Fun with Videos.... [Archive]

ThirdCharm

Jul. 7, 2008, 01:06 PM

Critiques are welcome, as long as people play nice. :-) I wish I had videos of me jumping someone ELSE big, just for comparison.... this horse really is hard to follow, so not the most flattering. (As in, Seriously Big Name Clinicians are like "Well, I don't know what to say as far as how to ride her jump."). The only other jumping video (recent, anyway) I have is me jumping my greenie novice horse, and you can only really see the first jump well enough to tell anything: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ONsUBI6ZSxQ But you can tell she has a much easier jump!

This mare jumps and 'snaps' so hard, I have to really land in a defensive position (literally, my trainer tells me to pretend I am jumping into water even at 4'). I hate the way it looks, but its how she goes best. I'm much happier nowadays with our approach, takeoff, and 'in the air' (thank god for neckstraps).

Jennifer

Pixie Dust

Jul. 7, 2008, 01:16 PM

What is that mare's background? I was down at Denny's over New Year's 06 to 07 and you were there. I can't remember what horse you were riding except that it was a bay mare. (You are easy to recognize with your ponytail!)

ThirdCharm

Jul. 7, 2008, 01:42 PM

Background:
Hanoverian (11/16 TB tho), started w/t/c at six and sold to a dressage rider after 2 hr. trail ride as a tryout. Put new owner in ER with a punctured lung on the very first ride at home with a vicious buck the minute she put a foot in the stirrup. New owner struggled for about a year, sending horse to various trainers, including a cowboy who threw horse to the ground any time she offered to buck. I was trainer four or so, started her jumping, horse and I got on and I thought I could fix the bucking with chiro, saddle fit, and ulcer meds, so I ended up buying the her. Took three years of all of the above to remove the bucking response, but now she is very businesslike even at shows and is a really fun ride. She is competing at Preliminary, dressage and xc good, sj still working on as you can see!

That would have been my ISH Spirit that I was riding at Denny's at new years last year, I think. http://thirdcharmtrainingcenter.com/SiteImages/Spiritxcark.JPG (now there is a horse that is easy to sit over a jump, smooth as glass even at 4')
I think I only brought one horse, and then my students rode her dam, Greta.

Jennifer

wanderlust

Jul. 7, 2008, 02:05 PM

Neat horse, tons of jump. :-) Not a critique, just an observation- it *does* look like you are riding a drop, which is causing you to open/unfold early then get jarred on landing.

I have a guy who "pings" off the ground hard, then flips his hind legs in the air, so I get pushed back, then pushed forward. The best way I have come up with to stay with him is to push my feet and arms forward on takeoff. That keeps my butt back and centered over the saddle, landing in my heels, and then allows me to land and be ready to turn. Just an idea to try- those scopey ones can be HARD to stay with!

Badger

Jul. 7, 2008, 02:14 PM

This mare jumps and 'snaps' so hard, I have to really land in a defensive position

This is exactly the issue I wanted to talk about, because it's something I'm working on myself. I have plenty of good defensive habits that are appropriate for certain terrain issue or green horse efforts, etc., but that shouldn't be used at other times. However, I find myself sometimes "jack-knifing" on landing...opening the upper body angle and the leg angle up too soon. One of the consequences is that it puts me out of position if there is anything coming up quicky in a combination it's a challenge...I have to get back into position until I can ride effectively. And I think your style on this mare shows the sort of thing I'm trying to address in my own riding. Staying more into the tack through the landing leaves me more effective in the strides immediately after the jump.

It's interesting that you mention riding as if you are jumping into water. Someone here posted a great shot of Mark Todd jumping into advanced (?) water on Gandolf, and his position is so much more "in the tack" and secure than the jack-knifing one, that I printed it out to inspire me as I try to improve my landings. I just went back and found it on the Mark Todd comeback thread:

http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e116/Equinesnapz/Arran%20Station/DSCF9138.jpg

So if this is how the creme de la creme does it over a solid fence into water, it's worth imulating surely in our stadium rounds in flat terrain over fences that fall down. Staying more with the horse and in the tack means the horse doesn't have his balance interrupted as much, and doesn't risk hands coming up and popping the bit, or weight coming back into the saddle and resulting in a pulled rail behind.

ThirdCharm

Jul. 7, 2008, 02:51 PM

Another BNT this year suggested that I think about opening my hip angle and bringing my hip forward on landing, which does seem to help.... really it is the same idea as jumping off a drop, but somehow thinking of it that way makes it work better. But the snap can still be rough!

One thing that has helped (recently) is doing a lot of work on making HER more responsible for her balance after a fence, lots of jump WHOA jump TURN.... so that she comes up on her own more, I can stay a bit more forward, without worrying about her barrelling along...

Jennifer

MustangSally00

Jul. 7, 2008, 02:56 PM

I'm not sure I follow the logic of riding a regular fence in a field as a drop and subsequenty how that would help with a horse that jumps hard. It seems like the only thing that would acomplish is a sore back for the horse and a sore bum for you.

A lot of the really good hunters and jumpers out there jump plenty hard and their riders stay with them because sitting up sharply on the back side of the fence will greatly increase the incidence of the horse's hind end dropping rails. In addition, giving a horse a nice flowing fence where they aren't being hindered is a big reward.

I would really highly suggest learning to stay with your horse. More core strength will help as well as grabbing some mane for the time being. Staying with the horse over the fence will also eliminate the need for you to slide your reins over every fence (not so effective in stadium phase). Also, your stirrups look a bit long for the size of the fences. Shortening them a hole or two will help with your balance and staying off of the horse's back in the air.

I hope none of this came off as me trying to tear you down, because you look like a very capable rider. Just some suggestions for a more polished and effective ride.

Goodl luck.

fooler

Jul. 7, 2008, 03:41 PM

OK - Denny must have sprinkled the magic dust so Livi looked a quiet jumping horse. This is not normal for the mare. She likes to "power" over a fence, then snap her back in mid-air. None of which is easy to follow. Wish you could see how she used to jump and compare to this video.

Jennifer's position has modified as she has worked with the mare over these past 3 years. What you see in the video is the most current version that will change as Livi develops a more orthodox jump.

I understand the comments about big jumping horses, not unusual. I have one at home and she will rocket you out of the saddle.

Now put that big jump with a mid-air back snap - that will wake you up!

ThirdCharm

Jul. 7, 2008, 05:48 PM

Riding a drop fence should not involve sitting on the horse's back, so should not result in a sore back, sore butt, or dropped rails. If properly executed, hah hah.

Agreed a lot of the big jumpers jump plenty hard... they are also not horses that want to lope along on their front end and then blast off over the fence and snap the hind end. Something my trainer has commented on REPEATEDLY, believe me! I assume my trainer is taking this into account when he tells me how to ride her unusual jumping style. If she was a more impulsive, uphill horse in the ring, she would be quite easy to ride (xc wakes her up and is easy as pie!). When she is being forward and more 'responsible' for her own balance on the landings, I am more than happy to stay forward on landing. As noted we are working on that so I don't have to land so defensively. She is a weird ride, for sure. I really wish I had video of her from when she was going, say, Novice, to compare!

Jennifer

Jleegriffith

Jul. 7, 2008, 08:52 PM

Are you getting around clean in stadium?

Watching the video I see a very kind horse who is tolerating some rider faults that would have some horses defensive and quitting. I think we have all ridden hard jumping horses whether it be horses that jump up and crack their backs or flip their hind ends and you don't want to open up early and push yourself backwards off of their mouth. ?When you open up early your legs are braced and your hands come up which results in an inverted jumping style. I think any good h/j trainer would have you working on landing centered over you feet into your knee, ankle and heel to absorb the motion of the jump. You should stay in your position until the horse touches down and begins to canter off especially when there are no immediate turns coming up which there are not in this video. I like your horse and she seems very capable of jumping this height especially when given some more freedom. I bet she would use herself even better if she knew she didn't have to guard herself against the rider opening up early.

Heck I got reminded often enough in my lesson this week to soften in front of the jump and follow the motion of the horse with my arms. You can still stay open with the hip angle but follow with the arms and land more into a bent knee instead of a straight knee.

I really am not trying to be criticial but if it happens over all the fences on the course than it is a position flaw worth looking at. I would also shorten the stirrups to better support your base and allow you to follow the motion over the fences. I love to watch videos of the really good jumper riders and work to be as smooth and as effective as they are in my stadium/jumper rides.

Good luck with her. Sure sounds like you have worked through a lot of issues.

ThirdCharm

Jul. 7, 2008, 09:59 PM

Exactly what we are working on, JLee, so glad you think so too. I have to laugh at the comment that she is "kind"..... a BNT said she was "polite" this spring at a clinic and I about fell off. There are, as I've mentioned, very good reasons I have developed this defensive habit I'm having to break. When I first got her, the words "explosive" and "difficult" were much more common, and not only when I was riding her.... two Advanced riders got on her and found the same (and did I mention the three trainers who gave up before me?). So I must be doing something right, I guess. We are usually double clear at jumper shows through 4', but at events we tend to have rails, usually in the combinations b/c she jumps in too big (past her distance) and neither of us is fit as we ought to be, though that is improving too.

Like I said, I really wish I had a video from, heck, a year ago even!

Jennifer

Badger

Jul. 7, 2008, 10:28 PM

Exactly what we are working on....There are, as I've mentioned, very good reasons I have developed this defensive habit I'm having to break.

Now I'm confused...earlier you said you were adopting this style on purpose, and now it's a defensive habit you are trying to break?

This mare jumps and 'snaps' so hard, I have to really land in a defensive position (literally, my trainer tells me to pretend I am jumping into water even at 4'). I hate the way it looks, but its how she goes best.

In my own case, the jack-knifing is definitely a defensive habit as well, and I've been working to recognize it and irradicate it. One thing that was explained to me is that being a tad behind the motion on the approach made me close a bit too much with my body over the top of the arc and then compensate by opening too much on landing. One thing I'm finding that helps is working on an automatic release, pushing hands down along the shoulder-blade rather than up the crest whereby I end up with high hands and long reins. Keeping my hands down requires less of a move with the body and arms, less of a balance shift that the horse has to compesate for, and requires a smaller position change on the backside of the jump as the horse's arc finishes. This whole issue isn't something I hear about much in lessons or clinics unless I bring it up myself, but when I see the pics crop up sometimes from competition I realize it's a habit that I want to eradicate. That defensive postion has a time and place, but not for every jump and rarely in stadium.

ThirdCharm

Jul. 7, 2008, 10:56 PM

Sorry, badger, I've been posting in between riding, shoeing, and running errands so my posts haven't been very complete (or coherent actually, it's been one of THOSE days)! The defensive position is a bit of both, quite frankly. It definitely served a purpose dealing with a horse that had a difficult jump AND a quirky mind and a nasty buck, but as I said I don't really like it (oh, and interestingly enough, I stay more forward and feel better balanced when I actually AM jumping into water!!! Go figure) but as her rideability improves I am able to work on riding her jump in a more conventional way in stadium. (She is actually more rideable on xc so I rarely find myself reverting to this style there! Maybe that is why we do better with actual water jumps than "imaginary" water jumps!)

Hopefully that makes sense.

Jennifer

Badger

Jul. 8, 2008, 11:29 AM

Thanks for clarifying. These defensive habits are often very good things to have in a tool box, and it can be tough work to replace them with more classical techiques. This reminds me of my first lesson with a favorite British eventer: he watched me ride for a while and said "Yeah, right then: I can see you have ridden a lot of green and problem horses* and have some excellent defensive techniques. Great. Keep them. But don't use them all the time. They'll be there when you need them. Let's get on with riding properly the majority of the time and know that your muscle memory will revert to the defensive on a moment's notice when the situation calls for it."

Course, that is MUCH easier said than done. The corrollary is that classic riding is classical because it is effective—good form is considered good because it results in good function. So as form improves, the riding often becomes easier, the horse more rideable, the jump smoother, etc.

[*starting more than a few OTTBs in the huntfield and whatnot]

ThirdCharm

Jul. 8, 2008, 11:35 AM

Yep, 'xactly. Hard to do, but its what we're all working on.

Jennifer

JER

Jul. 8, 2008, 12:05 PM

You have my sympathy. This is not an easy ride.

But why not grab mane? It does help you follow better with your body and you avoid hitting the mouth and opening up too early.

(I always grab mane. Makes life easier.)

ThirdCharm

Jul. 8, 2008, 01:29 PM

I haven't had to grab mane on anyone in so long that I was out of practice when I got Livi! But Livi has a really really thin, wispy mane so even when I tried it was an exercise in futility (that didn't help with the development of defensive riding habits either!). But I use a neckstrap now, which I am working on "keeping" through the landing now that she is not trying to run off/buck/etc after fences.

Jennifer

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jul. 8, 2008, 01:47 PM

Why not practice with the reins around the neck like Wofford showed you? That builds the body memory of keeping the hands quiet, or at least the rider gets punished instead of the horse if the hands fly around...

Badger

Jul. 8, 2008, 01:54 PM

Why not practice with the reins around the neck like Wofford showed you?

Would you elaborate on this? How are the reins put around the neck?

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jul. 8, 2008, 02:09 PM

There is a slick way someone on the ground can do it which involves getting all the excess rein in a long bight on the left of the horse, then fliping the bight back over the head and centering the buckle, but I do it infrequently enough that I can't describe it well.

The end product, though, can be achieved by unbuckling the reins, passing the right rein over the neck to the left, and the left rein to the right, then bucking them UNDER the neck. With the buckle centered under the neck, the rider can pick up the reins "normally" (right hand picks up right rein coming from right side of bit, left hand picks up left rein) The reins will be a little short, maybe, but makes an impression on your muscle memory.

The evil genius of this simple fix emerges when your hands try to fly up. Instead of flying up with no repercussion to the rider, they start to fly up but find themselves yanked on by the horses' neck, since the rest of the rein is safely anchored there. If you open your body while maintaining independent hands, no problem, no reminder jerk to your shoulders. It's sort of a mandatory neckstrap, since dropping the "neckstrap" means dropping the reins.

Badger, there is another version of this fix which helps promote a following hand once you're secure enough not to be put at risk by it. I'll send you a note about it - sounds like it might fit with what you've been working on.

NeverTime

Jul. 8, 2008, 02:38 PM

I think what Jeanette is talking about (I've not ridden w/Jimmy but I've had Eric Horgan do this to me) is unbuckling the reins and crossing/circling them around your horse's neck then rebuckling, so they are snugly wrapped about halfway down the neck, giving the horse plenty of freedom to move his/her head but very little slack for you, as the rider, to grab and move around. You can steer, but your hands, assuming they stay on the reins, are basically stuck to the horse's neck, preventing you from grabbing or pulling. It's a great exercise to get handsy people -- such as myself :rolleyes: -- used to the feel of keeping their hands quiet.

ThirdCharm, I remember a thread a while back where someone posted some very unflattering/scary pics of you jumping this mare at a show and you got pretty badly hammered by other folks for talking about moving up to intermediate. She looks like she's jumping much better in these pics, so good for you :yes:!

But remembering that, and in the context of all these safety discussions (I would agree with the people on that thread who were saying she did not looks safe in those particular pictures, probably a year or more old), I'm curious about what you, as a trainer, and what Denny, as your trainer, are thinking currently about moving this horse up to intermediate. This video, not that it's intended to prove her worthiness for the move-up, nonetheless looks like a brief glance at training-level mastery rather than intermediate competency, and your comments here indicate she still very much a work in progress. Is she progressing well enough that you and Denny are planning for the move-up in the near future, are you comfortable enough with her cross-country that you aren't too worried about stadium, are you involving Denny in the decision-making process, or have your plans for her changed?

Not pot-stirring. Honestly curious about how the safety discussion is playing out between a lower-level professional and a BNT, if you feel comfortable sharing.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jul. 8, 2008, 02:43 PM

Nevertime - yes, very concise and accurate translation of my description. Thanks! :)

ThirdCharm

Jul. 8, 2008, 03:23 PM

Jeanette-- The reins around the neck thing is a little scary unless you're in an enclosed ring. Esp on a horse that will jerk you right out of the tack (in which case it is let go of the reins or fall off over the head). I noticed Woff didn't do it to anyone at Wit's End last year, despite a couple folks who could have used it. (Thank god I wasn't riding Livi in that clinic). The neckstrap seems like a good compromise.

As far as plans for moving up to Intermediate, Denny set the criteria as "Jumping clear 4' courses ". Added by me, though no doubt intended by Denny: In good form. She can do the former, but not always the latter yet, and that will take a while yet! Obv. a Int. horse doesn't have to jump 4' height, but that gives you "fiddle room" taking into account the sheer mass of Int. fences including width, and a horse jumping in good form has much better chances of dealing with the odd bad spot. Her dressage is good (she's done Int. tests and scored in the 30s), and xc is good (at xc speed her jump 'smoothes out' and is much easier to ride).

NT--thanks, she is getting better, and more to come hopefully!

Jennifer

Jleegriffith

Jul. 8, 2008, 03:40 PM

Pixie Dust

Jul. 8, 2008, 04:01 PM

I didn't know about the Intermediate plan for her. I think just about any horse can jump 4' alone. What about combinations? I didn't see any in that video.

Jlee, those videos are awesome. Talk about bouncy horses. The riders make it look so easy. Wow!

fooler

Jul. 8, 2008, 04:28 PM

TC- I would suggest you take a look at this horse and his videos if you want to see a young horse with a hind end flip- http://www.fermebeaulieufarm.com/id83.htm I think Denny has some of his foals which is why I remember looking at the videos. If you watch in slow motion that rider has no trouble keeping the shoulders up and allow the hands to stay down and knees to bend so he can follow the motion. Even if a horse is silly on the backside of a fence you will create more issues by coming up to early. The video is fun to study. I am a huge video geek and like to watch all the videos I can get my hands.

All of us were subjected to weekly torture w/o reins and stirrups in ponyclub. I hated it but I do credit all the torture for giving me a solid base. A rider competing at the prelim level should be able to do this. If you lost a stirrup you are not going to be able to land successfully in the current position. I am still not following how the horse is jerking you out of the tack? Look at these grand prix jumpers, 4ft hunters and so forth. Those horses jump as hard as any horse does and the riders are able to land soft and organized. Do you feel as jerked forward over the smaller fences or do you think it's the steeper landings off the bigger fences? I know it takes me a while to get comfortable over the bigger fences since I ride the greenies most of the time.

Anyway you can email the video to some of your instructors and have them come up with some exercises to work on? I have taken pics/video and asked my instructors to comment and oftentimes it really helps to iron out any issues.

OK - I watched both videos. The rider's hands are buried in the horse's neck so they don't move, but I saw the rider 'collapse' on the backside of over 1/2 the fences. Yes the horse in the video has a big jump & really kicks out behind. This is different from Livi.

Livi has a hugh jump to begin with, which Jennifer follows well. Livi "USED TO" pop her back up mid-way over the fence.
This was a pop up of her back (under the saddle), not the hind-end as does the horse noted above.
That would explain the defensive position. Wrapping reins around the neck would not solve the horse's jumping form. Wrapping reins is good for some one like me who can be too fussy with my hands in front the fence. That is why Jimmy did wrapped my reins years ago.

Jennifer has worked with Livi on the flat, over gymnastics, had chirco & teeth work, treated ulcers. She has and is working with instructors to improve both Livi and herself. Maybe the video of them quietly jumping the 4' course is not impressive to you - but to me, who has seen the steady progression, it is.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jul. 8, 2008, 04:45 PM

Progress is good, and students putting together slo mo videos is sweet, and I'm sure Lainey is a very nice girl, ya know?? I know Jennifer is, don't think anyone will say otherwise.

But I generally go through the competition photos on-line after shows, and if I don't look at every photo on there, I look at lots and lots, because I am a nerd, and I learn a lot seeing what fences horses jump well, and what fences they seem surprised by, or casual about.

Jennifer and I go to a lot of the same shows -so I see a lot of her pictures. And it's true, the video assembles a fairly nice round for Jennifer and Bolivia. Progress is good. So is self awareness. Here's hoping for lots of both for all of us!

ThirdCharm

Jul. 8, 2008, 04:46 PM

I've seen Coolman jump and I'm not disagreeing that it's possible to sit that type of jump, and have mentioned a couple of times now, I think, that we're working on me being able to sit Livi's jump (which is a bit different in the type of snap) better. I recall the videos inspired quite a thread about the suitability of a horse that jumped like that for most riders since it is harder to ride.... but I think once you CAN sit that type of jump gracefully, you can ride about anything!

This horse is harder than most to sit over small fences, jumping hard over xrails most of the time, but not AS hard. I have three other horses at the barn currently that I've jumped 4' fairly often (one which I competed at Prelim a couple years ago, one I jumped 5'3" schooling and competed in Modified showjumpers), none of them are hard to follow at all at any height. I also agree it is probably possible to follow a hard-jumping horse with "behavior on landing issues" in a more graceful fashion.... but, at the time, the issues were sufficient that a defensive posture was advised and became a habit.

Pixie--Indeed, any horse can jump 4' over a single fence (well, almost... I have run into precisely ONE horse that was maxed out at 2'6", but he had SERIOUS conformation problems!) which is why the criteria is a _course_.

Jeanette--I love looking at photos, and whereas a year or so ago I'd look at stadium pix and find maybe two or three good ones, now I'll see one or two where I've fallen back into bad habits, and the rest look much improved.... a nice tool to check oneself, certainly.

Jennifer

saje

Jul. 8, 2008, 04:55 PM

I think my brains have melted from the heat today - but I'm not sure I understand what you mean about her being a "hard jumping" horse.

In watching the video all I see is a tendency to sort of stand back and fling herself at fences, nose first. Is that what you mean? Or is it that she really thrusts off the ground, or that she lands in a jarring fashion?

Sorry to be dense, but I like analysing these things :)

ThirdCharm

Jul. 8, 2008, 05:02 PM

I think fooler described it pretty well, I really do wish I had video of the way she used to jump because it would be interesting to pick apart. She's not really doing that in this video, though her form is not ideal (yet! :-) and is still a moderately hard jump, it is improved over the 'old' Livi.

Jennifer

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jul. 8, 2008, 05:10 PM

what do you suppose has changed that she used to jump clean if unorthodox at Training in 2005, and now she is much more likely to have at least a rail or more even at T?

ThirdCharm

Jul. 8, 2008, 07:14 PM

At the beginning of 2006, Livi was injured (mild SDF pull) that put her out for several months. Right after she came back to work (the clear SJ round at Novice in 2006!), I went back to college which put a bit of a kink in my riding time (and funds for lessons!). Now that I'm out of school we're back on track, hopefully!

Jennifer

tds

Jul. 8, 2008, 07:25 PM

I used to have a horse that I bought as a prospect who reminded me of the pictures and vids I have sen of this horse. He had everything it took to be an amazing jumper - he was slightly allergic to wood but didn't lose his cookies when things went wrong, was very ridable, although he had about the hardest bascule I've ever sat, and I'm not sure where the top of his scope was because I never found that place ... unfortunately I ultimately gave up on him as a horse who could jump big jumps because of a few key things:

1. He was an arm draping dangling fool and I choose life. I tried every trick in the book to get him to pick up his forearm, or failing that, to tuck up his lower leg. No can do. He just continued to overjump by a good margin, but you can't count on that philosophy as a starting point when jumps are big. At some point they are going to get into trouble in a technical element or they are going to be tired or they are going to be sore, and bad shit is going to happen, bad shit that is much less likely to happen if the horse has a front end you can rely on.

2. He just wouldn't seriously and consistently rock back because he could get away with the ol' heave ho at the fence and he never found one he couldn't get over doing just that. Now the net effect of that overjump and heave ho (never mind the bascule) was just about any rider getting knocked out of the tack on the backside. He was a very hard horse to ride correctly and you felt like you had to pick up defensive riding just to survive. Problem is, that is no way to ride a horse, it just makes the problem worse if you do it at height, because now you have a horse waiting for you to punish him with the aids, right?

Up to 3'0, I felt like he was a different horse - he still sucked in the form department, but as a scopey 17'2 hand monster, it was more out of step for him. Those jumps felt more ... survivable- the chances that he got into trouble where his form meant my death were considerably less likely. And maybe somebody better than I (no small amount of those types around) could have moved him off that form and unlocked his potential, but I wasn't that person and for damn sure I knew it was fool's work to jump a horse with that style over big fences. Call me crazy, but when they drape like that and heave themselves at the fence, I just think there are wiser choices to make with your life.

YMMV

*jumper*

Jul. 8, 2008, 07:37 PM

I figured I should add my input since I'm in a such a similar situation.

I agree that ThirdCharm is sitting up a bit soon, which may look ugly, but in this situation could be beneficial. My horse has different issues than this mare, but he essentially does just what she describes in that he snaps his back mid-air and will often land with his head between his knees, then spin to one side. Obviously, this leaves the rider a very small chance of staying on, and he did manage to get 4-5 of my trainers off multiple times. Because of this habit, I had to adopt a VERY defensive position in the air. It got so bad that some lessons I would barely break over before I'd snap back up again.

This didn't bug my horse too much since he has a super short neck and naturally jumps with his head tucked in, so he didn't really ever need a real release to use himself. It kept me safe, and eventually he stopped being silly.

However, that left me with a horrible position. I rode a few hunters and got out of the habit of being so snappy and upright, but whenever I get on my horse and he starts being silly, I revert back to my old form, which now pisses him off (he's just a bundle of joy, in case you haven't figured that out yet!!)

It really is a vicious circle. My horse is soooo difficult to ride, and once I'm on him I basically have to do everything in my power to give him a correct ride and keep myself safe--and that's not always the correct way to ride. It's a bummer, because I'm a real stickler for correct and effective equitation, and I hate that people might think I'm a horrible rider because it takes so much to really ride my horse.

Anyway, just wanted to share my perspective. It's good to know that there are others out there who have struggled with difficult horses but are making progress. :yes:

starboard

Jul. 9, 2008, 08:47 AM

Oy.
Glad to see some improvement, but I'll admit to always thinking "why not stay at novice" if this horse is "so difficult". If you both cannot manage to get over a show jumping course without scaring bystanders why venture into the upper levels?
If her jumping form isn't an example of what will soon end in tragedy, I don't know what is, and it's absolutely baffling that you refuse to see that fact. Even more baffling that the BNT's you ride with are allowing you to continue on at the level you're at, and even more so allowing or encouraging you to move up.
Powering through with a horse who is "difficult" and cannot jump in proper form isn't something to pat ones self on the back for, it's something that will get a person killed.

Jul. 9, 2008, 09:13 AM

I think one has to ask one's self:

What is riding this horse doing to better me as a rider, and a trainer?

Is riding this horse beneficial to my image as professional?

Is riding this horse damaging my riding skills and my image?

And these questions don't even begin to touch on the safety aspect.

magnolia73

Jul. 9, 2008, 09:29 AM

You know, I know that this has been a challenging horse and is only where she is due to rider determination, a lot of effort and some serious cajones.

Now this is a general question- but at what point do you "give up" or change focus with such an unconventional animal? In this case, the rider has had to sacrifice a more balanced position to stay with a hard jump. Would it have been a better route to attempt to change the horses jump vs the rider's ride? And what are the safety ramifications of these unconventional horses? The videos posted of the stallion with the big kick out- impressive, but holy crap- is that safe over a big jump? And so many of these less conventional, ultra hard horses seem to end up in eventing. Is the best place for them in a line of work that includes jumps that are unforgiving?

Lose That

Jul. 9, 2008, 03:22 PM

ThirdCharm

Jul. 9, 2008, 03:56 PM

Well, from a safety standpoint, I would rather be on this horse than any other horse I have ever ridden galloping up to a maxed out table, and that has held true from the first time I took her xc. When she was a nutcase in dressage and I was this close to selling her, after xc I would say to myself "Well, give her a couple more months". I would assume that my trainer is not worried about my safety and would say something if so, he certainly didn't hesitate to share his not-so-glowing opinion of another horse I rode in a lesson this spring!

What does she do for my image? Should I call my publicist? People who know this horse and have seen her at shows over the last five years up close and personal constantly come up to me at events and comment on her overall improvement. Showjumping is the last thing to catch up because it is the hardest thing for her, and for me. When it catches up, life will be good.

I suppose if my goal was simply to go Intermediate or make a name, I could just get an easier horse. Nothing wrong with this route, it is preferred by most ammies and indeed most 'pros'; but, my goal is to do the best I can with THIS horse, and learn everything I can from the experience. In fact I HAVE easier horses, but this is the horse that I reward myself by riding at the end of a long day. Heck, I even reward myself by doing DRESSAGE, and anyone who saw her do dressage five years ago would surely marvel at that! It isn't about the goal, it's about the journey.

Jennifer

magnolia73

Jul. 9, 2008, 04:00 PM

I even reward myself by doing DRESSAGE

Now if you start saying that dressage without stirrups is a reward, we might send you off to recuperate with Darren. :)

fooler

Jul. 9, 2008, 04:06 PM

It isn't about the goal, it's about the journey.

Jennifer

Another thread is about the horses that 'made' us. Often we remember those horses more fondly than the ones with whom we achieve our 'greatness'. Simply because they made us better both as horsemen and humans. . . .

foursocks

Jul. 9, 2008, 04:29 PM

Well (coming at this strictly from a sort of technical viewpoint, since I don't know rider or horse, I'm really just interested in the side issue of talent versus training): isn't form really, supremely important when the fences get bigger and the questions harder?

My own horse (a jumper) is the absolute most difficult beast I have ever ridden. At the same time, he is a natural jumper, and pretty much always gets over anything and everything with scope and style. Marry his difficult nature with a sketchy jumping form and I would not be on his back. As it is, the only place I can really trust him to not be an ass is in the air.

He jumps HARD and he jumps big. He cracks his back and sometimes kicks out and up behind in the air, just to make sure his precious toes don't touch anything. He lands hard and he likes to go fast. If there was any question in my mind about his form- i.e. an untidy leg or lack of bascule- I wouldn't trust him. In fact, his natural ability is why I put up with his bitchiness.

I would assume others feel that way in eventing land: that form is the foundation upon which you build training....or is this just a bubble-wrapped, fussy notion from H/J land? :lol:

NeverTime

Jul. 9, 2008, 04:47 PM

KBG Eventer

Jul. 9, 2008, 05:01 PM

Well let's take a look at Poggio, Teddy (according to several people on this board jumped around Rolex stadium like a crazed giraffe) and my personal favorite Murphy Himself (bouncing one strides on cross country). These are all difficult and unconventional horses that most people would have given up on. Why was it ok for their riders to keep trying and jump around the highest levels, even when it was oftentimes frightening to watch? Simply because they were wearing pink coats? I think often times, the really experienced riders and the BNTs can see something in a horse that most people would say give up on. I dare say if Third Charm and her trainers thought the horse would get hurt or her rider killed, she would not be competing her at all. And keep in mind, this horse is a work in progress and no one said she was going to be moving up tomorrow. It's a goal. When TC and her trainers feel the horse is ready, the horse will move up. Until then, she won't, and she will keep improving.

I am a stubborn person. I still disagree that Teddy looked like a giraffe in the Rolex round. Maybe it wasn't his best, but he did not jump like that all the time so (sorry! :)) I am going to be stubborn and somewhat OT on this thread and disagree that he is an example of a wierd/bad jumper that got around somehow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUOfjZChU9s Does he really look like a giraffe that whole round? Wasn't his best and Karen is an amazing rider who probably made it look much better than it was. I just don't think it was that bad, and I was also there in person watching.

starboard

Jul. 9, 2008, 05:16 PM

I admire someone sticking it out with a tough horse. But here's the thing, if someone has gaping issues (you admitted yourself), why would someone try to work them out at Prelim?
I've got to question the judgement of someone who feels 'working on issues' over jumps that can catch your horse in the shoulder (and cause a rotational fall) instead of something smaller. I often think of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

Are you not worried when you look at SJ pictures? I know it's coming out about as mean as can be, but I've seen people hint and hint and hint, and you either arent 'getting' it, or don't think it applies to you.

One last point, Are you certain your trainers haven't told you that they are concerned and you just aren't hearing it?

Has anybody else in your life told you they are concerned?
I'm a stranger. And I'm concerned, every single time I see you in the ring. Worth anything? Probably not, but I don't want to see anybody injured.
Comparing this horse to Teddy? Ewww, not a good idea. I've never seen Teddy jump with his knees dropped dangerously low.

Oooh I lied. I wanted to compliment you on the dressage actually, the horse has improved immensely. She's a pretty mover and seems like she likes it.

JER

Jul. 9, 2008, 05:22 PM

Just for accuracy's sake, let's not forget that Ginny Leng -- indisputably one of the best in the business -- DID give up on Murphy Himself, and wisely so.

IIRC, in her book, Ginny said it was her mother and trainer who made her trade Murphy. After too many hairy rides, they basically said "There's no way we're letting you ride that horse again."

NeverTime

Jul. 9, 2008, 05:25 PM

I've got the book (love the three-day conditioning schedules in it!) but don't remember the specifics. I thought she talked about being scared by him. Either way, still a good lesson to learn from -- be honest with yourself or listen to the people who have your best interests in mind.

Lose That

Jul. 9, 2008, 06:31 PM

Ok, just to clarify, my point is that everyone has a different opinion on a horse being "safe". I don't know how Teddy jumped in stadium at Rolex, and honestly nor do I care. He was a cool pony, clearly he could do the job. They didn't crash, the did well, great. And from what I have heard as well, Ginny did not want to give up the ride on the horse, and after multiple crashes was finally talked into it by her mother and her trainer, who were afraid he he would seriously hurt her. I'm pretty sure if this board was around back then everyone would be saying "no one should event that horse, he's unsafe", but a BNR saw his talent and decided to take him there. TC rides with multiple BNTs and I have never heard them express concern over the ability of the horse to go Prelim and possibly Intermediate someday, she has well made her intentions known to them and even inquired about the possibly of someone with more experience riding the horse at her first intermediate (to which the answer was yes). I think if they deemed the horse unsafe, TC would be well aware of that fact.

My point is simply that no matter who you are or what you do, everyone seems to be a critic. Good or bad, we all have our faults with our horses and have our bad rounds. I have seen TC have some not so great rounds, yes. I have also seen her have really nice rounds. Now those of you who have seen her jump at events, did you even look at the video? Personally I didn't see anything scary, I saw one long spot, and marked improvement over the rounds I saw them have last season. I think TC is working towards the nice rounds and consistency that both myself and her trainer's know she can have. I actually think it's kind of sad that she put this video up here for people to see her excitement and her improvement, did not say one word about competition or moving up, and everyone who thinks she should not be where she is at is, instead of looking at the video, is referring to stadium rounds and pictures they have seen at different events. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point of her posting this video. I think the point was the video itself, can we please stick to that and not make this into a "why don't you move down/quit/get a better horse" topic?

bornfreenowexpensive

Jul. 9, 2008, 06:54 PM

I didn't think the video looked bad at all. She is opening too soon and looks like she lifts her hands a bit too much. It is a bad habit that developed from riding the horse when it was difficult. The toughest thing about riding a difficult horse....is riding them when they are better. You have to stop riding the horse of the past and start riding the horse under you.

Sooooo much easier said than done.

I've had a couple that caused me to have the habit that TC showed in the video. What worked for me was really thinking hard about keeping my shoulder above my knee, pushing my hips forward over the top of the fence (but not openning the angle) and landing in the top of my thigh. I also stay up in two point and off my one mare's back all the time....it works for us. What also worked was forcing myself to TRUST my horse and allow them to be the best they could be.

My fitness was also key. Good luck. If she is improving, you are obviously doing something right.

ThirdCharm

Jul. 9, 2008, 07:02 PM

Yes, just like dressage, "It is simple, it's just not EASY!"

It is hard to let go of riding the "old" horse. Esp at shows!

Jennifer

MustangSally00

Jul. 9, 2008, 07:04 PM

I don't believe for a second that anyone who has posted on this thread has made any of their comments out of malice. In fact, I believe it is due to a certain sense of concern.

Nobody wants to take away from anybody's excitement regarding their improvement. I think encouraging improvement in ourselves and eachother is the reason most of us post.

All else aside, I do believe that sometimes excitement can overshadow some serious faults that we all know exist and have been dealing with for a long time and are just plain tired of dealing with.

Personally, if a large body of people were concerned with an aspect of my riding, I would stop defending it for a second and consider the advice. Then I would make my own judgement.

Not everything is a personal attack.

fivesocks

Jul. 9, 2008, 07:38 PM

Forgive me if I am repeating, but a great trainer once told me this (regarding sticking with a big jump)

"There's no shame in grabbing mane!"

ThirdCharm

Jul. 9, 2008, 07:41 PM

Well, for my part, concerns have been noted and considered. And, as you said, one must make one's own judgements.

Jennifer

flyingchange

Jul. 9, 2008, 08:19 PM

My point is simply that no matter who you are or what you do, everyone seems to be a critic. Good or bad, we all have our faults with our horses and have our bad rounds.

Boy ain't that the truth. Doesn't appear to be the easiest of rides. Great job.

Fence2Fence

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:09 AM

I enjoyed watching TC's video.

One of my greatest problems as a rider is that I fear making mistakes. I'm slowly coming to grips with an occassional mistake is ok and is apart of the learning process. I find it reassuring to see someone say "Hey, look--I'm improving."

While some of the comments here have been really interesting, *some* of the assumptions and criticalness just floors me. I recognize both the arena that lesson is being held in and the backside of the man who is teaching the lesson. I don't think people recognize who she working with; if they did, I don't think they'd readily throw out some of their comments.

I really respect how TC has kept her cool.

Trixie

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:16 AM

I don't think people recognize who she working with; if they did, I don't think they'd readily throw out some of their comments.

I think that with most folks on this board, it's irrelevant, and their comments would absolutely remain exactly the same. Really, I'm not seeing anything said out of malice or nastiness that would cause TC to "lose her cool" - people are speaking out of genuine CONCERN.

saje

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:19 AM

I also respect how she's kept her cool (criticism is never easy to hear, even the constructive kind) and I know exactly who that is in the video. What we don't know is what his comments are; he may be a BNT but he cannot force her to change her ways or her level.

Personally the mare's droppped forearm style of jumping and her tendency to stand back and fling herself at the fence (is that the hard jumping feeling, possibly?) combined with the giraffe necked head fling would make me stop at TL with her. The is no shame in saying 'this is as far as we go'. Not every horse has to make it all the way up the levels. Usually discretion IS the better part of valor.

But that's just me, and I'm essentially a nobody so my thoughts will count for not much, I bet.

starboard

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:30 AM

Er, of course I know that ring, and that fabulous man. I'm just curious to know if he sees the same pictures and stadium rounds we do. I'd imagine hes busy with his own horses at these events.

At what point should we say something? All this talk of safety is just BS if nobody is willing to say "hey, we're concerned here, are you sure this is a good idea?" What good is screaming about dangerous riding but not actually pointing it out to someone?

The detractors on this thread aren't making any assumptions, they (well me at least) have seen absolutely heart-stopping efforts from a horse who shouldn't be at that level. And TC is a great rider, lord knows I'd never be able to ride that type of...erm...capriole? over a jump, and wow what a seriously solid leg (honest!).
Its easy to drag up the photos to see what we're referring to. I wont do it here, but before someone cries that we're not being fair--we're plain worried, and if others arent after seeing them, well thats even scarier.

Lose That

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:32 AM

Really, the only thing that bothers me about this thread is that everyone assumes, because THEY don't like the horses jumping style, the Third Charm MUST be ignoring the advice of her trainers. She's not!

magnolia73

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:32 AM

I think one idea that grew out of the Rolex tragedies was to encourage people to speak up when they see something that concerns them. People saw issues in the video that caused concern, mainly a fault in the riders posotion, caused by the horses jumping style. They brought it up in a constructive fashion. The poster, Third Charm did a nice job of addressing concerns and not being offended. It sounds like several other posters learned some new tips and maybe someone else who didn't post learned something as well.

I suppose whenever we see a video, we could just say "Wow, lookin' good." We could feed an ego and promote "hey its all good", the same kind of crap that got Laine Ashker's horse killed. Or we can sit back, watch, come forward with meaningful criticism and help educate ourselves. Maybe as a result of this Third Charm is going to set some gymnastics or ride with a hunter clinician to focus on form over fences. Maybe someone else recognized her faults in their own rides and will try some of the suggestions. Maybe this will help them improve and get better.

On more than one occasion, people have posted photos and videos that were not up to par. I think we learn by watching and for people with experience to ignore faults and errors and post "good going", we are doing a disservice to the readers who may have less experience and may feel that their deficiencies are equally benign and decide they are ready to go prelim or training despite having a horse with an odd style or a deficient position. And they may not be getting the training that Third Charm receives. And they may get hurt because we don't want to "hurt people's feelings".

And I doubt Third Charm is crying over the opinions in this topic. She's probably been yelled by some of the best there are. But some of the people watching and learning from this do not have her background or support staff and need to recognize that these jumpjng rounds vary from the ideal.

Maria

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:38 AM

Questions for Third Charm:

Has the BNT in the video or some other BNT ever ridden the horse in question? If so what was their expert opinion of the horses jumping style and technique used for riding the horse? Have any of these BNT, particularly the one in the video, said what they think the horses potential might be?

Yes I know who the trainer is in the video.

saje

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:48 AM

People saw issues in the video that caused concern, mainly a fault in the riders position, caused by the horses jumping style.

Which also brings up a chicken & egg question, possibly for a spinoff:

Which came first, the jumping style or the position?

And also, when does unorthodox become dangerous, or does it?

ThirdCharm

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:07 AM

Yes, the BNT and another BNT have gotten on this horse and jumped her. This led to the advice to "ride like you're dropping into water" to deal with her "kick" over fences. Which has been repeated numerous times over the five years I've been training her, though, as noted, as her form improves I'm finding it easier to follow. Another ULR expressed willingness to take her Intermediate her first time or two, if I wanted. I don't _think_ she seemed like she had a deathwish, and she has a REALLY nice setup so isn't hurting for horses to ride!

As also mentioned, the goal of going Intermediate eventually has been discussed with my trainer and the goal of "clear rounds at 4'" was set as a requirement in April (after my trainer coached me at two events, so yes has seen my stadium rounds and noted improvement from one to the next, but that I definitely do not ride my best in sj at events). I can do it in lessons (yes, with combinations) so apparently it is possible, and my last event with her improved further. No reservations about the safety of her jumping form (just that it can be hard to follow) have ever been mentioned, by any trainer I've ridden with.

Jennifer

ThirdCharm

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:09 AM

saje--

In this particular case, the jumping style came first. I don't ride ANY other horse like this, and I have several. None of them jump like this, and with the exception of one, I have done all their training from the ground up.

Jennifer

tds

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:36 AM

I recognize both the arena that lesson is being held in and the backside of the man who is teaching the lesson. I don't think people recognize who she working with; if they did, I don't think they'd readily throw out some of their comments.

Please do NOT make that assumption, as you would be dead wrong.

As Starboard said - and certainly as others have indicated in their comments - they are not just basing their opinion on this one video. Or one picture. Or one "in person" sighting. But on a combination of all or many of the above. Please grant us respect in this area, as nobody (including TC herself) is behaving disrespectfully. No need to prompt this thread to devolve to that "if you only knew" level, right?

For myself, I merely gave an example of a horse I owned. It took me a long time to admit to myself that this horse's form was not safe over a certain height and it wasn't necessarily related to his ability to jump that height, even though I would have recognized it in a heartbeat in someone else's horse. It's tough to admit those things to oneself, especially if we have our hopes and dreams tied up in the project and horse.

The only other thing I would throw into consideration is a horse who jumps like this may have physical issues (and by physical issues I don't mean "lameness" that gets you spun from the jog - we've all been around the block enough times to know there is a world between happy/sound and lame/spun). And if this horse is so different doing courses at home versus in stadium, then to me, there must be a critical analysis of what is happening to the horse over the course of an entire event (and the prep that went into it) that may not be in play when the horse is in normal work and jumped around a possibly even bigger course at home? Is there a physical element adding to the bad form that compounds the problem. Because the video confirms the style of the horse's jump, but it is not nearly as unsettling as some of the competition rounds were (but it was also edited and not one technical or related element in there, so there is that)...

Last but not least, I've seen no evidence of an extravagent back end or any hint of a bascule. In my own experience, that "back crack" feeling comes more from the heave ho effect of the horse throwing itself at the jump. It's extraordinarily difficult to sit - much more so than a true stylist over a big fence.

HiJumpGrrl

Jul. 10, 2008, 11:16 AM

TC, I do commend your ability to take all of this feedback with the good faith in which it has been offered. I am by no means an expert, a professional, etc etc. I do recognize your trainer, and have in fact ridden in lessons with you.

I share the same concerns regarding the horse's form that others do. She is a "drapey" forearm kind of jumper, lacks impulsion to the base, and throws herself over the fence in many of the jumps. This has improved, but is even evident in the video posted here. This is the kind of jumping that leads to rotational falls. Scary.

Again, I think your stick-to-it-ivness is admirable. Riding a difficult horse is something that can make a person a better rider. I know you try not to ride other horses with the same defensive style that you have adopted with Bolivia. However, I do see some of your greener horses jumping with the same defensive style she has, lack of bascule, etc. I hope that you have considered how continuing to ride her may be affecting your riding overall, and therefore the way your other horses go.

fooler

Jul. 10, 2008, 07:02 PM

so I went looking at your pictures. . . .except Jeannette is the only who identified herself. Not picking on you Jeannette, merely using you to make a point.

I looked at pictures from 2008 at the Ark and at VA. Jeannette went T at the ARK & P at VA, Jennifer went P at both.
Agree with all that Bolivia is untidy with her lower leg and as all have noted she has a very unorthodox jump.
Jeannette's horse has a tendency to point down with his knees on XC (really big issue with me), more tidy on SJ. Jumped greenly at VA, as expected with his 1st prelim.
Both riders have position faults - different, but faults. Both riders have a 'defensive + agressive' position, very interesting to review.

I could easily present a case that Jeannette & her horse are not safe, much as the case you are presenting about Jennifer. Something to consider as this could be said about the majority of folks competing.

What I find most interesting is the steady drumbeat that Jennifer just is not 'listening' to 'reason'. One of the things I admire about Jennifer is her willingness to hear and process all commentary - good or bad. She has already decided to take 'your concerns' to her trainer for feedback. She has repeatedly stated that she is working with some of the best if not the best in our sport. She has repeatedly answered your concerns in that she is taking it slow. She & her trainer are in agreement about her current level and she will stay there until she and the trainer agree it is time to change.

I must admit that some of the comments do remind me of the high school cliques who 'only wanted to help some poor forsaken misfit'. If you are really concerned, don't do on the BB anonymously. Contact her directly, her website contains her email address.

starboard

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:14 PM

TC, you really are to be commended for your tact, I mean that honestly. I'm sure none of this is easy to hear.
Your "friends" however? Oy, again.

Did someone just pick on a poster on this thread, someone who offered constructive criticism, riding a horse who as far as I can tell from the pictures you mention, has never done this over a jump?
(And I said I wouldn't do this but uh, really!?)
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426564_Gi9vV#262231126_jjTxq
or this? http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/1928464_WDdU6#101758227_cYHAn
Look, of course people have bad jumps--it is the nature of riding. But when it happens at a great percentage of jumps, and continues event after event, theres a problem.
Shame on anybody who doesn't see it. Again I ask, when should we say something, when horse or rider is hurt?
Really?
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426564_Gi9vV#262230419_N7bEc

"She has repeatedly answered your concerns in that she is taking it slow."
Again I ask, Why even TRY to fix these issues at PRELIM. No doubt the issue still exists at training. Or Novice even? Nobody ever answers that question. Curious, that.

With that, I'm done beating a dead horse. Hopefully TC realizes that people are genuinely concerned for her safety.

On Second Thought

Jul. 10, 2008, 09:32 PM

Fooler. Seriously?

Yes everyone has bad jumps, but are you really comparing this jumping style:

http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/3276600_8XCq9#183766056_WJKwZ
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/3276600_8XCq9#183764343_JxvN5
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/3276600_8XCq9#183764844_LnzBy
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/3276600_8XCq9#P-3-15
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426564_Gi9vV#262230419_N7bEc
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426564_Gi9vV#262229374_Jhk55
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426564_Gi9vV#262229530_L6Qok

to one GREEN (at the level) horse who had ONE event where he didn't jump like this?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3268/2466252804_ce1e477f0e.jpg

Jennifer, you're taking this very well, and I wasn't going to post pictures, because I think that's pretty harsh... but reality often is and Fooler's comparison just DID not hold water.

Yes, as Starboard said, everyone has a bad jump now and again, lord knows I have. But ideally it would be more difficult to find the bad ones than the good ones.

This isn't said out of malice or anything malevolent and sure there could be some intricate inner workings that these pictures don't show. But again, like Starboard said, I don't understand why they couldn't be worked out over smaller fences, cause people and horses getting hurt breaks my heart.

Lose That

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:18 PM

Well, not to be mean, but he has had at least TWO events where he didn't jump like that.

http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426480_zVgRx#262565105_XwiQT

http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426480_zVgRx#262564726_6aZ3G

http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426480_zVgRx#262564403_gZSXS

So maybe he was GREEN at training in March before being GREEN at prelim in May.

Which is fine. I am making no judgments about Jeanette or her horse and I think they are a nice pair (agh sorry to post unflattering pics Jeanette!) but for all you guys saying "work everything out over small fences and don't move up until your horse jumps with its knees around its ears" um (as my best friend says)... hello pot. This is kettle. And we're both black.

starboard

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:22 PM

Wait, two events? Looks like two jumps to me?

Lose That, you should educate yourself on what proper jumping form is, for starters.

Was it you or supporter number 2 that compared TC's horse to Teddy?

Dang Jeannette, your horse looks untalented and dangerous, looking through the rest of those pics (Thanks for the link Lose!). You should be more careful.

Lose That

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:33 PM

Maybe you should educate yourself on "reading for comprehension".

I didn't say Livi jumped like Teddy. I said there could be a lot of debate over lots of horse/rider pairs. Is that true? Yes, I'm pretty sure it is.

I didn't even look at the prelim pictures of Jeanette. I'm going to make an ass out of myself by assuming he did not jump at VA with his knees around his ears since that is what I read in two previous posts. That would make the Ark event #1 and VA (which I could be mistaken about) event #2.

Thanks, I know what proper jumping for is. I also know that a lot of upper level horses don't share the "proper" form.

Would it make you happy if I just said "ok nevermind, TC should clearly not be going prelim because a bunch of people (most of whom I don't know from Adam) said she shouldn't on a message board?" I think I'm gonna stick with what I've heard from her trainers in lessons, and the fact that I have never seen the horse touch a jump with her knees on cross country, and the fact that I think nerves and such play a large part in the pairs often less than perfect stadium rounds. I'd rather have a horse that I trusted to clear those max fences every time on xc (even in questionable form) than a horse that was allergic to wood in stadium. Sorry, just MHO, to which I think we are all entitled.

ThirdCharm

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:35 PM

*sigh* When I feel unsafe or someone who is actually familiar with me and the horse in question expressed a concern, then I will worry. My trainer has, again, had no qualms about telling me his honest and unflattering opinion of a couple other horses I've ridden. Otherwise I might as well save my $65-75/hour and just post videos and get free training here! (Think COTH would allow that? Save me a lot of $$!)

I think it's time to let this thread slide into the abyss, folks. It is getting rather ridiculous. Thank you for your concerns, I will, again, keep them in mind as I continue to work with my trainers and horses to improve their way of going and my own riding skills, such as they are.

Jennifer

Lose That

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:39 PM

*stamps thread*

Train Wreck! :lol: (wish this board had a drama llama smiley lol)

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl

Jul. 10, 2008, 10:40 PM

We did, indeed, jump like a shocked gazelle over more than several of the jumps at The Ark this spring! If we made a habit of doing that, I would be a lot less excited about bringing Larry along.

If anyone can find the extraordinary pictures of me on Bella Tonya at the CHP - you'll know them when you see them, we are airborne and my form is, umm, reactive - I'll give you 50 bucks or donate $100 to CANTER in your name, as long as folks are researching...

Lucinda Greene's comment on Bella was "she jumps like a fairy!" (and she meant this in a good way ;) ) but alas, Bella did not want to be an event horse. Or did not want to move up from Training, at least. I found her another home, somewhat sadly as I loved jumping her, and I think we only accrued XC penalties twice, and had one rail I recall in our career...

tds

Jul. 11, 2008, 08:37 AM

it totally sucks when you have to give up on one for the good of the horse, your neck and possibly even the sport, eh? ;)

As a pure observationist of style, when a horse is catty to the base, curls itself around a jump and keeps its lower leg as tight as a tick up to the point of the vertical line of the fence, to me that is a safer more athletic horse. If a horse is to point its legs (and they all do eventually), my preference is that style over the other one being discussed here. Hell, if I ever could have got the horse I owned to do those things (as I said in my first post), I wouldn't have given up on him. But my tolerance for his particular combination of form faults reached its limits.

YMMV

Pixie Dust

Jul. 11, 2008, 08:45 AM

Oh please, Larry is really scopey. You have to look for consistency.

Same event, which was his worst outing. Look at his bascule. Look where his knees are!!!

http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/4426480_zVgRx#262565438_EZ3af

Doesn't anyone ever read Jumping Clinic anymore?

ETA, TC, I have no bone to pick with you, I don't want you to feel like you're under a big pile up. You seem like a super nice person. I saw you guys go by at VAHT and you looked just fine. I think people are truly scared when the see a horse jump with his knees pointing down too many times. That's all.

SuperOtto

Jul. 11, 2008, 08:47 AM

Jeannette, sorry to say that those pictures probably no longer exist. If they were at CHP, usually Pics of You is there - they only keep their photos online for about 6 months or so - after that - POOF!! No more. :(

FairWeather

Jul. 11, 2008, 09:11 AM

Jeannette's horse has a tendency to point down with his knees on XC (really big issue with me)HA, I guess we know what your issues aren't!

Has this really devolved into pitting one horse against another? Cause if so, who's taking bets, Mama wants to buy a new tractor!
Having watched this horse (Jeannette's) develop from the ground up I can easily say he's one of the most athletic beasts I've had the privilege of wrapping a leg on, and I can assure you he's never done what some of those other pictures have shown of the bay mare, much less consistently (that would be over a span of years, not courses). Being able to get out of trouble when a rider makes an error is a good thing--but jumping dangerously in spite of a good distance? That's a bit terrifying.

I've seen TC's horse gallop by at VHT and she looked capable on XC. Too bad XC isn't the only element.

"Woulda won, if'n it werent for that pesky Show Jumping and dressage" ;)

ETA: Fooler--Here's me, if you wanna pick me apart too since i've now contributed to this thread (thanks for the links ya'll, found some old pics!") Pay special attention to Jump 5, it makes me laugh and laugh.
http://hoofclix.smugmug.com/gallery/3159447_GXLD9#173604908_qTKCL

Trixie

Jul. 11, 2008, 09:35 AM

Losethat and fooler, how tacky. Especially since as you admitted, LoseThat, you said you didn’t even look at the prelim photos. The comparison made does NOT hold water in the slightest and it's so far from even being relevant. Let’s review:

- The OP posts a video with some very obvious faults
- The OP has previously posted photos with other very obvious faults, CONSISTENTLY.
- Students of the OP have posted photos with similar obvious faults.
- Folks who have seen the OP and her students ride are expressing their very grave CONCERN for the safety of all involved.

How, exactly, after all of that, does it matter how Jeanette rides her horse?

magnolia73

Jul. 11, 2008, 09:40 AM

Meh-
Just because:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25160020@N02/2393397533/in/set-72157605204363743/

http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/video/video/show?id=1971868%3AVideo%3A66147

Only I can ride defensively to a bad distance over a rail on the ground.

http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/video/video/show?id=1971868%3AVideo%3A62896

At least you all mess up over real jumps.

flyingchange

Jul. 11, 2008, 09:46 AM

Holt $hit. This is why I couldn't get out of high school fast enough and deactivated from a sorority in college. Sheesh.

fooler

Jul. 11, 2008, 10:08 AM

How Jeannette rides has as much relavence as Jennifer rides as I ride (Jean Grizzell also at the ARK & VA) By the way you will have plenty to pick on me which you can not place at Jennifer's feet as I have only been with her a very short while.

Looking strickly at the XC pictures from the ARK & VA Jeannette has her feet very forward and a low upper body. Using basic riding principles, her feet are not underneath-rather in front so she does not have the base of support as we are all taught. With the low upper body she takes the shape of an elongated 'c' which gives the appearance that she is or will use the reins to balance.
Again on XC the horse appears to jump up in a very round fashion, but often points his knees down & often has 'loose' lower legs. In several pictures his hind feet are very close to the fence & Jeannette is either sitting or coming down in the saddle.

Looking at Jennifer - she tends to be ahead with her upper body in the initial jump & gets rocked back in the arc of the fence. She is still Jennifer's feet are more under her body in the pictures. Agreed Bolivia does not bascule over the fences as does Jeannette's. Agreed both horses can be untidy with the front.
Interesting to look at the P Trak & T Trak at the ARK for both riders.

Since eventing is a XC based sport I focused my attention on XC. SJ is more forgiving than XC as the fences come down. My personal preference is to have a great XC horse and work thru the dressage & SJ. As stated over & over, Bolivia is a work in progress. More & more sj courses are in arenas which 'can be' restricting to both horse and rider. Something they are working through.

Finally - at Jennifer & Bolivia's last event, they were first after dressage & went clean XC, dropped one rail to end up in 3rd. Darn that stadium. . . . .

fooler

Jul. 11, 2008, 10:09 AM

Holt $hit. This is why I couldn't get out of high school fast enough and deactivated from a sorority in college. Sheesh.

LOL - this is one of the reasons I live as far away from my HS town as possible & only visit due to family. Now if they will only move. . . .

bornfreenowexpensive

Jul. 11, 2008, 10:11 AM

I refuse to get in the middle attacking people personally....that is happening WAY WAY WAY too much on the BB.

I shared this story with someone off line and I will share it here because *I* learned something from it and because I'm getting sick of all this focus on a horse jumping with its knees down.

I worked for Frank Chapot (if you don't know who that is....look it up) at one time in my life....just a lowly groom but I learned a ton (and was lucky to ride a lot of horses with him and his family). Frank had one horse that jumped in the WORST form I'd ever seen. Knees consitently pointing straight down. Did Frank like it...of course not...NOT at all. But the horse also jumped 5'+ clean consistently. I asked Frank about how to fix that horse's form (and learned some good things) and it was always being worked on but in the end....Frank's point was that was the way that horse jumped, but as long as he left the rails up, he was a good horse. It was just ashame because if he pick up his knees...he could jump a 7' foot course.

No, I don't think TCs mare has the talent that Frank's horse had. And I am more concerned with a horse that dangles it's legs like that especially for xc. I don't know whether TC's mare is a good horse or not BUT not all good horses jump with their knees to their eyeballs.

I have two mares...neither jumpes with their knees to their eyeballs but both are very nice mares. They can and DO jump with their knees jacked up when they have to....but since they are both scopy, that usually isn't until the fences are over 4' or I've given them a good ride to a deep distance (or bounce) over 3'6".....if I give them an extremely bad ride, get in their face and jump ahead....well it isn't always pretty....but under 4', they both have the scope to make up for my mistake. They both also tend to leave the rails up....even when I give them a bad ride...the one time that didn't happen with one of them, it turned out she had the start of a tendon injury.

Form over fences is just part of the equation....a horse can have perfect form and no scope to jump higher than 3'6" (or even 3') or can have less than perfect form but still more than enough scope to be safe over 3'6" fences. And you can't always tell a horse's scope by looking at still pictures on line. I don't know this mare of TCs at all....so I would not make a judgment based on pictures alone.

I think that what perhaps make's TC's mare scary to people has FAR more to do with her ridability than her jumping form....and she looks like a difficult ride from the pictures and video. If the mare is fighting adjustments, running through distances, leaving strides out in combinations etc. THAT is more dangerous. If you add that type of lack of ridability with not the best natural form....then you can get in real trouble. Most of the time, the lack of ridability makes the horse's form worse since the rider often is getting in the horse's way preventing them from having better "form"....especially if that horse is very sensitive (horses that are both opinionated..or worse.... and sensitive can be very tough and dangerous rides). AND lack of ridability, even with perfect form, is still VERY dangerous. We know what is on course....they do not know that the simple looking rock wall has a 5' drop on the backside or that the distance in the triple is tight...so when we say whoa, wait, they need to listen. At what level someone should be working on it....well to me that depends on the horse and the rider....and not something I would give advice about here and instead hope that the rider is getting such educated advice from reputable trainers.

Just my 2 cents.

Dr. Doolittle

Jul. 11, 2008, 10:25 AM

I refuse to get in the middle attacking people personally....that is happening WAY WAY WAY too much on the BB.

I shared this story with someone off line and I will share it here because *I* learned something from it and because I'm getting sick of all this focus on a horse jumping with its knees down.

I worked for Frank Chapot (if you don't know who that is....look it up) at one time in my life....just a lowly groom but I learned a ton (and was lucky to ride a lot of horses with him and his family). Frank had one horse that jumped in the WORST form I'd ever seen. Knees consitently pointing straight down. Did Frank like it...of course not. But the horse also jumped 5'+ clean consistently. I asked Frank about how to fix that horse's form (and learned some good things) and it was always being worked on but in the end....Frank's point was that was the way that horse jumped, but as long as he left the rails up, he was a good horse. It was just ashame because if he pick up his knees...he could jump a 7' foot course.

No, I don't think TCs mare has the talent that Frank's horse had. And I am more concerned with a horse that dangles it's legs like that especially for xc. I don't know whether TC's mare is a good horse or not BUT not all good horses jump with their knees to their eyeballs.

I have two mares...neither jumpes with their knees to their eyeballs but both are very nice mares. They can and DO jump with their knees jacked up when they have to....but since they are both scopy, that usually isn't until the fences are over 4' or I've given them a good ride to a deep distance (or bounce) over 3'6".....if I give them an extremely bad ride, get in their face and jump ahead....well it isn't always pretty....but under 4', they both have the scope to make up for my mistake.

Form over fences is just part of the equation....a horse can have perfect form and no scope to jump higher than 3'6" (or even 3') or can have less than perfect form but still more than enough scope to be safe over 3'6" fences. And you can't always tell a horse's scope by looking at still pictures on line. I don't know this mare of TCs at all....so I would not make a judgment based on pictures alone.

I think that what perhaps make's TC's mare scary to people has FAR more to do with her ridability than her jumping form....and she looks like a difficult ride from the pictures and video. If the mare is fighting adjustments, running through distances, leaving strides out in combinations etc. THAT is more dangerous. If you add that type of lack of ridability with not the best natural form....then you can get in real trouble. Most of the time, the lack of ridability makes the horse's form worse since the rider often is getting in the horse's way preventing them from having better "form"....especially if that horse is very sensitive (horses that are both opinionated..or worse.... and sensitive can be very tough and dangerous rides). At what level someone should be working on it....well to me that depends on the horse and the rider....and not something I would give advice about here and instead hope that the rider is getting such educated advice from reputable trainers.

Just my 2 cents.

Bornfree, these are *excellent* points you make :yes:, and thanks for making them so clearly, logically, and even-handedly...

(I have a "sensitive, opinionated" mare, whose rideability I am ALWAYS working on; her jumping form is generally very good, but on the ocassions when she "gets her panties in a wad"--thereby rendering her less rideable--her form tends to deteriorate. I think this also may well apply to the OP's mare, sheesh, mares! :rolleyes:, and I agree: if she is getting good advice from reputable trainers, and is not only aware of the issues, but also *continuing* to work on them, isn't that something we should support, instead of vilify?...)

bornfreenowexpensive

Jul. 11, 2008, 10:46 AM

I have a "sensitive, opinionated" mare, whose rideability I am ALWAYS working on.

Yup...I've have two and have had many more in the past. I actually like the sensitive opinionated sort but they can be tougher rides...and the ridability is the thing you spend the most time working on. The hardest call is when to say when.....are they improving in their ridability, and do they have the talent to be safe at the level they are at even when they are not ridable. The one type of horse I will not ride is one that has no sense of self preservation. My sensitive opinionated mares may be (or once were) tougher rides....but NONE of them would do anything that would get them hurt and therefore I too am less likely to get hurt. Well, at least when I don't climb up their neck at a fence and get deposited in a ditch;)

Dr. Doolittle

Jul. 11, 2008, 10:58 AM

Yup...I've have two and have had many more in the past. I actually like the sensitive opinionated sort but they can be tougher rides...and the ridability is the thing you spend the most time working on. The hardest call is when to say when.....are they improving in their ridability, and do they have the talent to be safe at the level they are at even when they are not ridable. The one type of horse I will not ride is one that has no sense of self preservation. My sensitive opinionated mares may be (or once were) tougher rides....but NONE of them would do anything that would get them hurt and therefore I too am less likely to get hurt. Well, at least when I don't climb up their neck at a fence and get deposited in a ditch;)

:yes:

And :D

Lose That

Jul. 11, 2008, 05:42 PM

I'm not attacking anyone, or anyone's horse. Like I said, I really like both Jeanette and her horse and often watch them go at events. Good god people.

What I object to is everyone on this board just blasting everyone that they feel shouldn't be where they are. Fooler and I were making a point that based on certain rides/ pics, there can be an argument for most us being scary at some point. People who watch Jennifer ride the horse all the time have a different point of view and see much different rounds at home and lessons and schooling shows than ya'll see at events. But apparently we deserve to be berated for that opinion (i.e now all Jennifer's students and other horses are scary and terrifying). Tacky?

The OP posted a video she was proud of, from a much later date than all these old pictures and rounds that you have all seen, and instead of noting the obvious improvement you all brought this thread back to the train-wreck of six months ago when the original pictures were brought up and highlighted. You do realize that, right? I don't think any of you can argue the improvement in the new video. Isn't that what this sport is about? Improvement and learning and supporting each other? That's one of the reasons I like eventing so much. What I hate about this board is how everyone turns things into personal attacks in their quests to be right, and people read into posts whatever they want to read into them.

By the way Jeanette, I really do like your horse, a lot, and believe I have commented on that fact to Jennifer on multiple occasions, so I hope you don't think I was trying to attack you.

asterix

Jul. 11, 2008, 05:50 PM

I have been reading this thread for a while now with an uncomfortable feeling. Bornfree, thanks for your thoughtful and on-topic posts.

Look, I know we all want to make our sport safer, and we are all rightly somewhat fired up about this "speak up if you see something" idea...

but I think the appropriate way to respond, if you see pictures or video from a fellow poster that look scary to you, is to point out, once, what it is IN the picture or video that might need work...and then stop. If you want to PM the person and go on at length, or find out who s/he rides with and satisfy yourself that adequate coaching is available, have at it. But a prolonged public bashing involving links to pictures and descriptions of rides seen by some and not others...and then tit-for-tat picture linking...

this is NOT making anyone safer, and it IS disrespectful and a distinct devolution of the tone of this forum.

Please think about what you are trying to accomplish by this sort of thing.

eventrider

Jul. 11, 2008, 07:10 PM

There is no reason to post pictures and criticize anyone on this forum. There was no reason to bring up and post either TC or Jeannette's pictures on this thread. If someone feels that either are unsafe, send them a PM or give them a phone call. This does not need to be hashed out on a BB. The original post says nothing of asking for opinions, and again, it can be done in a better manner.

Christan

ddashaq

Jul. 11, 2008, 07:29 PM

EVENTING MOM

Jul. 11, 2008, 10:47 PM

Yes thank you event rider. Please everyone be careful as to what you say about riders and horses. My 11yr daughter is a student of TC and she is usually looking over my sholuder while I am viewing the forum. She became upset at some of the post towards TC. Remember these up and coming young riders see and hear everything.

Shawn

WildBlue

Jul. 11, 2008, 11:58 PM

Remember these up and coming young riders see and hear everything.

As do people interested in/getting started with the sport. I read a fair bit here, especially the recent safety/clean up the sport topics, and have read this entire thread.

I have a hot, sensitive mare who is quite, shall we say, "opinionated". There was one picture of the bay mare completely inverted over the jump, and all I could think was "Thank god no one had a camera when *we* did the exact same thing." She jumped early, while I was still trying to get her to my spot, and I didn't get out of the way in time.

This forum is a very useful sounding board, especially when your brain says one thing and your gut says another. Comments here and elsewhere on the forum have kept me from backsliding on my decision to step things down with my mare until we can go out in public without being "that guy".

Bunch of spoilsports.... <j/k>

saje

Jul. 12, 2008, 07:28 AM

Remember these up and coming young riders see and hear everything.

Shawn

And why is this bad? No time like the present to learn to analyze jumping form (both horse and rider) and learn from it. Trainers are not gods, they make mistakes and sometimes seeing how NOT to do something is as valuable as anything. Your daughter can also learn how to handle criticism in a calm and professional manner. I'm impressed with TC's response to all this - that's a very good lesson for anyone. The horseworld (hell the world at large) is a pretty harsh place at times. It ain't fair, never will be. Learning to handle that is a skill that far too many people lack.

Everything I've heard about TC is that she is very dedicated and hardworking, and just a nice person to boot. But she & mare have raised eyebrows before, and in the current climate in eventing it's not surprising that it has come up again.

EVENTING MOM

Jul. 12, 2008, 10:23 AM

Thank you Saje for your reply. My daughter has alot to learn and she has been taught not to criticize any rider or horse because she will have bad moments and will learn from her mistakes and others. She is also learning to be professional from TC and Denny. Thank you again I hope you continue to have a good year.

Shawn

magnolia73

Jul. 12, 2008, 10:44 AM

People who go far in life are those who can offer constructive criticism and those who listen and use some of those suggestions.

I think one of the big things we all need to learn- every last one of us - if we are to become good riders and trainers - is how to give and take honest, direct criticism. I think sometimes I can be critical in a direct fashion- perhaps more direct than needed due to my career. My thoughts can help save someone from a multi million dollar mistake. I make a good living at a fairly simple job simply because I'm not afraid to tell someone their idea has problems.

Thirdcharm is an EXCELLENT example of someone who heard criticism, took parts to heart and is going from there. I think young riders need to learn this skill more than ever. Read Laine Ashkers blog and you will see the need for people to be able to listen to something other than "You are beautiful and talented". Every weekend you see trainers at shows letting kids do dangerous things- the whole time with a smile on their face and a pat on the back for the rider. That's why trip after trip you hold your breath hoping no one crashes and burns. I remember sitting watching a young rider getting run away with in stadium, reins on the buckle. The judge mentioned to shorten her reins and kid bursts out in tears. Trainer reams judge out for being mean. I'm sure that kid never heard that she might actually be doing something wrong and dangerous. The judge wasn't being mean, she was expressing a concern. It's a tough sport and at some point some tough skin needs to be formed.

I think one of the most useful parts of this BB is the ability to show photos and videos and get feedback. Posters on here range from people who have never swung a leg over a horse to Olympic level riders. And I suppose the risk is run that you hear snide comments, false praise or bad information. But sometimes you can pull great nuggets of info from this stuff.

Ultimately, snide comments aside, this was a useful topic on riding, training and progressing with difficult horses with unconventional jumping form. I learned that you should probably stay away from those types unless you have skills, access to trainers and heck of a lot of patience. It sounds like some people have given up, some have dropped levels, some have modified jumping positions, some are super patient. Maybe a young rider hoping to get to Rolex will see this and choose another path for themselves or that horse after reading how these posters have dealt.

My advice to Thirdcharm- make sure you sit on an easy horse every so often. :)

magnolia73

Jul. 12, 2008, 10:50 AM

My daughter has alot to learn and she has been taught not to criticize any rider or horse because she will have bad moments and will learn from her mistakes and others. She is also learning to be professional from TC and Denny.

I think it is the difference- it is one thing for her to say "Mmm- they stink!" - not professional! But learning to see and verbalize faults "She let him flatten his stride to the oxer and ran past the distance pulling a rail because she leaned"- that's a worthwhile learning tool and one necessary for being a professional. Even assessing horses can be a great skill. When I bought my horse a friend mentioned that she was long in her back and straight behind which could make her a weak candidate for dressage. I don't think its bad to start looking at horses and recognizing how function might follow form.

JER

Jul. 12, 2008, 11:34 AM

My daughter has alot to learn and she has been taught not to criticize any rider or horse because she will have bad moments and will learn from her mistakes and others. She is also learning to be professional from TC and Denny.

When my teenager started eventing at age 12, I encouraged her to watch the warm-up rings and pick out who was safe and who was scary. Same with out on XC. Because she was refreshingly free of any insider knowledge, she judged people by how they rode and behaved -- which meant that some of her Scariest Rider awards went to BNRs.

Even a young rider should know the difference between the occasional mistake and chronic bad habits.

On the positive side, she learned a lot about how to prepare a horse and how to treat your students, fellow riders, officials and volunteers.