so, really. Be honest and vote in this poll

[pintopiaffe]

I'm told my perception of the demographics on this board are wrong. This is anonymous and I'd be REALLY interested in the results. I actually HOPE I'm wrong...

What is your average annual income?

[Dressage Art]

If a family of 3 in California is making less than $75K, they are entitled to the substituted housing for poor people, 20% off their electricity bills and other perks. In Arizona, $75K for family of 3 is a luxury and they can live in 3,000.00+ sq. f. house.

It's not the annual income that matters, its how much money you have left after paying your necessities.

[STF]

Same here, in TX the cost of living is much different and lower.
In Colorado what would cost 300K, is about 100K here.
Cant compare total income as some may net more than others, no matter what the gross is.

[pintopiaffe]

I agree completely with what you're saying about cost of living...

And the thing is that a couple making $35k each and sharing household expenses is also very different from one person making $35k but being the sole income.

I'm just interested. Thank you so far for those who have answered--I know it won't be scientific.

I think there is a certain low end demographic that really RELIES on the internet for 'studying' if you will... for current knowledge and learning etc, in lieu of lessons & training...

[cloudyandcallie]

but then don't you have to go into college, grad school, how many of us took ballet and piano and how many took english riding lessons as kids?
poor is a relative thing. and elitism is bad.
I assumed that the coth forum has people who have more $ than the folks on the horsetopia and other forums.
don't know for a fact.
let me check my lotto ticket from friday night.

[pintopiaffe]

NO, no, no... I don't mean low end demographics in that regard--I just mean low income. And YES that includes starving students, artists, some teachers... hell, many full time horse professionals are barely above the poverty line!

I just mean folks who can't afford to pop $100 or more on a lesson come to rely boards like this --I do!

[Ajierene]

NO, no, no... I don't mean low end demographics in that regard--I just mean low income. And YES that includes starving students, artists, some teachers... hell, many full time horse professionals are barely above the poverty line!

I just mean folks who can't afford to pop $100 or more on a lesson come to rely boards like this --I do!

It's not just money, but expenses. Say someone that makes $75K, married-spouse makes $75K also, four kids, two in college, mortgage, car payments, truck payments, board is $700 a month (maybe because they live in the city and it is the average around them).

Compare to someone in a similar area making $35K, no kids, no spouse, older model truck with none or small car payments, boards with a neighbor or for $200 a month.

Even though the second person is making half (or a quarter if you count the spouse), they may have more disposable income to pay $100 a lesson.

So while it is interesting to see who comes to these boards, it is hard to tell by income what that means as far as ability to afford trainers.

[FriesianX]

Besides WHERE you live, you also need to consider what expenses you pay for with your annual income. For example, if you are a college student whose parents pay for housing, etc, $20k in annual income is a nice chunk of disposable income. On the other hand, if you are a single Mom living in Southern California, $20k means you are living on the streets or in your car! And I suspect we have a few college (and even high school) students voting in this poll.

AND (the accountant in me is speaking now), are you talking GROSS income, or taxable income? A professional trainer is writing off al their training costs and horse costs, so their taxable income may appear low, but everything is paid before taxes (not that I'm saying trainers are generally rolling in dough, just pointing out this poll isn't really telling you much).

[pintopiaffe]

Everyone has excellent points. And yes, all of it matters.

I just recall DT publishing the demographics of their readers a few years ago, and I was insulted enough I never renewed. I suspect CotH is similar--though the BOARDS may not reflect the subscribers.

I just find it... interesting.. that if you browse a few 'saddle suggestion' threads you get a *feeling* that the majority of posters in this forum consider it 'normal' to pay more than $2500 for a saddle. Perhaps they just really love their saddles more and want to share their positive experience... and I'm not knocking the 'you get what you pay for' theory... *but* it gives the IMPRESSION.... ya know?

[Ambrey]

My mom and my husband earn about the same amount, but our expenses are much different. Plus, we have to pay for "toys" for two people (my husband has a boat). So I sucked her into the horse thing and make her subsidize my habit ;)

But honestly, I can't imagine how a single person toward the lower end of your range could ever afford to own a horse in this area. Just boarding and feeding is SO expensive. Even someone at the upper end would have to be doing without other luxuries to afford to keep a horse.

[holsteinersrock]

INCOME??? In horse business????

Anna

[coloredhorse]

I just find it... interesting.. that if you browse a few 'saddle suggestion' threads you get a *feeling* that the majority of posters in this forum consider it 'normal' to pay more than $2500 for a saddle. Perhaps they just really love their saddles more and want to share their positive experience... and I'm not knocking the 'you get what you pay for' theory... *but* it gives the IMPRESSION.... ya know?

Yah, pp, I know what you mean, and since it's been brought up, I'm a bit curious, too (caveats already well-described notwithstanding ... it's interesting as a purely academic exercise). I'm also mildly surprised at the results of the poll so far, with the middle ranges being the least represented.

I will comment that saddle ownership is not always a clear guage of financial wherewithal. I'm "poor" compared to most of my friends, and certainly among my local dressage community. Mr. CH and I suffered some serious financial hits over the last couple of years. Even previously, I was not able to spend as lavishly as my previous local dressage community (very pricey area). However, I purchased a used Hennig for my hard-to-fit-oh-so-touchy-about-her-back competition horse. I was very lucky in that a friend was in a position to purchase it for me and sell it to me on a payment plan. I've always bought quality for tack and boots ... quality lasts and so costs less per use over the long haul. I've done it by buying used, taking my time, and sniffing out true bargains.

I know that's a big ol' tangent from what you're after here. Just thought I'd toss that caveat into the stew of those already offered, since you specifically mentioned the saddle threads. (Yes, I got a good price on the saddle; it recently appraised for more than I paid for it. And yes, it was worth it because it alleviates my back/hip pain and my silly little mare likes it.)

[slc2]

I feel the poll isn't going to be helpful.

Because it's a fallacy that a high paying job automatically makes it easier to do dressage.

Most of those high paying jobs, they think they own you, 24/7, 365 days a year. I have never had a good job that was any other way, and most of the people I talk to have the exact same problem.

The high paying jobs aren't just time-intensive. They drain you mentally and physically, and you're scared - ALL the time, pretty much, wondering what the he** is going to happen tomorrow and who else is going to kick your *** around the block, and what is being said about your performance behind your back - if you are in any sort of mental condition to ride after all that for 16 hrs, you probably don't have a boarding barn that would allow you to ride at 10 or 11 pm!

Sixteen hours is very often a short day, and I've come in at 7, worked til 4:30 am, come in at 8:30 am, and been asked, 'Why didn't you get in at 7:30? Two hours of sleep is plenty.' I've also been told I couldn't take an hour lunch to get my car fixed, that i needed to get drunk with the boss and 'get to know him better', and a whole lot of other things. These jobs aren't a lot of fun.

When I applied for one job, I told the guy I would need a week or two to move my horse, after accepting their offer.

Do you know what he said?

"Sell the f****** horse. I own you'.

And he pointed to a cot out in the hall and said, 'You won't even need to get an apartment. You'll be here'.

I have struggled for over fifteen years to make a 'great, high paying job' allow me to do dressage. It isn't that easy. As my SO said, 'Great horse, too bad you never get to see it'. SOML.

That is what I meant when I said everyone is on the same planet with you, PintoPiaffe. And it has nothing to do with demographics. You decided to make this be about money. But that wasn't what I meant.

I've known wealthy people who did dressage. Same thing. Only for them it may be family needs, requirements to be a 'good company wife', or any number of other things. And I've seen people spend a sh**load on lessons, horses, training, showing, and STILL not do well. Money doesn't really remove all barriers. Jealous people think it does.

I meant everyone works very hard to make it possible to do dressage, everyone has something they have to struggle with to get to do it. You, and everyone else, whether they have money or not. We're all in the same boat.

[Ajierene]

I don't think PintoPiaffe was curious as to whether or not the higher demographic spent more time here than more time with lessons - as in they could afford the lessons that others couldn't.

Not that the higher demographic is better at dressage, just not that they spend time here.

The saddle question is not really a valid indicator of income, though it seems more of the higher income are here. When I got my tax refund last year, I used the money (about $3,000) to buy two new saddles (jumping and dressage) two new bridles to go with them (because you can't get a black jumping saddle or a chesnut dressage saddle....) new saddle pad and girths. So, I dropped 3K in a few weeks at the tack store - one would think that I had money to spare, but it was just a one time thing.

It is interesting to look at the demographic in another light - maybe those with higher paying jobs spend so much time in their offices that they get on sights like this to relieve the stress every once in a while. Eating lunch in the office and looking at the horse forums to escape the unescapable office for a few moments.

[horsefree]

I just recall DT publishing the demographics of their readers a few years ago, and I was insulted enough I never renewed. I suspect CotH is similar--though the BOARDS may not reflect the subscribers.


I'm sure you're right that the demographics of the forum look different than those of the publication, but if you are interested, here is the COTH demographic profile:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=10508041236409

[BarbB]

You are all right about income being relative, but national magazines do track their demographics on a national level, assuming that the people using the information are aware that it is more expensive to live in LA than in Amarillo. It gives an overall picture. Demographics are used by advertisers to help determine whether or not someone reading this publication would be interested in buying their product. There is a lot more to "demographics" than income. That is just once facet.

I just recall DT publishing the demographics of their readers a few years ago, and I was insulted enough I never renewed. I suspect CotH is similar--though the BOARDS may not reflect the subscribers.

Why on earth would you feel insulted? Demographics are just part of doing business. They are statistics and averages.


Where is the poll? I want to skew the results down with my income. :D

[warmbloodzrock]

Well, I represent the 'Po Gurl population! :lol: I know this is an expensive sport but let me just say...I am a college student who gets between $600-$1,000 a month from my parents and I can still afford to have a horse and show locally. I work/live on the property where my horse is. I work off my rent and my horses board. I also work off lessons. However, I still have bills to pay and I can still afford a horse. So, let that be motivation for anyone else who reads this thread and makes less than 20K!! ;)

[ToN Farm]

The high paying jobs aren't just time-intensive. They drain you mentally and physically, and you're scared - ALL the time, pretty much, wondering what the he** is going to happen tomorrow and who else is going to kick your *** around the block, and what is being said about your performance behind your back - if you are in any sort of mental condition to ride after all that for 16 hrs, you probably don't have a boarding barn that would allow you to ride at 10 or 11 pm!BTDT, and I can tell you have, too. I'm retired now, and I do miss the big salary. But what good is it if you never have time to enjoy the money. And like you said, the worry of losing your job is always hanging over your head.

Are those salaries single person income or family? I've lost track of what salaries are. I know that last I heard they were pay $15 a hour to be a cashier at the local Shop-Rite Market.

[Flipper K.]

Sixteen hours is very often a short day, and I've come in at 7, worked til 4:30 am, come in at 8:30 am, and been asked, 'Why didn't you get in at 7:30? Two hours of sleep is plenty.' I've also been told I couldn't take an hour lunch to get my car fixed, that i needed to get drunk with the boss and 'get to know him better', and a whole lot of other things. These jobs aren't a lot of fun.




Umm, just a thought -- you might get your work done in 8 hours if you didn't post all day long ... just something I've noticed.

I have a high-paying job, put in an average of 11 hours a day, and hardly come on the boards except at lunch -- for 10 min. while I eat at my desk. And as you can see from my post history, I mostly read, not post.

If you have a job as slc describes, how do you post as slc does?

Mysteries of the Universe ...

[slc2]

sometimes one doesn't have a job. and sometimes one has a sugar daddy :)

[Bugsey_2007]

It sounded to me like you were a sex slave not that you had a sugar daddy.

Sometimes one has a lovely rich husband AND a job messing about with horses :D

I've gone and done the poll and done it wrong. I've done it thinking it was £ and its not its $ so really I'm earning twice as much as I said I was.

I'm blonde :yes:

[Ambrey]

Umm, just a thought -- you might get your work done in 8 hours if you didn't post all day long ... just something I've noticed.

Hey, I have an idea! Let's forget what the topic and make this a post about SLC's posting habits!

:rolleyes:

One of my best girlfriends is a lawyer. She recently gave up a job that required her to work ALL THE TIME! Yet, she wasn't BUSY all the time. She just had to be there. Because when she was working on a deal, they wanted what they wanted when they wanted it, and to hell with her husband, 3 kids, or anything else.

I was an engineer and never worked much overtime, but still with work and commuting I didn't feel like I had much time for extras. Plus, I had to travel fairly frequently. I can't imagine even owning a horse at that point. Now, I am an at home mom, and do horses while the kids are in school.

[jesterjigger]

So are we supposed to answer regarding joint income? Or sole income?

And as far as the college student getting $600-1000 from her parents...lucky you! I lived off of a $200 stipend my first two years of college, $300 my third, and $400 my fourth. Of course, I was going to college in NYC so the price of everything was more than the small town in Ohio I was from.

[Ajierene]

I received nothing - well, I did get a car from my dad. I had a part time job to afford my horses. My dad stopped paying for college halfway through my first year, so there went that also....Just sayin - we should all count our blessings!

My step-sister has a trust fund *sigh*

[~Freedom~]

I'm told my perception of the demographics on this board are wrong. This is anonymous and I'd be REALLY interested in the results. I actually HOPE I'm wrong...

What is your average annual income?

Other.

[Tiligsmom]

Enough of the snarkiness regarding SLC... GEEEZ.... anytime she posts, several of you jump on it with personal attacks. I really don't get it.

[pintopiaffe]

It is interesting to look at the demographic in another light - maybe those with higher paying jobs spend so much time in their offices that they get on sights like this to relieve the stress every once in a while. Eating lunch in the office and looking at the horse forums to escape the unescapable office for a few moments.

Good point! Or--high speed 'net at work, so post more. :lol:

I'm really just *interested.* I think my perception might be off. I'm not going to "do" anything with the information... I just think it's interesting. The 'what cost GP' thread just got me thinkin' (which is always dangerous.)

The thing I've always thought, is you can work a crap job for big money. Or a great job for crap money. You can work horrible hours for big money, or great hours for little money.

I chose great job/great hours--crap pay. I work 16-02 and so have the daylight hours free to do the farm thing. I get up and do the horses BEFORE work, I could never, ever do the horse thing after work, at least after MY work. Some days it's all I can do to get home and feed and fall into bed. Two of my PT jobs leave me TONS of free time to 'look busy' and use the high speed 'net. So I post a lot, sometimes. :lol:

Interesting perspectives on the answers too. I DO think I've misjudged slightly, OTOH, the numbers (if they are honest) agree with my perception.

[poltroon]

NO, no, no... I don't mean low end demographics in that regard--I just mean low income. And YES that includes starving students, artists, some teachers... hell, many full time horse professionals are barely above the poverty line!

I just mean folks who can't afford to pop $100 or more on a lesson come to rely boards like this --I do!

I've relied on this board both when I could easily do $100 lessons and when I couldn't. :D It's a great resource.

I'm a computer programmer and I spend a lot of time waiting for scripts to run. Sadly, it's frequently necessary for me to to that work at late and crazy hours. At those times I'm really glad to have COTH to keep me awake! (On the good side, then I can take a long lunch and ride during the day.)

[pintopiaffe]

Trust fund, Sugar Daddy... I'll go for ANY of 'em. Good work if you can get it. :lol: But I am always a little sad when I read posts from females semi-desperate for a 'relationship' or 'partner.' SURE it would make the bills WAY easier to pay... but I'm sad at the thought that people can't feel complete or valued or... I dunno... whole... without an 'other half.' Then again I'll be the crazy old dog/cat/horse lady, the old spinster found dead surrounded by her critters... :lol: :uhoh:

Just occurs to me I'll probably really regret stirring this pot up tomorrow... this afternoon when t-storms kept me from riding on a precious and rare DAY OFF, I was slightly distracted and wanted to KNOW things. :lol:

[jesterjigger]

I went the free education, decent paying job, crappy hours route. It didn't really start paying off until now though (4-5 years into working) but that's ok, because at least now I see a chance. At least now if I get deployed I can put my horse in training for the duration I'm gone, so at least she'll get better while I'm gone!

[cwill]

I missed the option for under $5,000 a year and about $12,000 in student debts:eek::eek: (college student- horseless:cry:)

[Carol O]

Household or personal income? Net or gross (which can be really gross when compared to the net; like almost half!).

[~Freedom~]

I missed the option for under $5,000 a year and about $12,000 in student debts:eek::eek: (college student- horseless:cry:)

It is called "other" like I posted. Anything $19,000.00 and under and we are supposed to be invisible to the OP.:eek:

For while she may cry out that she is poor, anyone that has the amount of horses she does and can pull out any amount for a lesson and be concerned about even able to look at new boots is not poor by a long shot in my eyes.

[Sabine]

This thread is an interesting read. Many different views. I think it hugely depends on where you live in this vast country- and if you can keep your horses at home or have to pay for board somewhere else. It appears that mostly the coasts are more expensive than the interior parts of the country.
If you have your own, established business you might be better off- as you can better influence time and work-arounds than an employee usually can.
Strictly going from the saddle prices- might give the wrong impression- as all dressage riders have to have a saddle and there are versions from 200-6000 available...
The importance one adds to a saddle varies as well. By and large though- to be honest- buying a good dressage horse, training it, showing it and keeping it in a reasonably well suited place (your own or someone elses) costs a great deal of money- it is an expensive sport and requires sacrifices from all- prioritizing, streamlining and focusing on what is really needed versus what is frivolous.

Given the current gas prices I believe our economy is going into a very tough time and this will affect everyone- top to bottom. Thus it's a good time to examine every little expense and determine if it's really a value add or a luxury. This would be step one, after that it's just plain cutting back.

[Fixerupper]

Don't remember all the details but read stats a number of years ago (like 8/10).... largest (not only) demographic of horse owning population:

female
with post secondary / professional education
earning over $40K (now = over $50/60K)
with good internet skills... :lol:

[~Freedom~]

female
with good internet skills... :lol:

You can also add...with good imaginations and "google" skills.;)

[Fixerupper]

:lol::lol:

[Ambrey]

Trust fund, Sugar Daddy... I'll go for ANY of 'em. Good work if you can get it. :lol: But I am always a little sad when I read posts from females semi-desperate for a 'relationship' or 'partner.' SURE it would make the bills WAY easier to pay... but I'm sad at the thought that people can't feel complete or valued or... I dunno... whole... without an 'other half.' Then again I'll be the crazy old dog/cat/horse lady, the old spinster found dead surrounded by her critters... :lol: :uhoh:

LOL!

I've been married for ... uh... (counts in head) 12 1/2 years. When we got married my husband didn't make much and didn't know what he wanted to do with his life, and I had a great job. But, things change :)

He lets me spend money on the horse, what more can I ask for? :lol:

[rileyt]

By the standards posted in the poll options, I'm "phenomenally rich". So tell me, why is it that I still can't afford a horse?

A lot of it is an issue of priorities. I know people who make very meager/average existences... and have jobs that pay 30-50K annually. Yet they find a way to own a horse. And pay for lessons. It might not be 3 times a week, but the smart people get GOOD instruction when they can afford it.

For me, I have 2 kids, 2 college funds, retirement funds I need to max out, etc. etc.

You might say I'm very "risk averse" financially.

So, COULD I afford a nice horse, and twice weekly lessons at $100 pop? Sure. But it would have to come at the expense of some other things... my nice house with good school districts, my kids' college funds, etc... Not to mention, throwing $2000/month down on my "hobby" is something I have a really hard time coming to grips with. That is my family's resources -- not mine. If my husband wanted to spend $2K/month skydiving, I think I'd have a huge problem with that. But its just how I was raised.

A lot of it is a matter of priorities and perspective. Most of my friends who do this on 30-50K a year have one single major expense: their horse. They rent apartments, or have have small houses. The vast majority of them are single. They don't have kids to take care of, etc.

[JB]

I personally find the current poll results (203 votes) very interesting, and wonder if they reflect the same type of trend in either the 1) overall horse owning population and/or 2) the overall population in general. I particularly find it interesting the jump between the 60-75K and 75K ranges. I find it completely expected to see the higher low range and working down from there (until the 60k range).

I think PP needs to start another poll - one that asks which time zone people live in. That might give some correlation (assuming the same people vote) between area of the country and income. Right?

[charismaryllis]

--or how age correlates. i'm towards the upper end of income (provided they don't fire me soon :D ) but i've also been working full time for .... -fingers out- 23 years. (and part time in college.)

:( dang i feel old.....

[Ambrey]

I wonder how many of the 20-30s are parent augmented, though.

I live on the west coast, am in the higher end, and would NOT be able to afford a horse if we hadn't bought our home in 1995 when prices were low. We also forego a lot of luxuries- we both drive Mazdas instead of BMWs, haven't bought new furniture... uh, ever (luckily we inherited a lot of nice stuff, or our house would be full of garbage!), have never been to Hawaii or Cancun, etc.

I also have 2 kids to send to college and buy summer camps and activities and new clothes for, plus my daughter is in lessons. If we had the same income and were childless we'd have a lot more discretionary!

[Eclectic Horseman]

Need to start a poll-

The income source is far more important than the amount. For one reason, people with high earned income from wages generally do not have much time to devote to riding.

How many people have:

(1) earned income from wages

(2) live on a trust fund or inheritance

(3) live on retirement funds

(4) live on spouse or SO's income

(5) live on parent's income

(6) live on earnings from assets

(7) a mix of any of the above

[Ambrey]

So start one!

[Eclectic Horseman]

So start one!


I still don't think it will tell you much unless you know how much disposable income one has. In other words, if you are paying college tuition for yourself or a child, or paying assisted living costs for elderly parents, you can make a fortune and it isn't enough!

[Ambrey]

I still don't think it will tell you much unless you know how much disposable income one has. In other words, if you are paying college tuition for yourself or a child, or paying assisted living costs for elderly parents, you can make a fortune and it isn't enough!

Totally agreed :) I just think PP wanted a general demographic, not an idea of exactly how many people can and can't afford regular training.

Just the idea that some people have a $50,000 mortgage and some people have a $500,000 mortgage makes a huge difference in disposable income. There are way too many factors to cover on a board.

[akrogirl]

If a family of 3 in California is making less than $75K, they are entitled to the substituted housing for poor people, 20% off their electricity bills and other perks. In Arizona, $75K for family of 3 is a luxury and they can live in 3,000.00+ sq. f. house.

It's not the annual income that matters, its how much money you have left after paying your necessities.

I live in AZ and $75K a year won't get you much of anything around us! That would barely qualify someone for my old 1,400 sq. ft. town home, which last sold for $260,000.

We spoke to a realtor yesterday at an open house and he said the big demand is for the $250,000 and under homes, because the average family income is still in the $40-$50k range.

The 3,000 sq. ft. houses near us are $400,000 and up.

[DownYonder]

I live in AZ and $75K a year won't get you much of anything around us! That would barely qualify someone for my old 1,400 sq. ft. town home, which last sold for $260,000.

We spoke to a realtor yesterday at an open house and he said the big demand is for the $250,000 and under homes, because the average family income is still in the $40-$50k range.

The 3,000 sq. ft. houses near us are $400,000 and up.

Same here. I am in a "wealthy" and fast-developing suburb of north Atlanta, and most of the new developments around here are in the $800K to $1.5 million range. And sadly, most are sitting on what used to be horse farms, or woods where we used to trail ride.

[akrogirl]

Same here. I am in a "wealthy" and fast-developing suburb of north Atlanta, and most of the new developments around here are in the $800K to $1.5 million range. And sadly, most are sitting on what used to be horse farms, or woods where we used to trail ride.

Yep, many of the horse properties around us are sub-dividing to the minimum - usually one acre or so - luckily that hasn't happened in our little area, so far. Empty 1/2 acre lots are still going for $235 - $350K, and up to $1million plus in some of the more exclusive areas!

[Dressage Art]

I live in AZ and $75K a year won't get you much of anything around us! That would barely qualify someone for my old 1,400 sq. ft. town home, which last sold for $260,000.

We spoke to a realtor yesterday at an open house and he said the big demand is for the $250,000 and under homes, because the average family income is still in the $40-$50k range.

The 3,000 sq. ft. houses near us are $400,000 and up.

N. CA simply doesn't have homes for $250,000 and under :( You are lucky that you can still get the 3,000 sq. ft. houses for $400,000. This is what you can get in N. California for $400,000: (less than 1200 sf old fixeruper) http://www.homes.com/Content/ListingSearchResults.cfm?City=PLEASANTON&State=CA&Bedrooms=&FullBaths=&MinPrice=400000&MaxPrice=&PriceRange=&AmenitiesList=&PropType=*&TotalRecs=61&MinSqFt=&MaxSqFt=&LotSize=&MinYear=&MaxYear=&Canada=0&OrderBy=PRICE%3AA

And those are homes that you can get for $400,000.00 in your area in Arizona:
http://www.homes.com/Content/ListingSearchResults.cfm?City=GILBERT&State=AZ&Bedrooms=&FullBaths=&MinPrice=400000&MaxPrice=&PriceRange=&AmenitiesList=&PropType=*&TotalRecs=136&MinSqFt=&MaxSqFt=&LotSize=&MinYear=&MaxYear=&Canada=0&OrderBy=PRICE%3AA

In N. CA the price is about triple/double of AZ? So if you feel that you don't have enough money with $75K salary in AZ - people in N. CA are barely surviving with this $. My point was that even $75K seems a good salary, in some areas of US it is almost a poverty line.

PS: Now add the difference in stall/paddock board rate (it's about $700 basic care here)...

[Ambrey]

The house next door is 1600 sf and was last on the market at $719,000. This is on a postage stamp (6000 sf) lot.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I am lucky in this regard. What I was paying per month for a crappy one bedroom apartment in an old building populated by Boston U frat boys that had been kicked out of their fraternities for rowdiness was the same as the mortgage (with insurance, at then 8%) I was paying on a 3 story townhouse in a decent section of St. Louis, simply because of property values. What I pay for board now, in 2008 is still lower than what I would have paid for board on Long Island in 1975.

My parents want me to move back to LI. There are barns here for Ted, they say. But no pasture turnout. And gas is 25 cents a gallon higher. Pizza costs twice as much. And board will eat up my retirement savings.

[FriesianX]

One of my first "real" jobs was with an international firm - and I ended up on a job with a senior supervisor from Louisiana (he was brought in for a specific project). I made the same salary he did! At first he was REALLY upset with that, but once we started comparing what $24,000 could buy (this was back in the late 80s, ahem, yeah, I guess I'm not 30 anymore)... He could buy a nice custom house on a manicured acre for $40,000. I couldn't buy a one-bedroom condo in the slums for that! He was continiously shocked at our prices - everytime we had to spend money, it was an eye opener.

That is one reason this survey really doesn't work! As DressageArt points out - board in CA is pricey. I'm in a less expensive part of No-Cal, and we still see board at $400 to $700/month. Pasture board, IF (BIG IF) you can find it runs $300 or so. Full training with a decent dressage trainer (including board) will run $1000 to $1500 monthly.

If you live in a populated part of CA, or in Las Vegas, or near Scottsdale, or on the East Coast anywhere commutable to New York or DC, your cost of living will be MUCH different than if you live in the Mid-West. In Canada, if you live in British Columbia, you have much higher costs than if you live in Alberta. I haven't named ALL the pricey areas, but the range of costs is huge. Our local paper sometimes features "what X$ will buy you" in different areas of the US, and it is shocking. Pictures of hovels near Los Angeles and mansions in Wisconson and Kansas! It makes me want to move until I hear about the winters ;)

Maybe the survey should just ask - can you comfortably afford to pay for four lessons monthly at: a)$10/lesson, b)$25/lesson, c)$50/lesson, d)$100/lesson, e)$150/lesson, f)no lessons are affordable.

[pintopiaffe]

hm. 2300+ views and less than 300 votes.

[~Freedom~]

hm. 2300+ views and less than 300 votes.

Maybe because some some values were missing ?

Anyways I voted in the thread because there was no spot for me.

[poltroon]

hm. 2300+ views and less than 300 votes.

2300 distinct views could be, say, 600 people clicking on the thread 4 times each. :)

[cheekyhorse]

hmmmmmmmm, interesting thread. I'll say one thing, the cost of living where I am from is through the roof expensive, you need about $1000 a month just to spend on gasoline for your truck! House prices are insane, $500,000 + in the suburbs for a new 3000 sq foot home in a subdivision....acreages are in the millions. Don't live in BC......:)

[NCSue]

INCOME??? In horse business????

Anna

I was thinking much the same thing. Wasn't a category low enough for my yearly horse income. :winkgrin:

[merrygoround]

Sometimes, it's not how much you make, but how you prioritize it. :)

[Tory Relic]

BTDT, and I can tell you have, too. I'm retired now, and I do miss the big salary. But what good is it if you never have time to enjoy the money. And like you said, the worry of losing your job is always hanging over your head.

Are those salaries single person income or family? I've lost track of what salaries are. I know that last I heard they were pay $15 a hour to be a cashier at the local Shop-Rite Market.

Good question. I replied with my income only, not my husband's. Not that it would have matter all that much in the outcome. ;)

[CatOnLap]

hmmmmmmmm, interesting thread. I'll say one thing, the cost of living where I am from is through the roof expensive, you need about $1000 a month just to spend on gasoline for your truck! House prices are insane, $500,000 + in the suburbs for a new 3000 sq foot home in a subdivision....acreages are in the millions. Don't live in BC......:)

I agree DON'T live in BC. Maybe then our housing prices and cost of living will go down because all the foreigners buying up our land will go home...hahahaha like thats going to happen when you live in the absolute finest place on the planet.


So, nearly 400 votes and over half are above the top income bracket on the poll. Here, you get subsidized housing if your earned income is less than $36,000 a year. Poll options need to be upped.

[xQHDQ]

Okay Pintopiaffe.... Are you getting the results you thought you would?

[Wild Oaks Farm]

I voted, but is this based on my sole income or my income combined with by husbands? He makes twice my salary and then some, so it would put is a different category entirely...

But even then, we don't live one penny above our means and I think we have a good grasp of what it costs to really live...I know lots of people who make a lot less and have a lot more and I am constantly amazed at how they have so much "stuff" and still have money left over for more "stuff!"

Also, we came from CA and it's amazing how much farther out money goes here. Yes, I got chased and harassed by a huge horsefly for 1/4 of a mile yesterday when I went on my walk and then nearly stepped on a snake, I am always swatting mosquitos, wasps and other horrendous bugs off of my body and my dog always smells like a dead animal, it's too hot to ride for half of the year and too cold to ride the other half, and I still have nightmares about the grasshopper infestation we had a few years ago, but I have a house and my horses have a pasture so I'm staying! :D

[flshgordon]

I feel the poll isn't going to be helpful.

Because it's a fallacy that a high paying job automatically makes it easier to do dressage.

Most of those high paying jobs, they think they own you, 24/7, 365 days a year. I have never had a good job that was any other way, and most of the people I talk to have the exact same problem.

The high paying jobs aren't just time-intensive. They drain you mentally and physically, and you're scared - ALL the time, pretty much, wondering what the he** is going to happen tomorrow and who else is going to kick your *** around the block, and what is being said about your performance behind your back - if you are in any sort of mental condition to ride after all that for 16 hrs, you probably don't have a boarding barn that would allow you to ride at 10 or 11 pm!

Sixteen hours is very often a short day, and I've come in at 7, worked til 4:30 am, come in at 8:30 am, and been asked, 'Why didn't you get in at 7:30? Two hours of sleep is plenty.' I've also been told I couldn't take an hour lunch to get my car fixed, that i needed to get drunk with the boss and 'get to know him better', and a whole lot of other things. These jobs aren't a lot of fun.

When I applied for one job, I told the guy I would need a week or two to move my horse, after accepting their offer.

Do you know what he said?

"Sell the f****** horse. I own you'.

And he pointed to a cot out in the hall and said, 'You won't even need to get an apartment. You'll be here'.

I have struggled for over fifteen years to make a 'great, high paying job' allow me to do dressage. It isn't that easy. As my SO said, 'Great horse, too bad you never get to see it'. SOML..........

I mean this in all seriousness....Are you for real???? :confused:

[edit] I have a very good job that I like but no way am I going to consider taking a job where I'm treated like the above.

Not everyone with a higher paying job slaves night and day with 3 hours sleep and rides their horse at 2 in the morning. :rolleyes:

It's called time-management and I would almost bet money that most (not all) people with high paying jobs that say they have no time to ride, have a time management problem. I know lots of them personally. We all make sacrifices and sure there are work deadlines where you may not ride for a week or two, but in general you just have to make the time to get what you want. Go to the grocery store and run errands at lunch so you can go to the barn after work. Order stuff online so you don't have to shop in crowded stores. There are many ways to improve your time management so that once you do have the finances to support your habit, you don't have to give it all up after all.

[MyReality]

Somebody has to enlighten me as to how this thread is started.

Nonetheless, it's an interesting thread.

Salary is usually a good indicator of many sorts, as it more usually than not, reflect the cost of living. Statistically, we see costs as percentages of a salary... and 25-30% on housing is the norm. You are supposed to spend less when you earn less, spend more if you earn more.

You are supposed to have more free time when you earn more as well. If you say you have to work a lot with your high paying job, that's your own choice, and not to do with general economics. But if you earn not enough, you must work more, that is economics.

Income is usually per household.

[slc2]

flshgordon, no need to be insulting when you don't agree with me. i don't always agree with all your posts but i don't stoop to the level of personal insults to you and name calling when i don't agree with one of YOUR posts.

i suppose i could say something insulting right back, but i'll just leave it at saying your idea of 'managing time better' to turn a 12-16 hr a day job into a 7-8 hr a day job means that you just do not understand what these jobs are like. that just isn't how that sort of job works. your idea of using a 'lunch hour' to run errands with this sort of job is...quaint. there is no lunch hour. weekends? well, one is usually working weekends. vacation? oh, sorry, it just got canceled. someone else in your group just quit, and you have to do their project now. i've worked places that gave me 4 wks of vacation, and i never got to use a single day of it.

there are jobs that are just not compatible with doing anything else. they can't be made into 8 hr a day weekday jobs. they just aren't like that. i know people that wear two pagers and never really 'leave' their job at all. they are basically on call 24/7, 365 a year, 24 hrs a day.

sure, some jobs can be improved on. better technology, a new manager...time management, sure. but companies vary a great deal in what they expect and jobs vary even within a given company. i think I.T. jobs can be particularly bad as so many companies have made cutbacks and double-or-triple-loaded the remaining employees, but no part of a business is free of that. these jobs are non union, and if one doesn't like it, well, there is an army of unemployed college grads and a whole bunch of unemployed people in India who will like it.

i think some people here have had jobs like this, and i feel it's no easier for them to concentrate on dressage than for someone who lacks funds. i also know a lot of people who have gotten sick of the rat race and taken lower paying jobs so they can have a better QOL, too.

and i feel my original point is still legitimate, even if you don't agree - money isn't everything. if you never have time to ride, it doesn't help much at all.

[Eclectic Horseman]

flshgordon & others-

Wow, many of the folks I know who are really high earners (and it is not in salary anymore, it is in bonuses that may or may not be given each year depending on how the company is doing) have a ton of TRAVEL, national and international. Travel is an absolute bear. What can you do when you are in a hotel room in a strange city? You can't even do personal errands for the most part even when you aren't actually working or socializing with clients. These are the VP business type jobs.

Other high end earners that I know have a certain impossible number of billable hours to log in.

Time management, my a$$. That being said, these folks often have enough money to have multiple fancy horses in full training. When they do find the time to hop on, the horses are gassed up and ready to go.

[Lisa Cook]

Yep, time management isn't easy with travel. I'm leaving for an event on Friday, but I'll be in a meeting a few hundred miles away this Wed & Thursday. Kind of hard to simply time manage that to fit riding in. It is a bummer to be away the 2 days before I leave for a competition.

They REALLY need to offer a "Working Moms with Full Time Jobs" divisions at horse shows. :) (I've noticed that the division I'm in at the event this weekend has several professionals. Think they will give their horses 2 days off before leaving for the event, just to level the playing field? ;))

[flshgordon]

flshgordon & others-

Wow, many of the folks I know who are really high earners (and it is not in salary anymore, it is in bonuses that may or may not be given each year depending on how the company is doing) have a ton of TRAVEL, national and international. Travel is an absolute bear. What can you do when you are in a hotel room in a strange city? You can't even do personal errands for the most part even when you aren't actually working or socializing with clients. These are the VP business type jobs.

Other high end earners that I know have a certain impossible number of billable hours to log in.

Time management, my a$$. That being said, these folks often have enough money to have multiple fancy horses in full training. When they do find the time to hop on, the horses are gassed up and ready to go.


I travel on average between 4 and 12 days a month so I'd say that's a pretty good chunk of time. No I don't have maximum billable hours. I would not have a job where that were the requirement because I can't imagine being happy. But I do work my @ss off in the smallest amount of time possible so that I can have a life. It means being more productive in a smaller amount of time. A large percentage of people goof off a lot....even in their high paid jobs and have no idea how much more time they would have if they managed a little better. No it's not possible for everyone, but for a lot of people it would be.

[flshgordon]

flshgordon, no need to be insulting when you don't agree with me. i don't always agree with all your posts but i don't stoop to the level of personal insults to you and name calling when i don't agree with one of YOUR posts.

i suppose i could say something insulting right back, but i'll just leave it at saying your idea of 'managing time better' to turn a 12-16 hr a day job into a 7-8 hr a day job means that you just do not understand what these jobs are like. that just isn't how that sort of job works. your idea of using a 'lunch hour' to run errands with this sort of job is...quaint. there is no lunch hour. weekends? well, one is usually working weekends. vacation? oh, sorry, it just got canceled. someone else in your group just quit, and you have to do their project now. i've worked places that gave me 4 wks of vacation, and i never got to use a single day of it.

there are jobs that are just not compatible with doing anything else. they can't be made into 8 hr a day weekday jobs. they just aren't like that. i know people that wear two pagers and never really 'leave' their job at all. they are basically on call 24/7, 365 a year, 24 hrs a day.

sure, some jobs can be improved on. better technology, a new manager...time management, sure. but companies vary a great deal in what they expect and jobs vary even within a given company. i think I.T. jobs can be particularly bad as so many companies have made cutbacks and double-or-triple-loaded the remaining employees, but no part of a business is free of that. these jobs are non union, and if one doesn't like it, well, there is an army of unemployed college grads and a whole bunch of unemployed people in India who will like it.

i think some people here have had jobs like this, and i feel it's no easier for them to concentrate on dressage than for someone who lacks funds. i also know a lot of people who have gotten sick of the rat race and taken lower paying jobs so they can have a better QOL, too.

and i feel my original point is still legitimate, even if you don't agree - money isn't everything. if you never have time to ride, it doesn't help much at all.


If that is your life where you have no time to live, breathe, shop for groceries or brush your teeth, then seriously....how would you ever get time. You never would. I just don't believe what you've written that's all. 16 hours a day x7days is 112 hours. that leaves you 8 hours a day to do everything else you need to do in life---eat, sleep, shop, ride, shower, commute. It's just not possible.

"money isn't everything. if you never have time to ride, it doesn't help much at all"...at least we agree on this which was part of my point. Why bother with the job you describe above? You have all this money or recognition or whatever, and no time to do anything. So don't put yourself in that position.

Money isn't everything and definitely not every job is compatible with riding. Yours appears not to be, yet you have hours to spend on the computer here. Hence my call for "time management"....

[SGray]

If a family of 3 in California is making less than $75K, they are entitled to the substituted housing for poor people, 20% off their electricity bills and other perks. In Arizona, $75K for family of 3 is a luxury and they can live in 3,000.00+ sq. f. house.

It's not the annual income that matters, its how much money you have left after paying your necessities.

true - disposable income is what we spend on horses


so we should ask for net income after: taxes, mortgage/rent, utilities, ......what else? I have a hard time on food - is that all food? what you cook at home (restaurants being frills)? what about fuel? (only to/from work?) car payments? (how do you account for the used civic vs. the new lexus discrepancy?)

[sketcher]

Yah, pp, I know what you mean, and since it's been brought up, I'm a bit curious, too (caveats already well-described notwithstanding ... it's interesting as a purely academic exercise). I'm also mildly surprised at the results of the poll so far, with the middle ranges being the least represented.


I think maybe the highest range should really be the middle range... In some parts of the country, 120 or 130k is not necessarily a lot of money. Maybe make the top range 150k and above and you'll see more of a bell curve.

[MyReality]

You guys are driving me crazy. :eek:

I don't know what some of you are trying to say... are you saying earning 120,000 is not a lot of money, or does not mean there isn't always a lot of money to spend on horses?

Let me try to convince you... statistics do not lie whatsoever. Put simply, there will be way way way more people who earn 120,000, and can afford a horse and nice saddle (regardless of how much gas they pay, how many kids they have, how much they dine out etc etc etc)... then people who earn 20,000, and can still afford a horse and a saddle. It means this sports is mostly for richer people.

If you correlate income and horses, I am willing to bet it will be quite strongly positively correlated.

Think about it, poor people rich people, have to pay for food/utilities just the same, they have children just the same, and other expenses. Many aspects of life is proportional to your gross income, including how we spend our money on leisure, and the type of housing. The fact that this survey shows over half of us earn more than 75,000 a year, speaks volumn.

[MyReality]

It would be more meaningful if the survey is measured against some national average, and based on household income.

[slc2]

"so don't put yourself in that position"

i'm afraid you don't quite understand. alot of people have to work at jobs like that.

and yes, quite a few people 'drop out' and try other things. but it isn't all that easy to do that, and you lose alot.

My point once again is that you really can't compare people by income that easily.

I know one lady who has no money at all. She cleans stalls, and gets lessons with one of the top american trainers, she rides all the rough stuff too. she lives in a trailer with a friend. she has no horse of her own. she can't afford it. she has no college degree. she works in a restaurant. she rides beautifully and will probably work her way right on up to a national title some day.

I know another lady who lives on a trust fund, and has no end of money. She's never worked a day of her life. And she struggles to ride between many other obligations and despite being able to buy an expensive saddle, she isn't really doing anywhere near as well as she hoped.

I know a woman who make 140,000 a year each and 280,000 as a couple, and have ageing parents and college kids to pay for, and one special needs kid that requires residential facility. they literally cannot afford a horse, riding lessons, or an expensive saddle. i know a guy who makes about 200,000 a year and just declared bankruptcy. i know someone else who nets a tenth of that and spends all of it on lessons and training (husband pays for everything else).

You can't judge other people. You can't just take a poll and decide who to hate and be jealous of, or who 'has an easy time of it' and who doesn't. It just isn't that simple.

EVERY path has its challenges. none are easy.

being able to buy an expensive saddle doesn't make a rider succesful, most of my riding friends have never even bought a new saddle. there is no guarantee that an expensive saddle is a better fit than a cheap one. the best saddle i ever had cost 900 dollars and was rather old. i don't know how an expensive saddle ever became such a big deal.

[~Freedom~]

I just don't believe what you've written that's all. 16 hours a day x7days is 112 hours. that leaves you 8 hours a day to do everything else you need to do in life---eat, sleep, shop, ride, shower, commute. It's just not possible.



Ah so now I know why the capitols are missing in her posts, it takes too much time.;)

[Gucci Cowgirl]

[quote=Dressage Art;3255961]If a family of 3 in California is making less than $75K, they are entitled to the substituted housing for poor people, 20% off their electricity bills and other perks. In Arizona, $75K for family of 3 is a luxury and they can live in 3,000.00+ sq. f. house.

[quote]

Where in Arizona is this accurate?

I live in Scottsdale and I can assure you by no means is 75k/yr luxury! Most of the homes around here cost upwards of 2 million dollars. Most of Phoenix is the same....really far south or really far north maybe 75K is doable, but nobody I know could survive on that here...just a drink at the bar is over 10 each at most places!! a dinner is $30!

[LD1129]

I make possibly about 22,000 a year. I work in education and while it makes no money I get the time off I need to show throughout the season. I also have a Masters degree if that helps:confused:.

I still manage to buy a horse (4 year old Hanoverian), make sure he gets everything he needs, show (recognized and schooling), 2 lessons a week, I work 8-9 hour days and ride about 2 horses a night.

I spend about $400 a week on gas for my car since I live about 1 hour away from the farm (im too close to the city :no:) I am at the barn 6-7 days a week after work and on weeekends.

I also pay my car, insurance, horse insurance, bills, and phone.

Thank god my parents still let me live at home rent free or else I would be living in a box :cry:

It sucks but I try to make it all work :)

[Sdhaurmsmom]

Combined, it's one number. My income seperate from my husband's is quite a bit less. You meant combined if applicable, correct?:lol:

[Sdhaurmsmom]

Enough of the snarkiness regarding SLC... GEEEZ.... anytime she posts, several of you jump on it with personal attacks. I really don't get it.

Just report the post as harassment. That's what the little red triangle in the upper right hand corner of each person's post is for. It's what I do...:yes:

I don't get it either, and I'm damned sick of it.

[Moderator 1]

Yup, in general, please don't let personal issues between posters invade threads. You're welcome to question statements/opinions as part of the related discussion, but keep in mind that there are lots of other people reading and participating in the threads, and "stick poking" degrades the reading experience for those not holding the sticks.

Plus, it's not nice. ;)

You're, of course, welcome to disagree with each other and discuss why that's the case--as it pertains to the main discussion. The vast majority of readers can likely form their own opinions about the value of posters' comments, so the personal commentary is not necessary or appropriate.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Dressage Art]

[quote=Dressage Art;3255961]If a family of 3 in California is making less than $75K, they are entitled to the substituted housing for poor people, 20% off their electricity bills and other perks. In Arizona, $75K for family of 3 is a luxury and they can live in 3,000.00+ sq. f. house.

[quote]

Where in Arizona is this accurate?

I live in Scottsdale and I can assure you by no means is 75k/yr luxury! Most of the homes around here cost upwards of 2 million dollars. Most of Phoenix is the same....really far south or really far north maybe 75K is doable, but nobody I know could survive on that here...just a drink at the bar is over 10 each at most places!! a dinner is $30!

May be not in the cream de la cream neighborhood of Scottsdale or Paradise Valley with their $$$$$ mansions, but there are plenty places in AZ where $75K per year is a good income. Please see my earlier post with the link to real estate comparison of AZ and N. CA. You can buy $400,000.00 house with 3,000 sf in AZ for income of $75K - you can get qualified. It is considered the HIGH END of the AZ real estate market now.

In N. CA for the same money, you will buy a ran down fixer upper condo with a 1,000.00 sf that needs a new a/c, heater, roof, carpet, kitchen and so on. The real estate market in N. CA starts at $400,000.00 for the worst of the worst and smallest of the small - the LOW END of the N. CA real estate market. In N. CA 3,000 sf IS considered to be a luxury.

My parents and parents in law live in AZ, I graduated from ASU. I owned a house in AZ. I visit AZ regularly. I know a little bit about AZ living compare to N. Ca living,... as many people who relocate to CA, we also had a sticker shock and couldn't believe how insanely expensive everything is. I can tell you that our money went much further in AZ and we had much more disposable income there than here. I love AZ, but I'm just not sure how dressage trainers ride in the heat all day there...

[FriesianX]

I mean this in all seriousness....Are you for real???? :confused:

It's called time-management and I would almost bet money that most (not all) people with high paying jobs that say they have no time to ride, have a time management problem. I know lots of them personally. We all make sacrifices and sure there are work deadlines where you may not ride for a week or two, but in general you just have to make the time to get what you want. Go to the grocery store and run errands at lunch so you can go to the barn after work. Order stuff online so you don't have to shop in crowded stores. There are many ways to improve your time management so that once you do have the finances to support your habit, you don't have to give it all up after all.

OK, this is a bit off topic, but I have to jump in... Flash Gordon, I don't think you understand how it is in some industries and some specialities. You don't have a choice - the better you manage your workload, the bigger your workload becomes! It depends on what industry and field you work in. I was one of those with a professional job that never ended. I was "on" 24/7, my boss would call me at home on weekends that I attempted to STAY home, I worked an entire year without a full day off.

For a while, I had a "part time job" - lasted 3 years in it, and I DID work less than most of my colleagues, but because I was fairly organized, I actually had a larger workload than many of the full timers. If you are in an industry that bills by the hour, the more hours you bill, the happier the bosses are.

My husband is STILL in that situation, and has been for 30 years - he and his partners work a ton of hours, pretty much 6 days/week year 'round, and I hesitate to say they ALL have time management issues.

It isn't a time management issue, it is common in some industries. There is a reason accountants and lawyers in high level jobs burn out more often than other professionals! The demands are much different in some fields then in others - it isn't time management, it is just the way of those professions.

Anyone who thinks "more money = more free time" isn't familiar with the demands of a high level job. Sure, if you INHERIT your money, then you have free time, but professional, high paying jobs pay more because - they demand more time, put more stress and responsibility on the employee. The employer pays for responsibility, time commitment, education, knowledge, stress, etc. Most management positions mean 50+ hours weekly - and more in a crunch. Crunches happen more than you might realize - and yes, they may be the result of poor time management, but usually the result of poor time management by SOMEONE ELSE - a customer, a supplier, a coworker, the government, etc.

Me, I quit that rat race and started my own consulting business - I still work like a dog half the year, then scale way back part of the year. I can do that because I am my own boss. And it allows me time to ride and breed my horses, but still earn income to PAY for the horses, lessons, training, showing, etc.

[FriesianX]

Gucci Girl and Dressage Art - I think you are BOTH right. There are places in both AZ and CA that are less expensive. In CA, you can live in Northern CA in the Central Valley, as long as you are not near one of the major cities (Sacramento, Stockton, Fresno) and it is dirt cheap too. You can live well on $75k and buy a house from under $100k. But if you want to be near any employment base (or a tourist mecca), it will cost you a LOT. AZ is like that too. From what I am hearing, so is Nevada and Washington and Oregon.

And that just shows why the poll won't work!

[akrogirl]

May be not in the cream de la cream neighborhood of Scottsdale or Paradise Valley with their $$$$$ mansions, but there are plenty places in AZ where $75K per year is a good income. Please see my earlier post with the link to real estate comparison of AZ and N. CA. You can buy $400,000.00 house with 3,000 sf in AZ for income of $75K - you can get qualified. It is considered the HIGH END of the AZ real estate market now.

In N. CA for the same money, you will buy a ran down fixer upper condo with a 1,000.00 sf that needs a new a/c, heater, roof, carpet, kitchen and so on. The real estate market in N. CA starts at $400,000.00 for the worst of the worst and smallest of the small - the LOW END of the N. CA real estate market. In N. CA 3,000 sf IS considered to be a luxury.

My parents and parents in law live in AZ, I graduated from ASU. I owned a house in AZ. I visit AZ regularly. I know a little bit about AZ living compare to N. Ca living,... as many people who relocate to CA, we also had a sticker shock and couldn't believe how insanely expensive everything is. I can tell you that our money went much further in AZ and we had much more disposable income there than here. I love AZ, but I'm just not sure how dressage trainers ride in the heat all day there...

$400,000 is no where near the high end in the metro-Phoenix area - and I live in the SE valley btw, not Scottsdale. $400,000 is still near the lower end for the houses being built around my area - it barely buys you an empty lot. And I'd love to know how you get qualified for a $400,000 house on a $75,000 income. Even if someone managed it, chances are they wouldn't be able to afford the air-conditioning bill, which is part of the reason we are having so many foreclosures.

Another thing you have to take into consideration is that while house prices were going up, wages were going down. We have lost a ton of high-paying engineering jobs, including my own, and many other people have seen large pay cuts or, at best, pay raises that were well below inflation.

Yes, it is cheaper than N. Cal., but I think you are seriously underestimating how expensive the Phoenix area has become in the last few years. I know many of the people at our barn have been affected, and most of us are doing fewer shows.

[Dressage Art]

Yes, it is cheaper than N. Cal., but I think you are seriously underestimating how expensive the Phoenix area has become in the last few years. I know many of the people at our barn have been affected, and most of us are doing fewer shows.
May be. I just still remember when I bought my very first house in Scottsdale, next to Paradise Valley Mall, it was about 1,400 sf and I paid $86K for it. Back then I was 23 years old, so that was a looong time ago. BUT, I was able to earn that money myself for my first house. (working as an artist) Now, I look at my son and wonder how in the world would he be able to buy a N. CA starter home for $400K ???

[Dressage Art]

Originally Posted by Tiligsmom
Enough of the snarkiness regarding SLC... GEEEZ.... anytime she posts, several of you jump on it with personal attacks. I really don't get it.
I don't get it either, and I'm damned sick of it.

I’m also sick of this whole set up. I think its silly - just put her on your "ignore" list and concentrate your time on posters that you like, not on posters that you hate. Life is too short for hate. Move on... Some COTHers do waist lots of time on her, they believe that she is a "bi-polar poser" who writes lies and re-writes experiences of other people as her own, many times contradicting her own self in advice that she gives. Those COTHers are determined "expose" her true self ... for the sake of few naive COTHers who believe her.

I just ask please don't quote her. Otherwise there is no point of having her on ignore list.

[akrogirl]

May be. I just still remember when I bought my very first house in Scottsdale, next to Paradise Valley Mall, it was about 1,400 sf and I paid $86K for it. Back then I was 23 years old, so that was a looong time ago. BUT, I was able to earn that money myself for my first house. (working as an artist) Now, I look at my son and wonder how in the world would he be able to buy a N. CA starter home for $400K ???

Okay, that sounds like you bought around the same time I did :-) My 1,400 sf town house was $87k, lol - the same one that recently sold for $260,000! I bought that myself after my divorce. Today, I would feel lucky if I could find a job paying the same amount I was making then, but there is no way I would be able to buy a house on that income. That is why so many people have been forced to move to new developments on the outskirts of the valley. Unfortunately, the roads out there can't cope with the traffic so the commutes are long and slow, and now these people have been dealt an extra whammy with the rapidly escalating price of gas - lots of foreclosures in those areas :-(

I would definitely be horseless if I were still single, so I am very grateful my husband supports my horsey habit - plus, he has become a great groom ;-) We also managed to get a good deal on a horse property before prices went totally crazy.

[MILOUTE55]

I personally find the current poll results (203 votes) very interesting, and wonder if they reflect the same type of trend in either the 1) overall horse owning population and/or 2) the overall population in general.

is that something you are seriously wondering about? Amazing... I had been riding horses all my life in France, where it is not that crazy expensive to have a lesson in a club. Ever since I moved to the US I started realizing how most horse people are completely "deconnected" with reality...

I'm not criticizing or anything, some people are born with money and it's great for them... but they should at least realize that no, this poll is far from reflecting the overall population in general!

We sell custom saddles so we should be glad that some customers get 3 saddles at over 4,000 each because they cannot decide on the color.... it still surprises me sometimes!... oh well, I guess I'm just jealous ;)... if I had this kind of money I'd probably do the same

Maybe someday... :)

[Ambrey]

Those COTHers are determined "expose" her true self ... for the sake of few naive COTHers who believe her.


It's standard forum fare.

The first forum I ever joined was a parenting forum 10 years ago. There was a huge kerfluffle when a group of people decided one woman who had lost a child had made the whole thing up, teams formed on both sides, etc. etc. In the end it was never resolved or proven. What a waste of human energy ;)

In the end, who cares?

[pintopiaffe]

On the whole, this has been a really educational thread. I very, VERY much appreciate the candid and thoughtful replies.

Yes, I think the results reflect what I thought they would. BUT, I really appreciate the honest discussions about the differences in what exactly that $$$ means.

I didn't post it as a 'who to be jealous' of thread at all. I just have had this *idea* about this board from long before I created a user name and when I was just a lurker. I fully accept that the same salary means different things in different circumstances.

What piqued my interest in the whole thing though, is that I work with people in the homeless shelter system. Sometimes, using horses with them seems so ABSURD to me. Beyond the pale, really. What I pay, out of my four jobs, to keep the horses to use with them... and where that money *could* go instead. SOMETIMES I have a hard time reconciling. I have, at times, felt the purchase of a (low-to-mid-range) saddle was obscene. Just my own little realm of experience.

Yes, I have several horses. They earn their keep. They are either breeding animals or for sale. And every Blessed one of them is a 'lesson' horse in one form or another, from sucklings through the stallion through the broodies. The sales keep me (mostly, until this year) in hay and grain and feet and such. No profit, but they keep me in horses, if that makes sense. There's a fine line, and the terrifying economy has tipped the scales enough that I might just be right OUT of the breeding business. And how do you decide who goes? The 21yo broodie whose given her life's work to support YOU? The 2yo who is better than both sire and dam who were nothing shabby to begin with? The choices are staggering... I'm praying I won't have to make them. But I have just the right numbers to 'pay for themselves' if you *don't* consider some tack, some supplements... some frivolous things... lessons for me... shows. Or, at least I did. Until now.

Quite honestly, and with a piece of humble pie, I didn't include under $20k because I guess I really don't know how anyone can live on that as a single person, not to mention ride and have horses. Perhaps you ride and don't have horses. Perhaps you just post. Perhaps you work part time to DO the horse thing *at all.* No insult was meant at ALL. I know if I only made minimum, I'd have to have two fulltime jobs just for housing and substinence food for one human, so that would put me at or around the $20k mark. (state minimum is $7.50, I'm not sure what federal is, I haven't paid a lot of attention to that.) I absolutely appreciate the students or folks who work part time to pay for The Habit. BTDT, designed a t-shirt, but I *wasn't* paying for my own housing at the time. Car, yeah; gas, yeah, food, yeah, but not housing. Honestly, I don't know how anyone lives on less than $20k and has a roof and food. I know that many people who DO work end up clients of the shelter system, because they CAN'T do both. And yes, thanks to an innovative program, some of them DO ride. So... apology due to Freedom and perhaps others who didn't post but are in the same boat.

I do regret the original post, in some ways, as I thought I might... because no offense is meant. I DO think, for ME at least it's been valuable dialog. I don't believe you should have to mortgage the house or take out a loan to buy a competitive regional level dressage mount. I breed toward that end. What I don't know is if even THAT market is going to be out of the game entirely because of current situations. It would greatly sadden me. Income (or lack thereof) does NOTHING to extinguish the passion that is dressage.

[goeslikestink]

sometimes one doesn't have a job. and sometimes one has a sugar daddy :)
and luck is in your pants ha ha

[goeslikestink]

i personally dont like people to know my income,

but i use it wisely horses are a luxury not a nessity, but ther eare some as such as myslef that love horses for what they are and do try to help them in all walks of life
to be trianed or trian the rider if it helps the horse then good job done

[camohn]

I included our houshold income, not mine alone. I only work part time/take care of the kid and the horses part time.

[camohn]

Everyone has excellent points. And yes, all of it matters.

I just recall DT publishing the demographics of their readers a few years ago, and I was insulted enough I never renewed. I suspect CotH is similar--though the BOARDS may not reflect the subscribers.

I just find it... interesting.. that if you browse a few 'saddle suggestion' threads you get a *feeling* that the majority of posters in this forum consider it 'normal' to pay more than $2500 for a saddle. Perhaps they just really love their saddles more and want to share their positive experience... and I'm not knocking the 'you get what you pay for' theory... *but* it gives the IMPRESSION.... ya know?
while our household income looks great we are the folks with a farm mortgage to pay and that is big! We love living here and think it's a great place to raise kids but it does come with a literal pricetag. There are 3 kids: hubbys 2 from his first marriage (oldest one just got married and had to take out a home equity loan to pay for the wedding), one is still in college and our daughter is 10/will be at home for a while. So... I still can't afford all I would like. I do get good saddles but I can't afford to buy new....EBay has been good to me! I buy used....where I can get a 2500 saddle (I like Passiers and County saddles) for under 1K used. My trainer is understanding that my lessons are on and off depending on what expenses I have here.....sometimes I can come regularly for a good run and somtimes I can't come for quite a while.

[camohn]

I think the point has been well made but location is everything. We are in a "medium" priced area....not in the sticks at an hour and a half from Philly/Harrisburg/Baltimore in any direction but not like prices in DC/NYC/LA. We have a good income and a nice farm. There is still no way we would have been able to afford this place if we had not gotten an inheritance from hubby's side of the family that enabled us to make the inital down payment.DH's daughter is in management for a large company in Richmond, her new hubby is a highschool teacher. They just got married, they have a good combined income and thought they could afford a small basic rancher on a postage stamp sized lot. Boy were they surprised when that still costs 400K in suburban Richmond!! They ended up buying a cute but tiny 2 bedroom condo in a nice neigborhood.....for a price that would get them a really nice house with a big yard here!! They love Richmond and plan to stay for a few years but the new hubby's parents said they have heard talk that they will move up here near us down the road when they are ready to have a family so they can afford a house with a yard.

[FriesianX]

I didn't take any offense at the original post - and would hope most wouldn't either. I think most would read it as just a curiousity about the forum - who are the members? Income does help define who we are and what we can do. Based on responses, it just shows that income isn't a good measurement taken in a "vacuum".

I do think several of us breeders market toward the same people, the middle income adult ammie who wants a NICE horse. Not an Olympic caliber horse, but a kind horse with an easy mind and three good gaits.

And in this economy, it is the middle income (our very buyers) who are cutting back. The lower income can't cut back - what do you eliminate - food, rent, or utilities? But the middle income starts looking at their discretionary costs, lessons, training, saddles, board, new horse, showing, etc. My trainer is really feeling the pinch - people are cutting back on lessons and showing. As a breeder, I'm feeling the pinch, people are slower to buy horses, prices are down (but hay and gas are up, up, and away).

I just spent the day (yesterday) at the Western States Horse Expo, and MANY vendors said they too felt it, and talking to some of the people in equestrian services that I know (you know how it is at these events, you see all the people you haven't talked to for MONTHS), they are all talking about the current slowdown. The only person I talked to who was doing better was a saddle fitter who noted more and more people are just refitting and repairing their older saddles instead of buying new!

Maybe you see a bit of that in the responses too. Many of us are more sensitive about income and discretionary income because, well, much of America feels that way...