Raleigh results - FEI Y/H scores

[DownYonder]

Wow, the Y/H classes must have been brutal!

In Friday's 5 y/o class, the scores ranged from 5.6799 to 7.5399. Only one ride earned over 7.5 (Debbie Hill on River Side Lady). In Friday's 6 y/o class, scores ranged from 5.76 to 7.5199. Only the winning ride was over 7.5 (Caroline Roffman on Westpont). These classes were official qualifiers for the National Championships this fall in Kentucky.

In Saturday's 5 y/o class, scores ranged from 6.1599 to 7.8600. Only two rides were over 7.5, with Joe Sandven on Ronatella S earning the top score. In the 6 y/o class, there were only three rides and scores ranged from 7.3200 to 8.100. Chris Hickey on Cabana Boy took top honors in this class. This class was a qualifier for today's Y/H classes, which are part of the official selection trials for the World Championships in Verden.

I heard from a friend who watched the Friday classes that a lot of the 5 y/o's were very tense and nervous. There was apparently some comment among spectators and riders that the atmosphere there is rather intimidating to young horses and quite a few never really relaxed. Hopefully they will be more used to things today and will turn in better rides.

[dresstar]

Yes, it is hard for the young horses. I find it amazing that only one horse has qualified for Verden in the states at this time. That is willy Arts horse, a six year old on the West coast. I think it is the first time since the program has been in place that only on horse has done this. I hope that Cabana Boy can do it. They need at least a 8.2 to make it to Verden. It is not looking like any 5 year old will be going to Verden at all at this point. To bad, There are a lot of nice ones this year!
dresstar

[dressagefriend]

Qualifying for the Selection Trails this year was different than last years requirements. If you did not go to Florida the opportunity to qualify is hard to find. In the Midwest Paxtons was the first opportunity to qualify for the Selection Trials being held at Lamplight. For some people Raleigh is just so far away. Hopefully next year they will let you get your qualifying scores again at the Selection Trials. This is such a great program for our gifted horses here in the U.S.

[tartanfarm]

final class is today and won't be complete until after 2 pm so the Eastern Division will probably have a candidate. Ronnie or Berry (Riverside Lady) are bound to qualify.

[siegi b.]

Any news yet on how today went, who qualified, etc.?

[tartanfarm]

Joe on Ronnie came first in the 5yr old, Debbie on Riverside Lady came second. They tell me that no one , 5 or 6 yr old, qualified for Germany.:no:

[hsheffield]

So neither Cabana Boy or Ronatella (6 & 5 yo winners)
qualified for Verden. Agree with above that horses were
tense on Friday. Some of the 5 yo wanted out of that
arena! Unfortunately the judge ( Lorraine Macdonald)
couldn't tell the difference between a bad ride and a bad
rider. She chose to tell the riders they had done bad
job. For example she told one trainer/judge that her horse
would not move up because of her riding. She asked one
rider who had previously represented the USA in Verden
"have you ever ridden these young horse tests before?"

Entirely different story with Gribbons/Fore/Zang. LZ was
diplomatic in her comments but very honest. The scores
were right on IMHO though it was a shame that no one
qualified for Verden. Indoors might not be the best place
to test YH as many of them backed off and had a hard
time with focus. Verden is outside so there is no advantage
in subjecting these youngsters to an environment that
makes it hard for them to show themselves off.

[ToN Farm]

She chose to tell the riders they had done bad
job. For example she told one trainer/judge that her horse
would not move up because of her riding. She asked one
rider who had previously represented the USA in Verden
"have you ever ridden these young horse tests before?"Wow! I'm all for blunt, but that's ever too much for me.

[Sister Margarita]

With judges making comments such as these over a PA, the USEF is shooting themselves in the foot if they have a desire to develop this program. What trainer wants to go through all it takes to get there then have themselves slammed for doing their best with an excited athletic 5 year old? The tests are hard enough, the arena is hard enough, but a judge telling someone their riding is poor over a public address system because a horse melts down in a very, very stimulating, unique environment shows that the one in need of better judgment is not the rider. If these judges can't use a microphone in a respectful manner, they should pass it to someone who can.

I've done this program, saw its value, but walked the other way when I heard someone else get reemed in a similar way.

I guess nothing was learned in Lexington a couple of years ago. The talk at the next CDI among the riders was how the comments they heard would prevent them from ever participating. How unfortunate.

[Classical DQ]

Were the YH tests in the indoor or the covered arena? Last year they were in the covered. That is scarey enough at Raleigh, but the indoor is very scarey!

[EqTrainer]

I was there today, the 5 & 6 year olds were in the - yes - very scarey indoor. I thought they all handled it well tho', considering they'd been there for a few days.

[dresstar]

Wow, that is to bad. So only one horse from the us can go to Verden. At least she was bred US. As far as the judges they are always saying something bad about the horse or the rider. You just have to let have to let it go. Everyone has a bad ride. Riding horses is not always fun. They are not machines. Any judge that rides knows that. I think some judges just try to make them selfs feel better by saying things.
Well Good luck to Willy Arts! :)

[ise@ssl]

I suppose the appropriate question for the rude judge would be "have YOU ever ridden these young horse tests?".

Great news about Valeska DG - her dam Polimbria is 1/2 sister to one of my mares!

[dq140]

With judges making comments such as these over a PA, the USEF is shooting themselves in the foot if they have a desire to develop this program. What trainer wants to go through all it takes to get there then have themselves slammed for doing their best with an excited athletic 5 year old? The tests are hard enough, the arena is hard enough, but a judge telling someone their riding is poor over a public address system because a horse melts down in a very, very stimulating, unique environment shows that the one in need of better judgment is not the rider. If these judges can't use a microphone in a respectful manner, they should pass it to someone who can.

I've done this program, saw its value, but walked the other way when I heard someone else get reemed in a similar way.

I guess nothing was learned in Lexington a couple of years ago. The talk at the next CDI among the riders was how the comments they heard would prevent them from ever participating. How unfortunate.

I dont' look at it as rude at all. I think/hope/pray it will save the next generation of trainers/riders in America. If it is true that McDonald said above, it's exactly what most competitors here in America need....a good balloon buster to get their training headed in the correct direction. Unfortunately, the powers that be will most likely never invite her back to judge again. Americans cannot stand to hear that their training is incorrect. Holy Cow, they wouldn't be able make as much money teaching clinics at $350 per ride perpetuating their lack of knowledge which in turn gets passed down incorrectly over and over again. Yaaaaaay for McDonald. we need more judges like her!!!

[hsheffield]

I have literally sat through hundreds of YH tests in Europe and have almost never heard the kind of comments I heard from L. MacDonald. There are ways to comment on the rides without being demeaning. Christoph Hess is almost famous for saying 'well, TODAY we did not see....'

I want to make clear however that Linda Zang did a good job of commenting from what I saw. I didn't hear comments on every ride, but what I heard was thoughtful. Scott Hassler and Jennifer Keeler have done a good job growing this program and I believe they will
start to address some of the judging comments in the future. My guess is that they really have no choice if they want the program to continue to attract top trainers.

[hsheffield]

dq140:

My point was that it wasn't bad riding per se that was causing the problems with the horses on Friday. They were young horses many of whom were in an indoor arena by themselves for the first time right after the horse before them had just ridden out...very scary place for a herd animal. That's not to mention that the YH tests are sometimes at the edge of their strength/ability.
To make a general statement that American riders need to get their balloons burst is quite a generalization about a country that has earned the bronze medal at the Olympics since 1996.

[Jade13]

There were weather problems at the West Coast Selection Trials last weekend. Four of the top five 6 year olds were to compete for Verden. Only one qualified, yes Willy and his mare deserve it but others should have been scored close. Mcdonald was not the judge yet there were similar negative coments for both the 5 and 6 year competitions. Almost all the horses were riden by professional riders or coached by top trainers in the county. This program will die if changes are not made.

[DownYonder]

Sunday results have been posted at http://www.cdi-raleigh.com/2008cdcSundayResults.pdf .

Joe Sandven on Ronatella S won the 5 y/o Final with 8.0, and Chris Hickey on Cabana Boy won the 6 y/o Final with 8.1999. Joe's score from the Preliminary on Saturday was 7.86, and Chris' score was 8.1, so neither one qualified for the World Championships in Verden (average score from the two rides had to be 8.2). What a shame - they are two very lovely horses, with wonderful riders.

My 5 y/o was supposed to be in the Friday class, but he was just imported in late March and wasn't quite ready for Raleigh, so we scratched. I am doubly glad we elected to keep him at home after hearing how scary the indoor is at Raleigh, as well as hearing about the brutal comments from the judge.

I'm guessing that they decided to put the Y/H tests in the indoor because they often have a terrific thunderstorm at this show, and they probably didn't want to take a chance on these classes being affected by weather since they were qualifiers for the National Championships and selection trials for Verden. But it's a tall order asking a 5 y/o to show relaxation and brilliance at the same time in a scary indoor arena! And then to be publicly crucified by the judge when it was all you could do to get the horse around the ring - yikes! :eek:

[ise@ssl]

Well it would seem only fair that if they are going to select venues for these final tests they should be comparable with respect to the facilities. If this indoor at Raleigh is a problem and other venues didn't have this to deal with - how can these selection finals be on the same level?

I also agree that direct and clear comments about good or bad riding can be made without being rude or snipey. That only makes the person making the remarks look terrible and also damages the program for Young Horses. It's costly and difficult to even compete horses in this program and the people organizing it have some work to do if we even have any hopes of getting our best young horses through the selection process and on to Europe.

What's that old saying "A cat that sits on a hot stove won't sit on a hot stove again - but he probably won't sit on a cold one either". Let the scores indicate where the problems and weaknesses are and make clear comments on where training is correct or incorrect. Beating riders/trainers up in public may or may not improve their future rides but sure as he** will isn't going to encourage more riders - especially amateurs - to even consider this program.

[YankeeLawyer]

I suppose the appropriate question for the rude judge would be "have YOU ever ridden these young horse tests?".


Actually, good question. Have any of the judges ridden them, in competition?

[YankeeLawyer]

But it's a tall order asking a 5 y/o to show relaxation and brilliance at the same time in a scary indoor arena!

I know that at least some of those youngsters train in an indoor arena at home, though granted those arenas may not be as spooky as Raleigh's.

[Classical DQ]

I hope that something can be done about the harsh comments. I don't understand why it has been so difficult for the judges to give critical comments without being degrading and insulting. Isn't that what our USDF judges progam teaches? It is unfortunate that the reputation of this competition is that the judges are very critical and rip the riders apart. This is not the first year that this has been the comment. Even last year the first day was critical but the second day the judges comments were more constructive. Why should the judges need to be 'spoken' to? Why wouldn't they want to give comments that the riders can use for improvement?

[DownYonder]

Actually, good question. Have any of the judges ridden them, in competition?

I'm guessing the answer to that one is probably NO as most of these judges don't compete any more. I wonder how many of them have even sat on a 5 y/o lately.

Wasn't there a training session for judges this winter in Florida that focused specifically on judging the Y/H classes? It would be really interesting to know how many of the judges at this year's qualifiers / selection trials attended that session, and what they were told regarding how to structure their comments.

[DownYonder]

Well it would seem only fair that if they are going to select venues for these final tests they should be comparable with respect to the facilities. If this indoor at Raleigh is a problem and other venues didn't have this to deal with - how can these selection finals be on the same level?

Good point, but what is the alternative? There is no way to ensure that ALL the qualifying sites offer identical conditions. For instance, the West Coast qualifier was disrupted by heavy rain. If you hold the classes outside, you run the risk of weather problems. If you hold the classes inside, you run the risk of the young horses feeling claustrophobic. There is no easy answer.

[DownYonder]

I know that at least some of those youngsters train in an indoor arena at home, though granted those arenas may not be as spooky as Raleigh's.

Very good point - training in your home indoor, where it is probably fairly quiet and peaceful, is very different from going into a big indoor like Raleigh. Heck, even older, seasoned campaigners are often intimidated by that kind of atmosphere.

[DownYonder]

Qualifying for the Selection Trails this year was different than last years requirements. If you did not go to Florida the opportunity to qualify is hard to find. In the Midwest Paxtons was the first opportunity to qualify for the Selection Trials being held at Lamplight. For some people Raleigh is just so far away. Hopefully next year they will let you get your qualifying scores again at the Selection Trials. This is such a great program for our gifted horses here in the U.S.

Yes, they have made it much harder to qualify this year. For instance, only two of the seven shows in my state this year applied to be official qualifiers for the National Championships, and they were both in April. My guy didn't arrive until late March, so there was no way to qualify him without trailering 6-8 hours away to another state. We are now reevaluating this program to see if it is even feasible to participate in it. It is hugely expensive, with classes costing $35-$40 more than regular classes, and the high cost of fuel makes going out of state a very, very pricey endeavor. It is really pretty discouraging.

[ponyjumper4]

Very good point - training in your home indoor, where it is probably fairly quiet and peaceful, is very different from going into a big indoor like Raleigh. Heck, even older, seasoned campaigners are often intimidated by that kind of atmosphere.

On the same token though, if they can't compete in Raleigh's indoor, which isn't that bad, then maybe they aren't ready to travel to Europe.

[dq140]

On the same token though, if they can't compete in Raleigh's indoor, which isn't that bad, then maybe they aren't ready to travel to Europe.

Well finally, someone has a clue!

[DownYonder]

On the same token though, if they can't compete in Raleigh's indoor, which isn't that bad, then maybe they aren't ready to travel to Europe.

See HSheffield's post #7 -
"Verden is outside so there is no advantage in subjecting these youngsters to an environment that makes it hard for them to show themselves off."

Besides, Verden is still two months away - young horses can mature a lot over the summer.

[Maria]

Thank you ponyjumper, the Raleigh venue isn't any worse than any other venue. The scoring from what I witnessed was pretty spot on.

[dq140]

See HSheffield's post #7 -
"Verden is outside so there is no advantage in subjecting these youngsters to an environment that makes it hard for them to show themselves off."

Besides, Verden is still two months away - young horses can mature a lot over the summer.

What's happened to the part of training that is OBEDIENCE????

[RP]

The judges have to judge on what they see during that test - they cannot "take into consideration" the fact that an indoor might be scary or that a stroller spooked the horse or someone dropped something that made a loud bang, or whatever - none of it matters. There are no "do-overs", so if the horse was tense or spooky, it will get a lower score. Doesn't matter if the judges have ridden a young horse or not - they are judging the performance they see in front of them, not what they think the horse can/should do. The remarks *should* be tactful, but you can't control that either. And I agree with the previous comment regarding Verden - THAT is a tense atmosphere that will spook a horse more than the Raleigh indoor. Its just bad luck that the young horses were tense or didn't like the arena - hope for better luck next time!

[DownYonder]

Thank you ponyjumper, the Raleigh venue isn't any worse than any other venue. The scoring from what I witnessed was pretty spot on.

That isn't my understanding at all, from plenty of people who have shown there. That indoor can be very intimidating to green horses, and doubly so for the ones that aren't used to working in an indoor.

I can't say about the scoring. River Side Lady had an average of 8.32 going into Raleigh, but that was from just one show (Florida Dressage Concours in February, under judges Yukins and Fore), and Ronatella had an average of 8.22, again from just one show (Greater Atlanta Dressage Southern in April, judges Ludwig and Hastings). So either one set of judges were off in their scoring somewhere, or the horses just didn't have as good a go in Raleigh as they did at the other shows.

[DownYonder]

What's happened to the part of training that is OBEDIENCE????

You are right and that is reflected in the score for Submissiveness. A scared youngster that has to be finessed around an intimidating indoor arena is going to get dinged there.

[Maria]

Have you shown at Raleigh Down Under?

I have. And in the indoor.

I was also there this year and watched the young horse classes.

ANY show venue can be intimidating for a young horse.

It's good experience to get these horses out and about. If these are our future World class horses...

[Marydell]

Not having a young horse out there this year, and having done this program with our stallion, Don Principe, I have some thoughts.

Raleigh's indoor is tough, even for older seasoned horses. Verden is outdoors. HOWEVER, there are literally several arenas, grandstands, a racetrack, hundreds of other horses and spectators all around. If you can't deal with a tough situation here, Verden is not going to be any easier to cope with. Especially with the stress of travel and climate changes added to the competition issues.

I DO agree, a good number of the judges I have heard over the years really do not seem to know how to evaluate these classes. They hit a young horse HARD, if he looks around, is tense, or not going forward enough( read throwing front end around) or collected enough( they seem to be looking for a 4th level frame in 6 yr olds!)[at the qualifing shows- not finals]. In the directives for judging these tests, it states that a young horse is to be forgiven "young horse behavior" as long as the horse is obedient and does the movement.
Yet you often hear from judges "since he was not accepting the bit, or was tense, or..in the trot or canter or whatever" they subtract points from that gait and THEN subtract points for the submission score, hitting that horse twice for the same thing. It is my impression that the judge is supposed to be judging ONLY the gait--submission has it's own score. If anyone who is a judge can correct me on this, I am open to learning if this is different.

Judges can be critical, but need to be encouraging as well. I have had the privledge of having our stallion compete as a 6 yr old and now as a Developing Horse. I have been at the Finals several times and, for the most part, the judges there have been more than polite, as well as constructive, about comments ( other than one time two yrs ago). I do however hear several judges (must be an S or better) at qualifiers make inappropriate comments.

One thing always confuses me--How can a horse that does a regular USEF test and scores 8 on gaits, manage to deteriorate to a 5 or 6 in all her/his gaits from the same judge at the same show. Horse performing at about the same quality in both tests.

Just MHO

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
www.sporthorsestallionexpo.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[DownYonder]

The judges have to judge on what they see during that test - they cannot "take into consideration" the fact that an indoor might be scary or that a stroller spooked the horse or someone dropped something that made a loud bang, or whatever - none of it matters. There are no "do-overs", so if the horse was tense or spooky, it will get a lower score. Doesn't matter if the judges have ridden a young horse or not - they are judging the performance they see in front of them, not what they think the horse can/should do. The remarks *should* be tactful, but you can't control that either. And I agree with the previous comment regarding Verden - THAT is a tense atmosphere that will spook a horse more than the Raleigh indoor. Its just bad luck that the young horses were tense or didn't like the arena - hope for better luck next time!

I agree - just saying that it is a shame the indoor was intimidating to some of the youngsters. And yes, Verden is a very electric atmosphere - but add a tense atmosphere to a claustrophobic indoor and it's no wonder the young horses were nervous at Raleigh. Besides, you can't "hope for better luck next time" - there is no next time for those trying to qualify for this year's trip to Verden.

[ise@ssl]

Yes the Judges have to score what they see but the reality of ripping people apart makes no logical sense. When you compete in regular dressage shows - you get your scores and hopefully can look at your test to see comments before you ride again. To subject people to something like a "Rider Idol" situation really requires a rather seasoned rider. So this process seems to say - Amateurs need not apply. Constructiive remarks allow the rider to process what the issues are and take that into the next ride. Snipey rudeness results in raising the emotional level of any person and certainly isn't constructive.

And yes the horses would have 2 months to focus on Verden and yes the venue at Verden is very busy - I've been to that showgrounds - but NO - they riders aren't treated without respect. If a rider is just lousy - I'm sure there are tactful ways to get that across - but honestly that question to the rider about if they've ever ridden ....before certainly shouts to anyone considering this ..........HEY - if you aren't an International competitor - don't show up.

[DownYonder]

So this process seems to say - Amateurs need not apply.

I'm starting to wonder how many professionals will want to apply. What professional trainer want to hear over a PA system - in front of possibly hundreds of spectators - that their riding sucks? Methinks the riders in the Y/H program need a very, very thick skin! :lol:

[RP]

Well, the 5 and 6 yo's have certainly been out showing by this time, so the spooky arena should not have been so much an issue. Perhaps the lesson is to get your 4 yo out to some shows before the FEI YH qualifiers and see how they react. If they are explosive, then no, perhaps they should not be doing these classes. If they are only explosive at Raleigh, then that is the luck of the draw for that day and a real bummer for the horse and rider - all of us have had really bad rides at inopportune times. Really sorry, but that is what happens at shows - there are no second chances for a test. Perhaps we need more FEI YH classes, but that is something to bring up with the organization in charge of the classes, not blame it on the judging. I agree - the judges should be more tactful in their comments, but again, you cannot control what comes out of their mouths. Be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.

I've seen the judging change over the years. During the first two years, the explosive horses were rewarded as showing "promise" for the FEI. I've seen international riders battle with a bucking/rearing horse, barely able to stay in the arena. Then they won the class, with very high scores and praise from the judges. The quiet horses were given lower scores for not showing "potential". Seems the tables have turned and now there is criticism for rewarding obedience. Personally, I think its easier to judge an obedient horse than one that is not.

Again, it would be nice to have tactful comments, but there is no guarantee that that is going to happen.

[hsheffield]

Well said, Marydell.

My impression from the judges' comments on Sat/Sun was that they weren't especially happy with the presentation of the horses though the quality was good in the top ones.

With the venue being difficult it can be especially difficult to present all the horses have to offer in that situation. Here are some of the things I saw that made the venue even tougher:

1. on Friday, there was a group of judge candidates sitting right above the judges at C. Several riders told me that their horses took one look at that crowd of 'mountain lions' sitting up there and really backed off coming down the center line. A couple of the 5 yo just plain stood on their hind legs and said 'NO.' They moved them for Saturday and Sunday but you have to wonder if the horses remembered.

(as a side note, some of the FEI riders were having problems with the crowd behind the judges as well, so it wasn't just the young ones)

2. On Friday, L MacDonald stood up and spoke on the loudspeaker as some horses were entering the arena. Again,imagine a 5 yo seeing someone stand up as they're coming down centerline and a loud booming hiss/crack and then a voice comes from the skies. That's a lot to ask from any horse, but especially a young one.

3. It was hot and the vent/exhaust fans would come on in the middle of the tests. So again imagine, no noise, then a loud whirr comes from above in the middle of a test. Some of the riders said they were surprised by how loud the fans were when you were in the arena as opposed to being in the stands.

so....instead of realizing that the young horses were having a hard time with the venue, LM chose to tell the riders that they didn't know what they were doing. I imagine some of them were doing everything possible just to keep the horses in the ring, much less on the bit! I'm a little disappointed that she couldn't tell the difference.

also agree with above, that the scores on Sat/Sun were pretty right on. They have to judge what's in front of them and they did. They aren't responsible for what happened previously; I just think it's a shame that some of the YH had to recover from such a bad experience on Friday and couldn't show themselves off as well as they might have.

I do wonder with you Marydell why they dinged horses on both gaits and submission when there was a momentary problem with attention/relaxation. Perhaps someone who knows more can comment, it doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[dressagefriend]

It's just hard to believe that we only have one six year old in this Country that will be invited to go to Verden. I have seen a few Six Year Olds that are talented enought to go. Too bad they won't be. It is our loss not to have them there.

[dressagefriend]

Horses that are scoring 7.5-8.5 now can certainly change in a couple of months and improve those scores even more. There are quite a few of these horses on the National Ranking List. I look for the horses to improve and get even better over time.

[YankeeLawyer]

There is simply no excuse for any of the judges to be rude. Sometimes I think these people need to get a grip. It is a sport, and I thought the point of young horse classes was to develop and promote young talent. It seems like they are focused too much on sending a message that to compete in Germany, the horse had better be amazing, and not enough on developing all of the other horses competing in these classes. Most of the horses competing are unlikely to ever be internationally competitive. However, many could do a very nice job here. Given that we have a real need in this country, generally, to improve our young horse training and development opportunities, it would be highly unfortunate if a handful of uptight judges who lack tact managed to discourage people from participating in events like these. Assuming the reports on Raleigh are accurate, frankly, I think the judges' conduct was outrageous.

[DownYonder]

Excellent posts, Marydell and HSheffield. I wasn't at Raleigh, but much of what HSheffield stated had already been reported to me by several friends that WERE there. It definitely sounds like there was a lot that happened that added to the tense atmosphere there.

I will also add that even though it is understood that the Verden environment is very "busy", acoustics are quite different in an indoor versus an outdoor (even one surrounded by grandstands, etc.). It's a lot to ask a young horse to deal with.

Regarding RP's comment that the Y/H's have all been out showing this year - five of the top 10 on the USEF 5 y/o rankings had only done ONE 5 y/o test before Raleigh, including the #1 horse, River Side Lady, and the #3 horse, Ronatella S. In the 6 y/o division, 4 of the top 5 have only done TWO 6 y/o shows, and the rest of the top 10 had only done ONE 6 y/o show. Now, they may have been doing OTHER tests at other shows, but those are not reflected on the rankings list.

Please understand that I am not condemning the Raleigh show site, or the judges (with the exception of the rude ones), or the Y/H program. I am just commenting that the Y/H classes at Raleigh were obviously a tough go for most of the horses and riders, so I am commiserating with them.

[slc2]

Europe would probably be 100 times worse than Raleigh.

If they can't stand it there, they won't be able to stand it in Europe.

[ise@ssl]

I think people should really look at these tests - they are challenging. So I'm sure many horse owners with even FEI potential horses have to ask themselves - why bother? The process keeps changing the venues are not exactly down the road and with rather agressive remarks - it's a whole lot easier to just do recognized Dressage shows and move up the levels. PLUS - I hope people realize that even if a horse qualifies - the cost of getting to Verden for the competition is huge and any help from our NGB is nothing or minimal.

I honestly don't really see this program growing - it's only inching forward now and many people who have put their toe in the water in the past have obviously not returned. And let's be honest those "loudspeaker" comments aren't like the comments on a dressage test - they are out there for all ears to hear whether they are correct or not. More often than not - one bad day with public comments - can stick with a horse forever.

[hsheffield]

slc2:

I have been to Verden many times for the World Young Horse Championships and have had several close friends compete there in the YH Champ.s. I can assure you, Verden is a LOT easier and less electric than Raleigh was this weekend.

[slc2]

WOW.

that's awful. i don't see any point in making an environment that is not like the goal's environment. that doesn't make sense.

[DownYonder]

1. on Friday, there was a group of judge candidates sitting right above the judges at C. Several riders told me that their horses took one look at that crowd of 'mountain lions' sitting up there and really backed off coming down the center line. A couple of the 5 yo just plain stood on their hind legs and said 'NO.' They moved them for Saturday and Sunday but you have to wonder if the horses remembered.

(as a side note, some of the FEI riders were having problems with the crowd behind the judges as well, so it wasn't just the young ones)

2. On Friday, L MacDonald stood up and spoke on the loudspeaker as some horses were entering the arena. Again,imagine a 5 yo seeing someone stand up as they're coming down centerline and a loud booming hiss/crack and then a voice comes from the skies. That's a lot to ask from any horse, but especially a young one.

3. It was hot and the vent/exhaust fans would come on in the middle of the tests. So again imagine, no noise, then a loud whirr comes from above in the middle of a test. Some of the riders said they were surprised by how loud the fans were when you were in the arena as opposed to being in the stands.

so....instead of realizing that the young horses were having a hard time with the venue, LM chose to tell the riders that they didn't know what they were doing. I imagine some of them were doing everything possible just to keep the horses in the ring, much less on the bit! I'm a little disappointed that she couldn't tell the difference.

Actually, the more I hear about the "goings-on" in Raleigh, the more I hope that the competitors find a way to address their concerns to USEF and the Raleigh show management. I am sure that the organizer had very valid reasons for putting those classes in the indoor, but maybe some of this needs to be re-evaluated before next year.

[DownYonder]

I think people should really look at these tests - they are challenging. So I'm sure many horse owners with even FEI potential horses have to ask themselves - why bother? The process keeps changing the venues are not exactly down the road and with rather agressive remarks - it's a whole lot easier to just do recognized Dressage shows and move up the levels. PLUS - I hope people realize that even if a horse qualifies - the cost of getting to Verden for the competition is huge and any help from our NGB is nothing or minimal.

I honestly don't really see this program growing - it's only inching forward now and many people who have put their toe in the water in the past have obviously not returned. And let's be honest those "loudspeaker" comments aren't like the comments on a dressage test - they are out there for all ears to hear whether they are correct or not. More often than not - one bad day with public comments - can stick with a horse forever.


Very good points, Ilona. I have heard several people say that it runs at least $35,000 to ship to Germany, stay for several weeks prior to the WC to train, compete in the WC, and then come home - probably even more these days, with spiraling fuel costs.

And I really do wonder why our NGB sponsors the selection trials for the WC, but then offers no financial help at all for qualifying horses to get to Verden. It needs to put its money (tee-hee, OUR money) where its mouth is!

[hsheffield]

FYI:

the USEF is giving about $10K per combo this year. I wonder since only 1 horse qualified if they're going to give the rest of the money to Willy Arts or save it for next year?

[grayarabpony]

The comments on the riding must have been made on Sat because I didn't hear any remarks like that on Sunday.

I think they are asking too much of the 6 year olds. I also thought that the scores for the 6 year olds were too high.

[RP]

DownYonder: The 5 and 6 yo horses can easily get out to shows, competing in Training thru 2nd or 3rd level tests for one or two years before they go to any 5 or 6 yo FEI YH classes. Horses in that area could have easily shown at Raleigh several times, or gone to a number of shows with an indoor arena, before they went down centerline for their 5 or 6 yo FEI YH class. They should not be showing in the FEI YH classes exclusively with only one competition under their belts before going to the qualifiers - that's just insane. Of course I know that the regular classes don't count towards the FEI YH scores, but they should have had plenty of experience at other show grounds. The 4 yo is probably quite different, with the lack of experience and time to get to other shows.

YankeeLawyer: I actually think that these classes ARE geared towards identifying the horses that would be internationally competitive. Yes, correct training is a component, but the initials FEI are tacked on to the title of the class, hence the international association and goal. Am I wrong? Now, the Developing YH classes are a possible outlet for everyone - or perhaps I have them reversed. Marydell could expound on the Developing Horse classes and maybe that is more enticing to the people who are disillusioned with the FEI YH classes.

As I said before, even horses at GP have off moments where they spook or do something out of character in the show ring, and their scores should reflect that. If you have concerns and harsh comments, take it to the USEF. If you don't think FEI YH classes should be in indoor arenas or if you don't want learner judges sitting behind the judges or if you want complete silence while the horse enters the indoor, maybe you need to start some kind of petition or make a motion to the USEF that these classes are held with specific parameters in place. Perhaps we will see a drop in the number of entries next year because riders are concerned about the judges comments - we'll see.

I guess I don't know what the main problem is - the judges and their comments, the venue where these classes are held, not being amateur friendly, the atmosphere in the arena, all of the above? But if you want anything changed, then you need to the USEF to try to implement those changes. Like I said - I've seen the judging change quite a bit since these classes have started. In the first year or two, the airs above the ground were actually being rewarded, while the correct and obedient horses were not. Perhaps it has done a complete 180, which would be just as bad. So, I reiterate - take your complaints to USEF if you want these things changed.

[Dirigo]

I didn’t see the class on Friday, but I sat through the whole thing on Sunday, and all horses looked really tired. (except the pik horse which in return unfortunately showed tension)

I think the comments of Fore, Zang and Gribbons where pretty much right on the money, and they where very positive and upbeat!!!
I think it’s a big long show, and the first thing in a 5yo horse that goes, is stamina!

That said…. in Germany which is what these riders are aiming to qualify for, the venue is much, MUCH scarier, than Raleigh!!! So these horses have to step up to the plate now, before getting overwhelmed there.

I think we have to be realistic, in picking horses for Verden…. I mean it’s the WORLD young horse championships. We don’t need to send horses there every year, who can barely qualify with an 8.0, just to get creamed in Europe.

I liked a lot of horses that I saw in Raleigh, especially Joe’s Rotspon mare. Chris has done a phenomenal job in training Cabana Boy, and Theresa Boutta has done an absolutely bang up job training Froehlich this past year, and I see all those horses potential super Grand Prix horses in the making…
It's too bad they didn't make it, but I believe they will all do really well in Kentucky!

[Tiki]

One of the big problems I see here is the inconsistency of scoring among the judges. Doesn't matter if the judges have ridden a young horse or not - they are judging the performance they see in front of them, not what they think the horse can/should do.The very first training course for judging the Young Horse Test was put on in Florida in March (I think) at Mike Poulin's. Very few of our judges have ever been trained in how to judge these classes. Any 'O' judge is exempt from training. None of the others have had training. This is a shame!!!!! The standards of judging are quite different from any USEF or FEI test. There are only 5 scores given. It is wrong to double penalize horses for submission AND gaits for the same 'mistake'. There are some good judges and some horrible judges. A couple of good ones are Hilda Gurney, Ann Gribbons, Linda Zang, Gary Rockwell, Bill Sonyntjes (sp?), General Jack Burton, J. Ashton Moore, Lilo Fore, and a few others I can't think of now. LM is not on my list.

[DownYonder]

RP - Of course 5 and 6 y/o’s should have been out showing at other venues earlier in the year – that goes without saying! But were they showing in scary indoor arenas with bleachers, a group of “mountain lion” learner judges hovering above the judges (what an image!), a loud speaker hissing and crackling, vent fans turning on and off, lots of spectators, etc.?

And yes, upper level horses also sometimes spook or are tense. However – the Y/H tests only have FIVE scores, so there is no margin for error. If a horse spooks during the trot work and consequently gets dinged by the judge for Submissiveness, that is 20% of the final score. If the judge also dings the horse on the Trot score because he spooked, that affects another 20% of the final score. That is hardly fair to talented young horses that don’t have a lot of show mileage. The horses should not be penalized in the marks for GAITS for making a common young horse mistake. Now, if the horse is SO tense and explosive that it never relaxes at all, never comes through or shows any swing at any gaits, then of course that should be reflected in the marks. I wasn't at Raleigh, so I can't say what happened, but from the comments here from people that WERE there, it sounds as though the judging for Friday's test was quite a bit different from the judging for the Sat/Sun tests.

I also think it is it interesting that we have one group that categorically states that Verden is a much tougher venue for young horses, and another group that just as emphatically states that Raleigh is a tougher venue. I find the opposing viewpoints to be rather fascinating.

And RP – I agree that those with concerns should address them directly to USEF and/or the show organizer. I said as much in an earlier post. I certainly plan to mention my concerns to Scott Hassler.

Tiki - I guess my post crossed in cyberspace with yours. Very good points!

[Capriole]

However – the Y/H tests only have FIVE scores, so there is no margin for error. If a horse spooks during the trot work and consequently gets dinged by the judge for Submissiveness, that is 20% of the final score. If the judge also dings the horse on the Trot score because he spooked, that affects another 20% of the final score.
I thought one of the ideas behind these tests was that they DON'T punish little spooks like that, or minor inaccurarcy in the test riding, etc. The focus is the quality of the gaits and the basic training.

There were posts here very similiar to this made after Raleigh last year (re judges' comments). JJ Tate qualified at Raleigh last year and then went to Verden, where she described her horse as "starstruck" by the venue.

Now, the Developing YH classes are a possible outlet for everyone - or perhaps I have them reversed. Marydell could expound on the Developing Horse classes and maybe that is more enticing to the people who are disillusioned with the FEI YH classes.
The Developing Horse program is a PSG-level class for 7-9 year olds.

So this process seems to say - Amateurs need not apply.
I think this has always been the case, and there is no pretense otherwise. These classes are for the super talented horses ridden extremely well -- not just classes to be entered by horses of a certain age.

[Maria]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;3258608]RP - Of course 5 and 6 y/o’s should have been out showing at other venues earlier in the year – that goes without saying! But were they showing in scary indoor arenas with bleachers, a group of “mountain lion” learner judges hovering above the judges (what an image!), a loud speaker hissing and crackling, vent fans turning on and off, lots of spectators, etc.?



I have to address this, the "mountain lions" were so far above the actual judges stand that if the horses even noticed them, they would have had to have had their noses stuck almost straight up in the air. These mountain lions were sitting very quietly taking notes and listening to their mentor. And loud speaker hissing and crackling, ummmmmm NO, when announcements were not being made there is classical music being played. Vent fans, I can't speak to that. But would imagine that yes that happened, it was hot. Spectators, well yes we hope to have those. But no more or less than other shows. And I guess there are not supposed to be seats for those spectators either?

The truth of the matter is that there were some horses in these classes that should not have been there.

[DownYonder]

I thought one of the ideas behind these tests was that they DON'T punish little spooks like that, or minor inaccurarcy in the test riding, etc. The focus is the quality of the gaits and the basic training.

That was my understanding, also.

There were posts here very similiar to this made after Raleigh last year (re judges' comments). JJ Tate qualified at Raleigh last year and then went to Verden, where she described her horse as "starstruck" by the venue.

Someone stated earlier that last year's Y/H classes at Raleigh were held in the covered arena - not the indoor. That can make a big difference to a young horse. I haven't been to Raleigh, but my understanding is that it has tiered spectator seating. Is that correct? That can be very, very intimidating to a horse seeing it for the first time. And, as a I mentioned earlier, the acoustics are quite different in an enclosed venue. Sounds get amplified and they bounce around, which can cause confusion to a horse - esp. a youngster without a lot of show mileage.

[DownYonder]

I have to address this, the "mountain lions" were so far above the actual judges stand that if the horses even noticed them, they would have had to have had their noses stuck almost straight up in the air. These mountain lions were sitting very quietly taking notes and listening to their mentor. And loud speaker hissing and crackling, ummmmmm NO, when announcements were not being made there is classical music being played. Vent fans, I can't speak to that. But would imagine that yes that happened, it was hot. Spectators, well yes we hope to have those. But no more or less than other shows. And I guess there are not supposed to be seats for those spectators either?

The truth of the matter is that there were some horses in these classes that should not have been there.

I have no doubt that there were some horses there that probably should not have been. But I find it very interesting that we have two completely opposing viewpoints from people who WERE THERE. Some think the venue was intimidating, while others think everything about the venue was hunkey-dorey and the horses had no excuse for being nervous or tense. I guess it comes down to how much empathy one has for those trying to show young horses in this very challenging program. I am certainly rethinking my desire to show my young guy in the Y/H classes. He has a pretty good brain for a 5 y/o, but I imagine that he would have been pretty anxious about the Raleigh venue, too, being as he has never seen a big indoor with spectator seating all around.

[Marydell]

I was at Raleigh all last year and was there this past Saturday.

I think there were some horses this year that simply are not ready for the YH or were not prepared well enough for this venue.
That said: Both the indoor and the covered at Raleigh are tough, but Verden is as well in a different way. Acoustics aside, ( as there was little to no speakers during the rides last year and this Sat), the seating at Raleigh is the "bear". It starts higher than the horse's heads and they hear the spectators walking behind the grandstands but can't see them. Chris-- it is very similar to the covered at GIHP when horses see movement behind the seats but can't identify what it is. The indoor arenas at Lexington,VA and Murfreesboro, TN are much better- seating starts lower and the horses can see the spectators at eye level. Not so much spooking at these venues.
The covered at Raleigh is doubly "sight restricted" as there are bushes alongside that spectators and horses on the way to the indoor go by and can be heard but not seen. The judges forum sits at the diagonal corners, both last year and this, on metal granstand seating- very noisy. On the other side is an entrance and maintanence road close by. At "A" a horse can see the warmup- 50 feet away. I beleive- but am not sure- that this is why the indoor was used this year for the YH.

This venue is a very good one, with some minor flaws.

Management at Raleigh does a super job, all things considered.

As for the Developing Horse, this is a PSG competition very similar to the Burkopal (sp)Cup in Germany. It bears no resemblance to the FEI YH classes. Last year, to qualify, you rode a PSG at selected shows. This year, there is a "modified" and somewhat easier, PSG that is being used for qualifying. No audible comments are given- it is judged as a normal PSG is. You pick up your score sheet at the office -No consideration is given to the fact that the horses are young, 7 to 9 yrs old. The class must be judged by two "S" or better judges sitting at C and B or E seperately. This program simply identifies those combinations with the desire to compete at a national and international level.

I only have issues with how the judges are awarding/or penalizing the YH both in the gait score and submission scores. I also feel there is no need to be cruel but rather constructive in critiquing the rides. There are a lot of good YH judges out there. It is a shame that some just don't "get it".

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
www.sporthorsestallionexpo.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

[Capriole]

Someone stated earlier that last year's Y/H classes at Raleigh were held in the covered arena - not the indoor. That can make a big difference to a young horse.
At least some of the YH classes last year were in the indoor (the ones I watched). I can't say if all of them were or not.

[Tiki]

I still think it's hard to "get it" when there has been no attempt to train the judges. The 'O' judges are exempt, but Linda Zang had training, in Europe I believe, before she got her 'O' and I think it was Gary Rockwell who attended the judges clinic at Poulin's voluntarily. I don't know how many judges went through that program. They ALL need to. No horse should be double penalized (unless the gaits are awful on their own) or dinged for minor spooks - if they recover quickly. I've seen both happen too many times. Even without training, it seems some have never even looked at the directives from the way they score and the comments they make.

[ise@ssl]

I don't really believe the USEF will listen to any comments - I realize that's a sweeping generalization but it's TRUE. And $10,000 is peanuts compared to not only the cost of getting a horse back and forth and staying there - these people also have lost income when they go.

Would it be great to see some of our horses go and compete well or even be in the top placings - absolutely but we don't have the support here to make it happen. Look how few people even understand the process or the tests. The horses have to travel so far to the qualifiers or winter in FL (mucho bucks). Compare that to the process in Europe - travel is minimal AND - ....BIG AND...they have plenty of judges who are involved with young horses who know how to score these tests.

Also - if someone has seen tracking on the Young Horse champions and future competition success - I'd love to see it.

[YankeeLawyer]

Also - if someone has seen tracking on the Young Horse champions and future competition success - I'd love to see it.

Part of my point was that I do not think the YH classes should only be about picking which horse will be the most likely to do well at Verden. I think that is one component of it, but surely this entire program must be intended to accomplish more than that.

[mickeydoodle]

I have scribed for the judge who made the difficult comments, it made me want to slit my wrists and give up all riding.

[Dirigo]

last year was set up like this.....
the qualification on friday, and the preliminary testing was in the covered arena, and the final on sunday was in the indor arena.
I think it was the same there this year.(don't know about saturday)

I rode in the 5yo's last year, and have to say, that I find the arena pretty "user friendly".
they let you ride there at all times on Thursday, and most horses are ok there.
Verden is more difficult, because of the MASSES of crowd, the cheering, and the noise factor.
I suppose horses that have a problem with "things above them" would like Raleigh less... but horses who are noise sensitive, can be assured to be "star struck" in Verden.

[slc2]

yep i was thinking the crowd factor at verden was alot.

[DownYonder]

Maryanna (Marydell) - thanks for the description of the Raleigh venue. I can certainly understand why it is a bit frightening for a young horse. And the more I hear, the more glad I become that I kept my young guy home instead of sending him to that pressure cooker environment. As much fun as it would be to try the Y/H tests, it is far more important that his first shows be a positive experience for him.

Yankee Lawyer - I agree, the program should be about much more than picking horses to go to Verden. The theory behind the program is to identify talented young FEI prospects, but the real impetus behind it is to give our upper level trainers a high visibility program involving young horses so they will want to ride youngsters and will begin to search out talented young horses. There are a lot of horses that can do okay in this program, even if they don't quite have what it takes to be successful in Verden.

HSheffield - I hadn't heard that USEF was actually going to cough up some money this year to help with travel expenses to Verden. I know that last year, they put all funds toward the Pan-Am Games and had nothing budgeted for the WC - I assumed things would be the same in this Olympic year. That is GREAT that they are helping with travel expenses! I know that The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society (GOV) also provides some funds for its horses that qualify for either the WC, or the NC. I wonder if other registries also provide any financial assistance.

Mickeydoodle - you just confirmed what others have been suggesting. It makes me wonder why this person was chosen to judge a Y/H class at an important qualifying show like Raleigh.

Tiki - I am very disheartened to learn that the Y/H judges don't have to go through any kind of training program to learn how to judge these classes. Many judges are very, very loathe to give 8's or 9's in regular dressage tests, and I imagine that kind of philosophy would very easily carry over into their Y/H judging. Unfortunately, many of the top horses in this program are easily capable of at least 8's - assuming they don't get dinged for minor mistakes, or double-dinged for the same mistake. Training of judges needs to be better - I would like to see a MANDATORY training requirement for those that are chosen to judge the important qualifiers and national championships.

[rothmpp]

I've scribed for several classes of the YH tests, including Devon (if I remember correctly, actually for MacDonald in 2006), and I can say, those that I have scribed for have understood the purpose of the test, and have scored accordingly. In fact the judges, when determining scores, often discuss whether this is a horse that they would want to sent to Verden, in the realm of talent, not in the realm of whose horse it is.

I also have scribed for MacDonald on more than one occasion. Yes, she's tough. 'I' judges from Canada are notoriously tough. I've never seen her rude, though I was not at Raleigh. We are taking one person's interpretation of what she said and running her out of town on a rail.

You've gotta ask yourselves, is the indignation about the scores the fact that the US is only going to send one horse to Verden? I would rather that we only send one horse if the others would just "go to go". It's not like in the past the four horses that the US sent were winning all the classes consistantly every year. Nothing perpetuates the notion that the US breeding and training falls behind Europe like sending horses that are in the middle or bottom at Verden - a breeder's federation championship.

The changes to the program this year have made it harder to qualify, as others have said. I don't know if they were trying to eliminate judge shopping by making specific qualifying shows, but that severely limits the options for a lot of horses and riders, and probably made some riders/owners decide to not participate in the program this year. With the limited opportunities for qualifying, it is much harder this year for people in the northern climates that do not go to Florida for the winter. Having a 5YO ready for a qualifier by June 1st can be asking a lot. It will be interesting to see what happens with the score averages for Kentucky. I would be tempted to wait until June or July, get better scores, and not mess around with trying to qualify for Verden, seeing how cost prohibitive it is. I do wish that more shows had stepped up to the plate for July and August and applied to be qualifiers.

[JennNC]

I was disappointed that Cabana Boy didn't get the score he needed because I am a big fan of his. However, he had two late flying lead changes and the judge said his walk became lateral during the walk pirouettes (I think). I didn't see the lateral walk, but I saw the late changes and my heart sank.

As for the younger, less experienced horses, the judges clearly explained to the audience at one point that they understand that these young horses are in a difficult environment and they allow them to have a few moments of youthfulness, etc. However, if the tension affected the way the horse was actually moving, it was reflected in the score. This was sad, but I'm sure even the riders had to know that their tense horses weren't performing as well as they normally would.

As for the overhead fans....it was HOT and people were requesting that something be done about it. Blame me...I asked the manager if we could do something to move some air in there!

As for the judges being too tough, I stood in the arena with several of them each day as we waited for the awards ceremonies, and I heard their comments about the various horses and riders. Some of them ARE rather tough minded if they feel like the riders aren't up to par, but all-in-all I have to say that I got the impression that the judges WANT to see the horses do well.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure that the classes were run in the indoor last year in much the same manner as this year.

Jennifer Mitchell
President, NCDCTA

[chaos theory]

This thread is really making me laugh my ass off!

It is amazing that in this indoor at Raleigh in a given year their are literally thousands of horses ranging from weanling right on up who manage to show in this environment and not have a complete meltdown.

My horses first show at Raleigh was also his first time in an indoor. He was 6 doing the First Year Greens at 3'6". It was the end of June, the vent fans were on, there were tons of people in the stands (was the big NCHJA show), kids running around, people dropping metal chairs (yes, did happen in the middle of one of his rounds) all the while the announcer was telling who sponsered the class on the loudspeaker, calling the next 3 horses in line and announcing my horses number. He did 3 wonderful rounds never missing a beat even through all the noise and distractions.

So how do tons of other horses of the same age or younger deal with the aptmosphere at Raleigh but it is unacceptable for your 5 and 6 year olds?

**I was there on Saturday and did notice that the indoor was very quiet. There was hardly anyone there and they were playing classical music softly.

[EqTrainer]

Having taken many young horses into that indoor, I will say that some of them really find it scary. There is a wall that goes straight up, then a tarped seating area (can be made even more fun if a small child is kicking it or dashing about!) and then bleacher seats. The vendors are *behind* that area. If your horse happens to be one that is claustrophobic or worries it can be quite hair-raising!

[Tiki]

I have no problem with the venue. Horses need to get used to things. Oftentimes DQ's seem to think they should be riding in a library environment. Get over it.

What I do have a problem with is some of the inconsistent judging. Sure, if the atmosphere affects a horse to the point where it is not showing its gaits, ding it on gaits and submission. The problem comes when the gaits are absolutely beautiful, but something goes off somewhere - a whip cracking, a vendor's popcorn machine turning on, the fans coming on, a kid kicking a tarp in the stands - and the horse has a "huh!" moment but quickly recovers. I've seen a small handful of judges ding the gaits as well as the submission when that happens and that's not what the directives say. If there is consistant unsteadiness - even in a quiet environment - and the judge dings the gaits, well, that's as it should be. But a momentary lapse?

I also agree that there are horses at the qualifiers that probably made it there by the skin of their teeth. Should they not be allowed to compete? Why not? They could have a complete about face and suddenly 'get it' the week before the qualifier and turn into a star.

These tests are NOT for 4, 5 and 6 year old horses just because they are 4, 5 or 6. These tests are to showcase young horses that have the potential to do upper level work very well, and to showcase young horses (hopefully) bred in the USA to get some of OUR horses out in the public eye and make them attractive to trainers and buyers.

The progression with these tests vs the USEF levels is: Materiale Classes, 4yo Young Horse, 5yo Young Horse, 6yo Young Horse, Developing Horse Classes and FEI. The better horses in these classes use the USEF classes for experience and exposure on their way to the top.

[DownYonder]

Chaos Theory - There is quite a difference between a horse doing courses in the hunter ring and a horse going around a dressage ring. The jumps in a hunter ring give a horse something to focus on, and they also tend to encourage a horse to be forward, which is exactly why I started my young mare in hunters before switching her to dressage. A young horse in a dressage ring has more opportunity to look around – and if they are already tense, they are going to try to find something to spook at.

Also, I believe that most of the concern is over the Friday class. I heard from several people that some horses didn’t arrive for the show until Thursday and they may not have had time to acclimate to the show environment before being asked to go in the indoor on Friday AM. Also, Friday was the day there was a group of learner judges in the stands above the class judges. Someone said the learner judges were pretty high up, but I imagine they would have nonetheless been a distraction for most green horses. Friday was also the day that had the judge making what some feel are “inappropriate” comments about the horses and riders.

I am really glad I started this thread and I want to thank everyone for their comments. I have learned a lot more about the Y/H program in general, and the Raleigh venue in particular. I was a bit on the fence about the Y/H program when it began because I felt that it would encourage too many people to rush young horses too much, but the program is apparently here to stay and I now believe that it is a good program for identifying talented youngsters.

I do think, though, there is way too much emphasis on selecting horses to go to Verden. That should be only one aspect of this program, but it appears that many show organizers didn’t understand that even though the selection trials for Verden would be finished by early June, they could still hold qualifying classes for the national championships at their shows throughout the summer. A lot of show organizers didn’t bother to apply to be qualifiers for the NC, so – as others have said – if you weren’t able to get your Y/H out early in the year to Florida or the SoCal shows, you were pretty much SOL regarding Nationals. I would also like to see some sort of mandatory training requirements for the judges – esp. at the shows designated as official qualifiers for either NC or WC. I hope that this program can be tweaked for next year to make the qualifying process more realistic.

[chaos theory]

Having taken many young horses into that indoor, I will say that some of them really find it scary. There is a wall that goes straight up, then a tarped seating area (can be made even more fun if a small child is kicking it or dashing about!) and then bleacher seats. The vendors are *behind* that area. If your horse happens to be one that is claustrophobic or worries it can be quite hair-raising!

They did thankfully change the tarps. They are now painted pieces of wood...they still make an "interesting" sound if a kid kicks it but doesn't scare the pee out of them like the tarps used to. :D

I do agree that it is a hard venue but I also don't think that things should be perfect for young horses all the time...otherwise how do they learn? If the competitors knew that the big show was going to be at Raleigh then they should have done anything possible to make sure that their young horses were prepared for a stressful indoor environment. It sucks yes, but sometimes that is horse showing.

[grayarabpony]

There is a lot of whining going on about the venue. Are you sure you were there Chaos Theory, most of what they were playing was Musak Madonna -- "Like a Virgin", "Material Girl", "Poppa Don't Preach" :dead: What Einstein picked THAT music? In fact, why were they playing music at all, except during the musical freestyles.

I think the whole Young Horse program is kind of a dumb idea, pressuring some breeders to try to push young horses into doing things they're not ready for.

[Maria]

There is a lot of whining going on about the venue. Are you sure you were there Chaos Theory, most of what they were playing was Musak Madonna -- "Like a Virgin", "Material Girl", "Poppa Don't Preach" :dead: What Einstein picked THAT music? In fact, why were they playing music at all, except during the musical freestyles.

.


SNORT

Well yes I do think Areosmith would have been much better.

[ise@ssl]

I also believe we need to take a good hard look at the training programs for the Young Horse competitions. Why don't we bring more people over from Europe who have a proven track record or training/prepping young horses for these competitions? Trainers with a list of horses they have actually trained and sent to the Young Horse Championships and have them provide information on their methodology.

It would be even better if it could be run for a week - (or even more) similar to a Dressage camp. Where the rider/horse can have the benefit of intense training and critique and solid recommendations from people who specialize in this work in Europe. It would probably be a real boot camp but I'm sure those who can "tough up" to it will end up benefiting and so will the horses.

The current system just doesn't seem to be working.

[EqTrainer]

I do agree that it is a hard venue but I also don't think that things should be perfect for young horses all the time...otherwise how do they learn? If the competitors knew that the big show was going to be at Raleigh then they should have done anything possible to make sure that their young horses were prepared for a stressful indoor environment. It sucks yes, but sometimes that is horse showing.

Oh, I agree. I am all about hauling my young horses around and just letting them *be*, in all sorts of places. That includes the indoor in Raleigh as much as possible.

I was commenting that it is a tough indoor. Compared to Williamston, for example, which is so horse friendly. There is something particularly unnerving about the Raleigh indoor; I have seen seasoned campaigners refuse to go in that arena. And yet the 4H kids horses do just fine :lol::lol::lol: There may be a lesson in that fact :lol:

[TMPF]

I personally love the venue at Raleigh with the exception of the red clay in the stabling. This is a well run show and I will return even though my horse will age out of the YH classes next year. I did not hear the comments from the fridays classes but both Saturday and Sunday Linda took over the Mic and tended to get a little too long in her comments.

I was thrilled with my horse's performace and happy with the results. I know that there was lots of talk about the low scoring, but I didn't hear anything bad about the venue.

[DownYonder]

I also believe we need to take a good hard look at the training programs for the Young Horse competitions. Why don't we bring more people over from Europe who have a proven track record or training/prepping young horses for these competitions? Trainers with a list of horses they have actually trained and sent to the Young Horse Championships and have them provide information on their methodology.

It would be even better if it could be run for a week - (or even more) similar to a Dressage camp. Where the rider/horse can have the benefit of intense training and critique and solid recommendations from people who specialize in this work in Europe. It would probably be a real boot camp but I'm sure those who can "tough up" to it will end up benefiting and so will the horses.

The current system just doesn't seem to be working.

Oldenburg (GOV) has been sponsoring Y/H training clinics for years now (actually started them before the USEF program). They usually bring over Johannes Westerdarp and/or Katrin Burger - both of whom have very good track records with young horses and have won at the Bundeschampionat. Most of the clinics so far have been in either California or North Carolina, but this year's clinic is in Alberta with Sarah Schröer, who studied for her Bereiter degree under Susanne Miesner (head of the FN's young horse program).

[Schiffon]

[QUOTE=Tiki;3258492]One of the big problems I see here is the inconsistency of scoring among the judges. The very first training course for judging the Young Horse Test was put on in Florida in March (I think) at Mike Poulin's. Very few of our judges have ever been trained in how to judge these classes. Any 'O' judge is exempt from training. None of the others have had training. This is a shame!!!!! The standards of judging are quite different from any USEF or FEI test. ...QUOTE]

This is so true, or at least it was in the recent past. I'm an L grad and went to a 'USDF University' program at Raleigh 2 years ago supposedly on judging young horse tests. The faculty/judge kept going on about whether a certain horse met the basic various qualities of the training scale (which is fine, but not unique to YH tests) and pointing out inaccuracies in the test riding (which, based on the YH tests I've seen in Europe, is not that important unless it is due to resistances). I tried to get out of her a scoring methodology, for example, how does one decide if a trot of 8.0 or an 8.2 or an 8.5, since decimal points are not what we use in regular tests, but this person (S judge) could not verbalize one at all. That is a problem. Does one keep a running tally of 10 trot movements and average them? Any one know?If a US judge has no unique method for YH test and is going on a baseline of never giving 9's and rarely 8's in a regular dressage test and continues to give mostly 7's even when a trot is good or very good, then I don't think the judging is the same as in Europe. That said, I have never seen a young horse here that is on par with the top 5 at the WCYH with the simultaneous expression, power, and relaxation.

Based on what I've seen in Germany, I don't think many people ride young horses (ie 3 and 4 year olds) forward enough here and maybe that translates to difficulty at producing brilliance at 5 and 6 years of age without getting tension.

[ElizaS]

I rode in the 4 year old test on Sunday. It was held in the covered arena, and Lilo Fore did the commentary. I think she was right on with her comments and scores. It was my guy's first show ever, so he was a little spooky and wiggly, but I find Raleigh to be a pretty nice place in general. Not nearly as spooky as some other venues, and always so well run.

[Dorienna]

[QUOTE=Tiki;3260622]I have no problem with the venue. Horses need to get used to things. Oftentimes DQ's seem to think they should be riding in a library environment. Get over it.


These tests are NOT for 4, 5 and 6 year old horses just because they are 4, 5 or 6. QUOTE]

I agree 100% with this. Too many times I have seen people attempt these classes because their horse is that age and can ''do'' the test. And then getting creamed in the commentary... I don't think I'll ever be brave enough to deal with that!:eek:

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't have a problem with the notion of spooky venues. If the footing were dangerous, for example, that would be a different story. I do have a major problem with people being discourteous and unprofessional, which, imo, some of the comments were (assuming, of course, the description of those who attended was accurate).

I also have trouble believing that of all of the horses that competed this year throughout the USA, they could not identify TWO that were worthy of competing in Verden. I have no idea how we are ever going to improve and be competitive at that competition if we don't allow our riders and young horses an opportunity to participate over there. And without meaningful, constructive criticism from the judges, I question how much of a learning experience the qualifying competitions provide.

In any event, it seems to me that someone needs to clarify the goals of the program and the judging criteria, and make sure that the judges are on the same page.

[siegi b.]

In my opinion there is a big difference in the way these FEI Young Horse classes are scored here vs. Germany. I think we get too wrapped up over submissiveness to a point where we're looking for overly quiet youngsters and that will then affect their performance in the gaits. The occasional spook should not affect the final score to such an extent that the very talented horse can't make the qualifying marks.

[canticle]

Why should a quiet, well-behaved youngster not have correct gaits?

[YankeeLawyer]

I wouldn't exactly describe the top finishers at Verden as quiet. Generally, the "overly quiet" ones lack the kind of remarkable brilliance in their gaits that is rewarded at that competition.

That said, at *GP* level, I do think there is room for the really precise, consistent ones that are good, but not necessarily spectacular (in the true sense of the word) movers. I am referring to horses like Brentina. IMO, she is a good mover, but she excels not because of flash but because of her precision and consistency.

[hsheffield]

siegi:

agree that we get too wrapped up in submissiveness here compared to Germany. Perhas it's left over from the hunter stuff? just a guess. I think Axel Steiner seems expecially attached to this based on how I've seen him judge.

though if the horses are tense it's hard for them to come through and show off their natural gaits which IS the point so like most things its a balance.

[ise@ssl]

JMHO - but I feel there is a big difference between a horse that is tense from bad riding and a horse that occasionally gets "show" tense from the venue or outside stimulus. A tremendous number of horses who went on to be even Olympic competitors had issues of spooky or tense behavior when they were young but with time, correct riding and more exposure to showing - it went away. With the Young Horse championships if the horse is tense from outside stimulus and the rider just keeps going and pushes through it - I don't feel there should be ANY mark down. It happens - it's normal. If the horse is tense or incorrect in it's body because of bad riding - that should be noted. If a horse is just NOT submissive to the aids and the riding is correct - big mark down.

But all of this takes a judge with a keen eye, EXPERIENCE with young horses (BTW - they are all different even at the same age) and TACT when it comes to communicating to the RIDER what the scores reflected.

[kkj]

A lot of the horses that make it to the big ring were too electric, hot and spooky to do well in these tests in the US when they were 4, 5 and 6 year olds. In Europe you do see them forgive this exuberance or show nerves more. Let's remember the test of Sir Donnerhall as an example. He was not perfectly submissive that is for sure. Also when you do get to the big ring that extra edge is a good thing. I think in a few years few of the horses that are winning at Grand Prix will be the ones that won the FEI young horse tests. Not all good horses or horses that will shine brightly later enter or do well in those classes. And I do think a lot of people in the US enter those classes just because they have a horse that is the right age and not because the horse is actually ready for the test.

I am glad Willy and Valeska made the cut. I do love that horse and think she has what it takes to be a big player in the future. Anyone know if he is going? I think they should have somehow fudged it so Cabana Boy could go. Come on 8.1999. I think he could represented the US well and I do think we should be sending horses to this competition.

[dressagefriend]

We need to be sending Riders and Horses to Verden to show we are able to breed and train them. I think cheers and support should be given to the breeders, riders, owners who are willing to spend the money to send these horses. Most of the riders are pros who will lose money because they are leaving their business to compete one horse. The experience these riders will gain by going and just being there cannot be duplicated here in the U.S. It is sad that Cabana Boy had this ride at Raleigh. I have seen him this year and thought he looked very strong and ready for the task. Too bad our YH coach does not have any input on our Short List.

[DownYonder]

If a US judge has no unique method for YH test and is going on a baseline of never giving 9's and rarely 8's in a regular dressage test and continues to give mostly 7's even when a trot is good or very good, then I don't think the judging is the same as in Europe.

From what I have been hearing, that is quite frequently a problem with some of the judges. It bothers me to learn there are officials out there judging OFFICIAL QUALIFIERS for the National Championships and/or World Championships, who have never been to a Y/H judging course, and who may have a philosphy of never giving 9's in a regular dressage test, and rarely 8's. If they have not been properly trained on how to judge a Y/H test, this philosophy is going to carry over into their judging of those tests. So a horse with a "9" or "10" walk, trot or canter - and yes, there are some out there - will get marked at "7" or "8" because the judge is afraid to break his/her own pattern.

That said, I have never seen a young horse here that is on par with the top 5 at the WCYH with the simultaneous expression, power, and relaxation.

I would submit that Jason Canton's Grandioso shows world class power, scope, expression, and elasticity in his gaits, and there may be others that I haven't seen. What Grandioso doesn't have that the top 5 at the WC have is a rider with TONS of experience riding the Y/H tests. Yes, we have some riders that have now ridden these tests every year since the program's inception in the U.S., but the majority of riders showing in these classes are learning as they go. It's going to take time to "grow" a good rider base that can be truly competitive on the world stage - and let's face it, top equine candidates for this program don't exactly grow on trees. Sometimes a rider gets some excellent experience with one horse for 1-2 years, but then the horse ages out of the program and the rider doesn't have another one to take its place. Of course they can move the horse into the Developing Horse program, but that doesn't help them reach a goal of getting to the Y/H WC in Verden. That is another aspect of the problem here, and I think, IIRC, that was one of the motives behind this program - how to identify both top young horses AND top young horse riders and get them matched up to the benefit of all.

[DownYonder]

I rode in the 4 year old test on Sunday. It was held in the covered arena, and Lilo Fore did the commentary. I think she was right on with her comments and scores. It was my guy's first show ever, so he was a little spooky and wiggly, but I find Raleigh to be a pretty nice place in general. Not nearly as spooky as some other venues, and always so well run.

And you did quite well, too - winning the class of, what was it - 8 riders? And on a young stallion, too! Kudos to you!

I also want to take this opportunity to say something that someone mentioned to me privately. I have never been to Raleigh, but it is my understanding that Janine Malone always does a bang-up job running this show. As this person said, there is NO ONE who tries harder to put on a good show for the competitors than Janine. So - many kudos to Janine, too!

[hsheffield]

ditto on the kudos to Janine. she does an unimaginable amount of work getting this show together for little reward.

thank you Janine! Great job!

[DownYonder]

JMHO - but I feel there is a big difference between a horse that is tense from bad riding and a horse that occasionally gets "show" tense from the venue or outside stimulus. A tremendous number of horses who went on to be even Olympic competitors had issues of spooky or tense behavior when they were young but with time, correct riding and more exposure to showing - it went away. With the Young Horse championships if the horse is tense from outside stimulus and the rider just keeps going and pushes through it - I don't feel there should be ANY mark down. It happens - it's normal. If the horse is tense or incorrect in it's body because of bad riding - that should be noted. If a horse is just NOT submissive to the aids and the riding is correct - big mark down.

But all of this takes a judge with a keen eye, EXPERIENCE with young horses (BTW - they are all different even at the same age) and TACT when it comes to communicating to the RIDER what the scores reflected.

Excellent points, Ilona. I do wonder how many of the judges have much RECENT experience riding youngsters. It is pretty unrealistic to expect a 5 y/o to act completely bombproof and letter perfect. Youngsters are going to make baby mistakes, they are going to be more curious about what is going on around them, they are going to not be able to deal with "distractions" with the same aplomb as a seasoned show veteran. Judges need to be able to take that into account.

[slc2]

At some smaller shows I see people enter the young horse tests who really have lost track of what the intention of the classes is.

The intention of the classes is to develop top level horses. The makers of the tests did not create them to help people market average horses that can't move past second or third level. These tests are bridges to the FEI.

I wasn't at Raleigh so I can't say about there, but i DO see people entering these classes inappropriately at other shows (and these comments are general, not specific to Raleigh).

I suppose there are some judges who don't judge these classes well, but fortunately, I think that MOST of the judges doing these classes know very well how to judge these classes and they DO ignore excitement and minor mistakes in the horses. They DO comment on fundamental issues and things that keep horses from moving up.

I feel that most of the YH judges are judging the balance, gaits, willingness and potential of the horses. While that can be affected by atmosphere at a show, and that it's very possible that the layout of a place can get to some horses, I still feel most judges can see what the horses are or aren't, even when there are minor mistakes or excitement.

I wish ALL our national tests were judged exactly how the YH tests are judged. I love seeing the exhuberant forwardness of the YH horses, 'submissiveness' means something very different in there and I think it's right. We got several tapes of the YH championships in Europe and it was really stunning. I think that's how horses should do the lower level tests!

[YankeeLawyer]

The intention of the classes is to develop top level horses. The makers of the tests did not create them to help people market average horses that can't move past second or third level. These tests are bridges to the FEI.
.


Just to be clear, I never suggested otherwise. However, I do think the judges are overly focused on identifying horses that, for example, could be top-6 at Verden, rather than developing top level horses more generally.

[Tiki]

Again, the entire focus of the scoring is VERY different from the USEF scores. A USEF test may have 17-25 movements in it and each movement is scored - some with coefficients.

The Young Horse Tests have 5 scores: Trot; Canter; Walk; Submissiveness; and Overall Impression. 5 scores, five scores; FIVE SCORES!!!

The only way a movement affects the test is if there is so much tension that it is just not done properly. The movements are used to showcase the gaits, elasticity, freedom of movement, relaxation and brilliance of the horse, not to be used against the horse.

The resultant scores of a USEF Test run, generally, from 50% - 70%, with some higher and some lower. In order to be competitive, the Young Horse Test scores need to be in the 7.8 - 9.5 range. These would be based, for example, on scores of: Walk 9; (relaxed, swinging, good reach/overstep, rhythmic, regular), Trot 8.5; (even, regular, relaxed, forward, rhythmic, balanced), Canter 8.8; (uphill, bounding, rhythmic, balanced, even, regular, expressive), Submissiveness 8.7; (momentary loss of attentiveness, showing a bit of resistance picking up right lead canter), Overall Impression 9.2; (this is a horse we would all like to ride (said by Hilda Gurney at one test), shows true quality, has most of the basics down really well, shows brilliance with relaxation, shows good balance and ability to sit and collect at upper levels) Final Score: 8.84. The sum of the individual scores divided by 5. No coefficients. No comments about the individual movements by movement. If you converted this score to a percentage, the horse would theoretically score 88.4%, but that's not really done. The scores don't have the same meaning. If the gaits are good, the judge needs to reward them.

If the horse has resistance problems, or balance problems and/or strength problems that is reflected in the submissiveness and/or overall impression. If the gaits are good, and pure, the gait scores should reflect that. A momentary sucking back or teeny shy in a very windy arena should not be reflected in the gaits scores. It it continues, it will be reflected in the submissiveness score. A score of 6.4 does not equal a score of 64% in a USEF test and is not something to rave about. A score of 9.5 is a great score, but does NOT translate to a score of 95% in a USEF test.

And there are more tactful ways to tell people that they have problems. Hilda Gurney, at the same show where she said, "This is a horse that we would all like to ride, with wonderful gaits" went on to discuss the problems by saying that, "Unfortunately he is lacking in his basic training to the point where he has balance issues.". That shows a good horse with a problem, while still respecting the rider. After all, sometimes an owner insists that the horse be shown in certain classes.

[slc2]

I didn't suggest you suggested, YankeeLawyer. I made a general comment.

"Top horses that aren't going to Verden"

It's pretty much de rigeur.

[DownYonder]

At some smaller shows I see people enter the young horse tests who really have lost track of what the intention of the classes is.

The intention of the classes is to develop top level horses. The makers of the tests did not create them to help people market average horses that can't move past second or third level. These tests are bridges to the FEI. !

I agree that some people enter horses in them that aren't true candidates for the Y/H program, sometimes because they are curious about the tests and just want to play around with them. OTOH, these classes are not particularly popular at our local shows - we often have only 1 or 2 entries, and sometimes none at all. I've got a nice 5 y/o that earned 70.5% at First Level Test 4 at his first show only 8 weeks after being imported, and just 4 weeks after my trainer sat on him for the first time. He would have scored higher, but he broke at the counter-canter in one direction, so earned a "4" on that movement. His other counter-canter earned an "8",and he got a plethora of 7s and 8s on other movements. I have been told by a very BNT - a trainer's trainer, if you will - that he might make a lovely Y/H candidate. We are tempted to try the program, but the inconsistency of judging worries me, and I am REALLY worried about the fact that there is no mandatory training program for the judges.

I suppose there are some judges who don't judge these classes well, but fortunately, I think that MOST of the judges doing these classes know very well how to judge these classes and they DO ignore excitement and minor mistakes in the horses. They DO comment on fundamental issues and things that keep horses from moving up.

I feel that most of the YH judges are judging the balance, gaits, willingness and potential of the horses. While that can be affected by atmosphere at a show, and that it's very possible that the layout of a place can get to some horses, I still feel most judges can see what the horses are or aren't, even when there are minor mistakes or excitement.!

As I said earlier, I think it is extremely important to the integrity of this program to use only the proven GOOD judges at the qualifiers, and to insist on some kind of training/credentialing program for the Y/H judges. Maybe USEF should sent Scott Hassler around the country to "judge the judges" - lol!
[/QUOTE]

[Schiffon]

Tiki said:
"Young Horse Test scores need to be in the 7.8 - 9.5 range. These would be based, for example, on scores of: Walk 9; (relaxed, swinging, good reach/overstep, rhythmic, regular), Trot 8.5; (even, regular, relaxed, forward, rhythmic, balanced), Canter 8.8; (uphill, bounding, rhythmic, balanced, even, regular, expressive), Submissiveness 8.7; (momentary loss of attentiveness, showing a bit of resistance picking up right lead canter)"

Tiki, where did you get this information? This is the type of direction what I was looking for when I attended the USDF university program. What would be the descriptor for an 8.0 trot? What if the horse has a 9 trot for half of the test and an 8 trot for the other half? Do they get an 8.5? What other positive descriptor would be added for a 9.5 canter?

Even if all of the scores "need" to be in the 7.8 - 9.5 range (which I don't think is true, you see scores in the 6s from Germany all the time), that is 16 scores the judge needs to choose from (a bigger number of choices than 0-10). I 'm not sure it is possible to express in words the difference between these scores. I get the feeling that this might be something that is passed down by word of mouth in judge training in Europe, because scoring a gait is done in many venues, like stallion testing and mare testing, such that a person aspiring to be a judge has the opportunity to see hundreds of horses scored and it gets imprinted in their brain.

[Tiki]

Yes, you see scores in the 6's, but those horses don't get to the BuCha or the WCYH. Unless the mature later, they probably also don't make it to the FEI levels. The cutoff to qualify for those used to be 8.0, I'm not sure what it is this year. Probably right around there. For this year, in the U.S. the qualifying score to go the the WCYH was 8.2. Only one horse made it. If the horses are scoring consistently in the 6's, they're either not ready for this level. I'm not a judge, so I can't answer all your questions on some of the fine points, but these are examples of some of the types of comments I've heard on the better horses at some of the shows. They are very different from what you hear/see on USDF tests. The focus is just entirely different.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

I'm the first to say I don't have the answer, but I do think at this point the Young Horse program is in the developmental stages - sure, we may have some pairs already competitive at the international level, but I think nurturing the horses, the riders, the owners, the whole program should be a focus of current activities.

"Things we must learn before doing, we can only learn by doing them" is an Aristotle quote I hear often enough from my coach. Getting some riders and owners and trainers to Verden even if they won't win "this" year is part of the puzzle. Creating pairs who won't be blown out of the water once there, or in the qualifying classes, is another part.

I'm not saying "judges, round up!" or "c'mon everyone, enter these classes!" but creating a situation where riding the tests can be an educational experience rather than a humiliating one seemsl ike it would be a wise investment in our future.

[canticle]

I wish ALL our national tests were judged exactly how the YH tests are judged. I love seeing the exhuberant forwardness of the YH horses, 'submissiveness' means something very different in there and I think it's right. We got several tapes of the YH championships in Europe and it was really stunning. I think that's how horses should do the lower level tests!
Oh god, I hope not. These YH shows are NOT dressage!!! You yourself said that potential is being judged. That is not a directive of a real dressage test! The YH shows are not judged on horses' training, but on flamboyance. All of the "minor" errors which these tests ignore are what prevent these from being real dressage. In an actual dressage test, you are going to be marked down for disobedience, spooking, tenseness, impure gaits.

[DownYonder]

OK, I just went back over the scores for one of the horses in the 5 y/o classes. The horse in question was Ronatella S. I chose her because she had a very good score from her previous outing, and good scores Sat/Sun at Raleigh. I mentioned this in an earlier post, but I think it reflects a really good indication that apparently SOMETHING wasn't right at Raleigh in the Friday classes.

Ronatella's score from Atlanta (April):
8.22 (judges Ludwig and Hastings)

Her scores from Raleigh:
Friday - 6.76 (judges McDonald & Colliander) :eek:
Saturday - 7.86 (judges Fore, Zang, Gribbons)
Sunday - 8.0 (judges Fore, Zang, Gribbons)

Again, I wasn't at Raleigh, but I'm guessing she was one of the horses that had a really tough time relaxing in the indoor on Friday, and she got heavily penalized for it by the judge. It looks as though by Saturday, she had started to sort things out a bit, and had more forgiving judges - and the scores reflected that. By Sunday, she was apparently REALLY getting things under control.

The sad part is that, going into Raleigh, she was either in first or second place in the national rankings for the national championships in KY (don't have the previous list in front of me). Only the Friday score from Raleigh counted toward the national rankings list for KY, and that low score bumped her down to #16 on the new rankings list.

I would submit that her OTHER scores are a truer indication of the quality of horse and rider, so it is doubly a shame that under the current system, ONE bad outing at a tough venue under an overly critical judge can affect the rankings so much. Luckily, the qualifying period for KY runs through Aug. 15, so hopefully her owner will be able to get her out to a few more qualifying competitions over the next few months to get her average back up. I don't even know the mare or her owner/rider, but she sounds quite lovely and probably very deserving of getting an invite to KY in September.

[XHalt]

Some good information here including what's a 6, 7, 8 etc (hard to believe no one has posted it yet after 6 pages!)...

http://www.usef.org/documents/international/dressage/youngHorse/New2007YHGuidelines.pdf

I think you are always going to have a tough judge here and there...that's the sport. But you have to put faith in the fact that two S judges (min) are required to judge these tests. Often they converse regarding your horse through the entire test, discussing what scores to give. So I think a lot more thought and effort goes into the five scores. The program isn't right for every horse or every rider and the judges certainly don't want to see those that it's not right for!

[ise@ssl]

Perhaps the system should require more shows and allow one drop score. Every horse has a bad day and/or maybe just lousy judges. And I don't think they should have have regional championships - just go with the scores from all the shows they showed at up to a date. The problem with regionals in this country is the travel distance. We could very well have excellent candidates in remote areas of the US but they don't have a chance if they don't travel to these Regionals - which in some cases might take days and cost a bloody fortune.

This would also encourage more people to enter the classes at the shows they can easily travel to and give the horse/rider combinations more experience riding these tests in front of a variety of judges.

There should be a minimum number of scores but at least 6.

JMHO - but this would make more sense to grow the program and bring more people and there horses into the process.

[honeylips]

Perhaps the system should require more shows and allow one drop score.

The rules DO provide for a DROP SHOW. It is on the USEF site - the minimum # of shows required is 2, if you have more than 2 your lowest 1 will be dropped.

[DownYonder]

Right, the rules allow for one drop score as long as the horse has at least two other scores from official qualifying competitions. At the moment, Ronatella only has two scores from qualifying competitions - the Atlanta score of 8.22 and the Raleigh score of 6.76, giving her an average of 7.49.

[honeylips]

Knowing Joe and Helen I would be willing to bet they get to another show before the qualifying period runs out.

[DownYonder]

Knowing Joe and Helen I would be willing to bet they get to another show before the qualifying period runs out.

I hope so, she sounds like a very nice mare. I don't know where their home base is, but if they are convenient to the VA shows, there are a few more qualifiers coming up this month and next in Leesburg and Lexington.

[DownYonder]

And I don't think they should have have regional championships - just go with the scores from all the shows they showed at up to a date. The problem with regionals in this country is the travel distance. We could very well have excellent candidates in remote areas of the US but they don't have a chance if they don't travel to these Regionals - which in some cases might take days and cost a bloody fortune.

This would also encourage more people to enter the classes at the shows they can easily travel to and give the horse/rider combinations more experience riding these tests in front of a variety of judges.

There should be a minimum number of scores but at least 6.


The regionals are only mandatory for horses trying to qualify for the World Championships in Verden. They aren't mandatory for the National Championships in KY. For the NC, horses only have to have two qualifying scores of 7.2 or higher from two different official qualifying competitions, and they have to be ranked in the top 20 of their age group at the end of the qualifying period. Ronatella's score from Raleigh doesn't even meet the criteria, so she HAS to get at least one more qualifying score to have a chance of being invited to KY. Too bad her Sunday score from Raleigh didn't count!

Also, I'm guessing the reason they went to regional championships for the Verden hopefuls is so Scott Hassler has a chance to see and work with all of them. There is no way he could get to every qualifying show around the country. And a minimum of 6 scores is not really practical - there aren't enough qualifying competitions in many regions.

[honeylips]

Ronatella/Joe Sandvens home base is Fletcher, NC. www.tantalusfarm.com
Joe is a veteran of the FEI YH world and represented the USA in Verden back in 2003 with Rachmaninoff. He certainly knows his way around the FEI YH circuit and is a fine rider.

[ise@ssl]

Well I don't see the connection of having Scott work with the people and broadening the # of people participating. We have a huge country here and we probably have a lot of good riders with great horses who could qualify to go to Verden but logistics - nixes that. Having more scores required - i.e. 6 minimum and NO regional would make more sense. I don't see why recognized shows can't add the classes. Even 4 makes more sense than 2.

Having someone work with a horse/rider combination at a show when they haven't worked with them before isn't going make a huge difference - at a show - IMHO. Having more people involved and familiar with the focus and scoring process makes it more likely on a probability basis that we will have more horses with a final qualifying score.

[DownYonder]

Well I don't see the connection of having Scott work with the people and broadening the # of people participating. We have a huge country here and we probably have a lot of good riders with great horses who could qualify to go to Verden but logistics - nixes that. Having more scores required - i.e. 6 minimum and NO regional would make more sense. I don't see why recognized shows can't add the classes. Even 4 makes more sense than 2.

Having someone work with a horse/rider combination at a show when they haven't worked with them before isn't going make a huge difference - at a show - IMHO. Having more people involved and familiar with the focus and scoring process makes it more likely on a probability basis that we will have more horses with a final qualifying score.

I imagine that Scott's main purpose is to work with the riders and horses that may or are going to Verden. I know he was working with some (all - ?) of them at Raleigh. And I believe he will also be at Nationals to work with those horses and riders.

I still think there is too much focus on Verden with this program. There are no doubt a heck of a lot of good young horse/rider combos around the country that have what it takes to be very successful in the Y/H tests but who have no desire to go to Verden - or maybe have the desire, but not the financial means. They need to make the program more user friendly for those that are aiming for the NC but not the WC, and for those that don't even care if they go to the NC but just want to move through the program.

[carovet]

just fyi -- there are not that many qualifiers (re: suggesting 4 or 6 scores total)

i live in south carolina -- despite 3 months left, my only remaining options after raliegh in my region to get another score were to drive 8 plus hours to florida (in the summer, nuts!), or out of the region and 7 hours to virginia.....or 14-16 hours to new york :eek:

most of the south east qualifiers were in florida during the florida season -- but how many young horses are going to lay down their best test that early in the season?

and for those of us that don't travel to florida for the winter season the options are limited -- i had exactly 3 shows within "reasonable" (6-7 hr) driving distance at any point this year, april atlanta, may raliegh, and july virginia (and i think there was a poplar in georgia i had a conflict with)-- it was that or nothing if i wanted to get in 3 shows. there is no way i could get to another qualifier and keep my job and sanity

I couldn't choose 3 shows in the summer when my horse was most likely to be ready, I started in April before I could reliably lay down a finished test because if i didn't show there then i wouldn't have a drop anyway.

btw
for YH NC qualifying, i don't think you have to have 2 scores over 7.2, the text reads
"and maintain an overall average of 7.2"
so ronnie is still eligible for kentucky with no more shows...although at least in 2006 a 7.48 wasn't high enough to get invited as a 5 year, and though each year the #20th horse's score has been higher than the previous year, that may be different with the change in the qualifying shows this year

its funny
so many people argue that the young horse classes promote over showing and pushing young horses, then others argue that there should be a larger number of scores required to qualify which implies going to more shows, putting more travel miles on the horses, more stress, etc.

just additional food for thought

[ise@ssl]

There is nothing to stop the USEF from having more qualifiers. I don't think people should have to drive great distances to be able to qualify their horses - if you read my earlier post you will understand that I feel the program DOESN'T encourage people to participate simply by the logistics for showing.

JMHO but the people who do qualify their horses to go to Verden are usually people who either have their own coaches and trainers or have enough experience to get there on their own.

It's great that there's a coach at the finals but I'm wondering if the current program of symposiums and clinics is working. If you look back - we may have more entries but we certainly aren't getting more horses to qualify.

[DownYonder]

Carovet, I hear you. I am in Georgia and I am in same boat with my 5 y/o. He wasn't imported until late March and we didn't start riding him for another month, so missed the only two qualifiers in Georgia (both in April). None of the other shows in Georgia in May/June/July/August are official qualifiers - the show managers didn't apply to be qualifiers before the deadline of March 31. So we have to either drive 6 hours to Florida in July and August, or 8+ hours to Virginia.

However, you DO have to have at least TWO QUALIFYING SCORES. From the USEF website:
Markel/USEF National Young Horse Dressage Championships
2008 Selection Procedures for National Championships
Qualifying Procedure - #2 - "Horses must earn scores in at least two (2) different Qualifying Competitions." #4 - "Horses must obtain at least two (2) qualifying scores which meet all qualification requirements contained herein."

But I was wrong that the minimum qualifying score is 7.2. The actual verbiage is:
#7 - "A minimum overall average of 7.2 must be maintained for consideration for these Championships."

So Ronatella's score from Raleigh does still count, and she is qualified for the championships because her current average is 7.49. The problem is that her score from Raleigh bumped her down to #16 on the list, so she could be in danger of getting bumped out of the top 20 if they can't get her to another qualifying competition over the summer.

And Ilona - you are right, there is nothing to stop USEF from holding more qualifiers. The problem is that the show organizers have to apply by March 31 to be an official qualifier, and many shows didn't for some reason. I have spoken to some managers, and they felt that the info they got from USEF did not make a clear enough distinction between qualifying for the three regional selection trials for Verden, and qualifying for the National Championships. They saw that the selection trials for Verden were in May/June, so they didn't see the sense in applying for their summer shows to be qualifiers. I have also had several show managers state that these classes are poorly attended in most of their shows, with either one or two entries, or none at all, so they figured there wasn't much interest in their area.

I will be working with several people in my area (including breeders and y/h trainers) to lobby our local show managers to apply next year to be qualifiers, but I hope that USEF tweaks the qualifying requirements to make them a little more realistic for people that can't get to Florida over the winter or that don't live in areas with a lot of shows early in the year. Hopefully they can get the kinks ironed out in this program.

[magnum]

In the YDH classes at Waterloo Dressge (MI) this past weekend, there was DEFINITELY a slant towards the HORSE's *potential.* It was judged very similarly to a breed type of show (in hand) from the standpoint that the horses could make mistakes and even get goofy and still do well.

In fact, the winner on Saturday even broke canter so many times it barely finished that figure. I assumed it was "out" after that ... then it won the class! This horse was also the only qualifier (getting over 7.2) out of 3.

Meanwhile - IMHO - the 3rd place finisher rode a very NICE test (IMHO that ride was more skillfully piloted than the winning ride), but that horse did not get the 7.2 ... it was not as flamboyant a mover, but was definitely more correct based on traditional dressage judging (smoothness of transitions, consistency of frame, accuracy of figures, etc.). So, YES, these test scores are based on POTENTIAL.

I have no problem with juding based on POTENTIAL (altho that winner better get his canter fixed before Kentucky, LOL!).

I do have 2 questions: First - NO COMMENTARY was done at this show for the rides. I thought the only commentary was going to occur in Kentucky?

Secondly, are European YDH judges trained/ qualified to meet a certain standard? Is there no FEI mandate for judge's training (guess not, if we had none)? Would judges not have to meet minimal qual's. to judge the same way other forms of judging are implemented? I guess the answer is NO. With that assumption, my thought would be: if we don't train our judges (thusly, the question of consistency remains), and Europe trains theirs, then how competitive can "we" hope to be once we arrive? (Is this a case of "apples to oranges," here?)

BTW -- Eliza -- CONGRATS!

Magnum

[Schiffon]

Thanks Xhalt for posting the link to the USEF guidelines for judging. Some helpful specifics in there, although still talking in whole numbers. This is a problem to me when horses frequently win or lose a class by one or two tenths of a point.

I'm also disturbed by this statement:

"It also helps to keep track of the scores given to previous horses in the class so that the correct relationship among the horses are [sic] preserved."

This is an admission that the scoring process is not valid on its own and therefore the use of multiple shows with multiple judges to determine the qualified horses is unfair. If the goal of the national federation is to improve the outcome of US horses at the WCYH, maybe it would be a better investment to train a team of judges and have them travel to all of the qualifiers than to have a young horse director. This would give me more confidence that the best horses aren't left at home due to goofy judging.

[slc2]

"Scorekeeping" like that described in the previous quote is strictly forbidden and is highly unethical.

[arnika]

"It also helps to keep track of the scores given to previous horses in the class so that the correct relationship among the horses are [sic] preserved."


I find that statement appalling!!!

Each horse should and needs to be scored on it's own merits at that moment in the ring. Not given higher or lower scores to keep another horse in the place the judge has predecided should be its spot.

Sounds reminiscent of the news I saw this morning about the fixed playoff games in the NBA finals of 2002 and 2005 by the refs and the owners.

[DownYonder]

In the YDH classes at Waterloo Dressge (MI) this past weekend, there was DEFINITELY a slant towards the HORSE's *potential.* It was judged very similarly to a breed type of show (in hand) from the standpoint that the horses could make mistakes and even get goofy and still do well.

In fact, the winner on Saturday even broke canter so many times it barely finished that figure. I assumed it was "out" after that ... then it won the class! This horse was also the only qualifier (getting over 7.2) out of 3.

Who were the judges at Waterloo? I have heard that different judges have different opinions on the canter issue. Some will heavily penalize a horse for breaking the canter - both in the canter score and the submissiveness score - while other judges are much more forgiving about it.

I do have 2 questions: First - NO COMMENTARY was done at this show for the rides. I thought the only commentary was going to occur in Kentucky?

I thought they were supposed to give commentary at ALL qualifiers but I have heard of others where they didn't. So what does a rider do if it becomes apparent the judges aren't going to comment? Do they stay in the ring and ASK the judges for their comments, or do they just treat it like a regular dressage test and leave the arena after their final salute?

Secondly, are European YDH judges trained/ qualified to meet a certain standard? Is there no FEI mandate for judge's training (guess not, if we had none)? Would judges not have to meet minimal qual's. to judge the same way other forms of judging are implemented? I guess the answer is NO. With that assumption, my thought would be:[B] if we don't train our judges (thusly, the question of consistency remains), and Europe trains theirs, then how competitive can "we" hope to be once we arrive? (Is this a case of "apples to oranges," here?)

I agree. If our Y/H judges are not being trained and the European judges are, then obviously our Y/H program will suffer. I wonder how we can insist that Y/H judges go through a mandatory training program. Should USEF add another category of judges for those that HAVE been trained and certified to judge Y/H tests? As I said earlier, maybe the best thing for the program would be for Scott Hassler (and a team of other respected Y/H judges or specialists) to "judge the judges". Those who pass muster get a special certification allowing them to judge at qualifiers, and those that don't have to go back to school.

[DownYonder]

I'm also disturbed by this statement:

"It also helps to keep track of the scores given to previous horses in the class so that the correct relationship among the horses are [sic] preserved."

This is an admission that the scoring process is not valid on its own and therefore the use of multiple shows with multiple judges to determine the qualified horses is unfair. If the goal of the national federation is to improve the outcome of US horses at the WCYH, maybe it would be a better investment to train a team of judges and have them travel to all of the qualifiers than to have a young horse director. This would give me more confidence that the best horses aren't left at home due to goofy judging.

I agree. I saw that in the guidelines and thought it was quite an admission!

However, this type of thing happens in any sport where there is subjective judging (diving, figure skating, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, etc.) The first competitor gets a conservative score because the judge never knows if the next competitors are going to be better or worse. No matter how good the first competitor is, the judges feel they have to hold back a little bit because a subsequent competitor may be tons better.

However, the judges should not be making a predetermination about which horse should win the class! They should be judging what they see in front of them, and the horse with the highest score wins.

[rothmpp]

In the YDH classes at Waterloo Dressge (MI) this past weekend, there was DEFINITELY a slant towards the HORSE's *potential.* It was judged very similarly to a breed type of show (in hand) from the standpoint that the horses could make mistakes and even get goofy and still do well.

In fact, the winner on Saturday even broke canter so many times it barely finished that figure. I assumed it was "out" after that ... then it won the class! This horse was also the only qualifier (getting over 7.2) out of 3.

Meanwhile - IMHO - the 3rd place finisher rode a very NICE test (IMHO that ride was more skillfully piloted than the winning ride), but that horse did not get the 7.2 ... it was not as flamboyant a mover, but was definitely more correct based on traditional dressage judging (smoothness of transitions, consistency of frame, accuracy of figures, etc.). [B]So, YES, these test scores are based on POTENTIAL.

I was at the same show. I have to agree with the assessment of the two horses here, BUT, when I think of flamboyant FEI horses, the development of the gaits of the winner was not where I would expect a 5YO based on others I have seen over the past couple of years. It does bear saying that several of the young horses had some "concerns" over the the puddles from the torrential rain the night before. It was NOT slippery or deep, but several of them wanted nothing to do with the water.


I do have 2 questions: First - NO COMMENTARY was done at this show for the rides. I thought the only commentary was going to occur in Kentucky?

There was commentary on Sunday - I heard some of it, just not on Friday or Saturday.

BTW - the judges were Brenda Minor and Betsy Berrey.

[Tiki]

Also, I'm guessing the reason they went to regional championships for the Verden hopefuls is so Scott Hassler has a chance to see and work with all of them. The regionals were in place for several years before Scott was named Young Horse Coach (YHC). The USEF holds clinics with the YHC, but they seem to be only in Florida, California and Texas (?????), and you have to be 'qualified' before you are invited to the clinic. I ain't trailering my horse to any of them thar places I one of mine qualifies. It IS a big country and that's not sufficient.

Mike Poulin put on the first Young Horse Judge Trainer's Clinic this March, I think it was with Christoph Hess as the clinician. This was the first in this country. We need certified, trained judges to teach these clinics, not a coach. The coach's job is to train the riders and help with the horses, not to train the judges.

[Capriole]

The problem is that the show organizers have to apply by March 31 to be an official qualifier, and many shows didn't for some reason.
Just to be clear, shows had to apply by March 31, 2007, in order to be qualifiers for 2008.

I think a lot of non-professional show managers are becoming confused by the various awards program and paperwork.

[rothmpp]

Just to be clear, shows had to apply by March 31, 2007, in order to be qualifiers for 2008.

I think a lot of non-professional show managers are becoming confused by the various awards program and paperwork.


There was an opportunity for shows to apply to be "summer" qualifiers with the change in the program this year until March 31 of this year. There are a couple of reasons I can either think of or know managers cited as the reason for not applying:

1. This requires the show to have hired at least two S judges. Expensive for shows that rarely get more than a handful of FEI rides.

2. There was some concern among even the professional managers that applying and receiving YH qualifiers in the summer might affect the number of qualifiers that they are approved for next spring, when they feel there is more of a market for the classes.

I think that one thing that we can all agree on is that the changes in the program this year caught us by surprise. As someone has already said, if you are in the east and don't winter in Florida, you're far behind the ball by March, when most of our horses are not even a full 4, 5 or 6 yet. Not many of us knew that official qualifiers were coming and did not plan our seasons accordingly. One thing that all of us with young horses that were negatively affected by the program changes this year can do is make our concerns known to USEF and our representatives.

[carovet]

"Scorekeeping" like that described in the previous quote is strictly forbidden and is highly unethical.

that is indeed exactly what is done in the YH classes (keeping track of previous scores and running the math from horse to horse and adjust the new horse's score as the judges need to for it to placeas they feel it should) -- I have been a scribe and a score runner including at the kentucky championships and the judges are quite open about the fact that that practice is "the norm" for the YH classes. (because i asked:D)

re: if the judges don't have a mic/loud speaker

I have indeed waited in the ring and then asked the judges if they were going to give a commentary -- when they said they didn't have a mic I asked them to go ahead anyway so that i could hear, more than once I had judges not provided with mic's (and i have walked over beside the judge' stand to hear other horse's commentary when they didn't have a mic and i was watching)

i think only once did i have a judge say "it will be on your written test" and not offer to give a verbal report

re: shows that are/arent qualifiers

I had a show manager tell me that they were not approved to be qualifier shows despite having 2 "S" judges and a long history of sucessful shows -- basically that the same shows that would (in non olympic years) be HP qualifiers for the national GP and Inter championships would be qualifiers for the YH program

re: consistency in regional qualifiers for worlds
I believe (but not for sure) that last year and this year they had at least 1 judge that was indeed on each of the 3 panels to try to maintain just that consistency from coast to coast

[magnum]

I agree. If our Y/H judges are not being trained and the European judges are, then obviously our Y/H program will suffer.

Assuming this is the case, how would it even be possible?

Isn't it the job of the FEI to create and enforce rules for their respective programs CONSISTENTLY around the world (meaning, isn't that WHY they are the FEI, rather than the CDF or USDF) ?

Can one country administer an FEI program differently than other?

Magnum

[DownYonder]

re: shows that are/arent qualifiers

I had a show manager tell me that they were not approved to be qualifier shows despite having 2 "S" judges and a long history of sucessful shows -- basically that the same shows that would (in non olympic years) be HP qualifiers for the national GP and Inter championships would be qualifiers for the YH program

Are you talking about the regional championships/WC selection trials, or qualifier competitions? My understanding from what Jennifer Keeler sent me was that any show that applied by the deadline could be a qualifier as long as they guaranteed they would have two S judges or higher judging the classes. Besides, there were some qualifiers in my area in April at shows that definitely not HP qualifiers for national GP and Intermediare championships.

[DownYonder]

Assuming this is the case, how would it even be possible?

Isn't it the job of the FEI to create and enforce rules for their respective programs CONSISTENTLY around the world (meaning, isn't that WHY they are the FEI, rather than the CDF or USDF) ?

Can one country administer an FEI program differently than other?

Magnum


Yes, I would think the FEI should be making sure that the Y/H program is administered the same from one country to the next. However, it appears that USEF makes the rules for the Y/H program in the U.S.

Canadians - do you have an FEI Y/H program up there? How is it structured/administered?

[DownYonder]

I also wanted to add that the other thing that really bugs me about the qualifying procedure is this:

You have to file a letter of intent to compete at the national championships but the deadline schedule makes no sense. There is an application fee of $50 if filed by June 20. The application fee jumps to $150 after June 20, with the final deadline being Aug. 1. The kicker? There are still qualifiers going on in July and early August so some folks are going to have to file the letter of intent before they even earn their qualifying scores. :confused:

[honeylips]

This is not a new technique -we had to declare for the I-1 championships in the same way - months before we had our scores either. This is a fee that the organizing bodies want to collect up front to track our scores and put us on a ranking list.

[DownYonder]

This is not a new technique -we had to declare for the I-1 championships in the same way - months before we had our scores either. This is a fee that the organizing bodies want to collect up front to track our scores and put us on a ranking list.

Yes, I understand that. It's a bit different situation, though. Your I-1 horse is a seasoned campaigner and you usually have a pretty fair idea what to expect in various environments. A Y/H is very much a clean slate, and every outing can be an eye-opener. :lol:

[siegi b.]

DownYonder - a 5- or 6-year old horse shouldn't be such a "clean slate" to where every outing could be an eye opener. I think that even applies to some extent to the 4-year olds....

Take Valeska DG and Willy Arts for example.... Valeska is a pretty hot horse and every outing is, in fact, a different experience. But, Willy knows that and warms up and then rides accordingly.

Just my opinion....

[DownYonder]

Compared to a seasoned Intermediare campaigner, most 5 y/o's ARE a clean slate. Yes, once should have some idea what to expect, but the fact is that 5 y/o's do not have the mileage on them that an upper level horse has. It makes planning ahead regarding "letters of intent" a bit trickier.

[hsheffield]

Kudos to Michael Poulin for having Christoph Hess here: I am sorry I couldn't make the session but am a big fan of his commentary. He's judged several times in Verden and has a way of commenting on the horses that is thoughtful, honest and still kind.

IMO, the USEF should obtain video of comments from Verden (not just from Hess..) and make them available to US judges who want to learn more about YH classes. I have years of these on tape and can't tell you how instructional they can be.

That being said, there is no doubt that the judges recognize the difference between a scared horse in a difficult environment and one with limited talent. You should see some of Holga Finken's horses: often hot, hot, hot, with plenty looks around but still rewarded for great gaits-but hurt in submission and a little in overall impression.

As for Ronatella S: she was clearly spooked by the indoor at Raleigh on Friday and had trouble maintaining focus thorughout her test. Regardless, her gaits are outstanding and were underscored IMO by the Friday panel. On Sat. and Sun. I felt the scores were about right. She was still a little distracted but focus got better each day. Too bad, as she had won reitpferdeprufung in Germany with scores of 8.4 and may have been competitive in Verden, especially as the venue is outside.

I think what bothered me the most about the YH judging in Raleigh, was MacDonald making comments critical of the riding rather than being able to see that the horses were having focus problems in a difficult arena. Most showing these horses are professional trainers and to tell the competitors that their horse won't make it to the next level because of your riding is just plain cruel. (this was not said to Ronatella's rider but to another competitor. my jaw almost hit the floor when I heard this.) These kinds of comments will cost these folks income. It's especially silly when the comments probably weren't justified. I also was told by a friend who was there, that she was still blasting the riders at lunch on Friday to the other judges. I guess this goes on all the time, but I can't help but think that she colored the other judges' opinions when they judged these riders later....


It's a strange, strange, thing we do!!!

[Tiki]

Not just at Raleigh has she done this.

[slc2]

You guys don't mean to try to tell me that there is a horsewoman out there who is opinionated and critical of other riders???!!!!

She must have learned that here!

Come on guys, hasn't she made those comments for about a jillion years?