spin-off on stallions who shorten a back

[JB]

Having my own short-backed horse, I have come to learn the difficulties in getting certain things done :rolleyes"

It seems that getting a shorter and shorter back is high priority to many folks these days. I know it's gotten prevalent in the Dressage world. There have been more than a few threads over there on the difficulties people have in getting real engagement from horses with short backs.

So, for those of you who are looking for stallions to shorten your mares' backs, just how long are those backs? I just wonder if "we" have gotten so used to seeing what is in vogue, short backs, that when we see a normal length back we think it's too long. Is that what's going on?

I'm not sure I've ever seen a thread here specifically looking for stallions who lengthen a back. Surely MOs don't ALL have mares whose backs scan 2 adjoining counties? :winkgrin:

So, on that note as well, who are some stallions who are known to throw a longer back? Pictures please :)

[Hillside H Ranch]

Interesting questions. I actually prefer a slightly longer back, as I feel that jumpers with longer backs generally have more scope. However, the mare that I mentioned in the last post has a long back-very, very long and when you look at her it is the first thing that you notice. But I agree that too short is detrimental, as well.

[Oakstable]

I have a mare with a short back. Photos in my blog. Look for the grey mare.

The reason for wanting a longer back for dressage is the horse can bend around a leg much easier.

My Riverman son out of my other Dutch mare, Mariah, is short backed and the upper level work will be harder for him because of it. Mariah is not short backed like her sister, Natasha.

[Home Again Farm]

I do not want to produce a truly short back, but I don't want to lengthen the back that a few of my girls have, if that makes sense. I agree that a moderately longer horse is more pleasant to ride and much easier to fit for a saddle. Also, keep in mind that a good broodie will have a longer back than her brother - makes more room for baby.

[Fairview Horse Center]

A longer backed horse is not a problem as long as you have a good loin connection. I MUCH prefer too long of a back, than too short. My stallions will shorten a long back to a medium level, which is what they are.

[not again]

Actually you want a hand and a thumb between the last rib and the pelvis in a dressage horse. Too short in the loins is what makes lateral work harder. Horses that are built square rather than rectangular have poorer balance in collection and are more difficult to keep down in the bridle. The swing of the leg in the stride from the hip is what determines the quality of the carrying capacity for true engagement. The more out the back, the less forward under the body, the poorer the ability to lower the haunches and propel the whole horse forward. Measuring the length of the back is too general to really evaluate the final result.;)

[JB]

Horses that are built square rather than rectangular have poorer balance in collection and are more difficult to keep down in the bridle. The swing of the leg in the stride from the hip is what determines the quality of the carrying capacity for true engagement.
Yes, and that is exactly the issue I have with my guy. But I always see threads looking for stallions who shorten the back. Where are the threads for stallion who either don't shorten, or who add length? If so many MOs are looking for shorten-the-back stallions, just how long are their mares' backs? That's what I'm really wondering.

Measuring the length of the back is too general to really evaluate the final result.;)
I agree - there is more to how the horse moves than the length of his back. I also see fairly often, in critique threads, where someone has said a horse has a long or short back, but they are being misled due to the length (or not) of the legs. Just because a horse is a tall rectangle does not automatically mean he has a short back, and just because he's a long rectangle does not automatically mean he has a long back. And just because there is a long, weak loin does not automatically mean there is a long back as well.

[goodmorning]

Well, for me the main thing with the long back is the weak loin :yes: Sure, not every long-backed stallion has a weak loin, but if the mare is truly long-backed (thinking intercontinental :lol: ), then if either has any loin weakness, it's much too big of a risk.

In addition, I really adore my TB mare's, particularly for the hunter's where a nice TB canter is unbeatable, however, they don't always have the best loin connection. My mare just happens to have a long back, the loin and the hind-end are great, but I still have that lingering weak-loin fear due to ancestry....so the actually long-backed WB stallion is out ;)

[JB]

goodmorning, so, when you are looking at stallions, do you go for the short-backed ones, or the ones with a "normal" length back?

[goodmorning]

Short to normal ;)

I tend to really inspect the offspring - if they have a solid hind-end and loin, then normal is fine, but if there's a question mark then I wont go there ;) But the same goes for the shorter-backed variety...and if they don't have a lot of offspring on the ground or I can't find picture's of the foals dams, then I look at the sire's parents....

[Silly Mommy]

It also depends what discipline you are breeding for:winkgrin:.

[Donella]

So, on that note as well, who are some stallions who are known to throw a longer back? Pictures please

Donnerhall and some sons.

[pintopiaffe]

well, square is good for baroque breeds... we want square vs. rectangular. Part of what makes 'em baroque. And those square baroques excel at collection, so I guess I'm not sure about the comment about collection being harder? Explain please? :D

[goodmorning]

For stallions with longer backs...

Apiro, a large assortment of Holstiener stallions that are phenomenal jumpers, agree with the Donnerhall comment, and a variety of stallions that I just adore ;) I'm sure I will come up with many more...

[pintopiaffe]

Been thinking on this... the other thing is, it seems to me, most folks LIKE a mare who is a tad long vs. a tad short. I know the Irish do as a rule, (at least as part of the old rules I have!) and I think others like to think it makes for easier foal carrying.

I think the 'standard' for mare is different than for stallion. No?

[Sassenach]

Been thinking on this... the other thing is, it seems to me, most folks LIKE a mare who is a tad long vs. a tad short. I know the Irish do as a rule, (at least as part of the old rules I have!) and I think others like to think it makes for easier foal carrying.

Yup :yes:

A lot of old time breeders I know will not fault a mare for having a long back.

'Mare's got to have room to carry a foal!' is what they say.

[JB]

well, square is good for baroque breeds... we want square vs. rectangular. Part of what makes 'em baroque. And those square baroques excel at collection, so I guess I'm not sure about the comment about collection being harder? Explain please? :D

A short-backed horse will be a tall rectangle though, not a square.

[facinated]

I feel that what counts is a strong back. I would rather ride a longer horse. They need to have muscle over the back behind the saddle. If there is a big gap between the last rib and the hip that area never gets strong enough.

[not again]

If the last rib and hip/pelvis are close to touching when a horse is standing still, it will have trouble flexing laterally (think half pass, shoulder in etc) and directly (think arching over a jump with great bascule, or flipping the hindend up and out to stretch over a wide oxer). A strong loin has not the same thing as a well-spaced rib to pelvis connection. The loin is over the back, the rib is on the side. A short loin tends to be stiff as well, in part because of the above mentioned related conformation issues.

[retrofit]

Another point to add: Most of your market is comprised of amateur women, and many ammies find it easier to put a shorter-backed horse together. (It requires less of a seat.) This may not matter for the purposes of selling FOALS but it will matter when a trial ride is in the works.

[facinated]

I can not think of a long wheel base horse I have ever had, where the last rib and hip were touching. My best horses, hunting, and show jumping have been no shorter than square, most slightly rectangular, with a strong muscular connection between the transmission(hind end) and the rest of the horse.

[FriesianX]

well, square is good for baroque breeds... we want square vs. rectangular. Part of what makes 'em baroque. And those square baroques excel at collection, so I guess I'm not sure about the comment about collection being harder? Explain please? :D

I was going to post the same exact comment ;)

My stallion is excellent at collection, his piaffe and passage are extraordinary, so I too don't understand the comment about difficult to collect? I actually think the shorter backed horse is EASIER to collect, especially for the typical adult ammie, middle aged, not in superior fitness woman rider (ME!).

And lateral work is pretty easy for him too - half pass is a breeze. Sometimes the SI HI and renvers don't LOOK as spectacular because of the shorter back, but the work is correct and the half pass flows nicely.

The problems I see with a shorter back (and I've ridden a few of these short boys now) is that they look less supple (and some of them ARE less supple - it is easier for them to lock up their backs) to the judge because there is less of an accordian to open and close. But they are actually quite easy to ride because, well, there is less to open and close :winkgrin:

And with a long backed horse, it is MUCH harder to get the back UP, so the hindquarters are usually trailing out behind unless the rider has the strength to push them under. Which means a GOOD and STRONG rider. And, often these horses are more sore in the back, saddles are hard to fit, and they just don't last as long, like people with bad backs, things start going physically wrong sooner in life.

Obviously, a medium backed horse is the ideal, there is always an ideal, right? But many (not all, but I see a lot of 'em - we call them Family Horses, you can fit a family on their back) of the horses out there are too long, and I think that is why people are looking to shorten some of the horse's backs. If I had the choice between too short or too long, I'd take too short.

By the way, I also agree, most of the mares are longer - to fit baby inside! You less often see short backed mares, Mother Nature wants them a little longer.

[Fairview Horse Center]

A short backed horse is in danger of having the rider bouncing on its loins. Short backed horses that are really long strided also over reach a lot.

Longer backed horses are not harder to ride and collect as long as they have a good loin connection.

[JB]

Obviously, a medium backed horse is the ideal, there is always an ideal, right? But many (not all, but I see a lot of 'em - we call them Family Horses, you can fit a family on their back) of the horses out there are too long, and I think that is why people are looking to shorten some of the horse's backs.

That's one reason in particular why I'm asking. Where are all these too-long backed horses? Do you have any pictures? I do agree you don't want too long, as obviously you don't want too short. There's a spectrum - too long, longer than ideal, ideal, shorter than ideal, and too short.

I just wonder if the "norm" has become 'shorter than ideal" and "too short", therefore when someone sees "ideal" or "longer than ideal", they think "wow, that's a long back", and are those the folks who are regularly looking for stallions to shorten the back?

Someone here, several months ago, posted a Gypsy Vanner horse with a VERY short back, as in, it would be hard pressed to find a pony or child's saddle to fit as there was simply nothing between wither and the loin. Several comments were made to the effect of "wow, nice short back!" :confused:

[not again]

Maybe it is an issue of semantics. There is a big difference between a short back and a short loin connection.
And yes, a short horse requires different (quicker) timing in comparison to a longer horse to keep the back up and swinging in piaffe and passage. Think of the strings and frets on a guitar. When you shorten the string with your fingers, your increase the pitch by raising the frequency of the vibration. In piaffe a horse shortens its base and lowers the quarters. In my experience it is much easier to tip short types too much and have the piaffe deteriorate as a result.

[FriesianX]

That's one reason in particular why I'm asking. Where are all these too-long backed horses? Do you have any pictures? I do agree you don't want too long, as obviously you don't want too short. There's a spectrum - too long, longer than ideal, ideal, shorter than ideal, and too short.

I just wonder if the "norm" has become 'shorter than ideal" and "too short", therefore when someone sees "ideal" or "longer than ideal", they think "wow, that's a long back", and are those the folks who are regularly looking for stallions to shorten the back?

Someone here, several months ago, posted a Gypsy Vanner horse with a VERY short back, as in, it would be hard pressed to find a pony or child's saddle to fit as there was simply nothing between wither and the loin. Several comments were made to the effect of "wow, nice short back!" :confused:


I see a lot of Dutch WBs around here that are really Looooooong. No, I don't have pics, and wouldn't post them if I did, since I don't have owner permission, but many are campaigned by big name trainers, and a few are stallions. I'm one of the minority who thinks it is unfair to post another person's horse without their permission! When you see them without saddle, it is shocking how long they are, but they are active, have good impulsion, and are ridden by very good riders. But, even when well ridden, they look to be "sagging" in the middle, and no average rider could get their hind ends under!

Please, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying all Dutch horses are long!

As for Vanners - I don't consider them dressage or sport horses, they aren't bred for riding, so as long as the driving rigging fits on them (and they are adorable driving horses), then all is good.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I do have a picture of the long-backed mare I referred to in my prior post, but I'm not a premium member, so can't post it here. If someone is really interested in seeing what I'm referring to, I can always email it! Just don't have time to up-load it to a picture sharing site and then post the link right now!

[JB]

I see a lot of Dutch WBs around here that are really Looooooong. No, I don't have pics, and wouldn't post them if I did, since I don't have owner permission, but many are campaigned by big name trainers, and a few are stallions. I'm one of the minority who thinks it is unfair to post another person's horse without their permission! When you see them without saddle, it is shocking how long they are, but they are active, have good impulsion, and are ridden by very good riders. But, even when well ridden, they look to be "sagging" in the middle, and no average rider could get their hind ends under!

Please, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying all Dutch horses are long!
No, I totally understand what you're saying :) However, if there are any publically standing stallions whom you consider to be looooong, could you give me names? I'll go look at Donnerhall as previously mentioned.

As for Vanners - I don't consider them dressage or sport horses, they aren't bred for riding, so as long as the driving rigging fits on them (and they are adorable driving horses), then all is good.
Oh, I know, I just used that example because several folks thought it was a NICE short back. There was NO back! LOL

[goodmorning]

Apiro (who I am a very big fan of) is a bit long. Capitol I is a great example - obviously not lacking in the jumping department. Landadel is another one who I love, but is a bit long Interestingly enough, he was rejected from his first stallion approval because he was too light and with too much blood. Clearly, he made up for that 'shortcoming' :lol: :winkgrin:

[pintopiaffe]

Random thought... but why is it that something that is 'dissed' in one breed becomes coveted in another? (referring back to JB's original question, are we trying to shorte TOO much?)

I'm thinking that 15 years ago or so I had a very BNT tell me that my 1/2 Arab would never make it to FEI because she was half-arab and had one less vertebrae etc. etc. Same BNT saw her in the pasture--not knowing it was her--and thought she was lovely and Anglo-TRAK or some such. :lol:

Is it just the cyclical nature of trends? I think the Arab has much to contribute to many breeding programs. Meg Hamilton said of my guy that he was 'the type of horse you see in Europe for breed improvement.' At the time I didn't entirely understand that. I'm getting a glimmer these days.

Had a fascinating if tangential discussion today with some very well versed DVM's and STB race folks about Eight Belles and Big Brown and what exactly ARE we breeding for... I think it relates... what is FASHION and what is FUNCTION?

[JB]

Exactly pp :)

Years ago many (most?) upper level dressage horses seemed to be squares. Now most seem to be tall rectangles. And lots of flashy movement that seems to be getting rewarded over truly correct movement. Hmmm... ;)

[FriesianX]

No, I totally understand what you're saying :) However, if there are any publically standing stallions whom you consider to be looooong, could you give me names? I'll go look at Donnerhall as previously mentioned.

Oh, I know, I just used that example because several folks thought it was a NICE short back. There was NO back! LOL

I went over to KWPN's stallion listing - and all the pictures are pretty carefully picked for an angle that doesn't show the length stallions' back! Went to a few SO websites, and NO straight on conformation shots for the stallions I've seen at shows. So no, I can't even send you to a conformation picture, because there aren't any :eek:

By the way, these stallions are all fancy movers, doing quite well in the competition world, so obviously, they can perform.

[RP]

I have ridden horses that are square and I have ridden horses that are rectangular and the rectangular horses are by far the most comfortable and the most correct. While square horses appear to do better at collection, it is harder for them to truly "sit" because their loin connection is shorter and doesn't "bend" as much or as easily. They do not get the true lift from the haunches. I think its a matter of preference - what you like to ride and what you don't. For dressage, I believe the rectangular horse is more correct but I wonder if for jumping you would want a shorter backed horse.

Also, i think some people are mistaking a long back with a long loin connection. There is a difference.

[FriesianX]

I have ridden horses that are square and I have ridden horses that are rectangular and the rectangular horses are by far the most comfortable and the most correct. While square horses appear to do better at collection, it is harder for them to truly "sit" because their loin connection is shorter and doesn't "bend" as much or as easily. They do not get the true lift from the haunches. I think its a matter of preference - what you like to ride and what you don't. For dressage, I believe the rectangular horse is more correct but I wonder if for jumping you would want a shorter backed horse.

Also, i think some people are mistaking a long back with a long loin connection. There is a difference.


Loin connection is all part of the equation, for sure! But I disagree, the square horses can sit - if they have the loin for it. I can't really post pictures of other horses, but when you look at my own stallion, who is the square baroque type, he can sit and piaffe and passage with the best of them! If you look at some of the other nice Baroques (such as Rociero or Invasor) they can really sit too. Or, look at the SRS stallions who show the ultimate in collection, and are square horses.

I actually think many of the big, long Warmbloods are NOT as correct, but they are so elastic and showy in their movement, people are taken in by that. They really aren't sitting, look at a still picture of them, take away the flashy movement, and many of them are even croup high. They excel in the extended movements, which some of our square horses aren't as good at.