How hard would you struggle with a foal... UPDATE, progress!!!

[JoZ]

I posted recently about my mare that is difficult to catch. Now she has a foal and I was wondering about losing the two of them to the pasture and not touching the foal till weaning. Since I posted, they have been out several times, in the indoor arena and in a small pasture with access to a round pen. Due to the placement of the fence in relation to the round pen, with one other person to help I can actually get the mare into the pen, and then catch her quite readily. Woo hoo, all that work wasn't for nothing! They will not go out to pasture full time however until the weather around here improves (so, yeah, after the 4th of July I fear).

The foal, unfortunately, is -- how do I say this -- wild as a March hare. He is not a nice boy at all. I've had aloof, I've had rambunctious -- this is different. My friend and I have been catching him and she has been holding him (arm around chest, arm around butt, or soft rope around chest and butt) so I can handle him. He can go from standing, to sitting down in a tantrum, to leaping and double-barrel kicking. So, um, ATHLETIC. Yeah, that's what I'll call it. He might be improving a bit but he's not liking humanity at all. We are pretty good at this -- he is getting rewarded when he is a good boy -- but it's not fun. I nearly got a concussion tonight when he reared up and smacked his head into the side of mine. Is it wrong to hope he has a headache too?

We are protecting his neck and not pulling on him. But I've never had a foal quite so... miserable. I haven't found a thing he likes: pets, scritches, nothing.

I would like to have his hind feet trimmed before he goes out to pasture. He was born down on his pasterns and his toes are long. I think it would help his tendons to have a shorter toe. He might still be small enough when the farrier comes out for us to hold him still for a quick nip and rasp to the hind toes. But that might be possible even if I don't work with him every day until that time. I just wanted him semi-civilized, then he's going to have a wonderful, easy summer. Should I just give up? Catch him up one more time when the farrier is here, get that over with, and put him out? Or will these fights, er, I mean, TRAINING SESSIONS eventually win him over?

ETA: foal was born 5/31 so he's a wee young thing. Heaven help me if he acts like this when he is big and strong. I am already bruised and beaten, LOL.

[Sugarbrook]

Wow. This is a problem. We check our foals about every 2 to 3 weeks. Pony foals grow tons of hoof and this must be corrected promply. Some are actually trimmed every 2 or 3 weeks if we see lots of hoof growing in the wrong direction. I just dont know how you will do that if you turn your mare and foal out for the summer.

Our mares and foals are born in the stall, and then live in (most of them, I have one that must return to the pasture after 3 days in the stall). and come in,to the stall, at night for weeks or longer if we need more hands on.

Personally, I would not let this mare/foal combo out of my hands until they are under control. JMHO>

[YankeeLawyer]

Personally, I would not let this mare/foal combo out of my hands until they are under control. JMHO>

I agree, but boy do I feel for you. Hopefully someone can give you some good tips. Another poster here had a colt that was very tough as a wee one but grew up to be a nice boy....Cartier, maybe? I am not sure.

[Chall]

Are they the only ones in the field? Is there a "tame" horse/ pony that you can safely (for them and for him/her) put out with them? They may need someone to correctly model behavior for them. If so, I'd feed and fuss over the tame horse and totally ignore the mare and foal. They may get "jealous" and want what your good citizen is getting. If the mare is the only one the foal sees and you don't like her behavior give him a role model!

[facinated]

I would leave them alone until you wean the foal, then just feed the baby once a day if he is fat or twice a day if he is skinny. his feet will break off just fine on their own. There is a much greater chance of hurting or ruining him while he is young, than there is of helping him. If you bring him in the barn when he is three, and keep him in a stall, he will be strong enough to work in a round pen to get him tired, without hurting him. within two months he will be doing all of the same things any three year old needs to do, and he will never have had a bad day.

[YankeeLawyer]

I would leave them alone until you wean the foal, then just feed the baby once a day if he is fat or twice a day if he is skinny. his feet will break off just fine on their own. There is a much greater chance of hurting or ruining him while he is young, than there is of helping him. If you bring him in the barn when he is three, and keep him in a stall, he will be strong enough to work in a round pen to get him tired, without hurting him. within two months he will be doing all of the same things any three year old needs to do, and he will never have had a bad day.

I am completely opposed to overhandling foals, but I really think I would prefer to work with this little guy now, before he is a much bigger weanling. Also, I really disagree with leaving his feet to self-regulate (break off on their own), particularly where, as here, the foal has some leg conformation issues that should be easy to address now.

More importantly, what if the mare or foal, God forbid, has a medical emergency but no one can catch them, or if caught, they are unmanageable by a vet? What then?

I own a horse that was barely handled until he was 2. He is a wonderful horse, one of my all time favorites -- NOW. When I got him, though, despite being very people-friendly and sweet-natured, he was a nightmare to handle. No farrier could get near him, vets had almost as much trouble, etc. It took a ton of work to get him to be a good citizen, and it would have been so much easier if someone had just introduced him properly to the everyday things in life when he was younger. And mine was friendly and sweet from the get-go! Had he been full of piss and vinegar like this little guy, by 2 years old he would have seriously injured someone. As it happens, he did have a medical emergency a couple of weeks ago that required a lot of cooperation on his part for treatment. He was a saint about it, and I am very proud of him. His attitude saved his life, in this case. Had the same thing occurred when we first got him, well, the outcome would not have been good.

[facinated]

Wrestling with baby horses causes injuries to soft parts, which often become chronic. If there is an emergency tranquilize the animal. It will not injure anyone if they just leave it alone until it is strong enough to go to work. Read "Training Hunters, Jumpers, and Hacks". It gives you the entire program starting with a 4 year old horse.

[YankeeLawyer]

Wrestling with baby horses causes injuries to soft parts, which often become chronic. If there is an emergency tranquilize the animal. It will not injure anyone if they just leave it alone until it is strong enough to go to work. Read "Training Hunters, Jumpers, and Hacks". It gives you the entire program starting with a 4 year old horse.

I never advocated wrestling with a baby (for starters, they weigh more than me at birth, so that would be a pretty dumb approach on my part). Ditto re the farrier -- you have to be especially careful with their legs, obviously.

I have no problem sedating horses and am pretty darn good at it. But just try sedating a rank youngster. It is not always that easy. And how exactly would you catch this uncatchable baby to sedate him? Unless you are advocating darting them, which I doubt, I am not really seeing how this would work. And if you just turn them out to pasture and can't get close enough to give them a good once over at least once a day, you may very well miss that medical emergency until it is too late.

And, while I am sure I could learn more about horses, just like anyone else, I have owned numerous horses for the better part of 30 years and had my first foals in 1986. So I would be really surprised if that book changed my views radically on how to handle horses to the extent it advocates a hands-off until they are 3 approach, to which I am vehemently opposed. And does that book recommend not attending regularly to the foal's feet? Somehow I doubt that.

[facinated]

My farm has lanes between the paddocks, which lead to the barn. You can feed tranquilizer to a horse, Then catch it or let it folow another horse to the barn, and get a needle in it. I just think that if the mare doesn't like people, you are not going to change her, so why give her a chance to teach the baby to associate people with panic. The point of the book is that in the days when horses were important as more than just toys, they did not mess with them until they were strong.

[JoZ]

A few other comments:

- The mare CAN be caught. She can also be trimmed, wormed, clipped and ridden. She has proven that she can be caught even with the foal. We (the humans in her life) are experts at this now. Their summer pasture connects to the small pasture that has the round pen in it. The mare will follow buddies under the WORST of circumstances. Lately she can be caught as long as the others are clearly being caught.

- You are right about handling the foal, though. If he needed emergency medical care, he might (if it were possible) follow his dam into a stall, but what then?

- I had a foal last year that couldn't be approached or handled when he was first out on pasture, but before weaning time curiosity overcame him, and he is a doll now. I'd like to think that would happen with this guy. But I didn't know it would happen to last year's foal so I didn't fret and second-guess like I'm doing now.

- My mares are rescues -- purebred, registered, wellbred rescues, but rescues all the same (PMU mares). It's surprising and sad to see that the trust they have developed in me, because I tamed and worked and loved on and trained them before they were bred, does not translate to their offspring, at least not immediately. My other mare has had three foals who turned into the best-behaved, most affectionate youngsters you'd ever want to see, but right after birth it's like the mares' instincts for self-preservation and baby preservation go into high gear. I wonder if they will ever be happy and settled enough that this won't happen? I am not breeding this year's mare again while I ponder this. I'm not having fun with Junior... :(

[Well_Worn_Bridle]

Well golly, Facinated, you have it all figured out, don't you? Maybe you should go to the OP's barn, built some paddocks as superior in setup as your own, and be on hand should she need someone to tranq. for her.

I'm not sure correctional farrier work counts as "messing with" the horse, nor do I think that the career of an equine athlete or any discipline is "just [a] toy". C'mon, this isn't a science, it's basic common sense and good horsekeeping.

To the OP: I'm of no help here. I have never raised a foal or had to deal with such a situation. Do you think your colt would behave better if he was away from mom, but she was still in view? Not sure how your facility is set up. There was a rotten welsh colt who kicked and bit everyone- just like mom!- until he was all alone in the aisleway being worked with. Just a thought.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would definitely handle the foal every day until he is a good citizen. I would never place a foal in a position to stress them further is they are injured or ill. Daily leading, 10 minutes a day, will bring him around within a week or two.

[YankeeLawyer]

My farm has lanes between the paddocks, which lead to the barn. You can feed tranquilizer to a horse, Then catch it or let it folow another horse to the barn, and get a needle in it.

Not to belabor the point, but I can think of many serious medical emergencies where feeding or moving the horse very far, if at all, would be contraindicated. And sedation just doesn't work that well in all circumstances with a horse, particularly if the horse is already hyped up to begin with (and try soaking a foot 20 minutes out of every hour with a sedated but otherwise uncooperative horse, or putting a therapeutic shoe on a tranqued horse, which can be downright dangerous for the farrier). But if you have the perfect emergency, then you have nothing to be concerned about.

[Equilibrium]

OP,
Sorry about the situation you're in because it's not fun. But I do tend to think you should try and get a handle on him before the goes out to the field. With the heat is he staying in part of the day? If so it could help to mess with mom a bit in the stall and see if he comes up to you. Even a pat or a rub and leaving him alone until the next session is something. Your baby is definitely to the extreme. But no matter how frustrating or no matter how small the achievement, keep trying. I too, do not like over handling foals, but they do have to do the basics and be good citizens.


Fasinate,
Leave out til their 4 bog wild and unhandled. That's a load of bollocks. At that age, strength, and size you are asking for trouble. And funny enough we get these lovely left to mature and left to their own devices horses in for breaking. Usually with a tube of sedalin in them that was hidden in a few buckets of feed over the day. They arrive nearly on the floor of the trailer with feet that I can't really describe. These are the owners that bring them to us like this. It's so unecessary and wrong.

Terri

[Cartier]

I agree, but boy do I feel for you. Hopefully someone can give you some good tips. Another poster here had a colt that was very tough as a wee one but grew up to be a nice boy....Cartier, maybe? I am not sure.
I’m getting old, :lol: I don’t recall ever having so ornery a foal... and all our adults are pretty sweet, all of our mares are puppy dogs. They trust and like us, so their foals trust and like us. They come when called, but that’s probably because they’ve learned over time that we mean “good things” to them... most especially, we mean treats, grain and all good to things to eat. So they come running to us, not away from us. We’ve only had about 7 foals... so I don’t have much advice here, except to say that I think you should handle this foal often until the foal is relaxed and accepting of you. Be gentle, be firm, be consistent. Be gentle, be firm, be consistent. Be gentle, be firm, be consistent. Be gentle, be firm, be consistent. Be gentle, be firm, be consistent.

And, did I mention, be gentle, be firm, be consistent.

It is no fun to get smacked by a young foal... but I think you have to stick with this. Foals have got to learn the basics while they are young. That includes standing to be haltered, leading, standing for a farrier, being bathed, clipped, etc. We are gentle and responsive with our foals, we do not stress them, we do not force or brutalize them, but we are not trying to be their buddies or friends either. We build on their curiosity about us from the moment they are born. Our foals love to be massaged; rubbed or scratched gently... a favorite spot is on the butt cheeks by the tail... and almost anywhere else that they can’t reach themselves. They can get almost orgasmic being scratched. But it is not about what's fun or cute, ultimately, for the safety of all concerned, the foals have to learn the basics while they are young. :yes: I can not imagine waiting til they are bigger and stronger to teach them the basics. That would be a mistake in my opinion.

Edited to add, I finally remembered that when our Lord Sinclair son Lord Baltimore was very young he needed vet care. The first vet we had out was afraid of horses, and in hindsight, he was brutal and stupid in how he handled foals. As I recall Belskie was around when this first vet tried to find a vein in Lord Baltimore. She and I were both a bit sickened by what this first vet did. It took this hideous vet about 50 pricks to hit a vein in Lord Baltimore. This vet had Lord Baltimore so traumatized it took three people to force him to stand still. He was completely soaked with sweat and terrified during the ordeal. It was a horrific debacle for so young a foal. The drama was all a manifestation of the wrong vet. Within 24 hours we had Dr Fred McCashin out. Things were 100% different. McCashin and his assistant Cindy like foals They were gentle, firm and consistent. They were able to find a vein on the second try, no drama, no forced, stressed, traumatized foal... it was all over before Lord Baltimore realized they were doing more than just scratching and rubbing him. He enjoyed the interaction with them. It was about how they approached and handled Lord Baltimore. The first vet was a moron, a brutal, insensitive, overly dramatic, ignorant man, who tried to force the foal. He created stress, tension, fear, panic and many more problems than he solved. McCashin was the exact opposite and from that day forward Lord Baltimore has been calm and trusting of people.

[ise@ssl]

Well we handle out foals from birth and they learn to lead immediately and are lead in and out daily. You gals that like the "wild horse" concept can go there. I'm not going to try to deal with a weanling that may or may not grow out of being wild when it's already been stated the mare is difficult to catch. WHAT'S THE POINT?? We breed horses and ponies to be ridden in the future and socializing them from day one makes the entire process a lot easier.

And tranquilizing an animal if it's stressed probably WON'T WORK.

Even foals that are handled can have stages when they are very independent but waiting until they significantly out weigh the handler is just ridiculous. And why have mares that are can't be caught?? We use peppermints to train our horses and all my horses or ponies need to see is an outstretched hand from me and the come.

[shea'smom]

JoZ,
I posted this same thread when my baby was your age! There is hope! Milano is a love bug now. Momma is very shy, but both have come around with a lot of attention. I am lucky. I turned my baby out beside my driveway, which has a gate. So, everytime someone got out to open the gate, he had to come over and see what was happening and got petted. that helped, plus hanging out in the stall and messing with mom.
Anyway, I didn't do anything new or different and my guy is great now.
Good luck.

[facinated]

Lots of foals are born down in the pasterns, they correct themselves.
When the hoof develops the toe is usualy the last part where the soft baby stuff grows out. That is why most babies go thru a stage when their feet look so upright.
The person says they have a lane leading to a pen already.
If your vet does not have drugs which work on a horse after it is upset, get a new vet.
If the baby NEEDS to have it's foot soaked, then it will get a crash course in handling,out of necessity rather than some modern theory that it is important to dominate scared baby horses. Animals that are hurt seem to know when you are helping them, and often end up extra trusting.

[facinated]

And furthermore! If you read the postings on this, and the other foal training related threads. This Idea of handling them when they are little because of a strenght/weight advantage is recurrent. That strength/weight is used to resist the baby's natural instincts for flight by using leverage on the head, neck, spine, and joints. Read the paper enough and some crack head will be explaining to the police "I just shook the baby because it wouldn't stop crying" Well the majority of horses have unsoundnesses related to the areas where leverage is applied when they are immature

[YankeeLawyer]

And furthermore! If you read the postings on this, and the other foal training related threads. This Idea of handling them when they are little because of a strenght/weight advantage is recurrent. That strength/weight is used to resist the baby's natural instincts for flight by using leverage on the head, neck, spine, and joints. Read the paper enough and some crack head will be explaining to the police "I just shook the baby because it wouldn't stop crying" Well the majority of horses have unsoundnesses related to the areas where leverage is applied when they are immature


I never manhandle my horses at any age; that is absurd. But I prefer to avoid getting killed by a rank one weighing 1100 pounds, thanks. Do you not get that if you weigh 100 pounds that you can very easily be lifted off your feet by a bigger youngster that decides to bolt or whatnot at the end of a lead rope?

I also would never again purchase a horse from someone who does not teach their horses basic manners. Most breeders here want to be able to sell their horses at a young age. How does that work if the youngster is a complete wild child?

[YankeeLawyer]

If your vet does not have drugs which work on a horse after it is upset, get a new vet.
If the baby NEEDS to have it's foot soaked, then it will get a crash course in handling,out of necessity rather than some modern theory that it is important to dominate scared baby horses. .

Good luck with that. And I NEVER suggested anything about "dominat[ing] scared baby horses." Amazing, I just never had these problems. As another poster said, be gentle, be patient, be consistent.

[AKB]

My neighbor's one foal was a terror from birth. Three of us, including a very experienced vet, struggled to hold him down for his IgG blood test the day after birth. My neighbor has been handling (grooming, massaging, leading) the little guy constantly during the month since his birth. Yesterday, he colicked. She and the vet had to give him IV fluids and tube him with mineral oil. He was a very good boy. If she hadn't spent the time teaching him to be handled, he would not be here today.

Get someone who is good with foals to help you make this foal into a good citizen. It is not easy, but needs to be done.

[horsekpr]

I am working with a couple od babies now.I have been in the position before of trying to teach horses to lead and be handled as 2 year olds ,and it is a much bigger problem than doing it from the get go.
One of the babies now had poked himself in the eye and needed ointment at 2 weeks old. It wasn't easy ,but not traumatic ,or brutal .If same injury were to happen to an unhandled 2 or 3 year old ,I would have had zero chance of treating the eye. What then? Just let the infection take it's course? He also had a slight runny nose. Vet wanted his temp monitored. Not easy to start with ,but after a couple of days ,no problem. So what if we didn't bother to take his temp ,and he got pnuemonia? There is a yearling on the place that has not been well handled ,and she is a real bitch to treat.has to be sedated just to change a wrap on her leg. Tried to take her temp a few days ago ,and she wasn't having any of it. I don't fancy getting the snot kicked out of me every time I need to do something with a baby ,much less a grown baby.
I suppose that if you aren't going to give your youngsters routine or necessary medical care,then you can just wait until they are 4 to handle them. I certainly wouldn't buy a 2,3,or 4 year old who can't be safely handled.

[facinated]

So when it bolts when it is small you hang on, or try to, right? When it pulls it's leg away from the Farrier, he hangs on while someone else hangs on to the head.
It is very easy to train horses manners, the ones you have purchased have probably been abused, or they would just be a blank slate.
Right now this foal lives with an eccentric PMU rescue mare. Now is not the time to try to change her, so if they are left alone the foal will not be traumatized either.

[facinated]

"My neighbor's one foal was a terror from birth. Three of us, including a very experienced vet, struggled to hold him down for his IgG blood test the day after birth"
If the foal was that strong at one day, why was the blood test needed? I bet after all that mess it came back normal, and that horrible experience could have been avoided. It is gentle now despite that trauma, not because of it.

[Sugarbrook]

Sorry, but I will correct you on that statement. An IGG test is IMPORTANT, and must be done!! No ifs, ands or buts about it. Proper positioning and holding of the foal makes the job easy. Yes, I have some leap and bound, but we keep them in our arms and the blood is drawn.

[VirginiaBred]

Because I haven't posted yet, I'll toss in my $.02........

I would keep both the mare and foal in a smaller confined space and work with the foal repeatedly until some progress has been made. Soft, quiet attempts over and over will eventually result in a break through.

You need to be able to handle the foal. Foals by nature are a curious lot. Your's may seem different, but underneath that exterior will be a curious foal that will eventually love attention.

You want to make friends now, before a dire situation makes you wish you had.

[grayarabpony]

Facinated, clearly you don't know what you are talking about. EVERY foal needs to have an antibody test done; you can't tell what the levels are from how the foal looks or acts. The only way to tell without the blood test is to wait and see if the foal gets an infection, and foals can get septic and die before you can say Jack Robinson. Checking an IgG levels is mandatory for good foal care.

An excited horse can burn through almost any sedative. Do you even own a horse, or spent time around any?

[RiddleMeThis]

"My neighbor's one foal was a terror from birth. Three of us, including a very experienced vet, struggled to hold him down for his IgG blood test the day after birth"
If the foal was that strong at one day, why was the blood test needed? I bet after all that mess it came back normal, and that horrible experience could have been avoided. It is gentle now despite that trauma, not because of it.
Im not even a breeder and I can tell how wrong your posts are.:no:

[Ajierene]

I agree with a least some of what Fascinated is saying - by forcing a foal at a young age, you can cause it harm and bad experiences.

We had two foals come to my farm once. A 10 month old filly and colt. The filly was a present for me from the barn owners. The colt, they had to buy in order to buy the filly (I won't go into their horse knowledge...they couldn't tell that my filly was standardbred/app, not standardbred/qh like they were told, obvious sclera around the eyes, etc.)

OK, moving on - these two were not handled at all from birth. When they were weaned, they were run into the barn and into their stalls to eat and the doors opened, they ran back out. They ran them into the trailer by opening the stall doors, closing the one side of the barn and chasing them into the stalls. The two weanlings were put into a small paddock where they could also be run into the stalls. Going out there, the filly was much more curious than the colt and if I sat in the field, she would come up and see what was going on. The colt was eventually sold to the farrier after they had someone come and put halters on both (against my wishes, I wanted to do everything with that filly). I tied baling twine under her halter. When I touched her, she would fly back and I couldn't catch her, but if I grabbed the bailing twine (she had learned to like carrots at this point). She would jerk her head back a bit, but give when she felt the pressure.

So, moral is, each horse will be different and just because a horse was not handled from birth does not mean it will be a bad or difficult horse. That filly had no lasting negative thoughts about people - so she was great. My mare was 4 and a half when my friend bought her. Yeah, you could lead her around, but don't get near her back feet, don't do something she doesn't like - bad experiences in her first four years. She is much better now, but still iffy about strangers and doesn't like her environment changed.

So, from my experience, I would suggest hands off the foal as much as possible and get friendly with the mare. Every once in a while give the foal a skritch or something. By trapping the foal, you are stressing him and giving him the impression that the strange two legged creatures want to harm him. This is just my impression - to me it is similar to trying to make a spooky horse stand still. When scared, horses want to move and by not letting them move, you add more stress to them.

[SonnysMom]

Ajierene- my QH has white sclera and mottled skin. He is most definately a full QH not an appaloosa. He does have a solid coat with no roaning but when you get him wet you can see the mottled skin on his chest, neck and legs. So the filly might actually have been a standbred/qh like they were told. (They still might not know anything about horses).

[eurofoal]

I agree with the stick-it-out-until-he's-better crowd. Even though he's scared and naughty, he'll only get bigger and harder for you to deal with. I'd approach it like "look foal, you're going to have to let me catch you, lead you, brush you and pick up your feet. You don't have to like it, but thems the rules- cope."

The biggest mistake I ever made with a rank foal was to turn them out into a big pasture and plod around trying to capture it. The whole thing went south in a hurry. I made a challenging situation into an impossible one. If you have him in a small paddock, your odds of catching him quickly to work with him are better, and you haven't inadvertantly "taught" him that he can run off and never be caught.

I'd also get a leather "breakaway" halter with a little leather thong catch rope on it. I'd leave it on... not a great choice, but, better than chasing him around and wrestling it on every time. As iss said, his job in life is a riding horse. Horses that aren't good riding horses have bad lives, so, you might as well tackle this now.

[RiddleMeThis]

Ajierene- my QH has white sclera and mottled skin. He is most definately a full QH not an appaloosa. He does have a solid coat with no roaning but when you get him wet you can see the mottled skin on his chest, neck and legs. So the filly might actually have been a standbred/qh like they were told. (They still might not know anything about horses).
What color is that solid coat? Would he happen to be a palomino?

[Tiki]

Facinated said dominate scared baby horsesGood grief. Well, I guess everyone always expects others to act the same way they do and speaks from experience, so apparently that's what you do, or used to do.

As for my recommendation - like the Mayor said to the Sheriff in Carter Country, 'Handle it, handle it, handle it". There is absolutely no reason or need to ever be rough with a foal. If you 'surround' it with your arms, but give it a little space to go back and forth, but NOT get away, it will quickly settle down. Yeah, the first few times it will stomp it's feet and fuss a little, but if you don't really hold it, it will settle down. In a few days it will get easier. From there it gets easier and easier and easier. If it does get away, it learns just as quickly that the harder it fights the quicker it gets away (or out of work). I do NOT want that in a riding horse.

I had a 10 month old get a really bad cut on the back of the tendon on the hind leg. I treated it for a while, but proudflesh stepped in. I called the vet for reinforcements in the treatment regimen. She asked how on earth she was going to handle a 10 month old weaned foal to get the bandage off, treat the leg and rebandage it. I went up to the little guy, snapped on the lead shank, led him into his shed (doorless), tied him with a safety knot to the tie ring, took off the old bandage and stood back. She couldn't believe it and said she wished half her clients did at least half the handling that I did. That foal was quite a character, but a piece of cake to handle as that's how he'd been brought up. I've had many similar comments from vets and farriers on my youngsters, and from professional handlers at breed inspections. You can take the baby's halter off, chase him/her around to show a really nice trot, then hold your hand out and they walk up to you and put their heads back into their halters to be led back to the inspector for a final looksee. I can't stand to watch wild, dangerous foals at inspections charging people and having to be penned up to be caught, fighting the haltering all the way. It's NOT necessary!!!!!

[YankeeLawyer]

=
It is very easy to train horses manners, the ones you have purchased have probably been abused, or they would just be a blank slate.
.

Uh, no. My horse was not abused by its previous owner -- except to the extent benign neglect is abuse, which I believe, arguably, that it is.

[Fairview Horse Center]

facinated, ya know, if your breeders take your advice, you won't have any more babies out there showing in the line classes. ;)

Are those owners "abusing" their youngsters, in your opinion?

[Blue Yonder]

A couple more things to consider, with your wild child. Not an easy place to be!!! ;-)

Scritches are a great thing and can turn even the most cantankerous guy into a reasonable friend, but some little ones get itchy later rather than earlier. If WC (wild child) isn't itchy yet, give him another 2 or 3 weeks. Just my experience. I've had some younguns who weren't a bit itchy at 2 weeks old, which I believe your WC is?? Obviously the effectiveness of scratching itchy spots as a reward is directly proportional to how itchy you are.

I very much endorse your handling technique. Be persistent. To each his own when handling little ones (assuming positive results), so don't flame me here --- my youngsters don't usually wear a halter until they're a month or two old. (Doh! I can't believe I'm telling anyone on COTH this!!) From the day they are born, I physically restrain and move them myself. One hand around the front of the chest, one hand around the butt and holding the tail on the far side (the arm slides over the top of the rump should there be any hopping or silliness). I take them for walks around the stall, make them go and stop as I say, we visit mom and then walk away from mom in the stall, staying calm and kind and firm and speaking gently. I hold them for the first farrier visit like this. Because I've gently established physical dominance from the get-go, the transition to halter/lead/anything is very easy -- they're accustomed to being "with me" in whatever form. Both of my vets and my farrier compliment the youngsters at my farm, which I suppose gives credence to my oddball program. All with no stress on the neck. (Well, the foal's neck. Mine hurts some times.) :-)))

With your WC, though he may not think you're his "best friend" and love you truly, oh well....continue to work in his space - kindly, and with expectations of good behavior!! Mentally think in positives: We are going to walk forward. We are going to mind our manners. We are going to keep our feet on the ground.

I rather think that if you approach the situation even a bit defensively (ie thinking Don't buck! Don't buck!), the foal reads that as either a slightly aggressive posture or as a slightly indecisive/weak one from you. Either one fosters bad foal behavior.

Repeat: you are the benevolent dictator. WC will learn your rules and will have a pleasant life!! ;-)

I'd plan to work through his wildness for at least 2-4 weeks more , before chunking him out.

[JoZ]

As the OP, let me just say that I have no intention of letting this guy get to be 3 or 4 without handling. But that still doesn't mean I have to do it now. Along with the PMU mares, I got a quite a few PMU weanlings who had never been handled. They were behaving like Tiki's colt by the time they were 10 months old.

But they had a blank slate, not weeks of fighting when they were babies. THAT is what I am concerned about. If I make this colt's life miserable, am I decreasing the chances that he will come to me in the pasture out of curiosity, or that he will settle in as a weanling and become a mannerly young horse?

I do not agree with most of what Facinated is saying about medical care (IgG for instance) and lack of handling, but I do worry about hurting this colt's soft tissue, bones or mind. Please believe me, this is NOT a case of gently but firmly restraining via a "foal hug". I can do that myself. This is TWO people hugging for dear life and struggling as he does stag leaps and rears across the stall.

Incidentally, while this is going on, his dam is munching hay. She does NOT contribute to the mayhem. I go in and pet her frequently during the day, and Junior is hiding behind her. Occasionally I can reach over and pat his bottom for 5 seconds before he scoots away. Right now he can go out in the small pasture or the arena but not for a full day, and not with foals for buddies. I can't imagine it would be wise to keep him in for an entire, short PNW summer to work through his issues. Not saying it will require that, but... just saying. I will continue trying for another couple of weeks and see where we are at that point.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

maybe for the next two weeks...just ignore him. Focus your attention on mama. Give her treats, grooming and affection. Let his curiousity take over. Let him approach you...ignore him.


I think if you are going to see a difference with this approach...you would start to see it within two weeks.

[YankeeLawyer]

I think I would try to use the mare's good behavior to my advantage, by fawning and fussing over her in the stall. I would completely ignore Mr. 'Tude and just focus on mum, and only slowly start to give him attention after he came over and expressed curiosity. Of course, without being there, it is hard to say exactly what to do because I can't see exactly what is going on and when. But I would think you could exploit the moments when mum is being good.

[facinated]

"facinated, ya know, if your breeders take your advice, you won't have any more babies out there showing in the line classes.

Are those owners "abusing" their youngsters, in your opinion?"

As far as I know, without exception, the Silvio foals are sweet, and docile from the start. The people who breed to him (58th mare today for'08) are professional horsemen, and women, who know more than I do.
They only show the babies when they can win!!

[facinated]

"I do not agree with most of what Facinated is saying about medical care (IgG for instance)"

In my opinion having four people wrestle a baby horse to the ground to draw blood to see if it is OK is very dumb. So is beating a baby horse with a 2x4.
The only IgG tests I have ever had come back low were when there was an obvious nursing problem. Now if I am worried at all I milk the mare, and bottle feed the baby a few times. If the baby won't drink I put a twitch on it, and train it before it gets too big

[Sugarbrook]

YOU TWITCH THE BABY???????????

[moonriverfarm]

I am NOT a breeder - probably the lest experienced poster about babies - but I did have wild (really wild) pony mare who I rescued with her 4 month foal. Neither wanted to be touched. I kept them stalled for a couple of weeks and every day i went in and sat in the stall. Just sat, for about 15 minutes. Then I started petting and rubbing Mama. Curiosity killed the baby and before too long she was walking over and sniffing me. Then I turned them out with an aged gelding, and he taught them I want the boogeyman. In a month i had a halter on the baby and she was asking for attention. They were always fed int he stall and spent time in there with me every day. It worked!
Just a non-pro's opinion.:winkgrin:

[Mia412]

We've used the love on Mama, ignore the foal technique with a wild foal. It took him a little while but the brat couldn't stand being ignored! He eventually started to try & push himself between his mom & us for his share of attention. The funniest part was that his mom would gently push him back out of the way - I'd like to say she was helping but she's never been good at sharing with others!

OP, good luck!

[Tiki]

facinated, you're complaining about surrounding and restraining a youngster and you put a twitch on a baby??????????????? HUH????? WTF????? I'm sorry, but the only time a baby needs to be bottle fed with colostrum is within the first 24 hours of birth. It cannot absorb antibodies after that time, and you put a TWITCH on a less than 24 hour old foal?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????
:eek: :confused: :mad: :no: :( :cry: What are you thinkiing????? And you want us to listen to you????????????? Good grief, Charlie Brown.

BTW, I guess you don't know that although some mares produce really top quality colostrum, and the foals do nurse, that some foals have absorbtion problems and have to have a transfusion anyway. THAT's the purpose of the IgG test - to ascertain whether AND how much of the antibodies were absorbed. Ever hear of FPT??? (that's failure of passive transfer, or - the foal did not absorb the antibodies and needs a transfusion)

[Equilibrium]

Count me in the gobsmacked group as well! You've told us what horrible-manhandling-assulters we are with our foals and yet you twitch one to get it to drink. And sorry I will continue to do the IGg tests on my foals thank you. Good grief, you have some strange ways.

I am also a believer in fuss on the mare, as originally stated. If I can get a pat or scritch in then I turn around and ignore them. Soon they get curious and want your attention. Plus all the extra loving on your mare makes her look forward to your visits.

Terri

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I also recommend the ignoring-baby technique. I would do it in a stall or other confined space, not because you want to catch him, but so that he has less things to become distracted by. He's need to focus on what you are doing, that you aren't hurting his dam and it's all good stuff. Momma is going to get so much good attention, grooming, treats, etc. :) If he continues not to like scritches, try gentle rubs. Some horses do not like scratches, perhaps they have more sensitive skin.

I come and go several times a day so they get used to that too. When he decides he does want to let you touch him, always leave him wanting more. Meaning, you end the rubbing/scratching session before he does. When I've got the foal enjoying some rubs or scratches, a step away just a bit, like 12 inches so they have to come to me for more but they don't have to make a huge effort to get to me for more attention. Over time they will follow me farther distances to get more. And then while they are still into it, you turn around and leave so he learns that attention comes on your terms.

[JoZ]

OK, color me officially aghasted. After I twitch my little guy, I think I'll hobble him and throw him in the back of my truck for a few times around the block. Because I sure don't want to be manhandling him! :eek:

Want to put a face to a story? Here's the little perp (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2127029940098982996IuFQOK)... :) Though this is a better example (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2118979260098982996hsuliK) of his stall behavior!

[facinated]

"YOU TWITCH THE BABY???????????"
Well if the goal is to teach the baby to accept everything. And it is so important to prepare it for a MEDICAL EMERGENCY, doesn't it follow that it needs to learn to accept a twitch??? Everyone knows that you can force foals to drink. After all they need to drink eventualy. Would you buy a horse that had not been trained to drink??

[Equilibrium]

I know I'm not the smartest person in the world, but I can't believe I didn't know they're were all these horses in the world that needed to be taught how to drink! The only foals I know of that won't or can't drink need vet attention.

Jo Z,
Think I'm gonna go wrastle with my babies, hog tie them, throw them in the truck and join you for a drive. Lets not forget to bring a twitch so we can make up drink. I'd hate for them to get dehydrated!

Terri

[Altamont Sport Horses]

"YOU TWITCH THE BABY???????????"
Well if the goal is to teach the baby to accept everything. And it is so important to prepare it for a MEDICAL EMERGENCY, doesn't it follow that it needs to learn to accept a twitch??? Everyone knows that you can force foals to drink. After all they need to drink eventualy. Would you buy a horse that had not been trained to drink??

My heart hurts for your foals. :no:

[RiddleMeThis]

"YOU TWITCH THE BABY???????????"
Well if the goal is to teach the baby to accept everything. And it is so important to prepare it for a MEDICAL EMERGENCY, doesn't it follow that it needs to learn to accept a twitch??? Everyone knows that you can force foals to drink. After all they need to drink eventualy. Would you buy a horse that had not been trained to drink??
You just keep digging and digging, deeper and deeper. :no:

[YankeeLawyer]

OK, color me officially aghasted. After I twitch my little guy, I think I'll hobble him and throw him in the back of my truck for a few times around the block. Because I sure don't want to be manhandling him! :eek:



What, you don't let your colt drive the truck?

[Hillside H Ranch]

I disagree with 99% of everything Facinated is saying, but I do believe that the comment about the twitch was just a sarcastic remark...

[Sugarbrook]

HUMMMMMM.........................ya think? Lets hope you are correct.

[Tiki]

Aaaahhhhhhhh, uuuuummmmmmmmmmmm, eeeeeeeeerrrrrrrr, my horses don't need to be twitched for the vet. My mare with lymphangitis a couple of years ago would stand for the vet and her assistant - without halter or lead - in the middle of the yard because she couldn't walk very well and let them give her 2 antibiotic injections plus stick needles in her hock to drain it, and then put in antibiotics. That's probably because she was so abused and wrestled and made to stand still when she was a baby.

But hey, that's a novel idea - if you go to a show, or an inspection, and the water is strange - just twitch 'em and force water down their throats. Whoops, I guess I should be teaching that to my babies.

Bring me my brown shoes and trousers!

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't even own a twitch.

[Tiki]

JoZ, that little guy is absolutely adorable!!!

[Just Wondering]

Well if the goal is to teach the baby to accept everything. And it is so important to prepare it for a MEDICAL EMERGENCY, doesn't it follow that it needs to learn to accept a twitch??? Everyone knows that you can force foals to drink. After all they need to drink eventualy. Would you buy a horse that had not been trained to drink??

Oh. my. word.

To the OP - I am with those that say to try the daily small doses of attention. Our colt this year was not as mild mannered as we have had most years. About 3 weeks of age he flipped his switch the other way. Nothing different done with him. He just decided he was ready to have manners I guess!

[okggo]

JoZ, that little guy is absolutely adorable!!!


Totally agree, what a cute guy!!! Good luck, and I am in the camp of daily attention.

[horsekpr]

uMMM,
I guess i missed the part about him lunging himself around the stall with 2 people trying to hold on to him.That sounds like he could get hurt.Maybe one person hanging out in the stall,and playing with Mom would be less scarey to start.
The two kids I have now came back from the breeeders unhandled and were afraid of me to start,but it didn't take too long.Once caught in the stall and gently hugged they realized it was okay.The leading was a bit more exciting as i kept a hold in front and back as tthey leapt ,pulled,or flat out refused to move.The first foal is HUGE ,but after a week was leading well.After 2 weeks ,much easier to capture and becomming friendly.After 3 weeks totally relaxed with me,lets me put halter on and off,leads well,and likes being fussed over.Started taking halter off a few days ago after he got caught on the water bucket.He stood like a champ and waited to be rescued.After that i figured he must be pretty well halter broke.Today I picked up each foot for a moment without a problem.
The younger baby is still a bit skittish ,but now greets me at the stall door and gives kisses in return for a chest scritch(doesn't care for butt scritches)He isn't as good as the older one yet ,and still tried to pull away during leading ,so I keep a hand on his tail for emergencies,,but he is really comming along.I think in another week he will be as relaxed as the other.It is really a patience thing.Take the time to let the foal get used to you

[classicsporthorses]

I have been reading through this and just waiting to post. I agree with so many to say keep up the work and handle the foal. We have 5-6 of our own babies each year and I get in for Foal Kindergarten 3-7 more each year so I am handling a lot of youngsters. Now mind you, some of these who "qualify" sadly are 16+ hand 1200 pound 5 year old who are hardly and I mean HARDLEY Halter broke. I mean not had a bath, mane brushed, won't lead, take off when try to be caught, the whole shooting match.

Anyway, Last year I had my first "difficult" baby. He was out of a mare whom I have owned for a number of years, and had other babies from and he was by my "you can knock him over with a feather Stallion" he's so quiet who's other get are very complient.

I could not believe this colt, he was like the colt from Mars he was so, so different from anything I had ever had. At first I thought he was just shy, then I realized he in his mind did not want human interaction (for some reason).

Cairo was a real trip and very hard to deal with. My babies all learn to lead by the time they are 3 months old, stand for farrier, get groomed etc. I could not even get really that close to him much less get a halter on him. I could scratch him on the butt but that was it. Try to move forward and touch his nose (that was the issue) and it was like I was going to electricute him, in his mind. His dam is a DREAM of a mare, easier than the OP"s mare. At one point we even tried in the stall to corner him and get the halter on in a low key way, He was about 3 months old.

Long story short, He stood to be scratched on his butt, what I was doing, while my daughter tried every so slowly and calmly to get the halter on. In a millisecond he moved, double barreled me in the groin area and broke a large blood vessel in my leg.

After I recovered, we called a few friends out and we did corner him against a wall and got that halter on him! It sayed on him with a short rope until he learned what all of the other babies in the past have learned. It took about a week. I kept him in a confined area, a smaller round pen, with his buddy-who was EASY and friendly etc. Today as a near yearling he is a dream. His full brother was born just on Sunday of last week. He is 100% opposite in personality. I could do anything to him and he could really care less, gives to pressure and LOVES attention.

Having had to deal with so many of the older ones, and I am talking from weaned age to 5 year old, it is SO much easier when they are little. Sure they can be strong but not as strong as a 1200 pound "foal".

Keep on working with him, he'll come around.

[AppJumpr08]

JoZ, he's lovely!!!

My little puke.. err.. I mean COLT (:lol:) is a bit of a handful too... and I've been mostly ignoring him. He CAN'T STAND watching momma get all the attention, and he's been getting more friendly day by day.


Good luck!! I hope he turns the corner to friendly street soon :)



And Fascinated... All I have to say is: :no::eek::sigh:....

[Fairview Horse Center]

JoZ, have you put a halter on the foal? I don't leave one on, but I definitely use one to hold it still while I play in a corner - especially if they are panicking to get away from a human. They panic and that sets up worse and worse reactions. You can TEACH them to panic/rear and run away if they are successful. Just a few times of holding them still while you "baby talk" and gently scratch with change their whole outlook on humans, and IMO prevent problems and injuries in the future.

If the halter goes on from day 2, they just accept it, and don't get crazy. They are just as likely to injure themselves with panicking as they are if you hold them still, but one is over in just a few sessions, and the other can be every time you get near them.

[ASBJumper]

*cough cough* Stop feeding the "facinating" troll, people..... LOL!! :lol:

To the OP - keep at it. Be gentle, but persistent. If you handle/groom the mare enough, eventually the foal will most likely be overcome with curiosity. It may take time, is all. But definitely keep trying!!

[Ajierene]

Ajierene- my QH has white sclera and mottled skin. He is most definately a full QH not an appaloosa. He does have a solid coat with no roaning but when you get him wet you can see the mottled skin on his chest, neck and legs. So the filly might actually have been a standbred/qh like they were told. (They still might not know anything about horses).

Interesting, I don't know if I have ever seen it in a full quarter horse, but this filly was also black - so not sure if it is the same. Consider they were told she was going to be a big, beautiful, 16HH black dressage horse. They were going to take her to NYC and sell her for big money....but if the barn owners bought the colt also (little, kind of ugly looking blanket app)....they could buy the filly.....

She 'grew' to be a 14.3HH gray pony with a head the same size as my 15.2HH mare, ears big enough to be confused for a mule and her tail didn't grow until she was 5. Nicest personality ever, though - could do anything with her, and I did. Randomly toss a shirt over her head and put her ears through the sleeves, pull her tail, push her around - and she would come when I whistled.

As far as JoZ's colt - cute as a button! I would agree with the others that say do not mess with the colt much, but pay attention to mama. As a weanling he still shouldn't be so big that he cannot be handled if he isn't messed with to much and I would err on the side of caution - preferring to allow his curiosity get the better of him rather than inadvertantly give him a bad experience.

[JoZ]

JoZ, have you put a halter on the foal?

Yes, I have. Here's how our sessions go. Friend and I enter stall. We walk around quietly until the colt is behind the mare and between the two of us. One of us reaches out to pet the colt, which causes him to go forward, into the waiting arms of the other person. This is a much calmer approach than having one person try to chase him around.

Then one person holds the foal, as much as it takes. Sometimes he can be held fairly loosely, though he never seems happy. If he jumps, lunges, rears, etc. he is restrained by increasing the "hug" pressure. Then the pressure is lightened up again as long as he stands.

Then the one who isn't holding him puts the halter on and off. We ask for "nose in the halter" and try to encourage the foal to move into the halter, rather than pulling it on. He doesn't resist OR comply at this point, just holds his nose aloft. Once the halter is on, he is looped into the soft lead rope, and encouraged to walk around the handler and/or across the stall. Then I (if I'm the "trainer" not the "hugger") run my hands down his legs and gently pick them up. He's actually not too bad about his feet. We end with petting and "good boy"ing, and take off the halter at a point when he is standing quietly.

I am not as concerned with his training as I am with his attitude -- as I've said before, he doesn't seem to enjoy the petting and the attention, and he is getting no more interested in coming to us while we are playing with the mare. And during each training session there are generally at least 3 to 5 eruptions of baby 'tude (the rearing, jumping, etc.).

[EqTrainer]

This might sound odd but I would be very concerned that because everytime he is touched by a person he gets to move away, that he is literally learning that is the way it works. She touches, he moves.

I had two feral fillies years ago. Breeding definately relates to trainability, because one of them was quickly in my pocket and taught to tie, lead, pick up her feet, etc. The other was a true wild child. I had to be very careful that I did NOT put her in a situation to move away from me at her own free will. This means...

oh yes, I will admit it..

I taught her to tie before I tried to do anything else. So that at least when she pulled back, she thought she could not go anywhere. Even if it wasn't necessarily true :lol: she did not figure that out, thank God.

She turned out to be very nice but there had to be a starting point and that was it. Later I ended up w/her mom and then I knew WHY she was that way.. her Momma was that way, too.

FWIW, my now three year old was virtually unhandled when I got him at 7 months. He was easy, easy, easy. A BIG part of his good behaviour is that he was out w/a very dominant herd leader who kept him in line. 24/7 from the Boss goes a long way. I'd be seriously considering weaning this guy early and putting him out with ONE other horse who will lay down the law. I sincerely believe it will make your life much easier if it is already on his mind that bad behaviour is not tolerated.

But the getting in a pat or scritchie and then he moves away? I don't know if that's a good idea... training is training after all, whether it's what we want them to do or not.

[JoZ]

This might sound odd but I would be very concerned that because everytime he is touched by a person he gets to move away, that he is literally learning that is the way it works. She touches, he moves.

That bothers me too! Enough that I don't pet him every time I could reach him (the other times I just mull it over in my head and decide against it!). I guess I'll try the "ignore the foal, love on the mare approach" AND continue the training, such as it is, of the little bugger. That would cut out the middle ground of touching him when he is free to walk away from it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

JoZ, I think if you keep going just what you are once a day, you will be fine in a few weeks, but I also would not try to touch unless you aim to catch and hold. One of my babies this year was left a bit for a week or 2. I was a bit worried and did not want to stress him. He also was not in the willing mode, but I continued just a few minutes a day of handling him. I also put 3 stall guards across his door, so he could hang his head out into the aisle. He loved it, and gradually we could approach and touch without him leaving. He also didn't like scritches, but now he is a pest, and loves them.

[GGStables]

He's a QT-Pie, JoZ

Know what might work, is to stay in their stall with general loving and attention to mommy until he gets tired enough to lie down and THAT's when you "pounce!" :yes:

Gently sidle up to him then and rub his neck or tummy, leg or wherever you can gently reach, softly - for just a little bit and YOU move away first - while he's still down, worrying whether he should get up to avoid you. The idea is to communicate that it isn't always he who gets to make the call on when the touching stops.

My colt, while not quite such a live wire as yours, is now a yearling who loves to sleep with his head on my lap and there is nowhere on his body I may not touch.

[avezan]

he is CUTE! Another suggestion, along the lines of ignoring him, is to sit in the stall quietly... for a long time. He will probably be overcome with curiosity as to why you aren't working with him or trying to pat or scratch him. Just ignore him, and if he gets close enough, maybe touch his leg or his nose if he reaches to you. Just be careful he doesn't wheel and kick you. Good luck with him.

[Kyzteke]

So when it bolts when it is small you hang on, or try to, right? When it pulls it's leg away from the Farrier, he hangs on while someone else hangs on to the head.
It is very easy to train horses manners, the ones you have purchased have probably been abused, or they would just be a blank slate.
Right now this foal lives with an eccentric PMU rescue mare. Now is not the time to try to change her, so if they are left alone the foal will not be traumatized either.

Facinated: I have to ask -- how many foals have you raised? And how many "Untouched" two-four year olds have you started?

There are plenty of ways to teach foals good horsey manners without "hanging on their head". Yes, you can out muscle them alittle easier in the first week or so, but none of it is about brute strength. It's about being consistant, firm, gentle...it involves timing, feel and experience.

Last year I was talking to my vet about putting horses down and I asked him if he'd ever shot a horse. He said, "yes," and that he ALWAYS carries a gun on his rounds.

Why? Because: "sure as hell every year I'm going to have to put down some wild yearling that has hurt itself and will never allow itself to have an IV started."

Younger IS better...I've raised some 30 foals of various breedings and everyone of them leads, loads and stands for the farrier by weaning time. And it's all been done my me -- a 55+ yr. old woman with one fake hip. Believe me, I'm not wrestling them to the ground to do it.

Just because something is in a book doesn't make it true or accurate.

[facinated]

I have raised lots of babys, sold lots of horses, trained lots of horses, and broken lots of young horses. This woman is not you. She is having trouble, and it sounds like the mare is the source of the problem. She is going to teach the baby to worry when people come around, so people should stay away. The mare is not going to change, especialy while she is worried about the foal.
If your vet shoots horses because he can not handle them, he is a jackass.
There have been people on this thread talking about wrestling baby horses to the ground to draw blood for an igg after the window of opportunity has passed anyway. Maybe they use Dr. Six Gun's brother, Dr Milk The Cow. Another person bragged about chasing their baby around until it stopped so they could whack it with a 2x4
2,3,4 yr old horses that have never had a bad day can be up to speed and doing great a whole lot faster than most of the mis-handled young horses I run into regularly. Most people are just not sharp enough to know when to stop with a baby horse, so they should leave them alone until they are strong enough to remain sound through the mistakes.

[Fairview Horse Center]

This woman is not you....Most people are just not sharp enough to know when to stop with a baby horse, so they should leave them alone until they are strong enough to remain sound through the mistakes.

That I can understand & agree with to a point. We have VERY few "horsemen" (women) any more. People don't "speak" horse, or understand their body language. They have no instincts to judge what to do at the moment. Too many people "painting by number" and few "artists".

I still don't think a foal should be left alone, because an older horse can still get seriously injured, and in many ways more. I think people need to get help from an experienced person that can show them how to train a foal without putting it in danger.

We DO put pressure (or actually the foal does) on a foal's neck by holding the rope on the halter, but I KNOW how much is safe. I certainly don't want someone not experienced doing it without competent help that can "read" the situation, moment by moment.

That said, I want to put a person in danger MUCH less by not making them have a large, mature yearling, etc that is not only unhandled, but now opinionated, strong, and weighs MUCH more than a few day old foal. I guess your point would be that at that point, they HAVE to send it to an experienced trainer.

[facinated]

My point would be that if it is a big strong horse there is less chance of permanent soft tissue damage. Difficult horses especialy need to be sound because only upper level riders can deal with them. Upper level prospects need to be sound.

[facinated]

All of you experts should check out the thread "he turns into a devil..."

[Dandilicious]

I bought a 3 1/2 year old raised by Facinated from birth and was like many of you are when it comes to the need to train foals from birth. I have never been so amazed by the animal that I now own. Nothing had ever been done with him including tying, trimming, grooming, feet picking. NOTHING! This horse has been the easiest animal to train that I have ever dealt with. The first time I put him in the trailer he walked on, he tied without any problems, lunged perfectly and even jumped over small cavaletti on that first day. My point is that he knew nothing but had never been manhandled so he trusted me because of never having to fear humans. Facinated fed him, petted him and let him know he would be safe. Other than that he just let hiim grow into the wonderfully mannered animal that he is.

[JoZ]

Breakthrough -- there's a spot he LIKES to have touched!

Freak that he is... it's his EARS! I have had perfectly lovely foals and horses who are sensitive about their ears. Not Nigel... don't touch my butt, don't rub my neck, but oooooh go to town on my little ears. He also seemed to like a forehead rub and a scritch between the jowls. Again, face petting is generally the last place I go, but I'm a fan of trying anything once... and whaddya know?!

He was much better tonight in general. And when I was grooming and loving on his mom afterward (she gets cookies to reward her for letting me handle the foal, not that she has ever interfered or gotten upset), he actually kept peeking around mom's chest and rump to see what I was doing.

You're going to have to trust me that what he WAS doing for his first 7-9 days was outside the realm of experience of not only me, but several quite experienced friends and acquaintances. So I am delighted to see an improvement in such a short time.

[classicsporthorses]

You go girl! Glad to hear of your progress and his too. It will get better. I know you are probably doing this but I always squat down when dealing with foals so I am at their eye level and not as "threatening" and let them approach me and check me out.

[YankeeLawyer]

Breakthrough -- there's a spot he LIKES to have touched!

Freak that he is... it's his EARS!


YES!!! Congratulations!! That is great news!!

Re difficult horses needing to be left alone until 4 because only upper level riders can handle them -- yes, I agree, if you leave a difficult baby until he is 4 you are greatly increasing the chance that only a pro can deal with them. Except the better pros -- the ones I would want training my horses -- generally don't want anything to do with a rank, unhandled, 4 year old. That is when you see the threads here begging for referrals to some cowboy to get control :rolleyes:

[Kyzteke]

Breakthrough -- there's a spot he LIKES to have touched!

Freak that he is... it's his EARS! I have had perfectly lovely foals and horses who are sensitive about their ears. Not Nigel... don't touch my butt, don't rub my neck, but oooooh go to town on my little ears. He also seemed to like a forehead rub and a scritch between the jowls. Again, face petting is generally the last place I go, but I'm a fan of trying anything once... and whaddya know?!

He was much better tonight in general. And when I was grooming and loving on his mom afterward (she gets cookies to reward her for letting me handle the foal, not that she has ever interfered or gotten upset), he actually kept peeking around mom's chest and rump to see what I was doing.

You're going to have to trust me that what he WAS doing for his first 7-9 days was outside the realm of experience of not only me, but several quite experienced friends and acquaintances. So I am delighted to see an improvement in such a short time.

Good news! So you hit a 'bump' in the training -- it happens. It's part of the process. It will happen again (and again) so be ready. You will think the horse (foal) "has it" then it's like they never did it before! But just hang in there and keep up with the program....eventually it will all smooth out.

And again -- it IS better to get a foal use to all the stuff it will be subjected to. Yes, it's true that here out west it's common to leave horses out on the range, untouched, till they are 3 or 4. But there are more people who know how to deal with a horse like that then there might be back East.

AND if you plan on selling the foal as a weanling or yearling (which is what I generally do), who the hell wants a foal that isn't even halter broke? Or won't load on a trailer? The stress that comes from forcing the foal/yearling to do all that just out of the blue borders on cruel, if you ask me.

My little guys load on the trailer as sucklings and then we keep in up as weanlings. They are being lead, haltered and giving their feet to the farrier as early as 1 week old. For the most part I raise breeds that are considered "hot" (Akhal-Tekes & Arabs), so it's really NOT a good idea to not get them on a program early on. You might get away with that with a QH or WB, but with the hotter breeds I think not.

I sure as hell don't want to wrestle with some 1000 lb. rebel who wants to argue with me.

Again, good luck -- keep it up!

[Ladybug Hill]

I agree with working with the foal every day. Sounds like you are doing well. Glad that you are making some progress. I have had a foal that declared that he did not like humans. It required work for a full year to make him accept me, but honestly he ended up being one of the easiest to bathe, tie, clip, etc probably due such intensive work.

I have also worked with older horses that were untouched. It can be downright dangerous. Have seen a very knowledgeable handler be put in the hospital due to being attacked by an unhandled weanling. Unhandled horses are not just naturally trusting as some previously indicated. I have seen a few that never really completely trusted humans even with fair, kind, and proper handling as a mature horse.

I agree that overhandling can be just as detrimental though. I mostly just spend about 10-15 minutes a day with my foals--just leading in and out and running my hands over them briefly. I don't want lap-foals--hate spoiled horses.

[facinated]

How many young horses do you think require veterinary attention because someone did something to them??

[YankeeLawyer]

How many young horses do you think require veterinary attention because someone did something to them??

None in my care.

No one is suggesting that abusing youngsters is preferable to leaving them alone. As between appropriate handling of a youngster and the hands-off-until-3 or whatnot approach, I believe the consensus is it is preferable to introduce the baby to the everyday things in life that it will need to accept in order to be a reasonably good citizen. No yanking, cranking, beating, or whatever (in fact, that has no place around horses of any age, let alone ones that are still developing physically, imo).

[Ladybug Hill]

How many young horses do you think require veterinary attention because someone did something to them??

Everything I have bred and raised for the last 30 years has gone onto a successful riding career with no signs of any damage from gentle firm consistent handling on a daily basis.

[facinated]

So have you all read the "he turns unto a devil..." thread on this bb?
Also you two are probably the only experienced horse people in the world who have never hurt a horse by doing something stupid. Here in the south a common refrain used to be " I don' see what all the fuss is 'bout, my slaves are happy here!"

[classicsporthorses]

I think the concensus is to handle our youngsters and we can all agree to disagree as there will always be a spectrum of acceptable training/behaviors allowed in any thing we may be involved with-be it raising horse, dogs or kids.

I know for me, I have always handled my youngsters and even had to handle them with more "force" due to having to hold them for vet, inspect a wound, shots or whatever. I also know that my youngsters, thanksfully, do not have emotional baggage b/c overwhemingly we work WITH them, treat them with respect and expect the same, teach them and build their foundation, set boundaries and are firm but fair.

Case in point, my nearly 2 year old filly got out at 12:30 AM and again at 5 AM today. we did not know the fence was not working. She is in her first heat so where does she head? Naturally to the paddock where one of our stallions is (her father). The first time, in the complete darkness. I call her name, she walks to me, I put on a halter, as her father is being a stallion (I told him to shut up and he did and stood quietly), my other stallion is calling (I told him to shut up and he did and stood quietly). I lead her back to the pasture, fixed (or so we thought) the fence and went back to bed.

At nearly 5 AM, my other stallion sounded the alarm, he's out night time alarm system on the farm, we got up and she's out again in the same spot. She walks right up to us, we repeat the scenerio but this time we walk into a dark barn and stall without incident. She is 16 hand and about 1100 pounds.

My point is that she had been handled, not every day either, but has the foundation that we continually build on. Even in completely darkness she knows what is expected, she trusts and she responds appropriately to the direction(s) given. NO chains, no whips and in a halter that's too big.

I know personally when we have had to bring babies, including my younger stallion, to Cornell, the vets, techs and staff have THANKED US, for having youngsters who were so well behaved and easy to handle. I was told they can't stand getting in youngsters how have not been handled as it's a nightmare.

I would Much rather have a youngster that has been handled then one who had not.

[facinated]

"my nearly 2 year old filly got out at 12:30 AM and again at 5 AM today. we did not know the fence was not working. She is in her first heat so where does she head? Naturally to the paddock where one of our stallions is (her father). The first time, in the complete darkness. I call her name, she walks to me, I put on a halter, as her father is being a stallion (I told him to shut up and he did and stood quietly), my other stallion is calling (I told him to shut up and he did and stood quietly)."

Another great post on this bb is "my straw bale smells like marijuana"

This

[arena run]

Fascinated, your posts are indeed fascinating. :)

I agree w/your point, no handling is substantially better than wrong handling. But --- correct handling is to be preferred over waiting, imo.




BTW, after reading through this entire thread methinks everyone who responded in a negative way to Fascinated's posts just got sucked in by a consumate troll-artist. I was almost snorking my milk at the hysteria she caused by her twitching comment.

Ya'll really, gotta get a life and quit reading so much into things.....


OP!!!!! Great job and that is sho'nuff a cutie pie - at least, what I could see of him as he, seemingly, was headed up and over that hot wire fence. (??) sylvia

[facinated]

That is a simplistic dismissal of my insightful use of ad-hominim arguments, and reductio ad absurdium to stress my point. All I need now is spell check.

[Tiki]

troll!