diagonals

[Rabbit351w]

for tests that allow the trot to be performed posting, can a rider be penalized for posting on the wrong diagonal? a friend and I were discussing... any rules in the rulebook?

[J-Lu]

nope! Many judges would prefer you change your diagonal at either the beginning or end of the diagonal so as not to disrupt the flow of the trot at X.

[Carol O]

No rule as such, but still don't be caught posting on the wrong one. I have changed at X and not found it upset the trot. It would probably be better to wait until the end of the diagonal. Just don't ever be caught on the wrong one.

[Kementari]

So long as your horse is balanced, you should not be penalized for posting on the wrong diagonal.

I've never done it in a test (because, really, it's usually harder to have a horse balanced on a circle if you aren't on the correct diagonal, and I don't need to make things harder for myself! ;)), but I've done it in rail classes (not equitation, of course) on a horse who went smoother on one diagonal than the other - and won. While I can't speak for every judge, of course, it's not nearly the taboo people would believe - again, so long as it doesn't negatively effect the horse's performance.

[PiaffePlease]

Ive had a judge write in the comments on my test "wrong diagonal". While Im not sure if she marked off for it on that movement, she did mention it. So, I always try and stay on the correct one.

Ive also had a judge comment "change diagonal at M, not X"

[ideayoda]

There is no 'wrong' diagonal (since different countries/schools have different ideas about it), so you can post on any diagonal you want. Best idea is to change (if you want) at the end of the diagonal (imho).

[Carol O]

Go "wrong" only if you dare. Many will comment on it; they have the eyes of eagles.

[Mary in Area 1]

My daughter has been competing in dressage for 12 years. She is always on the wrong diagonal--she just posts with the one that feels the best. She has her USDF Silver Medal. No one has ever mentioned it, and our trainer, an FEI judge, says no one ever should.

[canticle]

There is no "right" or "wrong" diagonal in dressage. If you consistently post on one diagonal without switching, the judge may comment on that because you are contributing to potential unevenness. But a judge should never say you are on the wrong diagonal.

[amastrike]

nope! Many judges would prefer you change your diagonal at either the beginning or end of the diagonal so as not to disrupt the flow of the trot at X.

I prefer changing at X. I find it easier to half-halt and change if I sit for a beat, as well.

[rabicon]

The only thing that I've learned is that its not wrong, but it can throw your horse off balance if it is a green horse learning to balance and bend. Also on my circles I just feel weird on the wrong diagnol :lol: Not so much on the rail but when I have to bend to centerline or circle I feel like it throws myself and my horse off.

[slc2]

if the horse is even on both hind legs and is supple he feels equally well on either diagonal on a circle, it is an exercise some trainers have one do alot to change diagonals over and over on a circle.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

I wonder if PiaffePlease has ridden for the same judge I have scribed for? ;) While i agree it's not in the rules, I know there is at least one judge around here who gets perturbed about the issue...

[slc2]

They comment on it, they cannot take off points no matter how they feel about it.

they often comment too if the choice of diagonal or where the rider changes diagonals seems to be disturbing the horse

[goeslikestink]

for tests that allow the trot to be performed posting, can a rider be penalized for posting on the wrong diagonal? a friend and I were discussing... any rules in the rulebook?

yes -- becuase you have not noticed or felt the horse being on the worng diagonal

which makes for an untidy test- and not in control of horse

by that the horse doersnt flow from one movement to another and is off balanced

[goeslikestink]

you might have scored better if you had notice and corrected it, ie sit for 2 beats and change the diagnol for the correct one

[NovDressageRdr]

Im not sure about in tests but my coach will get on me about diagonals.

[goeslikestink]

They comment on it, they cannot take off points no matter how they feel about it.

they often comment too if the choice of diagonal or where the rider changes diagonals seems to be disturbing the horse

your wrong slc2 very wrong---- its a bad habit , if one does not know there diagnols
and it should be taught at basic training levels

[ideayoda]

Posting on different diagonals affect the diagonal pairs in a very calculated manner. No, the rider canNOT be dinged here because it is NOT in the (dressage) rules...yes for hunters.

[Ajierene]

Coming from a hunter background, I can't stand seeing someone on the wrong diagonal. (In the US, you should be on the outside diagonal, is it different in other countries?). I also spent the first half of my riding career being drilled to ALWAYS be on the correct diagonal. We would have lessons where we were not allowed to look down and had to ask for the trot and pick up the correct diagonal and know which diagonal we were on.

I have a problem with one of the first level tests where you are asked to extend the trot across the diagonal, specifically using a rising (posting) trot....I ALWAYS want to switch at X even though we are only posting in a straight line across the diagonal. It takes a lot of work for me not to and I don't because I figure it might mess up her extension and in that instance look sloppy.

As far as being penalized, some people are sticklers for details more than others. Being on the correct diagonal might be one of their peeves. If they are not officially allowed to penalize for it, they may end up taking 2 points off instead of one for a movement that is not as crisp AND the diagonal is wrong.

[Kementari]

But if I need to influence more strongly the hind leg of the "wrong" diagonal pair - perhaps because my horse is weaker or stiffer on that side or simply goes better that way - then it is RIGHT for me, from a standpoint of good horsemanship and bringing the best out in my horse at a competition, to post on that "wrong" diagonal.

The idea that there is absolutely one, and only one, correct diagonal depending solely on the direction one is going belongs only in equitation classes and beginner lessons.

[goeslikestink]

But if I need to influence more strongly the hind leg of the "wrong" diagonal pair - perhaps because my horse is weaker or stiffer on that side or simply goes better that way - then it is RIGHT for me, from a standpoint of good horsemanship and bringing the best out in my horse at a competition, to post on that "wrong" diagonal.

The idea that there is absolutely one, and only one, correct diagonal depending solely on the direction one is going belongs only in equitation classes and beginner lessons.

no becuase the horse is unbalanced and if as you influence then its morelikely a rider fault

as in -- leaning-- or being to strong on one side so give on the side you strongest on and stop leaning on your horse

[Kementari]

no becuase the horse is unbalanced and if as you influence then its morelikely a rider fault

as in -- leaning-- or being to strong on one side so give on the side you strongest on and stop leaning on your horse

Horses are "sided" just like humans, and their "sidedness" is not necessarily the same as the human riding them (I am right-side dominant - one of my horses is also right-side dominant and the other is left-side dominant). In some cases one tool for asking a horse to work harder on and thereby develop better their weaker hind leg can be to post on the "wrong" diagonal. I certainly don't do it terribly often (one horse in, say, 17 years), but disregarding it as a tool because it's contrary to what we teach in up-down lessons is short-sighted.

[canticle]

Prominent dressage trainers recommend posting on the inside diagonal to activate the inside hind leg. You cannot get marked down for this because there is NO CONCEPT of "correct" diagonals in dressage. You need to do what is best for the horse. That is what being a rider is all about.

I have never seen a judge mark down, or even comment, about diagonals. A judge who marks down for it is not only ignorant of the judging rules, but also of basic training principles.

Finally, I do think it is important to ride BOTH diagonals consistently so that the horse develops on both sides, but that doesn't mean one diagonal is right and the other is wrong. The rules of hunterland are oftentimes specific to that discipline and not universal to all of riding.

[Kathy Johnson]

There is so little to judge at intro and training levels that I know the judge's notice. Although they can not score a rider down, I have seen many a comment. And the rider score might be subconsciously lowered if the rider at those levels is disrupting the balance of the horse or is showing they have no clue where the legs of the horse are in trot. It is much easier to ride a horse inside leg to outside rein when on the correct diagonal.

As for the rider getting her silver medal and never knowing her diagonals, it wouldn't matter after training level, because everything after that is done sitting, except the trot lengthening in the earlier first level tests.

In the trot lengthenings at first level, don't change the diagonal at all, as it acts as a half halt and disrupts the lengthening.

[canticle]

And the rider score might be subconsciously lowered if the rider at those levels is disrupting the balance of the horse or is showing they have no clue where the legs of the horse are in trot. It is much easier to ride a horse inside leg to outside rein when on the correct diagonal.
By "correct" do you mean inside or outside diagonal? ;) Riding on the inside diagonal is often beneficial to the horse's balance because it activates the inside hind. Usually it is the beginners who are on the outside diagonal (since that is what they were taught when first starting out), and the more experienced riders who are posting on the inside because they realize it can help the horse. I would hope a dressage judge would not be biased by H/J traditions.

[goeslikestink]

Horses are "sided" just like humans, and their "sidedness" is not necessarily the same as the human riding them (I am right-side dominant - one of my horses is also right-side dominant and the other is left-side dominant). In some cases one tool for asking a horse to work harder on and thereby develop better their weaker hind leg can be to post on the "wrong" diagonal. I certainly don't do it terribly often (one horse in, say, 17 years), but disregarding it as a tool because it's contrary to what we teach in up-down lessons is short-sighted.


in answer- then thats how you trianed your horse from the very begining as uneven

[Kementari]

in answer- then thats how you trianed your horse from the very begining as uneven

So am I right-handed because my parents trained me that way from the very beginning?

[Kathy Johnson]

I can make an uneven horse look really lame by posting on the wrong (inside) diagonal. I have seen many riders at Intro and training level, pulling on the outside rein, posting on the wrong (inside) diagonal. Their horses look uneven and can not bend well because the rider is using the inside leg out of sync. The horses tend to counterbend and just fall on the inside shoulder. This just adds to the overall picture of a rider who doesn't know where the horse's legs are.

As I said before, it is far easier to ride inside leg to outside rein if you are on the correct (outside) posting diagonal. You have to think in terms of keeping the horse straight in the trot.

This is a far different picture than an upper level rider deliberately posting on the inside diagonal to strengthen or weight the inside hind (which I have never seen done in the show ring, but it would not create a negative impression as would the first scenario). It is the rider's awareness that is either there or it's not, and a judge can tell the difference immediately.

[canticle]

There is no such as thing correct or incorrect diagonal in dressage! If the horse is counterbent and unbalanced it is the result of bad riding. The use of posting is just an aid, and both diagonals may have a purpose depending on what you are trying to accomplish.

Yes, beginners are taught to post on the outside diagonal (often by H/J trainers). But that is purely a H/J tradition. If you really want to ride inside leg to outside rein, then I would recommend sitting the trot. Posting in general makes riding dressage harder.

[slc2]

Whatever diagonal one posts on one is not supposed to change diagonals at X when crossing the diagonal. It throws off the horse's fluidity of movement and the judges WILL quite often comment on that. One thing one does not want to do in a test is throw off the fluidity and rhythm of the gait while doing a lengthening. Often the rider doesn't notice the effect but I can say for sure it is very, very noticable and always has a negative effect to switch at X unless the trot is so slow and so not-forward that it would get a poor score anyway.

The reason the rider is free to choose the diagonal is that in many countries, they do not post on the outside diagonal. In Portugal, Russia, some other countries, instructors, dressage and otherwise, quite often teach the rider to post on the inside diagonal, and can far more convincingly argue for that than always posting on the outside diagonal. And they feel just as strongly about THEIR choice as hunter-influences riders feel about the outside diagonal in the USA. However, most dressage trained riders are very used to this rule and understand why it exists.

The inside diagonal is the choice when one needs to influence the inside leg more without using the leg out of rhythm, I choose the outside diagonal at other times and am usually posting on the outside diagonal, unless I have a very crooked horse I'm trying to keep working on all the time (physical therapy dressage).

Changing diagonals on a circle is a very, very important and very effective exercise for evening up the horse. When he feels just as supple and forward on both diagonals on a circle, you know you have improved him alot.

[goeslikestink]

So am I right-handed because my parents trained me that way from the very beginning?
haha ha ha nope-- its a common problem rider have and they do thend to blame the horse
when in truth its how they ride,, if you for exsample have a horse who is stiff one sided
as they say, then more likely its a rider error, as to strong on the side they strongest on which for most of is the right -- ie right handed - so horse is stiff on the opposite side ie left hence my saying dont ride as you write and learn to give asin the person gives,, this then even up the horse and he can be himself and carry himself better so hes not leaning or being leant on, or beign yeidled on one side- it comes as natural to us like sun concious we do in sub conious and arnt concious that we do, do it until someone points its out or the horse in time get very stiff and wont go fowards or whatever

[enjoytheride]

goeslikestink is WRONG. There is no correct diagonal in dressage and it can't be penalized in a test.

I took lessons with an instructor who had all her students post on the "wrong" diagonal because she thought it was easier to influence the horse during dressage moments. My current trainer will have people change their diagonal during movements like leg yielding to influence the horse.

Yes, changing your posting diagonal can influence the horse. NO it is not allowed to be penalized in dressage.

If a judge knocks off an extra point just because the diagonal is wrong then they are a bad judge and are not follwing the rules. Nothing else to it. They may comment if they wish but any judge that kocks you down a point in a DRESSAGE test for the wrong diagonal does not need to be a judge and is not aware of what they need to be judging.

[eventer_mi]

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with canticle - posting on the "wrong" diagonal will help you influence your horse's inside hind better. When I'm having difficulty bending a horse, especially the greenies, I will post on the "wrong" diagonal frequently to help engage that inside hind, and then when I get better bend and carriage, I will switch to the "correct" diagonal to see if horsey can maintain the bend. I have had rides where I spent almost the entire time on the "wrong" diagonal because the horse needed me to be on that one. Note: I did not say that I was on that same diagonal for the entire ride - on the right rein, I was on the right diagonal; on the left rein, vice versa.

I have been taught to "get the bend, then switch your diagonal" in a test. So, going on the diagonal in a test, I'll keep the outside diagonal, go straight over "x", change bend, and then change diagonal before I reach the corner letter. If horsey is having issues with getting the new bend, I'll often stay on the outside diagonal until the bend is better, and then I'll switch, so sometimes it happesn after the corner letter, too.

In an older edition of the book, "On the Levels", by Max Gawhyler (sp?), he actually recommends posting on the inside diagonal to influence the horse's inside hind better, and says that judges should not judge you on your diagonals, nor comment on them.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda - this is dressage, inherently SUBJECTIVE, and I wouldn't risk riding the entire test on the same diagonal (why would you?) in case the judge decided that you had no clue what your horse's body was doing or where his/her feet are. If you are deliberate about changing your diagonals, and you are deliberate about showing a change of bend/balance, then the judge should recognize that you are doing what is needed for that particular horse at that particular time, and either ignore the diagonal or commend you for RIDING. I have never had a judge mark me down for where and when I choose to change my diagonals. They may have had an issue with it, but it was never noted on my test.

[slc2]

"dressage is subjective"

i don't feel it is. not in this matter, in any case. judges don't give you 'brownie points' for posting on one diagonal or the other. if they did, a great many foreign riders in the USA would be complaining bitterly. it is not done. it's not a 'risk' to post on the inside diagonal.

i feel that many like to suggest that judges are very biased to things like this, to try and explain why horses and riders are scored in ways they can't understand. rather than understanding the judging, many like to accuse the judges of being higly 'subjective' ie, overly influenced by many things that they are not allowed to factor in at all - breed, tack, clothing, and the like. and things like this.

but why do it unless one came from a school where it's taught that way and that's a habit? if the horse is going along properly, working the inside hind leg as needed, it's not necessary. if it is done there should be a reason.

there are plenty of people that are clever enough to hide a lameness in a horse by picking which diagonal to use in specific directions. THAT is the reason i'd not use it unless necessary. it was a very old trick of horse dealers to put someone on a lame horse that knew how to support with the reins, pick the diagonal that concealed the lameness, and otherwise cover up a problem.

"goeslikestink is wrong"

in the sense that a judge cannot mark off for a rider posting on a different diagonal yes.

some people are confused about it, because a judge comments, 'changing diagonals at x disturbs the fluidity of the diagonal', or the like. they CAN'T say, 'posting on inside diagonal, error of test, 2 points off', or 'working trot posting, 3, wrong diagonal'.

we have to remember that a lot of very good riders come to dressage from a more general type of riding and really, really are not comfortable with the 'diagonal rule' in dressage. they've been taught for years there's a 'right' diagonal and heard some really great arguments in favor. you can't expect them to just agree.

the fact is, though, that beginners in ALL type of riding are taught to post on a specific diagonal most of the time. the reason is so they develop an awareness of what they're doing, and a control over their seat and position.

too, much of the time, the outside diagonal is just fine for dressage. so is the inside. much of the time, the choice doesn't make that much difference. horses get used to one or the other.

Clearly, horses in Portugal, Russia and other countries or schools where they post on the inside diagonal are not uneven, lame, destroyed, off balance, disunited, impure, incorrect, or anything else. Any more than ours are because we post on the outside diagonal.

the rider, however, shouldn't 'get a silver medal without knowing diagonals because it doesn't count'...that doesn't make sense to me.

choosing which diagonal to post on, being able to control one's seat and position, time and harmonize one's aids, being able to school one's horse in a manner commensurate with riding at the 'silver medal' level, being able to feel which hind leg needs to work harder, all would pretty be things one would automatically be doing if one was preparing for a silver medal.

[goeslikestink]

goeslikestink is WRONG. There is no correct diagonal in dressage and it can't be penalized in a test.

I took lessons with an instructor who had all her students post on the "wrong" diagonal because she thought it was easier to influence the horse during dressage moments. My current trainer will have people change their diagonal during movements like leg yielding to influence the horse.

Yes, changing your posting diagonal can influence the horse. NO it is not allowed to be penalized in dressage.

If a judge knocks off an extra point just because the diagonal is wrong then they are a bad judge and are not follwing the rules. Nothing else to it. They may comment if they wish but any judge that kocks you down a point in a DRESSAGE test for the wrong diagonal does not need to be a judge and is not aware of what they need to be judging.

it can if its not fluent without transitions
from one trot to another

[J Lav]

yes -- becuase you have not noticed or felt the horse being on the worng diagonal

which makes for an untidy test- and not in control of horse

by that the horse doersnt flow from one movement to another and is off balanced

Sorry goeslikestink but as a fairly high listed UK judge I can tell you you are wrong.

A judge cannot take marks off for a rider being on the wrong diagonal because there is not a universal agreement on which diagonal is correct!!

[eventer_mi]

"dressage is subjective"


SLC, I totally respect your opinions and love to read what you have to say, but please don't mis-quote me. I said that dressage is inherently subjective, not that it IS subjective. The very fact that you're judging against an ideal makes it inherently subjective, since we in dressage you cannot say that a horse needs to be 2 degrees in front of the vertical to get a "7", for example. A horse that scores a 8 on gaits may be another person's 9, or 7. There is no objectivity to that. At my last show, with a "R" judge, I scored a 5 on my halt/salute, with the comment "not straight/not square". Well, I have it on video, and it's pretty darn straight, and dead square. So why did it score a "5"? Judges also have to back up their scores/decisions with comments - you don't have to do that in stadium, for example - either the pole got knocked down or it didn't. You either made the time or you didn't. No subjectivity there.

It's one of the reasons why Lucinda Green campaigns against kicking the dressage component out of the sport - it's the only subjective phase in eventing. So, yes, I wouldn't post on the "incorrect" diagonal in a test unless I was doing it deliberately as a training aid, in case the judge marked me down for "not knowing where my horse's legs are/were".

[slc2]

but the whole point of this is that the judge couldn't possibly DO that, because there is no right or wrong diagonal. not only that, but there is NO PART of dressage judging called 'knowing where your horses legs are', and that is NOT judged. judges can't just make up stuff that they decide to judge on. that is not something they have the power to do. otherwise they would be judging the rider's race, what type of boots they have on, and where they got their horse from.

you could know exactly where your horses legs were and have DECIDED to post on the other diagonal, anyway.

once i was in the barn and heard mrs igor presnikov tell a competitor, 'i gave your horse first because he is such a good example of a trakehner'.

'damn!', says i, 'breed prejudice! and from such an august judge! what the hell's the world coming to!'

and a second later, mrs igor said, 'and that's why you got first place from me in the in hand class at the breed show', HA HA HA . moral of the story? when the judge seems to be wrong, listen. they may not be.

[Kementari]

haha ha ha nope-- its a common problem rider have and they do thend to blame the horse
when in truth its how they ride,, if you for exsample have a horse who is stiff one sided
as they say, then more likely its a rider error, as to strong on the side they strongest on which for most of is the right -- ie right handed - so horse is stiff on the opposite side ie left hence my saying dont ride as you write and learn to give asin the person gives,, this then even up the horse and he can be himself and carry himself better so hes not leaning or being leant on, or beign yeidled on one side- it comes as natural to us like sun concious we do in sub conious and arnt concious that we do, do it until someone points its out or the horse in time get very stiff and wont go fowards or whatever

I certainly agree that as riders we tend to be too strong on whichever side is our dominant one. I spend a lot of time reminding myself to lighten up my right-side aids, because I know that I tend to be too heavy on that side if I'm not thinking about it. And certainly that effects the horse, and certainly whenever we have a problem we should look to our riding first.

BUT, unevenness is not ALWAYS caused by the rider. Horses are NATURALLY dominant on one side or the other, just like humans. If it was always the human's fault, then why is one of my horses right-dominant and the other left-dominant? And why, in fact, is the horse that is right-dominant the one who's been ridden exclusively by me from the very beginning? If the dominance (and thereby strength) ALWAYS comes from the rider, she should be left-dominant. But, well, no one told HER that. ;)

[Kathy Johnson]

but there is NO PART of dressage judging called 'knowing where your horses legs are', and that is NOT judged. Of course there is. Part of it is in the rider's score on position and effectiveness of the aids, but it's in every single movement of every test. If the rider does not know where the horse's legs are, she can not possibly be effective with the aids. If you miss leads, if your horse travels haunches in, if your lead changes are not clean, if your shoulder in is a neck in, if your leg yield is haunches trailing, if your horse's hocks are trailing, if your transitions are abrupt, and so on, these are all part of knowing where your horse's legs are, and definitely you will be judged. No one can even begin to ride dressage without having some clue about where the horse's legs are.

[slc2]

Yes, but one is STILL not specifically required, anywhere in the judging to know which diagonal one is on, to pick a specific one, or to connect that up with where the feet are. There is no 'diagonal quiz' at the end of the test that the rider has to pass....but in another post you said a person got a silver medal without knowing his diagonals. there, it sounded like you felt this wasn't a necessary part of more advanced riding, here it seems you have the opposite opinion, can you clarify?

In a general way, yes, it behooves the rider to have some concept of whether the horse's rear end or shoulders are in or out (though that has nothing to do specifically with which foot is grounded or not per se), but he is STILL not specifically required to demonstrate any knowledge of the diagonals.

[Kathy Johnson]

but in another post you said a person got a silver medal without knowing his diagonals. there, it sounded like you felt this wasn't a necessary part of more advanced riding, here it seems you have the opposite opinion, can you clarify?

Yes, Mary in Area 1 said it of her daughter. I simply said I could see how that could happen, since there is no posting after training level except in the first level lengthenings, where one should never change diagonals. I suspect she did most of her work sitting. I do not condone it then or now. You can't easily or consciously influence the hind legs in posting trot if you don't know which diagonal you're on.

it behooves the rider to have some concept of whether the horse's rear end or shoulders are in or out (though that has nothing to do specifically with which foot is grounded or not per se)

Every horse I know has his rear end and shoulders firmly grounded in his feet. If the horse is crooked, it has everything to do with: 1. where the feet are tracking and 2. how much the horse is weighting each foot. The rump and shoulders rarely touch the ground.