Foal with parrot mouth

[mlranchtx]

Our first foal was born on Tuesday and he has a pretty bad parrot mouth. He nurses fine but when the vet was out to draw blood she pointed it out to me and said it might need some attention/corrective work.

Has anyone had experience with this? My vet led me to believe if it's severe enough that regular floating/bite allignment won't keep it in check then they might be able to put some type of braces on him while he's still young to slow the upper jaw growth and let the lower jaw catch up, thus fixing it permenantly. Anyone heard of this?

I'm going to get a couple of different opinions before we do anything. If he is shown it will be in jumpers (that's all I really enjoy) so if he's a bit goofy looking it's ok. I just want him to be able to eat without too much difficulty. Believe me, i'm not after a cosmetic fix, it's for function.

Also, is this genetic or congenital (sp?)? My vet said recessive genetic which would make sense because both mom and dad and paternal grandparents are fine.... But I have a friend in vet school and she said they taught that it was congenital....

Thoughts, suggestions appreciated! Other than that he's perfect so we still consider ourselves very fortunate :-)

[pintofoal]

I've only ever had one parrot mouth foal born here and the cruelest thing I have ever done to a foal was trying to "fix" her parrot mouth with the braces -- seemed like a good solution/idea when the vets talked us into it. and braces well that sound just fine, heck I had them as a kid. I have never been so grossed out and sickened by what was done. the filly had a twisted wire drilled into her bone that dug into her gums and jaw it was just horrible, it stunk like a dead animal made her whole mouth swell and bleed. I had it removed within two weeks I couldn't stand it anymore. It was done by Marion Dupont Equine Hospital, so not some off the cuff job. I'd take a severe parrot mouth over that treatment again any day.

Our filly that had the parrot mouth was a twin, so it was determined it congenital and not hereditary. I personally think most parrot mouth is congenital. The same mare stallion combination never produced one again.

Good luck and if you decide to do braces -- ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS about it and what to exspect, I would never ever recommend it!

[mlranchtx]

Thanks for that info, keep it comin!!

How was your filly after that?

I guess it comes down to a quality of life deal. I'm worried if they determine that it's very severe and we don't do something he'll be forever thin and have difficulty eating. I know horses are pretty adaptive though and there are plenty of feeds available. I just what to do what's going to be best for him.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

My advice is don't do it. I have a three year old parrot mouth gelding who is under saddle now. The bit in his mouth presents no problem. Kyle King and his crew are here working out of our barn. He or one of his riders gets on this gelding almost every day. They love him. The parrot mouth has no affect on his ability to be a jumper.

All this to say I was worried when I discovered the parrot mouth, but it has turned out to be no problem. Another reason corrective measures might not be such a good idea is, what if you cause him to have a sensitive mouth when he otherwise might have had a good soft mouth? I say leave him alone.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Thanks for that info, keep it comin!!

How was your filly after that?

I guess it comes down to a quality of life deal. I'm worried if they determine that it's very severe and we don't do something he'll be forever thin and have difficulty eating. I know horses are pretty adaptive though and there are plenty of feeds available. I just what to do what's going to be best for him.

I thought the same thing, but ours has no problem keeping weight on. If he had a grazing problem, which ours doesn't, I would feed forage. Anything is better than putting the animal through "braces". The only thing we have to do extra for him is to have his teeth floated more often than our other horses.

[llsc]

I worked for a Quarterhorse farm years back who stood a stallion who threw parrot mouths on many of the foals. None of them had problems eating and it certainly didn't affect their performance or keep many of them from winning halter classes. No one ever checked their mouths and many of them were pretty severe.

I wouldn't mess with the foal if the correction is so invasive.

[mlranchtx]

Another reason corrective measures might not be such a good idea is, what if you cause him to have a sensitive mouth when he otherwise might have had a good soft mouth? I say leave him alone.

I thought about that as well. Also, they act like if they do something it's when he's VERY young, like under 6 months. I'm thinking putting him under anethesia seveal times under 6 months sounds a little scary. I think I'm going to have a couple of vets that specialize in dentisitry look at him and give their imput.

For some reason I can't get photobucket.com to pull up.... I took some really cute pictures of him last night.

[DebPaxhia]

I would give it some time. I had a filly born with a pretty good over bite--parrot mouth? Within a few weeks it was gone. There is just a teeny bit of over bit now. Almost none. I don't think most people would even notice it. I have heard that my experience with this filly isn't uncommon.

I agree with most of the other posters, if it isn't life threatening for the foal, and he can eat OK I wouldn't mess with it.

[Blonde Filly]

One other thing that has not been mentioned here yet is the upper jaw and lower jaw grow at different rates...sometimes a foal by have a slight over bite then it is gone then they grow more and it is back then grow and it is gone, so the jaw does grow at different rates and the severe parrot mouth may not be as severe once the horse is full grown too.

[jaimebaker]

I had a sow-mouthed colt born a few years back. I actually didn't notice it until the vet pointed it out (I'd never dealt with it before). When he was a year old, I put him on a skeletal supplement called Calphormin. I kept him on Calphormin for about 8 months. There's not a thing crooked on this horse anymore and his mouth straightened as well. Could be coincidence with him just growing out of it, but it convinced me. I got mine through Jeffers.

[Showsheen]

The only horse I really heard that had braces and it worked well to correct was a Quarter Horse that made the papers because of it.
Unless it is really severe and it affects the horse's ability to eat, leave it alone.
There was a horse named Delightful Sundae that Leslie Burr Lenehan Howard showed to win the National Green Conformation title, in the 1980's?. She was a bay with flashy white markings, small, maybe 15.3 standing on her tippy toes and she was bought out of Keeneland racehorse sales and won the strips in virtually all her classes.
I know her well because her owner was a friend and she boarded where I did and I bought one of her babies. Delightful Sundae had a square jaw on one side and a parrot mouth. Certainly did not affect her. My filly had a slight overbite and a small mouth.
So, leave it alone, unless there is an eating issue and keep in mind, you can get clonked sometimes even when they go to cuddle and rest their head on your shoulder because those teeth stick out!! I had to teach mine to place her head slowly on me and not press down, haha!

[holsteinersrock]

There was an article in the Equus magazine recently, and first of all it said that a parrot mouth is congenital, but not (necessarily) hereditary. It could be, for example, caused by something that the mare ate when pregnant!

However it appears to be more common in certain breeds such as mini-ponies (that have lots of other problems as well, such as difficult births)... yet I have never found an equine specialist who could identify the cause, or how it would be inherited (if it is inherited).

So it pretty much is considered a freak incident, and one of our vets, an equine dental specialist B.A. Rucker says that the parrot mouth may bother an owner or a purchaser, but it does not bother the horse.

Said article in Equus described how a wire treatment can be applied, to make the jaws grow even, but I have heard it's not always successful and must be quite painful --- indeed plastic dental growth plates were preferred in the article and currently amongst specialists, should anybody want to treat a foal for cosmetic etc reasons.

When I lived in Switzerland I knew a grade A international eventer that had gribbed off all his front teeth --- a much worse scenario than a bite problem, but he got along just fine, ate his hay and feed and kept winning.

Anna

[mlranchtx]

Wow, thanks for all the replies and info, I really appreciate it!

Again, I don't care what he looks like, he's my first foal and I am just tickled to death that he had 4 legs and a heartbeat!

I would not, under any circumstances, consider any correction on a cosmetic basis. He's my boy even if he looks competely rediculous once he's grown.

I think the concern is that if his top and bottom teeth don't touch at all, the vet thinks he'll have trouble eating.

Keep the tips and opinions coming!! I'll keep ya'll posted if anything changes and I'll try to get some pictures of his goofy smile.

[Foxtrot's]

There are many degrees of parrot mouth - from being unable to graze at all, to being just a bit buck toothed. I had a big gelding that had quite a severe parrot mouth, but with regular dental work he was absolutely fine from grazing to riding. I'd definitely not worry for now until the foal is mature.

[mistyjewell]

I was actually just talkting to a pretty well respected breeder about this recently, and she said what was stated above, that the jaws grow at different rates, and that most foals are born with slight parrot mouths, and as they graze, they start to drop their lower jaws forward. When she had one with a more pronounced parrot mouth, she started feeding it its grain on the ground when it was old enough, and she said she could see a difference in as little as 2 weeks, and that now as a 4 year old, it doesn't have one at all. So maybe try and give it some grain in a bucket on the ground when its feeding time?

[rideagoldenpony]

You know, he might improve a bit with age, on his own.

Many years ago I had a Welsh Cob filly born with a pretty major overbite. I was feeling pretty sick about it. Her teeth really didn't quite even meet in the front. However, by the time she was weaned, she was 100% normal and you would have never known she was born that way. While your guy sounds more severe than that, you never know how much correction may occur as he grows.

I think the supplement mentioned above might not be a bad idea, also.

[holsteinersrock]

Wow, thanks for all the replies and info, I really appreciate it!
I would not, under any circumstances, consider any correction on a cosmetic basis. He's my boy even if he looks competely rediculous once he's grown.

I think the concern is that if his top and bottom teeth don't touch at all, the vet thinks he'll have trouble eating.

Believe me, he is not going to look completely ridiculous when he's grown: first of all, his mouth may correct itself, because overbites and underbites do grow back and forth early in life, second, if it does not, at warmblood foal inspections etc I do not think that a judge can spot a parrot mouth unless they systematically open the foals mouths and take a good deep look --- what does that tell you? He most likely will not grow up to be ugly, because nobody will see at the first glance if is bite is off, or not.

Not sure where your vet is getting his/her information from, but unless you turn the little guy out loose in the wilderness on sagebrush and rocks in, say, West Texas, where he has to eke out his living by the skin of his teeth, he ought not to fare any worse than any other horse.

He's nursing now, is he not?

I'd just keep an eye on his weight when he starts to rely on pasture, forage and grain/ supplement more than relying on mother's milk.

Parrot mouth horses usually can graze and eat hay just fine. Understandably slower than ones whose front teeth touch, but they can. They certainly are able to easily eat complete feeds (some of which do not even require pasture or hay be fed alongside), supplements, whatnot.

Consult a dental specialist if you are worried.

Our primary equine dentist B A Rucker figures at sites such as http://pro-equinedentistry.com/ and http://digitalequus.com/Products/dvd-intro.html or you can google him to pull up articles he has written etc --- and there are many, many other nationally and internationally known equine dental specialists that will take your questions and give you an answer, and work with your vet to determine what the best course of action is for your foal.

As Bonnie pointed out above, maybe just leave him alone and see how he does?

"Don't fix it if it is not broken". Obviously he has been diagnosded with a "malocclusion" (his teeth are "off"), but that may be (or most likely is???) fairly irrelevant for his performance career and quality of life. I hope that is the case.

I understand you are worried because you love your little guy and want the best for him, this is true (and ought to be true) of any responsible horse owner, so just check the facts and keep a vigilant eye on him --- and relax!!!

He may lose a few calories b/c any dental problem would do that, what if you have a mare, say, from the race track and she has sharp points and has not been floated for years... ??? We have all our horses checked and floated routinely, or if there is any reason to suspect a problem!

Anna

[mlranchtx]

Here's some pictures of him yesterday:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/mlranchtx/ShooterSassy2-1.jpg

And the face he made when I told him he might get braces:
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/mlranchtx/ShooterTongue.jpg

And him chasing his tail :-)
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/mlranchtx/ShooterDoingYoga.jpg

I'll try to get some good ones of his mouth.

[rideagoldenpony]

Awwwwww..... what a sweet face he has!!!

[Tiki]

I would leave him alone and let his parts grow. Even if he does have a bit of an overbite when grown, they very quickly learn to wrap their tongue around grass and pull off a bite. They do change as they grow. As a newborn I would definitely leave him alone. Some vets are just too quick to jump on something that will probably turn out to not be a problem and try to fix the non-problem thereby creating a BIG problem. Also, just because he has a bit of an overbite does NOT mean he has a parrot mouth. A parrot mouth is a very severe deformity that will interfere with eating. Lots of horses have an overbite. Lots of people do too. Lots of people have really bad buck teeth as well and none of them have eating problems. I will never understand why people, who may not be perfect, and who usually have all kinds of problems, expect their horses to be absolutely perfect :confused:. I see so many posts about 'should I buy this horse? he has a small scar on the inside of his fetlock. how much do you think I can knock off the price because of this?' :no::lol::D:eek::winkgrin:

[not again]

I have been told that some parrot mouth in foals can be due to mineral toxicity from excessive levels. But I can't recall which minerals........ Someone else can chime in any time!;)

[mlranchtx]

Also, just because he has a bit of an overbite does NOT mean he has a parrot mouth. A parrot mouth is a very severe deformity that will interfere with eating. Lots of horses have an overbite. Lots of people do too. Lots of people have really bad buck teeth as well and none of them have eating problems. I will never understand why people, who may not be perfect, and who usually have all kinds of problems, expect their horses to be absolutely perfect :confused:. I see so many posts about 'should I buy this horse? he has a small scar on the inside of his fetlock. how much do you think I can knock off the price because of this?' :no::lol::D:eek::winkgrin:

Well, I think the vet thinks it's going to be severe. As far as it looks right now, his upper and lower teeth probably won't tough... Doesn't look like there will be much of a gap between them but they won't be touching if he continues to grow the way he is now.

I agree with the wait and see approach. I do want a dental specialist to check him and give an opinion but I might decide not to do what they suggest if I feel they are just trying to rack up a large bill.

As I've stated several times before, I'm not looking for a cosmetic fix. I would only go forward with corrective action if I had several vets tell me that he will not be able to eat at all without it.

I've got an overwhelming response from folks on here suggesting that I not mess with him at all and your advise is appreciated and being considered. It's nice to hear about so many horses with a similar problem who are fully functioning and have no issues with bits or eating.

Thanks!

[YankeeLawyer]

I would get a second (and possibly a third) professional opinion before deciding what to do. One thing to bear in mind is that you have a limited window of time for some options available to you (e.g. braces), so the "wait and see" approach will foreclose those. So one question I would ask is what options will still be available if, after waiting, the overbite still looks severe and proves to be a problem.

I definitely agree, however, with not taking extreme measures based on one vet's opinion in this situation. I have occasionally been told some off the wall things by vets that turned out to be completely wrong.

[YankeeLawyer]

As I've stated several times before, I'm not looking for a cosmetic fix. I would only go forward with corrective action if I had several vets tell me that he will not be able to eat at all without it.


I am not sure anyone will be able to tell you that, regardless of how severe the problem is, because the fact is that some horses do improve, and some learn to adapt.

Some posters mentioned something about complete feeds (presumably a forage such as Triple Crown Safe Starch) being a possibility for horses that cannot eat grass because of bite issues. I recommend that you look into the cost of these kinds of feeds before considering them a viable alternative. They have been recommended for one of my horses (for different reasons) and I didn't think it was a huge deal until I found out that they can be exorbitantly expensive. I almost keeled over, and I am not one that usually even blinks at my feed and hay bills. It is just something to be aware of, particularly if cost is a consideration in choosing whether to treat the bite or not.

[Rebecca Anderson]

A year ago I was in exactly the same place as you, with a foal with an overbite and the decision of what, if anything to do. Like you, I was looking for a functional, not cosmetic fix. I was concerned about the filly's future as a "flawed horse" and the fact that I couldn't guarantee that she would receive the necessary dental care for the duration of her life (since it is unrealistic to expect that she would be with me for her entire life).

I chose to have the braces and bite plate applied at four months of age. It was a surgery under general anaesthesia, but it is not a particularly invasive surgery. Aftercare involves daily rinsing of the food debris that accumulate (I think someone mentioned a stinky mouth - this happens from rotting food stuck in the braces.)

So all would have been progressing fine if for the fact that the braces broke after 16 days. It was a given that the braces would break before the desired result was acheived. They had warned me ahead of time that with the degree of overbite she had, I could expect at least two, perhaps three surgeries would be needed. However, 16 days was a bit too soon, in my opinion. Even so, I decided to try one more time.

Unfortunately, the second surgery had to be aborted due to intubation problems (excessive nose bleed with nasal intubation). The end result was that the surgeon felt that the benefit of the surgery no longer outweighed the risks of surgery, and we dropped the whole project.

Today I have a lovely yearling filly who has no problems whatsoever grazing despite her severe overbite (which will never get better on it's own now that the upper jaw has dropped over the lower jaw thereby "trapping" the growth of the lower jaw). However, what was a sweet and trusting little foal at the start of the whole ordeal is now an bad tempered mistrusting yearling who is just as likely to bite or kick in defense as she is to be friendly. That was on the whole a very bad experience for a young impressionable foal.

Would I do it again? I really don't know. If it had gone as it should have then I think it perhaps would have been the right thing to do, but there is no guarantee that there will not be complications or difficulties. And probably not all foals would react as badly to the situation as my filly did. That was also due to her very sensitive temperament. I am sorry that I put her through it, and it is taking her a very long time to trust people again. I doubt she will every be completely over the experience.

So that is my experience, for what it is worth. But if you decide to do something, you do not have a lot of time to get started. The ideal time is apparently between four and six months of age for a good result.

[jcotton]

I had a foal from my stallion that was parrot mouthed. the owners decided to do the braces and mouth plate. His lower jaw did catch up some. He is a very easy keeper, he has no problems with weight management.

Another friend of mine had a horse with no upper front teeth because as a yearling he ripped out his juvenile teeth and damaged the permanent teeth so that they did not come in. That did not keep him from maintaining his weight.

It is amazing how animals adjust to ab-normal things much better than people. They are so more forgiving than we are. We can learn a lot from them.

[pintofoal]

Aftercare involves daily rinsing of the food debris that accumulate (I think someone mentioned a stinky mouth - this happens from rotting food stuck in the braces.)

Oh we rinsed and rinsed and you could not get all the rotting food and FLESH/gums removed, it was barbaric, maybe yours was different, ours was done over 10 years ago. Thankfully our filly still trusted us, why I don't know, but I could see any foal not trusting humans after going through that.

By the way you (OP) asked how she is doing now as an adult, I'm not sure how she is now, she was sold as a foal, but I did see her several times later as an adult, she still had a parrot mouth but was a successful children's hunter (she never got very big due to being a twin) and broodmare, never had a problem with weight or bits/bridles, never had a parrot mouthed foal either. I believe she is currently still being used as a broodmare for ponies.

[Showsheen]

mlranchtx-did you know that twisted foal , tail chasing syndrome is a result of parrot mouth?:winkgrin:
Cute baby! Enjoy! I AM JEALOUS!!!:D

[Dressage_Diva333]

Parrot mouths don't bother me a whole lot if they are mild.

I had a colt (a year and half years old), break his jaw, and have to have it wired back together, after that he developed a parrot mouth (he did have it when he was first born, then for some reason it went away, then after he broke his jaw, it returned).

My opinion is don't do corrective surgery/braces.

There are things you can do, like feeding the horse out of a bucket on the ground, so that the horse is in the natural grazing position, and (at least according the the equine dentist I talked to) that can help some young horses with parrot mouths. I don't think it poses that much of a problem unless it is VERY pronounced. Do you have pictures?

[Foxtrot's]

Meredith sent me this link:
www.perfequinedentistry.com
Check it out.

[Dalemma]

I bought a 9 month old filly and she had a parrot mouth.....she is 6 and no longer has a parrot mouth......I think it disappeared by the time she was 18 to 2 years.....I would wait it out a bit and see what happens.

Dalemma

[Rebecca Anderson]

Once the maxilla deviates downward, producing the classic parrot mouth, there is little chance that it is going to self correct because the upper incisors will entrap the lower incisors and restrict the forward growth of the lower jaw.