Breeding - Is it REALLY a crapshoot?

[Centuree]

I have heard this so many many times. But is it really true? :confused: For example, if you are breeding the best with the best, are'nt you guaranteed something? If you know those bloodlines, have seen what they produce, both dam and stallion have excelled to the highest levels of their discipline, doesn't this mean something for their offspring?

I have an opportunity to custom breed a foal of a top mare (that has excelled to the highest level of her sport) to a stallion of my choosing. I am very tempted by this offer as I love the mare, have a very nice stallion in mind, and think I'll end up with something very nice. (am i way off?)

Or - is breeding really a crapshoot? who knows what your going to get? Am I better off to buy a foal from a reputable breeder? Or even go down to Europe and import one? (This would probably cost me the same in the end).

What do you guys think? Have you ever bred a top mare with a top stallion and ended up with a mediocre baby?

[ThirdCharm]

I have yet to be disappointed by any of our foals. :-)

Jennifer

[Centuree]

Thanks Thirdcharm. I appreciate that feedback from your experience :)

[gubbyz]

I have seen the most perfectly conformed and bred horses fail at the sport they were bred for, and some grade horses surprise us all. I do believe it can be a crapshoot. But then again, a well planned out breeding has produced champions. I would do it, as long as the foal is healthy, you stand a great chance with proper upbringing to succeed at whatever you want. :yes:

[Jaegermonster]

There are just no guarantees, that's all. There is a long way to go to day 340, and a lot can go wrong. Even at delivery, there is a lot that can go wrong. And you never know what recessive gene or whatever might decide to rear it's ugly head.
Of course, the better the quality of your breeding stock and the better the quality of the mare during gestation, the more the odds are stacked in your favor, but nothing is every 100 %.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Yes, you can stack the deck in your favor, but there are still variables you can't control. You can breed the best to the best and perhaps the cross isn't a good one and the foal doesn't live up to the genetic potential of either the sire or the dam. Then there are all the things that just pop up; congenital problems like a severely crooked leg, a club foot, severe OCD, etc. Some of these have a genetic component but some of them also just happen and we don't know why. Then there are all the things that are relatively rare, like heart problems, scoliosis, etc that thankfully we don't see very often but that aren't ruled out by breeding the best to the best. So in that sense, breeding is a crapshoot. You never know if you are going to get a healthy foal on the ground that is able to live up to its genetic promise.
So I suppose that is my answer to your question, although it doesn't address ability so much as health, which certainly can limit ability.

[amdfarm]

I think a good example of *crapshoot* breeding is racehorses. If the best of the best held true, we'd probably had many more Triple Crown winners by now.

There is no such thing as a "perfect" horse, therefore chances of producing one are quite slim. And whether you breed for a foal or even buy one, you have to make sure they make it to training age w/out getting sick, injured or worse, dead.

[Foxtrot's]

I think you are probably better off to buy a baby, healthy and on the ground. The costs of breeding, missed breedings, maintaining the barren mare for the year she does not take, birthing risks, not being an improvement on his mommy or daddy, crooked, etc.

But then - if you love babies, love your mare and want a homebred there is nothing like the satisfaction. You know everything that has gone into it, have control of its program and education. That's the priceless part. To think you will make money if you want to sell, for the small breeder that's a stretch, but possible, with luck.

[rideagoldenpony]

When you start with top quality individuals -- I don't really think it is. Will you always get *exactly* what you expected? No. But in general you will at least get something comparable to the sire and/or dam.

Starting at the top, like it sounds like this opportunity would be for you, I would expect that you would get something quite lovely.

Then again, currently residing in my pasture is a gelding (NOT NOT NOT bred by me) that has the most beautiful pedigree on paper, and he is so *not* what you would expect/hope from looking at his papers. However, he received very inadequate nutrition during his first year (and probably his dam was not well fed during his pregnancy either), and I think that was a contributing factor to his supreme lack of quality.

Choose sire and dam well, the very, very best you can afford, and go from there....

[Evalee Hunter]

Studying statistics will tell you that there is ALWAYS "regression toward the mean". Look at humans & intelligence. Yes, two intelligent parents tend to have intelligent children, but, if you put a number of that intelligence ("IQ") then you will find, ON AVERAGE, that the children are not as intelligent as their parents (they "regressed toward the mean") & that some of the children will be much brighter than either parent.

Same thing happens with horses - race breeding is an easy one to look at because there are well kept records going back 100 years or so. Do two outstanding race horses (outstanding in their own performance & outstanding in their own parentage) always produce an outstanding race horse? No. In fact, most of the offspring tend to be more nearly average than either parent, with a few outstanding individuals.

If you want to breed your own, do so! It can be very gratifying. It can also be heartbreaking. Read these boards & you will see both sides. If you are willing & able to throw money away & deal with the heartbreak, then breed. You may get the most perfect foal ever, or you may get a very good foal that is everything you hoped for & wanted, or you may get a foal that is very below average, or even deformed. If you want to know what you are getting, buy a foal already on the ground.

Even full siblings can be very different. We have a warmblood filly. We also know her full sister. They are so different, it is almost unbelievable that they are full siblings. Decide what you are comfortable with & do it!

[dbaygirl]

Does this mare have any offspring? That is definitely a place to begin your evaluation on whether it is worth breeding her. If she does, find out who the sires were, do the comparisons as to who matched up best with her and go from there. Breeding to a 'top stallion" does not necessarily mean that that stallion is the best MATCH for your mare.

My experience: my first breeding attempt ever produced a result far beyond my wildest dreams (and I am quite picky!) :-) I can honestly say that my colt appears to be split right down the middle of sire and dam, inheriting the best from both. I did search in person for the right stallion, seeing them all in person before making my decision who the father would be. I was so happy with my first colt that I bred back to the same stallion and got another colt who was of equal quality from what I could tell as he only lived for two months...long story. This match was made in heaven.

I can tell you that to me, breeding my mare was one of the most satisfying things I have done with horses. Losing the 2nd colt was difficult, but many breeders lose horses, it's the very hardest part of breeding them. I would think on the positive here. There can be negative in anything in life. I wouldn't let bad experiences of others sway your decision to have a foal from a very good mare. It's something to be aware of and to educate yourself about to lessen the chances of it happening to you.

I think that genetically speaking, it can be a crapshoot but if you do your homework and do not just breed to the nicest stallion without evaluating how he might improve or blend with your mare's qualities, you greatly increase your odds of achieving good results. Good genes can sometimes skip a generation or two. I believe that even if you do not produce a STELLAR foal out of two top notch individuals you will still produce a very nice horse. Even so, the experience of your mare giving birth and you raising the foal are so rewarding and educational that I would say it is worth it all around.

I wouldn't bother going to Europe to buy a horse as we have their bloodlines here. Do not discount small farm breeders if you decide to buy a youngster. Often they do not have the financial resources to show or approve their horses, even though they have some top notch individuals on their farm.

Good luck!

[pintopiaffe]

I'll answer before reading the others, so I don't colour my response.

I think it's 25% crapshoot. :yes: And that is: the 25% of the punnett square that you didn't plan/count on. Really, less than that, but in a simple four sided punnett square, that bottom right corner is what I'm saying... so expand that out... some things that are genetic rather than cumulative--height for example. Same mare, same sire crossed x4, 3 are a nice 16h... 4th was only 14.2 or 3 last time I heard. Of course that wast the one for the very tall, althetic young woman. :uhoh:

I think type-to-type brings the most predictable results. And I think sometimes we're not careful enough and breed show-record to show-record rather than type-to-type.

A lot of folks raised their eyebrows when I bred my very baroque 1/2 Arab to a Cutting/reining bred APHA a couple of years ago. STOCK horse... a very uphill, lovely moving stock horse, with a hind end I know compliments her. I also know she stamps her foals very strongly... the result was exactly as expected, winning the bronze at his inspection (silver went to her 2yo son :lol:) at a very awkward yearling stage. Fabulous comments, great scores, a dressage prospect all the way. Type to type. There's also the lovely bonus of hybrid vigour in certain crossings. Doesn't mean you continue to outcross--you go BACK to one of the lines. Preferably line breeding.

Just my theories, of course, I think that breeding is one part science, one part art, and one part luck. :p

[facinated]

I would do it. If you could breed to the mare's mother it would be better, but why not try. Perfofmance does not seem to breed through consistently, but good producing mares can usualy be counted on. You should try to breed a beautiful, gentle baby. If it excels at something, great. Good looking sweet horses have a much better chance at a nice life, than difficult superstar prospects, that did not make it.

[FriesianX]

Everyone else has said it too. Best to best may give you a better chance of quality, but there are NO guarantees. And of course, you need to understand what "best stallion" tends to throw, and what "best mare" tends to throw. Genetics are complicated, there is much more to it than best to best.

And you CAN end up with a fabulous foal without spending a ton of money, it is a gamble. You can also end up with huge vet bills, or a mediocre offspring, or a lovely baby and a dead mare, or a decent foal who ends up injured, or... The list goes on and on. And therein lies the crapshoot... How much do you spend and what do you end up with?

[NoDQhere]

I believe that if you are breeding PROVEN bloodlines to the same AND the same TYPE, you have a very good chance of getting a very good foal. Then, if you are happy with a nice, capable horse rather than hoping for an Olympic caliber horse, you will probably be happy :) The crapshoot part of breeding, IMHO, is much more the "what can go wrong" aspect rather than the quality of the foal. LOTS can go wrong to break your heart and your finances :eek:

[grayarabpony]

Breeding is a crapshoot. Sometimes you're going to get a horse that somehow got all of the flaws of both parents and isn't good for hardly anything. Other times you'll get a horse that's good for something besides what the horse was bred for. Look at all of the OTTBs that sucked on the racetrack but were world beaters at eventing and show jumping.

I think the best you can do is breed sound healthy athletic mares to like stallions and then try to put the resulting baby into what he's best suited for.

[Fairview Horse Center]

You can breed Olympic Gold medal stallion to Olympic Gold medal mare and get awful.

That said, breeding is not a crapshoot IF IF IF you are an experienced breeder that knows their bloodlines, and what will cross consistently for a quality horse. A good breeder will get a "range" of talent, but all produced should be nice horses with ability to do reasonably well.

[Centuree]

Thanks guys for your input. Well, as you can probably tell, I am NOT an experienced breeder. Never done it before. Mare in question is not mine. I would be doing ET transfer and leasing a recipient mare from a reproductive facility and boarding recipient mare there until foal is born and weaned. Mare is too valuable to breed herself and is still performing.

The reason I chose the stallion is not simply because he is a top performer, as many stallions out there are, but he is being used for similar mares to create the type of offspring I am hoping for.

I have seen what this mare has produced, out of a different stallion, but not out of this particular stallion. They are fairly similar as they both have a lot of TB inflence in their pedigree, are both on the lighter side, and are fairly similar in hights (one is 16, the other is 17hh). Nonetheless, ... there's a bit of a question mark there how the two will cross. I'm still really unsure about what to do :confused:

[Fairview Horse Center]

How similar in type and conformation are both stallion and mare to each other? How similar in type and conformation are they to their parents and grandparents. Can you get someone experienced in conformation that you trust to evaluate their pedigree and photos/video of their ancestors AND their offspring?

At least get an offspring/foal report from the registry to see what qualities they expect to see in stallions in the cross, then look to see IF you have those issues in your choices.

[Oldenburg Mom]

I have heard this so many many times. But is it really true? :confused: For example, if you are breeding the best with the best, are'nt you guaranteed something? Have you ever bred a top mare with a top stallion and ended up with a mediocre baby?

Yes, it's really true, IMHO. No, you aren't guaranteed anything.

Yes, kinda...a friend of mine bred a top stallion to a wonderful mare...without going into any details at all, she's got a pasture pet for what,... 30 years?

You can breed Olympic Gold medal stallion to Olympic Gold medal mare and get awful.

I completely agree with this... you sure can.

*Huge Giant Disclaimer: this is someone I know that doesn't even live in this country and doesn't post on this BB (in fact he doesn't even know how to turn one on.)*

[Fairview Horse Center]

That is what is REALLY the crapshoot about breeding.

Will you get the semen in the mare at the right time?
Will you get the mare in foal?
Will she carry the pregnancy?
Will the delivery get a foal safely on the ground?
Will the mare be a good mom?
Will the foal be healthy?
Will the foal not succeed in trying to kill itself?
Will you have the experience or competent help to raise a foal to be a good citizen?
Will you have the experience or a competent trainer to start a youngster under saddle?
Will the result be most suitable for the discipline you desire?
Will he/she like it?
Will the personality end up being a good match for you?
Will some strange marking disappoint you?
Do you have a strong preference for the sex of the foal?

[Oakstable]

I think the OP has a good shot at getting a decent foal from the mare and the stallion she described.

Those of us who have been doing it a long time know that things can go wrong. So how many folded their tents and quit?

[Centuree]

Well all the first variables depend on the vets, as I said before, I am removed from the mare, and will be relying on the experience of others (not myself). The recipient mares are selected due to their good reproductive history and good mothering instincts, so I'm not too worried about this. But I am very worried about having to go through the procedure several times in case the transfer doesn't work, or the mare slips, or the donor mare doesn't get pregnant, etc... as I will be footing all the bills.

As far as raising the foal to be a good citizen, we'll see. I'm no greenie though, have worked at the track breaking babies, galloping racehorses, halter breaking weanlings, etc... Also, I am not planning on breaking this one myself, will send him/her away, although I've done it, I don't really enjoy it. I do not care about markings (my own horse has one eye), not concerned with the sex, have ridden everything from hot hot hot, to lazy, to naughty, spooky, and knowing both parents, I'm sure it would be something I could work with.

Thanks Oakstable. I appreciate that.

However, Fairview Horse Center, I definitely will take your advice on getting a conformation expert to look at the lineage of dam and sire, offspring, and pedigree. So you can request an offspring foal report from the stallion's registry? (I was not aware of this).

[Oakstable]

Well, the KWPN has a detailed (almost too detailed) foal report on their stallions.

I don't think most NA stallions produce enough foals to have a valid foal report. For one thing, foals are registered in more than one registry so there are a variety of judges taking a look at the foal crops.

You can find out more on what European-based stallions are likely to produce from their indexes.

But too much analysis takes all the fun out of it, IMO.

[witherbee]

I'd say that buying a foal that already HAS all of the traits you want as well as having the conformation you want would be a much safer bet and can be very rewarding as well without all of the risk. You can buy the foal as a weanling and raise it, so you'll still get the benefit of having a "clean slate".

If it's too expensive to buy exactly what you want in a weanling or yearling, it sounds like you are doing the right thing by going for a high quality mare and stallion. My main concern is always whether they'll be crooked or have some fault that affects performance. Even the best to the best can produce that, so it's risky, and in the long run you'll probably spend about the same as you would have if you bought a weanling or yearling... With so many unwanted horses right now and a very bad ecomony, it might be hard to place such a horse if youa re unable to keep it.... JMO.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

What is your real goal? Choose one and only one that has the highest priority to you.

A) Do you want/need your next competition horse that you know will do well in your chosen discipline?

B) Do you want a foal out of this very special mare?

C) Do you want the experience of producing your own foal and raising it?

D) Do you want to "save money" by producing your own foal?


If you choose A or D as the highest priority then I would say that you should find a foal that is already on the ground. The crapshoot is that they are still growing and while you might have an indication of how they will turn out, it's not a definite. On the other hand you could buy a young horse that is nearly mature but they have been under someone else's care and training longer which may be good or may be bad. Young horses hurt themselves in ways that prevent them from ever being started under saddle. If this happens you've spent more money on taking care of the foal/horse's injury/ailment and end up with a long term pasture pet that only continues to cost you more money over the long haul or which you can give away as a companion but brings zero return on your investment.

If you choose B or C as the highest priority then I think this is a good opportunity for you to give it a go and potentially get something you'd like to keep for yourself. The more research and thought put into matching the sire and dam the better your odds are for producing the type of horse you want, especially if the genetics have been consistent across generations. You have to keep in mind that even if the foal turns out how you would like it to physically there is no guarantee that the personality/mind will match the body. Jumpers want to be dressage horses and dressage horses want to be jumpers, etc.

If you're going to take the risk is everything else as close to ideal as you would like? Where will you foal out the recip mare? Is is convenient enough that you can spend a lot of time with her and her foal? Do you have a lot of time? Do you have help? Do you have outstanding vet care? Sorry, but it seems there are a lot of people out there who still don't have access to a high quality *equine* vet, much less a high quality repro vet. Will your foal have access to other youngsters before and after weaning so that he/she can play and develop good horsey socialization skills? If the foal isn't inclined to do what you want (physically or mentally), when it is mature, could you bring yourself to sell it after you had put so much money into it or after you became emotionally attached?

While there are many unknowns in breeding horses I don't believe it is very common to produce a foal that is so unlike either sire or dam that it cannot be used at all. Sure, it happens. More than likely, however, you would only get some throwback recessive conformation issues that aren't obvious in the sire or dam but probably still have a usable horse. Breeders take on this calculated risk all the time and it is hard to accept when it happens, I'm sure, but if you are producing only one foal with a lot of expectations you will need to consider how it would impact you if the foal doesn't meet those expectations.

[Oakstable]

Foals out of true performance mares are fairly rare. That would be the reason for going for the OP's original idea.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I totally agree with Altamont's "goals". A & D, you would likely be better off buying a youngster that is on the ground - especially trying to do ET.

If your goal is B or C, do your research and go for it. Put temperament HIGH on the list though. If the youngster does not end up being the high level competitor you personally are looking for, its best chance at a useful life with be if it has the option of being suitable for amateur riders.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

This may have already been said, I haven't read your other responses. I know there are devotees of the "best to the best" method of breeding, but I am more of a Tessio student... in that I breed strengths to weaknesses. Of course, you always start with the best in terms of the mare coming from a mother that has produced great sport horses. You'll want the maternal grandmother to have produced fillies that are good producers and there to be approved and licensed stallions coming from the motherline.

Based more on where she came from than where she has been (i.e., Ratina Z) you look at her weaknesses and find an approved and licensed stallion that has sired exceptional sport horses in the discipline you're after. You're after a stallion who can correct (or "fix") her.

For instance.... I have a Ramiro mare who herself was a champion hunter. She is from Ramiro's last crop and one of the last Ramiro mares on the face of the earth. Comes from a very well known and sought after stamm (motherline). This mare is beautiful but has one slight weakness.... she needs a stronger rear end... more power. I guess if she had the power to be a showjumper, she wouldn't have been a hunter. :-) All of that said, she has the genes to produce something very special. So, what I want to do is keep the genes and change the type slightly... I do that by using a carefully selected stallion.

To correct her weakness, I bred her to a stallion known to put a good hind end and legs on his offspring. It would have been a mistake to breed her to a famous stallion with a big jump without knowing his strengths and weaknesses... Had I bred her to a stallion who doesn't necessarily put on a powerful hind end and good springy hind legs, I would have made no progress. (I bred her to Campesino and got exactly what I was after.)

Myriad books have been written about breeding theories. I'm reading one now called Racehorse Breeding Theories by Frank Mitchell, Ph.D. that is very interesting. Many theories behind breeding successful Thoroughbred racehorses are similar to those behind breeding great Holsteiner showjumpers. I spend hours studying pedigrees, nicking, female family inbreeding and all the other nuances of breeding theory. If you're serious about wanting to produce something special, it's not a simple thing.

On the other hand, if you want to raise up a spectacular show horse of any Warmblood breed or discipline, you don't have to breed it or go to Europe to find it. The motherlines are here in the US and Canada. Stallions come along every day on a FedEx truck and you don't have the risks involved in getting a healthy foal on the ground. You just have to know what it is you're looking for and trust the breeder to know what he/she is doing. :-) The best of the best is here and you will get the biggest bang for your buck on this side of the ocean.

[Centuree]

Oakstable hit the nail on the head: this is exactly why i want to use this mare, because I do not see high performance mares producing. She is not my mare, and I have no emotional attachment to her, she is just such a stellar top notch mare (with excellent bloodlines), and this is why I want to use her! And yes, it is also to produce a competition horse for myself.

And Altamont, you said, if producing a competition horse for myself, I am better off buying a baby. But I really believe that gives me just as many variables. Not so much in personality or conformation, but definitely performance wise. If I am using a top mare, I believe my chances of getting performance offspring are higher, than using someone's broodmare with a nice pedigree. Am I way off? Do I sound like a complete amateur? Or is there some validity in thinking this way?

I know that there is absolutely no way I am going to make money on this venture. I plan on keeping the baby, and if I have to sell due to financial or other reasons, I will do it, but that is not the plan. And like I said before, this is in no way a cheap venture as I have to pay board and all vet costs on the recipient mare plus have to pay the mare owner a Dam fee, And who knows how many tries it'll take before I get a foal.

It'll probably cost me 20k in the end (if nothing goes wrong). So perhaps I am putting my eggs in one basket, perhaps this just isn't logical.

Thanks ShowjumperUSA for your theoretical breeding perspective. I think I need to hire a consultant. Are there breeding consultants out there for hire that are experts on bloodlines and conformation?

I am in no way certain that this is the route I should take. So I really appreciate everyone's pros and cons. This certainly has given me a lot to think about, and maybe I should start looking at weanlings for a bit before making up my mind. Another question though: where does one find high quality youngsters?

[Home Again Farm]

Ditto Altamont and Fairview. By adding the ET to the equation, you will have added a lot more expense, plus the factor of the recipient mare's unknown temperament. Few clinics truly know their ET mares that well. I have three recips coming home this week and am waiting to see what I will have to work with.

Good luck to you!

[Centuree]

Thanks HomeAgain for the reality on ET clinics and recipient mares. That would not have been my assumption.

[Home Again Farm]

Thanks HomeAgain for the reality on ET clinics and recipient mares. That would not have been my assumption.

It was not mine either in 2004 when I ended up raising my first ET baby as an orphan after the recip thought she might like to kill the foal. No amount of vet's help, drugs or time changed her mindset.

Most do not end up that way, but it is a possibility.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do! :yes:

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Centuree, everyone is going to tell you they have high quality youngsters.. :-) You are going to have to do some serious homework.

Meanwhile, how many top showjumpers do you know of that came from mothers who were top showjumpers... anywhere in the world? As a devotee of the Tesseo method, I would rather have a foal out of the mother of Ratina Z than a foal from Ratina Z herself. Not all sporthorses are good breeding stock and, likewise, mothers of some of the greatest showjumpers that ever lived never stepped into a show ring. I would say this is where the idea of a "crap shoot" comes in... if you don't know the history of the motherlines, top and bottom, it's a crap shoot.

[Centuree]

Centuree, everyone is going to tell you they have high quality youngsters.. :-) You are going to have to do some serious homework.



Of course - I meant to say, internet databases (ones specifically for breeders), warmblood sales, etc...?

And good point on the breeding perspective. I do know the lines, top and bottom on the mare. She is a very nice combination of some very popular lines. I'd give more info, but dont' think thats fair to the owner.

[Hillside H Ranch]

[QUOTE=Centuree;3275942]And Altamont, you said, if producing a competition horse for myself, I am better off buying a baby. But I really believe that gives me just as many variables. Not so much in personality or conformation, but definitely performance wise. If I am using a top mare, I believe my chances of getting performance offspring are higher, than using someone's broodmare with a nice pedigree. Am I way off? Do I sound like a complete amateur? Or is there some validity in thinking this way?

But you don't have to just use "someone's broodmare with a nice pedigree". There are performing mares out there, who come from families that have produced performers that are now retired to broodmare status. You just have to take your time shopping to find them.

IIt'll probably cost me 20k in the end (if nothing goes wrong). So perhaps I am putting my eggs in one basket, perhaps this just isn't logical.

If you are willing to spend 20k, you can get an awfully nice baby that is already on the ground for that. What happens if you spend that much and never get an embryo/pregnancy? You have to be prepared for that b/c sometimes breeding just doesn't work out, especially throwing ET into the mix.

QUOTE]

Also regarding ET mares; keep in mind that most of those mares are recipient mares for a reason. I.E. they can't do anything else. Most of those mares are bought at auctions for as cheap as possible and there is only one criteria that keeps them in the herd-a healthy uterus, most of them are also easy to palpate b/c most vets don't want to deal with a kicker. That's it. The big clinics with herds in the hundreds can, in no way, guarantee temperament, etc. We have a small herd and some of the mares still have issues-hard to catch, don't like loading, etc. I've seen recips that were cribbers, had one eye, were barely halter broke, etc. Something to be aware of!

[Centuree]

Thanks HIllside, I know I put it to simply when I said someone's broodmare with a nice pedigree. I didn't really mean it to be that simple. But i appreciate your advice, and everyone elses.

Where do I find these awfully nice babies? I'm not well connected to the sport breeders, and really don't know where to look.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I almost said something about the recip mare but didn't. But Home Again is correct, you don't know what kind of mother the recip mare is going to be even if she was a good mother before. A lot of recip mares end up as recip mares because nobody wanted them. They may not have had much socialization with humans and then were difficult to train and ride because of it. Maybe they just had occasional tempermental quirks or maybe some mild lameness that prevents them from being a consistent mount. A good mother may still not allow you to get near your foal. This is a big problem. Also, if you search these threads you will probably find other posters who mentioned that their mare was a good mom but then something snapped for the second, third or fourth foal and she could not be trusted with the foal. It probably doesn't happen a lot and it's never happened to me but is a possibility.

I agree that there aren't as many foals coming out of good performance mares and so this is a great opportunity in that respect. I'd probably snatch that opportunity up in a heartbeat myself but I'm also not relying on that foal to become something in particular just for me because, as a breeder, I have multiple offspring to choose from. I'm also not trying to talk you out of it by any means but just explaining what variables breeders consider to be included in the "crapshoot." And if you haven't bred before you might not have considered some of these potential issues. I will say that breeding your own baby to raise, train, ride and compete is a very rewarding experience. I also think you have a better chance of enjoying the fruit of your labor, so to speak, if you are willing to go in the direction that your foal is inclined to do physically and mentally. In other words, if you are open to doing hunters, jumpers or dressage...or eventing and not just one or the other.

If you want some guidance I would recommend you get friendly with a few people who have been breeding for several years and are very knowledgeable with regards to the mare breed's bloodlines, stallions available, etc. I have found that the long time Trakehner breeders are very friendly and enjoy discussing the pros/cons of particular bloodlines and matching stallion to mare. And those that have been doing it a long time will likely be privy to some valuable information about what stallions/bloodlines produce, both good and bad, that you might not find out about otherwise. What is the breed of the mare you are interested in and what is the discipline you are wanting to breed for? Maybe someone here would be willing to offer you some guidance.

[Hillside H Ranch]

If in your heart, you really want a baby from this mare, then go for it. I think most of us are just pointing out that you need to be realistic (which it sounds like you are). If you are interested in finding very good babies already on the ground, check out the sales sites like dreamhorse.com, equine.com, warmbloods-for-sale.com. Most of the breeders on this forum also have their websites in their signature lines. Check out the classifieds for the various registries. Check out the breeders groups, like breedersgroup.com, or midamericasporthorse.com (there are tons others). Check out the websites for any stallions that you like; most of those owners also have offspring for sale.

[Centuree]

Thanks Altamont.

Mare is Irish bred, with some popular Holstein and Selle Francais sire lines on her sire line. Also very popular, well known irish bloodlines on the mother line with some Tb as well.

Stallion (that I would like to use) is selle francais with lots of Tb infused throughout his whole pedigree except for his bottom mother line.

Do you know anyone who knows the Irish or Selle Francais bloodlines well?

Thanks Hillside Ranch - I appreciate the database and website advice alot! Will take some time to see whats out there for what cost before making a decision.

And while I am realistic, I am not rich, do not have piles of offspring to choose from, and truly am putting all my eggs in one basket here. So I appreciate all the perspectives offered thus far. Also should add, would be happy with an eventer, show jumper or dressage prospect. (prefer eventing though!) Would be very dissapointed with a pasture ornament though :(

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I would recommend you get in touch with Megan Gillenwater of Kegan Sport Horses. She knows her Irish horses well, owns an Irish Draught stallion, and is a very nice person to deal with. She has given me plenty of advice regarding the Irish bloodlines (we've had a few IDSH foals here) and we have bred to her stallion Macha Breeze twice. She has pulled back a bit on breeding foals herself due to multiple job transfers but she is still involved and standing her stallion. She really seems to enjoy helping people find the right match for their mare. She received a phone call when I was visiting and I heard her discourage somebody from breeding to her stallion because they wanted something she felt her stallion couldn't do (bring down the height of a tall mare). I have to say I was very impressed with her honesty.

Her name on COTH is Gillenwaterfarm but you could probably get in touch with her through her website www.kegansporthorses.com

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would rather have a foal out of the mother of Ratina Z than a foal from Ratina Z herself. Not all sporthorses are good breeding stock and, likewise, mothers of some of the greatest showjumpers that ever lived never stepped into a show ring.

You BETCHA! I bet Luna (Salinero and Seven-Up's dam) has not done much of anything except to produce several Olympic horses in 2 disciplines. SHE is who I want a baby out of, not her daughters.

[Centuree]

I hear your point here. And will peruse some websites to see if I can find some high quality broodmares that are known for producing exceptional offspring.

For me though, this is not an option with the mare I want to use as her mother is no longer alive. And even if she was, she's not in NA, she's from Ireland.

Thanks you so much Altamont. I will definitely try to contact Megan Gillenwater.

[Fairview Horse Center]

If she is from Ireland, why don't you see if Tom will give you some advice. You are trying to breed a jumper?

[Centuree]

Eventer actually.

Tom? Is that his name on this board?

[Donella]

No, it isn't a crapshoot if you go about breeding the way a really good breeder should! And I believe this because experience has shown me this. The best breeders in the world understand genetics and they understand the value of a damline. They look WAYYYYY past combining two good horses and they truly understand the meaning of exceptional. If you are into crossbreeding or breeding horses that are not the cream of the crop in all ways, then yes, it definately becomes alot more risky and hard to predict.

If you choose two parents who are very similiar in type AND the mare comes from a great damline, then your chances of producing something pretty similiar is very good. Obviously if both parents have excelled at highest levels of sport, you are increasing your chances again.

Again, I think most poeople who adhere to the total crapshoot thing are the kind that don't really understand the science of breeding/genetics (blended traits vs non ect ect).

[Fairview Horse Center]

Tom? Is that his name on this board?

Tom http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=151627

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I bred my first mare this year.....due this month...so I'm not an expert but been around people who breed sport horses for a long time. My mare had only gone Prelim but has the scope/gallop/movment to go further (and may still). Top UL riders who I know told me to bred her as soon as it was known that I had to give her some time off (minor injury). Her 1/2 brother was the FEH champ last year and her 1/2 sister is packing my ass around now and will likely do her first one star next year (and will go further if I don't mess her up). Breeding is a crap shoot....my three siblings are all nice horses...and all solid event prospects... but as different as night and day from one another. They all do seem brave and tough. And all, with the right rider, would be probably be top horses...but they are stuck with me;) So while a crap shoot....this dam obviously produced nice event horses.

My advice....if you want to breed for the experience go for it. As far as costs....it at least spreads it out a little but in the long run...it is probably more expensive. But if you are putting your eggs in one basket for an event prospect....I think you are far better served saving your money and buying at least a 3/4 year old who you can put your hands on and see if they look like they have the talent and want to do the job. To get the foal on the ground, healthy and then past the age of 4....and then also want to be an event horse (setting aside an UL event horse)....is fairly high risk. These little guys die pretty darn easily....and don't always want to grow up into what we want them too. But they could also turn into the horse of your dream....and too me, the fun part is making the choices and bringing them along to their potential.


There are breeders out there breeding event horses out of mares who have competed. I know of a few who have mares in their herd who have gone from Intermediate to a few with **** mares. But they are harder to find....and you should expect to pay for it when buying one of their foals.

ETA: While I tend to agree with you that I like a mare who has proven herself....there are some great broodmares out there who never did but still produced mutiple top horses.

[grayarabpony]

No, it isn't a crapshoot if you go about breeding the way a really good breeder should! And I believe this because experience has shown me this. The best breeders in the world understand genetics and they understand the value of a damline. They look WAYYYYY past combining two good horses and they truly understand the meaning of exceptional. If you are into crossbreeding or breeding horses that are not the cream of the crop in all ways, then yes, it definately becomes alot more risky and hard to predict.

If you choose two parents who are very similiar in type AND the mare comes from a great damline, then your chances of producing something pretty similiar is very good. Obviously if both parents have excelled at highest levels of sport, you are increasing your chances again.

Again, I think most poeople who adhere to the total crapshoot thing are the kind that don't really understand the science of breeding/genetics (blended traits vs non ect ect).


Hmm, there must be some people in racing who need the assistance of your wisdom then....

[Izthatrt]

Sure would help if , when you do get a super baby, they aren't on a "suicide mission" The very best ones seem to always get themselves in trouble. Cast under the fence, jump over the fence, step in the only hole on the entire farm...

[incahoots]

I second Tom, go to his website and read his blog....just google morningside stud. He has some excellent articles on breeding. I think breeding to produce an upper level eventer can be even more challenging than a jumper or even a dressage horse. To me, so much in eventing is heart and soul....the horse has to be so brave and want it so much. I wonder how much of that is genetic, and how much is just personality. I guess it's the old nature versus nurture again. I must agree with a previous poster that if you are really wanting something that has the ability to do advanced you must look at the 3/4 year olds...lay your hands on them and watch them and look in their eyes. If you have $20,000 to spend call up the O'Conners or some such experience and ask them what they think! Go to the eventing forum and call up Denny! He posts their regularly and he would be a great one to pick his brain about breeding the eventer! Good luck and remember to have fun with this....it's a dream!

[Sunny's Mom]

I don't think its a crapshoot at all.

I think its a LOT of fun. The only foal I've had problems with is one I didn't breed myself.

Each new foal is a new adventure waiting to be written!

[YankeeLawyer]

You BETCHA! I bet Luna (Salinero and Seven-Up's dam) has not done much of anything except to produce several Olympic horses in 2 disciplines. SHE is who I want a baby out of, not her daughters.

Me too! How cool would that be to have one of Luna's babies.

[Centuree]

Thanks guys.
Will definitely check out Tom's blog for sure. I was going to do that last night, but just ran out of time. Will also see if Denny would offer any advice.

[gillenwaterfarm]

OP,
I'd like to talk with you about this mare, and what you are wanting from the cross. I've bred an Irish x TB to a SF (with high % TB) with excellent results, and would repeat the cross again. Janet on the board owns the one I produced, and he did well in the FEH last year. Anyway, I think the Irish/SF is a great nick. Please email me at kegansporthorses at gmail dot com.

[FriesianX]

No, it isn't a crapshoot if you go about breeding the way a really good breeder should! And I believe this because experience has shown me this. The best breeders in the world understand genetics and they understand the value of a damline. They look WAYYYYY past combining two good horses and they truly understand the meaning of exceptional. If you are into crossbreeding or breeding horses that are not the cream of the crop in all ways, then yes, it definately becomes alot more risky and hard to predict.

If you choose two parents who are very similiar in type AND the mare comes from a great damline, then your chances of producing something pretty similiar is very good. Obviously if both parents have excelled at highest levels of sport, you are increasing your chances again.

Again, I think most poeople who adhere to the total crapshoot thing are the kind that don't really understand the science of breeding/genetics (blended traits vs non ect ect).

I've known some REALLY experienced breeders who understood genetics, who had studied in Germany, who had the money and the knowledge to do it right. They still had culls, mediocre babies that they dump for cheap. You don't hear about those horses - believe me, they are hidden away! No one features the culls on their website. Top quality horses and top quality knowledge put the odds more in your favor, but there is no guarantee in breeding. You shift the odds, but you don't control the odds.

Most breeders (at least most with any kind of experience) understand the odds, understand how to work them into better odds, but they also understand there is NO guarantee. It is a gamble - all you can do is study the statistics and try to work the odds.

And, even after that top quality baby is BORN, there is no guarantee that it will stay sound, healthy, and make it to adulthood. And that is part of the gamble too! I don't think anyone here claims it is sheer "throw the dice and hope for the best", but any breeder knows they are gambling.

[Windswept Stable]

An old pony trainer told me some years back that she had quit breeding because of the inconsistency. Her summary was that one could have a very nice sire and dam... and cross them 4 times... she seemed to think the odds would be as follows: One of the four times you will get something exquisite, twice you will get something middle of the road okay, but one of the 4 times you will get something awful that you want to hide out in the back forty. ?? I am not so sure she was correct...but it is something to think about.

[Daydream Believer]

I agree...not a complete crapshoot. Certainly some chance is at work, but I am producing consistent quality foals by my stallion and my handpicked high quality mares. I think if you breed only an average quality mare to a good stallion, you might only get average. I think you way stack the deck in your favor by only breeding the best mares to the best stallions. The problem is that I think few people are really honest about their mare's quality and breed for sentimental reasons more than anything else or they figure if it's registered something it must be worth X to someone...and that is not true anymore in this market.

I do think occasionally the best stallions and mares might produce a below average foal but generally you will get offspring at least as nice as the parents. I also have found certain bloodlines really do click and once you know that, you stack the odds for success that way also.

[pwynnnorman]

I'm a bit surprised by how folks are answering the question.

How can you answer that unless you know what the person is breeding for?

If they are breeding for a pretty palomino with a nice temperament, breeding is NOT a crapshoot at all. If they are breeding to produce the next winner of the Grand Paradubice steeplechase, it's a huge crapshoot.

I think I have the perfect crapshoot formula:
The more complex the (equine) endeavor, the more of a crapshoot breeding is.

So, breeding a lower-level dressage horse, eventer or jumper is less of a crapshoot than breeding an FEI one. Breeding a regular working conformation hunter is more of a crapshoot than breeding a childrens pony hunter. Breeding a 100-mile endurance horse is a crapshoot compared to breeding a pleasant trail horse.

Isn't that really all there is to it? It's not art. It's not science. It's do your homework, accept your budget and make note of where on the sliding scale of crapshootology your breeding goal is located so you get neither disappointed nor too full of yourself.

[grayarabpony]

I meant a crapshoot as far as producing a horse for something specific, not for producing a horse that wasn't good for anything at all. I don't think breeding for athleticism is a crapshoot.

[Izthatrt]

Good answer Wynn. How true that is. I know when I wanted to breed my hunter mare, I realized I would not be getting a world beater, but would have a piece of the mare I rode and loved for yrs. That was the important thing for me. I wouldn't have cared what it looked like in all honesty. Now my only option would be to clone her, lol.

[Donella]

FriesianX I didn't mean to say it is a guarentee, that is forsure! I am just saying that it doesn't HAVE to be a total crapshoot.

[FriesianX]

FriesianX I didn't mean to say it is a guarentee, that is forsure! I am just saying that it doesn't HAVE to be a total crapshoot.

Hehehehe, what exactly is a crapshoot? Maybe that is where the confusion comes in. To me, it implies a gamble - and of course, depending on how you make your bet, the odds vary. The long shot is breeding mediocre to mediocre and hoping for grandeur. The better bet is breeding quality to quality, and like type to like type.

I'm not a craps player though, give me good ol' Poker any day, the odds make more sense in that game ;)

The OP did ask if she was guaranteed something by breeding best to best, and of course, you aren't guaranteed quality, you just have a (much) better chance of quality, assuming all else is equal. In fact, I think the only guarantee with breeding is you will spend money!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I'm a bit surprised by how folks are answering the question.

How can you answer that unless you know what the person is breeding for?




I believe the OP is breeding for an upper level event horse...that is why it is a crap shoot. If all goes smoothly....should be a nice foal. But whether it will run around Rolex is always a big gamble. And as FriesianX posted...a big gamble is what I consider a crapshoot.

But that said...buying any young horse to be an UL event horse is a crap shoot. It is truly a sport where you don't know if a horse is going to be one to go to the top until they are there.

[YankeeLawyer]

Isn't that really all there is to it? It's not art. It's not science. It's do your homework, accept your budget and make note of where on the sliding scale of crapshootology your breeding goal is located so you get neither disappointed nor too full of yourself.

LOL. That would make a great sig line.

[pwynnnorman]

I meant a crapshoot as far as producing a horse for something specific, not for producing a horse that wasn't good for anything at all. I don't think breeding for athleticism is a crapshoot.

While I fear I may be getting too deeply into Clintonism (as in, "that depends on what 'is' is), doesn't that, too, depend on how you define "athleticism"? Cutting horses are amazingly atheletic, but I sure wouldn't want to ride one down to a four-foot jump.

Same with this:

breeding best to best


Ummmm...and the "best" is defined how? By performance (even though you can't breed to the trainer's skill or the owner's pocketbook)? By pedigree (even though that'd make it kind of a circular definition in this particular context)?

Indeed, I dare say it might even be hard to get a group of breeders to describe the traits of a "sufficiently athletic" jumper. From Tomboy to Teddy, there have been an awful lot of great jumpers who would defy definition. I mean, if we can't even decide on what "is" is, how can be decide on what is or isn't crapshooting?

Now, that's NOT saying breeding something someone will BUY for x-purpose is a crapshoot. But buying it isn't the same as being able to definitely state that you did indeed "produce" it (via breeding). If it were, your average decent breeder would make a lot more than your average decent trainer--and methinks that ain't the case! :winkgrin:

[FriesianX]

I think Pwyn makes a really good point - a big part of the formula for a top competing horse is the TRAINER! A decent horse can be a world class horse with the right trainer. MOST of us are adult ammies, or mid-skill trainers, we can do good by our horses, but not great... So add that to our gambling odds.

And, even if you breed the most athletic, talented horse, it has to have the MIND to handle the stress of upper level sport. Many horses wash out because mentally, it is too much strain on them.

Guess the original title has now become - are horses a gamble :D

[tom]

FresianX wrote: "A decent horse can be a world class horse with the right trainer."

Do you really believe this? I do not.

A horse with the world of potential can be downgraded to a "decent" horse (or less) in the hands of untalented trainer/rider/owner but a "decent" horse will never become "world class", irrespective of its trainer/rider/owner.

[pwynnnorman]

Nonsense, Tom. AGAIN, it depends.

Lots of "decent" seeming creatures out there who aren't even thought of as "world class" until someone makes them such. So how can you know what "decent" vs. "world class" IS? For all one knows, "world class" in some sports IS "decent made world class by a good/determined rider/trainer."

Endurance comes to mind. As does eventing. And many an oddball show jumper. And, hey, and what about Stephen Peters' dressage horse--Udon? Was that his name? Decent, if I recall correctly. Not seemingly referred to often as "world class." But sure did well enough at the international levels (don't know if you'd care to call that "world class," but there we go again with our definitional problem!). Again, IIRC.

Actually, I think there are a ton of "decent" eventers, combined driving horses/ponies, reiners, cutters, etc. that have world class attitudes and so could BE world class if they had landed in the right hands. Thank goodness for that, in fact: that there ARE still sports out there where you can take what looks to be ordinary, find the gold inside, and bring it out.

Goodness, Tom! The more I think about it, the more saddened I am by your POV there. "World class" indeed! In what sport is it so impossible? (Well, dressage, of course--and any other sport where subjective considerations govern success.)

[grayarabpony]

Actually I imagine a really good cutting horse wouldn't have a problem with a four foot jump, if it's not too wide. They have a lot of power behind and have to be quick with the front end, but don't have much stride and probably wouldn't have a whole lot of scope.

I was thinking more of TBs -- there are so many ex-racehorse who were wash-ups on the track but were excellent showjumpers and eventers. The gallop and the scope really seem to go together, although the jumpers have a more climbing gallop that would be too slow on the racetrack. Breeding something as specific as a topnotch racehorse is more much of a crapshot than breeding a good eventer or jumper, because there's a lot more options in the sportshorse world if you're willing to give the horse the options.

[FriesianX]

FresianX wrote: "A decent horse can be a world class horse with the right trainer."

Do you really believe this? I do not.

A horse with the world of potential can be downgraded to a "decent" horse (or less) in the hands of untalented trainer/rider/owner but a "decent" horse will never become "world class", irrespective of its trainer/rider/owner.

I do believe it. I'm not saying an Olympic contender, but I've seen some pretty average moving horses put in the hands of top level trainers, and a few years later, WOW, you wouldn't realize it was the same horse. All of a sudden, you've got jaw dropping movement. They aren't taking crap horses and making them world class, but they are taking horses that were "ahhhh, OK, but nothin' special" and making them pretty darn incredible.

In fact, at a recent USDF Symposium, we saw exactly that as a demo. A horse asked to go along in his normal "slumpy" trot, then asked to come up, engage, and collect with a top quality rider. You should have heard the gasps in the crowd.

[tom]

I guess some of you believe that the bell curve does not exist, that like at Lake Woebegone all of your horses can be above average. No, I am sorrry. Not "above average." They can be "world class" if only they could be put in the hands of expert trainers and riders.

Maybe your and my definition of "world class" differs. But somehow I don't see even the very best riders in the world, be they showjumping, eventing, or dressage riders, having a surplus of world-class horses.

The normal distribution cannot be repealed.

[pwynnnorman]

Ok, Tom. This is what you said:
a "decent" horse will never become "world class"

So, what did you mean? I'm just curious. Since you're a breeder from abroad, I think it'd be kinda instructive to understand how you think. so, how do you distinguish "world class" from merely "decent"? (And what sport are you referring to or are you really referring to ALL horse sports?)

I understand the normal distribution curve, but that involves variation around the mean. Are you defining "decent" as average (i.e. the mean) and merely implying that, statistically speaking, there are fewer at the "tails" and urgo fewer world class animals? But if so, I still don't see how that explains whether or not "decent" can be trained into "world class".

Edited to add: Actually, as I think more about it, I think the distribution of talent is akin to an L-curve, not the normal distribution.

[Centuree]

Wow, glad I started this thread. Very interesting discussion.

Anyways, continue your breeders debate as you know much more than I. I just like to follow.

Anyways, I understand that even if you do find something with enough talent/temperment combination, you need the right trainer to get to the level you want to go.

Nonetheless, thats not really my concern at this point. If the horse is too talented and difficult for me, I'll sell to somebody better or pay a trainer to ride and train for me.

If in the right hands this horse could go advanced, but with me only makes prelim. Thats fine. I want something that is high quality, that is bred for a job, and has the potential to do that job.

I've spent the last 5 years riding ottb with injuries, temperment or conformation problems, and its been fun. And I love my Tbs (and will continue to ride and own them). But now I am finally at the point in my life where I can afford to spend some money, and get something nice with some good jumper bloodines bred for a purpose.

And Megan I sent you an email, thanks for your offer to discuss bloodlines with me!

[pwynnnorman]

I want something that is high quality, that is bred for a job, and has the potential to do that job.


Ah, well, Centuree, there you have it then: You are every performance horse breeder's dream client. Happy hunting!

[Holly Jeanne]

I'm not going to get into normal curves and standard deviations but, I bred two horses specifically for me as I had always wanted to raise my own. They are full siblings born one year apart. They are nothing alike. They have different personalities, different builds, different movements, and potentially different talents. The sire had a bunch on the ground to look at and I had seen the two previous of the mares offspring and her lines had some usually predictable qualities. The 5 yo is her mother in personality and movement with size and built closer to dad. The 4 yo is dad only in mom's size. Love them both. Neither are going to the olympics but I wasn't breeding for that. I was breeding for me! So, I'd say there certainly is a crap shoot aspect to it that careful selection can minimize but not completely eliminate.

[wildswan]

I want something that is high quality, that is bred for a job, and has the potential to do that job. ... now I am finally at the point in my life where I can afford to spend some money, and get something nice with some good jumper bloodines bred for a purpose.


I would approach this a little differently.



It appears that you have a pretty clear idea of what you want, and the amount of money you can spend to get it. The experience of breeding and raising your own foal to riding age, while it might be an added benefit, does not appear to be a high priority.



You seem willing to educate yourself and do your homework, whether about breeding your own, or buying a young horse. This in itself will greatly increase the odds in favor of you achieving your goal. (I am continually amazed by the number of people who breed and/or buy horses without learning much, if anything, about them first!)



There is a risk (call it crapshoot if you want) in everything related to breeding, raising, training and riding horses. However, in my opinion as a long time rider and breeder, the "probability" is greater that you will get closer to what you want with the money you are willing to spend (assuming you put the same effort into doing your homework) by buying the best young horse you can rather than trying to breed your own.

I have yet to produce an unbroke 2-3 yo that I could have sold for what it cost me to get it to that age. I'm not saying that all horses are sold at a loss, or that there aren't those individuals who make a profit in the breeding business. But I do know from experience that there are a million things that can go wrong from the moment you begin to think of breeding the mare to the time the offspring is ready to ride. And with each thing that goes wrong you add another bundle of money to the cost of producing your horse. This year alone we have spent over $2000 treating a septic foal, and over $5000 so far treating a yearling for complications following a "routine" castration. And the yearling is not out of the hospital yet!

So while I wouldn't give up breeding myself regardless of the risks; given your goal, I think you would be better off focusing your effort on finding the best young horse you can buy for your money.