help me pick a stallion [Archive]

jacksorbetter

Jun. 1, 2008, 09:01 AM

I'm thinking of breeding my mare next season (maybe this season?) The goal would be to have a nice amateur horse for myself to do a little bit of hunters and/or jumpers with in a few years. I compete at the 3' level, maybe would be interested in doing 3'6" someday... but would be content never surpassing 3'.
My mare has been great for me... we've been sucessful in hunters and jumpers...but the jumper ring is her forte...she is brave and bold, and has a heart the size of Texas. She is by the Holsteiner Carlost, out of a home bred TB Champion Deed. She is 16.1hh, and very long backed...other than that I don't know what else to say about her conformation...i'll post some pics later today. She has an exceptional work ethic, but is rather "hot". She has a foot injury (ddft) which will keep her out of work for quite a while and may prove to be chronic, which is why I'm thinking of breeding her. Right off the bat I think of Cunningham... just because I've always admired him. Any thoughts?

jacksorbetter

Jun. 1, 2008, 09:28 AM

here is a link to one picture... i will get some conformation shots today...

http://www.gallopprints.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=110029

allanglos

Jun. 1, 2008, 09:33 AM

Over 180 champion stallions at half price:

www.SHNpayback.com

There is a link to text only listings at the top of the stallion page for slower connections. The text listing is also alphabetical and broken down by stallion breeds.

jacksorbetter

Jun. 1, 2008, 10:08 AM

here is a video clip of my mare

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCtPpZH2MJ0

RiddleMeThis

Jun. 1, 2008, 10:12 AM

Well I know when I get a breeding quality mare she is going to RedWine, so I am going to suggest RedWine.

holsteinersrock

Jun. 1, 2008, 01:45 PM

B/c she already has Holsteiner blood, IMO it would be wise to breed her to Cunningham, who obviously has fantastic temperament and his famous sire is known for producing excellent rideability.

You could also consider Cassini II (frozen), or a Holsteiner with Contender in there...

...and finally there are very impressive Holsteiner sires apart from Cunningham such as Chaleon, Superman and Cabardino that have successful A circuit hunter careers.

Anna

EquineLVR

Jun. 1, 2008, 01:51 PM

Well if you want to shorten her up some - then I would say Corland, Cascani (another Cassini I son), Van Gogh B, Cabardino or even Chaleon. However all of those will double up the Corde blood.. so if you want to stay away from that you could also try:

Autobahn, Apiro (not sure he would shorten her tho) or Mezcalero

Good Luck with her - she looks like she jump's well.

faluut42

Jun. 1, 2008, 06:27 PM

Well I know when I get a breeding quality mare she is going to RedWine, so I am going to suggest RedWine.

I would steer around Redwine just bc of the fact that he is EVA positive. You can vaccinate, but after talking to my vet about EVA vaccination procedures and it sounds like a B****.

RiddleMeThis

Jun. 1, 2008, 06:42 PM

I would steer around Redwine just bc of the fact that he is EVA positive. You can vaccinate, but after talking to my vet about EVA vaccination procedures and it sounds like a B****.
IMO its worth it. :yes:

jacksorbetter

Jun. 1, 2008, 07:36 PM

http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm258/ferry2424/?action=view&current=DSC00785.jpg

http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm258/ferry2424/?action=view&current=DSC00786.jpg

http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm258/ferry2424/?action=view&current=DSC00787.jpg

Equine Reproduction

Jun. 1, 2008, 07:41 PM

I would steer around Redwine just bc of the fact that he is EVA positive. You can vaccinate, but after talking to my vet about EVA vaccination procedures and it sounds like a B****.

Nope. Its actually quite easy. But, it is sad how many breeders and vets out there don't understand the logistics of it and just how easy it is to manage. There is a very complete article on our website about EAV. Go to: http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtml to read the complete article. And it was written with Dr. Timoney who is pretty much the world renowned expert on EVA.

It's certainly not a reason to steer away from a stallion. One just needs to understand what needs to be done!

Good luck!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

faluut42

Jun. 1, 2008, 08:21 PM

Nope. Its actually quite easy. But, it is sad how many breeders and vets out there don't understand the logistics of it and just how easy it is to manage. There is a very complete article on our website about EAV. Go to: http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/EVA.shtml to read the complete article. And it was written with Dr. Timoney who is pretty much the world renowned expert on EVA.

It's certainly not a reason to steer away from a stallion. One just needs to understand what needs to be done!

Good luck!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

I guess i shouldnt have said its hard to do, more just annoying. the 21 day isolation can be hard if you are showing/transporting the horse, or if like me, does not have a place to isolate a horse for that long (only a large pasture).

Dressage-ryder

Jun. 1, 2008, 08:32 PM

What about Cielo B ( www.risingstarfarm.net) or Pablo? I like both boys a lot. Pablo has proven his production time and time again. Cielo is really making his own place in the arena - he is on my opinion one of the nicest up and coming young boys.
I do like Cabardino quite a bit as well. We just got a really nice colt from Versace B and he already seems to have the " jump" - with him everything in sight must be jumped ;)

Best of luck- Let us know who you pick!

fish

Jun. 1, 2008, 08:33 PM

B/c she already has Holsteiner blood, IMO it would be wise to breed her to Cunningham, who obviously has fantastic temperament and his famous sire is known for producing excellent rideability.

You could also consider Cassini II (frozen), or a Holsteiner with Contender in there...

Anna

Actually, getting some "Contender in there" was one of the biggest draws of Cunningham when I first bred to him 6 years ago: he's out of a 50+bonit Contender mare (Iorella) in addition to being a Cassini I son.

Equine Reproduction

Jun. 1, 2008, 09:40 PM

I guess i shouldnt have said its hard to do, more just annoying. the 21 day isolation can be hard if you are showing/transporting the horse, or if like me, does not have a place to isolate a horse for that long (only a large pasture).

Only criteria necessary is to make sure that the vaccinated mare is not within "nose touching" distance to another horse. I can certainly see certain situations where it would be just about impossible, but for most people, it's more a matter of not understanding the disease and that lack of understanding can create near hysteria for some breeders. We've seen facilities where the staff garbs up in tyvek suits to handle an EVA positive stallion or animals that are being vaccinated for the disease :roll: It really isn't necessary.

But, if you like the stallion, it's certainly worth the effort...especially if he'll cross well with your mare!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

faluut42

Jun. 1, 2008, 09:51 PM

We've seen facilities where the staff garbs up in tyvek suits to handle an EVA positive stallion or animals that are being vaccinated for the disease :roll: It really isn't necessary. [/url]

:lol: why is that so easy to picture!

ShowjumpersUSA

Jun. 1, 2008, 10:07 PM

You didn't mention how tall she is, but a good stallion to add jump and shorten her back would be Contendro (Contender/Reichsgraf/Rasputin), if you don't mind using frozen.

She's a very pretty mare, but I would be careful to not add length to her back.

I haven't used Pablo myself, but from all reports, he would shorten her back without sacrificing jump or movement.

I would choose a stallion with a very good topline who is a bit short coupled.

Equine Reproduction

Jun. 1, 2008, 10:40 PM

:lol: why is that so easy to picture!

<smile>...Yeah, I can see someone dressed in a Tyvek suit heading towards a horse that needs to be handled and watching the eyes get bigger and bigger and bigger... Can't imagine trying to do any semen collection dressed like that!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Silly Mommy

Jun. 1, 2008, 10:46 PM

Can't imagine trying to do any semen collection dressed like that!

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Methinks a collection wouldn't happen, the wedding package would run and hide!!!:lol::lol::lol:

nsm

Jun. 2, 2008, 08:03 AM

You might want to consider Ironman.

Nancy

Oakstable

Jun. 2, 2008, 08:14 AM

OP, how is she papered? Registry of preference?

jacksorbetter

Jun. 2, 2008, 09:44 AM

She is registered with the Performance Horse Registry. I will not have much interest in registering the foal, as I will not be looking to sell, but rather to have an amateur friendly hunter/jumper for myself.

So, from what I've gathered so far from everyone's advice is that I want a stallion who will shorten the back, add a bit more jump, and perhaps mellow the temperment a bit. Should I also be looking to lengthen the leg?

Does Cunningham fit that bill? Or am I better off elsewhere?

fish

Jun. 2, 2008, 10:53 AM

Cunningham has definitely fit that bill here, although I will say that he's probably done more to strengthen the back and improve loin connection than "shorten." My Cunningham babies have the most amazingly muscled backs I've ever sat on.

ShowjumpersUSA

Jun. 2, 2008, 12:11 PM

dbaygirl

Jun. 2, 2008, 02:50 PM

In answer to your question, Cunningham is a lovely stallion but he is a Capitol I grandson. Capitol I was given only the best mares in Holstein because of his rather longish back and the tendancy to throw it. I would have recommended my own stallion who is a direct Capitol I son who throws longer legs, but for the back issue. I wouldn't want to breed in the very thing that has been bred out. That's why I recommended Contendro... he'll shorten the back, but he needs a big framy mare and your mare may not be big enough.

A good rule of thumb I have found is that a warmblood will bring size and power but if you need legs you need to add blood. Therefore, I would be looking for a warmblood stallion who has plenty of blood on the bottom.

Gotta LOVE an honest SO's comment like yours, Showjumper.

If papers don't matter to OP, I have an honest non-licensed stallion owner's comment to make....although you can get CWHBA papers if you were to have your mare inspected, but obviously that is not a concern to you being that you want this baby for yourself and want the best possible outcome for your mare.

Regarding Showjumper's comment: A good rule of thumb I have found is that a warmblood will bring size and power but if you need legs you need to add blood. Therefore, I would be looking for a warmblood stallion who has plenty of blood on the bottom.[/QUOTE]
I just have to say that my stallion would be such a lovely cross for your mare. (By the way, do you have any conformation pics of your mare without the boots on?) He is TB on the bottom with many top class TB sporthorse sires on his dam's liine. His first filly had the longest legs the vet had ever seen at birth. His second filly shortened the back and lengthened the legs on the dam. He has not been bred, promoted or shown much due to financial reasons. He will not breed again until next year. He has a powerful jump and an extreme hind end technique over fences. He would add engine to your mare.

JMHO. I love your mare. :-)

Jan

fish

Jun. 2, 2008, 03:17 PM

Regarding Showjumper's comment: A good rule of thumb I have found is that a warmblood will bring size and power but if you need legs you need to add blood.

I disagree, having found that individuals (and their families) are much more important than WB vs. TB and the like. I bred my long-backed, very substantial and powerful TB mare to a WB (Cunningham) seeking legginess and refinement. It worked like a charm while a previous attempt going the TB route produced a baby even short-legged than her mother.

Regarding the offspring of Capitol I and their descendants, I think there's considerable variability, with the Cassini I and his offspring, for example, being quite leggy and beautifully proportioned over the topline, with Carthago and his babies having more the look of Capitol I himself.

poneez

Jun. 3, 2008, 12:18 PM

I LOVE Cabardino, he's just fantastic. It might be nice to stay with Holsteiner.

Lovely mare!

While both of our "bigger" boys are known for shortening a mare through the back, I would think that our fellow Harvest Moon by Absolut might be most of interest to you out of the two. He passes his strong, balanced top line so consistently. More importantly, we are always getting emails from the owners of his offspring noting they are easy as pie to work with, start under saddle, and take to their first shows - such terrific, ammy-friendly personalities. The bloodline is, of course, very proven for passing on exquisite form over a fence. We're delighted to see such a number of return clients year after year! Should it prove of interest, we have gorgeous new photos that have yet to be posted to the site.

Good luck, there are some top notch recommendations on this thread!

ShowjumpersUSA

Jun. 3, 2008, 01:33 PM

I disagree, having found that individuals (and their families) are much more important than WB vs. TB and the like. I bred my long-backed, very substantial and powerful TB mare to a WB (Cunningham) seeking legginess and refinement. It worked like a charm while a previous attempt going the TB route produced a baby even short-legged than her mother.

Regarding the offspring of Capitol I and their descendants, I think there's considerable variability, with the Cassini I and his offspring, for example, being quite leggy and beautifully proportioned over the topline, with Carthago and his babies having more the look of Capitol I himself.

I was talking about breeding warmbloods. I am not a TB breeder and wouldn't presume to give advice about breeding Thoroughbreds. However, if you start with a warmblood mare who is a big girl but she has short legs and you breed her to a European stallion who has no blood, you will get a bigger mare with short legs. If you breed her to a warmblood stallion with TB on the bottom or a TB stallion, you will get legs.

This particular component in my method of choosing a stallion is the way my mentor taught me and works for me in my Holsteiner breeding program. Of course, this is only about legs. There is much more to consider when choosing a stallion.

While it's true Cassini I has produced some spectacular babies out of spectacular mares, he has produced some not so wonderful offspring out of lesser mares. A stallion can only do so much. For instance, both Berlin and Cumano are out of Holsteiner mares and are both double Caletto II. Cunningham is out of a Contender/Mephisto mare who is loaded with Cottage Son. As they say in Germany, it's all about the mare.

showjumpers66

Jun. 3, 2008, 02:04 PM

The refinement is still coming from your TB mare. At 42% blood, Cunningham is bred to be a modern stallion and thus should produce refinement with TB mares with resulting offspring having 71% blood. I know that you are a HUGE Cunningham fan, but Bonnie is actually spot on with her post. This is nothing against Cunningham (who is a nice horse), but a great discussion on breeding.

I disagree, having found that individuals (and their families) are much more important than WB vs. TB and the like. I bred my long-backed, very substantial and powerful TB mare to a WB (Cunningham) seeking legginess and refinement. It worked like a charm while a previous attempt going the TB route produced a baby even short-legged than her mother.

Regarding the offspring of Capitol I and their descendants, I think there's considerable variability, with the Cassini I and his offspring, for example, being quite leggy and beautifully proportioned over the topline, with Carthago and his babies having more the look of Capitol I himself.

omare

Jun. 3, 2008, 02:28 PM

Is it true that Autobahn throws long legs in his foals? (He surely has legs -real long legs!) Are there warmblood stallions that throw legs and jump? Thanks!

fish

Jun. 3, 2008, 02:40 PM

The refinement is still coming from your TB mare. At 42% blood, Cunningham is bred to be a modern stallion and thus should produce refinement with TB mares with resulting offspring having 71% blood. I know that you are a HUGE Cunningham fan, but Bonnie is actually spot on with her post. This is nothing against Cunningham (who is a nice horse), but a great discussion on breeding.

Cunningham has also produced refinement with Holsteiner and other WB mares while my TB has FAILED to do so bred to other stallions. Indeed, Cunningham's owner has bred him to nothing but Verband mares and he has consistently refined.

I have good reason for being a "HUGE" Cunningham fan, the typiness of his foals being a big part of it.

hessy35

Jun. 3, 2008, 02:59 PM

What about Coromino?? That stallion throws some BEAUTIFUL foals.

showjumpers66

Jun. 3, 2008, 04:00 PM

fish

Jun. 3, 2008, 05:19 PM

Fish, no call to become defensive. Everyone is welcome to their opinion and no one is knocking Cunningham.

omare, yep, Autobahn appears to be stamping his type with his head, neck, and legs especially.

How is it "defensive" to disagree with someone's statement because it does not accord with the facts? I did not have the impression anyone was knocking Cunningham. I thought they were saying something about him based upon one of his grandsires (Capitol I) which does not seem applicable to Cunningham himself based either upon his own phenotype or that of the foals he's put on the ground. Indeed, the mares in the mix have counted for a great deal-- both Cassini I's dam , Wisma (Calletto II) and, Cunningham's own (Iorella/Contender) are very much refining influences who helped make Cunningham the leggy, refined individual he is and throws. Capitol I's influence seems mostly to be in his jump, rideability and color.

showjumpers66

Jun. 3, 2008, 05:35 PM

I like Cunningham. I saw him compete in Thermal. He is a nice stallion, but he does not strike me as leggy or refined. He is a good example of a modern sporthorse with the correct length of leg.

We all (well most of us :winkgrin:) have our own opinion of what is standing in front of us. That is what makes us unique.

http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/cunningham.htm