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ChocoMare
Oct. 1, 2008, 07:15 AM
Reminder from Page 3 :)


The specific name of the Onchocerca that lives in soft tissue is:

Onchocerca Reticulata -- a parasite of horses, mules and donkeys. Adult worms are found in the connective tissue of flexor tendons and suspensory ligament of the fetlock, mostly in the forelimb.

SSFLandon
Oct. 1, 2008, 09:01 AM
Ambrey- Yes, this vet says what scientists and researchers call Neck Threadworms is not Onchocerca. I wish I had written down the "real " name of what she calls NTW. I am thinking this may be why people are reporting resistance when they broach the topic of NTW with their vets. According to this vet NTW are ONLY shown to be relevant in foals and are not known to cause skin symptoms. Again according to this vet, Onchocerca is another matter and can cause any number of skin or eye symptoms. I have no idea if this info is specific to this vet or all vets. However, it does make me wonder if this is why some of the info is confusing. Could it be that some people (vets and /or us regular people) are calling them the same pest and some people are calling them 2 different pests?

Some of you wanted to know why my vet does not think DD of equimax or Iver is suggested. I briefly got a moment to ask her a little more about her opinion of NOT to DD. In short, she said NTW are not a problem kind of what the above poster said. She also said 1 dose is sufficient (assuming you are giving the proper amt based on weight) and that continuing to give it will cause a resistance in the future. Yes, the horse will not die of DD (though some prone to colic could) resistance is a major problem. The other classes of wormers are used to DD but, not this class. Just her opinion.

ChocoMare
Oct. 1, 2008, 09:06 AM
Ok DD Equimax Protocol Testers. I'm gonna need your help. I just finished the first clean up of the posts. My printer is running crazily right now spitting them all out.

EDITED CUZ I CHANGED MY MIND--To do individual PMs is gonna take me forever, so here's the change.

FOR EVERYONE WHO'S DONE THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX/IVERMECTIN TEST...whether or not you've posted before, I need final updates in the below format BUT Don't Post them only here!!! PLEASE.....E-mail your responses to me at chocomare@bellsouth.net (chocomare@bellsouth.net) :)

AGE OF HORSE
BREED OF HORSE
SEX OF HORSE

--List all Pre-administration symptoms that lead to suspicion of NTW infestation, with length of time if you can. Try your best to keep it the report clean and "clinical."

DATE OF 1st DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

DATE OF 2nd DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

If you've done post 2nd DD deworming (like weekly Ivermectin or 3rd DD), list dates, info.

Offer final conclusion and how you plan to change your deworming program going forward.



Thanks for your cooperation. :)

Lori T
Oct. 1, 2008, 10:28 AM
Will send mine this evening after work and barn. THanks for doing this!


Ok DD Equimax Protocol Testers. I'm gonna need your help. I just finished the first clean up of the posts. My printer is running crazily right now spitting them all out.

EDITED CUZ I CHANGED MY MIND--To do individual PMs is gonna take me forever, so here's the change.

FOR EVERYONE WHO'S DONE THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX/IVERMECTIN TEST...whether or not you've posted before, I need final updates in the below format BUT Don't Post them only here!!! PLEASE.....E-mail your responses to me at chocomare@bellsouth.net (chocomare@bellsouth.net) :)

AGE OF HORSE
BREED OF HORSE
SEX OF HORSE

--List all Pre-administration symptoms that lead to suspicion of NTW infestation, with length of time if you can. Try your best to keep it the report clean and "clinical."

DATE OF 1st DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

DATE OF 2nd DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

If you've done post 2nd DD deworming (like weekly Ivermectin or 3rd DD), list dates, info.

Offer final conclusion and how you plan to change your deworming program going forward.



Thanks for your cooperation. :)

Ambrey
Oct. 1, 2008, 10:31 AM
Ambrey- Yes, this vet says what scientists and researchers call Neck Threadworms is not Onchocerca. I wish I had written down the "real " name of what she calls NTW. I am thinking this may be why people are reporting resistance when they broach the topic of NTW with their vets. According to this vet NTW are ONLY shown to be relevant in foals and are not known to cause skin symptoms. Again according to this vet, Onchocerca is another matter and can cause any number of skin or eye symptoms. I have no idea if this info is specific to this vet or all vets. However, it does make me wonder if this is why some of the info is confusing. Could it be that some people (vets and /or us regular people) are calling them the same pest and some people are calling them 2 different pests?

All I can say is that if you google "neck threadworms" all of the references identify them as Onchocerca. I know that in this thread there was some talk of another pest, but they didn't call them neck threadworms.

gabz
Oct. 1, 2008, 10:39 AM
Ambrey- Yes, this vet says what scientists and researchers call Neck Threadworms is not Onchocerca. I wish I had written down the "real " name of what she calls NTW. I am thinking this may be why people are reporting resistance when they broach the topic of NTW with their vets. According to this vet NTW are ONLY shown to be relevant in foals and are not known to cause skin symptoms. Again according to this vet, Onchocerca is another matter and can cause any number of skin or eye symptoms. I have no idea if this info is specific to this vet or all vets. However, it does make me wonder if this is why some of the info is confusing. Could it be that some people (vets and /or us regular people) are calling them the same pest and some people are calling them 2 different pests?

MapleShade.
here's a link
http://www.extension.org/pages/Strongyloides_(Threadworm)_in_horses
INTESTINAL threadworms are strongyloides and these are the Threadworms that are troublesome in foals.

Neck THreadworms are
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/71804.htm

I made the same mistake not realizing there are 2 different kinds of threadworms.

Peg
Oct. 1, 2008, 10:52 AM
I'm confused. Say I had a foal with slightly contracted tendons, would a DD help with that condition? There are no skin problems. Peg

JB
Oct. 1, 2008, 11:45 AM
Some of you wanted to know why my vet does not think DD of equimax or Iver is suggested. I briefly got a moment to ask her a little more about her opinion of NOT to DD. In short, she said NTW are not a problem kind of what the above poster said. She also said 1 dose is sufficient (assuming you are giving the proper amt based on weight) and that continuing to give it will cause a resistance in the future. Yes, the horse will not die of DD (though some prone to colic could) resistance is a major problem. The other classes of wormers are used to DD but, not this class. Just her opinion.

Thanks for the followup :)

However, if your vet is saying that NTW, aka onchocerca cervalis, are not a problem, then while it may be the case that she has never seem them be an issue, or has always attributed the type of itching and eruptions described here to allergies, etc, it is not true that they are "not a problem", as testamented by this very thread. Many of the horses being DD'd here, with positive results, *had been* on a regular deworming program for years, with ivermectin being in the picture. So, "1 dose" has NOT been sufficient. Could it be for some horses? I think very likely it is. But it appears to not be sufficient for some horses who either have a bit of a resistance going on, or who, somewhere in their previous life, ended up with a higher than normal load, and 1 dose doesn't cut it.

Other classes of dewormers weren't originally intended for dd'ing ;) But someone discovered that a dd of pyrantel pamoate was effective against tapeworms, and now it's a common protocol ;) I'm sure fenbendazole wasn't originally intended to be dd'd for 5 days in a row, but someone figured out that protocol was effective against encycsted stages.

JB
Oct. 1, 2008, 11:46 AM
I'm confused. Say I had a foal with slightly contracted tendons, would a DD help with that condition? There are no skin problems. Peg


Would it help? More like - could it help? Sure, it could, if that is the cause of the contraction. But there are other causes of that, so just doing a dd isn't a guarantee.

ChocoMare
Oct. 1, 2008, 11:53 AM
I'm confused. Say I had a foal with slightly contracted tendons, would a DD help with that condition? There are no skin problems. Peg

Peg,

Please please please!!!! PM little D. She is my farrier/trimmer who's done her own "experiments" with combining DD Equimax and Trimming on contracted foals. She is the only one I know of who's done this and seen success. If you want her phone number, lemme know and I'll gladly pass it on. She can talk you through the process and tell you exactly what she's done/witnessed.

ETA: Thanks gabz for showing me my OOPs! :D I fixed it!!! :yes:

ChocoMare
Oct. 1, 2008, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the followup :)

However, if your vet is saying that NTW, aka onchocerca cervalis, are not a problem, then while it may be the case that she has never seem them be an issue, or has always attributed the type of itching and eruptions described here to allergies, etc, it is not true that they are "not a problem", as testamented by this very thread. Many of the horses being DD'd here, with positive results, *had been* on a regular deworming program for years, with ivermectin being in the picture. So, "1 dose" has NOT been sufficient. Could it be for some horses? I think very likely it is. But it appears to not be sufficient for some horses who either have a bit of a resistance going on, or who, somewhere in their previous life, ended up with a higher than normal load, and 1 dose doesn't cut it.

Other classes of dewormers weren't originally intended for dd'ing ;) But someone discovered that a dd of pyrantel pamoate was effective against tapeworms, and now it's a common protocol ;) I'm sure fenbendazole wasn't originally intended to be dd'd for 5 days in a row, but someone figured out that protocol was effective against encycsted stages.

And keep in mind that we're going after Onchocerca Reticulatas... same family but a cousin.

Maple Shade
Oct. 1, 2008, 11:55 AM
gabz- yep I get it. I'm just saying where my communication with my vet failed. It was a semantic issue between us. We were talking apples and oranges and it took me awhile to figure it out. I thought perhaps others were having this problem too. I do realize that some of the differences in opinions out there are simply ignorance or a simple difference in opinion. It does seem clear that the published research may differ from what we are all reporting here. However, with my vet we were misfiring on our communication. So, basically all I'm saying is if your vet (and I mean whoever's vet...not anyone in particular) looks at you like you are on crack it might be worth going into more detail. Maybe you are having a similar problem.

WalkInTheWoods
Oct. 1, 2008, 12:05 PM
Ok DD Equimax Protocol Testers. I'm gonna need your help. I just finished the first clean up of the posts. My printer is running crazily right now spitting them all out.

EDITED CUZ I CHANGED MY MIND--To do individual PMs is gonna take me forever, so here's the change.

FOR EVERYONE WHO'S DONE THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX/IVERMECTIN TEST...whether or not you've posted before, I need final updates in the below format

Chocomare - Do you just want email responses from those who have finished the DD protocol? I am just starting it and won't have results for at least a month. Should i send my experiences to you in a month or so ?

ChocoMare
Oct. 1, 2008, 01:17 PM
WITW: I'll take whatever anyone wants to offer. The more people who join in on this, the WAY better since we'll have more data to offer. Feel free to start by reporting your info here so others can "watch" what happens. Then when you feel you're done and the horses are better, post a final update here AND e-mail it to me. Thanks!!!!

gabz
Oct. 1, 2008, 01:18 PM
Peg,

Please please please!!!! PM litle d. She is my farrier/trimmer who's done her own "experiments" with combining DD Equimax and Trimming on contracted foals. She is the only one I know of who's done this and seen success. If you want her phone number, lemme know and I'll gladly pass it on. She can talk you through the process and tell you exactly what she's done/witnessed.

ACtually, she posts as little D

If you search this thread > Advanced, you can search for her messages.

Maple Shade
Oct. 1, 2008, 08:03 PM
Could somone re post the dosing info for liquid Ivermectin? I'm having trouble finding it. Am I correct in remembering that you cannot feed the pour on Ivermectin that's marketed for cattle? TIA

Robie
Oct. 2, 2008, 03:18 PM
Hello. I am new to this forum, but have read this thread with interest as I have a Haflinger gelding with "sweet-itch". I followed the suggested protocol of DDE two weeks apart and would like to report that my gelding is worse after the second dose. He has gray bumps on his neck and chest and a few on his face. After the second DDE he developed a welt that first appeared on his side, then seemed to move to his hindquarter. Interestingly, only one welt at a time. Also, he is very itchy at the front of his hock joints. So.....DD with Ivermectin next? Anything I can do to help him get thru this??

Thanks
Robie

Simkie
Oct. 2, 2008, 03:24 PM
Could somone re post the dosing info for liquid Ivermectin? I'm having trouble finding it. Am I correct in remembering that you cannot feed the pour on Ivermectin that's marketed for cattle? TIA

This is what I have used.

http://www.atozvetsupply.com/Eqvalan-Oral-Liquid-RX-p/71-eqvalan-or.htm

1 cc per 110 pounds.

gabz
Oct. 2, 2008, 04:03 PM
Hello. I am new to this forum, but have read this thread with interest as I have a Haflinger gelding with "sweet-itch". I followed the suggested protocol of DDE two weeks apart and would like to report that my gelding is worse after the second dose. He has gray bumps on his neck and chest and a few on his face. After the second DDE he developed a welt that first appeared on his side, then seemed to move to his hindquarter. Interestingly, only one welt at a time. Also, he is very itchy at the front of his hock joints. So.....DD with Ivermectin next? Anything I can do to help him get thru this??

Thanks
Robie

Robie - You should be able to use a SINGLE, full dose of Ivermectin one week after the last DD. If he is still having lumps and bumps appear, do ANOTHER single Ivermectin dose one week later. You can double dose the Ivermectin at any time too, if you think it will help him faster.

You can give him some anti-histamine (Bendadryl) to ease his itching. Contact your vet for dosing.

So far as the welt that is moving. One of my horses had those too. Except I didn't realize what it was. I thought they were scars!!! UGH... they are/were about 4 inches long. His were on his chest. Another horse of mine had some small greyish spots on him after the second DD. They disappeared in the following weeks. Then, he had a small oval area appear on the inside of one front leg... within a few days, that "scab" fell away.

Be sure you are giving the correct amount of Ivermectin. I, along with some others, realized we were underdosing.

gabz
Oct. 2, 2008, 04:39 PM
This is what I have used.

http://www.atozvetsupply.com/Eqvalan-Oral-Liquid-RX-p/71-eqvalan-or.htm

1 cc per 110 pounds.
When I was looking for this product, I came across this September 2008 warning: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/CVMupdate_Eqvalan.htm



September 9, 2008
FDA Alerts Veterinarians to New Directions for Eqvalan® (ivermectin) Liquid for Horses

The FDA’s Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) is alerting veterinarians of revised directions for Eqvalan® (ivermectin) Liquid for Horses. CVM has received a small number of reports of precipitate forming in opened or leaky bottles. As a result of these reports, the directions for use will now instruct that the contents of the bottles be used within four (4) hours of opening and any unused product, or unused diluted product be discarded. Merial Limited, the manufacturer of Eqvalan, is also adding the following instructions regarding the proper disposal:

Disposal: DO NOT FLUSH or pour unused medication in toilet, sink, or drain. Mix unused medication with cat litter, sawdust (or other material that absorbs the medication), then place in a sealed container (e.g., plastic bag) BEFORE tossing in trash for disposal in a landfill or by incineration.
Veterinarians should examine the product for precipitate before use. If a precipitate is found, veterinarians should contact Merial Veterinary Technical Solutions at 1-888-637-4251, option 3.
Products generic to Eqvalan should also be examined for precipitate before use. If a precipitate is found in a generic product, the manufacturer of that product should be contacted.
For additional information, please see: http://us.merial.com/pdf/FinalLetterEQVALANLetter-Final.pdf



Precipitation is the formation of a solid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid) in a solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solution) during a chemical reaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_reaction). When the reaction occurs, the solid formed is called the precipitate, and the liquid remaining above the solid is called the supernate.


(Gee, I always thought "precipitate" was when it rained or snowed. Who knew?):confused:

gabz
Oct. 2, 2008, 04:49 PM
From this site: http://www.drugs.com/vet/eqvalan-liquid.html


Information For Horse Owners

Owners should be advised of the potential that swelling and itching reactions may occur after treatment with EQVALAN Liquid in horses carrying heavy infections of neck threadworm microfilariae, Onchocerca sp. These reactions are most likely the result of microfilariae dying in large numbers. Symptomatic treatment may be advisable.
Healing of summer sores involving extensive tissue changes may require other therapy in conjunction with EQVALAN Liquid. Reinfection, and measures for its prevention, should also be considered.
Owners should be advised to consult their veterinarian if these conditions do not improve.

Equalvan is Ivemectin in liquid form. no different than Ivermectin paste. See this description of Ivermectin Paste.
http://www.drugs.com/vet/ivermectin-paste-1-87.html


Information For Horse Owners
Swelling and itching reactions after treatment with Ivermectin Paste 1.87% (ivermectin) have occurred in horses carrying heavy infections of neck threadworm (Onchocerca sp. microfilariae). These reactions were most likely the result of microfilariae dying in large numbers. Symptomatic treatment may be advisable. Consult your veterinarian should any such reactions occur. Healing of summer sores involving extensive tissue changes may require other appropriate therapy in conjunction with treatment with Ivermectin Paste 1.87% (ivermectin). Reinfection, and measures for its prevention, should also be considered. Consult your veterinarian if the condition does not improve.

gabz
Oct. 2, 2008, 04:50 PM
Could somone re post the dosing info for liquid Ivermectin? I'm having trouble finding it. Am I correct in remembering that you cannot feed the pour on Ivermectin that's marketed for cattle? TIA

Pour On type goes on the OUTSIDE of cattle.

Maple Shade
Oct. 2, 2008, 08:34 PM
Gabz- water came out my nose when I read your response! :lol:
I have a kid that works for me that has one of my TBs. Her parents insist that she can use the pour on cattle Ivermec on her TB. I told them the same thing you wrote here and they looked at me like I was a princess alien from outer space! :winkgrin:
Definitely thanks for the giggle. And REALLY thanks for the links!

JB
Oct. 3, 2008, 09:22 AM
(Gee, I always thought "precipitate" was when it rained or snowed. Who knew?):confused:
Precipitation ;)

Interesting about the precipitate (solids coming out of suspension). I've never used liquid ivermec. I need to read up on that, as surely it's lots cheaper than paste, and can be fed instead of stuffed:lol:

gabz
Oct. 3, 2008, 09:47 AM
(Gee, I always thought "precipitate" was when it rained or snowed. Who knew?):confused:


Precipitation ;) :lol: (I checked in Websters and there's even more definitions for precipitate besides the chemical and rain/snow ones)

:winkgrin::lol: Obviously, you've not dealt with Fun with International English translation... oh, there's one now!! :D translate > translation. Or... one I see frequently from my European colleagues edit > edition ;) and then one from India... update > updation. :eek:

Oh what fun.... I always love it when I get an email asking me to "do the needful" .... it always causes a little brain wrinkle to Stephen King's book "Needful Things" ...
ackkkk... :no:

Robie
Oct. 3, 2008, 02:19 PM
Robie - You should be able to use a SINGLE, full dose of Ivermectin one week after the last DD. If he is still having lumps and bumps appear, do ANOTHER single Ivermectin dose one week later. You can double dose the Ivermectin at any time too, if you think it will help him faster.

You can give him some anti-histamine (Bendadryl) to ease his itching. Contact your vet for dosing.

So far as the welt that is moving. One of my horses had those too. Except I didn't realize what it was. I thought they were scars!!! UGH... they are/were about 4 inches long. His were on his chest. Another horse of mine had some small greyish spots on him after the second DD. They disappeared in the following weeks. Then, he had a small oval area appear on the inside of one front leg... within a few days, that "scab" fell away.

Be sure you are giving the correct amount of Ivermectin. I, along with some others, realized we were underdosing.

Thanks so much !! Welt is better today. His were also about 4 inches long. I'll get in touch with my vet re the Benadryl...good idea...and worm him again w/Ivermectin. If this treatment does the trick I will be dancing on the ceiling with delight as I have tried everything I can to relieve this horse.

pyrgirl
Oct. 3, 2008, 02:25 PM
I just thought I'd post an update on our experience with all this.
My Arabian, Aslan, has had problems with summer belly sores for about 3 years. Last year I used a belly fly sheet which helped him heal up totally. He wore the sheet 24/7. This year I started him on garlic and spirulina. The problem seemed much less and he only wore the sheet for a few weeks. I also began to deworm more often and used Ivermectin in the middle of the summer. Unfortunately he seemed to have more problems on the withers and neck this summer. My mini horses have no belly or neck problems. However, they are on a daily feed thru dewormer (Strongid C). When I heard about the NTWs I decided to try the dewormer dosing. We started with 1.5 dose of Ivermectin and it seemed to help the neck areas and he was calmer. Two weeks later we did 1.5 dose of Equimax. I hesitated to do a full double dose since a single dose of Equimax is already twice as much chemical as Zimecterin Gold which is what we used in the past. After two weeks of that his whole coat was smooth and clear and even the belly was nearly healed. At the same time, we had some cooler temps. so the fly situation is also drastically improved so I can't tell how much is the dewormer and how much is the fly population. I'm considering doing a double dose of Ivermectin one more time since it is now two weeks after the Equimax.
I also did a 1.5 dose of Equimax on the minis since they were due for a tapeworm treatment. I'm not sure if my horse has NTWs or allergies or both. The worming seems to help, though.

JB
Oct. 3, 2008, 04:18 PM
Ok, outing myself here :D I did try the DD. My WB gelding really didn't have issues, other than tail rubbing in the Spring - not since then. My TB mare seems to regularly try to rub on her stall corners when she's in for a few hours. So I thouht, what the heck.

I didn't see any changes.

Except...

My WB gelding has this spot low on his left side. I cannot swear it was or wasn't there before the first DD (which was probably a month ago, so at least 2 weeks since the 2nd DD, I didn't do anything beyond that). At first I thought it was just a loss of hair due to one nasty fly bite. But it isn't getting better. And it's not just 1 lump, it's "1" lump that's really several smaller lumps. And he does NOT like me messing with it. It's not in any area that is affected by riding - way behind my heel, closer to the flank, low where the belly starts to curve under. It's just not changing. I've seen sarcoids and I highly doubt this is one, but I can't rule that out.

Thoughts?

gabz
Oct. 3, 2008, 04:59 PM
Is it grayish and teeny bumpies almost like goosebumps? Yup. my yellow horse had a few places like that. he didn't like me touching them either.

Put some ichthamol on it.

JB
Oct. 3, 2008, 05:04 PM
gabz, yes!! What IS it? It is little creepy crawlies that need to be outed with Equimax?

gabz
Oct. 3, 2008, 05:26 PM
gabz, yes!! What IS it? It is little creepy crawlies that need to be outed with Equimax?

I ***think*** it is dead creepy crawlies - they come to the surface when they die. Remember - the microfilarae are those teeny teeny teeny little things - remember the picture of the one coming OUT the black flie's antenna?
Think of how small a black fly is. Then think about how small the antenna is, then think of that little icky thing.

blech blech blech... all over the keyboard.

The "welts" I ***think*** are migrating adult onchocerca. Since the ones on my B&W horse come and go... The adult females can grow to 30 cm which is nearly 1 foot!!!

Makes me want to give my horses MORE DEWORMER.... (they are due in a couple of days. LOL)

Tiger Horse
Oct. 3, 2008, 05:33 PM
Did second DD on 9/16 - neck has now cleared up beautifully - no more lumps or bumps after a rash of them immediately following second DD. However, the side of her face is not improving. Still round little hairless areas esp on the left cheek . . . any suggestions? I've been putting Lucky Braids Itch Salve on it for a few days . . .

JB
Oct. 3, 2008, 05:37 PM
I ***think*** it is dead creepy crawlies - they come to the surface when they die.
That's what I was afraid of. Rio has NEVER had anything like this. Bald spots, sure, but never "goosebumpy" (great description, fits perfectly) and never bothersome.


Remember - the microfilarae are those teeny teeny teeny little things - remember the picture of the one coming OUT the black flie's antenna?
Think of how small a black fly is. Then think about how small the antenna is, then think of that little icky thing.

blech blech blech... all over the keyboard.

Yes, I was the one who posted that pictures link :cool: *hurls*


The "welts" I ***think*** are migrating adult onchocerca. Since the ones on my B&W horse come and go... The adult females can grow to 30 cm which is nearly 1 foot!!!
Yeah, if I ever saw something 12" long coming out my horses that wasn't a tail hair that got sucked up their butt, I think I'd run screaming.

gabz
Oct. 3, 2008, 05:44 PM
But yeah... if those things are 12 inches long... how big around are they?

ANd THOSE are the nasty things that make those big "knots" in the horse's neck!! !??? ew ew ew...

Tiger Horse... maybe begin 1 dose of Ivermectin 1 week after the last DD Equimax. And maybe use something other than the Lucky Braids salve. It may not have enough ummph to help your horse at this stage. Ichthamol is about $8 - $12 a tub. Or maybe some people aloe-vera gel.

pyrgirl
Oct. 3, 2008, 07:32 PM
I thought I'd post about our experience with this stuff after 1 month.

My horse, Aslan, has had bad belly sores for the last three years. Last year he wore a belly fly sheet 24/7 and he healed up completely. This spring I started him on garlic and spirulina and it seemed to be less troublesome. He only needed to wear the sheet for a few weeks, but this year his neck and withers had lots of problems. I did begin to deworm him more frequently this summer and happened to use Ivermectin in July. My two minis have had no problems. They are on a daily feed thru dewormer (StrongidC). When I learned about NTWs I decided to try the double dosing stuff. We started with 1.5 dose of Ivermectin. That seemed to bring him some relief for the neck and his attitude was calmer. Two weeks later we did 1.5 dose of Equimax. That continued the improvement and the belly was healing. At the same time, the weather was cooling down and the flies were much less so it was hard to tell what was helping the most. BTW, I didn't do a full double dose of Equimas because we previously used Zimecterin Gold and that contains on half the amount of chemical than Equimax so a double dose of Equimax would have been 4X our normal amount. I was a bit leary of that so we went for 1.5 dose. It is now 2 weeks after the Equimax and I'm considering doing another round of either Ivermectin or Equimax. I also did the two minis on 1.5 dose of Equimax since they were due for tapeworm treatment anyway.

In general, I still don't know if my horse has NTWs or allergies or both.
I'm leaning toward both at this point. I'm also wondering if putting him on a daily dewormer would help.
What do you all think?

Peggy
Oct. 3, 2008, 08:17 PM
(Gee, I always thought "precipitate" was when it rained or snowed. Who knew?):confused:

As we say in chemistry, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Precipitation is the process. Precipitate is the verb and the noun."The precipitate will precipitate by the process of precipitation.":D

JB
Oct. 3, 2008, 08:25 PM
BTW, I didn't do a full double dose of Equimas because we previously used Zimecterin Gold and that contains on half the amount of chemical than Equimax so a double dose of Equimax would have been 4X our normal amount.

Nope ;) It's not exactly the same amount on a dose for dose basis, but a DD of Equimax is not 4x a 1.5 dose of ZG.

pyrgirl
Oct. 3, 2008, 08:28 PM
Nope ;) It's not exactly the same amount on a dose for dose basis, but a DD of Equimax is not 4x a 1.5 dose of ZG.:)

No -- a single dose of Equimax is twice the amount of a single dose of Zimecterin Gold. So we went for a 1.5 dose of Equimax. That was the equivalent of 3 times the Zimecterin Gold. :-)

:)

JB
Oct. 3, 2008, 08:33 PM
How do you figure a single dose of Equimax is 2x a single dose of ZG?

JB
Oct. 3, 2008, 08:50 PM
:)

No -- a single dose of Equimax is twice the amount of a single dose of Zimecterin Gold. So we went for a 1.5 dose of Equimax. That was the equivalent of 3 times the Zimecterin Gold. :-)

:)
Simkie was kind enough to do the calculation of this back on post 556 of this thread:


Zimectrin Gold: 1.55% ivermectin, 7.75% praz, 7.35 g total weight, treats 1250lbs

0.0155 x 7.35 g=0.113925 g/1250lbs=0.00009114 g/lb=91.14 microgram/lb
0.0775 x 7.35 g=0.569625 g/1250lbs=0.0004557 g/lb=455.7 microgram/lb

Equimax: 1.87% Ivermectin, 14.03% praz, 6.42 g total weight, treats 1320 lbs

0.0187 x 6.42 g=0.120054 g/1320 lbs=0.00009095 g/lb=90.95 microgram/lb
0.1403 x 6.42 g=0.900726 g/1320 lbs=0.00068237 g/lb=682.4 microgram/lb

ZG is 91.14mcg/lb ivermectin, E is 90.95
ZG is 455.7mcg/lb praziquantel, E is 682.4

Nowhere near 2x on a dosage basis.

pattnic
Oct. 3, 2008, 09:38 PM
JB and Simkie are right... just trust them on this (experience speaking, here!)

jumpingpercheron
Oct. 3, 2008, 10:49 PM
I gave my mare her 2nd double dose a week ago today. She is continuing to improve! I posted pics after the first dd of her hair growing back in where she was itching little bald spots. I forgot to take a picture of her face. She was itching her forehead pretty good too. Today I noticed she has not one SINGLE scratch on her forhead!! She hasn't been itching it at all!!!!!!

pyrgirl
Oct. 4, 2008, 01:03 PM
JB and Simkie are right... just trust them on this (experience speaking, here!)

wow, you are right! I was just going by the percentages.
Now I feel alot better about doing a full double dose.
I may use the Equimax again this weekend.

tmo0hul
Oct. 4, 2008, 05:41 PM
I've been following this thread very closely. We have a 2 yr old TB colt in training at the track who was due for a worming. He has a scurfy spot on his side that we have treated with just about everything without success. So I decided to try a DD of Ivermectin. There was no reaction whatsoever and the scurf has not improved. I will not be DD'ing him again, as he has been on a previously strict schedule.

My riding horse is a TB/Belgian 5 yr old mare who, after reading this thread, I realized has been getting under-dosed for at least 18 months. She's never had any signs of being wormy - great coat, carries good weight year-round, not itchy. Since it was time anyhow, I hit her with one tube of E'max and one tube of Ivermectin about a week ago. I noticed today that she has oozing bumps on her right side that she did not have before. I will give her two tubes of ivermectin again next week (not quite a DD - as I estimate her weight at 1500#). From here on out, she'll just get 2 tubes of dewormer each time (unless it's Quest).

JB
Oct. 4, 2008, 06:07 PM
wow, you are right! I was just going by the percentages.

And that, my dear, is your initiation into % vs amount fed vs the combination :winkgrin:

JB
Oct. 4, 2008, 06:12 PM
I've been following this thread very closely. We have a 2 yr old TB colt in training at the track who was due for a worming. He has a scurfy spot on his side that we have treated with just about everything without success. So I decided to try a DD of Ivermectin. There was no reaction whatsoever and the scurf has not improved. I will not be DD'ing him again, as he has been on a previously strict schedule.

Just keep in mind that several horses on this thread had been on a previously strict schedule, didn't see much/anything after the first dd, and did see resolution or improvement after a 2nd dd. I'm not saying to, or not to do the 2nd dd, just fyi :)

gabz
Oct. 4, 2008, 08:56 PM
I keep wondering if smearing the ivermectin directly on a scurfy spot does anything? Do you think it would burn? If it's safe enough for internal, why not external?

But I agree with JB. Do a DD dose of Ivermectin again and you might be surprized. The stuff I was reading yesterday (I didn't all the links I came across) said that after the dose of Ivermectin/Equimax - there could be die-off for 2 - 8 weeks.

JB
Oct. 4, 2008, 09:49 PM
Good info gabz, I think I wasn't realizing that die-off could be on-going for that long, but it makes perfect sense since ivermectin remains viable in the body for 8 week.

I think I may do another DD on this horse and hold off a couple of weeks on the power pack. The spot is still there, still uncomfortable - it is not at all like any other spot he's ever had in his entire life.

Hannahsmom
Oct. 5, 2008, 07:47 AM
Beau's isn't dandruff, it's crusty. No hair. I've tried medicated shampoos in the past, nothing helped. So i'm leaning toward these darn NTWs:(

Oh, and I don't think I'm going to be getting out to the barn today, but I'll definitely take pictures when I'm out there tomorrow.

Did this ever get resolved? I couldn't find that anyone answered you on this. EqTrainer?

I took the plunge myself on my "itchy" horse who has had other issues this summer. I did the double ivermectin, two weeks later double Equimax (crossing my fingers). After the Equimax we got scabs along bottom of neck and midlline of stomach. Then another double of Ivermectin. But the elbows aren't clearing up at all and are still a scabby/ calloused/ dandruffy patch. Simkie or anyone else want to chime in before I call the vet out? This is NOT from laying down, of that I'm sure.

tmo0hul
Oct. 5, 2008, 10:54 AM
Just keep in mind that several horses on this thread had been on a previously strict schedule, didn't see much/anything after the first dd, and did see resolution or improvement after a 2nd dd. I'm not saying to, or not to do the 2nd dd, just fyi :)

I know - but he had a 5 day Panacur in February, and a full tube of E'max in May (he weighed ~1100 lbs) and now the DD ivermectin. As a racehorse in training he is not exposed to manure of other horses - so he's pretty low risk.

mybeau1999
Oct. 5, 2008, 06:25 PM
Did this ever get resolved? I couldn't find that anyone answered you on this. EqTrainer?

I took the plunge myself on my "itchy" horse who has had other issues this summer. I did the double ivermectin, two weeks later double Equimax (crossing my fingers). After the Equimax we got scabs along bottom of neck and midlline of stomach. Then another double of Ivermectin. But the elbows aren't clearing up at all and are still a scabby/ calloused/ dandruffy patch. Simkie or anyone else want to chime in before I call the vet out? This is NOT from laying down, of that I'm sure.

Nope... It's not resolved yet. I just bought 2 tubes of ivermectin to DD him with. I was going to wait until we got him home so I could watch for any reactions, but lately he's had a REALLY goopy eye and I want these little buggers out! So one day this week when I can hang out at the barn for while I'm going to DD him and watch for a reaction.

I am afraid at what my BO will say, she's not the most supportive... unless it's "tried and true" in her mind. And she might tell me I have to get the vet out to look at the bumps if he does have eruptions... and I just don't have money to fork over right now. That is one thing that makes me hesitant to do this... but I don't know how long it will be before he's home... hopefully 2 months? can this wait that long?

mhtokay
Oct. 5, 2008, 07:33 PM
I keep wondering if smearing the ivermectin directly on a scurfy spot does anything? Do you think it would burn? If it's safe enough for internal, why not external?

But I agree with JB. Do a DD dose of Ivermectin again and you might be surprized. The stuff I was reading yesterday (I didn't all the links I came across) said that after the dose of Ivermectin/Equimax - there could be die-off for 2 - 8 weeks.

Actually, i have smeared ivermectin paste on sweet itch belly spots in the past with good results.
The day I DD the Ivermectin for the 1st 3 (had it on hand and in a hurry, ya know), i smeared some extra on a belly of a different horse. Her spot got better until the Equimax came in the mail and she got her double dose of that. then it broke out again bigger and angrier.

ChocoMare
Oct. 6, 2008, 08:23 AM
TO ALL THE NEW FOLKS WHO'VE TRIED THE PROTOCOL... a reminder:

FOR EVERYONE WHO'S DONE THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX/IVERMECTIN TEST...whether or not you've posted before, I need final updates in the below format BUT Don't Post them only here!!! PLEASE.....E-mail your responses to me at chocomare@bellsouth.net (chocomare@bellsouth.net) :)

AGE OF HORSE
BREED OF HORSE
SEX OF HORSE

--List all Pre-administration symptoms that lead to suspicion of NTW infestation, with length of time if you can. Try your best to keep it the report clean and "clinical."

DATE OF 1st DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

DATE OF 2nd DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

If you've done post 2nd DD deworming (like weekly Ivermectin or 3rd DD), list dates, info.

Offer final conclusion and how you plan to change your deworming program going forward.

railmom
Oct. 6, 2008, 09:00 AM
Has anyone had coughing post dd? I dd emax on a filly that is a bit contracted. She has an itchy belly mid line and a very mild cough. Just wondered if anyone else has seen this?

pyrgirl
Oct. 6, 2008, 10:24 AM
I went ahead and did a third round of 1.5 Equimax on my horse since he still has one sore on his belly. One thing I noticed - lots of healing going on around the eyes!! All the itchy places are healing up there. Also alot of dandruff coming off him lately. And he seems so happy!!!

pyrgirl
Oct. 6, 2008, 10:37 AM
Has anyone had coughing post dd? I dd emax on a filly that is a bit contracted. She has an itchy belly mid line and a very mild cough. Just wondered if anyone else has seen this?

Well now that's interesting. I hadn't thought of it before. I just did a 1.5 dose on a filly (mini) who has had a cough for years. She didn't have any itch problems but was due for the tapeworm treatment and I increased the dose a bit this time. Haven't heard her cough lately.

gabz
Oct. 6, 2008, 12:32 PM
Actually, i have smeared ivermectin paste on sweet itch belly spots in the past with good results.
The day I DD the Ivermectin for the 1st 3 (had it on hand and in a hurry, ya know), i smeared some extra on a belly of a different horse. Her spot got better until the Equimax came in the mail and she got her double dose of that. then it broke out again bigger and angrier.

Thanks for that info...

So here's MY take on the worsening before it gets better. The nasty things have found a place to exit - as we know, belly skin is "thinner" than many other places, so if that's the easiest place to exit and also where the midges bite the most and leave the nasties, then when we DD, that's where the nasties are going to exit and leave the worst tissue damage.

I'm thinking that saving any small dabs of dewormer to apply a week or two later to the scurfy places might be helpful? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hey JB.. YOU try it. LOL...

JB
Oct. 6, 2008, 12:46 PM
I'm thinking that saving any small dabs of dewormer to apply a week or two later to the scurfy places might be helpful? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hey JB.. YOU try it. LOL...
LOL, I never have any leftover I could save :( Although, a generic ivermectin at about $3 could be bought for just that purpose.

Ambrey
Oct. 6, 2008, 12:53 PM
Anybody else's horse slightly off their feed after the 2nd DD?

gabz
Oct. 6, 2008, 12:54 PM
Yeah - that's true. Pretty inexpensive skin treatment. I would NOT use it around the eyes though.

If I had any crusty places left I would be tempted to try Ivermectin on one spot and Icthamol on anther.

Lieslot
Oct. 6, 2008, 01:14 PM
Well another update on my guys.
After my first DD scare, I stayed away from DD, but felt it was best (eventhough not vet recommended) to do a single dose Ivermectin on both horses 7 days later and another single dose again 7 days later.

Result. Nothing abnormal in my grey horse. The other one, who originally coliced after DD, now has one lump, the size of an egg on his flank, just below his last ribs. Also some very mild corrugated skin in neck, but hard to tell due to winter coat. He is not showing any signs of itchiness.

So I'm now left wondering if I should continue single doses twice more or stop here. It's just so weird that this eggshaped lump appeared only a day after his 2nd single dose Ivermectin.
I'm having visions of this eggshaped lump being a curled up adult NTW.
So far on this thread I read only one person actually had the worm visibly come out of the body. So what happens if this lumps disappears on its own. Where did the contents go???

Also re-reading this extract, necropsies of horses after multiple doses, showed the adult NTW's where still alive. So go long do we have to keep going with the Ivermectin, months on end?
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=316524
Ivermectin paste formulation (200 micrograms/kg) was administered orally to 27 horses (13 Thoroughbreds and 14 of mixed breeding) to evaluate activity against adult Onchocerca spp in the ligamentum nuchae. Ages, known or estimated, of the horses ranged from 1 to 22 years. Single or multiple doses (1 to 5) of the drug were given to each horse. When multiple doses were administered, the intervals between treatments ranged from 7 to 92 days. At 27 to 171 days after initial treatment (single dose or first of multiple doses), the horses were killed. Some of the horses treated more than once were killed as soon as 7 days after the last treatment. At necropsy, Onchocerca spp were found in the ligamentum nuchae of 24 (89%) of the 27 horses. All of the specimens were pieces of worms, apparently adult, which appeared to be alive. The only noninfected horses were 2 to 3 years old. In 18 (75%) of the 24 infected horses, microfilariae, most being obviously viable, were found in the worm specimens or ligamentum nuchae.


I was also thinking the other night about how much more common sweet itch is in the Netherlands / England then in the US (as far as I've been able to pick up on). And I was also wondering if that is because those countries don't have permethrin based flysprays. Deet is allowed in the UK, not in the Netherlands, could this be why sweet itch spreads so quickly there, no effective means of midge control?
Then again I get so confused and doubtfull, as I know A LOT of research has gone into sweet itch in both these countries, so surely sufficient skin biopsies must have been taken there and would have revealed microfilariae??


My regular vet will be here this thursday and I'm very anxious to bring this up, but I fear I'll sound like a lunatic freaking out over a horse that suddenly has one lump. How credible will I sound? I'm pondering on ways to phrase my concern correctly to my vet, so at least I stand a chance of getting my concerns across.
I have no doubt that this lump appeared in direct relation to my 3rd ivermectin dose, but how to convince the vet?
I'd love to find out from people with sweet itch horses that had biopsies done what the findings where.

Also should we now be thinking along the lines that collagen granuloma could be linked to NTW, rather then just being written off as allergy to fly bites? As this article describes it. http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/illnesses_injuries/eqbumps2192/
Two-odd years ago my horse has a collagen granulama along his spine in the saddle area that took months to be re-absorped. And I always had a hard time accepting a fly had bitten him there, considering he's flysheeted day & night and when ridden the saddle sat in that place. Theoretically it is possible a fly got under the sheet, but still it always baffled me....

Argggg too many questions, too few answers.

gabz
Oct. 6, 2008, 01:38 PM
Can anyone tell me the difference between serum and collagen? aren't they quite similar?

I mean... I kept finding small serum pimples (my terminology)... the tiny bumps with yellow sticky stuff in them, after DD but also during high midge season.

atr
Oct. 6, 2008, 02:10 PM
I'm thinking we have two different issues with similar symptoms. Sweet itch is a reality, so are NTWs. One does not cancel the validity of the other. However, it makes misdiagnosis a very real possibility which should not be overlooked if the treatment protocol for one malady isn't working.

LMH
Oct. 6, 2008, 02:13 PM
What is interesting is NTW are passed through bites of the no-see-um biting midge (the cause of sweet itch allergy)-so maybe they are more related than at first glance?

Countryclips
Oct. 7, 2008, 08:27 AM
I called the University large animal hospital in my state to get there take on sweet itch. The Vet said that it is an allergy and has nothing to do with parasites. Ivermectin will not help and can be dangerous if given in high doses. The best way to get rid of it is antibiotics if they have an infection from itching and then Hydroxizine to ease the allergic reaction.

ChocoMare
Oct. 7, 2008, 08:32 AM
Hmmm, tell that to the (so far) 62 people who have reported easing and/or total cessation of all sweet itch symptoms after following the double dosing protocol.

***************

Keep those reports coming folks! :yes:

Lieslot
Oct. 7, 2008, 09:35 AM
Hmmm, tell that to the (so far) 62 people who have reported easing and/or total cessation of all sweet itch symptoms after following the double dosing protocol.


I am not denying any of this thread, let me start by that. And there has got to be something to it. I'm seeing weird things with my horse too, even though I am approaching it the weekly repeated single dose way at present rather then DD. Seriously I was stunned to see a lump on my guy the day after worming, in my mind definitely related, but how to convince a professional? :confused:

We haven't got any hard proof. If I'm correct so far no one has done biopsies. And I was wondering if the person with the worm sticking out, took pictures and had her/his vet involved in removing the worm or at least showed it to a vet and what the reaction was. This could all add to our credibility.

In the mean time I spoke to my vetfriend in England, and as I feared, her reaction was more like, uh uh, where did you get that idea from. She was also worried about possible resistance with repeated ivermectin doses.
I will bring it up with my regular vet, but I doubt I'll get far and expect to be adviced to stop the weekly ivermectin doses. I have a hard time going against professional advice, even though I'm getting more and more convinced they are missing something.
I'm really looking forward to the info going up on LMH-website, so I can refer vets to it, rather then asking them to read this thread, which none of them will have the time to browse through this all.

Are there any publications on ill effects or proven resistance with regards to ivermectin dosing? I haven't done any online searches for that yet, may do when I find some more time.

And any of our cases have their vets full backing with regards to the continuous/repeated ivermectin treatment? If so, how long did they recommend to continue the regimen?

JB
Oct. 7, 2008, 10:16 AM
Are there any publications on ill effects or proven resistance with regards to ivermectin dosing? I haven't done any online searches for that yet, may do when I find some more time.

It's easy to find the long-standing research that ivermectin at a 10x dose is safe.

Until recently, the only known resistance to ivermectin was ascarids (not full, but growing). More recently, there has been some issue with the strongyl eggs reappearing after 4 weeks instead of the normal 8. Not exactly the same type of resistance, as in those cases the kill rate was still 100%. But, it is something to be aware of. IIRC, that study was on a couple of farms and found that issue in some horses.

Both those studies are easy to find by searching The Horse, among others :) And, if search is working, I started a thread several months ago on the latter issue, and included the link to The Horse article.

Ambrey
Oct. 7, 2008, 10:19 AM
I agree that the scientific basis is iffy, but having gone through my own health issues I also know that sometimes that which is taught in medical (or veterinary) school is based on incomplete information.

These situations always remind me of human ulcer treatment. Ulcers were about stress and spicy foods for decades. One day some guy got the idea that there were bacteria involved... it took, I believe, over 10 years for the "theory" to take hold and spread. At first, the medical community thought those who treated ulcers with abx were nuts (even after several research studies supported it).

HandsomeBayFarm
Oct. 7, 2008, 11:49 AM
So I let the old guy out (26 yr old TB, Gam) out of his pasture last night and he went right over to the belly tree and started scratching. I have noticed that he hasnt been gaining a ton of weight despite a new feeding of a lot of calories. He did gain some after his first and second DD EM. Remember this was the nervous horse that would get spooked (at nothing) and refuse to eat. After treating him with the DDs he is 100% calmer and hasnt missed a meal since.

So I go and check out his belly and there are 2 giant crusty spot on his midline. Dont remember them being there last week.

I am thinking of hitting him again with a DD of EM. Or should I just but some topical Ivermectrin on the spots?

Here is his recap:
Aug 22 - DD em
Sept 1 - DD em
Sept 15 - DD iverm
Sept 22 - single iverm

Has anyone else had this go on this long? Dont get me wrong I am 100% convinced that he was loaded with NTWs. I also know that he has had them a very long time (just been treating him for itchy skin). So I am assuming that since they were so bad - it will take a bit for them to go bye-bye?

Lieslot
Oct. 7, 2008, 01:06 PM
Thanks JB, I'll do a search tonite, horse.com is pretty easy. :)
I think I might do another 2 single doses and probably stop there.

Also in colder climates, this time a year, are we likely to see a false negative?? As in, the microfilariae will go and sit in deeper tissues due to the cold, hence symptoms will not be noticeable until next spring, so one might assume x number of DD's or single doses was what was needed to fix it, but in reality the crawlies are just deeper in the tissues. Just a thought however.

Ambrey, totally agree with you. I just hope we won't have to wait 10 yrs until this gets some more attention.
Seriously if these adult critters stay alive in a horse's body lifelong, surely they are doing some damage somewhere and might likely be responsible for more things then just skin itch. Like abstracts referred to cervical vertebrae damage or affecting ligaments etc. If this is indeed more prevalent then diagnosed so far, then I hope some more professional attention will go into that direction "soon, sooner, soonest" ;). I want these crawlies dead!


Has anyone else had this go on this long? Dont get me wrong I am 100% convinced that he was loaded with NTWs. I also know that he has had them a very long time (just been treating him for itchy skin). So I am assuming that since they were so bad - it will take a bit for them to go bye-bye?
Will they ever go. If the adults stay alive, you'll probably never fully clear it up. I hope we can keep this thread going until next spring so we can see if the cases that had relief returned during the warmer months, in which case perhaps bi-weekly ivermectin all summer long could wear them out.

gabz
Oct. 7, 2008, 02:03 PM
HandsomeBayFarm... you might just watch and wait.

The treatment could show results for up to 8 weeks. I did DD, 2 weeks, DD, 1 week, then single dose.

I waited 4 weeks. Hit the "kids" last night with Quest. Have to check them tonight, but I think I saw a fresh dime-shaped grey/scaley spot on the yellow horse this morning (sort of dark - hard to tell).

The adults (females) will be shedding eggs continually. Those eggs will grow into adults unless they are killed. Since a standard treatment is adequate to kill the juvenile at 8 week intervals (using ivermectin or moxidectin), that's all you need to do.

The worst part is figuring out how to knock out the adults.

jetsmom
Oct. 7, 2008, 02:12 PM
Jet has NTW, and after a single dose of Ivermectin, will get 3 lumps about an inch below his crest, near the withers. So after his last dose of Iver. I waited a month and DD'd Ivermectin. He had a gucky eye, and now, a week later, it is gone. Bumps are also gone. I'm going to DD Equimax in a week.

Ambrey
Oct. 7, 2008, 03:30 PM
2nd DD was on Sunday.

Today my big guy has a welt! About the size of a silver dollar, on his flank.

I was so excited :)

JSwan
Oct. 7, 2008, 05:22 PM
ChocoMare -

Argh - I don't think I have exact dates! Do you want me to guesstimate that?

I think I can go through this thread and get pretty close.


TO ALL THE NEW FOLKS WHO'VE TRIED THE PROTOCOL... a reminder:

FOR EVERYONE WHO'S DONE THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX/IVERMECTIN TEST...whether or not you've posted before, I need final updates in the below format BUT Don't Post them only here!!! PLEASE.....E-mail your responses to me at chocomare@bellsouth.net (chocomare@bellsouth.net) :)

AGE OF HORSE
BREED OF HORSE
SEX OF HORSE

--List all Pre-administration symptoms that lead to suspicion of NTW infestation, with length of time if you can. Try your best to keep it the report clean and "clinical."

DATE OF 1st DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

DATE OF 2nd DD Administration -- present post symptoms, clearing, new symptoms, etc.

If you've done post 2nd DD deworming (like weekly Ivermectin or 3rd DD), list dates, info.

Offer final conclusion and how you plan to change your deworming program going forward.

gmorro
Oct. 7, 2008, 07:19 PM
Love this thread.
My horse came up with these bumps and scabs all the down his back and rump over the past 2 weeks. The poor guy has been so good about my picking and rubbing to remove them all....they are coming back daily! They are little scabs and some do not come off. Could this be the same thing? Nothing on the belly or underside. Has anyone had any adverse reaction to report on the double dosing? I am wondering if I should just ry and see if he gets relief from these pesky scabs.

SSFLandon
Oct. 7, 2008, 07:27 PM
I called the University large animal hospital in my state to get there take on sweet itch. The Vet said that it is an allergy and has nothing to do with parasites. Ivermectin will not help and can be dangerous if given in high doses. The best way to get rid of it is antibiotics if they have an infection from itching and then Hydroxizine to ease the allergic reaction.

Again, agreed. Same words from my vet in addition, she feels DD is not going to do anything different then 1 dose. It may in fact make the worms immune in the future. Yes, I know I've already said this.

Also, some asked about a biopsy on the lumps and what the results were. I have a horse with allergies. He will get lumps that will come and go on his back generally around the saddle area but, sometimes a little further forward or back. He has been allergy tested and has some. He also had a biopsy that came back that the lump was from an insect bite reaction. I've had a biopsy myself with the same result. He has been dewormed with 1 EM and he's fine. Nothing strange happened. We give him different meds that help his lumps.

I also want to throw this out...I dewormed an older mare who has laminitis (1 club foot only) with EM. She was going through an abcess at the time. She has not rotated in 3 years so the laminitis is at a stand still and she was very sound until the abcess. Within 24-36 hours she became EPM like. We are currently treating her for EPM and not sure if she'll make it. She has some cranial nerve damage present on her face too. I have a thread on here about it. Question/comment, I've heard and read about reactions. Wormer crossing blood barrier anyone else??. It can happen so be careful. My vet does not think my mare had this problem but, can't be totally certain. There is a lady on here who lost a horse from this potential problem with Quest.

Just consult your vet and don't go medicate everything because a forum says so. Be careful and smart. There are smart useul tips on here just take them for what they are worth.

amastrike
Oct. 7, 2008, 07:31 PM
This thread creeps me out big time. Makes me want to do the DD treatment even though they have no symptoms!!

Lori T
Oct. 7, 2008, 08:24 PM
I keep wondering if smearing the ivermectin directly on a scurfy spot does anything? Do you think it would burn? If it's safe enough for internal, why not external?

But I agree with JB. Do a DD dose of Ivermectin again and you might be surprized. The stuff I was reading yesterday (I didn't all the links I came across) said that after the dose of Ivermectin/Equimax - there could be die-off for 2 - 8 weeks.

I have been applying ivermectin, DMSO and fura ointment onto Tucker's habronema. I also rub some on some of his other bumps. You can get ivermectin (liquid) through your vet.

Dougal
Oct. 8, 2008, 08:40 AM
Hi everyone,

I have been reading this thread over the last couple of weeks with great interest, after a friend directed me here. :cool:

One of my boys has a constantly itchy mane and tail, with the associated sweet itch (called Queensland Itch here) type of hair loss around eyes/ears and down his face. I recall that he had some lesions on one shoulder quite a while back which were extremely tender (he hated you touching them) and had the crusty top which in retrospect I think disappeared after worming with Equest plus tape. He doesn't appear to have any lumps/lesions under his belly or elsewhere, though loves a scratch between his front legs. :)

Once again the advice from the vet was a single dose is sufficient, doubt it would be NTW (until I mentioned the lesions on his shoulder, which he sort of side stepped) and of course no-one will advise to double dose or acknowledge that this could kill the adult NTW's.

My question is twofold. I have here IMAX GOLD which has Active Constituents:

Ivermectin 10mg/mL and Praziquantel at 75mg/mL at a recommended dosage rate of 1ml/50kg liveweight.

How does this quantity/ratio stack up to the products you have used/recommended here?

What are the safety margins with these constituents?

I wormed them with the IG last week at well over their body weight, but nowhere near double and poor Patch is still itching like mad. :(

The other horse shows no sign of a problem despite being thinner skinned so to speak.

Your input and clarification would be appreciated.

Thanks!

EqTrainer
Oct. 8, 2008, 12:15 PM
It is hard to dispute, IMO, the data of over 60 people. With multiple horses. My control group is hovering around 40 horses right now. Few studies on anything involving horses has 100 horses participating in it!

Not to mention, I think it's cool that I finally have a probably answer to why I don't have skin issues out here, in spite of living in a near tropic environment w/horses who live out 24/7.

Re: the foal who was coughing? Round worms migrate into the lungs.

EqTrainer
Oct. 8, 2008, 12:19 PM
SSFLlandon - Try Marquis or Navigator. You said in another thread that you were using SMZ and the malarial drugs to treat EPM? Did your vet advise you to do that, too?

SSFLandon
Oct. 8, 2008, 01:22 PM
SSFLlandon - Try Marquis or Navigator. You said in another thread that you were using SMZ and the malarial drugs to treat EPM? Did your vet advise you to do that, too?

Yes, my vet and I have spoken about Marquis. She is very against Navigator and I'm not positive but, it may be off the market. A decision will be made soon whether to start it. The owner is unsure if she wants to spend the $$. It's a sad situation. She was a cheap mare meant for pleasure riding and has already had near $7000 easily of vet bills with the rotation, abscess, various bloodwork, now this situation. She is an older retired lady so it's alot of money. The vet is also still kind of trying to decided if the laminitis has worsened from the dex and that may not reverse itself. Finally, with the facial issues she may be too far gone to get enough out of using Marquis or may need more the 1 supply which financailly is not optional. We have spoken to other vets at the big hospitals as well for opinions. She is a rare case actually according ot them. It may not even be EPM. Thanks for you input.

EqTrainer
Oct. 8, 2008, 02:57 PM
That is indeed very very sad. I have heard from many people that deworming triggered a relapse of EPM in their horses. I hold my breath everytime we deworm the two I know who have had it but they were both given Marquis and rested appropriately and seem to have had a 100% cure. The SMZ protocol is so unreliable that I think I would never deworm or vaccinate a horse who had only been treated with that. It is so hard when owners either won't or cannot pay for proper treatment.

Dex is 100% counterindicated in laminitic horses and most people avoid it religiously in a horse who has been laminitic. So if the horse was given dex while laminitic, or even during what appeared to be an abcess incident, I would think it may have caused further problems. Suppressing the immune response during infection alone can be problematic. The good news is, no matter what the cause of the laminitis, if it is resolved and the horse is cared for properly going forward, she has a good chance of recovery. Just no more dex, ever!

Hope she finds some resolution soon, either way.

amastrike
Oct. 8, 2008, 03:18 PM
EqTrainer/ChocoMare, what do you think about doing the DD protocol in horses with no symptoms? Pointless, potentially harmful, can't hurt...?

ChocoMare
Oct. 8, 2008, 03:21 PM
If there are no symptoms (ain't broke), skip it/don't fix it. BUT if you may want to consider altering your regular deworming schedule to include a double dose from spring through early fall.... just in case ;)

purplnurpl
Oct. 8, 2008, 03:24 PM
Well, tell me this - one of my mares just popped up with "scratches" on one leg. It is extremely sore and got really bad really fast. Do you think I should do a 2x dose Equimax and see if it improves or goes away??? :confused: I haven't done anything else yet except put some Desitin on it. I noticed a little lump for a couple weeks but I thought she'd just got a little knick and it was a bit of scar tissue. But almost overnight it seemed to have gone rampant and late last night was the first I noticed that it looked terrible. I'm really really worried about it. She is very swollen today and sore.

And JB - you are in BIG trouble for posting that link girlfriend!!!! Damn woman, that burned my brain. Accccccccccccccccccccccccck

The worming protocol made my horses scratches go away...forever!!! Gatta keep worming him though.
: )

My mother's horse now has fur on his face. His face cleared up after the double Equimax.

My Dad's mule had developed this bump under the skin about an inch down from his eye.
It was there for several months and grew to a quater in size and it stuck up about 1 cm.
I finally convinced Pops to get his patootie out there and worm his mule!! double Equimax that all of the other horses received a month earlier.
I don't touch that mule so he was behind on the rotation.

About a week or so later the lump started shrinking and is down to a pea size.
We are going to double dose him again and I bet the sucker goes away totally. : )

sfstable
Oct. 8, 2008, 03:43 PM
In the mean time I spoke to my vetfriend in England, and as I feared, her reaction was more like, uh uh, where did you get that idea from. She was also worried about possible resistance with repeated ivermectin doses.
I will bring it up with my regular vet, but I doubt I'll get far and expect to be adviced to stop the weekly ivermectin doses. I have a hard time going against professional advice, even though I'm getting more and more convinced they are missing something.


Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the resistance to ivermectrin come from underdosing not overdosing ? If you have killed the "buggers" the whole issue of resistance is kinda mute. The ones that are resistant are the ones that are still alive. So the underdosing and not killing them in the first place would be the real problem.

gabz
Oct. 8, 2008, 04:10 PM
Well... there is a thought that if we always kill off the NON resistant ones then all that leaves are resistant parasites to keep making additional resistant parasites. Which is why some research is being done on SLOW rotation rather than fast rotation... fast being changing dewormer classes each treatment and slow being using one type for a year, then another type the following year, etc.

When QUEST first came out, some vets recommended their clients use only QUEST 1 year, then go back to Ivermectin rotated with the pyrental pamoates and fen/oxi - dazoles. Which is actually soundling like a good thing to do.

I also was reading about using a combination of oxifendazole with another non-mectin treatment. I gotta go find that again...
Here it is:
Preliminary results of a study that is currently ongoing suggests that treating with both oxibendazole and pyrantel at the same time can yield clinically significant increases in efficacy. Thus, on many farms using these drugs in combination may prove to be an effective means to decrease the reliance on ivermectin and moxidectin.
this is an excerpt from thehorse.com parasites series

short strided
Oct. 8, 2008, 05:27 PM
I called the University large animal hospital in my state to get there take on sweet itch. The Vet said that it is an allergy and has nothing to do with parasites. Ivermectin will not help and can be dangerous if given in high doses. The best way to get rid of it is antibiotics if they have an infection from itching and then Hydroxizine to ease the allergic reaction.

Hmmm... My vet said said it's basically impossible to OD on ivermectin. Which is a perfect illustration of the differing opinions and beliefs within the field.

All the more reason to employ a little self reliance and research things for yourself before blindly following anyone. (vet or internet group) ;)

FYI: I do have a good update to post, but don't have time. In short all itching has disappeared with single doses of Ivermectin every 5 days. I will report back in full and also email Chocomare all of my info.

Simkie
Oct. 8, 2008, 05:30 PM
Ivermectin has a safety index of 10:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vpuTp_vwsegC&pg=PA199&dq=safety+index+equine+ivermectin&sig=ACfU3U1nfYprhCr-pGgWIQ7tcyPw3Jx4CA

You'd have to give a hell of a lot, but it certainly IS possible to overdo it.

short strided
Oct. 8, 2008, 05:42 PM
Ivermectin has a safety index of 10:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vpuTp_vwsegC&pg=PA199&dq=safety+index+equine+ivermectin&sig=ACfU3U1nfYprhCr-pGgWIQ7tcyPw3Jx4CA

You'd have to give a hell of a lot, but it certainly IS possible to overdo it.

That's what I read as well... Which is an awful lot of tubes!

JB
Oct. 8, 2008, 05:48 PM
I also was reading about using a combination of oxifendazole with another non-mectin treatment. I gotta go find that again...
Here it is:

Preliminary results of a study that is currently ongoing suggests that treating with both oxibendazole and pyrantel at the same time can yield clinically significant increases in efficacy. Thus, on many farms using these drugs in combination may prove to be an effective means to decrease the reliance on ivermectin and moxidectin.

this is an excerpt from thehorse.com parasites series
Yes, I've heard that before - good to see the specifics here. So, a full dose of Anthelcide EQ (is there even another oxibendazole?) and pyrantel pamoate at the same time - interesting, and I like it!


That's what I read as well... Which is an awful lot of tubes!
depends on the size of the horse :winkgrin:

Dougal
Oct. 8, 2008, 06:03 PM
:yes:
Ivermectin has a safety index of 10:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vpuTp_vwsegC&pg=PA199&dq=safety+index+equine+ivermectin&sig=ACfU3U1nfYprhCr-pGgWIQ7tcyPw3Jx4CA

You'd have to give a hell of a lot, but it certainly IS possible to overdo it.

What about the Praziquantel? Similar safety margin? I am trawling Google as I type this...:confused:

Simkie
Oct. 8, 2008, 06:10 PM
:yes:

What about the Praziquantel? Similar safety margin? I am trawling Google as I type this...:confused:

I tried and tried to find a safety index for praziquantel and found very little for equines. I did find something posted on a Australian site which said it was 5.

It was awhile ago, so I no longer have the link. I might have posted it...

dpeterson9
Oct. 8, 2008, 06:27 PM
I gave my original dd of eq on 9/23, follow up dd of eq on 10/07.
Interesting results thus far.
Neither is showing any signs of ill effects or noticeable itching yet. However,
2 days after initial dd, appy mare had a few small round "marks", bare spots, dandruff looking, and a 2 x 2 inch bare spot on her upper right leg with lots of dandruff looking stuff. (This is the leg with intermittent lameness) Today, one full day after 2nd dd the appy mare had more of the same, the small marks had 2 hard scabby areas with a definite center hole in them. Lots of other marks that were the same, not there before, and the 2 x 2 inch spot is balder and has more dandruff looking stuff. Also a couple of marks that look like small scars, but weren't there before.
My TWH has the same small marks with bare spots and dandruff looking stuff.
Also has a couple with the hard center with definite center hole.
My TWH who I have been trying to keep weight on all year seems to be bulking up with no change in feed!
I will keep updating after the full two weeks has passed, but I am hopeful that I am seeing the NTW exiting the body and good things because of it.
It will be interesting to see if the lameness issue is helped by this.
Keep updating everyone!

Dougal
Oct. 8, 2008, 06:38 PM
I tried and tried to find a safety index for praziquantel and found very little for equines. I did find something posted on a Australian site which said it was 5.

It was awhile ago, so I no longer have the link. I might have posted it...

Thanks Simkie. I found this one :- http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/191516.htm

*pffffft* note - "wide safety margin" - helpful NOT!:(

but also found this...

Praziquantel is the only drug currently licensed in the United States for the treatment of tapeworms in horses.
Tapeworms have been discovered to be an important contributing factor to some types of colic. (A double dose
of pyrantel pamoate (Strongid) also effectively eliminates tapeworms in horses, however it does not have the
additional benefits that the ivermectin offers in combination with the praziquantel.)

from here:- www.virginiaequinepllc.com/Forms/Preventative.pdf

Is pyrantel pamoate the same thing as Praziquantel??:confused:

JB
Oct. 8, 2008, 06:39 PM
I tried and tried to find a safety index for praziquantel and found very little for equines. I did find something posted on a Australian site which said it was 5.

It was awhile ago, so I no longer have the link. I might have posted it...

I found this, which talks about Promectin, an abamectin/praziquantel combo, which states the product (not the individual components) has a 5x safety margin:
http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/product.php?productid=16195&cat=108&bestseller

So we know that prazi is safe to at least 5x.

JB
Oct. 8, 2008, 06:41 PM
Praziquantel is the only drug currently licensed in the United States for the treatment of tapeworms in horses.

Is pyrantel pamoate the same thing as Praziquantel??:confused:

Not the same thing at all.

Until very recently, prazi WAS the only chemical FDA-approved for the treatment of tapes. But the double dose of pyrantel pamoate has long been used for that purpose. A couple of years ago, pryantel pamoate was FDA-approved for the treatment of tapeworms. At that point, the Tapecare Plus product came out, which is a double dose of the pp in a single tube.

Dougal
Oct. 8, 2008, 06:52 PM
Thanks everyone.

Just to clarify... Simkie on vetnpetdirect they quote constituents of that wormer in grams viz:- The effectiveness of Promectin Plus is due to the combination of 3.7mg/g Abamectin and 46.2mg/g of Praziquantel; and that it is safe up to five times at that level of active ingredients...

The IMAX GOLD I have is in mg/mL - forgive my ignorance, but does that equate to the same level as the Promectin Plus above? They state that Promectin Plus is safe up to five times not actually the Praziquantel, so wouldn't it depend on comparitive levels in each product or have I misread?

(NB this is why I didn't DD last week as wasn't sure of comparitive ratios)

Okay I think I have worked this out...

The Promectin Plus they quote as safety margin being five times higher than recommended dosage rate is just over HALF the active ingredient levels of Praziquantel as the IMAX GOLD, IF I have done my calcs right.

Am I doing this right??? NUP - I get lost going from mg/g to mg/mL. HELP!!

Dougal
Oct. 10, 2008, 05:21 AM
I've given up trying to work it out - brain fog. :( But have decided to give them the DD tomorrow morning as I'll be home for the whole weekend to observe. Am thinking along the lines that if the contents of the PP are safe up to five times and it's a recommended dose then hopefully the IG will be the same... I have to do something as Patch is not a happy camper.

On another note, is it "normal" with NTW infestation for them to rub only mane, tail and face and not have lumps and bumps elsewhere (ie belly etc).??

ChocoMare
Oct. 10, 2008, 06:34 AM
On another note, is it "normal" with NTW infestation for them to rub only mane, tail and face and not have lumps and bumps elsewhere (ie belly etc).??

While they are most commonly seen on neck, chest, mane, tail and face, they almost certainly show on the belly too. Many folks have posted pictures of bellies will a looooong line of crusty scabs from umbilicus to sternum.

Dougal
Oct. 10, 2008, 07:13 AM
While they are most commonly seen on neck, chest, mane, tail and face, they almost certainly show on the belly too. Many folks have posted pictures of bellies will a looooong line of crusty scabs from umbilicus to sternum.

Thanks ChocoMare, I have seen some of the photos of bellies - but my fellow has nothing on his belly that I can see, just neck, face and rubs his tail till it resembles a toilet brush :( I guess I should have asked if it is likely to be a NTW problem if there is nothing on the belly?

gabz
Oct. 10, 2008, 09:19 AM
when you give the DD, it forces the NTWs to try to escape the horse. When they emerge, they can emerge anyplace - belly, sides, face, chest, neck, etc. etc.

When horses are itchy, they try everything to scratch the itch - including rubbing their tail even though the itch is under their belly.

The lumps and bumps and loss of hair are from the NTWs as the juveniles - microfilarae - are under the skin, traveling around. The lumps and bumps and scabby spots will get WORSE during the first week after DDing. You can discuss with your vet using an antihistamine to relieve the itchiness if your horse gets VERY bad. You can also apply ointments to the spots, if your horse will let you touch them. Ichthamol (a black salve) is one ointment that can help.

As the microfilarae mature, they become the big NTWs that can be 30 cm long and the mature NTWs are the ones that live in the neck - deep down in the tissues. The adults cannot be killed by dewormers. Therefore, horseowners need to kill as many of the juveniles as possible - to prevent them from reaching adulthood. That is why it's important to NOT underdose a horse with the ivermectin/avermectin/abamectins/moxidectin. Those are the only dewormers that can kill the onchocerca/NTWs.

SmallHerd
Oct. 10, 2008, 09:30 AM
So the adult worms will live in the horse until they die (the worms, that is), and wormers do not kill them? They will continue to reproduce and our goal is to kill the juveniles. What is the life expectancy of the adults?

Peg
Oct. 10, 2008, 10:46 AM
Small herd wrote:
So the adult worms will live in the horse until they die (the worms, that is), and wormers do not kill them? They will continue to reproduce and our goal is to kill the juveniles. What is the life expectancy of the adults? Do we DD every two weeks until the adults die? Peg

gabz
Oct. 10, 2008, 02:19 PM
Small herd wrote: Do we DD every two weeks until the adults die? Peg

No. I THINK someone posted on this thread that the adults live 12 years or more. Maybe it was 8 years or more. But it's a LONG time. (I'll try to find the reference.)

Do a DD, wait 2 weeks, do a DD. Evaluate at the end of a week. If horse is still itching like crazy or still has eruptions, use a single dose of Ivermectin or Quest. Evaluate after a week. If necessary use another dose of Ivermectin.

The critical part is the DDoses 2 weeks apart.

The dewormer should continue to kill juveniles for several weeks after you give it - but you need a big dose to really knock them down and then get any remaining ones that might be "stunned" so to speak.
It also depends on how infested the horse is.

While the adult females continue to shed eggs throughout their lifetime, a REGULAR deworming protocol (using either ivermectin or moxidectin; rotating and treating every 6 - 8 weeks or as directed by your vet), should keep most of the juveniles killed off. Enough should be killed with every deworming treatment so as not to create the major problems. And, keeping the juveniles killed off, means fewer that can become adults.

little D
Oct. 10, 2008, 09:36 PM
can someone tell me how to post pics?

LMH
Oct. 10, 2008, 09:42 PM
little D, you have to be a paid member to post pics-if you want to get pics out there for free, upload them to photobucket or some free pic website. :)

Chall
Oct. 11, 2008, 12:07 AM
Question: if adults can live for years and become large (I can't find the reference) but many inches long, would they not show up on radiographs, mri's etc?
Theoretically if the above is true, wouldn't someone be able to locate them and directly inject the worm with a needle containing some killing agent?

Lieslot
Oct. 11, 2008, 09:56 AM
Chall, very good question. I also don't understand that if these adult worms are in the horse, why no attempt by vets/clinics is done to expell or kill them.

My vet was here on Thursday and although she certainly didn't deny the existence of onchocerca, she said they hardly ever still see clinical cases of it, since the use of ivermectin.

In the 1980's she said they used to see summer sores due to onchocerca quite frequently, but not anymore since ivermectin has been on the market and horses have had a rotational worming program.
I showed her some articles and she recommended to check dates on the publication, if they date back to the 80's or are from this century.

She figured that my one DD & 3 singles followed by now, have got to be sufficient and I should give it 2 months and worm with moxidectin, wait 2 months and again equimax. That in her mind ought to be sufficient.
Do note when she was here, my horse only had a tiny lump left high up in his neck, so not a severe NTW-case.
She'll be back out in 4 weeks, so we'll recheck any lumps at that time and see what's ups.
She did not feel comfortable with the continuous weekly ivermectin dosing, as not enough research has been done on long term possible ill effect of continuous dosing or double dosing.

My guys had another single dose this morning and as I don't wish to freak out about liver problems, considering I have one on and off on devil's claw. I might quit here and go with moxidectin early Dec, equimax early Feb.

ChocoMare
Oct. 11, 2008, 04:00 PM
ATTENTION THOSE WHO WERE INTERESTED IN HOW THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX PROTOCOL CAN HELP FOALS WITH CLUBBED FEET/CONTRACTION.

Little D (my farrier/trimmer) sent me pics of her most recent case. She is without a computer right now since her laptop croaked. :dead:

This colt was born 6 months ago severely contracted/clubbed. The vet suggested surgery but the owner was reluctant. Little D suggested the DDEP, along with casting if needed. The owner felt she had nothing to lose and agreed to try.

http://community.webshots.com/album/567902913CLrtMR

Photos 1 and 2 are from the beginning. Nothing had been done yet. SEVERELY CLUBBED/CONTRACTED

Photo 3 is Two Days After First Double Dose Equimax. His hooves were casted to keep him from wearing off hoof wall.

Photo 4 is Day 17 (so only 3 Days after Second Dose DDE). For the first time that colt was able to run and buck next to his dam.

Unfortunately Little D was not able to keep up with the picture proof as this guy progressed. However, she told me this morning that this colt, at 6 months of age, is now able to walk normally. She is hoping to get updated pictures soon. Nothing else was done for this guy except the DDEP and regular visits by Little D to recast and check him. No surgery. No extensions. No splints.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not a single case that Little D has worked on and seen healing. It is simply the latest foal since she began her personal research YEARS ago.

BumbleBee
Oct. 11, 2008, 05:12 PM
Out of curiosity what happens to the adults when they die inside the horse? Does the body eventually manage to clear out the dead worm?

BTW have done second single ivermectin after doing the initial Equimax DDes. Still seeing erruptions, and old lumps really are sesolving, still no eye tearing, I will give another single ivermectin this week but I was wondering...

I am totally quest phobic. Being that my gelding has been pretty well cleaned out with the recent protical would this be a safer time to add Quest to my regime?

I have heard that the big issue is it's effectivness and as long as dosed correctly the only concern is large worm die-off.

Can someone hand hold and tell me I am not way off assuming this would be a relatively safe time to introduce this class of wormer?
I would imagine waiting 4-6 weeks would be a safe move correct?

Dougal
Oct. 11, 2008, 06:29 PM
Choco Mare this is fascinating... will be interested to see the updated photos. Is there any indication that this protocol helps with the same problem in older horses?

gabz
Oct. 11, 2008, 06:58 PM
BTW have done second single ivermectin after doing the initial Equimax DDes. Still seeing erruptions, and old lumps really are sesolving, still no eye tearing, I will give another single ivermectin this week but I was wondering...

I am totally quest phobic. Being that my gelding has been pretty well cleaned out with the recent protical would this be a safer time to add Quest to my regime?

I have heard that the big issue is it's effectivness and as long as dosed correctly the only concern is large worm die-off.

Can someone hand hold and tell me I am not way off assuming this would be a relatively safe time to introduce this class of wormer?
I would imagine waiting 4-6 weeks would be a safe move correct?

Actually, instead of giving another ivermectin this week, use a dose of regular Quest. You've done all the DDing, and a single dose of Ivermectin, so there will be very few parasites in the system. You might even wait 2 weeks from the last Ivermectin and then do the Quest.

One benefit of the Quest is that it kills the NTWs but doesn't cause the intense itching that the Ivermectin does. (according to research studies already stated on this thread). And, the Quest is effective slightly longer than the ivermectin. I did DD, 2 weeks, DD, 2 weeks, Single Iver, 4 weeks, Quest.

gabz
Oct. 11, 2008, 07:05 PM
Chocomare - that is just SO dramatic.
I surely hope that Little D can continue her studies and document them.

If I were her, I would contact ?? Equimax manufacturer and request some support... computer w/ web connection and camera for documenting.

Just a long shot, I know, but the worst that can happen is they say No.

BumbleBee
Oct. 11, 2008, 08:04 PM
Gabz- I'l do that.

As to Equimax why does it taste so bad? My gelding who is super to deworm really was resistant to taking the Equimax. I just tasted a tiny bit on my tounge and it was horrific tasting. lol I ended up giving him an apple after each dose to buy him off.:lol:

The ivermectin tastes rather okay by comparisson. I wont be taste testing quest.:no:

little D
Oct. 11, 2008, 08:16 PM
Please be careful of Quest as it is not safe for foals due to the fact that the shunt suppying blood straight to the brain has not closed till approx. 4 months of age and in some foals 6 months and some it never closes. quest going thru this blood supply will likely cause death. And I certainly wouldnt dd it. Nor in 15 years of studying did I find it nessesary to use it. nor was it found in clinical trials to be as effective as equimax. If you google horse death due to Quest wormer you can see for yourself the dangers. why take a chance. It generally costs more too.

little D
Oct. 11, 2008, 08:33 PM
The ivermectin as most of you realize does not cause the itching. It is the emerging parasites so if you get a reaction with one dewormer and not the other it is likely that it is because on is working and the other is not.

JB
Oct. 11, 2008, 08:47 PM
This colt was born 6 months ago severely contracted/clubbed. The vet suggested surgery but the owner was reluctant. Little D suggested the DDEP, along with casting if needed. The owner felt she had nothing to lose and agreed to try.

http://community.webshots.com/album/567902913CLrtMR

Photos 1 and 2 are from the beginning. Nothing had been done yet. SEVERELY CLUBBED/CONTRACTED

Photo 3 is Two Days After First Double Dose Equimax. His hooves were casted to keep him from wearing off hoof wall.

Photo 4 is Day 17 (so only 3 Days after Second Dose DDE). For the first time that colt was able to run and buck next to his dam.


THAT is amazing! Little D, you MUST document as many of these as you can! I can't wait to talk to my vet about this whole thing.

little D
Oct. 11, 2008, 08:57 PM
Dont expect your vets to agree. if is is not information distributed at the equine convention then they generally wont believe it. And most are not going to do the research themselves. It takes to much time and money. I know because I personally spent thousands on keeping horses to do clinical trials on. It became Quite expensive, at one point I had 52 horses.

little D
Oct. 11, 2008, 09:22 PM
I am using someones computer tonight and cant stay any longer wanted to read the posts coming in. Ill try to come back tomorrow.

gabz
Oct. 12, 2008, 10:07 AM
Little D. -
I agree with NOT using Quest for foals. Thank you for that reminder and explanation of how it affects young horses.

Bumblebee and I were talking about NTWs that are causing itching and dermatitis. We were speaking of AFTER 2 DOUBLE DOSES of Equimax when single doses of Ivermectin are being used weekly as a follow-up.

My suggestion is to use DD, 2 weeks; DD, 2 weeks; Ivermectin, 1 week; then Quest. Quest will get any encysted strongyles and knock out any remaining NTWs. Plus - the QUEST has a longer period of time of keeping non-onchocerca parasites from developing and/or shedding eggs (ERP).

THere are links in this thread to valid studies that say IVERMECTIN or MOXIDECTIN to kill NTWs and Moxidectin does NOT have the resulting itchiness. Used as single dose treatments. Not to replace DD Equimax.

gabz
Oct. 12, 2008, 10:14 AM
Gabz- I'l do that.

As to Equimax why does it taste so bad? My gelding who is super to deworm really was resistant to taking the Equimax. I just tasted a tiny bit on my tounge and it was horrific tasting. lol I ended up giving him an apple after each dose to buy him off.:lol:

The ivermectin tastes rather okay by comparisson. I wont be taste testing quest.:no:

The only dewormer that my horses think tastes good is the Bimectin. VERY apple-flavored and usually inexpensive (about the same as Horse Health or generics)

For me, with the DD or large volume dewormer pastes, it's easier to simply mix the paste in a few cups of pelleted feed and then squirt some molasses over it. They suck it down like crazy. They have to eat it all gone before being released to eat hay.

I know a lady that cuts the core out of apples, not quite all the way through, and fills it with the dewormer paste. It works for her. My horses don't take the entire apple even when it's NOT doctored, so I would probably end up with paste AND apple slobber all over me!!

Georgiatrails
Oct. 13, 2008, 05:00 PM
Hello all -

Im a newbie here and thanks to this thread that got me over here. A friend of mine forwarded the thread to me. After reading all the post, I DD my Kiger mustang mare with Equimax, 14 days later did another DD, which was this past thursday. She didnt have alot of problems, I did notice that her eye watered alot, just the left, she does rub her tail/butt alot but no hair loss. About 1 1/2 month ago a not popped up on the left side of her spine, right down from her withers, I thought it was a bug bite, but it stayed there for a while later. I did notice it has gone completely away now and her eye is no longer watering. Not sure if this was due to the thread worms or not, but I figured it couldnt hurt her to dose her. She is still rubbing her tail I noticed Saturday when I was there, so not sure if that's just habit or something else. Its only when she's in the stall after she gets thru eating.

But I just wanted to thank everyone here for spreading the word....fabulous!!!

ChocoMare
Oct. 13, 2008, 05:59 PM
Well the data is now in the hands of LMH. I scrubbed it as much as I could, copying/pasting from posts here in the thread, as well as the clinical reports people privately e-mailed to me. She was shocked at the shear volume!

Please be patient with her. It's going to take a while for her/us to correlate it all into a cohesive report suitable for public distribution on her website.

One thing I can tell you though, that out of the 60 people who reported in (some with more than one horse) NOT ONE reported a negative outcome. All were positive and saw improvement.

Even though the data has been transferred to LMH, please don't let that keep you from reporting in.

ChocoMare
Oct. 14, 2008, 07:19 AM
ANOTHER CONTRACTED/CLUB FOOTED FOAL CASE FROM LITTLE D

http://community.webshots.com/myphotos?action=refreshPhotos&albumID=567981441&security=wxJNjr

They're not the greatest quality but they'll do. First two are before DDEP and last one is after, along with gentle trimming.

LMH
Oct. 14, 2008, 08:04 AM
Yes, I have the info...but please be patient. I am fighting some issues here with time...between Polo and another personal matter I barely have time to stop and breathe.

Ambrey
Oct. 14, 2008, 10:31 AM
ANOTHER CONTRACTED/CLUB FOOTED FOAL CASE FROM LITTLE D

http://community.webshots.com/myphotos?action=refreshPhotos&albumID=567981441&security=wxJNjr

They're not the greatest quality but they'll do. First two are before DDEP and last one is after, along with gentle trimming.

It seems really difficult to separate the effects of the DDEP and the trimming, though.

Lori T
Oct. 14, 2008, 10:51 AM
ATTENTION THOSE WHO WERE INTERESTED IN HOW THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX PROTOCOL CAN HELP FOALS WITH CLUBBED FEET/CONTRACTION.

Little D (my farrier/trimmer) sent me pics of her most recent case. She is without a computer right now since her laptop croaked. :dead:

This colt was born 6 months ago severely contracted/clubbed. The vet suggested surgery but the owner was reluctant. Little D suggested the DDEP, along with casting if needed. The owner felt she had nothing to lose and agreed to try.

http://community.webshots.com/album/567902913CLrtMR

Photos 1 and 2 are from the beginning. Nothing had been done yet. SEVERELY CLUBBED/CONTRACTED

Photo 3 is Two Days After First Double Dose Equimax. His hooves were casted to keep him from wearing off hoof wall.

Photo 4 is Day 17 (so only 3 Days after Second Dose DDE). For the first time that colt was able to run and buck next to his dam.

Unfortunately Little D was not able to keep up with the picture proof as this guy progressed. However, she told me this morning that this colt, at 6 months of age, is now able to walk normally. She is hoping to get updated pictures soon. Nothing else was done for this guy except the DDEP and regular visits by Little D to recast and check him. No surgery. No extensions. No splints.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not a single case that Little D has worked on and seen healing. It is simply the latest foal since she began her personal research YEARS ago.

Amazing!
My good news is that Tucker's habronema is shrinking! My vet called me to ask why haven't I called him out and I told him that so far there was no need to. Unfortunately though he has a sore on his left hind that won't heal, don't know if it is also a habronema, it doesn't have quite the same appearance. I am keeping Tucker on a worming schedule of every week. Last was a single dose of Equimax. He still basically looks like crap, at least his face does and now he is rubbing his mane and tail again, so will DD this weekend and have got to get to the tack store and get a tube of Ulcerguard, I think that will clear his face up again as it did last time.

ChocoMare
Oct. 14, 2008, 11:51 AM
It seems really difficult to separate the effects of the DDEP and the trimming, though.

I see what you're saying but the trimming (when they can be trimmed, unlike Colt No. 1) is done on the off weeks and is done is tiny increments to bring the heels down as the decontraction takes place.

crazy gray horse
Oct. 14, 2008, 03:23 PM
I think my pony may have NTW - I've attached a picture to see - perhaps those of you that know what this looks like could tell me if this seems to be the same.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/ringersuz/100_3157.jpg

I first noticed this over the summer - pony's mane was long and he rubbed out a good 3 inch section of mane - right down to the skin. So I roached his mane. The section he rubbed was very flakey, but I thought it was just some skin crud or perhaps sweet itch. But it's also on the side of his neck (where he rubbed the mane). No matter what I did, it didn't clear up.

A month or so ago I noticed a round spot of crud on the other side of his neck. And just a yesterday I noticed his pasture mate has a small round spot like the pony has.

Hopefully the picture is clear enough. I would appreciate any input.

ChocoMare
Oct. 14, 2008, 03:27 PM
CGH: The possibility is quite good that NTWs have invaded your pony. Following the protocol won't hurt and just might help/cure. Go for it and please be sure to report back.

Just a reminder: Double Dose Equimax (by weight) today. Wait 14 days and Double Dose Equimax again.

crazy gray horse
Oct. 14, 2008, 03:33 PM
I'll start the protocol for NTW, both on the pony and the other horse since the spot on the horse looks identical to what's on the pony.

Do I understand correctly that this is transmitted through insects - ie: biting insect becomes infected then bites another horse and the horse can become infected? (perhaps that's too simplistic?)

I'm thinking that perhaps all the boys should be treated with the DD for precautions sake.

ChocoMare
Oct. 14, 2008, 03:35 PM
Yes, they microfilia are transmitted into the horse's body by midges/gnats/no-see-ums.

I realize this thread is long, but do take the time to read through the first several pages where plenty of past studies, pictures and other clinical stuff was linked to.

crazy gray horse
Oct. 14, 2008, 03:42 PM
Thanks Chocomare

I did read through the first couple of pages, which is how I came to think the pony had the ntw. I didn't open any of the attached studies though. However I did visit the thread w/ pictures on horsecity.

I'll go back and read more thoroughly.

I'll start the DD of equimax and I'll report back on the effectiveness.

Glad I visited this thread.....

little D
Oct. 14, 2008, 08:30 PM
Just wanted to explain as there seems to be some confusion about the trimming and double dosing. You have to trim the heel down or you still have the heel up just as you would trim any horse. The horses that I have worked on had already been trimmed by other farriers, some had surgery, some had extentions. with no improvement. I was called in because i specialize in these problems. I added the dewormer to the treatment. and got results. the cases that choco mare posted trimming was what was tried on these and was not successful.

WW_Queen
Oct. 17, 2008, 02:15 PM
I used the power-pack in late August, and early October my horse develops uveitis.

Could a worm die-off take 6+ weeks? Horse has never had eye issues before.

dpeterson9
Oct. 21, 2008, 11:58 AM
Both horses had multiple sites, bumps etc., after my 2nd dd of eq, so today, two weeks from the 2nd dd, I did a single dose if ivermectin. Hope there will be no more bumps, scars, dandruff eruptions and we will be done! No adverse effects from either one of them. New hair growth and weight gain are positive effects for both. Neither showed any real itchiness or major hair loss, so I did this more as an experiment to see if it would help with intermittent lameness is the right front leg of my appy, and to see if worms were affecting weight gain in my TWH.
I think both have definitely benefited, although the jury is still out on the lameness issue.

blackstallion
Oct. 21, 2008, 08:56 PM
Okay, jumped on the bandwagon here. One older mare with past parasite overload challenges (worms, lice, patchy hair loss, etc.), one itchy tail-less appy, 3 others. I couldn't swing the Equimax, so we started today with DD of Bimectrin on all 5. The older mare had a power pak last worming. Everyone else had single dose of panacur. Their winter coats are coming in nicely for the most part, but the appy is still quite itchy, so it'll be interesting to see if DD makes a difference.

Is there a results reference page yet, or still compiling?
Thanks

Loves to ride
Oct. 21, 2008, 09:41 PM
Hi,

I DD'd ivermectin, then 2 weeks later DD'd Equimax, then 2 weeks later did single dose ivermectin.

Both horses are becoming porkers with NO dietary changes, NO exercise changes, NO changes that I can determine. It's colder so they have been more active in the paddocks.

Anyone else seen this with the DD regiment?

Boy are they going to be disappointed when I take away the remainig handful of feed they get... :D

Lori T
Oct. 21, 2008, 10:24 PM
I skipped worming this week and instead did UlcerGuard. Tonight was the 4th and last dose of the syringe...and Tucker's face is 90% cleared up! How stupid of me not to do it sooner, it worked when I did it last December. The scabs and crud are gone and hair already regrowing. The habronema also is 90% better, which I attribute to the dding. Will worm again next weekend.
Will have to post pictures this week!

ChocoMare
Oct. 22, 2008, 06:51 AM
Oh Lori!!! So glad to hear that Tucker is greatly improved. Amazing!!!!! Hmmmm, wonder what your vet is gonna say? ;)

Re: Results Page. Yes, I'm still compiling. LMH, bless her heart, is up to her eyeballs :(....so I'm going to do my best to tackle it alone. Like you guys, I work full time Mon-Fri, have a hubby, teach lessons, ride my own horses and all that other "stuff" that takes up my life. Hopefully I can set aside a few hours each Saturday to sit at the computer and work on it. There is a TON of data, so I ask your patience with me. K? :D

kearleydk
Oct. 22, 2008, 07:59 AM
As you compile I wonder if the age of the horses will relate ot anything? I sort of fell like the older the horse the more likely to have major reaactions, at least in my herd. Seems like the infestation may build slowly over years as babies have no itchy, My youngest mane rubber is 3 and the worst is 11.

Things really go crazy when you DD. A mildly itchy horse may erupt all over but if you stay the course they get better.

Dick

nomade61
Oct. 22, 2008, 08:45 PM
Well here we go. I received my order of wormers finally. So I am going to do the protocol. My 11 year old Arabian is very thin, even though I have more than doubled his supplemental feed. He has a sort of knob the size of brazil nut on his spine on the lower back. Don't know when that appeared but noticed it this summer. With all the grooming and such, I would have noticed if it had appeared much sooner than that.

He is prone to scratches and has lately even though there was minimal rain. He has a few bug bites that didn't really heal, leaving little scabs. Nothing much really. His face seems itchy even though he doesn't go so far as rub the fur off. He did rub his tail pretty well but it didn't bald, just got really short at the top.

Tonight I did a single dose of Ivermectin to start things cause I was afraid of massive die-off since he hasn't been wormed much in the last few years. I used herbal stuff.

I will give the first double dose of Equimax in one week, and the second dd two weeks later. I am a bit scared. I will keep my fingers crossed. Thanks every one for posting. I feel that between the reports here and the what I have read elsewhere that I doing the right thing.

Dee

EqTrainer
Oct. 22, 2008, 10:13 PM
Hi,

I DD'd ivermectin, then 2 weeks later DD'd Equimax, then 2 weeks later did single dose ivermectin.

Both horses are becoming porkers with NO dietary changes, NO exercise changes, NO changes that I can determine. It's colder so they have been more active in the paddocks.

Anyone else seen this with the DD regiment?

Boy are they going to be disappointed when I take away the remainig handful of feed they get... :D

:yes: Now you know why we tell the people with skinny horses to deworm the snot out of them!

gabz
Oct. 23, 2008, 12:44 PM
Well here we go. I received my order of wormers finally. So I am going to do the protocol. My 11 year old Arabian is very thin, even though I have more than doubled his supplemental feed. He has a sort of knob the size of brazil nut on his spine on the lower back. Don't know when that appeared but noticed it this summer. With all the grooming and such, I would have noticed if it had appeared much sooner than that.

He is prone to scratches and has lately even though there was minimal rain. He has a few bug bites that didn't really heal, leaving little scabs. Nothing much really. His face seems itchy even though he doesn't go so far as rub the fur off. He did rub his tail pretty well but it didn't bald, just got really short at the top.

Tonight I did a single dose of Ivermectin to start things cause I was afraid of massive die-off since he hasn't been wormed much in the last few years. I used herbal stuff.

I will give the first double dose of Equimax in one week, and the second dd two weeks later. I am a bit scared. I will keep my fingers crossed. Thanks every one for posting. I feel that between the reports here and the what I have read elsewhere that I doing the right thing.

Dee
Sounds like a very good plan. I'll be thinking of you and your Arab in the coming weeks. keep us posted on results. When you send your results to ChocoMare, be sure to tell her what previous deworming protocol you were using (the herbal stuff) ... thanks!

xEchox
Oct. 23, 2008, 12:48 PM
Jumping on the bandwagon..Plan to double dose my guy this afternoon. He's a 17 year old bashkir curly who's been dealing with a horrible skin issue.. Not fungus, and he itches himself like crazy. Face/tail/chest/ stomach etc. So hoping this will help..

nomade61
Oct. 24, 2008, 07:28 AM
Hi Gabz,

thank you for supporting us. Just to give you more info on the worming. I got Wali in January 2007. He had been a pasture ornment for approximately 3 years. He was way out it rural Quebec where there are not vets. Had not been wormed at all.

When I got him, the routine prepurchase vet exam was done and the vet gave me a wormer just in case...I fed it to him (my horse, not the vet hehehe).

Then I bought some DE, thinking I would save my horse from the chemical drug scene. After a very hard summer, he put on lots of weight last winter (with our freezing up here, there wouldn't be a worm species that could survive you would think). But no. He lost ALL the weight with shedding this spring and never did put it back on. So the vet sold me some dewormer that I can't name for lack of info. I should have clued in cause he was rubbing his tail, and after worming, the hair started to grow back.

Adamantly searching brought me to a website with a herbal wormer. The manufacturer suggests one chemical worming per year, so I thought we would be fine seeing I had administered one in June.

I wouldn't go so far as to say herbal wormers don't work, but I can say that they don't stand a chance with the types of worms out there. They might be fine for some worms, might not. But how would one tell when we know that some of the worms don't even show in fecals?

So I might keep the herbal stuff for supplementary worming this winter, but once I run out (I have enough for two doses) I won't be buying more.

Dee

Nik
Oct. 24, 2008, 08:42 AM
Agh finally, read the lot....

Coincidentally I had been emailed Dougie about my pony mare. Biting her chest, loosing small flecks of skin around her face, trying to remove her tail, biting belly, up near her teats etc. No knowledge of her past history, did have a pony with really bad itch about 30 years ago and his treatment (and it worked...) was kerosene mixed with lard slathered over the bad spots, full clip and he was rugged in heavy cornsacking year round. But would prefer not going that route.

I had gone the creams and shampoos route, even cracking it and using straight malesab . With very temporary relief.

Currently she is on a herbal program/tincture and we do have issues with midges. And gets wiped with a tea tree oil - seems to bring immediate relief but again only temporary.

She had recently been wormed with Quest with me guesstimating the weight. So must look at the properly and will start the DD next week after working out weights/number of tubes.

Thanks Dougie, I had been thinking along this path but had talked myself out of it.

blackstallion
Oct. 24, 2008, 08:52 PM
I didn't really expect my horses to have any reaction to the DD, but my itchy appy has weird patches of scaley skin flaking from his neck. I'll check out everyone more closely tomorrow. He's black so the flakey skin is easy to see.

xEchox
Oct. 25, 2008, 09:49 AM
*sighs* Still no change to my guy..though it's only been two days..He's still itching just as crazy and still making him bleed relentless.... =/ Hopefully this works...

TheOtherHorse
Oct. 25, 2008, 10:51 AM
I have a horse who has developed what feels like nasty rain rot on one side of her withers. The weird thing is it started in the middle of a drought, and it is only in a tiny area maybe 3" large, and there is none around it. So of course I wonder if it really is rain rot. It is rather painful to touch. I've been treating it as rain rot without much success. Not sure where to go from here... Reading this thread makes me wonder if I should try DDing her?

The past 1.5 years or so I have been doing fecals instead of deworming all of the time, though I still dewormed twice a year even if the fecals were clean, just in case. Now I'm thinking maybe that was a bad idea. :(

Also- is it safe to DD an IR horse with a history of laminitis? That one doesn't have symptoms but I'm wondering if I should do her also?

gabz
Oct. 25, 2008, 10:19 PM
*sighs* Still no change to my guy..though it's only been two days..He's still itching just as crazy and still making him bleed relentless.... =/ Hopefully this works...

Don't let your horse be that painful... give him some antihistamines. You can use People Ones... call your vet for the dose. Poor guy... Hope he gets better soon.

xEchox
Oct. 26, 2008, 08:58 AM
I dont let him be..Or try not to.. He's already destroyed his blanket and haven't got the money for another one...HATES being inside 24/7 with his fans on or even over night so I have a fan set up on the left side of the barn by his pasture that he can stand by... He's already on anti-histamines but they aren't working for him....... He's a curly so his skin is already a bit more sensitive and *sighs* he does seem to be a little better...Though I don't know if it's the cold front? or maybe the doubledose working...

HandsomeBayFarm
Oct. 27, 2008, 10:00 AM
Just did another DD EM on the old guy.

Over the last week - he had that worried expression - still eating though. (Before he would go off his food)

Let him out of the pasture and he headed straight for the tree to scratch is butt then over to the bush to do his belly.

So I hit him again. Couldnt risk the weight loss ( I just got him off the SPCA watch list - JK). Cant tell you how much better this horse is from what he was in August.

Will follow this with a single does and keep icthamol on his belly.

Attitude change is a big indicator for this one I am finding out.

crazy gray horse
Oct. 27, 2008, 12:50 PM
I did DDE on my pony 12 days ago and the thick, flakey gunk that he had on his neck has improved dramatically. Both he and his pasture friend (he was DD as well) had a small round crud spot on their neck and the crud has gone from both leaving just a hairless spot.

A few days after the first DD, I saw the pony rolling - actually he was rubbing his neck like crazy. That was the only time I saw him itching.

I give the 2nd DD on Wed.

FlashGordon
Oct. 29, 2008, 10:02 PM
As we have run BW on my guy and suspect he has a worm load issue....

I did a DD of Strongid 10 days ago and have seen his skin crusties calm down. Will probably DD with Ivermectin if I get the vet's go ahead tomorrow.

Read this thread through a few weeks ago but will have to do it again.

Anyone know what threadworms in the eye look like??

nomade61
Nov. 1, 2008, 10:40 AM
Just gave the first double dose of Equimax to my gelding. He is 825lbs. I have some left over of course. Can I keep it and use it in 14 days on my second double dosage? Thanks in advance
Dee

HandsomeBayFarm
Nov. 3, 2008, 10:19 AM
So - I cant get the belly itch to go away. I am not so sure it can still be related to NTWs. Or can I? Ugh!

His coat is so shiny - he is old and retired and somewhat neglected in the grooming dept. He is hungry - thank goodness. And he is not spooky at all (he was with NTWs in him).

So what to do for his terribly itchy belly. He has been DD 5x with single doses in between (since the end of August).

I am just not sure if it is NTWs or something not related.

I got wormer ready - should I?

Suggestions?

Camelot
Nov. 3, 2008, 10:37 AM
I think my next step would be to have the Vet out to see if he has a secondary bacterial or fungal infection going on that is preventing healing.

For temporary itch relief I've used the Gold Bond medicated powder in the green bottle. It's labeled as Extra Strength and it has twice the active ingredients than the gold colored bottle. The blue bottle I think is labeled as Super Strength but it does not contain the zinc oxide ingredient.

My mare really liked when I put this on her. She would see me coming with the bottle and would hurry right to the gate. I used it very liberally. I would get a good handful of powder and them pat / rub it all over her belly from her front arm pits to her udder and groin area. You end up with quite a dusting of white powder on the ground too but oh well. It was obviously soothing and helped.

It's not very long lasting and I would re-apply at least 3 times a day. Now with cooler weather and lower humidity you may find the effect lasts longer than I did in July / Aug. / Sept.

ToiRider
Nov. 3, 2008, 10:53 AM
For temporary itch relief I've used the Gold Bond medicated powder in the green bottle.

I adopted an old golden retriever who had terrible hot spots under her elbows. I put the Gold Bond powder on her, and it not only stopped her itchiness, but it dried her hot spots out and they healed up nicely. Gold Bond powder is great stuff.

ChocoMare
Nov. 3, 2008, 10:57 AM
I think my next step would be to have the Vet out to see if he has a secondary bacterial or fungal infection going on that is preventing healing.

For temporary itch relief I've used the Gold Bond medicated powder in the green bottle. It's labeled as Extra Strength and it has twice the active ingredients than the gold colored bottle. The blue bottle I think is labeled as Super Strength but it does not contain the zinc oxide ingredient.

My mare really liked when I put this on her. She would see me coming with the bottle and would hurry right to the gate. I used it very liberally. I would get a good handful of powder and them pat / rub it all over her belly from her front arm pits to her udder and groin area. You end up with quite a dusting of white powder on the ground too but oh well. It was obviously soothing and helped.

It's not very long lasting and I would re-apply at least 3 times a day. Now with cooler weather and lower humidity you may find the effect lasts longer than I did in July / Aug. / Sept.

I'm gonna ditto this.

Many times when we as humans have scabs, as they start to heal, they itch. I'd offer calming/soothing topic remedies to help the scabs heal: Bag Balm is a good quicky and you can POOF Gold Bond onto it too.

nomade61
Nov. 6, 2008, 07:19 PM
Ok so my horse didn't have any symptoms really, except unexplainable mud fever, and a kind of spinal knob towards his lower spine. Oh he did have some "bug bites" that wouldn't heal, although they didn't fester or do anything weird.

I gave one 1.2 dose of Ivermectin on the 22 of October. Waited till November 1st cause of other obligations, then gave the first DD Equimax.

So far, no more bug bites. Mud fever is drying up without zinc or anything else, spinal knob is the same.

He seems itchy in his face and cheek area, when I bring him in the barn, he wants to rub all over.

I noticed that he was more spooky than normally. He was pretty lethargic actually prior to treatment. Seems happier and more responsive.

More to come, second DD will be on the 13th because of full moon factor. So I will be cheating by a day.

Still would like any advice if any of you have used remaining Equimax left over from DD.

ChocoMare
Nov. 10, 2008, 09:41 AM
ATTENTION THOSE WHO WERE INTERESTED IN HOW THE DOUBLE DOSE EQUIMAX PROTOCOL CAN HELP FOALS WITH CLUBBED FEET/CONTRACTION.

Little D (my farrier/trimmer) sent me pics of her most recent case. She is without a computer right now since her laptop croaked. :dead:

This colt was born 6 months ago severely contracted/clubbed. The vet suggested surgery but the owner was reluctant. Little D suggested the DDEP, along with casting if needed. The owner felt she had nothing to lose and agreed to try.

http://community.webshots.com/album/567902913CLrtMR

Photos 1 and 2 are from the beginning. Nothing had been done yet. SEVERELY CLUBBED/CONTRACTED

Photo 3 is Two Days After First Double Dose Equimax. His hooves were casted to keep him from wearing off hoof wall.

Photo 4 is Day 17 (so only 3 Days after Second Dose DDE). For the first time that colt was able to run and buck next to his dam.

Unfortunately Little D was not able to keep up with the picture proof as this guy progressed. However, she told me this morning that this colt, at 6 months of age, is now able to walk normally. She is hoping to get updated pictures soon. Nothing else was done for this guy except the DDEP and regular visits by Little D to recast and check him. No surgery. No extensions. No splints.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not a single case that Little D has worked on and seen healing. It is simply the latest foal since she began her personal research YEARS ago.

Another update picture on Comet, the contracted colt.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2174045080015305252JWwidm
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2900773220015305252ZTTskg

Owner has kept up on the Double Dosing, with DJ coming in to re-cast on the off weeks. We expect to see this colt with level hooves in another 8 weeks. :)

ChocoMare
Nov. 10, 2008, 09:42 AM
Still would like any advice if any of you have used remaining Equimax left over from DD.

Unless you an use it with another horse the same day, I would just discard. I wouldn't want to risk having it contaminated by anything while it was sitting in the fridge. Better safe than sorry. ;)

pattnic
Nov. 10, 2008, 10:54 AM
My horses have been on a regular worming schedule, following Chocomare's original roatation. For the double dose protocol, both horses were double-dosed with ivermectin, as it is less costly, and I am not fully convinced of the role of praziquantel in this protocol. The gelding was also severely injured a few weeks prior to the initial double dose, and I did not want to tax his system more than necessary. There was actually a full month between the two double doses, as life interfered with my ability to get to the barn for a while. Both horses gained at least some weight after the initial double dose :rolleyes:; whether this was due to the DD or the new hay, I cannot be for certain. Damn easy keepers – I want some of the worms back!

12-year-old Morgan mare

Recurrent “Sweet Itch” this summer (diagnosed by vet as allergy to Culicodes), leading to itchy skin (rubbed off a lot of hair on neck/chest and some on face), flaky skin, and linear urticaria. Tail rubbing. A very few “knots” of the variety (a bit smaller than an eraser) that make one think “worms.”

Date of first DD: October 2, 2008
No major clearing noticed due to DD, as most recent “sweet itch” was already clearing up.
Tail itching stopped.
Mare gained weight. =(

Date of second DD: November 1, 2008
One week later, noticed flaky skin on neck in location of previous sweet itch.
“Worm knots” no longer present.


4-year-old Morgan gelding

No symptoms other than a few “wormy knots” and some tail rubbing as worming was due.

Date of first DD: October 2, 2008
“Wormy knots” disappeared and tail rubbing stopped.
Some weight gain.

Date of second DD: November 1, 2008
One week later, no further improvement or symptoms to report

No further DD or weekly ivermectin followed the original DD protocol.

Come spring, I believe I will DD ivermectin again, to see if my mare’s “sweet itch” is prevented, or if any difference is noted in severity. I think I may also try the pyrantel/oxibendazole as part of my rotation as well, slightly altering what I currently use. Maybe.

While I am not yet fully convinced that "it worked" beyond their normal rotation, it certainly didn't hurt anything. I feel the true test will be this spring with my mare.

big boy
Nov. 11, 2008, 08:38 PM
So I have a question about the worming schedule for Chocomare. I need to dd my guys I just wormed with Ivermectin on Sunday, can I wait 6 wks dd and then dd again in two weeks? I ask because that would keep them on their normal scedule with the exception of the dd.

ChocoMare
Nov. 12, 2008, 06:30 AM
Yup... I wouldn't wait six weeks tho. Sit with the calendar and see about moving the double dose rotation sooner.

dpeterson9
Nov. 15, 2008, 07:29 PM
Hi Chocomare and Leah,
wondering if either of you have posted the results you've correlated anywhere?
Interested in seeing the info all in one place!
Thanks,
Deb

Nik
Nov. 24, 2008, 06:41 AM
Have had second dose on pony. Minor hiccup though as she took the whole tube... I weighed in spillage and there was, but she licked it up! Pony. I decided not to panic because I used to use this paste on a similar sized pony and whole tube her - she died at 34. So guessing she did ok with it.

Missing hair spots on face - gone. Tail rubbing - gone. Overall itchiness - still there but not as manic about it. Mind you her coat is all out now (summer here), very shiny and short coat.

Ivermectin is due in a week - so has had 2 x DD's (and a bit) of Equimax so far.

She says HAI got fud?
http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/42712/2086304490100157968S425x425Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2086304490100157968AVsRNo)

She is resting a hoof and is not fat.. really... just round...

LMH
Nov. 24, 2008, 06:57 AM
Pretty pony Nik:)

Nik
Nov. 25, 2008, 06:37 AM
Thank you - she knows she is too. She is an Australian Riding pony, sire is welsh and dam has about 5% arab blood. She is a very bright girl, only 4 and right now enjouying the life of larry as I dont have time to ride.

kearleydk
Nov. 29, 2008, 08:28 AM
Hate to say it but after dd'ing the whole herd and doing some of the real bad ones 3 times instead of just twice I still have the bad ones tearing out their manes and tails.

Not near as bad as they were but problem is certainly not gone away.

I'm still going. Wormer is cheaper than all the other ointments and supplements but gees how long will this go on?

SSFLandon
Nov. 29, 2008, 11:39 AM
Hate to say it but after dd'ing the whole herd and doing some of the real bad ones 3 times instead of just twice I still have the bad ones tearing out their manes and tails.

Not near as bad as they were but problem is certainly not gone away.

I'm still going. Wormer is cheaper than all the other ointments and supplements but gees how long will this go on?

You have asked a question I also wonder about. Some say that the DD is just a few times but, when do you stop and consider something else the problem? Constantly deworming does have side effects....

for those that have found good results that's great...I'm just curious from the experts on this thread who you suggest if your DD several times fails??

grayarabpony
Nov. 29, 2008, 04:13 PM
Hate to say it but after dd'ing the whole herd and doing some of the real bad ones 3 times instead of just twice I still have the bad ones tearing out their manes and tails.

Not near as bad as they were but problem is certainly not gone away.

I'm still going. Wormer is cheaper than all the other ointments and supplements but gees how long will this go on?

Consider trying Scalpicin. It's cheap, easy to put on, and effective.

I think sometimes when horses start scratching, for whatever reason, they can set themselves up for mild dermititis. Scalpicin can control the itchiness and allow the skin to heal. Worked for my mare when I brought her home and she scratched half of her tail off within 6 months. Hydrocortizone didn't work but Scalpicin did -- since it's liquid it easily penetrates to the skin.

HandsomeBayFarm
Nov. 29, 2008, 06:37 PM
Hate to say it but after dd'ing the whole herd and doing some of the real bad ones 3 times instead of just twice I still have the bad ones tearing out their manes and tails.

Not near as bad as they were but problem is certainly not gone away.

I'm still going. Wormer is cheaper than all the other ointments and supplements but gees how long will this go on?

I had to do three months of some DD and weekly Ivermectrin until my guy was itch free. No ill effects - just relief.

HOWEVER, as SSF pointed out - sometimes it is something else which is what I am dealing with now. BUT I am grateful that I found out about this thread my guy got a significant amount of dewormer and he needed it.

Now I just have a weird itch on his belly only. Before it was all over, stop eating, loose 300 lbs and have ulcers,get them out of me itching to just a couple of spots on his belly. Which we are treating by removing alfalfa and boosting his immune system with the addition of organic iodine. So far so good.

So I am not sure if the belly is a left over of the NTWs or maybe it was something different all together. Dont regret the DD one bit becuase it did stop the all over itch, has had him gained back 400lbs and eats every meal everytime. Oh, and no more signs of ulcers.

SSFLandon
Nov. 29, 2008, 07:27 PM
I had to do three months of some DD and weekly Ivermectrin until my guy was itch free. No ill effects - just relief.

HOWEVER, as SSF pointed out - sometimes it is something else which is what I am dealing with now. BUT I am grateful that I found out about this thread my guy got a significant amount of dewormer and he needed it.

Now I just have a weird itch on his belly only. Before it was all over, stop eating, loose 300 lbs and have ulcers,get them out of me itching to just a couple of spots on his belly. Which we are treating by removing alfalfa and boosting his immune system with the addition of organic iodine. So far so good.

So I am not sure if the belly is a left over of the NTWs or maybe it was something different all together. Dont regret the DD one bit becuase it did stop the all over itch, has had him gained back 400lbs and eats every meal everytime. Oh, and no more signs of ulcers.

wow that is alot of weight!! glad your horse is doing better. What is and or how is iodine (the type you are referring too is not the type used for cleaning wounds I'm assuming:winkgrin:? I've not heard of this.

HandsomeBayFarm
Nov. 30, 2008, 01:03 PM
Well, it was a lot of weight! ;)

Anywho - in working with a holistic vet, she is having me take his temp every AM and record for 2 weeks. When I explained that I had treated for NTWs but couldnt rid the belly of the itch, she said that his immune system probably isnt up to par, therefore he cant heal it on his own.

His temp was 96 when she took it, on a 60o day at 11am. So she said adding the organic iodine (supplied by her - not the wound cleaning kind) should help give him the boost he needs (helps his thyroid) which should take care of the belly itch. O yea, and I was to stop the alfalfa that he was eating (albeit 1 lb a day) as that was a supressent.

So far so good. Not as itchy on the belly. :)

SSFLandon
Nov. 30, 2008, 03:43 PM
Well, it was a lot of weight! ;)

Anywho - in working with a holistic vet, she is having me take his temp every AM and record for 2 weeks. When I explained that I had treated for NTWs but couldnt rid the belly of the itch, she said that his immune system probably isnt up to par, therefore he cant heal it on his own.

His temp was 96 when she took it, on a 60o day at 11am. So she said adding the organic iodine (supplied by her - not the wound cleaning kind) should help give him the boost he needs (helps his thyroid) which should take care of the belly itch. O yea, and I was to stop the alfalfa that he was eating (albeit 1 lb a day) as that was a supressent.

So far so good. Not as itchy on the belly. :)

but, what is organic iodine? what form is it in...anything I can google?

jaimebaker
Nov. 30, 2008, 04:53 PM
but, what is organic iodine? what form is it in...anything I can google?

Google iodide powder (yes, with a D). I'm going to assume this is what she's talking about.

SSFLandon
Nov. 30, 2008, 06:57 PM
Google iodide powder (yes, with a D). I'm going to assume this is what she's talking about.


ahhh, I could not figure that out....so it's a form of iodine. Hmm, interesting I've never used this. I'll have to ask my vets about it as my horse has a low thyroid and we are taking her off her thyroid L becuase it's questionable at her age...and a whole long story that goes with that.....

SmallHerd
Dec. 9, 2008, 03:41 PM
Okay, I have another question. My horse lives on pasture 24/7 and was on a good de-worming regimen. However, at the beginning of last spring, he started passing a bit of liquid with each bowel movement. I thought it was the rich grass growing in. Each time they would rotate the pasture, it would get worse but eventually get better, so I didn't think too much of it.

Then I read this thread. I did the DD of Equimax, then another 2 weeks later. Fast forward about 2 months, and now he is eating off the roundbale, and the liquid is back with a vengance. MUCH more than before. And he is rubbing his tail like crazy.

Any suggestions? Maybe this is not parasite related?

gabz
Dec. 9, 2008, 03:50 PM
the DD equimax is not intended to stop diarhea.

Have you consulted your vet?

EqTrainer
Dec. 9, 2008, 09:10 PM
Okay, I have another question. My horse lives on pasture 24/7 and was on a good de-worming regimen. However, at the beginning of last spring, he started passing a bit of liquid with each bowel movement. I thought it was the rich grass growing in. Each time they would rotate the pasture, it would get worse but eventually get better, so I didn't think too much of it.

Then I read this thread. I did the DD of Equimax, then another 2 weeks later. Fast forward about 2 months, and now he is eating off the roundbale, and the liquid is back with a vengance. MUCH more than before. And he is rubbing his tail like crazy.

Any suggestions? Maybe this is not parasite related?


Has he ever been Powerpacked?

SmallHerd
Dec. 9, 2008, 10:42 PM
Has he ever been Powerpacked?

That's where I was going with this. His poop is normal, except for a bit of liquid at the end. He hasn't been power packed in the 18 months that I have owned him. I didn't even think about that. Thanks!!

Altamont Sport Horses
Dec. 10, 2008, 06:21 AM
This might not be a parasite issue. Sounds more like digestion and reminds me of a friend's horse who would get diarrhea in the winter while he was eating hay. She struggled with diarrhea for over 4 years before he gave some additional symptoms which he never did before. Fecal tests, etc. were negative. He went off his feed and was a bit lethargic which was very unusual for this happy eater. He ate very little grain prior to that (1/2-1 lb per day) but I suggested she try alfalfa to soothe his stomach in the event he had or was developing ulcers. His diarrhea cleared up in 4 days and he was eating well. He's not had problems since.

I wonder if your horse is lacking enough beneficial bacteria in his gut to properly digest forage. They have less trouble with grass but it becomes harder to digest with hay. And when you deworm your horse you knock out a lot of the beneficial bacteria in his gut so he needs a course of probiotics after deworming as well as anytime they have been stressed, injured, on lay-up.

It could be overly rich grass and hay.

So, to understand better...What exactly does your horse eat? And what kind of hay is he eating now? Does he get a balanced vitamin/mineral supplement?

EqTrainer
Dec. 10, 2008, 08:26 AM
Certainly I would add pre and probiotics to his diet.. after he were PP'd. 18 months and no PP.. well, that's the place to start!

SmallHerd
Dec. 10, 2008, 09:03 AM
Thank you both so much! He has lived on pasture his entire life (grass and hay only, no grain). I don't think he was on a good worming regimen before I bought him either. I need to find out exactly what kind of hay he is being fed, but I do know it is a good looking timothy mix. He is totally fine otherwise (weight, brightness, coat, etc.).

I'll give him a PP this weekend and get some alphafa cubes for him. Can I give him a does of probiotics that will be effective or is this something that needs to be given on a regular basis (daily, etc.) to be effective?

Altamont Sport Horses
Dec. 10, 2008, 10:17 AM
I would recommend doing one thing at a time. He might not need the alfalfa anyway if he isn't getting any grain. I'd try it in this order. Power Pack, follow-up with probiotics for a week. Then see if he is doing better.

The thing about timothy is *I think* it is high in sugars. Have you read www.safergrass.org?

I would do probiotics on a fairly regular basis. Try it for a week once a month and see how he does. I buy the powder and put in grain meals but that won't work for you. I would think your boy needs some vitamin and mineral supplements because he will be missing out in the grass and hay. Also, he will be low in Omega 3's and Lysine which is an essential amino acid. You may be able to find a supplement that covers vitamins, minerals, Omega 3's, Lysine and probiotics. I know you can find the first four together. I just started one of mine on LinPro from www.foxdenequine.com This is produced by one of our COTH resident equine nutritionists. And if you are giving him some pelleted supplements it may be easy to put powdered probiotics in there. NOt sure if there are pelleted probiotics, I've never looked. Of course you could always give a handful of alfalfa just as a carrier to get the supplements in him.

SmallHerd
Dec. 10, 2008, 02:58 PM
He does have access to a trace mineral block all the time and seems so healthy overall. I will start the PP Friday, and follow that up with probiotics, then see where we end up.

He is also a very good eater of all things that are offered, so to give him supplements won't be a problem. I can give him a handful of anything with the powder in it and he will devour it.

THANK YOU!!

HandsomeBayFarm
Dec. 12, 2008, 10:17 AM
So the old guy is back to scratching. All over. Before he would not scratch in the pasture....just beg me to scratch his belly. Now I see him on fence posts rubbing his hind quarters and he attacks me to rub his belly.

We just PP and the 1.5 Anthlecide was give on 12/8.

Worst thing - his weight is dropping.....again. I cant let this happen.

I took him off the alfalfa pellets and added organic iodide per my vets (holistic side) request. She thought his immune system was compressed therefore he couldnt fit the itchies on his own.....well that isnt doing the trick.

Should I DD EM 14 days from 12/8???

He was doing SO good after August when we first started this. He was fat and happy and shiny and NOT itchy.

Ugh!

Thanks for any help!

EqTrainer
Dec. 12, 2008, 08:37 PM
HB - ask her to do a scraping on his midline, where his itchies were the worst before.

If you just dewormed him on the 8th, he could be dealing with more dieoff. Considering his age and the degree of infestation you suspected he had, perhaps when you switched classes of dewormer you killed off a whole bunch more.

Have you tried an antihistimine on him?

HandsomeBayFarm
Dec. 15, 2008, 10:36 AM
EqT: thanks! I just wish he didnt have the weight loss which I *think* is a result of the worrisome from the itchies.

I will call the vet out soon. Now he has a gooey eye. Ugh!

gabz
Dec. 15, 2008, 11:56 AM
Handsome... maybe boosting his immune system would be beneficial. Vit E, Selenium if you are in a low area, and Vitamin C which recycles the Vit E. Vit A wouldn't hurt either.

Good luck.

HandsomeBayFarm
Dec. 15, 2008, 12:10 PM
Thanks gabz. I do the supp of Vita E & S. I *think* he gets sufficent Vita A thru the GroStrong minerals which I switched to over the summer and has helped the chronic gooey (both) eye horse (another horse).

The old guy just wont cut me a break. :(

The vet that wanted to boost immune system had be take him off Alfalfa stating it was a suppressent. I think he has lost weight since then. And I have recorded his temp for 2 weeks now and he is still in the 96-98 range on average. Maybe the iodide takes longer to effect him?

Will look into the Vita C.

gabz
Dec. 15, 2008, 12:33 PM
Is he getting any oil? Oil will block Vit E.

I was thinking along the lines of mega doses for a week or so. As in loading doses of immune boosters.

I didn't know that about Alfalfa being a suppressant. hmm...

Is the iodine to help his thyroad AND boost the immune system or just the thyroid issue?

Makes you want to stop everything and and start all over sometimes, doesn't it?

:confused:

PonyPile
Dec. 15, 2008, 02:41 PM
Heck, I'm so freaked out, I think I'll get a tube for myself too!!! :dead:

I was just thinking the same thing!:o

HandsomeBayFarm
Dec. 15, 2008, 05:16 PM
Is he getting any oil? Oil will block Vit E.

I was thinking along the lines of mega doses for a week or so. As in loading doses of immune boosters.

I didn't know that about Alfalfa being a suppressant. hmm...

Is the iodine to help his thyroad AND boost the immune system or just the thyroid issue?

Makes you want to stop everything and and start all over sometimes, doesn't it?

:confused:


Oh heck. He was getting oil. I stopped that when he got too plump. He was GREAT after about 4 treatments of DD em and weekly Ivermecs. Fat and happy (Sept thru mid-Nov). But I never really solved the itchy belly. Wasnt horrible itchy - just itchy.

So then when vet came ( she is my holistic one ) I asked for a skin scrapping and instead got the iodide to help immune system/thyroid. And removed alf per her. Taking temp for two weeks also.

I was afraid as belly got itchier and he started loosing weight I was in for it. His mood is good - he was a beast before I learned of this thread (almost put him down) so he is still eating and happy - just itchy. Now it is all over his body again.

As EqT said maybe it is die off. I do have a new gooey eye as of yesterday and this AM. So I will watch that. Vet due back out this week for diff horse so I will have her re-check.

Weight is holding, not ideal. And not like he was a month ago.

gabz
Dec. 15, 2008, 05:48 PM
So sorry it's such an ongoing thing.

I guess you still have the option of doing a skin scraping though.

Remember too that the adult onchocerca live for years and years and years and are always producing new NTWs... so conceivably, he could still be infested with them.

I can't see your location, so I don't know if seasonal changes make a difference or not. Doesn't seem like it would after reading everything here. It's just no midges to pass along new infestations that stops when it gets cold.

HandsomeBayFarm
Dec. 16, 2008, 10:02 AM
Charleston, SC and it is close to 80 today and we have flies again.

Gooey eye thing gone last night and still clear this AM. Was that worm die off or just dirt?

Gonna try to get him some relief with antihistamines and demand a skin scrape.

Thanks!

EqTrainer
Dec. 16, 2008, 03:22 PM
HBF - your old guy might be a really good candidate for flax. Don't remember.. what are you using as a fat source? Feel free to take this to email if it's easier :)

I'm EBO
Dec. 31, 2008, 03:27 PM
At what time of the year would you double the Equimax if you had a horse afflicted with Sweet Itch problems? (Horse in question came to me as a weanling from a BNBreeder, but FULL of round worms.) Several years later, someone thought she had microfiliae, with little lumps on her neck. (Her breeder had a huge dairy, btw.)

Would you dose just prior to the midge season? Now?

Thanks.

horsechick
Jan. 4, 2009, 11:48 PM
just bumping that last question as my guy developed a very itchy neck last summer with a couple of suspect areas...maybe sarcoid, but it's gone now. I just gave him Equimax yesterday and am wondering about the timing of the DDEP program.

gabz
Jan. 5, 2009, 09:37 AM
I think that part of the timing is based on geography/ weather.

I would imagine that south of the Mason-Dixon line (so to speak), anytime is good.

Maybe someone recalls from all the info linked, if onchocerca has a cycle based on length of day or warmth or anything like that.

ChocoMare
Jan. 7, 2009, 03:15 PM
I, hopefully, will have some evenings free in the upcoming weeks so I can compile the data into something comprehensive.


I'm gonna tease you folks :D.... A nice lady wrote to me about 5 weeks ago about her filly. She was SEVERELY contracted and club-footed. She was on the verge of putting this girl down but, somehow, heard about me and asked if I could help. I immediately referred her to this thread AND my farrier/trimmer.

Well that lady sent me updated pictures about an hour ago and THEY ARE AMAZING!!!! :eek:....in a very, very good way :) I am waiting to get permission from her to post the pictures, as well as hear from Little D to get the story behind the pics.

mbm
Jan. 7, 2009, 04:01 PM
You have asked a question I also wonder about. Some say that the DD is just a few times but, when do you stop and consider something else the problem? Constantly deworming does have side effects....

for those that have found good results that's great...I'm just curious from the experts on this thread who you suggest if your DD several times fails??

the most scary sde effect is that the worms are adapting ... and every person that over worms (ie continous DDing and worming every 6 weeks etc) adds to the problem. soon ivermectin wont be effective anymore and it is one of the only wormers that is affective to a wide range of worms and there is no replacement on the horizon.

try doing a search on ivermetin resiistence - i think it is like 60% as effective as it was 20 years ago when it was introduced.... you may just change the way you worm.

EqTrainer
Jan. 7, 2009, 04:22 PM
the most scary sde effect is that the worms are adapting ... and every person that over worms (ie continous DDing and worming every 6 weeks etc) adds to the problem. soon ivermectin wont be effective anymore and it is one of the only wormers that is affective to a wide range of worms and there is no replacement on the horizon.

try doing a search on ivermetin resiistence - i think it is like 60% as effective as it was 20 years ago when it was introduced.... you may just change the way you worm.


Please explain exactly how by killing them, you create resistance?

It is the UNDER deworming that people do that creates resistance.

Not to mention, people who only use daily dewormer and the twice a year ivermectin... aieeeeee... think of all the worms those horses never get dewormed for... OneLaneRode, where are you with your latest gathering on that? :winkgrin:

Horses have gotten bigger and the tubes haven't.

mbm
Jan. 7, 2009, 04:53 PM
by *overusing* a drug teh entities you are trying to irradicate becme resistent.... ie: they evolve so that they arent as affected....

all you have to do is do a google search

http://www.pasturecleaner.com/pasturecleaner/info/parasitecontrol.htm

"Equine nematode parasites have reached alarming levels of anthelmintic resistance world-wide. There is substantial evidence documenting resistance across multiple continents to all anthelmintic drugs on the equine market. "


http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/parascres.htm

"Further evidence of parasitic worms becoming resistant to ivermectin and moxidectin has been found. "

http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/5/212790.html
http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?id=11668

etc etc etc

this is all due to OVERUSE of ivermectin. people worm too much. if you worm using the more modern method of fecal egg counts and timing you keep resistnece to a minumum and keep your horses healthy

gabz
Jan. 7, 2009, 05:13 PM
by *overusing* a drug teh entities you are trying to irradicate becme resistent.... ie: they evolve so that they arent as affected....

all you have to do is do a google search

http://www.pasturecleaner.com/pasturecleaner/info/parasitecontrol.htm

"Equine nematode parasites have reached alarming levels of anthelmintic resistance world-wide. There is substantial evidence documenting resistance across multiple continents to all anthelmintic drugs on the equine market. "


http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/parascres.htm

"Further evidence of parasitic worms becoming resistant to ivermectin and moxidectin has been found. "

http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/5/212790.html
http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?id=11668

etc etc etc

this is all due to OVERUSE of ivermectin. people worm too much. if you worm using the more modern method of fecal egg counts and timing you keep resistnece to a minumum and keep your horses healthy

Fecal eggs counts do NOT detect many parasites. FECs do not detect the parasite that this entire thread addresses which are the microfilarae from onchocerca. FEC do not detect encysted stages of some parasites nor any parasite that is not currently shedding eggs. Parasites exist in many different forms - eggs, larvae, juvenile, mature, encysted, etc.
FEC do not detect bot eggs which live in the stomach. FEC do not detect tapeworms.

Overuse does not lead to resistance - MIS-use leads to resistance. Underdosing and not following the proper timeframe between dosing. Listen to the radio and tv when they talk about antibiotic resistance in people. It's because people do not take the entire dose they should be taking. They stop after 5 or 6 days instead of taking it for the full 10 - 14 days. aka underdosing.

The 60% resistance was found on BREEDING farms amongst weanlings. Situations where there is continually a high parasite load to begin with until young horses build up resistance to certain types of parasites. Not in the general populace. And, if I recall, those farms used 8 week ivermectin rotation and no other class of anthelminic?

gabz
Jan. 7, 2009, 05:22 PM
From this link: http://www.pasturecleaner.com/pasturecleaner/info/parasitecontrol.htm

In northern temperate climates, refugia are smallest during the winter, where development of free-living stages occurs at a very low rate. In contrast, refugia are smallest during summer in warm temperate and subtropical/tropical climates, where hot temperatures decreases survival of third stage infective larvae.

This discussion also references some studies on resistance for some parasites. I would not have called it conclusive though. This discussion uses the term refugia as being the small minority of parasite stages that have survived a treatment. It recommends backing off on anthelmintics during those periods of time.

This is exactly why rotations specific to regions are necessary and why it is always recommended that people discuss and formulate a rotation with their equine vet.

Which is why here in the north, I schedule 8 weeks between treatments in the winter months and 6 weeks in the summer - which coincides with my farrier appointments. : )

mbm
Jan. 7, 2009, 05:26 PM
yes, of course incorrectly using something is a problem - but more importantly is the problem of people using drugs inappropriately - and creating a huge resistance problem.

if wormer's are used correctly (ie by using fecal egg counts *and* timing the worming to when it will be effective (eggs hatching, shedding etc etc etc)
then you get the most bang for your buck *and* you use as little as possible to get the results you want - this helps keep residence at bay.

exactly the same as antibiotics for people.

the worming schedules recommended by vet schools, the AAEP etc is based on fecal egg counts and correct timing. the every 6 week schedule is old school and was based on marketing.

and this double dose fad is really scary as all it will do is increase resistance.

gabz
Jan. 7, 2009, 05:33 PM
In regards to your second "reference" ...

Parascaris equorum, the large roundworm of horses, is a common parasite of foals. Older foals develop immunity to it, and it rarely causes problems in adult horses. Under optimum conditions, P. equorum eggs become infective within about two weeks of being passed in the faeces. At lower temperatures the eggs may survive for many years in stables and on pasture.

and

In a report in Veterinary Parasitology, Professor Owen Slocombe of the Ontario Veterinary College, and others describe how they found ivermectin- and moxidectin -resistant P. equorum on stud farms in Canada.


So. they found ivermectin/moxidectin resistance to one parasite and it is one that is most perilous to foals. However, the study says this:


Overall, they found that ivermectin reduced the Parascaris equorum faecal worm egg count by only 33.0% and moxidectin by 47.2%. In contrast, fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate were highly effective, reducing the faecal egg count by 97.6%. In fact, many foals had no P. equorum eggs in the faeces after treatment with fenbendazole or pyrantel.

and it's summary is this:

This study emphasises that a single dewormer cannot be assumed to control all species of worms in foals. It may well be necessary to use more than one type of dewormer to control all the potential parasite problems in foals.


So. resistance exists and rotating is the answer. NOT stopping regular deworming treatments. When the parasites developed resistance to non-ivermectin treatments, then ivermectin was used. When there was resistance to ivermectin, they switched back to the other classes. No where does it say that too many/ too frequent doses cause resistance.
This study supports the idea of yearly rotation amongst classes. Use ivermectin/moxidectin for a year, then switch to the -dazoles.

mbm
Jan. 7, 2009, 05:41 PM
"Parasiticidal Resistance Reported in New Study
June 19 2008, Article # 12105
Kentucky researchers report that roundworms and small strongyles, two common equine intestinal parasites, are developing resistance against most of the commercially available worming products. What's worse, no new drugs against either of these parasites are forthcoming on the market."

https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12105

i am not going to do dueling links with you. :) but my reading has led me to change how i worm and has caused me to be worried about the future of worming..... . <shrug>

gabz
Jan. 7, 2009, 06:10 PM
mbm - have you read how the 5-day power paks work?

They knock out a very large percentage of parasites the first dose, then the 2nd day, they get another percentage; on the 3rd day, it takes out nearly all the parasites that that class of dewormer targets. the 4th day picks up some more stragglers. The 5th day is a "just in case" dose.

It won't get all the targeted parasites. But it takes at least 3 days of DOUBLE DOSE to clean out the horse of the targeted parasites.

The same is true for the DD Equimax or DD Ivermectin against THIS (microfilarae from onchocerca) specific type of parasite. No one is advocating everyone should do this - only to target the specific parasite and the condition - whether it's the summer itches / midline itchies or the contracted tendons.

It's like taking steroids. My doctor doesn't want me on them all the time - but there ARE instances when I - and other people - have to take them. I start out with a large dose (6 pills) and it tapers down to 1 pill over a week. It's for a specific problem and hopefully, it lasts a year or two before the condition returns.

I hope this analogy helps some folks to understand.

mbm
Jan. 7, 2009, 09:50 PM
i didnt say there was anything inherently wrong about double dosing (with vet approval) - however, my point is - the *fad* of double dosing for any old suspected reason is one thing that is helping spread resistance to ivermectin - just like people taking (or giving) antibiotics for any old reason is helping reduce the effectiveness of antibiotics.

it is just common sense.

TheOrangeOne
Jan. 7, 2009, 11:06 PM
Out of curiosity, what would be the current, COTH-approved worming program, comprehensive to include hoof worms? ;) No, kidding on the hoof worms, but I am curious.

ChocoMare
Jan. 8, 2009, 06:02 AM
I'm gonna tease you folks :D.... A nice lady wrote to me about 5 weeks ago about her filly. She was SEVERELY contracted and club-footed. She was on the verge of putting this girl down but, somehow, heard about me and asked if I could help. I immediately referred her to this thread AND my farrier/trimmer.

Well that lady sent me updated pictures about an hour ago and THEY ARE AMAZING!!!! :eek:....in a very, very good way :) I am waiting to get permission from her to post the pictures, as well as hear from Little D to get the story behind the pics.

Ok, got permission and the whole story from the owner:

Annie’s feet were obviously ‘going bad’ at around 2 months. By 3 my regular farrier said, "You need to find someone that can help you with this – it is out of my league."

I talked to several different farriers and vets and did everything they said (except surgery) – the early weaning at 4 months, reduced quality of feed, special trims, special cuffs.. and her feet continued to get worse.

I am on the Carriage Driving List and happened to have a sleepless night one night and followed a thread someone posted about threadworms and itchy skin. Eventually it ended up at the C of the H site, and there was a reference to club feet. I followed that line.. and found you!

November 10 I double dosed Annie with Equimax for the first time. (she was the single itchiest baby we had ever seen! She would turn inside out for a good scratching. She never had any sores, before or after the E-Max.) She continued to get worse.

Then found you and DJ, double dosed again and 2 weeks later was able to have DJ come here (and meet with my regular farrier and my back-up guy) work on Annie and explain what she did, how and why. (By then, with 2 double doses of E-Max at work, her lower legs were already gaining in flexibility.)

Annie was immediately more comfortable, and within 3 days, except for those awkward, heavy casts, walked ‘normally’ – that is, her strides were normal, legs back under her shoulders instead of stretched out in front, she was no longer using her back and hocks to stay up, and the tendons, etc at the fronts of her front legs relaxed. Her shoulders softened, as did her knotted up back muscles.

I diligently filed her heels every day or 2 and walked her 2x daily, then 3, increasing amts, up and down hills, and finally turned her loose in the barn all day every day. (Fields too wet and hilly to safely put her out with casts on her feet.) After 3 ½ weeks, one of the cast/shoes started sounding loose (like loose shoes do when they are going to be really loose in a day or 2).

The plan was for DJ to come back (or my regular farriers to work on her, depending on schedules, etc) in 4 weeks, remove everything and reevaluate. With it being loose and potentially making a sore somewhere, DJ (was able to work her schedule around to come...a 3 Hour drive for her) took off the shoe/casts and I took more pictures.

I could tell before that, that they were definitely improving. Annie was ‘going to her heel’ every time I filed and I was taking as much as I could as fast as I could without her getting sore.

But when those casts came off and she went clear to her heel on the floor I almost cried. 3 ½ weeks!

We obviously aren’t ‘there’ yet, but looking at those pictures it sure looks possible, doesn’t it? She is 7 months old now, a grand little filly, very sensible and quick as a wink. If all continues on as she is now, in a couple months she will be able to go out and play in the pastures again while she grows into a sound and safe performance horse.

The before and after pictures tell it all.

--Jenny Bennett

The first picture is the BEFORE....the rest are after Jenny's and D.J.'s care. :) PICTURE 3 shows the cast still on the other toe/hoof.

NOTE: While this filly responded well, it is because Ms. Bennett did her "Home"work and followed instructions to the "T"....keeping up on the deworming, rasping those tiny heels AND making Annie exercise. Alas, D.J. has had clients with foals just as bad that didn't do as well, simply because the owner wouldn't do their part.

li'l bit
Jan. 8, 2009, 03:42 PM
WOW !!! Just absolutely amazing!!! You Rock, LittleD.

little D
Jan. 8, 2009, 04:20 PM
thank you very much. for you applause. I know Im not here much have to appologize.but tull my computer gets fixed well Im mostly out of touch. GABZ my hat goes off to you. thank you so much for standing behind this treatment. Atleast those that do dd are trying to do something for their horses and when all the expensive vet treatments dont work. well you take things in your own hands to help the ones you love.

gabz
Jan. 8, 2009, 04:36 PM
Out of curiosity, what would be the current, COTH-approved worming program, comprehensive to include hoof worms? ;) No, kidding on the hoof worms, but I am curious.

What does YOUR equine vet recommend?

EqTrainer has a very good rotation. Perhaps you can PM her and get her recommendations.

gabz
Jan. 8, 2009, 04:38 PM
thank you very much. for you applause. I know Im not here much have to appologize.but tull my computer gets fixed well Im mostly out of touch. GABZ my hat goes off to you. thank you so much for standing behind this treatment. Atleast those that do dd are trying to do something for their horses and when all the expensive vet treatments dont work. well you take things in your own hands to help the ones you love.

Um.. not me. It was ChocoMare who is the "enabler". You are the bomb LittleD for your perseverance and treatment of all the horses suffering.
It was this thread that showed me the error of MY ways (I underestimated my horses' weights and hence, was underdosing some treatments). But it DID help 2 of my horses big time.

Thanks LittleD!!

little D
Jan. 8, 2009, 08:18 PM
Today I showed a vet the story and pics from tennesee. He informed me that he fixes these clubbed horses with no problem with 2 day treatments of oxytetracycline. BS big time!! this has been tried many times the vets that I worked for said it didnt work period and if it did why hasnt he (the vet) used it on a client that I am working on her clubbed horses he is the vet for. unbelievable. and I get this alot. so even though you need to listen to your vets and learn. If your vet is in denial about this. you may not be getting the whole picture of other mattters.

TheOrangeOne
Jan. 8, 2009, 10:19 PM
What does YOUR equine vet recommend?

EquineLaw has a very good rotation. Perhaps you can PM her and get her recommendations.
I was just curious, is all- I have my program but in light of all these creepies that I have never even heard of, I was wondering what the ones who are more aware of the parasites than I do.

ChocoMare
Jan. 12, 2009, 07:52 AM
ADDENDUM TO ANNIE'S STORY:

Seems her story, photos, etc. caused quite a stir and my farrier has been getting phone calls & e-mails....all good tho!!! :yes:

A lot of folks wanted more of Annie's "Before" story, so here it is straight from her owner, Jenny Bennett:

I would like to say that BEFORE we did the double dose of Equimax, Annie’s pasterns Could Not Extend forward any more than they are in that picture (see above prior post).

I stretched her leg forward and set the bottom of her foot on the ground, way out in front of her and then tried to ease her forward to where her own 350# was pushing on those tendons and ligaments. They did not give a bit. She just rolled up onto her toes and then over onto the fronts of her hooves. I could not hold her leg and using my hands, extend her toes forward where they belonged. They wouldn’t go. (of course – if her 350# was not enough to stretch them, my hands surely would not)

After the 1st double dose of E-max, they were ‘softer’ and had a little flexibility. Not enough, but a little, and over the next 2 weeks, continued to improve. After the 2nd double dose, 2 weeks later, they were much more flexible, to the point that, with the first set of shoes/casts, right away, her pasterns were actually sloped, not vertical, or worse. They could not have if we had tried that 2 weeks earlier, while she was still ‘tight’.

I am convinced, from what I have seen and handled every day for the last 2 months with Annie that the problem she had was these parasites, and that one way or another they interfered with the ligaments’ and tendons’ growth and function. Anyone could see that what she needed was for those feet to be encouraged to be drawn forward somehow, but what had to happen first was flexibility of those ligaments and tendons. Shoes (with nails) on little baby feet are problematic. The combination of shoes, glue and casting tape applied to encourage proper carriage, gaits, comfort and growth is the Art of Farriery.

EqTrainer
Jan. 12, 2009, 12:08 PM
FWIW - I just read a huge study that reports **0** resistance to ivermectin in the USA.

You can forget using strongid anymore as daily dewormer use has created huge resistance, according to this study. Must use it w/an bendazole product.

Spellings will be all wrong here as I am trying to eat my lunch and type :lol:

gabz
Jan. 12, 2009, 12:49 PM
FWIW - I just read a huge study that reports **0** resistance to ivermectin in the USA.

You can forget using strongid anymore as daily dewormer use has created huge resistance, according to this study. Must use it w/an bendazole product.

Spellings will be all wrong here as I am trying to eat my lunch and type :lol:

Is the study online or published in paper? Can you give us a link if it's online?

WeDoItAll
Jan. 12, 2009, 01:04 PM
So ... the rest of the worm did come out; we didn't have to pull it. It was erupting for several days. The top of that area scabbed over, which I softened and then it came off. You could see the hole where the worm had come out, as well as about 1.5" around it where the skin had broken and is now healing. Most of the egg shaped area has reduced in swelling by at least half - it's only out from the leg (which still has some swelling) about 1/3".

She is definitely needing the second dose ... I just wondered about the others who have (and had) no symptoms/reaction at all.


So here's what we did -- we did three rounds of double dosing, 2 weeks apart, 4 weeks off. During this time, the weird horny growths (that she'd had for over 5 years - previously attributed to very bad mud fever) were coming off and looking much better. No further worm eruptions. After 4 weeks off, did another double dose, same leg started swelling again; did 2nd double dose and 4 days after second double dose, mare went down in field and couldn't get her rear end to work well enough to get back up.

We tried everything and the light was just gone in her eyes. We helped her cross over the bridge. I'm sorry it took me so long to report -- I just haven't been able to deal with it well.

First .... I am NOT saying this was directly attributable to the protocol, although I do think it had an influence.

Very sad ... she was a wonderful youth eventing horse.

gabz
Jan. 12, 2009, 01:15 PM
Oh my gosh - sorry to hear that happened.

You did double-doses of Equimax everytime? I didn't think anyone had done more than 2 of the DDE-max. Only 2 rounds of that and then Ivermectin for follow-up.

Of course, I don't think anyone else had erupting worms like you had.

so sorry.

ChocoMare
Jan. 12, 2009, 01:36 PM
So here's what we did -- we did three rounds of double dosing, 2 weeks apart, 4 weeks off. During this time, the weird horny growths (that she'd had for over 5 years - previously attributed to very bad mud fever) were coming off and looking much better. No further worm eruptions. After 4 weeks off, did another double dose, same leg started swelling again; did 2nd double dose and 4 days after second double dose, mare went down in field and couldn't get her rear end to work well enough to get back up.

We tried everything and the light was just gone in her eyes. We helped her cross over the bridge. I'm sorry it took me so long to report -- I just haven't been able to deal with it well.

First .... I am NOT saying this was directly attributable to the protocol, although I do think it had an influence.

Very sad ... she was a wonderful youth eventing horse.

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear of this :cry: Was a necropsy done? Only asking because, perhaps, we could all learn from her story.

((( Hugs )))

WeDoItAll
Jan. 12, 2009, 02:10 PM
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear of this :cry: Was a necropsy done? Only asking because, perhaps, we could all learn from her story.

((( Hugs )))

First ... my vet was onboard with the protocol (not familiar with it, but after discussions was game -- particularly after the eruption!). We gave the 4 week break purposefully on his recommendation.

We didn't do a formal necropsy. For those interested, here's an album of photos of what her legs looked like during treatment.

http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p84/criker99/Hannah/

(hopefully the album link works). BE WARNED - there is a photo in there of my daughter while Hannah is down. DD insisted on a "last photo" with one of her best friends. I don't know how she managed it -- she was in tears, but wanted it to be a happy photo - she faked it quite well.

It was interesting, DD's response. She knew, obviously, we were working with this protocol. This last summer she had the opportunity to participate in a clinic where they dissected a horse's leg. She actually asked if she thought we could do that to Hannah's leg and see once and for all what was going on in there. We talked about it, and as much as the curiousity was there, we decided that in reality we didn't think we could pull it off emotionally. This, along with the fact that we wouldn't necessarily have the knowledge to know what we were looking at.

The vet was out of town and not due back, so a standard necropsy wasn't available. Of course the worst part is having to call the renderer to take her body away. We aren't allowed to bury them here.

ChocoMare
Jan. 12, 2009, 02:16 PM
Oh my :cry: What a trooper she was.

Thank you for quantifying to all here that you DID have your vet involved in the whole process.

(((( some more hugs )))))

li'l bit
Jan. 12, 2009, 02:47 PM
We tried everything and the light was just gone in her eyes. We helped her cross over the bridge. I'm sorry it took me so long to report -- I just haven't been able to deal with it well.



Very sad ... she was a wonderful youth eventing horse.[/QUOTE]

I am so sorry to read of your loss. Hugs and warm wishes to you and your DD.

mbm
Jan. 12, 2009, 04:18 PM
wow! i am so sorry for your loss. I am absolutely gob smacked at what was coming out of her leg !!! does the vet not know what it was?

(the below is not directed at you - just my comments about this thread in general )

while reading her post i recalled that i have read (no, i cant remember the links) that folks have to be very careful when de-worming especially for horses with suspected heavy worm loads - something about theaffect of all those dead and dying worms evacuating the horse can be a real problem and can possible do extreme damage. .

while i support people in their efforts to help their horses i just hope that those that are going crazy with this Double dose routine stop and think about what they are dong.

wormer is a very powerful drug after all.

ChocoMare
Jan. 12, 2009, 04:41 PM
Then, MBM, I will reiterate what has been stated before but, perhaps, missed in the myriad of pages/posts:

Everything should be done with caution and under the supervision of a veterinarian, as WeDoItAll did. If after three double doses, NO change is seen for the better, then the owner can safely assume that it is not NTW-related and should seek out further veterinary care, up to and including seeing a specialists at a University.

gabz
Jan. 12, 2009, 04:52 PM
wow! i am so sorry for your loss. I am absolutely gob smacked at what was coming out of her leg !!! does the vet not know what it was?

(the below is not directed at you - just my comments about this thread in general )

while reading her post i recalled that i have read (no, i cant remember the links) that folks have to be very careful when de-worming especially for horses with suspected heavy worm loads - something about theaffect of all those dead and dying worms evacuating the horse can be a real problem and can possible do extreme damage. .

while i support people in their efforts to help their horses i just hope that those that are going crazy with this Double dose routine stop and think about what they are dong.

wormer is a very powerful drug after all.

mbm - Yes, common sense has to be used at all times when adopting protocols read about on websites;

When a horse has a high parasite load there can be 2 different repercussions from high kill off. One is when there is a large number of stomach worms (typically foals) that die and then block the intestines.
The 2nd event is when there is a high parasite kill off and that creates toxins in the horse and leads to colic and other fatal illnesses.

When a horse has not been on an adequate deworming program, it can obviously begin to harbor large numbers of a parasites. There is anywhere from 50 - 160 different parasites that are "native" to horses. They do not all shed eggs so fecal counts are not always accurate. There are 50 -160 different types of parasites that can exist in many different stages, throughout the horse - in tissues of the mouth, muscles, heart, lungs, other internal organs, stomach, intestines, etc. etc. The parasites in their various forms of life stages migrate throughout the horse.

When a horse's previous deworming history is unknown or questionable, I always recommend a mild paste dewormer to knock out a percentage of parasites; then a week or 2 later, something a little stronger; then 2 weeks later something like Quest, Quest +, Equimax, to take out any remaining parasites AND to take out any newly hatched parasites - because with some types, they lay dormant in a juvenile form until they sense "room". So if the mature ones are knocked off, that leaves room for an earlier stage to hatch or migrate. Some dewormers are only active against mature stages of certain parasites so once the adult form is killed, the newly emerging mature has to be targeted soon afterwards; other dewormers are active against encysted stages of other parasties. etc.

So far as the worm in the horse's leg - that's exactly what this thread is about. While that worm might not have been onchocerca - it could have been since the adults can grow up to 12" long. The migrating microfilarae and onchocerca that travel beneath the skin - through the tissues of the horse and cause severe itching; OR the ones that settle in the ligaments and tendons of infected horses - usually foals - and create damage of contracted tendons. Mature Onchocerca live in the muscles of the neck of horses close to the spine. (nuchum ligatae or whatever) There is nothing to kill them. They continue to release eggs that become adults that travel throughout the horse.

Horses are fragile animals and their intestinal systems are easily impacted. I do not advocate continual high doses of dewormers, but I do think that there are times when it is necessary to truly kill off parasites - in their myriad forms.

little D
Jan. 14, 2009, 04:57 PM
keep in mind that it very well could have been something other than your deworming that put your horse down. I have been doing research on this for over 10 year and to date I have never had the results that occurred here. Sorry for your lose.

JB
Jan. 14, 2009, 06:07 PM
"Parasiticidal Resistance Reported in New Study
June 19 2008, Article # 12105
Kentucky researchers report that roundworms and small strongyles, two common equine intestinal parasites, are developing resistance against most of the commercially available worming products. What's worse, no new drugs against either of these parasites are forthcoming on the market."

https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12105


The resistance of small strongyles is not the same resistance we're talking about, as in, no longer 100% die-off. The "resistance" with the small strongyles is that in a *few* instances, they are seeing an ERP of 4 weeks instead of the normal 8 weeks. Still 100% kill rate, but a faster re-appearance. The last that was published, that I read, which has only been in the last 2 months or so, there was nothing put out yet as to how to potentially address this, as a 4-week rotation with ivermectin is not necessarily the best route.

Resistance of ascarids (roundworms) to ivermectin is not new.


i didnt say there was anything inherently wrong about double dosing (with vet approval) - however, my point is - the *fad* of double dosing for any old suspected reason is one thing that is helping spread resistance to ivermectin - just like people taking (or giving) antibiotics for any old reason is helping reduce the effectiveness of antibiotics.

it is just common sense.
Where is there a fad of DD'ing for any ol' reason? It's not here. This thread has been *entirely* about DD'ing with Equimax (or ivermectin alone) for reasons thought to be due to adult onchocerca. That's it. Not for rainrot, not for ascarids, not dd'ing with moxidectin (eep!!). Equimax/ivermectin, and neck threadworms.


FWIW - I just read a huge study that reports **0** resistance to ivermectin in the USA.
Even for ascarids? I think that isn't quite correct. Ascarids are a known resistance issue here in the US. My vet has a client - breeding farm - where ascarid resistance to ivermectin is pretty high. She has them only using a double dose of fenbendazole on the foals for now.


You can forget using strongid anymore as daily dewormer use has created huge resistance, according to this study. Must use it w/an bendazole product.
This caught my attention, because somewhere recently I read someone mention using pyrantel pamoate *and* oxibendazole (aka Anthelcide) together for a bigger bang. I realize the daily dewormers are pyrantel tartrate, but if you give a high enough dosage of that, you can effectively mimic pyrantel pamoate.

EqTrainer
Jan. 14, 2009, 07:38 PM
I will check it tonight.

I may try to copy this and then post it somewhere, it is not on line and was in a vet journal.

onelanerode
Jan. 15, 2009, 09:27 AM
Please explain exactly how by killing them, you create resistance?

It is the UNDER deworming that people do that creates resistance.

Not to mention, people who only use daily dewormer and the twice a year ivermectin... aieeeeee... think of all the worms those horses never get dewormed for... OneLaneRode, where are you with your latest gathering on that? :winkgrin:

Horses have gotten bigger and the tubes haven't.

Funny you should ask!

Had a long chat about this over the holidays. We discussed what the daily dewormer targeted and what praziquantel* targeted. And then I asked what was being done to address encysted small strongyles, flukes and threadworms. *long pause*

Serious reservations about double dosing were expressed, and a fecal has been scheduled.

*Apparently Equimax was being used, not just ivermectin.

FlashGordon
Jan. 20, 2009, 08:53 AM
Bumping....

EqTrainer
Jan. 20, 2009, 10:01 AM
This study is 8 pages long.. and doesn't copy well as my copy is a copy of a copy :(

gabz
Jan. 23, 2009, 11:39 PM
bump for bumps on horse's back

SSFLandon
Jan. 24, 2009, 09:21 AM
I've been off the site for a bit and just saw this thread was still going. I am only here to say that I am glad some people are not just continuing to deworm their horses becauses the forums said so. I said long ago that this "protocol" is not necessarily the best idea and that people should speak to their vets first

I am sorry to hear of the horses who have had problems either do to the deworming and or of unknown reasons....

any chemical can be dangerous

gabz
Jan. 24, 2009, 09:36 AM
I've been off the site for a bit and just saw this thread was still going. I am only here to say that I am glad some people are not just continuing to deworm their horses becauses the forums said so. I said long ago that this "protocol" is not necessarily the best idea and that people should speak to their vets first

I am sorry to hear of the horses who have had problems either do to the deworming and or of unknown reasons....

any chemical can be dangerous

I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion? (that people are not just continuing to deworm their horses because the forums said so)

Some people feel uncomfortable about it. That's perfectly fine - but when anyone asks for suggestions, recommendations, etc. and others give that info, it's up to the person to decide - hopefully with a discussion with their vet - on how to proceed. sort of like Take it or Leave it.

As JB pointed out above
Where is there a fad of DD'ing for any ol' reason? It's not here. This thread has been *entirely* about DD'ing with Equimax (or ivermectin alone) for reasons thought to be due to adult onchocerca. That's it. Not for rainrot, not for ascarids, not dd'ing with moxidectin (eep!!). Equimax/ivermectin, and neck threadworms.


'nuff said.

Someone posted about bumps on their horse's back. As we've seen AND READ from research studies - serum pustules that appear, seem to be the dead/dying juvenile forms of onchocerca, aka Neck Thread Worms and microfilarae.

JB
Jan. 24, 2009, 10:06 AM
I've been off the site for a bit and just saw this thread was still going. I am only here to say that I am glad some people are not just continuing to deworm their horses becauses the forums said so. I said long ago that this "protocol" is not necessarily the best idea and that people should speak to their vets first

I am sorry to hear of the horses who have had problems either do to the deworming and or of unknown reasons....

any chemical can be dangerous
Huh? Again, who has advocated continuing to deworm the snot out of a horse just because there's a fungus? People have gone out of their way to say "if you've done this 3, even 4 times, and still having problems, STOP, because it's not a NTW issue". But guess what, some people have HAD to get that 4th dose in before they really saw results.

Everyone who has chimed in here has said this isn't necessarily the best idea and you SHOULD speak to your vet about it.

So, I don't understand your comments at all :confused:

little D
Jan. 24, 2009, 01:08 PM
First I must say that I probably will regret even posting this but here goes. I advocate deworning for rain rot and other fungus problems. I have studied this for the last ten years. No I have not had a lab but I am like others able to do clinical trials which I did do. I primarily did these for lameness problems but in the process found evidence that in fact what was thought to be fungus is most likely a parasite die off.
the parasites begin to die coming to the surface. as they do so coming out thru the hair folliculs. an abudance of them creates a scab like appearance. It has been noted by labs that a fungus grows under the scabby areas so it was beleived that a fungas was the cause. At some point more testing was done by some labs and then it was decided that there was a virus that was growing under the scabs and that must be what was causing the fungus. I maintain that the parasites die off presents the perfect enviroment for fungus and virus.
These parasites present different skin conditions for different stages of their larvae life. This can be proven by using the dewormers and noting the results.
I was a horse breeder. at the time that I did the testing I had 52 horses. I did different wormers and testing with different horses that primarily presented skin conditions. this was done over a ten year period. I can say without any dought that If I had not found a way to help these horses some would have definately died.
Most of you will find that your vets are very sceptical. I personally found that I did not like the answers that I was getting. allergies with expensive treatments was the main answer. there are millions of dollars every year spent on vet visits and treatments that only treat the symptoms not the problem. boy that sure is job security to treat the symptoms and not the problem.
One thing about this country. this is America. No one is twisting anyones arms to do anything to your horse. It is up to the owner to do what they believe to be right for them and their animals. If you want to take the advice of your vet and do nothing besides treating for symptoms thats up to the individual. On the other hand no one should tromple on those who are treating their own.
If you will look on the inserts of your equimax boxes in the indications for treatment it says for skin dermatitis it is the last one mentioned. for those that dont know what that is. this means skin disorders or conditions of the skin. Keep in mind that rain rot is a skin condition. It is also non specific.
This covers a broad spectrim of conditions. I am sure the makers of Equimax have done their home work.

little D
Jan. 24, 2009, 01:19 PM
keep in mind treatments sometimes do have undesiralbe results such as heart worm treatments for dogs. some do die from the treatments, but without them they would have perrished. Do we quit doing treatments because of this?
Many years ago I worked for a vet. I had a Great Dane given to me that had worms terribly I talked with the vet about the possibilitiy of the deworming killing him his statement was if you dont deworm what do you think will be the results. Of course it would be death his only chance was to deworm which we did and he thrived. Many do not. You cannot denounce those for taking definitive action. it is wrong. If you chose not to do it that is your business. I am so thankful to be an American where I am free to do this.

mybeau1999
Jan. 24, 2009, 04:41 PM
1000th post on this thread!

...sorry, had to do it. Now back to NTWs...;)

JB
Jan. 24, 2009, 06:20 PM
littleD, thank you, that was a fantastic post :yes:

I admit I had not seen the reference to "skin crud" on the Equimax box! Excellent to know - I know some people HAD "wormed the snot" out of a horse as an effort to help dermatitis issues.