Amazing--advice from J. Wofford (Grand National)

[deltawave]

Thanks to the poster on the "clinician" thread who reminded me to have a look at Jim Wofford's blog/website. On it is a link to the 2008 Grand National steeplechase, which he recommends watching.

It is astounding. He advises the watcher to observe the horses galloping at a terrific clip, jumping out of stride, and having very little difficulty doing so.

What struck me the most was the jockeys: hands on the withers, shoulders over the horse's shoulders, the horses were largely left to get on with the business of jumping without interference. Sure there were some falls, but these jumps are simply MASSIVE and even the loose horses were jumping them well.

Have a look. It's a clinic unto itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UJeJ1uwWaU

[gholem]

I find it odd that you think it is surprising the horses without riders jump the fences well. My intuition would be that the horse would jump better without having to carry something on its back. A horse with a rider has a higher center of mass and the rider has motions that must be more difficult for the horse to predict than that of its own body. Not to mention it doesn't have to push an extra ~130 lbs over the fence.

What are others thoughts on this? Do horses jump better with or without a rider?

Maybe in some very technical situations with a rider would be better just because the horse wouldn't understand what it was supposed to be doing on its own, but even then I would imagine that if you could somehow get the horse to understand he has jump over X and Y and then make this sharp turn and jump Z, he'd still be better off without a rider.

Tangent aside, I completely agree with the rest of your post :)

[LKF]

Thanks for sharing the link. As you can tell, it's not the fence that caused the problems but rather the other horse and riders. The riderless horses are dangerous to be around, but you can see how everyone was navigating around them. Excellent riding - and it's expected so there aren't any surprises to the jockeys.
I have noticed when we free jump our horses how much better they appear over fences. They move more free, stay in a tempo and have better action and style with their knees and necks.
I am constantly learning not to micro manage, leave the horse alone, let the horse 'think' for themselves. When I do, it's always a super fence. When I interfer, the photos show the horse dropping it's shoulder or knee.

[facinated]

Lots of people think that the rider is supposed to "place" the horse at a jump. or "find" a spot. The fact is that about 95 percent of riders do more harm than help in that area. If you are in a timber race and mess around on the way to a fence at speed you pay a BIG price. The fact that most horses can run down and jump a 4' fence without a rider just fine, says that the problem is usualy the rider, who is scared to "cast his heart..."

[Fence2Fence]

Yeah, that video is great. And it's certainly a clinic unto itself.

After my jumping lesson last night, I was looking at the pics my husband took. Trainer has me better balanced, deeper into my heels, keeping my shoulders with the horse (instead of riding defensively like I like to do). I was impressed at how nice my horse was jumping--with super tight and square knees. I'm not surprised though--the better balanced we are, the better they can go.

[deltawave]

I don't find it odd or surprising at all that the loose horses jumped fine. I just wanted to emphasize it, along with the complete LACK of picking, interfering, or "setting up" that the jockeys demonstrate. The horses at the end were obviously quite tired and getting long and low, but were still able to jump at speed, very balanced. Impressive to watch.

[Pixie Dust]

Does anyone know what the percentage of falls are in that race?

[clivers]

Thanks for the link DW - holy $hit those jumps are big!!!

I noticed over the first couple of jumps that even some of the riders who didn't pick fell just from getting close - You could tell the horses that were going down because they were the ones using their head/neck to clear the fence (as soon as you see the neck drop it seems you can tell that one is going to fall), but they ended up landing too steeply and falling.

One thing someone said about safety in steeplechasing is that the speed and perhaps the flatter jump means the riders are often thrown clear when the horse falls. That may make the proportion of falls that are "serious" fewer, but of the thirty odd starters, a fair number DID fall!! Not sure the final number, but close to 10-15%, no? Yikes! Too many falls, even if they are less serious, IMO.

[Fergs]

Along these same lines, Jim's latest blog entry includes a story about horses in the old calvary training program. In an attempt to settle a training dispute (about whether horses needed rider help to jump properly or not), 100 4-year-olds were assigned to either experienced officers or new recruits just starting to ride.

After 6 months all the horses faced a jumping test, and not surprisingly, those horses who had been assigned to inexperienced riders over the previous period jumped much better than those who had gone to the expert trainers. As Jim says, "The best and safest horses were the ones that had been allowed to figure it out for themselves."

http://jimwofford.blogspot.com/

[goobs]

I love watching those grand nationals on you tube (don't like when the horse and riders fall though!). Try jumping a big (from 3'6" to 4') grid without reins and you will see how much you interfere with the horse when it jumps. It's a huge eye opener. I was all over the place. Those exercises helped me to firmly put my balance where it belongs and to make sure to never get hangy or tight with my arms or hands. My lower leg is rock solid and my anchor. These jockeys look like they are anchored with their lower body and no flapping like a chicken over the jumps! Does anyone know what kind of bits they use? I would guess something soft.

Of course your jumps don't have to be as big as mine were - I would think even a small cavaletti pole would be an eye opener.

[bosox]

anyone know the outcome of the rider that went down at the 40ish second mark?

[Pixie Dust]

I haven't a clue as to the death rate of steeplechase horses, but a coworker/friend of mine liked to do that sort of thing (to watch.) She was in it for the social aspect. Anyway, one day (this is in Maryland) 2 horses in 2 different races fell and ended up being put down right in front of their little picnic area. I don't think she's been back since. (That's what she told me, I was never really clear on the details, like maybe they just fell, I don't know.)

The last time I went to the races (I guess it was timber) 2 horses were taken away by trailer. I'm not sure what happened to them, hopefully nothing too serious. In any case, it looks like a pretty dangerous sport. Kind of like a crap shoot with all the riders who tumble off.

[riverpup]

We really need a popcorn-munching smiley on this BB

[Carol Ames]

Many of the falls are a result of the landings being :eek:uphill. how often do we do that in eventing?:(i

[tlw]

An interesting thought popped into my head when watching the video. Does anyone think the "herd mentality" has anything to do with all the horses running and jumping with little direction by the jockey? I guess what I was wondering is whether because in a HT the horse is out there all alone (except for his rider) he relies on the rider more than himself whereas in a steeplechase there are lots of horses running together giving each other "encouragement?" Probably a silly thought, but. . . .

[Pixie Dust]

I don't think it's a silly thought. That's why all those riderless horses continued, though I noticed a few finally figured out how to go around the fences. You would never see a XC horse continue the course. That would be pretty funny though.

[Carol Ames]

http://www.imh.org/museum/history.php?chapter=105


Let' srememberJay Trump1 What a three day horse he would have made;I:lol: believe his owner did hunt him, or, , at least paraded him with the hounds :winkgrin:

[bornfreenowexpensive]

What are others thoughts on this? Do horses jump better with or without a rider?




generally I think they jump better. But more interesting...what Jimmy told me to focus on (since it is my tendancy)....is that NONE of the horses jumping loose take a flyer. They all add up when on that half stride. That is their nature...and is especially the nature of a good jumper. WE are the ones that often cause the horse to leave that stride out!!!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I don't think it's a silly thought. That's why all those riderless horses continued, though I noticed a few finally figured out how to go around the fences. You would never see a XC horse continue the course. That would be pretty funny though.


Not quite true.....some of those loose horses are in the lead. I've known several loose horses on xc who keep galloping around the course. One of my friend's horses got loose at Loundon in the fall and ran for 10 minutes, all over the place, occassionally joining the horses on course and jumping fences when they were in his way and then he would go off exploring the rest of the grounds. In the steeple chase though they are in a bit more of an enclosed space that funnels them to the jumps...and as you noticed, some of the loose horses do go around the jumps when convenient....and exit the course when it suits them.

[Pixie Dust]

Oh, I think any horse loose on XC galloping about is just looking for his herd. If he stays with the rider, then that's his herd (good horsey.)

And those riderless horses in the lead at the Grand National are just leading the herd.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Oh, I think any horse loose on XC galloping about is just looking for his herd. If he stays with the rider, then that's his herd (good horsey.)

And those riderless horses in the lead at the Grand National are just leading the herd.


Well, at least the event horses I was describing were not herd bound at all. The ones I was describing could care less where other horses were (at any time)....they were extremely independent beasts.....and to a certain extent, I think that contributed to them being fantastic xc horses. I do have other horses who like their herd and stick to their herd (person and other horses)....different personalities.

I have seen horses get loose xc who are looking for their herds....and others who are just out for a good time of galloping and exploring.

[Sandy M]

An interesting thought popped into my head when watching the video. Does anyone think the "herd mentality" has anything to do with all the horses running and jumping with little direction by the jockey? I guess what I was wondering is whether because in a HT the horse is out there all alone (except for his rider) he relies on the rider more than himself whereas in a steeplechase there are lots of horses running together giving each other "encouragement?" Probably a silly thought, but. . . .

If you read "The Will to Win," a biography of Jay Trump, the first American-owned/American-bred/American-ridden horse to win the Grand National at Aintree (1965), it is remarked that the British trainers found Jay Trump amazing in that, until he reach the absolute peak of fitness, he was still willing to do "dressage" work out on the gallops and - "amazingly" - would school over steeplechase fences BY HIMSELF - he did not need another horse with him to encourage him to jump. Apparently, most steeplechase schooling sessions are done "in groups" over the fences. (I will note, however, that in the movie "Champions", Aldaniti is shown schooling steeplechase brushes solo).

(I've always thought Jay Trump deserved some special recognition, having been a successful show hunter, field hunter, hurdler, steeplechaser - too bad he never got around to eventing!)

Carol Ames - he was indeed hunted - whipped off by a one-armed huntsman!

[Pixie Dust]

That was a REALLY good movie, Champions. Even if you aren't into horses.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Jay Trump is cool...I haven't seen that movie and will need to check it out.

Von Csadek was my fav though. Too bad he didn't get a chance at the Grand National...would have kicked butt. He got hurt while over there for it. He did go on to be a very good show jumper and was just a plain cool horse. If anyone knows of any video of him racing, please let me know! I've been hunting for some.

[Sandy M]

Another favorite of mine has always been Bold Minstrel. Show Hunter/Field Hunter/Olympic and Pan Am 3 day Medallist (the horse that replaced Mike Plumb's horse that was rather bloodily euthanized on the way to Tokyo), and later, Olympic Show Jumper Medallist (ridden by Bill Steinkraus). His owner/breeder, Mr. Haggard (who wanted to be on the Tokyo team but didn't make it and donated use of the horse to the team as a reserve), said that he was the best horse he ever had, and he was sure Bold Minstrel would have gotten around to getting a medal in dressage, had he lived long enough! ;0) I believe he was 3/4 TB, 1/4 "grade" (by Bold and Bad (?) out of "Wallis Simpson" (wonder what the story was behind THAT name for a grade mare - LOL)

Here's a pic from the Show Jumping Hall of Fame blurb for Bill Steinkraus:

http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/w_steinkraus.shtml

[vineyridge]

Don't forget that US timber races are very different from most European jumps racing. The US jumps are far less forgiving. The Grand National fences are not nearly as difficult as they were a few years back. The RSPCA and animal welfare groups are having a very powerful effect on British jumps racing these days.

We have mostly post and rails except in the new kind of jumps race called steeplethons. Steeplethons are way INTERESTING, especially for event riders. The course includes water jumps and ditches and other sorts of XC jumps, all jumped at speed and in company.

[lstevenson]

We have mostly post and rails except in the new kind of jumps race called steeplethons. Steeplethons are way INTERESTING, especially for event riders. The course includes water jumps and ditches and other sorts of XC jumps, all jumped at speed and in company.


Sounds cool. Where are they held?

[vineyridge]

a steeplethon run over a three-mile obstacle course that includes brush, timber, a ditch-and-hedge jump, a chicken coop, a sod-topped stone wall and an imposing 170-foot-long water jump not unlike the Reflecting Pool at the Washington Monument (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Washington_Monument/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) .
The steeplethon is the proud creation of Nick Arundel, the 75-year-old sugar granddaddy of Great Meadow, who stepped forward in 1982 when the former site of the Gold Cup, a leased course in Warrenton (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/Warrenton/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) , was about to fall to development. The newspaper publishing magnate bought a tract of swampy Fauquier farmland at auction for $2 million, intending, he says, to turn "the old crayfish field" into a racecourse like Aintree, home of Great Britain (http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/topic/article/United_Kingdom/1900-01-01/2100-12-31/mdd/index.htm) 's Grand National steeplechase.


From a Sports Illustrated article.

The Virginia Gold Cup is where it first showed up, but it's now on the card at lots of Hunt Races. In a lot of places, it's limited to horses that have fairly hunted in the past year.

[annikak]

the horses that are doing the grand national are doing their jobs- not being set up, and galloping along. The jocks are impressive, and I guess here is where i differ from the "equitation means everything" folks- as their "equitation" is getting the job done, and the horses are doing it well.

But they are not facing combinations, nor that much terrain change as our event horses do. My guess is if they were riderless, facing a corner to a sharp turn to a drop into water, the horse might take the sensible, easy way out. That's not bad- that's smart. I also think there is a bit of the monkey see- monkey do going on, too. I love it when my young horse watches the horse in front of him go and then does it himself. Helps all around.

And I have heard that its a 1 in 10 fall rate- that each jock thinks you're about right with that. Often called "easy" falls look scary to me! While I may shake my head, it's their culture, not mine, so if they think it's okay, then it's okay. In a past COTH mag article, there was a lot of chasing coverage, and there were at least 3 falls spoken about. That seemed high to me- and they showed pictures of the falls. PLEASE NOTE! I am in no way condeming the sport- I think it's great, and they really don't ask for the publicity that eventing has asked for, therefore can exist in their own world without the fear of those that might not understand. In many ways, I think we (eventers) have made our bed and are now not liking the outcome. We asked for more coverage, we got it, and what did it get us? Sure, maybe better care for the horses, and we are all for that, no doubt. But some of the judgements and decisons are based on media/BB coverage rather then hard facts.

(Oh dear, sorry for the ramble!)

[Ajierene]

Lots of people think that the rider is supposed to "place" the horse at a jump. or "find" a spot. The fact is that about 95 percent of riders do more harm than help in that area. If you are in a timber race and mess around on the way to a fence at speed you pay a BIG price. The fact that most horses can run down and jump a 4' fence without a rider just fine, says that the problem is usualy the rider, who is scared to "cast his heart..."

Personal experience that this video emphasized. When I first started eventing my mare, I did have to pick and place. About 20 strides out I had to make sure she was up, balanced and paying attention - otherwise she would spook and refuse. She got so intent on galloping an open field she would forget there might be jumps in the field.

My last event, I remember distinctly about 20 strides out sitting up to balance her and her ignoring me the way she does in the dressage ring with that 'don't interfere, I know what I am doing better than you do' attitude. I set back into halfseat and let her take me to the jump and over it smoothly.

We had gotten to that point where she knows her job and if I just let her be, she will do her job and do it well. The only time this fails is when I am scared of a jump - then I have to ride a bit harder lest my jump fear leach into her and she puts on the breaks.

[Madeline]

http://www.imh.org/museum/history.php?chapter=105


Let' srememberJay Trump1 What a three day horse he would have made;I:lol: believe his owner did hunt him, or, , at least paraded him with the hounds :winkgrin:

Jay Trump was stunningly good.

Interesting to see that the website in question thinks that the Aintree Grand NAtional is a timber race. Kinda calls all the other "facts" into question.

Whoever stated that they land uphill at the GN was wrong. They took the last of those landings out in 1990 or so.

[J Swan]

In a past COTH mag article, there was a lot of chasing coverage, and there were at least 3 falls spoken about. That seemed high to me- and they showed pictures of the falls.


The dynamic is so different. We have falls out hunting too - a lot of them. I only evented at BN and N; so my perspective is limited. But I've hunted a number of years and there are dozens of things you're thinking about and having to anticipate and plan for that just never came into play on a XC course. Most of it involves just having other horses next to you - multiply what you have to think of with just one horse - by 10 or fifteen - with fences - at a high rate of speed. (Not saying it's ok if falls happen and people get hurt of course - just that having experienced it a little - its a real eye-opener):)

[vineyridge]

I found this website with a listing and description of the Aintree Grand National fences.
http://www.aintree-grand-national.net/grand-national-fences.php

Here's a graphic of the course:
http://www.aintree-grand-national.net/aintree-racecourse.php

You really couldn't tell very much about them from the BBC's camera work, but they are seriously scary to my way of thinking.

[silver2]

the horses that are doing the grand national are doing their jobs- not being set up, and galloping along
Jump jockeys do set the horses up to take off at a reasonable distance.

I've never raced but I've galloped and while loose horses are neat to watch there is nothing scarier in this world than galloping down to a fence with a loose horse in front of you! You have no idea what it's going to do at the last second and it may swerve directly into your path. I saw one cut across the entire field once in a hurdle race.

[PangurBan]

some stats on the race.
40 horses started.:)
15 completed.:yes:
13 horses fell:eek:
6 riders were unseated:o
6 horses were pulled up on course.:(

3 fell at Fence 2
3 riders fell at #3
2 fell at #4
1 fell at #6
3 fell at #11
1 pulled up at #17
3 pulled up at #19
1 fell at #20
2 riders fell at #25
2 rider fell at #27
2 pulled up at #29
2 pulled up at #30

It was run in 9 minutes 16.6 seconds, on good going.
(fastest ever, Mr.Frisk in 1990, 8 min47sec. firm going)
(slowest ever, Red Marauder, 11 min 0.1 second, heavy footing)

Winner Comply or Die was coming back after 2 years off with a leg injury, and described by the jockey as a 'horse that would stay all week.'

The only British bred horse in the race was Cloudy Lane, finished 6th.

No horses were euthanized.

[JER]

No horses were euthanized.

Except for McKelvey, the 2007 runner-up, who unseated his rider and ran into a barrier.

[Madeline]

I found this website with a listing and description of the Aintree Grand National fences.
http://www.aintree-grand-national.net/grand-national-fences.php

Here's a graphic of the course:
http://www.aintree-grand-national.net/aintree-racecourse.php

You really couldn't tell very much about them from the BBC's camera work, but they are seriously scary to my way of thinking.

IMO, one of the things that makes the Grand National so difficult is that they run a little over 800 meters/minute (30 mph) for about 9 minutes with 30 big fences and 39 other horses doing the same thing. To put that in context, the old **** steeplechase was run over 8-10 not nearly so big fences at 690 mpm for 4-4.5 minutes. And you didn't have "helpers."

The Maryland Hunt Cup is 4 + miles. 8.5 minutes or about 28 MPH or 750 mpm over huge solid timber fences. Again, with "helpers."

Somehow, this puts the whole idea of "fast" in a little different perspective.

[snickerdoodle]

Apparently, most steeplechase schooling sessions are done "in groups" over the fences. (I will note, however, that in the movie "Champions", Aldaniti is shown schooling steeplechase brushes solo).

In my experience with steeplechase horses this is not the case, hurdle or timber. They do school by themselves, especially the older more experienced horses. They get very compettive with other horses.
Young horses are schooled with others.

[beeblebrox]

"snickerdoodle

In my experience with steeplechase horses this is not the case, hurdle or timber. They do school by themselves, especially the older more experienced horses. They get very compettive with other horses.
Young horses are schooled with others."

Hmmm while visiting Ireland we watched and took pictures at Punchestown and the horses were worked together over steeplechase fences, it was a bit wild though at times as there always seemed to be a loose horse someplace. We also saw many of the flat racing horses also worked in groups an being ridden down the road which was so romantic all in their colors and then galloping in these big field with hills, so they work hills as well like the eventer for fitness. NOW I am not saying they do not work alone but the entire day I never saw one horse go OUT alone.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

From a Sports Illustrated article.
The steeplethon is the proud creation of Nick Arundel, the 75-year-old sugar granddaddy of Great Meadow, who stepped forward in 1982 when the former site of the Gold Cup,

The Virginia Gold Cup is where it first showed up, but it's now on the card at lots of Hunt Races. In a lot of places, it's limited to horses that have fairly hunted in the past year.

It's hardly a new creation, the French (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XdO_E7ZU7eg&feature=related) and Irish have been doing it for eons.

One of my favourite racehorses of all time, Spot Thedifference (http://youtube.com/watch?v=WmoRbrxMDZQ&feature=related), specialised in these races.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

The Germans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIrzVke4eU) have a version that involves a serious water obstacle.

[EasterEgg]

Let's not forget the Pardubicka in the Czech Republic - now there's a race!

http://www.pardubice-racecourse.cz/fences.html?lang=en

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ObCD9UvfI

[Dr. Doolittle]

The Germans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIrzVke4eU) have a version that involves a serious water obstacle.

:eek:

Boy, you aren't kidding! :eek:

That "water obstacle" is a pond they have to SWIM through!

Wow!

[tenacity]

Here is the article Jimmy Wofford wrote for Practical Horseman:
http://equisearch.com/horses%5Friding%5Ftraining/english/eventing/wofford%5Feventing%5Flives%5F051408/

He talks about what eventers can learn from steeplechase. This article is the reason that video is on his website, and he tells you what to watch for. Very interesting.:yes:

[Sandy M]

In my experience with steeplechase horses this is not the case, hurdle or timber. They do school by themselves, especially the older more experienced horses. They get very compettive with other horses.
Young horses are schooled with others.

Perhaps methods have changed? This was from the Jay Trump book and that was circa 1964/65.

[JER]

Another interesting commentary on training jump racers:

Lucinda Green, Telegraph, 09/30/2001 "French horses are trained to look after themselves" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2001/09/30/solucy01.xml)

[Pixie Dust]

some stats on the race.
40 horses started.:)
15 completed.:yes:
13 horses fell:eek:
6 riders were unseated:o
6 horses were pulled up on course.:(

3 fell at Fence 2
3 riders fell at #3
2 fell at #4
1 fell at #6
3 fell at #11
1 pulled up at #17
3 pulled up at #19
1 fell at #20
2 riders fell at #25
2 rider fell at #27
2 pulled up at #29
2 pulled up at #30



Okay, this is where I'm confused. What am I supposed to learn from the steeplechase way? Doesn't sound exactly successful. Guess I should read the article before commenting though.

OK, I read it. I guess the real test would be to let a pack of well trained balanced steeplechase horses do the XC at Rolex, of course one at a time, and see how well they do. I'm really curious.

[vineyridge]

I read the cited Lucinda Green article on the training of French Chasers and feel compelled to point out that many Brits don't think French horses trained that way are able to run into their teens. They just don't hold up much past seven or eight.