Suggestions for the dominant horse with no go?

[Lemon Zest]

I have a mare with no motivation to move forward on command. She will stop on a dime and buck if the whip is applied (with acceleratng violence if the smacks continue). Strong leg produces a similar though less explosive reaction. Spurs – forget it. I’ve had some luck carrying a rope and slapping her on the shoulder with it, but this is not a manner I care to rely on. We’ve even recently had to revisit manners in hand when she decides to walk at her own pace (a snail’s crawl) or not walk at all, which I suspect has cropped up as a result of the new and very green barn help. This horse does not miss opportunities to test the boundaries or take advantage. She has plenty of energy to play in the pasture and run like a lunatic for no reason. She has plenty of energy to fight. She is incredibly quick to resume her best behavior in hand when faced with consequences. I just cannot find a way to similarly get through to her that go is not negotiable from the saddle. She has lots of forward energy when she feels like it, but riding on her “slow” days mostly results in bucking temper tantrums, and those tantrums are dangerously explosive.

Tips? Advice? Has anyone else dealt with this?

[Daatje]

I experienced some of that behavior with my mare, between her 4th and 5th year. She had no forwardness undersaddle, and would balk at any opportunity. She was not reactive, like yours, however. I could use whip, spurs, I even tried the rope on the shoulder as you have done, and got simply no reaction at all!

I'm not sure how to deal with the stubborn/dominant nature combined with that kind of sensitivity/reactivity.

Turns out, I was squeezing too much on my mare, blocking her front end while being "blurry" with my forward driving aids. This rut I had gotten stuck in totally shut her forwardness down. We spent a year and a half working on clarifying my forward driving aids and working on her responsiveness.

She is now more forward then I could ever want, and responds to the lightest of aids. I just had to learn how to be a better teacher!

Where your mare is violent, and mine never was.....I'm not sure how you would analyze that behavior. I would be concerned that something was bothering her physically for her to become so violent at the forward aids......

If it's not a physical issue, and rather a mental issue.....I really don't know as I haven't encountered that before.

I'll be interested to see if anyone else has dealt with a horse that exhibits violent resistance. Good luck with her!

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Lemon Zest;3258489] She has plenty of energy to fight.

find a trainer

[xQHDQ]

I am a chicken so I would do groundwork. How is she to lunge? Put her in side reins and really make her work on the lunge - not just run around. I bet she'll try the same stuff but at least you won't be on her back and you can get after her with the whip. After she realizes that she can't get away with it then she'll probably quit it.

However, she'll probably try it all again when you get on her, so I highly recommend you have someone on the ground with the lunge whip in a closed in arena - she'll know by then what the whip means. It will be scary the first couple of times (speaking from experience) but she'll get the message that you mean business. Eventually (and slowly - don't rush it) fade out the person with the whip. You should then always carry a dressage whip and all should have to do is wave it or lightly tap her to remind her of the lunge whip.

Or... hand her over to someone who can ride out the bucking.

Good luck.

[Lemon Zest]

Go is not an issue on the longe actually. She does pull some stunts in hand, but as I mentioned in my first post she is relatively easy to convince that it is in her better interest to behave on the ground. If there is a chiropractic issue, my wonderful chiro has not found it. The horse does not exhibit soreness. Saddle fit is good.

This is why I find myself at my wit's end and also why I feel rather alone with the problem. I have ridden with three trainers with this horse and two clinicians. Only one clinician has ever been willing to ride her. This clinician ended up discplining her in hand for a much longer time period than he was on her due to the mare's very bad attitude. I have worked with longe assistance, been chased, and allowed things to be thrown at us when she's sucking back. Comments from trainers, observers, and friends have ranged from complimentary of my handling to suggestions involving rodeo, dogfood, and France. The trainer I currently ride with (and this trainer will not ride this horse) would probably throw a party if the mare suddenly disappeared or dropped dead. Skillwise, riding out the bucks is neither a problem for me nor an intimidation. It's just old and frustrating. When does it end? How does one convince megawitch that she will accept the leg/whip and that is final? Is it possible? Most buckers suck back to buck but otherwise keep going. This one grows roots, leaping and spinning from a virtual standstill. Lack of go is the cause of the bucks, but I feel like I have no angle of attack on go.

Edited to add: Response to being chased has included bucking, ignoring, and (embarrassingly) rapid backing and double barrel kicking at the chaser but very little forward influence. Throwing things at her did have some productivity, however.

[Elegante E]

My first suggestion would be to get help. My second is to work her on the lunge as well. Lots of voice commands which you can use in the saddle. Demanding obedience and response, then praise for good behavior.

I have a gelding who's gotten decidedly lazy this spring, just five, as I'm asking him to work longer and harder. He also bucks at the whip but not enough to affect my seat. He's fine for the first 15-20 mins then wants to shut down. For him, I've also found riding, getting the good work, then lunging aides his stamina and I can push harder. I did go back to lunging him before riding just to get forward before going to lunging afterwards.

I've also used the rubber band work with someone chasing him with a lunge whip - get him going more on the long sides then letting him catch his breath on the short before pushing him again on the next long side. This can be dangerous with the wrong horse. So may not be something you'd want to try.

I have a dominant mare I'm working with who has hissy fits. Doing more complicated work at walk helps me prove my dominance from the saddle without as much risk of making her explode. Turn on the fore, turn on the haunches, squares, LY, ground poles. Things that make them think about their feet and listen.

I've also had luck with the tapping heel: tap tap tap. Get any response, and relax. Then again till they respond.

PS: you responded while I was typing, so just ignore stuff you've already tried :) Btw, at my age, I vote sell and move on but I'm old and tired.

[Reiter]

Okay, you say she doesn't have the problem on the ground or at least you can make her go when she does, so I don't think more longing or groundwork is really going to help!
She has your number when you're in the saddle!
If you are sitting out her bucks and you are not afraid of her, then MAKE her go! Don't use the rope on the shoulder, use a nice, thin, stinging dressage whip. Ask her nicely (seat and leg) to go forward, no response, smack with the whip. Still no response, smack harder and when she starts bucking smack again until she moves forward! If you don't feel comfortable doing this find a trainer that will! She has the upper hand right now while you're riding her and until you show her you are in charge on the ground and in the saddle this will only get worse! Be careful!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Diskretion]

This happened to me once !

My boy would just not move. He must have been part donkey 'cause he was REALLY stubborn about it.

So, instead of trying to force him into moving forward with the whip, I said... OK, so you don't want to go forward, let's turn instead - this worked really well for us.
By forcing him to turn, his neck would bend and eventually he had to move his front legs and then I'd use that opportunity to get him moving again.

Took a few times... but he eventually figured out that it's easier to just listen and go forward than to have to turn in such an ackward manner.

And this method was gentle...

[ideayoda]

Were are you using a tap to go forward? Worst of all would be to use a whip (behind the leg). Imho a noisy bat on the shoulder. Are you staying upright or falling forward? Steady connection??? But I would also deal with it differently if that is not successful.

[Tallac]

Send her to a cowboy before she hurts you.

Maybe Dressage isn't her thing maybe she should be a trail horses or a pasture pony.

I have a horse I am dealing with right now. I got a few months ago because previous trainer could not move her up the levels. Goes great at training level. The minute I try to take more contact to ask for a tiny bit of collection or a turn on the fore hand anything beside a straight line walk trot canter, she rears. We have done Vet checks, Chiropratic work, acupunture, everything to make sure she wasn't in pain for some reason. The rearing is bad and I won't ride thru, so I told the owner we can try to take her to a cowboy to see is he can get this out of her, if he can't she is going to given away or turned out to pasture. WAY to dangerous, and once they learn these ways of getting out of work, they can turn just plain nasty.

We took her the cowboy he got on, up she went he rode thru it, worked her somemore, up she went. He looked at us and said she is spoiled, We left her there for a month. hopefully he can work thru this.

Be careful you don't get hurt or hurt someone else trying to help you. Its really not worth it. Find yourself a nice calm horse you can enjoy and cut your loses before something bad happens. IF you don't want to give up on this horse for wahtever reason find a kind cowboy that can help you. Seriously.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

try teaching her to jump....cavaletti (sp?)....get her out of the ring and out hacking. I've also found ponying off another horse out of the ring helps get them going forward. Some horses go much more forward in open spaces and then you can recreate it in the ring as they have gotten the go button more confirmed (and stronger).

If she is stopping dead and planting....I found turning worked best as well.

Perhaps she is just board. Mix it up a little. I have two mares...and while you do have to assert yourself...if you make it their idea, it generally goes more smoothly.

[mickeydoodle]

My first thought is life is too short for such frustration, sell her or give her away (full disclosure obviously). Why deal with this over and over when there are horses with much nicer attitudes around.

My second thought is absolutely do not breed her! this attitude should not be passed on.

My third thought (and forgive me if you mentioned this already) is Regumate or Depoprovera. You might give hormones a try to see if this improves her attitude. (mares do not have to be only "marish" to respond to the hormones)


But I really vote for new horse- it is so fabulous to ride a cooperative one.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

This one grows roots, leaping and spinning from a virtual standstill. Lack of go is the cause of the bucks, but I feel like I have no angle of attack on go.

Edited to add: Response to being chased has included bucking, ignoring, and (embarrassingly) rapid backing and double barrel kicking at the chaser but very little forward influence. Throwing things at her did have some productivity, however.

I didn't see this...I had a chestnut mare like this.....named Sybil (well that became her name) Spinning in a circle when she planted worked to a point but not always. This mare was an event horse with three lovely gaits....would jump a 4 foot course with ease but not trot a 20 meter circle with out a hissy fit. She was safe though...she would never do anything that was going to hurt her...but incredibly frustrating. It took me a year to finally give up and sell her. She became a very happy jumper.

If what I posted earlier about mixing things up, jumping and getting her out of the ring doesn't work....Sounds like you need to find her a different job. You may jump her and find something she enjoys far more....at least with Sybil, I new she loved to jump....and loved to jump big so that made it pretty easy to find her another job.

[horsegirl123]

I had a mare that sounds very similar to the one you are working with. The more we worked her the more she would stop on a dime and explode. I think she was telling us something. Long story short we found that she had some back end issues so we she is now a momma and loving her new job. I am not saying that is what is wrong with your mare but you might consider looking into it. Good luck and keep us posted.

[slc2]

Lessons, a trainer, or both. If she's 'got your number' and you're afraid to push her on you'll need some help.

Some mares I think need more separation of leg and hand and don't go forward unless that's really emphasized.

I don't feel jumping or trail riding are guaranteed to resolve a problem of not wanting to be obedient to the leg during arena work. Avoiding the problem may not solve it.

I don't feel a 'cowboy' is always the best choice. A dressage trainer who can teach the horse to go forward to a contact may be far better if the goal is to ride dressage.

[Merle]

try teaching her to jump....cavaletti (sp?)....get her out of the ring and out hacking. I've also found ponying off another horse out of the ring helps get them going forward. Some horses go much more forward in open spaces and then you can recreate it in the ring as they have gotten the go button more confirmed (and stronger).

If she is stopping dead and planting....I found turning worked best as well.

Perhaps she is just bored. Mix it up a little. I have two mares...and while you do have to assert yourself...if you make it their idea, it generally goes more smoothly.

I agree with everything said here. ;)

[Ajierene]

I am going to reiterate some of what has been said already - from the view of a trainer of 'horses with issues'. I have spent a decade working almost solely with horses that other people cannot work with because of some problem such as bucking, taking off when mounting, rearing, etc.

With a dominant horse you have to win. With this horse, you will have to sit the buck and whip the mare (I would pick a dressage whip, behind the leg) until she gives up. Give yourself 2 hours of fighting the first time. It may not take this long, but it gives you an idea of what you will need to prepare for. Basically you need to be more dominant than your horse - this does require some stubbornness, confidence and possibly a certain degree of stupidity.

If you have been working in the ring for a while, she may just need a break - a day of jumping small jumps, a trail ride, ride around bareback and just have fun, etc. My mare gets a bit testy if we don't 'mix it up'. Nothing nearly as bad as yours, but many horses, just like people, need a bit of variety in their life.

She may just not like dressage - this is more likely if she acts up more often. A thoroughbred filly at my old barn would not break out of the trot at the race track - she would gallop at home, but not at the track. Someone who shouldn't have decided to teach her to be a hunter. The mare did not like jumping. She wanted to be western pleasure (we didn't do dressage where I rode in high school) - she would swish her tail if she thought you were aiming her at a jump and the closer you got the more intense the warning until the bucks started.

It may be a reaction to being in season - some mares, just like people, get a bit sore and achy when they are coming into or in season. This may effect her willingness to work and/or go forward.

If she is not acting like this all the time, I would think it is the second or fourth reason. Look into when she does this - is it roughly once a month- every 28 days or 4 weeks, etc? Is it random? If it is on a regular intervals, it is probably hormone related. If it is somewhat random, she probably just needs more breaks from 'working'.

[Equa]

Do a full lameness work-up. It is usually physical. We can spend thousands of hours and dollars on horses that are actually unable to move forward because of genuine physical problems that require serious intervention. I have seen this happen often, And I have seen unethical cowboys be quite prepared to work with lame horses - and blame the horse's "bad attitood" instead. Sensitive (dominant?) horses can be very attuned to their own pain.

I have just gone through this with a friend, who spend years trying to move forwards - literally and training-wise - with an attractive, 10 year old gelding. She gave him five star care and attention - including paying for regular massages for her "baby". He started bucking her off, and when she got a cowboy in to help, he harassed the poor lame horse around the round-yard, stated that he was untrainable, and tried to sign my friend up for a $3000.00 course on his own school horses!

When I convinced my friend to have a good equine vet look at her horse, she was understandably devastated by his findings of significant joint deterioration and inflamation in all four fetlocks....Horse is now a paddock ornament, and a very happy one.

I hope it is not the case with the OP's dominant mare - but it is best to rule out the obvious. And most issues are in the lower forelimbs!

[mickeydoodle]

It is not always physical! I have a wonderful little Dutch horse who will work his heart out even if he has only two legs. His attitude is yes, I will try to do what you want, he never says no. I know this in the face of a suspensory problem that put him off for 9 months. He never said "no" just kept truckin' along but I felt something not quite right, and the diagnosis (MRI confirmed) was hind suspensory.

Some horses are just not made for dressage, not made for forward. Get a more cooperative horse. Ride with joy, do changes, do lateral work, do pirouettes, look for a horse who enjoys dressage training, enjoy the ride.

[cheekyhorse]

I know it's already been said, but GET SOME HELP!! Get a cowboy on her to make her go, before you get hurt.........and you WILL!! She needs to be taught that it is in her best interest to GO when she is asked. This can turn VERY dangerous, mares like this are notorious for flipping over on people. Gotta get help from a professional. Trust me, it's not worth getting injured!

[Heinz 57]

I read most of the OP's posts on this thread, and skimmed the others, so forgive me if this has already been asked or suggested.

She works well in hand, but poorly under saddle. Have you tried lunging her with a rider? Obviously, the rider would have to be you. The person on the other end of the lunge line would need to be VERY quick and VERY skilled, both at getting out of the way if she targets them and at using a lunge whip effectively. If you started out with the rider being just neutral, with the person lunging asking for the forward, how would she react? I mean no influence at all coming from the rider, simply just a person sitting on her back doing as little as possible and just staying with her.

Obviously, you would then slowly progress to the point where the rider, still on the lunge, is asking for the forward, with the lunge whip there to reinforce if she gets sticky.

She may be a witch, but maybe this progression would break it down enough to acclimate her to the whole 'go' thing undersaddle? I'm just thinking of how you might connect the dots from the good in hand work to the under saddle work.

Good luck.

[jumpytoo]

Another vote for the Cowboy ! Someone with god hand needs to get to the bottom of her since she has gotten away with this too long and has you buffaloed. No point in you taking the chance of getting hurt and she know you will give up. Let the4 cowboy work her for a month or so and you go over and have a few lessons that.. just riding around and reinforcing his work.. this will help your confidence too.. and hopefully you will end up with a horse worth riding .... and feeding.

of course selling her and moving on to a horse worth your time, commitment and $$$ is something to think about as well.

Good Luck, hope you keep posting and let us know how things are going :))

[Daventry]

I agree with what EVERYBODY is saying. I'd go back to square one and start over.

First, GET YOUR SADDLE CHECKED by an experienced saddle fitter. Not just by your trainer, and not by your chiropractor. The bucking means something and is often a sign of pain. Being reluctant to move forward can also be a huge sign of pain somewhere.

Second, REALLY get her physically checked out, and not just by your chiropractor. Your mare is trying to tell you something. Maybe she's just a "crazy bitch" :lol: but, if not, she's likely got a pain issue somewhere like her back or hocks.

Third, get her teeth checked.

After ruling out any physical pain or discomfort, she needs to be started over with from the ground up. As several have suggested already...send her to a cowboy!! Someone who is going to be able to teach her some proper manners on the ground and teach her that she is NOT the alpha mare around humans. She needs a gutsy and strong rider who can make her learn the word FORWARD and can stick it out until she "gets" the concept. Otherwise, someone is going to get seriously hurt. She needs to be restarted on the ground, she needs to then be restarted in the round pen, sacked out and ground driven and then ridden properly.

If she has been unfortunately ruined and spoiled from a young age, it may not be fixable. A good, knowledgeable cowboy will be able to tell you that. Unfortunately, not all horses are suitable riding horses or have the temperament for pleasing humans! And, not all horses are suitable for amateur riders either.

And God forbid, if she's deemed a pasture ornament and not fixable, whatever you do, DON'T breed her. :no:

Good luck!

[ride-n-tx]

The OP didn't mention how old or how big the horse is. I know of three mares and 1 gelding that began their riding careers by planting all four feet in the ground and refusing to move. By the time they were 7 and 8 years old they were all going nicely forward and progressing in dressage without complaint. All of them were warmbloods so I think a lot had to do with mental and physical maturity. Some horses are very slow to mature and it can be easy to overload them.

I agree with everyone saying that the first thing to check would be physical health and comfort, but it is not always the cause of the problem. Sometimes the only thing you can do is have a little patiences.

[jmbnsyd]

I have a TB gelding I purchased off the track and had some of the same problems. I finally stopped attempting to ride and focused on ground stuff. This horse appeared fine on the ground, until you really asked him to do things..yeild front and hind end, side step, go over, under, through things. This was all a battle at first. With time, I got back on him and we walked, trot, cantered both directions...with a willing attitude!

My message here is even though you think the ground manners are OK...they probably still need fixed. Work her intensly on the ground before you ride and see if that helps her dispostion under saddle. Be careful lunging too much...lunging requires no thought on the horses part and can sometimes just create a fitness that will bite you in the butt later.

Other people mentioned sending her to a cowboy...which I think is a good idea...BUT it sounds as if your mare is exceptionaly smart and very dominate. She is going to know who she can outmanuaver and who she can't. Sending her away isn't going to help if your communication with her stays the same. Check out some natural horsemanship videos and stuff...understanding equine behavior is so very facinating (to me anyway) and can be very helpful when you have the displeasure (or pleasure) of owning a challenging horse.

Whatever you decide good luck and remember to think of you and your horses safety first!!!

[dwblvr]

I was wondering what kind of horse this mare is? To me, that makes a difference with how I ride a stubborn horse like this. I'd rule out any pain issues, saddle issues, etc. like everyone else has said and if those check out fine, send her full time to a trainer, but one that works well with mares. Mares are a much different beast than geldings in my opinion. They can be very sensitive and don't deal well with major power struggles or constant battles. all it does is make them p'd off and you wont get anywhere. I'd also do a lot of work in hand on the ground with her. Good luck!

[mzm farm]

Here is another "method" I was taught. I am a bit of a chicken and had a big horse, somewhat dominant that was like your mare. Did well with the trainer, but had my number.

Here is what I did (under supervision) that worked: cue forward very lightly with leg only, then leg + touch with whip, then leg + smack; if no forward resulted, repeat sequence until I got reaction/forward. Do it rhythmically, no emotions on my part, no tension, no voice, etc.

This let the horse know what I wanted, predictable behavior on my part, not enough to really cause him pain or "make" him, but definitely let him know that I really insist on going forward. At first it would take a number of "requests", then he got the point sooner, and finally he decided that he can go at a slight touch of leg without having to endure the "thinking" process. The trick for me was to carry out the sequence with 0 emotion, kinda like a fence, I am just there and when you move the irritation goes away. By not going beyound a certain strength of cue, I usually got not such violent reactions at the beginning of the process. Plain "nagging" or "fighting" were not working well at all. He was plenty happy and willing to fight.

Good luck.

[philosoraptor]

Please find a professional. It's not that you're bad trainer.... it's just that something you're doing isn't working for her, and it's time to get an fresh pair of eyes to figure out what the problem is.

This may sound trivial, but don't blame the horse. In her mind, she's got a good reason not go forward, and it's a good enough reason to risk being swatted with the crop. Is she confused or untrained? Is she getting conflicting signals? Does she have pain, discomfort, or physical restriction that discourages forward movement? Does she act this way in a different saddle or bareback?

How is she with groundwork? From the ground, does she move forward willingly on cue?

[Marieke]

I bet lots of trainers/cowboys can fix your problem, and as soon as she is back with you, it starts all over again. She has gotten away with it, will again. So it is either you or her. Your choice. What has happened is you aid, she bucks, you back off your aid, so she has you perfectly trained.

I would listen to MZm farm and Ajierene. Expect to get on her for hours, and don't stop untill you get what you want (it always turns out to be less time then you think), and have 0, absolutely 0 emotion about it. Like you drive your car, imagine a stick shift, you put it in first gear, foot on the peddle, you go, if the car sputters, you still keep the foot on the peddle and go. You don't get mad at the car, or do you? If you do, then never mind ;)

Aid clearly, expect a response, and don't quit till you get that response.

mean your aid, expect a response, and next time just do it again

Dominant horses love a challenge. Do not get sucked into a game. It is not personal.

[Marieke]

PS I remember my cousin years ago. On mare that was very dominant, and would have the biggest bucking fits when asked forward. He got on, asked to go forward on a loose rein, she trew a fit, bucked, leg on, buck, leg on, buck, leg on, buck leg on etc. He calmly lit a cigaretty and smoked it as they were carrering bucking around the indoor. He never stopped putting his leg on, he kept on asking to forward in a canter, every buck was met with the aid. My cousin, a heavy smoker to begin with, smoked 2 cigarettes on the left hand, 1 cigarette on the right hand. She did learn, and was faster on the 2nd hand then the first.

When she got it, he praised her lavishly, like she was the star. I believe it took him a week, they later won the national championships @ 5'. Eventually that mare would do anything for him.

[goeslikestink]

Please find a professional. It's not that you're bad trainer.... it's just that something you're doing isn't working for her, and it's time to get an fresh pair of eyes to figure out what the problem is.

This may sound trivial, but don't blame the horse. In her mind, she's got a good reason not go forward, and it's a good enough reason to risk being swatted with the crop. Is she confused or untrained? Is she getting conflicting signals? Does she have pain, discomfort, or physical restriction that discourages forward movement? Does she act this way in a different saddle or bareback?

How is she with groundwork? From the ground, does she move forward willingly on cue?

agree with mays

[goeslikestink]

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=151217

read this it simular to your problem do not smack you horse but encoruage it
read my posting with half halts and to use kick and click, and then continue with training the horse with lenghtening and shortening its stride..for it to become balanced and forwardgoing

its a common problem and most of the time a rider error not the horse

[Kathy Johnson]

You will never be dominant, and you will never "win." A cowboy will never "make" her go. Force and pushing the issues are going to get someone hurt. This is a big control issue. We are never in control of a horse, no matter how much we wish we were. We communicate with horses; we do not control them. They outweigh us 10 times. Everything they give us, they give us because they want to, not because we want them to.

The bottom line is that the mare must want to work for you. If she were mine, I would start over as if she was a weanling. Go forward in hand, praise lavishly. Quit before you encounter resistance. Make every session very short, and very sweet. Work her in hand twice a day 10 minutes. If she is giving you the least bit of resistance in hand, it is going to get worse on the longe. If there are issues on the longe, they will be worse under saddle. I heard "getting better" in hand, but I did not hear "wonderful." The issues are no doubt related.

It will take a full year to start her over. The smoking trainer who did it in a week had clearly trained a horse like this before. I believe he did it in a week, but I wouldn't risk the lung cancer! She will need to be completely desensitized to the whip , then taught what it really means on the ground. The spurs will need to be reintroduced properly, and used for their real purpose: engagement, not go. Right now, the whip, the spurs, the ropes all mean one thing: punishment and an invitation to the fight. It's going to take someone who's done it before. That is why finding a trainer to help you start her again is very important.

[slc2]

I don't feel it necessarily means starting a horse over or taking a year. Some horses, perhaps, but hardly all or even near that.

The key is to get some fresh eyes on it and for the rider to do something different than what he's been doing. He may have to change his age old habits, habits as a rider he may not even be aware he has.

These things don't have to be all that bad. I rode a horse like this and after just a couple rides the horse was a totally different horse. It was just a matter of getting out of her mouth and consistently going forward.

Some horses are just much more easily 'stopped up' than others. I don't feel the solution is 'tricking' them by putting a horse in front of them or going on a trail toward home. They have to learn a fundamental rule - leg means go. It's so simple, that's what makes it so hard for some people.

[EqTrainer]

I think this can be one of those issues that is either a training issue or a discipline issue and it is very important to understand which one it is before proceeding.

If the horse was taught from the beginning to go forward *freely* and has decided she no longer has to go (and there is nothing wrong with her) then it is discipline issue. That is when you had better be prepared to go to battle. I rarely disagree with Kathy but this time I do... because those horses find forward to be conditional, and it always comes back to bite you in the butt later.

If she was not started correctly than yes, she clearly must be retrained from the beginning. That is when you are very careful to not confront the issue until she is ready and can understand what she is being asked to do.
It is important to remember that if a horse is started incorrectly *he does not know that* and he thinks he is doing what he is supposed to be doing. He did not read the book. Incorrect initial training can be some of the hardest to overcome because the horse was an open book when this was written on them. So he may not necessarily be thrilled when you begin rewriting his chapters.

[Halfpassfarm]

Have you tried putting an older horse in front of her? Or even ponying her?

I agree with the tack issues, but don't like the 'leg on' means forward. I have found with my more sensitive dominant mares, teaching them to go forward using the seat immediately when we start them under saddle gets a much happier response. Use the Ride with your Mind techniques, where the seat bones feel/create each gait. Some young horses really drop their backs when leg is applied- it can always be taught later when the horse is going forward.

One quarter gelding I had, we used the ground person with the whip- it worked but he never got forward until I took him out and had a horse gallop in front of him. taught him to lengthen his trot to keep up with the lead horse this way.

It might really be worth just taking the mare out hacking- with a buddy, or in a different arena.

Having said all this, the biggest thing that works is changing whatever your doing and keep trying different things. Some need to be worked in a looser rein, some need to have their heads turned back to the riders knees, while being told to walk- to throw them off balance- which gets them walking forward or at least sideways:). Just about every horse goes through some form of this as a baby. Most it doesn't take much to restart them, so riders don't even realize it's the same problem.

Even if you think your saddle fits- try another one. I've been amazed at how many time's that changes the horses attitude. Same with bits, make sure they aren't holding their mouth open and fighting the bit. If the horse is, make changes until they aren't. check teeth etc, you may even try some bute before the next ride. If the mare is better while on bute there may be a lameness issue that isn't obvious.

One really strange problem I had was a filly that kept looking slightly lame. I kept blaming her bare feet, until I was watching her being ridden and saw blood! Her girth while it looked like it was well away from her shoulder was hitting the skin underneath the elbow and cutting her!!! Got a much longer girth, a sheepskin girth cover and she didn't take an off step after that, and was a beautiful forward mover.


Also never ride the mare by yourself. Starting horses is a 2 person job, there always needs to be someone on the ground observing to help fix problems or even just point them out.

Rachel

[cuatx55]

oh my, I have one of these. They can be a pain in the a$$. Yes, my saddle was part of the problem. Yes the horse was lame (arthritis), yes I needed a new trainer (one who didn't love the whip so much)...but mostly it was me dealing with it for 3 years and getting a good plan mentally. Don't override, don't react. Keep the mind busy, never over-face these girls. (Keep in mind my saddle had been fitted initially and I was in a regular program. Things aren't always obvious!!!!!)

My new trainer understands how to get results with out pissing her off. If my horse was younger or the bucking at the whip had gotten much worse I would have put her in full training. These mares are smart and know exactly what they can get away with.

i ALMOST quit thinking this was not going to work, but then we hit a turning point and I got hooked up with the new farrier, trainer, and new saddle fitter. GET SECOND OPINIONS, not everyone is what they seem.

Good luck!!!!!!!!!

[EqTrainer]

FWIW, Mary Wanless/Ride with your Mind is emphatic that the horse must go forward from your leg. Your seat then molds the energy into what you want it to do. But go from the leg must be 100%.

There really is no way to reinvent dressage. A horse who doesn't go forward from the leg has often taught the rider to use other parts of their body actively so that those parts are no longer available for more subtle work. The seat is a great example. I have seen so many horses who did not go forward from the leg, and would only go if you "asked" with your seat which meant you disengaged your seat from being effective.

Learning to follow the motion, and then to be causal with your seat is not the same as it replacing forward from your leg.

[slc2]

my friend went to morven park and said there was an old guy who taught there who did things like leaping over cars and through tree forks.

supposedly, every time someone came up to him at a clinic with a problem horse, they would go into a long, long long long discussion of the horse's history and all the problems and things they were trying and he would say, 'just kick the god damned horse, and if it doesn't go, hit it with your whip until it goes'.

and he would be right, LOL.

of course i don't suppose he included a guarantee of 'and you will not get planted on the floor'.

[lstevenson]

Your seat then molds the energy into what you want it to do. But go from the leg must be 100%.

There really is no way to reinvent dressage. A horse who doesn't go forward from the leg has often taught the rider to use other parts of their body actively so that those parts are no longer available for more subtle work.



I agree completely. Go has to be from the leg. The seat cannot be producing the "go", as it has to be available for many other applications when moving up the levels in dressage.

The leg creates the energy, the seat controls it and dictates the rhythm.

The #1 lesson for any horse in any discipline is go forward from the leg. If it was skipped then it needs to be re-addressed.

To the OP, in this situation I like to help the horse succeed in moving forward from the leg by bridging it to a voice aid on the ground. Teach the horse while ground driving or lunging that the noise of the cluck means GO FORWARD NOW without question, by using a lunge whip. If you are clear and consistant, using the cluck and then the whip, the horse will bridge the two together. And then moving forward from that noise will become an automatic response. When that is good, get on her with a ground person with a lunge whip behind you. Cluck (with no leg on at this point), and have the person on the ground move the whip behind her. When you have the right reaction to the cluck noise while on her back, put your leg on and then cluck to bridge those two together in her mind, at first with your helper on the ground as backup.

Good luck!

[Bogie]

I don't disagree with what's been posted before, especially the full physical and saddle fit check. I also think that double lunging or driving might help you more than just lunging. Establishing voice commands might also help.

However, I have another approach that might work.

I had a horse that might have been like your's, but not as aggressive. When you got on him, he would refuse to move forward and would kick out at the leg or stick. He never really bucked; he chose a passive resistance. This was a horse that had been used as a school horse and he was completely sour and pissed off at the world so he'd just decided not to play.

What finally worked for me was to come at it from a completely different perspective. I knew I couldn't beat him into submission, so I made his game less fun. When I got on him, I asked him to stand still. He thought this was a marvelous idea for the first few minutes and then he wanted to move off. I wouldn't let him. I made him stand for another two minutes and then asked him to move off. If he was resistant, I would ask him to stand again until he thought he wanted to move, but not let him go until it was at my request. The trick was to not let him engage in a struggle and not to lose my temper. Pretty soon he decided that he no longer liked standing still unless it was his idea.

Actually, once I broke through the "I'm going to stand here and be a jerk" at the beginning of the ride, his progress toward being a pleasant ride was pretty quick. I think giving him a completely different response and not letting him be in control of the situation confused him. He turned into a marvelous horse and was very sensitive and responsive to the aids once he "tuned in".

Good luck and stay safe!

[Sabine]

I am assuming that your mare is physically well and sound ....you haven't posted or answered questions posed before so it is unclear as to what we are dealing with -
Assuming she is completely sound and free of physical issues I would engage the best NH trainer in your area and turn her over. She has a BIG ego and has not met her equal yet. Riding and training can not start- unless she has learned that there is a partnership and initally that there is a certain degree of submission. Once she has learned that lesson- you can (once you are trained on how to maintain that dominance) take lessons from any good trainer.
It's not about dressage training- it's about tolerating a human in 'her' space and respecting 'your' space....and it's about energy and power.

[faluut42]

I had a Haflinger gelding that was very lazy, and would ignore your leg. At one point I just said this is riduculous. Put some spurs on, if he didnt go when I asked the first time, he got firm kick. He never got spur rubs, or anything like that. It just made him jump. Took me a few weeks, but ever since he has respected my leg.

Having a horse that doesnt respect your leg can be just as dangerous as a horse that doesnt stop.

[DeLovely]

Sorry you are in that situation with your horse--how frustrating!

Well, it may be impossible for us out here in cyberspace to really figure out what is going on with your horse. I agree with the last post that said that a horse that won't move forward off the leg is as dangerous as one that won't stop. It is kind of like the first letter of the alphabet that one has to learn in the language or horse and rider.

For whatever reason this seems to have become a BIG issue. I hope there isn't something physical to blame that is not apparent. If seen horses misbehave in all kinds of ways that turned out to have unseen physical roots (kidney stones, ovarian cysts, etc) It is so hard because they can't tell us, but aside from that possibility, here are my two cents thrown in:

If it were me, I'd try to avoid the argument and establish positive habits rather than jump to the cowboy treatment first off. I'd try what others have suggested. First I'd establish forward in response to voice cue on the lunge. And once the horse is absolutely obedient to that, I'd add a passive rider. Once the horse is moving forward obediently from voice commands from the voice of the person on the ground, with the rider on board, than I would add rider leg, at the same time as the voice cue. I would do all of this in small steps that encourage and set the horse up to do the right behavior. Eventually, you'd give some leg as the primary aid and then right after, you'd have the voice cue and body language from the ground person to back it up. And eventually progress to the rider giving leg and voice cues for forward without the help of the lunge person. All of that might take a long time, I'd do it in baby steps and reward positive behavior no matter how small, making sure that the reward is actually something that has meaning to the horse. Of course along the way, I'd incorporate little actions in the groundwork, that require the horse to be submissive without actually provoking any war of wills. Rewarding the horse copiously for when things are going positive.

Of course, no matter what you do, there may be some times when the horse just will choose to rebel, and yeah, I'd guess there are some fights you must win. In that case, get the cowboy to come ride her. But just as it is with people, most of the time, fighting leads to more fighting. If it is possible to achieve the same result without conflict, that would always be the better way to go, even if it takes a longer.

Last of all. Nothing to really anything to do with anything--but somehow your post made me think of this video I saw on YouTube the other day. Another example of a horse who has decided she doesn't want to to go where the rider wants and then she doesn't want to go forward and is going to voice her opinion on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAhBxV_mnNk

Good luck and be safe!!

[Kiss This]

PLEASE get an intensive physical work-up by a qualified vet FIRST.

Let me share a story, which mirrors yours, of a horse that I own.

I bought this horse and for a few months and she was willing to work and happy. After a few months, her bad behavior came almost out of nowhere and got progressively worse. First, she started balking. Then, after I asked her to go forward, she began planting her feet and refusing to move. This progressed to planting her feet with pinned ears, wrinkled nose, swishing tail, kicking out, swinging her head around and biting my foot (!), and eventually bucking, then bucking violently, then running backwards and bucking. You get the idea. Even worse, she began rearing. Not just little hops - BIG rears - nearly flipping over. Everyone was baffled - she seemed docile before all of this. I admit to being green myself. This was my FIRST horse that I owned. I had only taken lessons/leased some schoolies (well I also broke a lot of ponies and started young horses - I was a small, scrappy little rider, but this young, extremely gifted warmblood mare was dramatically different). I was too inexperienced for such an athletic, young horse. I also look back and think regretfully of the poor-excuse-for-a-trainer that I was riding with at the time. Truthfully, she should have known better than to let me get such a nice horse that I wasn't ready to deal with yet, but I digress.

Anyways, this bad behavior continued. I followed said trainer's recommendations of trying to beat it out of her for months (sadly, I really didn't know any better!). We tried the dressage whips, the lunging, the lunge whip with me in the tack, hollering at her, and smacking her between the ears when she reared. This yielded small improvements, but something was still not right (obviously!). We began looking for physical pain as the cause for all of this (and I cannot even explain how much I WISH we did this FIRST!!!). It kills me to think that I was being so rough with a horse that was mostly just telling me that it was in pain! These things made a huge difference in the horse's behavior:
1) We had a dentist come out to do her teeth. Turns out the mare had a severe diaganol bite. (http://www.nwequinedentistry.com/Diagonal%20Bite.jpg) The previous owners' dentist never mentioned this to them and it was not mentioned on the PPE (why not, I have NO idea!). This took a few dentist visits to correct, but even after the first treatment I noticed less resistance under saddle.
2) Had a saddle fitter out. Turns out that I was using a saddle that was FAR too narrow on the horse (was using a rear riser pad to "correct" the fit of the saddle since is was sloping backwards. I now know that padding is NOT a solution! The saddle was pinching her wither area very badly). A correctly fitting saddle ended up making even more of a difference in the horse.
3) Took a close look at her diet. The mare was getting skinny so the (also incompetent :mad:) barn management increased her grain to put weight on her - again, I didn't know better. IIRC, she was once up to 4 qts of pellets twice/day aka a LOT of grain. I did some research and really reduced her grain and added beet pulp and corn oil for calories. Guess what? Another step in the right direction. Turns out that part of the problem was that mare just had SO much energy that she didn't know what to do with herself so she blew up under saddle.

All of these things made drastic improvements in the horse. With more work and much learning on my part with new trainers (not these yahoos I started with :rolleyes:) the horse is a great equitation horse who really loves her job. She is VERY intelligent (every trainer that has ever worked with her has been impressed by her intelligence and spunky personality... but channeling this personality and making it work FOR you rather than against you is how you get a great show horse!). She is still a dominant horse so she requires a reminder sometimes that I am the boss. Yes, she still tests me sometimes. She is also naturally a bit behind the leg. She requires a knowledgeable rider who will be firm with her if she tries to test.

You've gotten some great responses about how to deal with re-training her, so I won't get into all of that (other than saying that she needs to RESPECT you). Do feel free to PM me if you have any questions, however, and I'd be happy to try to help (I've learned a LOT. My horse now lunges perfectly on voice command when she used to spin around and bolt and/or double-barrel kick at my face!). I just want to emphasize how important it is to rule out pain first and foremost and then and only then address the issues as if they are behavioral.

GOOD LUCK!

[Marieke]

The seat is a very educated tool, if you start using it on young horses, especially your seatbones, you are creating back problems. It is like some people mount from the mounting block and 'plop' in the saddle like it is a seat while expecting the horse to stand still. Personally I can strangle people who do that. ANd if you do not make horses aware of all of you, then can, when you accidentilly touch them too much, blow up in your face, simply because they are not used to it. You need to be able to touch them all over from the ground and the saddle. IT is best to make them aware of your leg as soon as you get on. It is not fair to surprise them.

Horsemenship is leadership. A good leader will be followed and listened to. A good leader has his ducks in a row, a good leader doesn't negotiate, but does listen and adjusts the path if necessary. Leadership has nothing to do with dominance. The herd follows the leader, and trusts her/his instincts to perserve their safety. Your horse must trust you. And you must trust the horse to do what you expect.

If you make a horse do something, you will have to make him do it again and again. Much less energy if you teach them and let them be.

And some horses do want leadership over humans, it is like teenagers talking back to parents. The trick is to have a meaning full relationship with out crushing the others personality.

As for my cousin and smoking BLAHHHHHH I hate it. But he doesn't take anything personal with horses. He gets on, teaches them what is expected of them, and expects them to respond. But issues can be resolved within a short time, if consistent, fair, and honest. The horses know what is expected of them and are completely happy with it.

[EqTrainer]

Marieke, I completely agree :) particularly about the damage a seat can do to a young horses back. I see so much pushing, grinding, ugh, it just makes me cringe for the horse. The seat modulates what the leg makes.. the seat should not be being used to make energy. If you've made enough energy from the leg, the seat will be working to be quiet, not active...

and the smoking man? I have no doubt the horses love him. Horses are like children, they really do want to be told what to do. My very dominant, not always confident (when he was young, he is confident now) could have easily been ruined by someone who wanted to be his friend first and his leader second. We are very good friends now and have a wonderful partnership.. because he trusts that I will tell him what to do and how to do it.

[slc2]

I agree with Marieke about using the seat on a horse that isn't sufficiently built up in the back to react in a positive way. It takes a lot of back muscle before the use of the seat would not backfire. But there are ways to passively set a rhythm, to hold the middle body, without 'sitting hard'.

[Hidden]

I went thru this with a Gelding. Last summer my gelding decided he could bully me by not going forward. He didn't rear, but would kickout and go backwards if I popped him. I spent $$ on having his saddle checked, his back worked on and vetting completely because I always want to check for pain first. Unfortunately this turned out to be a very specific "to me" situation. Others could get on him and he would not react the same way. So I had to do what scared me (and he was so well aware of it scaring me) and just get on him and make him move off my leg - pop and ride out the kicks and mini bucks till he went forward. I won, but it was a hard fight for me. He was being a bully plain and simple, he still trys the other end of that resistance, going too fast now and again as well. But that is easier to deal with for me. I don't know that going to a cowboy will help because you have a smart mare and she will likely know who is who, and what works for her with each person - like my gelding. If this has been going on for so long with this many trainers I have to say I would suggest sell and move on. It was no fun for me and the sell idea definately crossed my mind last summer.

[Iride]

I didnt read the whole thread and maybe this has been mentioned, but have you looked into whether the horse may have ulcers? Believe it or not, many horses with ulcers don't show the typical signs (for example, I know many horses with ulcers that are cool as a cucumber and eat all their grain but when a rider gets on and uses leg (which releases acid into the stomach, hence painful for the horse, hence resistance) it is obvious then. Also --- it is NOT uncommon for foals to be born with ulcers. Worth looking into.

[Spectrum]

My mare had almost the exact same history when she was younger. Even the walking like molasses part is similar.

She is a really dominant mare (she and her mother couldn't be turned out together as adults, actually- they'd pound the crud out of each other and refuse to give in) and she was trained by an amateur rider who just plain didn't know what she was doing. The mare started out fine, would longe fine and was mostly fine on the ground. But eventually she started bucking and rearing as a four-year-old if you tried to make her go forward. The problem was the result of a dominant personality, over-bitting and nagging with the leg that gradually desensitized her. In the ring she didn't want to go. The more leg you used, the slower she would go (until she was walking like she was swimming through molasses).

The problem was, many amateur riders will also grip with the legs and/or hands while spanking with the whip, which actually inhibits the horse from responding and makes them more mad. And that's what my mare's original owner did with her.

Here is what ended up working for her:

1. Take her out of the ring. Lots of hacks and trail rides, using the "go button" when the horse is more inclined to want to go, lots of praise when she goes as requested. This gives the horse a happy riding experience to get fit and get the buttons well-established.

2. TAKE THE LEG OFF when you aren't giving a specific cue. It has to be black and white. If nagged with the leg, this mare will ignore you more and more.

3. Demand a response when you do put the leg on. Ask *once* nicely and if she doesn't leap off the leg, go to town like you're a cowboy being chased by Indians. As in, kick and whack like you're running for your life until you get actual canter steps, then praise and go back to walk. Wash, rinse, repeat. After a couple times the horse will get the message and will go promptly off the leg. And you can't be half-hearted about this- you have to put it into your mind that you are going to make the horse TAKE OFF and be prepared to go with it when/if it happens (it usually won't, at first, LOL).

Whatever you do, you *cannot* nag this horse. You have to be urgent about what you're asking and demanding about what you expect to get, or the horse will tune you out. If you don't get a response right away, go nuts about getting not just "any" response, but a HUGE response. If you don't, you are teaching her that she doesn't have to go the first time- she only has to go when she annoys you enough that you finally lose your cool.

It won't be an overnight process to fix this. And to some degree this will pop up for you for a very long time with this horse, but it doesn't need to be a problem for you.

Here is where my mare is, after having had about 4 years of being trained to suck back and ignore the rider, and another 5 years of more correct training:

1. She's awesome outside. Period, end of story. Couldn't be better in an outdoor ring.
2. In an indoor- the first time I ask her to move off *every* ride I have to get after her somewhat. She's just has to try once every ride- although it isn't a big deal. She goes forward, but doesn't leap off the leg right out of the gate. Such is life. I get after her once and we're good.
3. The mare has an *incredible* work ethic as long as she knows you mean business. She likes her job and tries hard- she just likes to eat and be lazy more, so needs that one wake-up call each ride. She is pushy enough that she just *has* to try once to be lazy to see fi she can get away with it.
4. The less leg I use with this mare, the more she goes. If she starts sucking back, I know I'm nagging. I fix it. We're currently working on getting transitions from collection to/from extension by simply weighting my stirrup or slightly shifting my leg (not even touching her with it). She's that sensitive and forward (in an awesome way) once she's "woken up."
5. Lateral work is awesome, we're schooling some third and fourth level movements on a regular basis.
6. My mare has never reared with me, not once. She did rear during her younger "phase" but hasn't since growing up. She does occasionally buck if the work gets really hard and we're in the indoor- she'll do the random "spook buck" to try to evade on a really bad day, but then goes back to work. Other than that, she's not a bucker anymore. *shrug* The good horses are always going to have some zip in them somewhere.

This issue was a combined problem with my mare- caused by the rider, but perpetuated by her dominant personality. It always need tuning up and must be watched like a hawk to prevent recurrance because now she'd rather be lazy if given the red carpet to do so.

If I put green riders on my mare to let them "feel stuff out," she will suck back and be lazy in a heartbeat if they nag. If they don't nag she's awesome because whatever they try on her is a field day compared to her normal level of collection and work. But all in all, I find her quite responsive and I am determined to get a filly out of this mare eventually- she's a super worker, lovely, and quite talented.

If you have a nice horse, you just need to develop the resolve to do what needs to be done without taking it personally. You have to be clinical and have a high expectation at all times, or a dominant horse will naturally take advantage.

Spectrum.