wak me thru the shoulder in to renver part of 2nd level test 4

[dressagemom]

We are working on figuring out the movements in the last two second level tests. We have gotten "stuck" or better a bit confused and trying to over ride the part of 2-4 where you have to go from the shoulder-in the the renver. I am hoping that the people who are knowledgable and have been successful with these two movements could "talk" me through and explain the aids and changing of aids that happens. Feel free to break it down into quite small bits. Thanks for the help.

Sorry - title should have said walk me through the movements

[slc2]

do you know what the renvers is?

can you do a shoulder in and a renvers now?

ride shoulder in, which has aids like riding a circle - outside rein controlling the shoulder and bringing it in off the track, inside rein making some bend. inside leg at the girth, outside leg as a 'guard' to keep the haunches on the line ( not flying out to the outside).

in the renvers, the shioulder in STAYS IN - nothing changes except the direction of the bend.

stay in the shoulder in position basically, just change the bend.

what WAS the outside rein is how creating the bend ('outside' is the outside of the bend, 'inside' is the inside of the bend - inside and outside are related to the bend, not a position in the arena (such as, going right, right rein is not automatically the 'inside rein', it depends on the direction of bend))..

do not change anything much, just the bend. do not come in off the track, do not make the haunches go more in, or more out.

shoulder in. change the bend, not the placing of the shoulders...renvers.

[dressagemom]

Thank you SLC2 - it is making more sense now. Your step by step description was very helpful. My husband did wonder/question what I was doing as I was "riding" your directions as I sat at the computer desk. The way you explained it definitely makes things much more clear. Now I just need to go and see if my aids can "explain" it to the horse.

[J-Lu]

In addition to Slc's post, I'd emphasize that the bend comes from your seatbones, not reins. This is a bit different from riding a circle.

If you are doing shoulder-in right, you are stepping slightly into your right stirrup at the girth and your right seatbone is "directing" the horse to stay on a straight line rather than go on a circle. To practice this concept, try shoulder-in on the quarter or centerline (which is difficult for a second level pair). Your hips are facing down the long side while your shoulders are facing the diagonal, matching your horse's shoulders, which should be to the inside. Your inside seatbone and supporting leg aids are what tells the horse "keep going down the long side" rather than "turn into the circle". The outside rein keeps the horse from bending the neck rather than the body and keeps the half-halts going, while your outside leg keeps the horse's hind legs going straight on the track. *You are weighting the inside hind leg here*

To ride renvers from shoulder-in right, yoru weight will shift from the inside, right seatbone to being even for a couple of strides to being weighted on the left seatbone. This should signal your horse to bend left. As you switch seatbones and weight, your hips go from pointing relatively straight down the longside for shoulder-in to pointing across the diagonal, as your shoulders go from aiming across the diagonal for shoulder-in to going straight down the long side. Remember: your shoulders point along the track of your horse's shoulders and your hips point along the track of your horse's hind legs. If you are riding "haunches out", your hips end up pointing across the diagonal (and the hind legs cross) while your shoulders point down the long-side (front legs do not cross). The key is in your seatbones, because your horse should bend soley from your seatbones with only rein support. *you are weighting the outside hind leg here - meaning that the outside hind leg is doing alot of work*. Note that going from shoulder-in to renvers weights the *same leg*, so this is a difficult exercise for a horse still learning it. It's like you lifting weights with the same arm. Be careful about drilling this.

You have a couple of options to transition to renvers. Originally, the movement at second level was designed so that you STRAIGHTENED your horse first before going to renvers, meaning the shoulders came back to the track and then renvers was performed. Hence the 2003 test description read "develop renvers". But most riders didn't ride it this way. they rode it how Slc described. So the movement changes a bit with the 2007 re-write to accomodate this.

In my experience, the judges want to see a solid shoulder-in, and then a smooth transition to renvers. You can keep the shoulders and haunches where they are and just change the bend. Or, you can straighten your horse and then ask for renvers. Some judges prefer that the second level horse straighten first, others aren't as concerned.

Good luck!

[Equa]

We don't have it in any of our tests, but I was asked to do this in a clinic recently. Your must be centered on the horse for it to work! It is an excellent exercise which I ride (as slc describes) now every day on all my horses.

[slc2]

Sure bend should come from seat bones to one degree or another, but til horse knows that, the reins help to expllain it to him, and even in the trained horse, if he doesn't respond to the more subtle aid, one can always go back to the 'baby aid'. Training a dressage horse is a continual process of going from more obvious, 'baby' aids to something more subtle.

[J-Lu]

Sure bend should come from seat bones to one degree or another, but til horse knows that, the reins help to expllain it to him, and even in the trained horse, if he doesn't respond to the more subtle aid, one can always go back to the 'baby aid'. Training a dressage horse is a continual process of going from more obvious, 'baby' aids to something more subtle.

I hear ya but maybe for a green training level horse. If someone is at the point where they are doing second level-test 4 movements, then the horse and rider should be primarily working off the seatbones, weight/body and leg aids to change the bend for lateral work. If the rider can't do a turn on the haunches without getting bend from the inside rein, or can't to a shoulder-in without directing the bend with the inside rein, then I question his or her ability to work on this movement. And, I question the horse's ability to do it while remaining "through". If that's the case, why do it? It's not a gymnastic exercise anymore. If the horse/rider needs the reins to explain bend, he's not quite ready for second level test three or four, much less this movement.

If a trained horse doesn't respond to subtle aids, then the same aids are repeated with volume - one doesn't default to rein aids to make up for the horse not listening to the seat unless something drastic is happening. That teaches the horse the wrong message. The OP is asking for the correct aids, not "my horse isn't listening" aids. She might as well forge ahead as correctly as possible, no? Especially if she has any plans to do third level.

Sure, dressage is a continual process. But second level test 4 is beyond "baby aids". The rider should be using the seat and legs more than the reins to establish bend.

in my opinon.

[Equa]

I think that even in an advanced horse, there is nothing wrong for the rein to indicate flexion and the seat and legs to sustain the bend. The legs and the seat also contain the direction and help regulate the tempo and rhythm. If you try to ride s/i and revers/ravers with the seat alone - even on a "trained" horse - I suspect you will be weaving all over the arena. Sometimes (often?) you DO need to set up exercises with a directional half halt or two that indicate what is coming up.

[slc2]

Yes J-Lu some say that's the ideal, but I go more with Equa, with the caveat that I don't feel the aids change so much as just become more and more subtle.

[J-Lu]

I think that even in an advanced horse, there is nothing wrong for the rein to indicate flexion and the seat and legs to sustain the bend. The legs and the seat also contain the direction and help regulate the tempo and rhythm. If you try to ride s/i and revers/ravers with the seat alone - even on a "trained" horse - I suspect you will be weaving all over the arena. Sometimes (often?) you DO need to set up exercises with a directional half halt or two that indicate what is coming up.

Well yes, I agree Equa. I did not mention never using the reins as they are "aids" and have functions and help establish flexion, nor did I mention riding bent lateral work using the seat alone. But I would not agree with a description of riding shoulder-in to renvers (or a description of how to ride either, or a description of how to establish bend on smaller circles or in second level or above lateral work) *without* emphasizing the role of the seat. And legs and body position/weight. Theoretically (and in practice-this is how I was trained by several to ride it), you should be able to establish the bend on centerline (much less the long side) with the seat/body/legs and control the shoulder with the outside rein...althewhile looping the inside rein to prove that the horse is "on your seat". You should work towards using your seat to change bend, too. By the time you get to fourth, you have to show this on centerline. Believe it or not, you *can* do it with your seat/weight as the primary aid and your reins as supporting aids. And you can do it on a straight line! Or on curved lines. I do this all the time in my regular training. I worked with an international GP rider who had me do this with my hands pressing together so I had to rely on my seat. Try it-it is a great exercise. You might have to "aid" your horse with the inside rein if he isn't getting it, but you should not, in my opinion, rely on your inside rein *before* your seat. And at the least, this is what you should be aiming for as you are training your second level-test 4 horse. But that's me.:) Your mileage might vary...

[goeslikestink]

um -- before you can schoulder in-- you should be able to leg yeild

and before you do it in trot would surgest you do it in walk when teaching a horse be it new or otherwise alway work the pace in walk, its easier for you and the horse to understand

but like i said you need to be able to leg yield 1st


so can you

[goeslikestink]

do you know what the renvers is?

can you do a shoulder in and a renvers now?

ride shoulder in, which has aids like riding a circle - outside rein controlling the shoulder and bringing it in off the track, inside rein making some bend. inside leg at the girth, outside leg as a 'guard' to keep the haunches on the line ( not flying out to the outside).

in the renvers, the shioulder in STAYS IN - nothing changes except the direction of the bend.

stay in the shoulder in position basically, just change the bend.

what WAS the outside rein is how creating the bend ('outside' is the outside of the bend, 'inside' is the inside of the bend - inside and outside are related to the bend, not a position in the arena (such as, going right, right rein is not automatically the 'inside rein', it depends on the direction of bend))..

do not change anything much, just the bend. do not come in off the track, do not make the haunches go more in, or more out.

shoulder in. change the bend, not the placing of the shoulders...renvers.


can you perform this movement slc2-- on a horse that doesnt know how to leg yeild yet maybe

[SillyHorse]

They're schooling 2nd level tests 3 and 4. My guess is they know how to leg yield, as that's required in 1st level.

[Equibrit]

Go and buy; "The complete Guide to Dressage" by Jennie Loriston Clarke. It has pictures and diagrams. They are also correct !

[Dressage Art]

What differentiate a shoulder-in from leg yield is the bend. The easiest way to see if there is a correct bend thru the horse's body is to check the line of travel of the hind legs – they need to travel straight along the long side. It’s only the front legs that cross over, b/c the shoulder is displaced with the correct bend, but the hind end stays, tracks up straight.

What differentiate a renvers from leg yield is the bend as well. The easiest way to see if there is a correct bend thru the body is to check the line travel of the front legs – they need to travel straight along the long side. It’s only the hind legs that cross over, b/c the hind end is displaced with the correct bend, but the front end stays, tracks up straight.

If both pairs of legs are crossing over during shoulder in or during renvers – that is a crooked leg yield that can score a 4 and below.

Things that stay the same during the shoulder-in to renvers:

*the angle of travel compare to the long side of the wall. Keep the angle the same thru ought the whole long side.
* Tempo – how fast or slow your horse is trotting – keep it the same. Usually horses slow down further they go down the long side. If your horse slows down - you can try to think "medium trot" to help yourself and your horse to maintain the same tempo and impulsion in the second half.
*rhythm – equal clarity of each footfall. Rhythm can become broken if horse becomes tense in the back, resistant in the neck and bridle.

Both movements are tests of control. One is a test of displacing a shoulder – a test of control of the shoulder. Another one is a test of displacing a hind end – a test of control of the hind end.

Horse’s front legs cross in shoulder-in, so to go to renvers, point horse’s shoulders straight so front legs would trot straight and stop crossing. Displace horse’s hind end, so hind legs would start crossing. So front legs go from crossing to tracking straight. Hind legs go from tracking straight to crossing. That can be only done with a correct bend thru the horse’s body.

[slc2]

"slc2 can you do this movement before doing leg yield"

goeslikestink, some people NEVER teach a horse to leg yield and they can still do all the lateral work such as shoulder in, haunches in, renvers, half pass.

And the idea that it's a prerequisite, I don't agree with that at all. Clearly it isn't because some people never use it at all in dressage. Even the SRS isn't such a huge user of leg yield. It's QUALITIES that have to be present as prerequisites to lateral work, how one gets them is their business.

Should most riders skip leg yields? No, I don't think so. For most riders it will mean they are missing some seriously needed qualities for the next work.

The leg yield is very popular in the United States and other places as well and because of how we school, it is assumed to be a pre-requisite but again, this is because of the way we school here. Other suppling work can be used instead.

And even some American trainers hardly use the leg yield at all, they may use it as a way to give the horse a very basic idea and move on, and never feel any need to ride the horse in the first level tests that require it. How much or if a trainer uses leg yield at all depends on who you work with. I find that people who have worked almost exclusively at the lower levels tend to rely on leg yield more, where as people who have worked at different levels, have found out how to use flying lead changes, half passes and other work to provide suppleness and correct reaction to leg....though that doesn't always mean it should be avoided, or that some trainers aren't just complete geniuses as usling leg yield very creatively, or that it isn't a very good tool for a lower level rider and horse.

In fact, the leg yield is in some ways much more for the rider than the horse. It teaches him to move the horse away from his leg and supple him.

If other exercises are used correctly, if the rider can supple his horse without leg yield, if he is absolutely perfect in how he rides his circles, sure.

Do I school without using leg yield? No, I use it, but like Freud, there is a limit, so not endlessely repeating it or drilling it, though some leg yield like steps might be very useful at later times in schooling. Unless the horse has a therapeutic need, such as previous schooling that caused the horse to be very crooked (like say, being jammed together and doing tricks without being correctly and evenly developed), it would have a pretty specific and limited use.

In fact some people can and often does use half pass as a kind of 'double suppling' exercise to supple the neck and shoulders and move the haunches at the same time.