, cattle are not usually handled, so its the whole thing involved in transport). Anyways, they also found that freeze branding IS more stressfull than hot branding. In cattle at least. I am sure handling though has alot to do with it, whereas with horses, we usually don't have that as an added stressor.

The story about the jumping mare is super cool too:yes:

[dressagetraks]

I was severely burned last year in a horse-related accident, stripped all 8 fingers, 3rd degree rope burns. Still extensive scarring, nerve damage. They were bandaged for months. Nothing in my life has ever hurt like that.

Knowing the wimpiness of the horse I had branded, seeing his reactions that day, working with him just after, and even seeing and feeling the completed brand later compared to my own much deeper scars now - there is no way they were comparable experiences. He did not feel anything like this. That particular horse would not have been stoic about it.

[CenturyOak]

Also...branding for identication is best done with the freeze brand style like the Arabs and BLM uses. It is an angle code, impossible to change and identifies each horse down to an individual. It is usually done under the mane on the neck. I had a BLM horse and I got used to it pretty soon to where I hardly noticed it.

Freeze branding also is not as painful as a hot brand.

The Alpha Angle System is available for all breeds, it's just more well known with Arabians and BLM Mustangs. It marks the horse with the breed symbol (if available for that breed), year of birth and either a registration number or an identification number that traces back to their registration number.

The problem with regular brands is that they are so hard sometimes to trace back... breed brands are a bit different but they can also be hard to trace if the horse isn't well known or hasn't been shown very much.

We typically have very little response from freeze marking or branding... I prefer a bit of white hair over a burned scar and it's alot more visible on colored horses as well as grey horses both. Either way though, you can't compare pain factor in humans for a burn or a freeze burn to a horse, their skin is so much thicker than a humans.. what will hurt you doesn't hurt them nearly as much. Mules are another story - we freeze mark horses at about 20 seconds, mules can take up to a minute for it to work - again thicker skin if that gives you any kind of analogy :)

[Daydream Believer]

Thanks again for all the responses.

As for the tail docking...ahh, if they are done young enough, they really shouldn't react at all. It is supposed to be done like a few hours after birth though.



These pups were about 2-3 days old. I honestly doubt it would have hurt them less if I'd have had a vet out to do them at 3 hours old. I am pretty sure that a couple days old is the standard time for docking dogs tails. No idea about livestock.

Tri...not red hot but damn close. I've seen hot brands used that weren't "red" hot either. Next inspection why don't you volunteer for a brand yourself and find out? :winkgrin:

Whatever...I really don't care what others do with their horses (short of serious abuse or neglect) but the idea that burning an animal with a hot iron does not hurt them is absurd. Horses are very stoic in general and hiding pain or weakness (from a predator) is hotwired into them instinctively. I just see no realistic reason to subject a horse to hot branding for fashion or cosmetic reasons and truly and honestly that is what a breed brand is.

[Elfe]

Whatever...I really don't care what others do with their horses (short of serious abuse or neglect) but the idea that burning an animal with a hot iron does not hurt them is absurd. Horses are very stoic in general and hiding pain or weakness (from a predator) is hotwired into them instinctively. I just see no realistic reason to subject a horse to hot branding for fashion or cosmetic reasons and truly and honestly that is what a breed brand is.

Well said, could not agree more.
Thank you.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Given the choice, I am sure many of mine would rather branding than mane pulling. :dead:

[Daydream Believer]

Given the choice, I am sure many of mine would rather branding than mane pulling. :dead:

Yes, probably true. I remember a few that were awful for it. Then I learned how to cut a mane and make it look pulled..much easier on everyone. Now I don't pull manes anymore! One advantage of a "natural" long maned breed! :yes:

[Ajierene]

Yes, probably true. I remember a few that were awful for it. Then I learned how to cut a mane and make it look pulled..much easier on everyone. Now I don't pull manes anymore! One advantage of a "natural" long maned breed! :yes:

Can you teach me that mane cutting trick? Both my mare and myself are against pulling!

[Daydream Believer]

Can you teach me that mane cutting trick? Both my mare and myself are against pulling!

Sure! Send me a pm and I'll try to describe it for you. It's really easy. :)

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have seen many things tried, but on a thick mane, it just never looks anywhere as nice as pulled, and braids just don't come out right, IMO.

[Touchstone Farm]

I don't hesitate to brand my foals. The reaction is minimal, never had a problem, and frankly, the other things in their life are much more stressful...As others said, I've had mine react more to regular vaccinations and seem more pissed off about worming than they ever were about branding. And on a daily basis, they are much more agitated about mosquitoes, flies, and a bullying horse. I think some people I are anthromorphisizing (misspelled, but too lazy to grab my dictionary) a bit on this topic...

[tri]

Daydream Believer, just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean that you have to get nasty.

There are actually quite a few "humans" that volunteer to get branded - think some of the fraternities that brand - SOME BIG WELL CONNECTED, POWERFUL FRATERNITIES. Even with the human's less thick skin, they will all tell you that it wasn't that big of a deal. You can not compare an accidental burn with a proper branding, either human or animal, it is a different thing.

[Daydream Believer]

Daydream Believer, just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean that you have to get nasty.

There are actually quite a few "humans" that volunteer to get branded - think some of the fraternities that brand - SOME BIG WELL CONNECTED, POWERFUL FRATERNITIES. Even with the human's less thick skin, they will all tell you that it wasn't that big of a deal. You can not compare an accidental burn with a proper branding, either human or animal, it is a different thing.

Sorry...I didn't mean to come across as nasty...a little snarky or sarcastic maybe but there is a difference. :) If branding is so minimal for discomfort and pain...why isn't it a major fashion statement to get one? People pierce themselves with jewelry and get tatoos...why not brands? I don't see people lining up for them.

[onwego]

What hurts about 3rd degree burns is not the 3rd degree part, it is typically the 2nd degree burns that accompany the burn around the edge and sometimes throughout a large burn. A 3rd degree burn or full thickness burn damages the nerves so that there is no pain in that area. 2nd degree or partial thickness burns are the ones that are typically so painful. If the branding is done correctly, then it should only be a full thickness burn and because of the hot iron, it should not have any partial thickness burns associated with it. Is it always done correctly?? nope... So technically looking at the science of it, if it is done correctly it shouldn't hurt the horse.

[tri]

Daydream, I think I just posted an example of people who ARE lining up to get them - they are very prestigious and worn with great pride.

[eqrider1234]

Can you teach me that mane cutting trick? Both my mare and myself are against pulling!

my trainer just recently bought a pull comb that looks like a pocket knife, when you unfold it it looks the same but there are little razors up in there, so you take it to the bottom of the mane, and it slices it right off! it looks exactly the same as pulling since its a razor and it doesnt cut it evenly i guess? worked miracles for my last horse she had a sorta thin mane that i didnt like to pull.

[gubbyz]

I have a question, all this talk about being able to ID a horse from a brand, do "breed" brands have an individual number for each horse? I have only seen the standard warmblood brands that are the same on every horse.

[Beasmom]

My Hannoverian has a "19" below his breed brand. A friend thinks that identifies the facility he came from in Germany. Anyone know about that? Such a number would be another link in ID'ing a lost or "unknown" horse (say, at an auction barn...).

I would point out that brands are easily readable, whereas you can look at a horse and not know if he's microchipped or not...

[spacely]

Gubbyz, a lot of registries brand with part of the foal's registration number under the breed logo. My 2007 RPSI filly has an 82 under her brand which is a part of her registration number. I had a colt here over the winter who was branded the same day as my filly who has a 90 under his brand. He has a half brand as his sire is in Book II (recorded) & my filly has a full brand as her sire is fully approved (Book I). It does not mean the foal is of any less quality though.

[eqrider1234]

my mare has a 47 under her westphalian brand? i havent recieved her papers from previous owners, so if i ever hear back from them that they were lost wuold i be able to get new ones using this information heres a picture if it helps..

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee17/hanniethebestnannie/DSC_0792.jpg

[Daydream Believer]

Daydream, I think I just posted an example of people who ARE lining up to get them - they are very prestigious and worn with great pride.

:lol:

[Ghazzu]

I think some people I are anthromorphisizing (misspelled, but too lazy to grab my dictionary) a bit on this topic...

Ah, but the anthropomorphism door swings both ways on this thread :D.
People are saying that, since the horse doesn't react the way they would, that it must not hurt.

My personal view is that, physiologically speaking, horses have similar skin structure and innervation to ours. and they are sensitive enough to notice a fly landing on them.
So, does it hurt?
Yes, until, as has been pointed out above, the nerve endings are destroyed.

Do I think it's heinous to brand horses? No.
Do I think it's necessary ? No.
Would I brand mine? With the possible exception of the alpha angle freezemark for permanent ID, no.
Would I think less of someone who hot branded their stock? No.

[Tiki]

Freeze branding also is not as painful as a hot brand.Then why do they have to sedate them? And why is it swollen and raw and oozing and peeling for a long time afterwards?

There was a study done in Europe that I think compared hot and freeze branding because they were so sure that hot branding must be much worse. Their conclusion was the opposite. Freeze branding is much worse.

Only one of my many, many foals ever even jumped a bit. We hold the Mums facing the baby at an angle, so the baby is toward her and they just don't react. Mum reacts sometimes to the smell of burning hair. It's a non-event.

[tri]

People are saying that, since the horse doesn't react the way they would, that it must not hurt.

No, what we are saying is that the same horse reacts to other things much more violently such as a horse fly bite, a bee sting, pulling manes, spurs, dressage whip, etc and when we brand, the horse that reacts so violently to those kinds of things, barely blinks an eye when branded... so the logical person has to conclude that the branding isn't causing even close to the same discomfort.

[Fairview Horse Center]

No, what we are saying is that the same horse reacts to other things much more violently such as a horse fly bite, a bee sting, pulling manes, spurs, dressage whip, etc and when we brand, the horse that reacts so violently to those kinds of things, barely blinks an eye when branded... so the logical person has to conclude that the branding isn't causing even close to the same discomfort.

Exactly.

[eqsiu]

Next inspection why don't you volunteer for a brand yourself and find out? :winkgrin:



A bit off topic, but I wonder if they would brand a person? I would love to have my girl's brand tattooed on my left hip but that's not the best place for a tat. I bet a brand would be less altered by pregnancy, and I develop keloid scars so it would stand out nicely. Y'all can think I'm a wacko, it's okay. :lol:

[dressagetraks]

Precisely, Tri. My branded horse would flinch all over the place just at a minor cut, be absolutely 3-legged lame IMMEDIATELY at a tiny and non sharp stone (worse stones picked out of other horse's hooves after a trail ride, and they hadn't reacted), and he would turn cartwheels at a horse fly, and barely noticed his brand.

[Fairview Horse Center]

A bit off topic, but I wonder if they would brand a person? I would love to have my girl's brand tattooed on my left hip but that's not the best place for a tat. I bet a brand would be less altered by pregnancy, and I develop keloid scars so it would stand out nicely. Y'all can think I'm a wacko, it's okay. :lol:

If you google human branding on videos, you will find a lot of wackos.

Here is one. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7512252288881517644&q=human+branding&ei=94d7SPWsJ4WqrwLAp52bCA&hl=en

[Joanne]

They talk about the human branding Tri refers to on this page (fraternities).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branding_persons

[kookicat]

As an aside, we typically don't tranq horses here for a freeze mark (brand). All of mine are done, and they didn't seem bothered about it. My young mare is also microchipped, and the vet warned me that it could move and be hard to find.

[Fairview Horse Center]

As an aside, we typically don't tranq horses here for a freeze mark (brand).

They may not tranq, but they do inject a local to make the area numb. Does it swell? Can you rub the area the next day without any reaction?

[Daydream Believer]

They talk about the human branding Tri refers to on this page (fraternities).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branding_persons

It also says our illustrious President supposedly did the same in college. That tells me all I need to know about Frat boys and their judgment! :lol: It also mentions the severe social pressure to comply voluntarily (and probably fib about how much it hurt too..not "manly" to show pain) and how in the past human branding was done for punishment due to it's painfulness, shame for committing a crime, as well as to mark property...the same concept as with horses.

Thanks for the posting the link. That was entertaining. I needed a laugh!

[SilverMare]

Sorry...I didn't mean to come across as nasty...a little snarky or sarcastic maybe but there is a difference. :) If branding is so minimal for discomfort and pain...why isn't it a major fashion statement to get one? People pierce themselves with jewelry and get tatoos...why not brands? I don't see people lining up for them.

I believe there is a form of 'tattoo' where people have their skin stripped off into a design. Can't remember the exact name for it. It's not burned, but stripped.

Our lambs had their tail docked for health purposes. It can get pretty disgusting back there even if looked after carefully, they could easily get an infection. Mine always cried more when they were weaned or banded than when their tails were docked.

As for the dogs, I don't know. All of our dogs were rescues, two out of three have docked tails. They've never been sensitive about it. I've only seen it done once on a puppy when volunteering at a vet clinic. He was out cold and was getting something else (don't remember) done to him. I didn't see him when he woke up. I must admit I'm not a fan of ear cutting, but again, am not too educated on that subject.

[hansiska]

A bit off topic, but I wonder if they would brand a person? I would love to have my girl's brand tattooed on my left hip but that's not the best place for a tat. I bet a brand would be less altered by pregnancy, and I develop keloid scars so it would stand out nicely. Y'all can think I'm a wacko, it's okay. :lol:

I know a hanoverian fan with an H "brand" -- the same H the horses get -- tattooed on her derriere. Meaty part of the left hip, to be precise. It seems fair, as I don't think tattoes are painless.
:)

Edited to add: I remember being quite nervous the first time I had a horse branded, then seeing it and realizing just how quick it is. I've definitely seen horses react more strongly to horseflies.

On the H-brand (and this may be true of other registries), Gerd Zuther once told me that it's important to have the horse branded as a foal because the brand itself is sized for a foal; it's smaller than the brand that's visible on an adult horse because the brand "grows" as the horse grows. If you were to brand an older horse, you would get a smaller, less visible brand. Also, the AHS has just changed the US brand. It will be just the H, not the H with "US" below it, so, starting this year, the brand itself is smaller and will match the brand used in Europe.

[Equine Obsession]

For me, I feel like my QH's brand would help in the event that he needed to be identified and it deters theft because of it.

As others say, they react less to branding than many other things we put them through. I have never branded a horse, but do not feel sorry for mine for having been branded in the past.

[Daydream Believer]

Maybe they react more strongly to a horse fly or other uncomfortable more routine things like mane pulling because they have learned it hurts...and we do it over and over to them? How often is a horse branded in it's life? Once? I guess that argument to me, doesn't hold much water. I've seen them branded and while there was a moment's hesitation after the brand went on and it started to sizzle, they did react quickly and sharply by wheeling away and looking anxious and concerned. I think it is anthromorphization also to expect that a horse would react to pain the same as we do and since they don't, it must not hurt them. They can't talk so they can't tell us.

[RioTex]

Have only had one branded, but she stood stock still without a flinch. When they pulled out a couple of tail hairs for the DNA profile, she tried to take their heads off. My assessment, she did not find the branding to be particularly noteworthy.

[Nootka]

I actually got a brand on myself when I was younger, (I thougth it was cool!), It did not hurt me at all!!! I cannot think that it would hurt a horse worse than me.

No, Im not wierd, mostly normal. I'm kinda pround of it.

i didnt brand myself but i did rub up aganist my sister's iron stove fire place. It did not hurt at all. It was hot enough to melt my skin though.:eek: I still have the scar.

[kookicat]

They may not tranq, but they do inject a local to make the area numb. Does it swell? Can you rub the area the next day without any reaction?

I could be wrong (it was a while ago) but I'm sure Rue wasn't numbed for his. I can only speak for him, as both the mares already had theirs when I bought them. He didn't really react at all. It did swell a bit. I could touch it the next day without getting a reaction. I didn't ride for a week after (it's on his back) to give the swelling chance to go totally.

[flshgordon]

When my filly was branded @6mo old, I was terrified. She didn't even flinch, flick her tail, or bat an eyelash.....should have known then that I would need a whip and spurs with this girl :winkgrin:

[cloudyandcallie]

I bought my Hessen as an adult, and he had been branded at 8 mos at his keuring in Germany. His brand has part of his life number on it for identification. I think this does help protect horses if they are stolen. If I were having mine branded, I'd have a local done first.
I had my boy microchipped, and wasn't there, and the vet got the chip too low and as the barn workers said, "harpooned" Cloudy. He's still sensitive, 7 years later, on that part of his mane. I should have left instructions to have him given a local.
So if you are as wussie as I am, see if you can have your foals injected with a local in that area.
My horse is not afraid of the smell of burniing horse (him) and smoke since they hotshod him in Germany , he is routinely hotshod by his farrier (who tries to cover his eyes) and he will even stand in hot coals if he can. (so I worry about his not having any fear of fire)
congradulations on being a vegetarian, we should all be.
and see if you can administer a local, then the foals won't feel any branding, and you can be sure that any reaction is from smoke and smell.

[lassoch]

My horse seriously did not even notice when he was branded. I was standing in front of him holding a carrot and the entire time he did not blink, twitch or break eye contact from his snack. When they took it off, he sort of peered back briefly like, "Oh....my butt's never done this smoking trick before!" And then he turned back around and started begging for the carrot again. To say that he was in some sort of agony or mental trauma would be way off the mark. :lol:

[Beasmom]

"Congratulations on being a vegetarian. We should all be."

WTF? This is the USA. We can eat beef or chicken or fish or pork or veggie burgers, if that's what you like.

"We should all be?" Give me a break! Then we'd not only be overrun with feral horses, but cows, pigs, sheep and poultry. You sorts are unreal.

OK, back to your regular programming...

Oh, yeah -- put a brand on everything.

[avezan]

I was hesitant about branding my first foal. But as I watched, I was amazed that NONE of the foals had a reaction that was more than a jump forward. A few years later, I had a 2 year old inpsected. Again, I was nervous, because he was the sort that didn't like things "done" to him. A little nervous in new situations. We had 3 people standing with him "in case" he decided to bolt after wards or act up. He didn't bat an eye. I think that anyone who is hesitant about branding or who thinks branding hurts the horse, should go watch a GOOD brander brand horses. The burn is not comparable to what you get if you burn yourself on the stove. I know at least one person who accidently branded himself, and he confirmed that it did not hurt! I also read about the study in Europe that found that freeze branding was more painful with more complications than hot branding. I've also read about many difficulties with mirco-chipping. So, with all the practices that we humans inflict on horses that cause pain and suffering - I consider hot branding to be NOT one of them. :)

[maggiecat]

Hi,

I have branded my foals all these years. I think there is one very practical reason to do it: There are still horse thieves out there (the net posse bulletins are a good example). In fact, an expensive warmblood stallion was stolen this year in Bellingham, Washington, pretty near me...

If there is a horse thief, whether a randow low-life or some one who is known and creapy (I can think of some recent example in my area involving a professional)-- a horse thief is going to walk past a branded horse. A branded horse is harder to move, or take to a sale, or across a border. So I think the brand is some protection for the horse, as well as for the owner. Like in the old days, the brand proclaims ownership and must be mentioned on a bill of sale (Washington state requires a brand inspection to move horses, even though not always followed by the locals).

[Donella]

Then we'd not only be overrun with feral horses, but cows, pigs, sheep and poultry. You sorts are unreal.

LOL..not really, they just wouldn't be bred anymore. But anyways, thats not the point of this thread. I was just saying it because I feel like a total hypocrite with the branding. However, I do feel alot better now after so many reassuring responses. It looks like now though, that they will not be branded until September...I am now imagining trying to restrain these little giants??!:confused:

[Oldenburg Mom]

Just thought I'd resurrect this thread, as I had my new foal branded at the BWP inspection.

It was quite an education.

First, the branding iron was red hot. Second, baby was right next to Mama, did not appear to be afraid. The brander was one of the inspectors from Belgium. He very very carefully lined up the brand, then touched the foal for a fraction of a second.

Baby had virtually ZERO reaction...none...nada. I was ***very*** surprised. He objected more when he had his hair pulled for DNA. He walked away, no limping, no notice of the brand, ... no turning around to look, or to nose (as if there were a fly.)

I really was extremely surprised there was zero reaction. The worst thing about the entire process? The stinky smell of burnt hair.

And, if the horse should ever fall on hard times and end up skinny and dirty on an auction lot, the brand will tell a horseman that thought and an approval process was put into the breeding of this animal, and this horse may be worth a closer look. I had deliberated about this for some time ... whether to or not ... and finally decided to go for it specifically for this reason. Thanks ahf.

[Tiki]

I've seen them branded and while there was a moment's hesitation after the brand went on and it started to sizzle, they did react quickly and sharply by wheeling away and looking anxious and concerned.Of all the foals I've had branded (quite a number of them) I have NEVER seen this reaction. I have seen someone else's foal jump on a very rare occassion. It is NOT a big deal.

[LetItBe]

I was there when my horse was branded at 5 years old for the KWPN inspection. He stood like a rock and could have cared less about the hot branding. Now the barn we were supposed to walk through after getting branded? That was an issue for him and he lived in a H/J show barn!:lol:

LetItBe

[Elfe]

Having come across a few threads on this board and others about mystery horses with brands,
it seems to me that as a means of identification branding is not the best.
Also, if you read the thread below, it appears that sometimes the brand isn't even visible at auction time:
http://www.atrakehner.com/yabbs/index.php?topic=2448.0

Has anybody had experience with identifying horses via microchip ?
Thanks.