..

[Feuerlilie]

...

[SGray]

........Trainer says rider needs to either get it together with the mare and show it who is boss or sell the "darn thing" :(
What would you do? What would you say?

if the trainer thinks the combo. is getting dangerous - that's one thing

if the trainer just doesn't like the horse - that's another

[Ibex]

I think it sounds like the trainer is frustrated with the student who won't be in charge.

[charismaryllis]

what are the rider's goals? is she trying to win some serious bling, or just become a better rider and bring the horse along? if it were me and i loved the horse, i'd say (politely), "i'm keeping the horse. if you have an issue with that, then thanks so much for your help but i'll just find someone else to work with."

[caffeinated]

Perhaps a different trainer who communicates better with rider, or clicks better with rider, is in order.

Otherwise, maybe rider has to at least try to go to "those lengths" to get the result the trainer wants, as trainer is probably frustrated with rider who is not living up to a potential the trainer sees, or who won't follow trainer's directions.

If trainer's directions are really that far out of rider's comfort zone, finding another might be in everyone's best interest.

[suzyq]

Riders goals are to get this mare to as higher level as she will go....mare has everythign there...rider has not been as dominant as she can be until recently.

BNT told riders friend that she yells at the rider to make her mad enough to get up the mare when she is being naughty....but the extent the rider has to go to, to be the boss of this mare is quite a lot, and it is not in the riders nature to get THAT tough with her horse :eek:

And do you agree with what BNT says? You probably know in your heart if you can be tough enough. Does the BNT ride your horse? Does he get tough with the horse and the horse goes better? On the other hand, if you think BNT just doesn't like this horse, you can get a second opinion. I've seen BNT's who will work with everything, and also BNT's who prefer to work with certain types of horses.

Personally, I leased a mare once that I had to get really tough with, the trainer kept telling me to get after her and let her knows who's boss and then she would be fine. I am not naturally aggressive and had to learn to get after this particular horse. It ended up great, he was right, but I had to trust the trainer and go outside of my box.

[AKB]

Try to get a few lessons with another instructor to get some new ideas and perspective. My daughter's instructor (a BNT) used to get frustrated with her because she saw my daughter and the horse had potential. Then, she finally understood that my daughter rides for fun and doesn't want to advance. The instructor's job is to keep them both safe and enjoying themselves. Now, the instructor and my daughter both enjoy the lessons.

[merrygoround]

Depends on how fast the rider wants to reach her goals. The mare is still young, and may be slow to mature.

The rider needs to sit down with herself, and work out a plan of action. And then follow it! :)

[Ambrey]

Riders goals are to get this mare to as higher level as she will go....mare has everythign there...rider has not been as dominant as she can be until recently.

BNT told riders friend that she yells at the rider to make her mad enough to get up the mare when she is being naughty....but the extent the rider has to go to, to be the boss of this mare is quite a lot, and it is not in the riders nature to get THAT tough with her horse :eek:

If my goal was to progress my horse, I'd find a new trainer.

If my goal was to progress in dressage, and I felt this trainer was to take me there, I'd get a new horse.

I know people who've done both. It's totally a matter of priorities.

But my other question is, are this trainer's methods working for you? It doesn't sound like it, if you've been with her for a while and only recently figured out how to be dominant. Maybe the type who goes for quiet insistance would be better?

[slc2]

In this case, if it was me, I would try really hard to get it together and work with the horse more effectively. The comments that follow assume this is a healthy horse, free of pain, in appropriate tack, and the only problem is the training issue.

And clearly, this sort of problem happens every single day with horses that are not in any pain at all. All one has to do is not ride forward, or not use the reins in an ideal way.

Some horses are very sensitive to any sort of 'restraint' and they have to be ridden very very forward all the time, very loose and soft in the reins and very forward off the leg, if the rider doesn't really diligently ride forward for even thirty SECONDS, this type of horse comes out every day worse and worse and worse until very quickly he is doing this. This can happen with ANY horse. They don't have to be in pain.

And fortunately, this is how a rider really learns the next step in his riding - to separate his aids, to keep his rein very soft and loose even within the kind of rein length he needs to do something more than just hack around.

...and this is the HARDEST thing a dressage rider ever learns, to separate his aids and to ride even on a shorter rein with a really light, loose feel that doesn't 'block his leg'.

It can be made far, far harder when the person has ridden a horse for a long time that dragged him around or was on the forehand alot. they get on a better horse and wow - all of a sudden - what in the heck does one do.

Chances are, if the trainer is really good, as described, anyone else you try to get a 'second opinion' from will say the same thing...and ALSO be right.

What the mare does may not be dangerous, but it completely prevents the rider from progressing in dressage at all.

it's very important to find out if she will fish or cut bait, ie, if someone really lays it on the line, will the mare fight back and BECOME dangerous, or just continue being nappy and not improve, or say, 'ok, why didn't you say so in the first place' and give it up - which is what most of them will do if they are corrected properly.

There is no way a nappy acting horse is going to do anything in dressage. The horse may not be dangerous but it's a waste of time to try and do anything at all with her if this isn't fixed.

If the rider has any goals at all to show or do anything in dressage with the horse, this has to get fixed. And most likely, it has to get fixed by the rider, not a trainer.

All a trainer can do is show the rider it can be done. The rider still has to get up there, change how he rides, and make the partnership work.

And no. Fixing this is not always the most sensitive, attractive thing in the world, and it tends to be something many people on a bb would tell you that is unneccessary, that you just have to somehow mystically BOND with the animal (or a new saddle, or a vet, or a chiropractor, or a dentist, or a massage, or a different bit) and they'd be wrong. It is not for someone who is squeamish about making a horse behave, or using their legs, spur and whip. It may only take once, but even at that, it is not going to be a pretty 2-3 minutes.

[Merle]

I had a horse who I had to get tough with. It was hard for me at first but then I had to think of it as he is being disobedient and mean to me, and I should be offended! So, once I got in that mindset, I was able to get tough. Maybe if you think of it as her being mean to you and you should be offended it will be a bit easier? It just would start making me a bit irritated when my horse did things that were naughty so I could justify being tough on him and making him work.

I would keep her, if I were you, and work through it. I know it's hard to get tough but it helps you be a better rider by learning how to work with these sorts of horses. And, for the record, once I was tough he smartened up and we progressed MUCH quicker!

[greygirls]

Being a low level rider, my opinion is pretty humble, but I had to comment having a mare similar to yours that I've had since she was 6. She's now 13. BTW, I think all the comments presented here have been totally reasonable.

I just think that 5 years is so young to be making any judgments about selling the mare. She's still so young and probably somewhat immature. To me it's impressive that she's at second level. It also depends on whether you want to work through things with her. It can be difficult. After 7 years, I have a rather solid citizen--although, that alpha/opinion stuff never quite goes away, especially when she's "punished" with the whip, which I apply very judicially. She tends to get the message better with voice and leg.

As your mare matures both in her head as well as her body, I think she will begin to give you more and more of herself, without the attitude. That's been my experience for whatever it's worth.

[slc2]

i think it's good if a horse is at second level, but that just isn't going to go well if it's not forward off the leg.

[Ted the Peep 'Ho]

I would have my mom bite the BNT. And maybe kick them too.

[sm]

Trainer says rider needs to either get it together with the mare and show it who is boss or sell the "darn thing" :( What would you do? What would you say?

I'm reading it as trainer is frustrated with rider and is trying to give rider a wake up call, as in, this lack of applying yourself is unacceptable, so change!!

I think this mare probably has much to teach rider, so start learning :yes:

No where am I reading a suggestion if the rider gets a new horse, this Paragon of Virtue will be the perfect ride. Every horse can, and does, teach you something.

[slc2]

I very much hope you really stick with it. It sounds like a wonderful horse, and all it needs is for you to just fight for it. I don't mean to 'fight' the horse, I mean we have to fight ourselves. We have to fight so many things to move along in dressage, sometimes our own doubts and hesitations are our worst enemies. And each challenge like this just makes a better and better rider if one sticks it out.

I feel you can really do this and really be happy with the results!!!!

We saw the movie Ratatouille and now all the time when we face something difficult at the farm, it's a joke for one of us to yell, 'Come on let's DO THIS THING!' If a rat can run a restaurant in Paris, you can make this mare be a star.

[Feuerlilie]

Yes SLC.....second level is great but without forward it is nothing.

And just reread the first part of your post...about it getting worse and worse if not nipped in the bud...I think this is what happens to me....I get slack with correcting her and then my BNT comes to clinic (once a month) and it is back to where she left me. I need to STAY tough!!!!!
I am determined now.

Thank you for your FAB post...it has defintely made me understand a bit more....plus it is great to knwo that someone understands what is going on...coz this mare had me beat for a while there:o

[Feuerlilie]

SM...yes....I know she was frustrated with me.....poor BNT.
But she wants me to fix this I know......she told me I could get another rider in her to make her forward....and get through her nappiness BUT she says ultimately I have to do it myself. I so agree. She tells me that she believes I can ride the mare through this but I have to believe I can too :eek:

And I tend to get so down on myself when I cant follow through :o

SLC...thank you so much for your great words....I DO have to DO THIS THING :D

Only I can do it.....no-one else....I realise this....and tomorrows ride will be even better. I must stay tough :yes:

[Janet]

But I have found that if I am on top of it from the start the next ride is not so 'ugly" I think that is the key. With a mare like that, the key is the TIMING of the aids. You have to act INSTANTLY he moment she STARTS to do something bad (or even THINKS about doing something bad).

If you wait until she
-starts to do something bad
-you give a mild correction
-she doesn't respond
-(a few strides later) you give a stronger correction
-she doesn't respond
-(a few strides later)you escalate to something she WILL respond to
-she responds

then she is taking advantage of you. And next time you will have to whack even harder to get a response. She has learned that it is "OK to ignore the moderate aids".

If, on the other hand
-she starts to do something
-you give a strong correction, and if she doesn't respond instantly,you escalate to something she WILL respond to- all within the same stride

then she will learn that it is not OK to ignore the moderate aids.

Once she is responding to the moderate aid, you try it with the mild aid. If she doesn't repond instantly to the mild aid, you immediately escalate.

My dressage instructor says it is important to be patient about the "big" things (collection, engagement, throughness) but to be VERY IMPATIENT about responses to the aids.

[Janet]

My volume of aids have to increase to 10 straight away with this mare or else she has me beat! So it was a win tonight :yes:

Greygirls....thank you...I am hoping her brain matures and she realises she just isnt the boss mare anymore. I think it is not so much HER brain maturing as that she needs to learn that you will EVERY TIME "increase to 10 straight away" if she doesn't respond the first time.

You will always need to have that "in your tool box", it is just that you won't need to use it very often.

[Feuerlilie]

Very true Janet....its like a sliding scale...and knowing which part of the scale to go to first;)

Yes my tool box seems very heavy at the moment ...but this is a good thing...I feel more positive and thats a start I think

[CatOnLap]

If a rat can run a restaurant in Paris, you can make this mare be a star.

(shhh. No one tell her it was just a movie. a cartoon at that. Real life is a bit more complex.)

Does the BNT really know this mare? Or was it a snapshot clinic situation?
A horse's mind at 5 is not mature. I would give it another couple of years with a different trainer before giving it up. I've had some true idiots who turned 7 or 8 and got a clue and became brilliant. Horses that I thought hated dressage, suddenly figured out things could be fun.

[sm]

Feurerlilie, but remember to work WITH the mare. She has learned well from your bad habits.

Think of it as you've been doing your horse a disservice up til now, maybe that will make it easier for you to move ahead.

GOOD LUCK!

[Feuerlilie]

Thanks cat......yes she knows the mare.....I have been taking her to BNT for about 12 months now....we have made big progress...even the forward has gotten a lot better. :)

[Feuerlilie]

Yes SM.....I know it is all my fault :yes:
I have no-one to blame but myself...this is what frustrates me.
I have been letting her get away with so much that I have , frankly, spoiled her

[Ambrey]

And just reread the first part of your post...about it getting worse and worse if not nipped in the bud...I think this is what happens to me....I get slack with correcting her and then my BNT comes to clinic (once a month) and it is back to where she left me. I need to STAY tough!!!!!
I am determined now.


I don't have help with the dressage side of it, but on the "being tough" side, I'll tell you what had to switch in my mind to make it easy for me to get tough and not feel bad (because I did the exact same thing with my horse, only he is huge and kind of a scaredycat and I ended up in the emergency room).

I realized that his life was going to be happiest if he learned to behave. Nobody is nice to an ill-behaved horse. I had to sit there and worry that he was going to be branded as a monster for hurting me (he's not, he's a doll) and think about sending him to some crazy cowboy trainer to get the wake-up call.

The combination of that and a trainer to get rid of the damage already done has done wonders for our relationship. You already have the trainer, you just need to keep it in your mind that her behavior directly affects her quality of life. A well trained dressage horse will (almost) always be able to find someone to take care of it, even if something were to happen to you.

[Ajierene]

Personally, I don't like trainers that give that kind of advice unwanted. My instructor doesn't like quarter horses as much - especially not ones with the traditional QH build. She never once told her other student to sell the horse.

Now, if you were getting frustrated and asking your instructor why your horse wasn't going the way you wanted and she said because you aren't boss enough - that would be one thing.

If you were asking if this horse would ever be a Grand Prix dressage horse and your trainer said she didn't think so, that would be fine. It is still your decision to sell or keep the horse.

My friend sold her first horse on the somewhat unasked for advice of her trainer and she regrets it to this day. My friend is the one that started taking lessons with my instructor first, which is how I got to know my instructor. My instructor will spend half an hour just talking with my friend, 15 min working at the walk and 15 min working at the trot. This is the choice of my friend - instructor gets paid the same either way, so what's the big deal?

My instructor has told me my mare does not have the scope to do more than training level eventing with my mare - she never once told me to sell her even though she knows I am (or was) fairly competitive. She spent 2 months of weekly lessons with me not really trusting her to know what she was doing - so we wouldn't always work on lesson work outside of the lesson. Because she never yelled or complained or told me I better do this that or the other thing is a big part of why I trust her now.

If you like the horse, keep the horse. If you don't like the horse, sell the horse. It is as simple as that. Your trainer should be keeping your interests and wants in the forefront - that is what she is paid to do. She is not paid to put you on something you don't like or push you to compete where you do not want to.

[ride-n-tx]

she is now 5 years......big moving mare....had a stifle injury but now all fine, but slower to mature and strengthen partly becoz of weakness in the backend, She is an alpha mare...strong opinions.....but now is starting to understand she can use herself. Training second level. Owner started the mare herself. Good temperament otherwise...can be ridden out by herself or in company.

I just wanted to say don't get frustrated. Getting a 5 year old big moving horse going at 2nd level is a great accomplishment so far!! Especially with the strength issues you mentioned. You should feel great about that.

[pintopiaffe]

have you ever tried a good hand gallop very early in warmup? A VERY BRISK hack out including canter before the ring work? What are you doing conditioning wise to help her to be strong enough for the work to be easy?

I don't even start them until 4, so fer me, 5 is still very young and green, and *for me* I would expect some resistance at five to be due to growing and lack of strength. Doesn't mean they get away with it--I agree there--but, I guess my expectations are different of a 5yo. Especially a late bloomer. (most 5yo TBs or QHs would be more mature mentally and physically--not even all of them.)

Only you know what your goals are, and what your secret dreams in your heart are. If goals can 'wait' as long as they need to achieve your secret dreams (mine can! schedules have gone on hold several times because I know what I *yearn* for!) If your heart and head both want competition success now, or FEI 5yo by fall... perhaps this isn't the horse, or the instructor. Or, perhaps the horse might need to spend some time WITH the instructor in full training... or... lots of different scenarios. But you have to choose.

[xQHDQ]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3263858]If my goal was to progress my horse, I'd find a new trainer.

If my goal was to progress in dressage, and I felt this trainer was to take me there, I'd get a new horse.

QUOTE]

I would add that If my goal was to progress my horse and in dressage, I may need to get tougher as the trainer requests.

[baylady7]

stick to your guns!
One of the 1st things I tell trainers is that this is my horse (has been for 20 yrs now) and I am not selling him. Period. So work with what we have within our limitations. We set achieveable goals and work towards those.

That said, my guy can get piggy at times and I understand what you are going through. It really is more humane to have a firm correction and move on than to nag and nag and nag. Otherwise you end up working incorrectly for much longer, as opposed to a 2 second ugly time and then on to co-operation. Nothing too tough- just enough to let your horse know you mean it and then to move on. Finding that point can be a challenge. For anyone. I had a European trainer (FEI level) working my horse and he would just resist him. His wife rode him and they got along without arguement. She was softer but stil firm. He was not nasty, they just butted heads.

So do evaluate your goals and go from there. Also consider clinicing with some other trainers to get their inputfor compare/contrast. I know that so often the judges comment match my trainer's so I take that as a good sign. Best of luck,

[MyReality]

It's a difficult situation, you need to know with clarity, whether it's her injury, or her maturity or good old resistence that causes her behaviour.

It is true my mare very young, but we aint' going anywhere if she didn't even want to try... as a matter of fact, she was more interested in anything but responding to me. I was fed up. I whacked her so hard, she was afraid of the whip for 2 rides. I had to just sit there, and not move my hand, kept walking and bending her, not dare to even ask for trot, not dare to change whip or even change direction much.

But we survived those 2 rides, the go button is forever installed. :)

[Rienzi]

Warning, then strong correction. She will quickly get the hint that it is time to MOVE at the warning and not to "wait and see what happens because maybe I can get away with this longer." Except with truly pig-headed horses, you really don't have to hit them much once they get with the program.

Don't forget to let her know when she's done right, too!

She is only a teen-ager right now, and of course she is going to see what she can get away with. She got a lot of maturing to do, in her body and in her mind. But if she's not mean and nasty, and you like her, I would advise to try to stick it out with her. It's a change in the relationship, and it will take time, but in the end you will have mastered her and yourself.

[nhwr]

I would be aggressive about dealing with the horse's issues. It sounds like you have some uncertainty about whether the horse can actually do the work. You need to know that for sure. If the horse isn't 100%, you may need to re-evaluate your goals.

Other than that, I'd sell the horse or find a new trainer. Sounds like the trainer is clearly telling you she doesn't want to work with the horse. That is not a recipe for success.

[atr]

If you can pull on the big girl panties for a couple of months and insist on immediate response and obedience, you will probably find that she will stop testing you every ride. I've had to do this with my horse about moving forward off my leg--he'd much rather just turn into ironsides and tune me out.

So I was up there, nagging away, getting nowhere, and finding that it spilled over into other aspects of both our riddden and on-the-ground relationship.

1400lbs of no respect is a poor idea.

So I went to work. To be honest, he's been spoiled because he's been sick, and has had a very long and difficult recovery, so going after him for every infraction made me feel like a total heel. But by golly, he was a nicer, happier horse and a nicer happier ride after a couple of months of absolute dictatorship.

He gets lots of praise and reward for doing the right thing, too. This is a really important element.

And he doesn't hate me for it, apparently--I was clinicing with a BNT myself a couple of months ago and caught her on the video saying to someone "Wow. That horse really loves her, doesn't he?"

Made my day....

[jazzrider]

I would have my mom bite the BNT. And maybe kick them too.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: That's a great visual!

[Dressage Art]

I had this situation and I choose to keep my horse and find a new training arrangement, b/c my horse is a part of my family.

If you would like to stay with your BNT - you probably have to sell your horse. BNT can get even more and more inpatient with your mare and that may eventually transfer to you. You probably will be stuck at the same place in your training and it can get frustrating. BNT would give you the same answer for all training problems: sell your horse. Some BNTs don't believe in wasting their time on not 100% suitable mounts for dressage - would that be horse's mind or gaits.

It's much easier to progress with a horse that is easy going, eager to work, and has the gaits for dressage. Your progress can sky-rocket and you can go up several levels per year. With a difficult horse you may ended up staying at the same level for a handful of years.

It is up to you to decide what is the MOST important to you:

*your current horse
*your dressage progress up the levels
*relationship with your BNT

Answer those questions and you'll find the answer to your situation. Unfortunately any decision would be difficult and painful to execute. Hugs to you.

[tikidoc]

I have only skimmed the previous posts, so forgive me if there is some repetition.

I have had similar issues with my horse, who I have also owned since he was a baby. He is a WB who is, by nature, quite lazy. And I am not a terribly aggressive rider. I also have a BNT who I work with about once a month (eventing, not pure dressage) who really insists that I get after the horse and MAKE him go forward. His theory is that your aid should be either a 1 in intensity or a 10. Ask with a 1, if he does not listen, go directly to 10 (I think he told me to have my spurs meet in his pancreas, LOL). Not meaning for me to beat on him or anything, just a BIG aid until he responds, then back off. If he listens, go back to 1. The horse learned in a big hurry that when I ask nicely, he should listen. And now he does. It was hard for me at first, because I am not a terribly aggressive rider, but now he is SO much easier to ride. We had a few bucks at first but now when I ask for forward, I get it. And the horse seems to be really liking his work better. I am no longer thumping on his sides with my legs trying to get him to listen. So I enjoy riding him more too.

I'm not sure what to say about the BNT wanting you to sell the horse, I did not have that problem, I just got a "you can't be his buddy right now, you need him to know you are boss" lecture, and we had what I jokingly refer to now as our "epiphany lesson".

[MontanaDun]

I have a young mare who is very similar to yours. I recently rode her in a clinic with a gal I have been riding with for a long time, but only see a few times a year.

The clinician point blank told me that I either needed to get my act together and get the mare submissive and in front of my leg or sell her. Because if I didn't, I was likely to get hurt. I suspect that is largely where your BNT is coming from as well.

She also says "If you need a lesson, the teacher will come." <g>

My steady eddy guy is often not sufficiently in front of my leg either, but he has no desire to take control of the situation, so we just wind up with work that isn't as nice as it could be. But with the mare, I can't let things slide like that.

So maybe the mare is there to teach you something - you just need to decide if you are ready for the lesson!

MD

[starry_night]

If things aren't working right with you, your horse, and your trainer, maybe try a different trainer for awhile? Not exactly the easiest option, but the right trainer for both of you as a pair can make a big difference! This doesn't mean she is a bad trainer, just maybe not perfect for both of you. I went through a similar problem and now we are a great pair, and it sounds like you feel selling is not the right way to go. You also have to take what you can get, though, and not necessarily expect a high-level horse if that isn't what she is as it's not fair to her to do so.
Also, I know it goes without saying, but broodmare isn't exactly the best career option for a mare who isn't spectacular at what she does!

[STF]

Trainer says rider needs to either get it together with the mare and show it who is boss or sell the "darn thing" :(
What would you do? What would you say?

Its about YOU, your finances and your goals. If the mare is going to hinder you making your goals, then you may want to look at it from that presepective. But..... with that said, riding the difficult ones makes us better riders/trainers ;)

[PFMJ]

I had a similar problem with my 5 year old. We had taken it fairly slowly with him and when the work became harder, he got resistant (and did some not so nice things). I knew that if he did not buckle down, and really start to work, there was no way he was going to be able to make an upper level horse, no matter how much innate talent he had, so in talking we (me and both my trainers ) gave it a reasonable amount of time, LOTS of hard work, and in the end, he is now working better than ever; however, he did not get away with anything.

I do have to say, that he would both fall back on his routine of behavior at times (oops, I forgot mom) and sometimes even ramp up his problem behavior; however, once we got things sorted out, he understood that NO, this is not acceptable behavior, he is back to working well, getting strong, and seems very happy in his work, which is so very important to me and I'm glad to see it. Some of it is maturity, I do think, but in the end, they have to learn that it's job.

[cuatx55]

I was told to sell my horse. So I got a new trainer and now it's going wonderfully.

The issue wasn't the horse, it was that my ex-trainer didn't know how to train him...it is all in perception and the ability to adapt.

[cac182]

Do you think your BNT would work with the two of you on the ground...perhaps get her submissive with yields etc. on the ground (till she is chewing and attentive) and then transfer under saddle. This is what Jerry Schurink suggested in clinic to a few of us who were struggling to make "demands" from our mares under saddle... mostly because we are soooooo in love with them and don't want to get after them. If they are submissive before you ever get on then the ride progresses much more smoothly. Worked like a charm and we continue to use this (I also use some of the yields while leading w/ my yearling and she has become quite the respectful, but still fun loving, young lady). Granted I am NO trainer or advanced horsewoman...but something to think about.

[Feuerlilie]

CAC,,..yes! You are onto something there...

Since my BNT was up we have been doing on ground stuff before I hop on......asking her to move over from the whip on the ground. She is much mroe attentive to me when I do this.
Thanks...I must write all this down before I forget:lol:

[cac182]

Let us know how it goes!

[SisterToSoreFoot]

If the horse is sound and sane, and the rider committed to being as good a rider as he or she can be, then the horse should not be sold. It sounds to me that the trainer is frustrated with the rider's passiveness and throws in the stuff about selling the horse to light a fire under her.

Basically, the trainer is doing to the rider what she wishes she'd do to the horse! Believe me, if a trainer said to me "your horse is no good, you'll never advance!" I'd respond, "Oh, yeah? Well get a load of this!" and proceed to ride my ass off to prove her wrong. It would definitely motivate me! Maybe all this is is just a motivational tool?

[Foxtrot's]

My first thought was that there is not much respect for the horse or the owner by the expression "sell the darned thing". THING??

[Bellfleur]

Well I had a Contucci mare that at 3 I tried to give away for 5K. Only one taker and they could not come up with the money.

At 5 I could barely stand her. I actually dreaded riding her and a top international FEI competitor (my trainer!) said "What are you going to do with that one". He said well you have to keep training it until it is sold.

I took her back a year later and he said "where did you get this mare she is quite nice." Believe me she did not look or act anything the same. When I told him it was the mare from the year before he said "You are Kidding right!!"

Now at 7 she is a very expensive horse and worth every penny of it. Sometimes it takes time and understanding to work through things with a mare.

If she is not going to hurt you, trust your heart and your instinct. It would be pretty boring if everyone cantered down centerline on the same horse.

I would question any trainers judgement anyhow, that told you she is not a suitable riding horse so she should be a broodmare is seriously lacking some education (unless she has a newly imported stallion and wants to breed to your mare :D ask the trainer if they want the resulting foal)! All that does is give you another questionable horse. You should be extremely careful to only breed the best mares.

[bthatasitmay]

My coach said to give it a year and then decide. I have a beautiful, opinionated alpha mare WB. I wasn't about to give her up. So I got to work. It has been a study of patience and perseverence but she is now 6 yrs later doing P and P, half pass etc. Still developing canter but it is going well, have done rudimentary FC. I don't have Olympic goals but I am having fun. These mares need patience and trust in you to be the intelligent alpha.

[Hazelnut]

Oh, this is such useful advice! And it starts on the ground and on the lunge.

I think that is the key. With a mare like that, the key is the TIMING of the aids. You have to act INSTANTLY he moment she STARTS to do something bad (or even THINKS about doing something bad).

If you wait until she
-starts to do something bad
-you give a mild correction
-she doesn't respond
-(a few strides later) you give a stronger correction
-she doesn't respond
-(a few strides later)you escalate to something she WILL respond to
-she responds

then she is taking advantage of you. And next time you will have to whack even harder to get a response. She has learned that it is "OK to ignore the moderate aids".

If, on the other hand
-she starts to do something
-you give a strong correction, and if she doesn't respond instantly,you escalate to something she WILL respond to- all within the same stride

then she will learn that it is not OK to ignore the moderate aids.

Once she is responding to the moderate aid, you try it with the mild aid. If she doesn't repond instantly to the mild aid, you immediately escalate.

My dressage instructor says it is important to be patient about the "big" things (collection, engagement, throughness) but to be VERY IMPATIENT about responses to the aids.

[egontoast]

The impression I got is that the trainer is saying, quite reasonably, get it together, expect more, teach your horse to go from a light aid or sell her if you want to progress. (not- I hate your horse, so sell her) The Op seems to agree that she is too soft with the horse and the horse is a bit nappy.

The kindest thing to do is to teach the horse to go from light aids and that may require some tough love unpretty moments initially but in the end will be happier for all. I've been there and I have a very forward thinking old guy who would never have been that if I had not just taught him to do it with a very short stint of tough love! You would never call him nappy or dull now. He wants to GO! but I had to show him that.

NAg nag nag is not nicer than having the discipline as a rider to teach your horse to go from the light aid from now on or there will be consequences. You need to be more disciplined and then your horse will follow. Then you get results and certainty. Horses love clarity and certainty. The are clearly "happier" when they are not fighting and questioning everything which they will do if you are not CLEAR!

This is a key moment for you, Op. Learn to be an effective rider, make your horse happier (in the end) by training your horse to go from light aids or fall into the rut of those who think it is kind to allow a nappy horse.

Apologies form my long slicky post but this is so key .

[Whisper]

I was in a similar situation in some ways last year. I had been part-leasing a teenaged TB gelding who would do 95% of what I asked, when I asked it, and we did pretty well in the shows we did in dressage, eventing, and H/J. Both my primary trainer (his owner) and my XC coach wanted me to move on to a different horse, because they felt I was too passive and settling for too little, and that he "breeds a passenger." When I was able to occasionally take a lesson on a different horse, they felt my position, timing, focus, etc. improved a great deal.

If you're both new to dressage, then it may indeed be very difficult for you to make progress together, unless you have a more experienced person ride her frequently. Getting in lessons on a more educated horse might be very helpful for you as well.

[cloudyandcallie]

If my goal was to progress my horse, I'd find a new trainer.

If my goal was to progress in dressage, and I felt this trainer was to take me there, I'd get a new horse.

I know people who've done both. It's totally a matter of priorities.

But my other question is, are this trainer's methods working for you? It doesn't sound like it, if you've been with her for a while and only recently figured out how to be dominant. Maybe the type who goes for quiet insistance would be better?

I think Ambrey is right. assuming you cannot afford a 2nd horse that the trainer woud pick out for you. some trainers want to select the horse that they like, but some just want you to do your best and are honest about your horse's limitations. which trainer do you have?

[slc2]

WWWWOW! You did it! Give yourself a big pat on the back - nice work!

[Feuerlilie]

Thanks SLC....I really appreciate your input....it really helped me clarify everything :)
Now I just have to keep up this work with her....but now I know what has to be done and it WILL get easier :D