Aggressive mare post foaling ...

[TrueColours]

A friend has a LARGE WB mare (17.2-17.3hh) in her late teens that did a surprise foaling out in the field yesterday with very little imminent foaling signs. This is her 3rd foal and the 2nd for her current owner.,

Last year's foaling went without a hitch, inside, and the mare was super protective, but would allow the owner to handle her and the foal, albeit warily and on edge. Strangers - forget it. They were met at the door with teeth, pinned ears and front and back feet. She did get progressively better towards strangers as the weeks went on and allowed the owner free access to her and her baby

This year, the owner is being met with teeth and feet and the mare is actively going for her with the front end and spinning and raising a back leg to her as well. With the foal being born outside, it took over an hour for the owner to gain access to the foal to treat its umbilical stump, with the mare circling it and actively going after her if she tried to approach either one of them in a not very nice manner

She is now experiencing what we all experienced last year with this mare and she isnt afraid to admit that she is nervous about it and doesnt quite know how to proceed.

Does she aggressively go after the mare to try and establish the *lead mare* role over her? I suggested leaving a short rope hanging from her halter that she could grab rather than always trying to get hold of her halter - good suggestion???

has anyone else encountered this and will this get better or worse and can she expect all foaling experiences to be like this forever?

She adores this mare and the mare produces phenomenal foals, but at what cost? If you end up being nervous about dealing with your own horse and concerned for your safety and the safety of others in the barn, is it truly worth it but then what for this mare who is approaching her twenties and really has no job OTHER than being a broodmare???

She is also now wondering if this is why the former owner, who had Foal #1 from her, got rid of her ... :confused:

Any/all suggestions would be gratefully appreciated and I will pass them on to her ...

[Silly Mommy]

If this is foal #3, she probably won't stop being aggressive for the first few weeks. I have one of those who gets the halter with a short rope left on for two weeks. She is easy to catch with treats/food/turnout time, and if I need to do anything with baby, she gets tied in the corner of the stall. Once we make the two week point, the mare could care less what you do to junior.

I make sure that the last few weeks before foaling, I give the mare some extra lovin and LOTS of carrots so she recognizes me as the carrot lady. I MAKE SURE the foaling is attended and get as much "hands on" with baby before she comes out of her haze, then I leave them alone. This year, the mare was really crampy and came at me when I tried to give her some Banamine - will make sure I have someone holding her if I have to do THAT again!!

Good luck to the MO, I wouldn't try to establish any sort of dominance with a new momma - it's too late for that and baby could get hurt. I believe she has a two person job when working around this mare for awhile though.

[Reiter]

One of my mares is also very protective the first couple of weeks! She's okay with me, but even I've gotten the ears back nasty looks in the first couple of days. I'm extremely careful around her at that time, make sure I don't get between her and baby and only go in the stall for cleaning and treating navel stump. After a day or two she's fine with me and I start spending more time with baby and after a week or two even strangers can approach her.
For your friend's mare I would suggest tying her up while your friend goes in the stall to clean, etc. and again, don't try to force any attention on her. Leave her alone with the baby as much as possible to bond and she should relax within a few days!

[asanders]

I worked on a breeding farm where the best mare (stakes winner) in the barn was a complete b#tch after foaling. She of course foaled in the field, and of course it was a colt. What a pair. Fortunatly, she had a healthy respect for the queen of the world (me) that we had well established before she foaled, but she did need reminding. I treated her the same way she was always treated --respect me and we get along fine, don't and we have a problem, and this has nothing to do with the foal. A foal should not really change the answer of what you do with a horse that is absolutely stepping way over the line (IOW, I don't really care WHY you are being a total rancorous b#tch, it is UNACCEPTABLE).

Over an hour to get to the foal?! Someone should have put a shank on the mare and had a 'discussion' about HER behavior while somebody dealt with the foal at the first sign of bad behavior.

The owner will have to separate dealing with the mare and dealing with the foal separate issues.

How much help is available? Do you keep a halter/slip on the mare/foal? What is their handling (going in and out etc.) schedule --how much are they going to be getting handled?

[okggo]

I worked on a breeding farm where the best mare (stakes winner) in the barn was a complete b#tch after foaling. She of course foaled in the field, and of course it was a colt. What a pair. Fortunatly, she had a healthy respect for the queen of the world (me) that we had well established before she foaled, but she did need reminding. I treated her the same way she was always treated --respect me and we get along fine, don't and we have a problem, and this has nothing to do with the foal. A foal should not really change the answer of what you do with a horse that is absolutely stepping way over the line (IOW, I don't really care WHY you are being a total rancorous b#tch, it is UNACCEPTABLE).

Over an hour to get to the foal?! Someone should have put a shank on the mare and had a 'discussion' about HER behavior while somebody dealt with the foal at the first sign of bad behavior.

The owner will have to separate dealing with the mare and dealing with the foal separate issues.

How much help is available? Do you keep a halter/slip on the mare/foal? What is their handling (going in and out etc.) schedule --how much are they going to be getting handled?


I agree with this. There is a line that is unacceptable for a horse to cross at any time under any circumstances. Nervous and protective over a new foal is one thing, trying to inflict serious harm on somebody is a whole nother ball game.

Edited to add, what she should do depends a lot on her level of horse skills and comfort. If she is scared to death of the mare, asking her to reprimand her is probably not the best solution. Getting somebody out there to help her may be. If it were me, I'd be having a lesson with this mare in who is alpha, but that is also well within my comfort level. If I were pushed out of it, I'd ask for help.

[Equilibrium]

Donna,
Since this seems to be getting worse and not better, your friend may want to enlist some help or sell the mare. Really they aren't much fun. I have one TB mare who had her first this year and turned into "marezilla" after foal was born. We have had her since she was 8 months of age so it's not like we don't know her inside and out and she never displayed any of this kind of behavoir previously. She wasn't a puppy, but she knew her place and had respect for humans.
We, too also keep a short rope on her halter for the first couple of weeks. Next year she will be kept on a rope before she comes out of her haze after foaling to make sure we get things sorted with the foal. We did get them sorted this year but without my husband, I wouldn't have. She will let us handle her but nobody else. She is now a mare I wouldn't give an ounce of trust to. Really unpredictable. She will lash out if things aren't going her way. She needs another mare with her to keep her in check, but since she killed my warmblood foal this year, that's not a choice until weaning. I have another group of mares she will be out with this fall and winter. They are a rough and ready bunch belonging to a client. She'll soon learn some manners then. Still not enough to risk putting another mare or foal with though.
Your friend really has to ask herself whether this mare is right for her. Most people want to breed not only for a nice quality foal, but to enjoy the experience. These types of mares are not going to let you enjoy much of an experience. If "Marezilla" was my one and only mare, or bred sporthorses she would have a bullet in her head by now. For now she gets to have a chance to prove her worth. We know her are able to deal with her and manage her appropriately, but in all honesty it isn't much fun. And also when she's acting the bitch with the teeth barred and trying to lash out, you do have to stand up to her and tell her whose boss. No niceness and mollycoddleing unless you like going to the emergencey room!

Terri

[camohn]

A friend has a LARGE WB mare (17.2-17.3hh) in her late teens that did a surprise foaling out in the field yesterday with very little imminent foaling signs. This is her 3rd foal and the 2nd for her current owner.,

Last year's foaling went without a hitch, inside, and the mare was super protective, but would allow the owner to handle her and the foal, albeit warily and on edge. Strangers - forget it. They were met at the door with teeth, pinned ears and front and back feet. She did get progressively better towards strangers as the weeks went on and allowed the owner free access to her and her baby

This year, the owner is being met with teeth and feet and the mare is actively going for her with the front end and spinning and raising a back leg to her as well. With the foal being born outside, it took over an hour for the owner to gain access to the foal to treat its umbilical stump, with the mare circling it and actively going after her if she tried to approach either one of them in a not very nice manner

She is now experiencing what we all experienced last year with this mare and she isnt afraid to admit that she is nervous about it and doesnt quite know how to proceed.

Does she aggressively go after the mare to try and establish the *lead mare* role over her? I suggested leaving a short rope hanging from her halter that she could grab rather than always trying to get hold of her halter - good suggestion???

has anyone else encountered this and will this get better or worse and can she expect all foaling experiences to be like this forever?

She adores this mare and the mare produces phenomenal foals, but at what cost? If you end up being nervous about dealing with your own horse and concerned for your safety and the safety of others in the barn, is it truly worth it but then what for this mare who is approaching her twenties and really has no job OTHER than being a broodmare???

She is also now wondering if this is why the former owner, who had Foal #1 from her, got rid of her ... :confused:

Any/all suggestions would be gratefully appreciated and I will pass them on to her ...

I have one of those. Fortunately she knows me and will TOLERATE me early on with snarky faces around her foals. Anyone else other than me (human, cat, dog, chicken.....you name it.....) is initially in danger of being bitten and or flattened. Usually it is bad for the first 2 weeks then she starts to chill out. Her foal now is 4 weeks old and she has settled back down. The first 2 weeks with her are a bugger though! But yes.....my mare is like this every year and she is 17. She is not a nasty horse by nature....she is just uber protective of her foals for the first 2 weeks.

[Donna D]

Put the foal on a nursemare. put the mare out to pasture. Save someones life. If the mare produces great foals, do the same thing next year. Y take a chance?

[camohn]

First of all is the mare out with her foal by herself or with others? If she is out with others I would not do that. That is going to make a super protective mare very defensive. Let her get comfortable with the foal in a solo turnout situation so she does not feel the kid is threatened. My uber protective mare also foaled out in the field with friends in attendance. There is NO way I tried to get her and the foal in with the others around. First I got all the other horses in her field in and away from her/put them at the other end of the barn. I left them out in the field for a bit for the filly to get her legs working well and then brought mom and filly in. Let the others out and got the stump treated carefully but mom felt more secure being in the barn alone. SInce I know she tolerates only me and is worse with others around I was better off not having help but keeping a careful eye on her. All her foal have no temperment problems/she is a great producer. This is just the type of mare that requires a certain touch at first; she trusts me an no one else. She does get better with time as it sounds like this mare has done in the past. I am only in favor of putting foals on nurse mares where the crazy mare is trying to harm her own foal. She is not a bad mother....just a very protective one. As someone else said...I would not force a whole lot of attention on the foal for the first couple of weeks until momma chills out. Again..from her previous history......it sounds like she will. And aggression towards the owner is certainly not acceptable.

[TrueColours]

Interesting responses - thank you. :)

I dont know her turnout / buddy situation with Foal #1, but with Foal #2, she was out with 2 other mares (both pregnant) and brought in each night, groomed, etc and she foaled out in the stall - attended. She was wary but fine with the owner on this foal, nearly killed the vet on Day 2 when he came to pull blood, met me with teeth and feet and a swinging back end at the stall door when I came by a few days later but she was always fine with the owner

Foal #3 was born outside and I believe the mare was with several other pregnant mares and she didnt have her halter on and kept circling the foal every time the owner tried to approach her or the foal and would meet her with teeth or the hind end swung around in her direction. Treats didnt work diddley squat. She then managed to grab the foal and in that way, ended up getting hold of the mare and brought them into the stall. When she went in to check on the mare and foal a few hours later, the mare apparently did come at her with her front end and teeth and the owner smacked her hard which backed her off and she was then permitted to attend to the foal

The owner is well versed in mare care, stallions, foals, good horses and bad ones. She's owned many horses over the years, taken her share of lumps and has no hesitation in getting as aggressive as necessary *IF* that is what this mare needs done to her. She was just stumped as to what course of action she SHOULD be taking with her that wasnt going to make a bad situation worse ...

I'll copy all of this and give her a copy so that she can read all of the suggestions

Thanks again!

[bwf]

LOL....I got one of these!!!!
I crawl in the stall when she is having it...treat it before mare is up....and crawl back to the door.

It lasts the first two weeks and then wears off. She even stikes at me..LOL.
Thank god she is the best mother as far as milk, birth etc. cause there is no way I could deal with her otherwise.

[camohn]

Fortunately Marezilla here also has very friendly foals. What worked for me the first 2 weeks is (once past the needed stump tx) is just to stand in the doorway that is open a crack JUST in case I need to beat a retreat (never have needed it) and I let the foal come up to me for handling. Mom is a lot less upset if the kid comes to me than if I am coming at her foal. Now that the kid is 4 weeks old when I call for dinner she takes off for the feed bucket and leaves the kid behind to catch up. What a difference a month makes!!

[camohn]

Oh...how to get an IGG from Marezillas baby
Mare and foal head for a stall. Mare goes in. Quickly close door, nab baby, get IGG and let her back in stall with Mom. Do not send vet into the stall with mare to tackle baby for a blood test!

[Equilibrium]

I will have to say, that my Marezilla's foal is amazingly sweet, respectful, and loves people. He is also very well put together and quite a craicer of a colt. So for that I am grateful and do enjoy him immensley. When the blacksmith comes I still have to hold this mare away form the people because she will still try and go after blacksmith when he's working on her son.

Terri

[amdfarm]

I agree w/ asanders, okggo and camohn.

I had a mare like this, too. She had all four of her foals w/ me. She was not treated well (teased) before I got her and she had a lot of trust issues from the get go, but we worked hard on that since she was in foal when she came to me w/ her first. She required reminders every so often and learned to respect me, as I did her.

She was one that didn't like human intervention or presence of any kind while foaling, so over the years she became more and more sneaky, like foaling between checks and the like. She was very good at that.

She did fine w/ her first three foals, only a little leery towards people the first few days and then was fine. But w/ the second foal she hadn't cleaned and I was a tad nervous of how she was going to handle me tying up the sac and such w/ a newborn (I got there just after the hind legs came out and she stood up the minute she sensed me there, got up too quick, my fault, not hers... she waxed for SIX weeks, I was getting a tad impatient waiting for that colt!) I was able to dry off the foal, take pics, treat the stump and then went on to her and she was actually completely fine w/ me being there and no issues w/ the tying.

She had her first, third and fourth foals in the pasture. I managed to get there after third one and she was still down, but the foal was completely out and trying to get up at that point. All of the other horses in her pasture made a semi circle around her to protect her and the foal. They never moved. I had my foal kit, towels, camera, cell phone and a flashlight and slowly approached to make sure all was well. And it was. She cleaned quick so no tying needed, I took pics and treated baby and all was well.

Now the fourth foal was a different story. She had only came at me one time w/ teeth barred, but I flew my arms up and came at her instead and chased her until she submitted. She came very close to taking a chunk out of my arm so whacking her wasn't going to happen, but she got the message and we made friends again. Fourth foal was a sneaky one. Missed it completely and was greeted at the gate by her and her new baby, she always did that, it was cute. Like here's my baby, what do you think? Did I do good? This time though, my parents and son were there (she knew them, but not like she knows me.) They didn't go in, but I did and tried to catch the foal to check and treat the stump, give probios and the like. She tried to come at me again and I was not happy w/ her. She wouldn't even let me catch her and kept taking her baby w/ her. I decided to leave her be and came back alone later and got the job done w/out any problems.

By day three or so, she would let anyone approach her and the baby. Cause by that time, the babysitting mare had taken over auntie duties and she could have cared less what you did w/ the foal. All of her foals were/are very friendly though and love attention from the start. Also very easy to train. I still have her last two and they are the sweetest boys.

[faluut42]

If my mare had meet me at the stall door doing that, she would have gotten a good punch in the nose without a second thought, unacceptable for ANY reason.

What makes me a little wary about saying go ahead, state your dominace, if the MO is scared of the mare, it might back fire. I agree with asanders but I also agree with okggo. someone to help her be alpha might be the best thing.

[siegi b.]

Some of you guys are pretty tough with your words....

A mare will protect her brand-new foal with her life - she's not trying to be nasty, she's just doing what her very strong instinct tells her to do. Newly born foals are totally helpless and mama knows that. I would question a mare's skills as a broodmare if she weren't protective those first few days...

And you can hit or punch all you want, you're not going to change that response. What you can do is as somebody else here mentioned - spend a lot of time with the mare that's close to parturition. Massage her belly, groom her, give her carrots..... You will be the first person she will let touch that baby if she trusts you, but you have to earn that trust and don't just assume that you're the dominant one and, therefore, the new mom needs to be submissive to you.

I try to be there for all births at my farm, I talk to the mare while she's have contractions, I stroke her belly, etc. I gently help with getting the foal out if it's stuck at the shoulders talking to the mare the whole time. I take the sac off the baby, I rub it down with a towel and then pull it around so that mom can inspect it. Then I leave them alone for a while to get to know each other. Once the baby is up I may help it find the "milk bar", I will tie up the placenta so that mare doesn't step on it and will dip the baby's navel. I'm very quiet and non-sneaky about it and the whole process just isn't a big deal to anybody.

Kindness will get you much better results than trying to establish your dominance while the mare's protective instincts are kicking in. I think I can honestly say that my mares actually look for me in the foaling stall.

Sorry for the long post, but this is a really important subject to me.

[okggo]

Siegi,
I dont' totally disagree. I expect an amount of protectiveness, I dont' think any of us are saying differently. And I agree with your tactic and treatment of mares. But if you had one (despite your efforts) decide that they did NOT like or welcome your friendly gestures and try to attack you (I'm not talking ears back or fretting or even an idle threat, I'm talking OUT TO HURT you) I absolutely would not accept that behavior period. Maybe you think it is okay for a horse to try to attack a human b/c of "new mom protectiveness" but I dont' think it is acceptable for a horse to attempt physical harm on a person period. Never. And yes, I hold firm to that and perhaps am a hard a** in that regard, but my life is way too precious.

I had a friend with a mare who would turn on them. This wasn't "new baby" protectiveness, it was "I dont' want you here" and she on more than one occasion sent them to the hospital. That is NOT okay in my book. And that is what I am talking about in my post. If the mare is of that degree of danger and she is not comfortable handling her solo, I still think she needs to call in help and firmly correct the mare and let her know that behavior is absolutely not allowed.

I am "assuming" by the OPs post and explanation of the owner, this is beyond "normal" mare protectiveness and has crossed the line to dangerous. Maybe this assumption was incorrect.

[Fairview Horse Center]

My mares are not allowed to make snarky faces at a human, period, much less act aggressive. I would let them know in no uncertain terms that it is not acceptable. I am there at birth, helping them to foal, drying the foal, helping it to nurse. They totally accept me as family. I scratch the foal's butt, they "scratch" their mom, the mom gently "scratches my hand with her upper lip. Very sweet.

Not being allowed to protect the foal from me OR another human in no way stops them from protecting it from other horses, etc.

If I have a foal with a problem, and I am by myself, I need to know that I do not have to watch my back. I also want to know that if I am leading or grooming a horse by the stall, the mare is not going to attack if I growl at her to stay back.

Vets come in to pull a foal's IgG and my mares are loose. I am holding the foal in a corner, and the vet's back is to the mare. He needs to know his life is not at risk.

I do have one mare that does not like people in with her for the first week or so, but she only tries to circle in between you and the foal - casually. You almost don't realize she is doing it. It does not stop me from handling the foal, but I don't pester them as much as the rest. She is actually fine once the other horses are turned out, so it is more that she doesn't trust me to protect the baby from them, and worries if I am in her stall, taking away her "control" of the situation. I do accommodate her feelings whenever possible.

[siegi b.]

Darlyn - I guess you said it better than I could.... The OP's situation was one where the mare foaled in the field I think and the mare was in fact circling the foal when a person approached. We probably don't have enough information on exactly what transpired, but I can tell you that I would have restrained the mare first of all and then would have tried to tackle the foal - probably in the privacy of a stall. Going after the foal with the mare running circles around you just isn't a smart thing to do. We also don't know how many other mares were in the same field, etc. etc.

So I still think that the mare's reaction was probably in keeping with her environment. All of my mares allow strangers in their foaling stalls, but then they've never had a bad experience that told them otherwise.

[siegi b.]

... and okggo - I didn't mean to ignore you.... Yes, I would try to teach an aggressive mare how not be so, but most likely while she didn't have a brand new foal by her side. If I didn't succeed then I probably would not breed such mare.

[Equilibrium]

I agree with FHC and Okggo. This isn't just normal protectiveness we are on about, these are mares that will down right endanger your life. Not ok in my book. My Marezilla is ok with me and my husband, but she will still try and hurt someone else who enters the box, vet or blacksmith. So, I'm sorry but it's not ok. And playing nice and pretending it's all fine and well as she is only protecting her baby, isn't on. I do not interfere with mom bonding with baby, don't try and mess with the foal too much at all except do the basics because it is the mare's job. But certain things do have to be done and safety is always the first concern. I'm not advocating punching mare's whenever you want, but ears pinned teeth out gets this response. All horses get treated with respect here, but respect is a 2 way street. And lets also accept horses don't ever have to be mistreated to act this way when a foal arrives. My marezilla was here since she was 8 months of age. There was never any indication of aggressivness in her during any part of her growing up. She was well adjusted, lived in a herd both here and while racing. Racing didn't change her, she came back with the same personality. She was always very easy to do and very respectful. Yes, I'm sure hormones play a part, but after 3months with the foal and back in foal she should be over it and she's not. It is a subject near and dear to my heart too. And I actually don't think you can understand how these mares are until you are dealing with a truly aggressive one yourself. Because there is a big difference in aggressive and protective. Thankfully, I believe the truly aggressive ones are few and far between.

Terri

[Fairview Horse Center]

Yes, I would try to teach an aggressive mare how not be so, but most likely while she didn't have a brand new foal by her side.

I think that is a big key. I begin with regular manners. My horses are not allowed the snarky faces when grooming, tightening girths, checking udders, etc. I establish rules way before foaling.

I had a boarder that bred their mare, and I had to foal her out. She had horrible manners. I was upset when the mare one day lunged over her owner, knocking her down, while grooming in the aisle, to bite a horse in a stall that was hanging it's head out. The owner got up LAUGHING, saying, "my you ARE in a mood today". I told her she needed to get some manners on the mare, because I did not want to be in a position of beating the mare in the stomach when she was 10 1/2 months in foal, when I was checking her in the middle of the night. The owner's attitude was that her mare was allowed to be "moody" as she was pregnant. I then told her to move the mare, as I refused to foal her out.

[okggo]

They were met at the door with teeth, pinned ears and front and back feet.

This year, the owner is being met with teeth and feet and the mare is actively going for her with the front end and spinning and raising a back leg to her as well.

actively going after her if she tried to approach either one of them in a not very nice manner

the owner tried to approach her or the foal and would meet her with teeth or the hind end swung around in her direction. Treats didnt work diddley squat. She then managed to grab the foal and in that way, ended up getting hold of the mare and brought them into the stall. When she went in to check on the mare and foal a few hours later, the mare apparently did come at her with her front end and teeth

All quotes from the OP (just FYI) so we are comparing apples to apples and siegi, totally agree with your last post.

[Fairview Horse Center]

They were met at the door with teeth, pinned ears and front and back feet.

This year, the owner is being met with teeth and feet and the mare is actively going for her with the front end and spinning and raising a back leg to her as well.

actively going after her if she tried to approach either one of them in a not very nice manner.

That is when a plastic pitchfork would come in REAL handy!! :yes:

[hessy35]

If you can get through this foaling ok, I'd spend some serious bonding time with that mare before you breed her again (owner bonding time). She seems to have trust issues.. that's my guess.