Is my kid slow?

[Life is an Event]

Although my thirteen year old daughter has been riding for nine years she has been taking dressage lessons for about three years now. She is just starting Second Level work. She only does one licensed dressage show a year because she does eventing and pony club as well. At these shows she rides in open classes and scores anywhere between 57% to 71% and usually is one of the top three placings. Judges describe her and her horse as elegant.

Quite a few of her friend's have just recently started riding dressage with another local dressage instructor. Their instructor tells them they will without a doubt be solidly riding at first level by the fall. Their horses are green and are not what I would call "exceptional movers".

So is my kid slow? I have had people tell me my daughter would do much better with a different instructor (however the judges seem to like what they see), but I think this other instructor is just telling my daughter's friends what they want to hear to keep them as clients. Is it common for riders to move from Training through first level in less than a year?

[rileyt]

Are you serious? Or just looking for some pats on the back?

What do you think?

[Carol O]

It sounds like you are on the right track with your daughter's riding and training. Scores and comments like the ones you describe confirm it.

[Life is an Event]

I'm totally serious. I know it is hard to say how long it should take to move a horse and rider up the levels, but one year to get through first level seems fast. I think people have a lot of gall to say my child would do better with a different instructor. I don't have the nerve to tell them that I think their trainer must be taking short cuts which will hurt them in the end. But then again, we don't live in the "dressage" world, so maybe I am the one who is naive.

[exvet]

In all the years I've ridden and shown dressage I can't even try to count the number of adults who have stayed at training level for years and years, let alone pay any attention to the length of time it takes someone else to get from one level to the next. I've always focused on my riding, my progress and that of the individual horses I have ridden/owned. There is no set timetable. Knowing that I do not try to hold my daughter's riding/progress to any specific timetable or measure it against anyone else's. She was progressing faster with a "made" horse but he unfortunately died. So as luck would have it she's had to "start over" with a very green horse and is back to the intro/training level. Now both the horse (who I ride and train) and my daughter are focusing on the very basics. I quite frankly couldn't give a rats patooties if anyone else feels they should be further along. They'll get to the next level when I feel they are each ready. My daughter will have access to a Prix St. George horse next year but guess what......I'll be having her start at 1st level [again] and work her way up as she's able to master the skills necessary to do so. Eventually she should be able to earn her bronze on this horse but whether it takes 2 or 3 or 6 years.....who cares and whose business is it?!

[merrygoround]

A few yearsa ago alocal farm owner was telling me about their "great" instructor, who was going to take them to compete at horse trials, etc. etc. That was 15 years ago.

The trainer is gone, the students, even then were miles away from ever being competent at that level. People would much rather hear how great they are, rather than an honest estimation of their capablity.

Always someone ready to resell the Brooklyn Bridge!!!! :) :)

[CatOnLap]

IME, those kids who start riding very early, as yours did generally do not have much advantage over those who start in their early teens. Those young kids enjoy riding BUT- they generally don't have the focus and concentration that dressage demands, but even more importantly and unavoidably, they are growing so fast that its like they are learning with a new body every time they get on. Anyway, the emphasis in any sport for youngsters should be the fun and health of it, not how high the level or how they compare to others.

It is not unusual to see someone who started riding at 12 catch up with someone who started riding at 4, within a year or two.

As for getting to first level in a year? There's no challenge in that, with a decent horse and instructor. Before they invented these training and walk trot levels, that's where everyone started! My very first show ever in dressage, was at Basic 3- or second level, after only a year of dressage instruction on a green horse, and yes, we placed in a large class.

An exception I know whose parent was a sort-of BNT, who drilled them in dressage from an early age and who had opportunity to ride FEI schoolmasters from the cradle up. That person was competing internationally for a team by the age of 16, but simply was not nice to be around.

[honeydoozy]

Their instructor tells them they will without a doubt be solidly riding at first level by the fall. Their horses are green and are not what I would call "exceptional movers".

... Is it common for riders to move from Training through first level in less than a year?


First level is pretty basic, and the thing that seems to make people struggle most is mastering that darn sitting trot. :cool: Kids probably don't struggle as much as those of us who are more, uh, "life-experienced" (read: old and crunchy). So yah, it seems reasonable to have the kids working at 1st level this year.

Though it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be all that *good* (or competitive) there...

[canticle]

If you daughter is eventing, that would indicate she really knows how to ride. So who cares what level she is? She's also doing pony club so she is learning about horse care as well. That is invaluable.

A lot of people can move up the levels of dressage quickly, but the true measure of how advanced you are is being able to use these skills outside of the ring. Showing doesn't really mean anything in the long run. It's just for fun. :)

[cac182]

Perhaps rather than considering switching trainers you could participate in clinic with a very well respected clinician and get feedback. Are clinicians’ thoughts comments consistent with that of your trainer? Perhaps even videotape and go back and discuss with your trainer. Does your daughter feel good about her progress and enjoy her trainer, both paramount to continued success! I think kids who work hard and maintain a level head regarding what "level" they are at is true gift and sign of maturity that should be commended!

[slc2]

it's really impossible to say for sure without being there and seeing things over a long period of time. Usually when the question comes up I feel like I have to defend the kid. Kids do mature and grow at very different rates, especially between 11 and 15. But here are some ideas.

1.) Alot of instructors DO exaggerate how quickly someone can move along. It's a sales technique.

1a.) Some instructors really CAN move kids along quicker, but usually this doesn't mean a casual, once or twice a month program. THe progress, even with the best trainers, is usually within a very intensive frequent program, and may include riding some of the instructor's horses, having the instructor ride the child's horse and demonstrate more clearly to the child how to train the horse, etc.

2.) Alot of instructors also just teach 'tricks' without good basics, and kids win at small local shows where the competition isn't tough.

2b.) 'Tricks' are not easy to identify. They can look very appealing and you may be surprised at how difficult it is even for experienced people to know who is 'legit' and who isn't.

3.) In many areas, Pony Club events aren't very 'competitive' in dressage - winning alot in pony club activities may not mean much as far as how correct the instruction or riding is, or how good a basis is being laid down to allow a kid to compete in open competition or later as an adult.

4.) Second level is often described as the biggest leap in dressage until you get to Grand Prix (Olympics). Second level is where collection is learned, and must be demonstrated. The leap to second level often takes twice as long as other steps - or more. That move is something even very experienced adults struggle with.

5.) An average for someone working intensely and continuously in dressage, getting good quality instruction several times a month or more often, is about a level a year, but kids training their own horses with infrequent lessons, especially those retraining not-so-suitable horses from another riding sport and diluting their work with other pony club activities, can take much longer and still be doing a good job.

6.) A 'popular instructor' who is likeable and fun, may get kids winning at a local level, especially in limited shows (pony club, etc), and not be teaching correct dressage at all.

7.) Kids may progress much slower with a really top notch dressage instructor who insists on putting them on the longe line and developing a strong seat and fitness in the horse, and doesn't let them 'do tricks' just to please their parents.

[ozjb]

As the mom of a very keen young dressage rider (she is 12) I can only tell you what we have experienced. I think kids can get pushed up into higher level tests by instructors or by momma who is the one actually schooling the pony or horse. I don't have a problem with that since it's the way of the world.

We chose a different route because my daughter stayed on her 11.2 pony until now. The pony was your typical first pony but because my daughter is little she didn't outgrow her pony. And the pony turned out to have a LOT of talent. Who knew?? If my daughter weren't growing, she would still be schooling and competing this little dynamo. Because of the pony's size who else was going to ride her? LOL

I am very happy that my daughter has had lots of time competing at what we (in Australia) call Preliminary and Novice levels. She has learnt how to be accurate and how to ride corners. She has had time to learn arena craft. She has had time at these lower levels to get really confident. She rode her first Elementary test a few months ago and commented on how many more movements there are in these higher tests. But she was ready to do them. I'm thinking our Elementary might be Second Level since I have noticed a huge drop in entries at this level! And collection is in there.

I know that there are lots of kids who will start later and be well able to catch her and pass her. Of course they will. It's a lot easier to learn this stuff at 15 than at 8. You learn it quicker because you can.

But at 10 (the earliest kids can ride Officially here on ponies) you don't have the nerves to deal with. She got used to riding in the big venues and big competitions before she got old enough to worry too much about it. She also has an older sister, so got drug along to clinics and doesn't get fussed about having a lesson with some fancy instructor.

So, the new pony is an old schoolmaster who will teach her a lot. I doubt he'll win too much, but will take her through our Elementary levels as he is quite well educated. I am happy for her to stay in that level for as long as it takes for her to be able to really understand what is happening.

Both ponies also jump well and we do all the Pony Club stuff including Mounted Games (so our ponies have to be pretty well rounded!) but her favourite thing is dressage. She has a goal to eventually be selected to one of the State Young Rider Squads, but that's a few years off as far as I am concerned.

Horses and ponies have to move up through the levels so I figure kids do too. Reading slc2's post made me realise just what a gem we found in our coach!

[Touchstone Farm,Ky]

There are so many more important questions than how fast an instructor takes her students through the levels. Is she someone who is a good role model for your daughter? Is she kind and does she prduce kind students who value the horses' well being along with their own. Is her facility and lifestyle a wholesome place for your daughter to hang out? Does the instructor have a good work work ethic and does she expect it of her students? Does your daughter live to get there and come home happy... At the end of the day the life skills she learns are so much more important than the level she's riding. Its sounds like she is progressing just fine <s> JMHO

[meupatdoes]

It's really hard to say without knowing the program the kid is in.

My brother's daughter is 11, is smart, athletic, and brave, has been riding since she was like 6 or something, and can barely canter down the longside.

I went up and watched a lesson and died a little on the inside because the lesson was in the form of an 8 horse snake and half the snake limped.

I ask my brother how the riding lessons are going and he's like, "Eh. Slowly. She's still learning to canter. I think she just needs to get bigger to be strong enough to get the horse to go."
Pointing out that 76 pound 8 year olds can lope my 16h 6yo ottb around a 3' course with all the changes and nary a miss would probably not be the most diplomatic answer to that.

If she had Aunty Meupatdoes as an amature instructor on my horse, within a year she'd be doing the Children's Eq.
As it is? She limps along at the back of the snake.

So, basically, it all comes down to the program. Some programs go too fast and are really shitty because of it. Some programs don't have the quality of instruction to teach anyone anything.

It can be really difficult to evaluate a program if you as the parent or fledgling student don't have experience with different parts of the horse industry. If competition is a goal, the best advice I can give is to compare what ALL the students at your program are capable of and what sort of success they have in the showring, with how the students from other programs do. If the barn shows a lot, but rarely brings home any prizes, they are probably underqualified compared to everyone else. By now I would pay the airfare if it would get my brother out to the pony hunter ring at WEF.

Also, some programs are more suited to one stage of a rider's education than others. For example, my niece could start out and have initial success in the Come-Ride-Aunty-Meupatdoes's-Horse-and-then-go-for-icecream program, but for Pony Finals I'd be the FIRST to send her out to someone qualified to teach that.
Keep your eyes open so you know if it might be time to move on.

EDIT to respond to Touchstone without making a new post.

I'm all for drug free, alcohol free barn environments with well-mannered people, but it is a barn, not Jesus camp. No matter how wholesome the environment, if the quality of instruction is shitty, it is a waste of time and money. Of course the environment must be positive and the people involved good role models, but the instruction MUST ALSO be quality. Based on my one visit to my niece's barn, everyone there is lovely, kind, and friendly; they have a list of safety rules seven miles long, nobody would EVER cuss (gasp!), and everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya, but all of that is wasted because the program is CRAP. People can be lovely and friendly and QUALIFIED too.

BOTH aspects are non-negotiable. You wouldn't send your kid to a math tutor who couldn't add just because they were nice and held hands and led math prayer before commencing to teach. You wouldn't say, "Oh, well, kiddie still can't add after seven months of tutoring, but she is learning life skills!"

[goeslikestink]

Although my thirteen year old daughter has been riding for nine years she has been taking dressage lessons for about three years now. She is just starting Second Level work. She only does one licensed dressage show a year because she does eventing and pony club as well. At these shows she rides in open classes and scores anywhere between 57% to 71% and usually is one of the top three placings. Judges describe her and her horse as elegant.

Quite a few of her friend's have just recently started riding dressage with another local dressage instructor. Their instructor tells them they will without a doubt be solidly riding at first level by the fall. Their horses are green and are not what I would call "exceptional movers".

So is my kid slow? I have had people tell me my daughter would do much better with a different instructor (however the judges seem to like what they see), but I think this other instructor is just telling my daughter's friends what they want to hear to keep them as clients. Is it common for riders to move from Training through first level in less than a year?

read your own words in 1st paragraph--- shes being placed is she slow nope and your instructor you using has got her there, with the help of her horse

jealousy plays a big part in what people see and what they want,but have they got the stuffing to get them to where your kids at probably not so guess what

they shout about it that they can do xyz to undermind you or to throw you off balance
me

keep doing what you doing and ignore comments --
your daughter is getting placed which means shes not slow and has a nice position and is a caperable rider

[Equa]

Most importantly - what does your daughter think? Luckily she also goes eventing, which keeps even the craziest DQ sane.

There is no specific timeframe in which you should move up the grades (or not). Many times it can also come down to luck. What horse you happen to have. Does it stay sound? Do other things interfere with "progress" - sometimes growth spurts in kids can affect their balance and co-ordination.

If you daughter has access to a PSG horse - why MAKE her start at the bottom? OK, doing "tricks" isn't what dressage is about, but it sure does make it a lot more fun sometimes. I let my daughter ride my FEI level horse when she was 12 - but she also rode her own home-schooled out-grown pony, and her new eventer, and did PC and games etc.

It didn't turn her into a screaming DQ brat, she didn't "break" my horse, and she didn't have any wild competitive ambitions with him. And it was no big deal. (In the big scheme of things, no-one else notices, and no-one cares!). But she DID get a good feel for the fact that the fun stuff is merely an extension of the ongoing athletic development of the horse, and that "the tricks" do not require special inside-secret-dressage-trainer's-business (and all the attendant $$$$ and bulls**t) to be able to ride.

[ozjb]

Equa,

Not to highjack this thread, but what do you think about kids who just sort of start in the middle?

A friend of mine's daughter decided she wanted to do dressage. Family has the money and she went from not ever doing much dressage to a pretty advanced horse. I thought it was a big ask for a 13 year old to suddenly find herself sitting on a powerhouse who knew his job. He taught her a LOT but they never were able to compete very well because she got nervous and he lost the plot. So, now (18 months later)they are looking at imported models for her. Big moving horses. I might be jealous because we can't afford to buy such a super horse, but how do you know if a kid is really ready? Is there any benefit from "starting at the bottom"?

And I worry about the pressure from the peanut gallery when word gets out that this kid is sitting on a super expense horse. The expectations are going to be huge. I love my friend and her daughter is a delight, such a hard worker, but this seems wonderful on the one hand and too hard on the other.

My daughter does get to ride our coach's PSG horse occassionally. He's a gem and tolerates her mistakes and it's been super for her to be able to "feel" those upper level movements. And also to have a horse respond to her aides, especially the wrong ones! She thought she asked for trot but got piaffe! Too funny. He shows her her mistakes, in a kind and gentle way. I love this horse!

I am pretty much a novice at all this and am learning as my daughter moves along. I need the advice of other riders and parents of riders to help me make the right choices. Or at least to understand what the choices ARE!

Thanks so much.

[exvet]

I might be jealous because we can't afford to buy such a super horse, but how do you know if a kid is really ready? Is there any benefit from "starting at the bottom"?

I have seen more than a few "just out of YR, juniors" who because they learned on ONLY made horses have never mastered the skills needed or the challenges faced with horses that have to be made from scratch yet because they've ridden all the way through the levels believe they are a trainer. I think there is a lot to be gained/said by learning and mastering riding skill (seat, hand, leg, timing and feel) on a made horse but I also think once done there is a whole 'nuther level of education to be mastered by starting at the bottom. Of course we would all like to give our children a "made" horse for their own safety and enjoyment but it isn't always possible. The key is how we continue to emphasize the positive points, bolster their confidence and highlight what accomplishments they've made by starting at the bottom if they do/must....of course trying to make sure they're able to do it in as safe of a fashion as possible too.

I think the problem whether we're talking about kids or adults is recognizing and holding realistic expectations given the players involved and not getting trapped into the "got to have it now fast-food/McDonald's dogma" so common in every thread of society. Horses, kids, adults all learn at their own rate and shouldn't be expected to conform to one specific timetable. The measuring stick should be "has your horse improved?" and/or "has your riding and understanding improved/advanced". If the answer is yes regardless of how big or small 'cause if you've trained horses you know it varies from case to case....then what is the issue? As for whether or not they're ready, well that's a little tougher imo 'cause with a kid, or more specifically a teenager as in my case, you have to assess both their physical skill level as well as their emotional/mental coping mechanisms. I know my daughter is madly in love with her greenie meanie who despite being green is very safe. She gets frustrated for sure but when asked if she wants to sell/trade the answer is always "No". That tells me she is ready.

[Life is an Event]

Thanks for everybody's comments. While I know that we have good quality instruction and am happy with my daughter's progress, I just needed a little feed back from others who aren't trying to get us on their bandwagon and join on with the newest "in" trainer. I am finding it hard to keep smiling and keep my mouth shut as I get all kinds of advice from so many well meaning people.

I know my child isn't slow, she rides three to four horses a day, events, hunts, and does games. We are fortunate to be financially able for her to clinic several times a year.

But why, why, why do people think we should try their trainer, when their own children have barely even wet their toes in dressage. My policy is to say nothing unless I have something good to say about other riders and trainers. I am afraid they will be disappointed when a year goes by and their child and green horse are still at Training Level...when it might be the appropriate progress for the pair. But that's when I think, maybe I am wrong and they have a magic instructor or horse.

So, since I get tired of their two cents, I figure they don't need my two cents either. The venting is now over. Thanks!

[Mozart]

Seems you are happy with daughter's progress, daughter is happy with her progress, she gets good scores so she must be getting a firm grasp of the training scale...sounds like it ain't broke.

As for other people. Time for nod and smile and topic change. Or, as I have learned from the southerners since joining this board..."Well bless your heart" :winkgrin: