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View Full Version : Selling a foal as a stallion prospect



avezan
Jun. 3, 2008, 10:23 PM
So, I have this amazing colt this year. I would love to see him stay a stallion and breed some mares to him some day! But in no way do I have the time, money or inclination to raise a stallion. Have you ever sold a colt as a stallion prospect with breed-back privledges? If so, how does that work? Since I think he would make a great stallion, he would also make a great gelding. So what would happen if he ended up gelded or sold to someone else? Just curious! Thanks!

Waterwitch
Jun. 3, 2008, 10:48 PM
So, I have this amazing colt this year. I would love to see him stay a stallion and breed some mares to him some day! But in no way do I have the time, money or inclination to raise a stallion. Have you ever sold a colt as a stallion prospect with breed-back privledges? If so, how does that work? Since I think he would make a great stallion, he would also make a great gelding. So what would happen if he ended up gelded or sold to someone else? Just curious! Thanks!

I usually include a certain number of breedings in the contract (typically 5-ish) for stallions or stallion prospects. The weanling contracts include a clause that the breedings are owed if the colt passes studbook inspection. I don't try to cover the horse being gelded or sold other than the first refusal buy back that I put in most of my contracts.

misita
Jun. 3, 2008, 11:13 PM
I sold a colt in late 2007 by Bravo/Bugatti Hilltop and out of Fuerst Honour/Fuerst Ramses/Bleep. He was named a "must not geld", stallion prospect by Christian Schacht, breeding director of OLD NA. I sold him as a stallion prospect and I maintain breeding rights to him should he become a stallion. I did come down on his price a little though to maintain those future rights.

Walnut Farm
Jun. 4, 2008, 08:51 PM
Wow, you retained all breeding rights Misista?

As a buyer, I would find that hard, after forking over 10K$ +++ for testing and approval. Anyway, good for you!!

I have retained 0-5 breedings for the ones I have sold.

Best of luck!

Linda

misita
Jun. 4, 2008, 09:21 PM
I did retain all breeding rights for my own mares only, and I have a small mare band. So realistically, I'll probably only use 5 to 10 anyway unless he becomes an olympian. Plus, I did come down quite a bit on the purchase price. It was more important to me to get this colt into a home as a stallion prospect than to get his full value. He's by my stallion Bravo AND he's out of my favorite mare who's 20, Fuerst Honour. So this colt was very important to me.

I have heard of people lowering the purchase price when they sell a stallion prospect in exchange for future breedings, but in the purchase contract it says if they geld him, they have to pay the money that was reduced, or they have to pay x amount of $$ per breeding for however many breedings were agreed upon.

siegi b.
Jun. 4, 2008, 10:02 PM
I think selling a weanling colt as a "stallion prospect" is typically based on wishful thinking on the part of the seller and sometimes encouraged by a breed inspector. Realistically, once the horse is 2-years old you may have more of a basis for that type of "prospect selling" . So reserving breeding rights on a weanling colt isn't exactly meaningful as far as I'm concerned and I certainly wouldn't reduce the price for such a thing.

Ladybug Hill
Jun. 4, 2008, 10:35 PM
Why would anyone buy a colt if all breeding rights are retained by the previous owner? That seems odd to me. If I were going to maintain a stallion and all the headaches, I would certainly want to benefit.

canwong
Jun. 4, 2008, 10:44 PM
I have encountered sellers in Europe wanting a certain number of retained breedings, and an additional amount of payment if the colt is licenced. Also, placing restrictions on where the semens can be sold to, allowing sale of semens only to places outside of Europe.

camohn
Jun. 4, 2008, 10:45 PM
When I bought the 2 stud colts I have had (the stallion we had and we bought back his last son from an outside MO when he died): the colt was purchased with the MO getting X number of retained breedings. The terms I have on it as the colt/stallion owner is that the breedings may be used for the breeder/seller's mares only without pre approval. The retained breedings may be sold but if sold the mare must be approved by me first. When standing Boomer we had a couple of totally insane mares folks wanted to breed to him, one with very crooked front legs (didn't want him blamed for it as a young stud if the foal got em), one that was bred too close to him pedigree wise for my taste.....so I wanted some control over the mare quality.

faluut42
Jun. 4, 2008, 11:38 PM
I think selling a weanling colt as a "stallion prospect" is typically based on wishful thinking on the part of the seller and sometimes encouraged by a breed inspector. Realistically, once the horse is 2-years old you may have more of a basis for that type of "prospect selling" . So reserving breeding rights on a weanling colt isn't exactly meaningful as far as I'm concerned and I certainly wouldn't reduce the price for such a thing.

I am not a breeding expert but really do agree with siegi b. I have seen more than a few outstanding foals turn out to be very nice, but not stallion material. And some foals that are maybe not as nice as the above colts, really turn out to be very nice stallions, they just hadnt grown into themselves. And Ive seen outstanding foals turn out to be outstanding stallions.

Foals just grow so diffrently and at such diffrent rates, I think that it is hard to truly guarantee a colt turn out to be a mature horse nice enough to reproduce. And to bank money (lower the price) on it would not be something I would advise. But like I said, I am not a breeding expert.

misita
Jun. 5, 2008, 12:35 AM
We've all seen alot of these things. Really outstanding weanlings turn out to be nice horses but not stallion quality. So-so weanlings turn out to be outstanding stallions. Outstanding stallions turn out to produce so-so foals, but never reproducing themselves, and nice, but not outstanding stallions improve almost every mare they touch.

I think for most people looking to buy a 'stallion prospect' as a weanling, they're willing to take a gamble on the weanling because it won't cost them nearly as much as a stallion propspect would at 2 or 3 years old.

For me, retaining some breedings, from this favorite outstanding colt (Brando), is mostly an emotional thing from my favorite mare who is 20. If I had a filly out of this mare (Fuerst Honour) I wouldn't be quite as tempted to retain breedings from the weanling. Also, this was before I had frozen semen on my stallion, so I loved the idea of breeding rights should anything happen to him.

So I reduced his (Brando's) price because I wanted him in a home where he'd be raised as a stallion prospect. But I also reduced the prices on Bravo's 2007, Premium offspring, because I wanted them in show homes. All four of Bravo's 2007 foal crop was sold to show homes.

From Faluut42--Foals just grow so diffrently and at such diffrent rates, I think that it is hard to truly guarantee a colt turn out to be a mature horse nice enough to reproduce. And to bank money (lower the price) on it would not be something I would advise. But like I said, I am not a breeding expert.

I don't think anybody is guaranteeing anything. The seller, buyer, or inspector is simply saying that this is an exceptional colt and we should see what he becomes.

I know quite a few people who have raised their stallion from a weanling. Some of these will make it and others won't. But don't you take a chance on every weanling that you buy? Some will be suited for what your buying them for, and others will not.

misita
Jun. 5, 2008, 12:52 AM
Why would anyone buy a colt if all breeding rights are retained by the previous owner? That seems odd to me. If I were going to maintain a stallion and all the headaches, I would certainly want to benefit.

When selling Brando as a stallion prospect, the buyer has ALL the breeding rights. I only have rights to breed my own mares. I pay for all shipping collection, vet bills, and so on for these breedings. The only thing free to me is the semen should Brando become a approved stallion.

carosello
Jun. 5, 2008, 07:32 AM
People can have the best of intentions when buying any prospect, just realize its not a guarantee he wont be gelded down the road.