Dangerous Riding Question

[nowoncourse]

So I've been either riding, coaching, or volunteering at Waredaca, Rubicon, and Seneca for the past three weekends (both days, all weekends) and I have a question about the "dangerous riding" issue.

At Waredaca, I watched two kids go way to fast at Prelim. One even turned the up bank-one stride-raised log into a bounce. I saw the TD driving the to the finish so I'm assuming she talked with the rider but nothing was done to his score. And he finished in the top three.

I saw the same two kids go Prelim again at Seneca this weekend and again, WAY too fast. So fast that a local trainer said to his group of students that were walking the course "if you ever go that fast I'm not letting you compete." Again, I watched the TD drive to the finish to talk with at least one of them. Again, nothing was done score wise and one of them finished in the top three again.

So, what, if anything have either of these kids learned? And as a spectator should I have said something? If so, who to?

I'm not posting here to get either of them in trouble or anything, but I walked away from the show this weekend concerned that they are bound to get hurt at some point and also frustrated that obviously just talking to them didn't do any good.

Is there anyway to track when someone gets a warning so that TDs at up coming shows can watch out for those riders? Just a thought. Would love to know what others think.

[riderboy]

I'm not sure what you can do to their scores. You know, the term " dangerous riding" is something I think that we all know when we see it but it's hard to actually define to have a consistent standard. I'm sure opinions vary as to what one rider may see as a bold,forward ride and another as dangerous. I've seen and read accounts of Ian Stark on Murphy Himself that some could construe as dangerous.

[LisaB]

See, I would have spoken with the td. Make it more of, 'I saw # and thought they were dangerous and here's why'. The td would explain and educate or take note. Then here's where the watch list would take effect. Td #1 gave a warning and then td #2 didn't know that td #1 gave the warning and warned again. If td #2 had known the kids did it again, proper actions would have taken place.
It's like asking daddy to take car. He says no. Go ask mommy, mommy doesn't know daddy said no and says yes.

[Janet]

That is where the proposed "watch list" comes in. TD#2 would then know whioch riders had been "spoken to" by TD#1.

But, unless you spoke to the TD, you do not KNOW that TD#1 spoke to them- it COULD have been coincidence that he was headed back to start/finish.

[thumbsontop]

Yes, as a spectator you should say something. Remember that most times jump judges aren't educated about the rules enough to know what should be reported and what shouldn't. It's then up to the TD to say something or not. Plus if the kid is killed the following weekend you won't feel guilty for not speaking up.

I'm not sure how it works with "speeding", but sometimes TDs simply give a verbal warning to riders, othertimes it's a written, and filed, warning. At the last HT I scored at the TD and I had a conversation about dangerous riders and he told me that they know which ones to watch just from being at so many. It's not an official watch list, but they are well aware of the riders that are causing problems. The rider I saw get a written warning had been verbally warned 3 states over by the same TD earlier in the year for a similar infraction.

[SR Rider]

At the last horse show I fenced judged, I had one rider totally out of control (training I think but maybe prelim) anyway, I radioed that the next fence judge be on the look out for
him for dangerous riding. He blew past the finish unable to stop his horse...the TD was
at the finish and drove after him. He was penalized 25 points for dangerous riding.

[asterix]

So what is the status of the watch list? Is this a pending rule change?

I guess, yes, you could have gone to the second TD and said that you had seen this rider bounce the one stride (yikes, I've ridden that complex, BOUNCE???) bank combo and generally have an out of control ride at Waredaca...
I know that the TDs must take with a grain of salt what anyone who they themselves do not know tells them (jump judges for example), but in your case you have ICP credentials :) so are not just a random spectator... The watch list would have been a much better way to do this, since you didn't know what, if anything, the first TD said to the rider, but...

I did hear the stadium judge at Rubicon assess 25 penalties for dangerous riding in stadium. I didn't see the round (was in barn, resting during a break from heat), but as warmup steward I had almost called the TD over because it was verging on dangerous. She asked xc warmup and judges to watch the rider -- not sure what happened.

[flutie1]

If it were as bad as you describe, I'm curious why 25 DR penalties weren't given.

[flyingchange]

yikes! s/he bounced that bank (up, one stride, brush log down)? at Waredaca? Holy $hit!!! That kinda pisses me off, in all honesty. That's exactly what needs to be addressed in this sport. Makes me mad/angry for the horse - there's no horsemanship in riding like that. Kid needs a smackdown.

[gjump]

I approached a TD this past weekend at an event letting him know that I saw a rider coming off of cross country not wearing an approved helmet. I knew it wasn't approved cause I'm a graduate A PC'er and I check the kids helmets all the time. He told me there was nothing he could do to enforce the rule and he wouldn't even talk to the rider. I figured the rider might not have know the rules. He stated that he knew the rider as well. He said that there was "no outlet for him to enforce the rule". So he let the rider go on....

I wrote a TD report to the USEF. I was really pissed.... :mad:

I had students who witnessed his response and were mortified that he wouldn't do anything about it.... not even for "educational purposes".

I talked to the USEA and they aren't happy about the series of events that occured....

This is not a good act of managment for our sport considering the recent events.

[nowoncourse]

Ok so I was really vague in my first post because I know both TDs personally and really respect them and the host facilities. Plus, that was another reason why I wasn't sure if I should say anything cause I didn't want someone to be like "well she's friends with the TD so she got them in trouble" or something like that.

Yes, in my opinion, as an event rider/trainer/ and ICP cert. instructor they were going way to fast and riding dangerously. I was a bit confused as to why they weren't assessed the 25 penalties which is why I put this post out there. And yes, I'll speak up if I witness it again!

Anyway, Janet, I do know for a fact that the TD did talk to at least one of the kids at Waredaca (I was close enough to hear that conversation). And at Seneca, they announced over the loud speaker that "rider # wait at the finish for the TD" so I guess the TD could have just been saying hi but I rather doubt it.

So, what is the status of the "watch list"? Is this something that is going into effect through the USEA or just something that TDs are doing on their own?

[LisaB]

Nowoncourse,
since when do we not know org/sec/td/gj/judge at an event? :D
We have a lot of numbers in area 2 but we are still small world. It doesn't matter. What matters is that rider was dangerous and it should be pointed out. TD's are very frustrated when they can't be everywhere at once. Knowledgeable help is always appreciated.
Think of the td as the police. When we see a drunk driver on the road, don't we call it in? At least I do.

[flutie1]

"... He told me there was nothing he could do to enforce the rule and he wouldn't even talk to the rider."

That's crap. It was his obligation to at least talk to the rider.
What kind of officials are we making? (And I can say that - I am one)

flutie

[retreadeventer]

Yes Lisa, but isn't this a VERY volatile area in terms of subjective judgment, and privacy? For instance, making an announcement over the loudspeaker for a rider to come back to the finish ... overhearing conversations between the TD and a rider ... there needs to be a respect for the sport, for privacy, for proper protocol, and for standards to be written and addressed.

I disagree vehemently that dangerous riding cannot be defined. It most certainly can, and we are acting like we can't use the English language very well when we say we can't. Everyone of us can list an example of dangerous riding we've witnessed. I think we can categorize these examples into a few most common areas, like extreme speed; control of performance; and abuse/cruelty. (The last is defined in the rulebook anyhow.)
Control of performance would be the bounce bank deal or perhaps a stadium round that scares everyone with 16 rails down or something. Something pretty bad but not necessarily too fast.

I think whenever possible there should be some evidence, as well as witnesses, addressed.

I think the TD should have the option of bringing the point of discussion directly to the rider, or to the ground jury -- but eventually I believe that the Ground Jury needs to be involved. Any GJ will certainly give great weight to what the TD has either witnessed or found to be true, but the GJ should have the decision power. In other words, the scenario might be that the fence judge reported a YR going really fast. They radio it to control, and the TD hears the report. She goes to the portion of the course where the YR in question is currently progressing. While she does not witness the original area of concern, she or he may observe the rider later on course also going pretty fast. At the end of the course, she can approach the rider, give them a yellow card, which requires them to come to headquarters or whatever at say 3pm for a meeting with the TD, any witnesses, her trainer and or parents, and the GJ. They have a quick hearing with perhaps someone taking notes or a tape recorder keeping track of what is said. The GJ makes the decision to red card or yellow card or rescind. Red would mean suspend Yellow would mean watch list and rescind would mean everyone was wrong and the kid was just fine. If you got a yellow card after a course, and didn't show up for your hearing, and blew it off then you would be suspended and your horse and your trainer or whoever signed your entry blank so you would really want to not do that. And hearings need to be friendly and educational not confrontational.
A list of all of these types of hearings have to kept and circulated among all TD's and GJ members after every event so that all officials would be aware of who was or was not on the watch list and so secretaries would know who is on the suspension list. In addition the REASON for the violation should be carefully worded and made public OR maybe not, depending upon what was mutually agreed upon.
If there was vehement denial then a formal hearing USEF type would then be scheduled to be held along with the protest procedure which would kick in.
Anyhow, that's my ideal scenario -- protecting the rights of people on all sides and being respectful of the rules yet not being overly judgmental or subjective.
I guess the bottom line is are we protecting the horse by this procedure?

[LisaB]

Oh true retread! We don't want a witch hunt. And yet, the td's need to know these things.
How about this nowoncourse, since you're friends with both td's and this is really bugging you, shoot them an email. Both of them at the same time explaining what you saw. They are in the works for the watchlist and this is a perfect example of why it's needed. Also, the td's will be at other shows and I'm sure those kids are going to be at other shows. A sort of unofficial watchlist.
And yes, a talking to needs to be in private in some cases. In others, like I witnessed a kid hitting her horse at a water jump. TD stopped her and gave her a finger wagging. Kid was clearly distraught and probably learned her lesson there. But it was in front of a bunch of people and td caught kid red handed. It needed to happen at that instant.
TD's have it tough, I'll tell ya!

[riderboy]

Yes Lisa, but isn't this a VERY volatile area in terms of subjective judgment, and privacy? ... ,
I disagree vehemently that dangerous riding cannot be defined. It most certainly can, and we are acting like we can't use the English language very well when we say we can't. Everyone of us can list an example of dangerous riding we've witnessed. I think we can categorize these examples into a few most common areas, like extreme speed; control of performance; and abuse/cruelty. (The last is defined in the rulebook anyhow.)
Control of performance would be the bounce bank deal or perhaps a stadium round that scares everyone with 16 rails down or something. Something pretty bad but not necessarily too fast.


Anyhow, that's my ideal scenario -- protecting the rights of people on all sides and being respectful of the rules yet not being overly judgmental or subjective.
I guess the bottom line is are we protecting the horse by this procedure?
It seems to me that your first statement contradicts the rest of your statement. Yes, there are clear examples of dangerous riding but there are also a lot of gray areas. Do you want some volunteer who rode years ago reporting you for HER definition of dangerous riding. And if it's so clear how come none of the riders at Rolex were reported for dangerous riding.

[JER]

I approached a TD this past weekend at an event letting him know that I saw a rider coming off of cross country not wearing an approved helmet. I knew it wasn't approved cause I'm a graduate A PC'er and I check the kids helmets all the time. He told me there was nothing he could do to enforce the rule and he wouldn't even talk to the rider. I figured the rider might not have know the rules. He stated that he knew the rider as well. He said that there was "no outlet for him to enforce the rule". So he let the rider go on....

I wrote a TD report to the USEF. I was really pissed.... :mad:

I had students who witnessed his response and were mortified that he wouldn't do anything about it.... not even for "educational purposes".

I talked to the USEA and they aren't happy about the series of events that occured....

This is not a good act of managment for our sport considering the recent events.

Well done, gjump.

Some other TD-related issues came up at the safety summit -- TDs not filling out reports accurately/thoroughly, TDs not listening to or taking seriously rider concerns about XC courses.

These is a big issues, IMO. These are licensed officials. A license is supposed to mean something.

I know there are a lot of good, conscientious TDs out there. On the other hand, I've witnessed several incidents where a TD did not take the proper action because he/she knew the rider involved -- which is not a way to make our sport safer.

[riderboy]

Totally agree that well trained, educated TDs are a key. They were great at Spring Run Horse trials this past weekend.

[three_dayer]

well...ive been on a "watch list" because of my dressage, my horse didn't like dressage (we were really bad)and we looked like we were going to be dangerous x-c...a few of my freinds had to vouch for me to go x-c, and the judge told me that if I looked like i was out of control at all he would pull me...my horse was a x-c machine and there was no problem on course(very smooth) the judges always watched me close because of dressage, so not all dangerous riding occurs on the x-c...:)

[Bobthehorse]

yikes! s/he bounced that bank (up, one stride, brush log down)? at Waredaca? Holy $hit!!! That kinda pisses me off, in all honesty. That's exactly what needs to be addressed in this sport. Makes me mad/angry for the horse - there's no horsemanship in riding like that. Kid needs a smackdown.

Yeah really, are these kids riding without coaches? Because if I did something like that, I would get such a smackdown. But then again, I think the lack of experienced coaching thats becoming more prevalent in this sport is frightening.

[Gry2Yng]

well...ive been on a "watch list" because of my dressage, my horse didn't like dressage (we were really bad)and we looked like we were going to be dangerous x-c...a few of my freinds had to vouch for me to go x-c, and the judge told me that if I looked like i was out of control at all he would pull me...my horse was a x-c machine and there was no problem on course(very smooth) the judges always watched me close because of dressage, so not all dangerous riding occurs on the x-c...:)

I know another rider that this happens too pretty consistently. Sadly, she hardly ever gets a qualifying score at at CIC, but her xc is well ridden. Same horse can be quite difficult in stadium as well.

Sounds like you have found officials that use their discretion wisely.

I am completely shocked by the helmet thing. How can we have a rule that cannot be enforced? Is the approved helmet thing a "guideline". How does this happen. Flutie, please explain how the most an official can do is "talk to" the competitor.

[allpurpose]

Is there a trainer or adult involved with these "kids"? I ask simply because education begins at home, in the barn, at clinics, etc... Perhaps some adult guidance BEFORE the dangerous riding and TD discussions would help these kids understand how serious - and deadly - their riding can be.

[mjedge808]

Since when CAN'T a TD enforce a rule?!
and of all rules, a HELMET?!?!??!

This would seem to me a cut and dry thing! It's not approved, you don't ride. You ride without one, you're disqualified for violation of the rules.

"EV113 Dress
1. PROTECTIVE HEADGEAR.
a. At all levels of eventing competition, from beginner novice through advanced, at Federation Endorsed competitions and recognized competitions, riders must wear headgear as follows in 1b through 1f, except as may otherwise be mandated by local law (see also GR801):
b. Upon arrival, wearing a hard hat is compulsory for anyone riding a horse on the flat.
c. While jumping any obstacle all riders must wear properly fitting protective headgear which passes or surpasses ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials)/SEI (Safety Equipment Institute) standards for equestrian use and carries the SEI tag. Harness must be secured and properly fitted.
d. It is the responsibility of the rider, or the parent or guardian or trainer of the junior exhibitor to see to it that the headgear worn complies with appropriate safety standards for protective headgear intended for equestrian use, and is properly fitted and in good condition, and the Federation, Show Committee, and Licensed Officials are not responsible for checking headgear worn for such compliance.
...
f. Violation of this rule at any time, at the discretion of the Ground Jury, shall be penalized
and may result in elimination."

So the rule says that it is mandatory for all jumping phases. It also says that it is not the respnosibility of the GJ to check each helmet, but that at the discretion of the GJ a person can be ELIMINATED for not complying with the rule. which is what should have happened if this person was not compliant by wearing an approved helmet!

WHY would the TD not want to enforce the rule?! think about the liability this could set up. A person alerts the TD that a rider is not riding cross country in an approved helmet. The TD does not take action to ask the rider to comply or if necessary to eliminate the rider. The TD does nothing about it at all. That rider goes on the XC course, falls, hits her head, and is severely injured.

While there are releases that are signed on the back of the entry form, there could still be some potential liability for a TD that does nothing to correct a safety violation that he or she is blatently aware of.

ridiculous that nothing was even SAID to the rider!!


This is your brain :)
This is your brain on cross country without a decent helment ______

[Milocalwinnings]

At Rubicon two weeks ago, when it was 100 degrees out, riders for the most part were careful about the speed, I think mainly because of the heat. However when jump judging, I did see a few people going way too fast- and it was not taken lightly by the TD. Every time someone radio'd in to watch a riders speed, they watched him/her for another fence... but in the end I think EVERY rider that was called in for going too fast was pulled up and spoken to by the TD.
On Sunday when I was starting my stadium round, the rider before me was even called up to the judges box and given a stern "You sure as heck had better not go that fast on XC. That was WAY too fast and next time you'll be pulled up".

[flutie1]

"...It is the responsibility of the rider, or the parent or guardian or trainer of the junior exhibitor to see to it that the headgear worn complies with appropriate safety standards for protective headgear intended for equestrian use, and is properly fitted and in good condition, and the Federation, Show Committee, and Licensed Officials are not responsible for checking headgear worn for such compliance."

Chris - read the rule.
...

[ThirdCharm]

I think that caveat, flutie, is to protect the events from sue-happy relatives in case some rider gets injured whilst wearing a non-conforming helmet.... it's not their responsibility to make sure the helmet complies, BUT non-compliance can result in elimination.

Kind of like, it is a driver's responsibility to make sure they stay under the speed limit, but if they don't, a cop can write you a ticket. But you can't sue the cops for not MAKING you stay under the speed limit if you fly out of control and wreck.

(sorry, best analogy I could come up with on the spur of the moment).

Jennifer

[piaffeprincess98]

Yes Lisa, but isn't this a VERY volatile area in terms of subjective judgment, and privacy? For instance, making an announcement over the loudspeaker for a rider to come back to the finish ... overhearing conversations between the TD and a rider ... there needs to be a respect for the sport, for privacy, for proper protocol, and for standards to be written and addressed.
I did hear Brian O'Connor announce that a novice rider was stopped by the TD and would be assessed 25 penalties for dangerous riding this weekend. I didn't think it should be announced.

[rileyt]

I can appreciate that no one likes to get called out on the mat publicly... but I think there is a purpose to making these incidents "public".

When spectators and other competitors hear that a rider has been assessed 25 penalty points for dangerous riding, it accomplishes two important goals: deterrence and education

1) It acts as a deterrence to other riders who may be riding in a borderline dangerous manner. It serves as a warning to other competitors that the officials really are watching these things, and are not going to turn a blind eye.

2) It educates people (names spectators, press, and lurking PETA members) that as a sport, we DO NOT condone that kind of riding, and that we are actively taking steps to address it. I think thats an important PR related goal that cannot be ignored in the times we're in.

So... while I understand that there may be some good, honest, thoughtful, capable riders out there who occasionally run afoul of this rule, and don't need a public undressing, I'm willing to sacrifice that for the greater good I think it provides.

[eventmom]

Ok guys, I am just going to throw out my concern. If you give people the power (and responsibility) to call out "dangerous riding", there is a very good chance that you are going to attract power hungry people to the job. Now you have a situation where all kind of politics and opinions get thrown into the mix:eek::eek:
So, as an example.... Sally's mom does not like my kid. She gets the glorious job of determining, and calling out bad riding. What a lovely opportuntity to embarrass my child. :eek:
You say it won't happen. But it will. People are attracted to certain types of jobs for reasons. Yes, you will have some people who do it for noble causes, but they will be run over:eek::eek:
Don't mean to be too negative. But it is just the course of human nature.
Just go look at who is attracted to politics:eek:

[LisaB]

Totally get where you're coming from eventmom.
Hubby is a lt with the sheriff's office. He has to hire/fire patrol, animal control, and court staff. Police work attracts the same type of people. There are a ton of laws that can be abused. What they do is that they have a video camera in every car. Hubby reviews videos but keeps his eye out especially on the questionable officers. If they get a complaint from a person, you better believe they investigate it. More often than not, the complaining person (if of sound mind) is right on and person is reprimanded. And generally, not long after, fired because they are stupid.
I would *think* that if we got some power hungry cretin, complaints would be filed, post haste and actions would be made. Would it be more work for the usea? Yup. I *think* this happened with a certain dr judge. Saw the judge once, was a total a-hole, we complained, never saw judge again.

[thumbsontop]

I did hear Brian O'Connor announce that a novice rider was stopped by the TD and would be assessed 25 penalties for dangerous riding this weekend. I didn't think it should be announced.

My first thought was to agree, but then I reconsidered. If a rider is riding dangerously enough to be penalized he/she has no rights to privacy, and it does double duty by alerting other riders to the consequences - and what actions actually get DR points.

In addition, every other "penalty" in a HT is announced - those multiple buzzes if you go off course, announcers letting the world know you've now had your second refusal at the ditch, scores are placed for the world to see. Why should this be private?

[thumbsontop]

Ok guys, I am just going to throw out my concern. If you give people the power (and responsibility) to call out "dangerous riding", there is a very good chance that you are going to attract power hungry people to the job. Now you have a situation where all kind of politics and opinions get thrown into the mix:eek::eek:
So, as an example.... Sally's mom does not like my kid. She gets the glorious job of determining, and calling out bad riding. What a lovely opportuntity to embarrass my child. :eek:
You say it won't happen. But it will. People are attracted to certain types of jobs for reasons. Yes, you will have some people who do it for noble causes, but they will be run over:eek::eek:
Don't mean to be too negative. But it is just the course of human nature.
Just go look at who is attracted to politics:eek:

The power is already there if people wanted it. I don't think this would ever happen - and it almost sounds ridiculous. One thing I have never seen in HT's is conspiracies against someone's kid. I've been there - jump judged, scored, bit checks, etc. I've never once seen any sign of anyone with anything but sincere concerns and commitment.

[Pixie Dust]

I don't understand why it wouldn't be announced. We all know when someone is called on a foul in any other sport. 5 fouls in basketball and you're out. Why would you want to hush hush?


Also, reporting dangerour riding doesn't give you any special power. You report what you saw to the TD, and then she decides what to do.

[eventmom]

Well, I can't proove that it will happen, but historically speaking, it virtually always does:(
Whenever you create an institution around people's opinions, wierdo's flock.
Sorry guys, but people in this country are free to be stupid. If you try to legislate it away, you will only put more limitations on the ones who need it the least. More rules will not solve the problem, It will only serve to change the whole flavor of the sport.
Be careful what you ask for. You might get it:eek:

[asterix]

but, eventmom, I don't believe that in this regard we have instituted ANY new rules or procedures. There has been a 25 pt DR penalty on the books for a long time, and it has been true for as long as I've been eventing that you could come to the TD with a concern about a rider. At Waredaca, where I volunteer, we have always had riders that get radioed in by jump judges or by the Stadium judge (alerting XC to be on the lookout for a problem) as well.

I think what has changed is the willingness of the officials to use these penalties and be more proactive about watching for dangerous riding, and this is a good thing.

If we as a community think we need to step forward, as the OP was pondering, it will be the TD/GJ job to sort out the wheat from the chaff. I still think we owe it to our sport to say something when we see someone is an accident waiting to happen.

We stopped waiting for those accidents at Rolex, if not before. They came to us.

These are small communities, and if there is someone with a vendetta against another rider, making inappropriate suggestions about their rounds to a TD...well, I think this will "out" fairly quickly, and most TDs I know wouldn't hand a penalty to a rider who neither they nor another professional (like the Stadium judge) has actually seen ride dangerously.

[lisagore]

Well, I can't proove that it will happen, but historically speaking, it virtually always does:(
Whenever you create an institution around people's opinions, wierdo's flock.
Sorry guys, but people in this country are free to be stupid. If you try to legislate it away, you will only put more limitations on the ones who need it the least. More rules will not solve the problem, It will only serve to change the whole flavor of the sport.
Be careful what you ask for. You might get it:eek:


Hey eventmom, with all due respect, aren't the rules already there? The TD is supposedly chosen to be the TD because he/she is knowledgable about the sport and has proven that he/she can officiate in a responsible, proffessional manner. TDs who do not behave in that way will eventually not be asked to officiate any more. In any sport where there is potential of mortal danger to the animal or the rider as a result of stupidity we have to respond to stupidity ie bad riding or the rest of the world will. Then we will get limitations we do not want. We don't as a society allow people to be stupid behind the wheel of a car without consequences....I don't think we can afford not to scrutinize ourselves pretty hard if it looks like we are allowing riders, especially young riders to behave in an unsafe way

[Dr. Doolittle]

Personally, I'm not worried about volunteers (or officials) having (or
using) innapropriate "power" (and usually they are *way* too busy to think
about personal vendettas, thank goodness! ;)), but I do think that our
sport has been "self-policing" for a long time, and maybe we need to put
some more emphasis on protocols which will *encourage* and promote safe and
thoughtful riding and training. Helmut Boehm is the TD for most of the HTs in
our area, and I have never seen him make a judgement that wasn't thoughtful
or reasonable--though he did get a little ticked at a Prelim YR (at Rubicon)
who blew right by him as he was trying to flag her down--and with good
reason! :eek: Don't run over the TD if you want to remain unnoticed! (And not receive a reprimand...:p)

Officials are there for a purpose, and THEY are the ones who will
interpret the rules, not the volunteers (who may or may not have the
knowledge to do so :)) An example, at Rubicon, one of my young students would weigh in
on the walkie about horses who "seemed to be breathing heavily" while on
course; naturally many of them were, because it was hot and humid. But the
officials who were monitoring the horses for stress would take that
(observation) with a grain of salt, under the circumstances, and aren't
going to run out and stop people on course based on a young JJ's word.

I have seen some scary riding over the years, but fortunately, there seem to
be fewer incedences of it lately (from what I have observed); an excellent sign,
and perhaps a result of riders/trainers becoming more aware of what
constitutes safe and appropriate riding? If so, it's self-policing in a GOOD
way!

I believe this is progress :yes:

[Pixie Dust]

The TD makes the decision, not random people wandering the course. If it was going to be executed as designed, they would not hand out penalties lightly, but would need some specific information, with collaberation somewhere.

[nowoncourse]

I did look into the background of the two riders I mentioned (just talked to some friend that knows them so really I can't say for a fact this is true so I apologize if it isn't). It turns out that neither of them take regular lessons with any specific event trainger. They are both however in pony club so they do get lessons through that. So I guess it comes down to the quality of instruction they are getting. I'm not saying that Pony Club lessons aren't good, I teach Pony Club lessons and have found that some of the instructors are awesome and others not. I don't know who their instructors are so I can't say what type of lessons they are getting.

I am working on an e-mail to the TDs now but am choosing my words carefully. Sounds silly I know but there are other things involved that I can't explain on this thread.

Anyway, thanks for all the input though! Sounds like this issue needs a lot of thinking about. I hope everyone takes a moment to contact your Area Reps or the USEA directly to address your concerns as well and forward on some of the suggestions made here!

[eventmom]

Hey guys, I have no problem with implementing rules that are already in place. On a different thread, I already advocated an "atmosphere" in the eventing community that shuns bad or dangerous riding. I believe this is the solution. When moving up becomes presitgous at the expense of good riding, something is very wrong:eek:
I am just really not a fan of more rules and committies, and guidelines, and........
Stupid people always work around such things.
What really gets to these people is loosing the respect of the eventing community at large. IMHO:)

[steves]

Since I was at both Waredaca and Senenca as the scorer, let me add a few comments. I also wanted to respond to the point about DR at Rolex

1) DR at Rolex: Since the concept of DR is not currently recognized by FEI, but rather is a USEF rule, the officals could not assess 25 points for DR. I would need to reread the FEI rules about pulling a DR off the course and eliminating them, but I would guess there must be something in the FEI rules to address this issue. I think in the case of Rolex, these individuals were already eliminated so the issue is moot. I will point out that one rider at VHT CCI* was eliminated by the GJ for DR and in fact the score sheet does not show a final score E but rather DR..

2) Seneca made a concerted effort to address the DR and safety issues. They made sure that either the PoGJ or the TD was on the XC course at all times to observe riders. They did flag one rider for 25 DR. There were a couple of other cases of possible DR that they watched closely but in the end never gave a DR. In one case they asked me to look at the JJ comments, but the JJ sheets were clean for those rides. I would point out that there were several cases of JJ's writing down on their sheets "too fast".

3) At Waredaca the PoGJ asked me to check on speeds for several riders but in all cases the speeds were fine ( in fact one was over optimum).

I would stongly argue against JJ's or any other non-USEA/USEF offical getting into the act of determining DR. It is fine for them to note what they consider DR and alert the PoGJ or other official. I would even go as far as HTs hiring an extra offical ( if the PoGJ or TD can not be on XC at all times) to do nothing but watch XC for these sorts of problems. I completely agree with others that the remedy probably lies in the rules, systems ( including our officals), and procedures that we already have, but improving implementation. The answer does not lie in some of the recent knee jerk rule changes that I think will do little to address the safety issue.

[hopashore1]

So perhaps a key player in this is jump judges and area stewards. Not to call out and penalize dangerous riding, but to observe--and for the TD and scorers to look out for comments the jump judge makes.

If every single jump judges indicates that a particuar ride was too fast or dangerous, and perhaps writes a short description WHY (i.e. rider unable to balance horse, left out strides, etc.), then maybe a more complete picture could be had.

My first horse, the first 3 fences of every course were HORRID. I PRAYED the photographer was never there--we weren't out of control, but I had a very looky spooky boy who, after the first 3 or so, finally settled into a rhythm and started jumping out of stride. And everyone has "whoops" fences, and shouldn't be penalized for that. But if EVERY SINGLE FENCE is scary to watch, something, somewhere is wrong.

Perhaps some sort of "yellow card" could be introduced...the TD issues it after consulting with the rider, jump judges, area stewards, and the reporting individual, if not in the above. Some sort of warning can be tagged onto the rider's USEA number in a form filled out by the TD. Future events when entering/checking USEA numbers can see which riders have been carded in the last x number of events and keep them on a "watch list." Coming in with excessive speed fault time--say running at at a speed greater than the level above which you are competing. (i.e. running training at a prelim speed) could earn dangerous riding points. Or dangerous riding for incurring speed faults if the heat index is above X (yes, the event would need to be responsible for informing the competitors of the actual heat index.) Unable to stop for a hold on course, or at the finish. Things like that, yea, we can define.

It would be very, very hard to come up with a definition that could fit every single scenario of "dangerous riding" you could come up with. Perhaps with the new 1 fall you're out rule, we'll see some incredibly dangerous attempts to stay on. But it's a START. And rather than try and start perfectly, we need to start somewhere and see what happens. If it is ineffective, scrap it, change it, do whatever, but do SOMETHING rather than keep talking in circles.

I really, really hope we can stay out of the hunter mentality when it comes to subjective scoring. One poor call from a TD does not mean the rule is ineffective, it means the call was. And I don't blame a TD for erring on the side of the rider. They are the ones who are supposed to know their horse, who may truly have a REASON--not an excuse, but a reason--for the reason they rode like they did. (What if the rider is getting ready to move up to Training and decides to run Novice at Training speed? Should they be faulted, if they were safe, set up their horses well for the fences, etc.? I think this is a gray area. And riders who have this or other schooling intentions should notify the TD that, if someone says x y or z, I'm really doing a b c.)

When we see bad calls or poor judgments eventers should NOT be afraid to confront the TD and ask (I don't mean be confrontational--but if you don't understand, ask them their reasoning!) or go above them to the USEA with valid, documented proof of what occurred.

Yes, it's more work. Yes, our volunteers are overworked. But if not them, who? Paying someone to be at every event means increases in entry fees. Maybe riders need to be out there more volunteering, and SEEING dangerous riding, for it to sink in that what they are doing may appear that way, also.

ETA: I'm just sort of tossing out ideas. I don't know how well they would work in reality, nor do i necessarily actually agree with all of them. But it's an important issue so I'm thinking out loud?

[retreadeventer]

Since I was at both Waredaca and Senenca as the scorer, let me add a few comments........I would stongly argue against JJ's or any other non-USEA/USEF offical getting into the act of determining DR. It is fine for them to note what they consider DR and alert the PoGJ or other official. I would even go as far as HTs hiring an extra offical ( if the PoGJ or TD can not be on XC at all times) to do nothing but watch XC for these sorts of problems. I completely agree with others that the remedy probably lies in the rules, systems ( including our officals), and procedures that we already have, but improving implementation. The answer does not lie in some of the recent knee jerk rule changes that I think will do little to address the safety issue.

AMEN, STEVE. My thoughts exactly.

[Gry2Yng]

"...It is the responsibility of the rider, or the parent or guardian or trainer of the junior exhibitor to see to it that the headgear worn complies with appropriate safety standards for protective headgear intended for equestrian use, and is properly fitted and in good condition, and the Federation, Show Committee, and Licensed Officials are not responsible for checking headgear worn for such compliance."

Chris - read the rule.
...

I understand that officials are not responsible for checking. My question was simply that once a helmet was identified as non-compliant why would the official be unable to enforce the requirement. Sorry if my question was offensive, but I don't understand how we can have a rule that can't be enforced and I mean that in a sincere "I don't understand" way, not in a sarcastic way.

[SR Rider]

as a regular jump judge...former rider...I will always radio a call about a situation of
dangerous riding; it is up for someone else to assess the penalties

but as for the hush-hush right to privacy for someone riding hell bent for leather....an ambulance siren leaving your cross country course is kinda loud too

[Dr. Doolittle]

as a regular jump judge...former rider...I will always radio a call about a situation of
dangerous riding; it is up for someone else to assess the penalties

but as for the hush-hush right to privacy for someone riding hell bent for leather....an ambulance siren leaving your cross country course is kinda loud too

Hmmmm...Good point....

[ksbadger]

3) At Waredaca the PoGJ asked me to check on speeds for several riders but in all cases the speeds were fine ( in fact one was over optimum).


From a very brief chat with John Staples before he made his presentation at the Safety Seminar, it's very possible to be both over the optimum time and going too fast. The GPS data shows that the maximum speed may be easily twice that of the nominal one. It might be a relatively short burst but that could be when a jump judge saw it (or, unfortunately, when a fall takes place).

[RiverBendPol]

How come DR costs a rider just 5 points more than a stop on course? Seems to me a DR should be right up there with a fall, penalty point-wise. He!!, why not make DR 75 points?

[wanderlust]

I am all for public flogging if you are riding like a moron. IMO, embarrassment is an incredibly powerful and effective tool for changing behavior. It is a shame if someone isn't getting proper coaching, but there are enough resources out there these days (i.e. the internet) for people to figure out what is and what is not an appropriate way to ride.

You know, eventers knock the h/j crowd for their "herd" mentality regarding style, fashion, acceptable horses, missing a distance, etc... and while it may be taken a bit far sometimes, I think adopting a little bit of that awareness as to what others do well, particularly in regards to how one conditions a horse, rides XC and stadium (ie appropriate pace, style, etc) would not be a bad thing and might cut down on some of the scary situations mentioned above (i.e. galloping around stadium unbalanced and burying the horse every time, but not having a rail).

[tuppysmom]

In the UK, every jump helmet is checked by the TD before the event begins. They are tagged with a yellow tape so it is easy for the warm up steward to check for compliance.
They check all the armbands also.

[piaffeprincess98]

My first thought was to agree, but then I reconsidered. If a rider is riding dangerously enough to be penalized he/she has no rights to privacy, and it does double duty by alerting other riders to the consequences - and what actions actually get DR points.

In addition, every other "penalty" in a HT is announced - those multiple buzzes if you go off course, announcers letting the world know you've now had your second refusal at the ditch, scores are placed for the world to see. Why should this be private?

True, I see your point. I guess I just haven't heard it announced at all this season (or ever for that matter) over the loudspeaker, I was just surprised.

[Speedy]

I would be really, really concerned if jump judges were given the responsibility / authority to judge DR. They may be fantastic sorts for volunteering and completely well-intentioned, but, let's face it, many of them do not know what they are looking at. I mean, we would be talking about people like MY HUSBAND making these calls? God forbid.

[gjump]

In the UK, every jump helmet is checked by the TD before the event begins. They are tagged with a yellow tape so it is easy for the warm up steward to check for compliance.
They check all the armbands also.

WE NEED TO DO THIS!!! THE PONY CLUB DOES IT!!! WHY CAN'T WE??????????

[tangledweb]

WE NEED TO DO THIS!!! THE PONY CLUB DOES IT!!! WHY CAN'T WE??????????

You really see it as a major problem?

How often do you think there is an accident where the person was wearing a helmet, but would have been less severely injured if the helmet was different.

If you have a spare volunteer at your HT, I would rather see them running a vet check at the end of low level HTs telling people off who take obese unfit horses out.

[Trixie]

Ok guys, I am just going to throw out my concern. If you give people the power (and responsibility) to call out "dangerous riding", there is a very good chance that you are going to attract power hungry people to the job. Now you have a situation where all kind of politics and opinions get thrown into the mix
So, as an example.... Sally's mom does not like my kid. She gets the glorious job of determining, and calling out bad riding. What a lovely opportuntity to embarrass my child.
You say it won't happen. But it will. People are attracted to certain types of jobs for reasons. Yes, you will have some people who do it for noble causes, but they will be run over
Don't mean to be too negative. But it is just the course of human nature.

It's a volunteer job. MOST people who volunteer for positions like this want to help further the sport, not conspire against some kid they don't like. I think it's really an enormous stretch to think that some rabid pony club mom is going to come after your child on dangerous riding IF they haven't done anything dangerous. Especially since the jump judge is generally not the only person watching.

Frankly, I've seen some really scary things lately, and it's appalling. Most of us are not interested in further black eyes on horse sports, and would like to see our young riders live to see adulthood. There is an obvious lack of personal responsibility. We NEED good volunteers that are willing to go to the TD if there is a problem.

[gjump]

You really see it as a major problem?

How often do you think there is an accident where the person was wearing a helmet, but would have been less severely injured if the helmet was different.

If you have a spare volunteer at your HT, I would rather see them running a vet check at the end of low level HTs telling people off who take obese unfit horses out.

Yes. I do see it as a major problem. There has been numerous amounts of accidents that injuries would have been less severe if the rider was wearing an approved helmet. That's why they invented the ASTM approved helmet!!!!

We've always done it at the pony club rallies. It takes less than a minute to hand a competitor their packet and look at their helmet.

I'm not sure why you think not wearing an approved helmet is not a major issue. Not to mention the fact that it is a RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm getting annoyed at the ignorance of this comment.

[RugBug]

I am all for public flogging if you are riding like a moron. IMO, embarrassment is an incredibly powerful and effective tool for changing behavior.

Absolutely. Don't want everyone to know you might have been riding dangerously? Don't ride dangerously. Really, the rider is in control of their fate.

One big issue that was hinted at here and I've seen come into play a few times: Up until a certain point, bad riding just might be rewarded in Eventing. Dangerously fast but still third? That's not good. Making the audience want to cover their eyes in stadium but still getting around clean and getting a ribbon, possibly blue (been there, seen that)? That's not good.

One of the great things about eventing is that you don't have to be perfect or have the perfect horse. BUT, you should still be safe...even at the lower levels. If you're so loose in the tack you almost fly off over every jump? If you ride so under the pace that your horse props and then deer leaps every jump? You shouldn't be able to win ribbons in those cases. Is it dangerous riding only if you could seriously injure yourself or your horse?

[RAyers]

To everyone who suggests that JJs or any person should point out if somebody is going too fast t a fence, I might suggest you take a look at our "speed" study. We have shown that a person on the ground, just by watching, can NOT accurately determine speed. At the Safety Summit, we showed video of a horse that was very fast but balanced as compared to a horse that was a bit less balanced. The balanced horse was 70mpm FASTER. Folks watching the video had a hard time seeing that.

Here again is how having a SUBJECTIVE input to dangerous riding can lead down the path to making the WRONG decisions. Looking at XC times is also NOT a good way to judge safe riding. That time is based on an average speed and is not reflective of the reality.

As ksbadger points out a rider can go VERY fast at one point and still come in over the time. I ran the CIC** at Greenwood where I was 20mpm too slow overall but at some points I was going 800mpm per the GPS! The TDs, PoGJ all were very complimentary of my ride and how good it was. That was because we went fast and balanced where we needed.

Reed

[tangledweb]

Yes. I do see it as a major problem. There has been numerous amounts of accidents that injuries would have been less severe if the rider was wearing an approved helmet.

Go on then, tell me about one. Which horse trails did this fall happen at? What type of helmet was the person wearing? What was their name?

[hopashore1]

To everyone who suggests that JJs or any person should point out if somebody is going too fast t a fence, I might suggest you take a look at our "speed" study. We have shown that a person on the ground, just by watching, can NOT accurately determine speed. At the Safety Summit, we showed video of a horse that was very fast but balanced as compared to a horse that was a bit less balanced. The balanced horse was 70mpm FASTER. Folks watching the video had a hard time seeing that.

Here again is how having a SUBJECTIVE input to dangerous riding can lead down the path to making the WRONG decisions. Looking at XC times is also NOT a good way to judge safe riding. That time is based on an average speed and is not reflective of the reality.

As ksbadger points out a rider can go VERY fast at one point and still come in over the time. I ran the CIC** at Greenwood where I was 20mpm too slow overall but at some points I was going 800mpm per the GPS! The TDs, PoGJ all were very complimentary of my ride and how good it was. That was because we went fast and balanced where we needed.

Reed

This is why my suggestion was NOT that jump judges could call or issue DR penalties, but that IF they see a horse that is questionable they a) radio it in AND b) clearly mark on their sheet that the horse appeared excessively fast/dangerous. If you end up with 2/3 of the jump judges saying the horse appeared too fast, unbalanced, left out strides, and the jump judges all said a prayer as the horse approached the fence, well maybe this is a rider the TD needs to have a chat with.

I do agree that nailing a rider for a single point of time is extreme. And how fast the rider is going during galloping sections does not negate the ease/confidence/ability with which the rider prepares a horse for a fence.

[Elghund2]

At Rubicon two JR riders were stopped by the TD in Prelim. They had been flagged by several jump judges in a row and that got the TD's attention. The TD stopped the riders after he observed them, stopped them and talked to them.

I think that that is how it should work.

For those eventers who think JJ are not qualified to make this call then I say get your ass out there and do some judging. If more eventers voluntered to JJ then you wouldn't have inexperienced judges there.

[JesslovesTomTom]

You really see it as a major problem?

How often do you think there is an accident where the person was wearing a helmet, but would have been less severely injured if the helmet was different.

If you have a spare volunteer at your HT, I would rather see them running a vet check at the end of low level HTs telling people off who take obese unfit horses out.


I completely agree with you gjump...there are obviously reasons that certain helmets are not approved anymore...eventing is not the same as it used to be. Different obstacles, trickier questions,...you have to adjust saftey measures according to the demand of the sport. The ASTM approved helmets were approved for a reason, they weren't just changed for the fun of it.

and you do not need a spare volunteer to check helmets and arm bands. it would take two seconds for the ring steward check your helmet and armband. they already check bits for dressage so why not check helmets and armbands for jumping?

and no one should be "Told off" by an extra volunteer taking an "obese" horse out. Many volunteers are not very horse/ eventing knowledgeable Thats why they have the jump judge briefing so it would not be appropriate to have a person without extensive knowledge on horse fitness and conditioning "telling people off". i have to agree with gjump that your comment tangledweb, was ignorant and verging on obnoxious:no::no::no:.

[tangledweb]

your comment tangledweb, was ignorant and verging on obnoxious:no::no::no:.

Wow, you signed up for a new account on the forum just to insult me. I feel very special.

[flea]

They did do random arm band checks at Pine HIll this spring. My daughter was checked as she was waiting to enter the ring for stadium. Didn't check the helmet though.

[Dr. Doolittle]

This is why my suggestion was NOT that jump judges could call or issue DR penalties, but that IF they see a horse that is questionable they a) radio it in AND b) clearly mark on their sheet that the horse appeared excessively fast/dangerous. If you end up with 2/3 of the jump judges saying the horse appeared too fast, unbalanced, left out strides, and the jump judges all said a prayer as the horse approached the fence, well maybe this is a rider the TD needs to have a chat with.

I do agree that nailing a rider for a single point of time is extreme. And how fast the rider is going during galloping sections does not negate the ease/confidence/ability with which the rider prepares a horse for a fence.


This is an excellent point :yes:

As for the "dissention in the ranks" (and the insults!), c'mon folks...I think we *all* have the same objective, here--so let's try to keep the discussion constructive, if we can!

[ksbadger]

Much as I love the additional competition when stadium is the final phase with riders in reverse order, having stadium before XC is probably the safer option. At least then if someone's not up to the required level there's an opportunity for a final check. Of course this wouldn't work at the upper FEI levels where the majority of problems are occurring - or would it?

[I know this doesn't address the speed part of the problem but it might help weed out those not totally in control which seems to be more than half of it.]

[Everythingbutwings]

For those eventers who think JJ are not qualified to make this call then I say get your ass out there and do some judging. If more eventers voluntered to JJ then you wouldn't have inexperienced judges there.

For those eventers who think JJ are not qualified - I agree completely. This is not a slap on the volunteers, it is fact. I've volunteered at the same events that Elghund has and many of the volunteers are not experienced at eventing. Before someone gets their undies in a bundle over the thought of being called out by a JJ who doesn't understand, get yourself out there and do it.

For that matter, many of my eventing aquaintances DO volunteer, they are not just showing up at when they happen to be competing. There just don't seem to be enough of those hard core people, those who understand that eventing is more than "MEMEME" rocketing around the course, among the thousands who now participate in the sport.

[piaffeprincess98]

Kind of off topic, but important in identifying a rider; This weekend I saw a dressage test where the woman did not have a number on. Judge was asking for number confirmation, so probably didn't look to see, by since I was photographing, I had to get a number shot. I've also seen it go unnoticed in stadium. I thought it was cause for elimination, but I guess not if the judge doesn't see it.

[thumbsontop]

To everyone who suggests that JJs or any person should point out if somebody is going too fast t a fence, I might suggest you take a look at our "speed" study. We have shown that a person on the ground, just by watching, can NOT accurately determine speed. At the Safety Summit, we showed video of a horse that was very fast but balanced as compared to a horse that was a bit less balanced. The balanced horse was 70mpm FASTER. Folks watching the video had a hard time seeing that.

Reed

I agree that an out of balance horse will appear faster, but what a JJ would see, experienced or not, is that the horse seems out of control. That's the important point.

I absolutely think JJs should radio concerns - leave it up to the TD to make the final decision. The TD doesn't have eyes everywhere and depends on these folks. I don't think the USEA would even consider letting JJs actually award points for DR. The TDs understand the level of knowledge of particular JJs - and credibility is given more to those with obvious experience, but especially additional witnesses.

As for volunteers as JJs, I absolutely agree that more experienced eventers on the XC course would be a benefit. I know plenty of Pony Club moms who would feel much more comfortable running the hospitality tent than JJing a prelim (or higher) jump. And I've been to plenty of events where judges are judging 2 fences, or there are 12 and 13 yr old kids at fences alone, because of last minute shortages.

What if every eventer volunteered to JJ at one event per year?

[retreadeventer]

Kind of off topic, but important in identifying a rider; This weekend I saw a dressage test where the woman did not have a number on. Judge was asking for number confirmation, so probably didn't look to see, by since I was photographing, I had to get a number shot. I've also seen it go unnoticed in stadium. I thought it was cause for elimination, but I guess not if the judge doesn't see it.

Yeah....at the risk of hijacking this thread....I scribed at Advanced stadium one time, and a competitor who is an ex Olympian had illegal tack, it was let go....
intermediate stadium and riders had jackets waived and a rider was in a tshirt w/out a collar - TWO horses - it was let go..... scribing Training level dressage, trainer was coaching the rider during the test from back of ring clearly speaking to rider altho there was a person standing next to the trainer and he was turning his head as if to speak to that person but we could hear it...nothing done about that....riders with multiple horses QUITE late to dressage and should have been eliminated....let go....

You know as a lower level competitor it dismays me that the familiarity that the "usual" TD's and judges have with the riders and trainers allows this trend to continue. Because they see the same faces week in and week out they obtain a rapor and give them a bye on stuff. The favoritism is often clearly seen, but I wonder if they even realize it themselves.

This is where the "Dangerous Riding" penalty may or may not be enforced at the upper levels where the trainers/officials are well known to one another. I think officials are far less withheld from penalizing lower level run of the mill competitors than they are from someone with five horses running in four divisions, that they see more of than their own family on a week to week basis.

As I recall this was a point that was brought up at the Safety summit, having officials assigned by the USEF instead of obtained by the organizers to prevent favoritism. I am sure all officials rolled over in their graves when they heard THAT. As a potential future official that is certainly a damp blanket to me, as unless you are well up in the organization and quite well connected you won't get a job.

[Moody Mare]

There was an abundance of that going on at the Seneca XC schooling yesterday. The saddest part, much of it was a direct result of dangerous instruction. How is it so many people lack the common sense that tells you not to put your life, or your horses life, in serious jeopardy like that?

Maybe I'm feeling very cynical this AM, but what I witnessed yesterday makes me really sad for the sport of eventing.

[bambam]

I jump judge and am knowledgeable enough I think to pinpoint a too fast or otherwise dangerous ride but I sure as heck do not think I should be making the call or that the TD should be making the call after the fact based on comments from the jump judge sheets or straight times (especially if the JJs were not told to write it down which they were not at Seneca so I am suprised they were looking at that on the score sheets- I called it in when I thought there was a problem). The TD or more likely some other official (POGJ?) since the TD has other responsibilities needs to be dedicated to the x-country course the whole time it is running- if a rider is riding dangerously and the TD is in stadium when it is called in, the rider is probably done before the TD gets there to watch and that is not good enough. Use the jump judges to flag rides to watch but only an official who actually saw the ride should determine DR and should do it based on what they saw- which is what seemed to happen at Seneca.
On another note- I was a little disturbed this weekend by how slowly they were pulling up eliminated riders who continued on. They were jumping a lot of fences after they were eliminated and before they were pulled up (missed a fence or jumped the wrong one) and it was not purely an issue of the time it took to confirm the elimination first.

[asterix]

Couple of points -- most HTs in Area II do run SJ first, and as a frequent warmup steward or gate person for that phase, I can tell you that I do check for armbands and helmets (although I couldn't tell you for sure that a helmet is approved -- but if it's not fastened, dangling straps, that I do see). Nearly every time I send someone back for an armband. My favorite was the guy who gave me lip about it in PRELIM XC warmup. Um, yeah, I know it's a bummer, but you do need that little thing on xc. What is this, your first horse trial?:eek:

I have to agree with MoodyMare (hmm, were you actually IN my group yesterday???) -- we saw a LOT of dangerous riding and truly dangerous coaching (riders being told to simply "go" at a fence that they were having trouble with, with NO instructions as to how to change their approach to, oh, I don't know, perhaps successfully jump the fence??....and riders being told jumps were "great" or "perfect" when the rest of us were literally hiding our eyes waiting for the rotational fall. I am not exaggerating).

Until you can go to a schooling day and NOT see this sort of behavior, I will not believe our sport is changing.

And don't get me started on the bad examples of the professionals riding yesterday, from armbands on your boot (again, people, it's an ARMBAND. EMTs do not want to search you for your info. this is not hard.), to deliberately galloping at speed through groups of less experienced riders.

I am pretty sick of this sort of stuff.

[Janet]

Kind of off topic, but important in identifying a rider; This weekend I saw a dressage test where the woman did not have a number on. Judge was asking for number confirmation, so probably didn't look to see, by since I was photographing, I had to get a number shot. I've also seen it go unnoticed in stadium. I thought it was cause for elimination, but I guess not if the judge doesn't see it.
Violation of the dress rules is subject to "elimination at the discretion of the GJ".

WRT failure to wear your number, "This number must be worn at all times when the horse is being ridden or exercised. Failure to display the number shall first incur a warning. Repeated offenses shall incur a fine of $50 (payable to the Organizing Committee) at the discretion of the Ground Jury."

[thumbsontop]

You know as a lower level competitor it dismays me that the familiarity that the "usual" TD's and judges have with the riders and trainers allows this trend to continue. Because they see the same faces week in and week out they obtain a rapor and give them a bye on stuff. The favoritism is often clearly seen, but I wonder if they even realize it themselves.


I actually don't see that occur at all. They give them a bye? Not in my experience.

[tuppysmom]

A tee shirt should meet the requirements when jackets are waived, provided it has sleeves,(short or long). Might be a bit tacky though.

[magnolia73]

but people in this country are free to be stupid.

Problem is that stupidity in eventing can hurt horses. So, no, we can't just let people be stupid since more often than not, the horse pays the price for stupidity.

If only to protect the horse, we need some form of judgement and penalty for dangerous riding. Whether it occurs on or before event day. It will not be perfect or fair at all times. But the alternative is to continue to have horses injured and killed due to what most of us agree is dangerous and stupid riding.

Yup- you are free to run a marathon in flip flops on a 100 degree day. You are welcome to jump off cliffs into lakes. Go ride your bike (or horse!)without a helmet. But when your decisions hurt others you need some guidelines to protect them from your stupidity.

[gjump]

Rules are there for a reason - be it a helmet, armband, tack, etc. I'm not sure why it's even an argument at all. We started using cc vests - obviously for a safety reason....

What reason is there to NOT check the armbands and helmets?

We need to enforce the rules we have to an absolute 't'....

[piaffeprincess98]

Violation of the dress rules is subject to "elimination at the discretion of the GJ".

WRT failure to wear your number, "This number must be worn at all times when the horse is being ridden or exercised. Failure to display the number shall first incur a warning. Repeated offenses shall incur a fine of $50 (payable to the Organizing Committee) at the discretion of the Ground Jury."

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I think wearing a number is really important if you have a fall , I wish they would enforce it more.

I also had the same experience as asterix and moodymare. Some truly scary coaching ("Just get to the other side!") and some rider's who didn't give a warning when they were jumping a fence. My trainer and I joked that we were being swarmed by big groups. We tried to stay a few fences ahead of them.

[Picasso]

And don't get me started on the bad examples of the professionals riding yesterday, from armbands on your boot (again, people, it's an ARMBAND. EMTs do not want to search you for your info. this is not hard.), to deliberately galloping at speed through groups of less experienced riders.

I am pretty sick of this sort of stuff.

Thank you, Asterix. My husband is an EMT-P and this makes him nuts. When he is picking you up off the ground, he wants to know where to look in a split second to find out what meds you may be allergic too. He really doesn't care who the heck you are at the moment, but certainly cares about the meds, in some instances every second counts and it isn't his job to see where you have fashionably placed your arm band. And if he has to cut off your boot, he isn't going to take the time to remove the armband to ensure all your information is saved, trust me. He actually got yelled out for cutting of a custom boot - he said it was that or your leg, lady. She ended up being lifeflighted out with rods put in.

He is a flight paramedic for the Army and assists on occasion at horse shows and trials for me (because he is sooo good to me, you have no idea), he carries a national liscence and is affiliated with a few fire depts to include Baltimore City to allow him to do this. Don't make it hard on those guys (and gals). When he isn't the paramedic on call, he carries his aid bag out when our groud is on board, we come with our own paramedic! =) knock on wood but for a few bumps and bruises we haven't had to use him - he has had to sew up horses, though!

[Life is an Event]

"This number must be worn at all times when the horse is being ridden or exercised. Failure to display the number shall first incur a warning. Repeated offenses shall incur a fine of $50 (payable to the Organizing Committee) at the discretion of the Ground Jury."

I watched Phillip Dutton warm up and ride a Dressage test at Waredaca without a number on his horse or himself. Seeing he was riding multiple horses it seems like he would be required to wear and double check that he has the correct number for the horse he was riding at that specific time. I never saw anyone approach and ask him about his number.

I don't know how many times my daughter has absentmindedly forgotten to put the number on her horse's bridle and had to trot on back to the trailer to get it.

[nowoncourse]

Just wanted to post an update. I did talk with one of the TDs plus a show organizer who wasn't a TD at those events but does have her TD license.

Basically they all agreed that as a spectator, competitor, etc I am allowed, and encouraged to approach the TD if I see something that is concerning. They also said they very much appreciate an extra set of eyes (so to speak) but they are of course the final say and if they didn't see anything and only got one comment from one person, then obviously they would side with the rider.

In general, the idea of a "watch list" is still just an idea and the USEA folks are still working on that. There is concern that a watch list might turn into a "witch hunt" so everyone is proceeding with caution and the wording on any rule change will be tough.

One of the TDs said she likes to know ahead of time if there is someone to keep an eye on but that everyone has bad days and she was not going to fault someone for "one bad fence".

So my advice to everyone out there... if you see something that really strikes you as dangerous, just speak up and let the TD decide the rest!

Thanks again everyone! This is a great discussion and I'm sure will be a topic of interest for a while.