She didn't make it home, we lost her. :(

[aspenlucas]

I have a pony mare that aborted a foal last Thursday 6 days ago early. Foal was born out in the field. Placenta was still attached to foal, like along the hair line as it was 2-3 months early. Pony mare has been fine all week. Tonight she goes off her feed and spiked a temperature of 104.5*. I gave her bute. She is drinking and pooping normal poop. But not interested in her grain or hay right now. I am going back to see if her temp dropped. My concern is a piece of retained placenta. She has no discharge and her feet are not hot. What other signs would she have? I'm hoping she just has a bug or something keeping a close eye on her. No one has come or gone off that farm all winter, so it would be odd that someone brought something in.

[Sugarbrook]

Just some random thoughts. What did your vet think when she aborted the baby? Did you find any placenta to check? Was is all there?

Has your mare had any discharge? Anything different?

Have you called your vet when she spiked the temp, and what did he/she say?

This could be real serious, so be agressive in finding out what is wrong. JMHO>

[aspenlucas]

Waiting for a call back. The temp started at 8PM it's up to 106* now even after bute. I'm waititng for her to call back, I don't think this looks good for this pony mare. The placenta was attached to the foal and ripped so was impossible as it was dirty etc to see if it was all there. No discharge or anything.

[Sugarbrook]

This is an emergency situation. Does your vet understand this?
Was she not responsive regarding the placenta on the first day? This sounds like a disaster and your vet needs to be responding.

[amdfarm]

Sorry to hear about your loss and your pony mare. :(

I agree w/ Sandy though. This is very serious and your vet needs to know that. A temp that high is nothing to mess around w/. It sounds like she's got a raging infection brewing now.

Jingles and (((HUGS))) to you. Please keep us posted.

[Sugarbrook]

Yes, please update us. I am not trying to be a pain or a pest, I am just worried and know how fast these things can turn into a complete flaming disaster.

[amdfarm]

That goes for me, too. Simply worried about your pony.

[Equine Reproduction]

My fear would be that she has retained a piece of the placenta. Spiking that high of a fever would have me panicking. Hopefully, you've managed to get your vet out and have a handle on things. Unfortunately, just giving some bute is probably not going to be sufficient.

Good luck!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Hillside H Ranch]

Definitely an emergency; hoping your vet is on top of it now.
If not, it might be worth icing the feet/getting some frog support on now, while you wait.

[aspenlucas]

The vet is pretty far away, so she couldn't come right out. Two options, banamine on top of bute or trailer to an equine facility, closest two hours away. I gave banamine first. 8CCs, she's a small pony, orally. Within 30 minutes she began eating hay, and I took her temp 102, then waited 15 minutes and 101. I'm headed to the barn again to keep checking her. she's sick of me, she drank water, pooped and was eating hay while I was there. Is it possible she could have a virus? She has no discharge nasally or vaginally. No heat in her feet. Nothing has changed for her, hay, etc. I'm wondering if she had a slight colic. So far so good. Believe me an hour ago, I was ready to bury a hole. Keep jingling. I've been praying!

Yes, please update us. I am not trying to be a pain or a pest, I am just worried and know how fast these things can turn into a complete flaming disaster.

[aspenlucas]

My fear would be that she has retained a piece of the placenta. Spiking that high of a fever would have me panicking. Hopefully, you've managed to get your vet out and have a handle on things.

Would a retained placenta take 6 days to show up? With no other signs, normal pony and six days later pony with fever? Yes I am panicking, but the fever also came down quickly with banamine. So I'm wondering if that would happen with retained placenta and then it goes back up. As I said right now vet is out of range and my other option is clinic. Right now pony has temp of 101 and is eating.

[Equine Reproduction]

The vet is pretty far away, so she couldn't come right out. Two options, banamine on top of bute or trailer to an equine facility, closest two hours away. I gave banamine first. 8CCs, she's a small pony, orally. Within 30 minutes she began eating hay, and I took her temp 102, then waited 15 minutes and 101. I'm headed to the barn again to keep checking her. she's sick of me, she drank water, pooped and was eating hay while I was there. Is it possible she could have a virus? She has no discharge nasally or vaginally. No heat in her feet. Nothing has changed for her, hay, etc. I'm wondering if she had a slight colic. So far so good. Believe me an hour ago, I was ready to bury a hole. Keep jingling. I've been praying!

Problem is you are treating a symptom but not addressing the cause. It's like taking pain meds when you've broken an arm. You feel better after they kick in, but if there's a raging infection, the reprieve will be short lived. If she were my mare, I'd load her up and take her to an equine facility. Good luck!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[blton9th]

If it were my pony, I'd be on my way to the equine hospital. A fever that spiked to 106 would just throw me into a tail spin.:cry: Probably not what you wanted to hear!
When can your Vet make it to your farm? An hour or two, Thursday am?
Glad the fever came down some. Fingers crossed that it does not jump back up when banamine is out of her system.
lots of jingles

[amdfarm]

Glad you got the fever down and she's eating again, but I agree w/ Kathy. And yes, when can the vet be there to look at her? I think she needs flushed and put on a/b sooner rather than later and would trailer her also.

And like blton9th mentioned, once the banamine wears off it may spike again, so you'll have to keep checking on her and probably have to give more banamine before morning again.

Still jingling.

[Equine Reproduction]

Would a retained placenta take 6 days to show up?

It's definitely unusual, but yes. We had a mare delivered to us a few years ago that was 11 days post foaling. When I ultrasounded her, she had a bit more fluid than I would prefer (gross understatement <smile>)...so I gave her a little bit of oxytocin. Her foal was really, really constipated and was straining terribly, so I had walked back up to the lab to get an enema. When I came back down, the mare had dropped out a liver sized chunk of placenta. No one believed that it was placenta and we shipped it off to the path lab as by rights, she should have been dead. It was and she "did" survive, but in answer to your question, yes it can happen.

With no other signs, normal pony and six days later pony with fever? Yes I am panicking, but the fever also came down quickly with banamine. So I'm wondering if that would happen with retained placenta and then it goes back up. As I said right now vet is out of range and my other option is clinic. Right now pony has temp of 101 and is eating.

It's impossible to know what's going on from reading internet posts. I think most of us are in agreement and would error on the side of caution. Are you willing to assume that she's just got a bug and her fever has broken? It is your call. Good luck!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Sugarbrook]

Any update this AM?

[ann kitchel]

Update? Worried people out here..............

[blton9th]

would love an update too! Iam nervous for you since you have not updated. Hoping for the best for your girl!

[amdfarm]

I was wondering the same. Do please let us know when you get a chance.

[aspenlucas]

I was wondering the same. Do please let us know when you get a chance.

I am sorry I have had a very busy day. Flower's temp stayed at 101* all night and morning. I had a call into the large animal clinic in Sunbury and I took her in this afternoon. Her temp went to 105* again, but I didn't give her anything per their instructions. I took her in and it was down to 102.9. Still high but not scary high. She is on IV and they gave her a teeny dose of banamine. They also infused her and cultured her. She did not ultrasound to look for placenta as she is pretty certain that is what it is, said the risk to the mare as she is so small is great. Flower is handling it all like a trooper. They feel the prognosis is good but she will be there three days at least for the three days of treatment. The clinic is 45 minutes away so not too bad. She was such a good girl. She's sick I realize but luckily she is cooperating. I'll update as I get more news. Keep jingling for her. She needs it. I had a horrid day.....the worst luck trying to get a mare shipped to KY for a client. Getting her health papers, she had gotten in a fight with this new vet I was using and the vet refused to come see Flower last night because she didn't like this client. It was a mess, par for the course for this vet. So I had to trailer that mare over to her vet clinic, got a flat tire on the way. So we had to change that before trailering Flower over. Then I backed my truck into my friends car. I'm glad Flower is in good hands and I'm done with this day. Tomorrow HAS to be better! Thanks for the jingles guys! I'll have to find a picture of Flower, most of them are her as a baby, she is a 3/4 Welsh out of a Liseter Brilliant Comedian mare by Rocksfords Greywing

[amdfarm]

No need to apologize. Sorry to hear you had such a craptastic day!! (((HUGS)))

The vet wouldn't come and see YOUR mare because she was mad at your client? That's just wrong, IMHO, but glad you got Flower to the clinic and things are looking up. I tried to find her on your website and couldn't, now I know why. How big is she?

Continued Jingles!! Have a better day tomorrow, you deserve it after today. :)

[aspenlucas]

The vet wouldn't come and see YOUR mare because she was mad at your client? That's just wrong, IMHO, but glad you got Flower to the clinic and things are looking up. I tried to find her on your website and couldn't, now I know why. How big is she?

Continued Jingles!! Have a better day tomorrow, you deserve it after today. :)

Yep that is right. When I took her to the large animal clinic two vets asked me who I was having problems with and they didn't need to guess, the one was her roommate in college! Small world. Yep she got mad that the client bothered her so much and said she would not come out for the pony because of the client. She thought I was lying and was calling for the client about her coggins at 11Pm at night. Hello I have better things to do! Flower is about 12.1 hands now. She is a small pony. She is pretty cute. Husband is not so sure she's worth the money we are putting into her but really we've been fortunate with healthy horses. I'll update as I get information from the vet. I'm getting ready to have a nice sleep. I had 3 foals in 5 days and that was within the last 8 days, that is not including Flowers foal (4th) so I'm pretty pooped!

[amdfarm]

Yep that is right. When I took her to the large animal clinic two vets asked me who I was having problems with and they didn't need to guess, the one was her roommate in college! Small world. Yep she got mad that the client bothered her so much and said she would not come out for the pony because of the client. She thought I was lying and was calling for the client about her coggins at 11Pm at night. Hello I have better things to do! Flower is about 12.1 hands now. She is a small pony. She is pretty cute. Husband is not so sure she's worth the money we are putting into her but really we've been fortunate with healthy horses. I'll update as I get information from the vet. I'm getting ready to have a nice sleep. I had 3 foals in 5 days and that was within the last 8 days, that is not including Flowers foal (4th) so I'm pretty pooped!

Unreal!! Oh yes, those emergency calls at 11pm for health papers and coggins, good lord! :eek: Hopefully the other vets understood your frustration about the situation. I think all ponies are cute! :winkgrin: Our pony is 11.2hh and her daughter (2yo) is 12.2hh.
I would be tired, too. On May 30th, my friend's last two mares of the year foaled 4 1/2 hours apart. That was a busy night, but both foaled at a decent time w/ good weather. First foal was around 6pm and the last was around 10:30pm. Huge fillies and thankfully fairly uneventful except for having to help pull the last one.
Get some sleep and keep us posted. Love her name, btw. Very cute.

[YankeeLawyer]

Major jingles for your pony! I am so glad you made it to the clinic with her.

And I really hope you are going to fire the vet who refused to come out for Flower in an emergency based on some professed dislike of your client. If it were me, I would have some fairly choice words for her. Contrast that with the many vets who consistently go all out to help the horses.

[Sugarbrook]

Thanks for the update. I will keep on doing major Jingles for Flower. Sounds like you have your hands full. What a jerk of a vet!!!

[aspenlucas]

Love her name, btw. Very cute.

BTW...her registered name is Empty Pockets. Feels sort of fitting this morning. ;)

[aspenlucas]

Major jingles for your pony! I am so glad you made it to the clinic with her.

And I really hope you are going to fire the vet who refused to come out for Flower in an emergency based on some professed dislike of your client. If it were me, I would have some fairly choice words for her. Contrast that with the many vets who consistently go all out to help the horses.

Well the great thing is.... I found this out when I wasn't in the middle of a colic. I know Flower is/was critical, but yes this vet has told ME she won't do any more of my work based on this client. I can't believe it, but both vets at the new clinic asked who it was and were not at all surprised, and I will never bad mouth this vet, but if someone asks me I will tell them what happened, nothing horrid, just the facts. She had the balls to say yesterday, why do you get so upset and cry over me not coming out? I'm like to you realize how sick that pony is! And then to bend over backwards for this client? But not me? Ugh.....I was just glad to be rid of the clients horse and the client at that point. But Sunbury Animal Hospital is great. It's a little drive but the vet lives right there on the farm and they are SO nice. I can't believe the way I was treated as a drive in first time. I really hope this is a new awesome relationship. Should get an update on Flower soon!

[YankeeLawyer]

Seriously, if that vet didn't even recognize how potentially serious the situation was, you really don't want her as a vet anyway. It can be a lot worse than *most* colics.

Sending more jingles for Flower's speedy recovery. I love her name also, btw.

[Home Again Farm]

That vet's behavior was shameful and completely unprofessional. Good to be rid of them! Hope the little mare pulls through well!:yes:

[aspenlucas]

That vet's behavior was shameful and completely unprofessional. Good to be rid of them! Hope the little mare pulls through well!:yes:

Well with bad vets there are good vets and the clinic I stumbled upon yesterday is 30 miles away, they will take any emergency at any time. They are clearly in it for the horse. I just keep saying, could you imagine if pediatricians were like that. "Oh your daughter didn't hold still for the shots, NEXT KID!" She complained because the mare she did a health cert of for the client was ansy about her temp being taken. She made me put her in stocks out in the middle of a grass field with green head flies all over. I'm just very thankful that I found Sunbury Animal Hospital and Flower is there, and no I won't use this vet again. I won't bad mouth her in the area unless someone asks me and then I will tell them the facts. The sad thing is this is her second round. I gave her a chance again before. My farrier said 'why do you do that, why do you give people second chances all the time?" I just feel people can change, so why not, but not at my horses expense. :) No update yet. I don't want to be a bother and I know they would call if there was bad news.

[Laurierace]

This has always been a fear of mine so whenever I get a new client I have the vet bill me and I pay it and then add it to the client's bill. I am afraid that they might not pay the vet and then the vet wouldn't want to do my work because I was the one who authorized it. Luckily I have never had a problem over the years, but its a tough habit to let go of at this point.
I hope the pony is on the mend and a great new vet is on the job from here on out.

[aspenlucas]

Called the vet clinic, her temp has been good, she is munching wet hay and drinking and grazing. She is perkier they feel she is headed in the right direction and no signs of founder! :) So I'll hear more later but for now they will just continue the IVs and antibiotics!

[amdfarm]

Empty Pockets... cute!! Maybe she knew something you didn't when you named her that. :D

Wonderful update. I'm glad she seems to be on the mend.

Poo Poo on that other vet and I'm glad you found another clinic w/ caring vets that will be there for the horse, as you said.

Continued Jingles for Flower!!

[blton9th]

I am so sorry you had such a rotten day yesterday! Sounds like one of those days that you just should have stayed in bed.:lol:
So glad to hear Flower is doing much better.

Your EX vet sounds like a real P.O.S.:mad::mad: No other way to describe someone who doesn't give a rats A%% about a sick pony. What goes around comes around! Hope it bites her in the rear!;)

So here's to Flower power!

[aspenlucas]

Your EX vet sounds like a real P.O.S.:mad::mad: No other way to describe someone who doesn't give a rats A%% about a sick pony. What goes around comes around! Hope it bites her in the rear!;)

ROFLMAO!!!!

[aspenlucas]

and I can pick her up tomorrow morning at 8AM. She is doing VERY well. I am so excited to go get her and see her. My daughter Taylor, 4 1/2, is very excited too.

[YankeeLawyer]

That is great!! She sounds like a cool pony.

[aspenlucas]

It's like a bad dream. I still can't completely comprehend what happened. As I said yesterday I was told Flower was doing better, we could pick her up this morning at 8-8:30AM. We were running late and got there at 8:40 to a vet tech holding Flower looking concerned. Flower was uncomfortable. Her temp had gone to 104 during the night but a low dose of banamine brought it down. Flower had a tarry poop that night and this morning she was uncomfy but standing. She did lay down while we were waiting for the vet, but lay quietly, only tried to roll over once.

Vet came and took a look. Flower's gums were pale but she was standing. He had her taken out and hosed and checked her over quite a bit and talked to us a bit. He felt one of two things the antibiotics were causing ulcers or stress was causing ulcers. She also may have been in her foal heat and cramping. He felt we were dealing with the beginnings of ulcers or stress and the best remedy was to take her home and for us to give her the tagamet (sp?) and Karafate (sp?) along with a tube of medicine to put good bacteria back into her gut. It was like probiotics plus a bunch of stuff. She was standing in front of the fan resting a hind leg. Every once in a while she would start panting for like 45 seconds and it would go away. Vet said could be a small onset of pain. He really felt it was best she go home, she's never been off the farm, so the stress was not helping.

We loaded her up into the back of the stock trailer (6 X 8 foot stall) and took off down the road. Now thankfully my husband was very hungry and asked to stop at Mcdonalds. We pulled over and I ran back to see her standing. She rubbed up against the side wall, pressed her head into the front door, laid down and started gasping for breaths. She didn't flail, she just laid there....gasping...then twitching. We called the vet hospital and told them we were coming back. I pretty much knew she was dying. Hubby drove and I sat in the front stall watching her. My fear was her flailing or getting cast. She never did. She just laid there. I sat next to the door where her head was and sang and talked to her and prayed a lot. I didn't pray for a miracle though. I prayed that the quickest outcome for her would happen. I can't explain it but a peace came over me and I stood up and looked and it appeared she was gone. She was by the time we got back to the clinic. The vet tech could not believe it. She called the vet and he was just silent. I can only imagine she had a perforation and handled the pain like a true trooper. We took her home and are burying her in the hay field. I am just in shock that a pony was doing so well only to revert to death. Most likely it was the antibiotics she was on causing damage with the stress of her last week.

[genevieveg17]

OMG, I am so sorry. Poor little Empty Pockets.
Hugs to you and your family.

Godspeed Flower

[spacely]

Oh no. I am so sorry. My condolences. :cry:

[Lesley Feakins]

I am so sorry, truly sorry....however, I would need to know what happened to your sweet pony to cause her death.

My deepest condolences.

[Home Again Farm]

I am so very sorry. :cry: Poor little girl.

[aspenlucas]

I am so sorry, truly sorry....however, I would need to know what happened to your sweet pony to cause her death.

Originally they felt the retained a piece of placenta from a premature foaling, foal born dead 2-3 months early. They treated her for such and she was responding. What caused her death today when the vet released her with medication to give orally and literally a dead pony 15 minutes later I don't think I can speculate. I would say internal bleeding by the looks of things and the tarry poop she had coming out when she died. At this time I will not open her up to find out. The little angel has been through enough and she will just get a proper burial in the hay field.

[ThrghbrdJmpr]

I am so sorry about little Flower. She was so sweet and cute :( I know you did the best you could do for her and she is at peace now.

[hluing]

I am so sorry for your loss. What a terrible thing to happen. So sad. In my limited experience, they can be quite stoic when bleeding out and appear not as sick as they really are. They go into shock. I am so sorry you had to go through that:(

[aspenlucas]

I am so sorry about little Flower. She was so sweet and cute :( I know you did the best you could do for her and she is at peace now.

This is Flower as a 2 month old baby. I don't have any current pictures of her on my blog or on the net.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/954/2003/1600/FlowerLeft882.1.jpg

[Ladybug Hill]

How terribly devastating. I am just in shock and tears. I just couldn't believe when I saw this update.

Will be thinking of you.

[Norcrest]

I am so sorry...how absolutely heartbreaking. May Flower run painfree over the rainbow bridge

[Sugarbrook]

Oh, and I was so happy when you posted she was coming home. I, as you know, have followed this from your first post. I can't tell you how sad I am for you, and for little Flower. I guess I would do the same thing......bring her home to bury her with no more invasion into her sweet body. You did all you could. It just wasnt meant to be. I am truly sorry.

[STF]

Maria,
Im sorry.... This has to be hard. But you tried all you could and did the best for her.
Hugs,
LaNet

[VirginiaBred]

I He really felt it was best she go home, she's never been off the farm, so the stress was not helping.

I would have been all over this comment in a NY minute.

I am so sad and sorry about your mare.

[Fenway]

I'm so sorry to hear about your mare.
Godspeed, Flower.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Oh, my! How incredibly sad.

[pintopiaffe]

I am so, so sorry. I'd been following this, and didn't expect this outcome.

It's possible too that she had a very small tear from the reproductive tract into the colon. It's not uncommon. One of the mares bred to my stallion one year did, and her problems did not show up right away. It was 10 days or more. They found it when they palped... which of course you couldn't do because of the pony's size.

No matter what though, you tried your best. You MUST know that. You did all you could. And you were there with her at the end. It is the best we can do.

Godspeed Empty Pockets. :cry:

[EquineLVR]

Huge hugs to you -what a terrible loss...

RIP Flower and Godspeed..

[tullyleague]

I'm so sorry. :(

[MagicRoseFarm]

really sorry for your loss

[CJ82Sky]

I'm so sorry to hear. She was a lucky pony to have you with her til the end. It sounds like you did everything you could.

[amdfarm]

Oh crap, Maria!! That just sucks and then some. This was not the post I was expecting after seeing she was coming home. :sadsmile:

My heart breaks for you and your family. I'm so so sorry it didn't end up as everyone had anticipated, but you did all you could for her and was w/ her until the end, as someone else said. She left the world knowing how loved and cared for she was.

Godspeed Flower.

(((HUGS)))

[rideagoldenpony]

Poor little Flower. I'm so, so sorry. :cry:

[tuckawayfarm]

I'm so sorry to read this :cry: She was obviously much loved. RIP Flower.

[LockeMeadows]

OMG, I am crying for you. I thought she was going in the right direction and then I saw your post. Godspeed little mare.

[avezan]

I am so sorry for your loss. I was very happy to read the update that you were picking her up. Godspeed Flower.

[misita]

I'm so sorry for your loss. I've been following the thread too and was completely shocked by the outcome.

Godspeed little Flower

[YankeeLawyer]

I am so very sorry for your loss. I know what I am about to say is going to be unpopular with some, but I really don't think this was simply a case of poor luck, or a situation that could not be saved. Based on your description of events, I think two vets -- at two different practices -- really let you and your mare down, and it is just outrageous. How is it that the mare was supposedly improving if she was so stressed from being away from home? Usually horses are stressed when they first get to a new place, and then settle in -- or not. It makes no sense that all of a sudden, right at the end of her stay, she would be visibly crashing because she was homesick. That has to be one of the most BS diagnoses I have ever heard, when confronted with the symptoms she was exhibiting.

I apologize if that sounds harsh, because I certainly do not want to do anything but give the OP the hugest hug. But I am incredibly frustrated that despite your best efforts to do everything for your dear pony, these professionals let you down like that.

[coriander]

I am so very sorry for your loss. RIP Flower.

[shea'smom]

I am so sorry to read this. I was glad to see you were bringing her home :no:
I bet she was comforted to have you with her at the end.

[shakeytails]

May Flower rest in peace. Maybe she'll meet up with Mel and her foal, who I lost Memorial Day weekend. I feel your pain. Many hugs to you....

[aspenlucas]

I apologize if that sounds harsh, because I certainly do not want to do anything but give the OP the hugest hug. But I am incredibly frustrated that despite your best efforts to do everything for your dear pony, these professionals let you down like that.

I do agree with you to some point. The first vet's refusal was wrong. I think the vets at the animal clinic did the best they could. I think in the end that either the stress, antibiotics or infection caused the internal bleeding. Had they been proactive, I think we could have saved her yes. At the point she was showing signs this morning and things went downhill fast, I don't think the outcome could have changed. The odd things was as fast as things were going downhill, the pony was very stoic. I believe the dose of karophate (sp?) 25 minutes before her death may have eased some of the pain? I'm just speculating as I can't reiterate how QUIETLY she left me. I've never had this happen before and I am thankful to God that she didn't thrash around at all. I think doctors make mistakes, but they try their best. I am the mother of three daughters. My first daughter was stillborn. There were no signs and it was something that just happened. Even after an autopsy nothing was found. Doctors are human and do make mistakes. To me the difference is an HONEST mistake and a MALICIOUS mistake. I think the 1st vet intentionally did not want to help the pony and the 2nd vet maybe misdiagnosed. And unfortunately I am over 3 hours from something like New Bolton or Cornell. But yes I do agree with you to some point, and I appreciate that hug! :)

[misita]

I have to agree with YL that it seems terribly tragic and irresponsible that the vet let her go home. She had to have some other signs going on in addition to stress.

But Aspenlucas, I completely appreciate your attitude that the vet was acting in good faith and made a stupid decision. My first child was born profoundly autistic and has mild cerebral palsey too. I had a tremendously bad delivery. She was in the birth canal for almost 10 hours. So many people say I should sue. But I feel my Dr.'s were acting in very good faith. It was a terrible situation, it went poorly. But I'll never know if my daughter's disabilities were the result of a bad delivery or if perhaps, the bad delivery were a result of a baby who was already having problems. But I don't feel my Dr.'s were negligent. Would they do something different now? Probably, but that was 20 years ago and everything always makes more sence in hindsight.

What I wouldn't and couldn't get past is the first vets unwillingness to come because she didn't like your client. That's horrendous.

Hugs from me too. This has been a rough year for many.

[YankeeLawyer]

Had they been proactive, I think we could have saved her yes. At the point she was showing signs this morning and things went downhill fast, I don't think the outcome could have changed.

But Aspenlucas, it is the vet's JOB to be proactive.

My first daughter was stillborn. There were no signs and it was something that just happened. Even after an autopsy nothing was found. Doctors are human and do make mistakes.

That is so very sad. Respectfully, though, here there were signs - not just one, but several, any one of them alone a major warning flag and combined, not consistent with a diagnosis of possible ulcers. I am not even a vet and know that based on my experience as an owner. There is just no excuse here.


To me the difference is an HONEST mistake and a MALICIOUS mistake. I think the 1st vet intentionally did not want to help the pony and the 2nd vet maybe misdiagnosed.

The first vet.. agreed. Good God that is one sorry excuse for a vet. Regarding the second one, the fact of the matter is that the vet is a licensed professional, and has an obligation to meet a standard of care expected for his industry. Based on your description, the decision to send the pony home, and diagnosis of possible ulcers with the symptoms she had, was utter incompetence. "He tried, but was incompetent," is just not acceptable. The standard for negligence -- let alone gross negligence -- does not require malice. It has nothing to do with malice. It has a whole lot to do with whether the vet's actions were *reasonable* under the circumstances (and for gross negligence, whether the actions were reckless). And just for some perspective, I am not one that relishes criticizing vets. To the contrary, I absolutely adore my vets and am forever grateful to them for the hard work they put in to help my horses, and understand that their jobs are far from easy. But I just cannot get past stories like Flower's.

Losing a pony is so horrible and sad that I am sure that you just want to honor her memory and move on. That would be completely understandable. But I think I would be remiss if I did not point out that both vets let you down, very seriously, and that it is inexcusable. This is not a case of no warning signs, or mistaking a serious condition for something similar but benign that happened to mimic the same symptoms.

I am so sad for you. And if I have a filly foal next year I am going to give her the barn name Flower because I just love that name, and as I said, Flower sounds like she was a really neat pony.

[Blacktree]

Wow. I am so sorry to hear about your loss. :(

[aspenlucas]

I am so sad for you. And if I have a filly foal next year I am going to give her the barn name Flower because I just love that name, and as I said, Flower sounds like she was a really neat pony.
Since my "F" year won't be for 24 more years. That would be neat if you did that. Now I am trying to think of a name for her 1/2 brother Hunter that would honor her as a show name. I don't want it to be obvious it's to honor Flower but I want a hidden meaning. Any suggestions?

[YankeeLawyer]

Since my "F" year won't be for 24 more years. That would be neat if you did that. Now I am trying to think of a name for her 1/2 brother Hunter that would honor her as a show name. I don't want it to be obvious it's to honor Flower but I want a hidden meaning. Any suggestions?

Does his name have to start with a particular letter?

[aspenlucas]

Does his name have to start with a particular letter?

Nope :) nickname is
hunter

[YankeeLawyer]

Nope :) nickname is
hunter

How about Kingly Coronet? It is the name of a rare flower. Coronet alone can mean a noble crown, or be associated with a crown of flowers. And, there was a musical a few years ago that was critically acclaimed called The Last Empress, in which there is a scene called The Flower Coronet Dance. The musical is about a famous empress who was reputed to be the most charismatic in Korean history.

[Equine Reproduction]

While I agree that the first vet's behavior was unprofessional and neglectful, I don't believe that one can fault the second vet for a misdiagnoses or for not being proactive. It truly sounded to me like the mare had retained a portion of the placenta as stated in my original post. By the time it was recognized that there indeed was a problem, the mare could very well have been past the point of return. While she may have rallied briefly, I think it's probably a bit unfair to assume that the vet facility is at fault for not "saving" her. Anyone who has dealt with a case of septicemia knows that the outcome is usually not positive. There truly reaches a point that there isn't a whole lot more that one can do! It truly is unfortunate that the outcome wasn't what everyone had hoped for, but I also think that considering how long post foaling it was, it also would be nothing short of a miracle if the little mare "had" survived :(.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[grayarabpony]

I'm very sorry for your loss.

It's true that the poor mare was probably past the point of no return, but I'm still shocked they sent her home when she was crashing.

[blton9th]

Aspenlucas, I am so sorry. My heart goes out to you and your family. I hope your 4 yr old daughter is hanging in there.:cry:
I am glad Flower was with you in the end.

I can only hope your EX vet is paid back 10 fold. :mad: I can only imagine the sick feeling you must have felt knowing she wouldn't get off her can to treat your sick pony.:mad::mad::mad: Perhaps in a couple of days you can call her/write and let her know of the outcome.
Please know you did all you could for Flower.

[YankeeLawyer]

By the time it was recognized that there indeed was a problem, the mare could very well have been past the point of return. While she may have rallied briefly, I think it's probably a bit unfair to assume that the vet facility is at fault for not "saving" her. Anyone who has dealt with a case of septicemia knows that the outcome is usually not positive. There truly reaches a point that there isn't a whole lot more that one can do! http://www.equine-reproduction.com

With all due respect, I don't know any vet who would have cleared her to go home with those symptoms, let alone actively encouraged her return home as an Rx for what was clearly a serious issue that had nothing to do with possible ulcers. Had the vet kept her at the clinic, and done something, that would be different. But he did not. I truly don't think I am being unfair in my assessment. I am a generous and forgiving person by nature, but the description of events here is beyond the pale. FWIW, I described the situation to three different horsepeople whom I respect, in chronological order, i.e., without disclosing the outcome upfront. When I got to the part about the horse being sent home, every single one was dumbfounded.

As I indicated, I have deep respect for vets generally, and even deeper respect for my own in particular. But I will not make excuses or mince words for people who are incompetent. Anyway, let's move on, as I believe the OP can decide for herself how best to handle this.

And we need a showname for young Hunter. So COTHers, more names, please!

[LotsofSlots]

I am sorry for your loss. Such a horrible way to happen to go there thinking she was better. I am trying to think of a good flower name but they are all so feminine.

[amdfarm]

I have to admit, I had a lot of anger towards that first vet when I read you had lost Flower!! Her not coming only delayed treatment even longer, which may or may not have changed the outcome, but still. I'd been LIVID w/ that woman and poor excuse for a vet. :mad: Sorry!!

Okay, names. When I first thought of a masculine flower type name, I thought of Lotus right away. But before that, I thought Pocket Book, corny, I know. Then I did some searching...

Padma (Hindi for Lotus flower)
Zahur (Egyptian for flower)
and last but not least... Blodeuyn (Welsh for flower) which I think would fit him perfectly. If I only knew how it's pronounced exactly (have an idea... blow doon?)

(((HUGS)))

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I'm so sorry for your loss. I've just read the whole thread and am at a loss for words. Godspeed, little Flower. Hugs to you, Maria.

[Foxtrot's]

Your writings were so hopeful through the thread, and then your sadness and words at the end made tears come. So much for you to come to terms with. Hugs, anyway. Dear brave little Flower.

[Molly Malone]

So very sorry for your loss

[Blonde Filly]

So sorry to hear this..she is over the rainbow now in greener pastures with all the other COTH horses that have crossed over the bridge!!! :sadsmile:

[witherbee]

So sorry - what a sad situation and she seemed to be such a sweet pony. That picture of her is darling. I agree that teh 2nd vet should never have sent her home with "tarry" poop and I don't think that the stress comment made any sense. Yes, stress can contribute to make illness worse, but she should not have been that stressed from not being home - horses aren't like people that get "homesick" - they deal with where they are in the present. She mush have been having other issues or was stressed by her physical condition or how she was being housed or handled. Anyway, I think it's truly odd that they were willing to send her home when she was having problems that morning. Her vital signs had to have shown SOMETHING if she died so quickly. So sorry you had to go through that (and poor Flower too).

As for Hunter, maybe Full Pockets or In Your Pocket...

[tri]

This whole story doesn't make a lot of sense. The vet sent home a pony that was crashing stating stress & ulcers? Either the vet is completely stupid or there is more to the story. They didn't happen to do a plasma transfusion, did they?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Most vets you have to fight to get a horse released. I don't know of any that would send a horse home that was not doing great, or at least steadily improving with NO setbacks in the recent 24 to 48 hours. I have really never heard of any saying, "you really need to take your horse home because he is not doing well." Any IV (or ARTERY :no:) injections before loading?

[Hillside H Ranch]

My condolences on your loss; how terrible.

I'm guessing we are never going to know the full story, especially without a necropsy. I agree that most vets tend to err on the side of caution when sending horses home. I know that we would never send a horse home that had so recently spiked a fever, especially one that seemed to be in pain. Most vets aren't in this business to harm animals and if that isn't a motivating factor then the litigious nature of the U.S. certainly is.

[amdfarm]

My condolences on your loss; how terrible.

I'm guessing we are never going to know the full story, especially without a necropsy. I agree that most vets tend to err on the side of caution when sending horses home. I know that we would never send a horse home that had so recently spiked a fever, especially one that seemed to be in pain. Most vets aren't in this business to harm animals and if that isn't a motivating factor then the litigious nature of the U.S. certainly is.

And here *we* thought this other clinic was better than the first vet that completely ignored the pony's situation and refused to come because of issues w/ a client. Poor Maria and Poor sweet Flower girl. :(

[Foxtrot's]

We put our faith in vets and trust they can triage. My friend lost a foal last year because he could not pass all his meconium. Two vets were too busy and the fact that they are in the toolies so to speak made it an excuse. They advised she put the mare and baby in a trailer for a three hour drive to the nearest clinic. A friend came and drove and she travelled the whole way in the back trying to keep baby comfortable. The clinic tried all night to save him, but it was too late and the surgery came too late. Maybe, at least a letter to the College would produce a reprimand and maybe the vets would
be forced to attend their clients by prioritising - but she was afraid to do that in case she got blackballed, and beside, like the OP, she
had so much else to come to terms with.

Some good came of this - the mom was able to be a surrogate mum to an orphaned race foal and she almost didn't seem to know the difference, and she produced a perfect foal for my friend this year.
AND the stallion owner sent, entirely at their expense, the semen for the baby, didn't charge for anything. Love these good people.

Again, my condolances - you did your best for her.

[jumperx23]

oh man. i am crying. like hysterics. that is such a precious picture of her so young. =[ im sorry.

[aspenlucas]

Most vets you have to fight to get a horse released. I don't know of any that would send a horse home that was not doing great, or at least steadily improving with NO setbacks in the recent 24 to 48 hours. I have really never heard of any saying, "you really need to take your horse home because he is not doing well." Any IV (or ARTERY :no:) injections before loading?

You know the last 36 hours I've thought and thought about everything, and it still doesn't make sense. I still don't BLAME the vet that sent her home. For two reasons. A- I think he truly thought this pony was starting to stress. It was horribly hot, she had just foaled, she had just recovered, so everyone thought from a major illness, and it was her first time ever off our farm. Thinking back...maybe I should have asked to bring a companion/friend with her? I've heard antibiotics can cause internal bleeding. I think for me to get a clearer picture of what happened. I need to know/see what all they gave her and did and also find out how her culture turned out. Maybe Kathy can help but if she retained some placenta would the culture show that? The pony's death may be my fault. I gave the hospital a figure I could afford. I didn't realize they took payments and billed you. I told them what I had in my bank account I could do for this pony that day. They gave me a game plan but didn't pull out all the bells and whistles as we were pretty sure she had a piece of retained placenta. I think they took the action that was best. I do think at midnight when she began a fever that was the beginning of the end for her. However she was still eating, drinking and looking alert, and it was like 85* that night, the next morning she looked uncomfortable, but with the Karophate she looked quieter, standing resting a hind leg in front of the fan, not trying to lay down or anything. She looked stressed if anything. I've had a tb off the track with ulcers and the signs were the same. I can appreciate if that was the case getting her into a non stressful environment may have been best, but that was not what was wrong with her. Now had she stayed, i would have left there. They couldn't have saved her. She died so quickly and quietly, her fate was sealed. I'm not meaning to be harsh but I don't think these vets are horrible people. God bless you all if you have perfect vets that never make mistakes. At this point these vets were willing to help me, they may have misdiagnosed, but the sick pony was not their fault and they did what they could. At this point in my life I don't think it is going to help me to lay blame. I need to move on with our life without Flower. She was a special special pony. Now I do have to think of a perfect name for Hunter, and oh what a stinker he is! I'm going to upload a couple head shots and an eye shot of Flower to my blog and post it and then give you guys a you tube page of her 1/2 brother. It will make you smile, he is full of piss and vinegar! Thank you for all the well wishes, jingles, prayers, etc. We got her buried in the hay field, a proper place for a loved pony.

[aspenlucas]

Most of these were taken when Flower was one and two. The last picture of her eye was taken this spring. http://frostyoaks.blogspot.com/2008/06/flower-rip-jun-8th-2008.html
This is Hunter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsvTNtFeXXU

[YankeeLawyer]

Regarding paying for treatments, definitely don't beat yourself up over that. Vet care is really expensive, sadly, and people can only do their best. It is something I always think about because emergencies can run up a bill really fast.

I recently learned about something called Care Credit (carecredit.com) which is a low-interest financing option for medical bills, for animals or people. It works like a credit card, but can be used at any of their listed doctors (of all kinds) or vets. And each time you use it, you can pick the payment plan that works best for you (some are very extended in length, but low interest, others are shorter at 0% interest, for example). I got one recently for some emergency oral surgery, but noticed that a number of equine vet practices and clinics are on their list. I think it can be a good thing to have in case of any kind of unexpected medical emergency.

[aspenlucas]

Regarding paying for treatments, definitely don't beat yourself up over that. Vet care is really expensive, sadly, and people can only do their best. It is something I always think about because emergencies can run up a bill really fast.

I recently learned about something called Care Credit (carecredit.com) which is a low-interest financing option for medical bills, for animals or people. It works like a credit card, but can be used at any of their listed doctors (of all kinds) or vets. And each time you use it, you can pick the payment plan that works best for you (some are very extended in length, but low interest, others are shorter at 0% interest, for example). I got one recently for some emergency oral surgery, but noticed that a number of equine vet practices and clinics are on their list. I think it can be a good thing to have in case of any kind of unexpected medical emergency.
Wow YL good to know! I'll surely look it up. The great thing about this vet is they bill me, so I can then bill my clients. I don't have many, only a few "friends" that leave their youngstock, broodmares, etc with me as their show barns have limited turnout, but to lose a vet over that is not worth it. Though I'm glad I don't have that vet, had she been there for Flower I would have wondered a lot more! We drove by her farm today...James mentioned stopping. Her day will come. Kudos to all the vets out there that love animals and go above and beyond!

[Horsecrazy27]

so sorry for your loss--she was adorable.

[YankeeLawyer]

Wow YL good to know! I'll surely look it up. !

Also, someone told me that if your preferred vet / clinic is not on the list, you can ask them to contact care credit about being added. Assuming it does not cost the vet anything (I am not sure how it works on the doctor side), they may very well be willing to do it. If you get the card, I would try to get all your preferred doctors you might need to call on in an emergency to sign up before an emergency strikes. My dentist, for example, does not accept any insurance plans and is fairly inflexible in that regard, but loves care credit, fwiw.

[Foxtrot's]

I think you are beating yourself up unnecessarily. Stuff happens and it is so terribly sad, but while you do not want to apportion blame to the professionals you put in charge of your pony's care, you question yourself. It is understandable to be aware of the escalating costs of care, but please don't make things harder for yourself than they already are. It is so sad when we lose an animal but read this board, it does happen. You did what you could for Flower and no if's or but's will change the outcome now. Be nice to yourself, you need it.

[lcw579]

This thread has been heartbreaking. I am so sorry for your loss. Flower was a lovely pony.

Now for a name for Hunter that will honor her.... How about Fox Glove? It is the name of a flower and "fox" ties in with his barn name of Hunter.

I liked the earlier suggestion of Kingly Coronet. After watching the video, I'm sure he has a "kingly" presence about him - he certainly doesn't look like he's lacking in self esteem!

I'll have to dig out my old gardening books, some of the common names for flowers would make great pony names..

[Kimberlee]

So very sorry for your loss.

[Kyzteke]

I am so very, very sorry for your loss. Flower sounded like the sweetest of ponies.

As for the vet, they sound like they did their best (the clinic ones anyway) -- if she was passing tarry stools, she was obviously bleeding internally -- either from the antibiotics or something far, far worse. Although the vet should have discussed the options with you, the fact is that the next step would have been transfusions, surgery, etc. -- all of which would have cost a bundle and may not have saved her in the end -- not to mention the stress and pain it would have put Flower through. And if Flower died only 15 minutes later, I doubt very seriously if much could have been done.

Vets are people. They ARE fallible. I've had vets miss twins that later aborted, miss a breech positioning that resulted in losing the the foal, etc. We don't all live next door to New Bolton, etc. In the end, the best you can do is be proactive, educate yourself, and understand the vet is probably doing the best they can. Vets work long hours for very little pay, and most do it because they love animals. We need to understand that.

Also, I think people need to realize how much vets learn AFTER graduation -- they are really tossed out there with just the bare bones of knowledge -- especially about equine repro.

It sounds like a sad situation all around, but the fact is, sometimes Life is sad. Sometimes we lose what we love and it simply IS -- no one's real fault, but it just happens. This is Life.

Maria -- I am so very, VERY sorry for your loss of poor little Flower...trust me, I've been there. But you did what you could for her and, bitter comfort that it might be, you have learned from this experience. I'm sure if it ever happens to one of your other horses, you will use the knowledge for (hopefully) a different outcome.

Godspeed, Flower -- may you gallop forever in the green pastures of Heaven.

[ahf]

What an elegant and touching post Kyzteke. And how very true. Thank you.

[aspenlucas]

What an elegant and touching post Kyzteke. And how very true. Thank you.

Ditto, you said what I've been feeling, still slightly in shock over the whole thing and still mulling over a perfect name for Hunter, there have been a ton of great suggestions on here! He's shedding out gray! My husband came running home yesterday saying "something is wrong with Hunter!" Went to the barn with him, nope just shedding gray but his face looks so silly.

[lcw579]

Another name suggestion - it may be too feminine but I thought I'd throw it out there because of the way I came across it.

Right after I read this thread I picked up the book I was reading and came to a passage that mentioned a pretty little purple flower growing in the wall of a cemetary. The flower was called Heartsease. Something about where it was growing and the name in general just made me go hmmmm. I ignored it at first but then in passing the character in the book mentioned seeing this flower again, so I figured I'd put it out there.

[Showsheen]

:sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile: :sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile: :sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile: :sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile: :sadsmile::sadsmile::sadsmile:

[pegasus209]

Truly heartbreaking..I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved Flower.. :cry:
What a game little lady she was. Sending {{big hugs}} your way