Do USEF judges have a ultimate authority?

[dsgshowmom]

Seeing how our actual (US) judicial system works.... if you had an issue with how a judge performs or lets say a "panel" of "r" judges works can you make an appeal to a "supreme court of the USEF" or go through some judicial process?

Just a question. :winkgrin:

[slc2]

I think it depends on the problem. If one felt they should have gotten a higher score I think the judge's score is the final word on that test, that day. Otherwise someone can register a complaint but there is a fee for doing so.

[hoopoe]

a judges decision is final. It is spelled out in the rules

You do have the right to file a judges evaluation form at any show ( good or bad reviews) For gross misconduct you contact the TD and possibly file a protest

[ec412]

I just finished my survey and quite honestly, I believe we need to institute a survey of our judges. They may get a few sour grapes, just like we get the crabby judge who had a bad day, or does not like our horses breed etc.

We fill out surveys of our competitions, the footing, why not the judges? If a particular judge is getting poor marks from competitors across the country because they are not contructive, but just plain abusive, should they not eventually be removed?

I think this should be implemented along with the performance standards.

[yaya]

There always has been a form for that. It's called the Confidential Evaluation of Judges, Stewards, TDs, etc. It is required to be available at every licensed show. All you have to do is go to the Secretary's Office for one, or print it out at home.

Here it is: http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/LicOffEvaluation.pdf

Has to be completed and signed by a Federation member, and returned within 10 days of the show.

[slc2]

I like to see judges going to judge seminars and getting education, and getting talked to by other more senior judges as the larger percentage of their 'evaluation'. I wouldn't mind if people passed around some informal 'polls' on the internet, in fact they probably already do, at least have a 'JudgeGossipNet' out there running judges down, but I don't want competitors to have the complete power to 'shut up' judges who aren't giving them the scores they want.

I'm one who actually feels that competitor evaluation of judges would be highly weighted by the resentful competitor who doesn't accept deserved scores. In part because the people who fill out the evaluations are largely going to be the angry ones. The nature of evaluations is that those who are satisfied and don't have an axe to grind are not filling out as many surveys - they are just under-represented in the results.

I would really not like it if competitors were the sole or even a sizeable percentage of the judge of judges. I think that possibility would be a very, very negative thing.

I think that the average competitor 'isn't prepared to compete', in the sense that if they get a poor score, they are immediately going to blame the judge having some prejudice or being unfair.

I think the person who says, 'Oh, yes, crooked in the canter lengthening to the right...i get that, my instructor has told me that a million times, damn, I'm going to have to work on that harder', is actually unusual. It is awesome when it does happen and means a person is really getting a lot out of the show experience...but it isn't that common.

Since many people don't work with an instructor or trainer enough, they have no compass when they go in the ring and compete in dressage. Therefore they don't understand the judging and are bound to resent it. And therefore their evaluation of the judge is going to be way off.

[sm]

I'm suprised the form in post 5 doesn't ask for a copy of the test results (score sheet) and a video if possible. Did I miss that?

It would be really hard to even consider coming down against a judge I think without a video or someone like the show mgt in agreement.

You may be better off sending a copy to show mgt as well, and let them evaluate on their own (informally) if they want to ask the judge back.

I always looked at the comments for feedback. I did not care so much about the score. Only once did my trainer/rider scratch a test because the judge was an arse and it was going to bring our overall year end score down had we shown in front of him for the second test that day (the horse put in a very good test but was falsely marked down).

Still, and especially if you're paying $600-$800 to attend a show, you ALWAYS deserve professional quality feedback.

[mp]

I think that the average competitor 'isn't prepared to compete', in the sense that if they get a poor score, they are immediately going to blame the judge having some prejudice or being unfair.

I think the person who says, 'Oh, yes, crooked in the canter lengthening to the right...i get that, my instructor has told me that a million times, damn, I'm going to have to work on that harder', is actually unusual. It is awesome when it does happen and means a person is really getting a lot out of the show experience...but it isn't that common.

Since many people don't work with an instructor or trainer enough, they have no compass when they go in the ring and compete in dressage. Therefore they don't understand the judging and are bound to resent it.

Does your opinion reflect the crappy riding in your particular area? Or your experience over many many many many years of showing and boarding at scores of barns?

Because I don't know any riders who compete in recognized shows, yet don't have Clue 1 about the quality of their riding. I'm sure these riders exist, but there aren't "many" of them. At least not around here. Either that, or they keep their mouths shut around me. I have a "no whining" rule.

OP, did you have something in particular you wanted to "appeal"?

[DownYonder]

It would be really hard to even consider coming down against a judge I think without a video or someone like the show mgt in agreement.

Agree, but one would hope USEF would take notice if it got back a few dozen negative evaluations for the same judge. But then again, it's USEF... :lol:

[dsgshowmom]

OP, did you have something in particular you wanted to "appeal"?


No...... nothing in particualar. However, I had a conversation with a young adult today that made me very sad. :(

She told me that she doesn't want to show anymore because she rides an Arabian, and no matter how many lessons, clinics she rides in, her scores at recognized shows do not reflect the time and effort she has put in.

Now this is a young lady who really can ride well, and rides that arabian for all he is worth, but it does appear (to her and to others who are very familiar with the situation) that she consistently gets scores in the low 50's all the time at 2nd level with no hope of ever getting higher.

Sure, the horse is not fancy, but really, this is a young woman who puts all her money towards the horse and training. She can barely pay to go to a show, and when she does she gets crappy scores. So..... its not fun, nor a positive experience. I can't say I blame her.

Another person who was part of the conversation said "Well, if the USDF is trying to discourage people, they are really doing a good job at it." Meaning, of course, the bread and butter (training level - 2nd level riders) of the sport seem to be getting very discouraged with the judging.

But, mp, I personally do not have an issue with any particular judge.

[mp]

She told me that she doesn't want to show anymore because she rides an Arabian, and no matter how many lessons, clinics she rides in, her scores at recognized shows do not reflect the time and effort she has put in.

Now this is a young lady who really can ride well, and rides that arabian for all he is worth, but it does appear (to her and to others who are very familiar with the situation) that she consistently gets scores in the low 50's all the time at 2nd level with no hope of ever getting higher.

Scores don't reflect the time and effort expended. You're scored on your ride. Period. She may well be working hard and riding the horse "for all he is worth" but consistent scores in the 50s mean either she or her horse aren't up to 2nd level work.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but if she's looking for a fun, positive experience, she needs to adjust her expectations and move down a level or change disciplines.

[slc2]

"her scores at recognized shows do not reflect the time and effort she has put in"

there is no reward for effort or time. there's a reward for fulfilling the requirements of the tests.

i don't understand why so many people, if they get consistently bad scores, come to the conclusion that that has to be the judge's fault.

[dsgshowmom]

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but if she's looking for a fun, positive experience, she needs to adjust her expectations and move down a level or change disciplines.


Well, thats what she is doing, she has come to the conclusion that with what she has for a horse she will never score out of the low 50's. So, instead of making the upgrade to a new horse (which she can't really afford) she is going to start doing more "fun" things like trail riding and such. Can't say I blame her. But if everyone that owns an Arab feels like they will never get anywhere in dressage, do you really expect them to continue showing?

SLC, you are too obnoxious to bother replying too.

[mickeydoodle]

It is not necessarily "arabian" that is the problem- I have scribed for many judges who have no breed prejudice. At second level most any horse can score will if- and this is a big if- the test is ridden correctly, they have the correct collection impulsion, bend, etc. for the level, and fulfill all of the basic requirements. Consistently scoring in the 50's more often reflects the collection, the accuracy, the bend, the acceptance of the aids etc, rather than breed predjudice. If I were her I would not make the assumption that the scores are the only ones the horse will ever get, I would look long and hard at my riding, at the bend, the impulsion, the collection, the accuracy, etc before I would chalk all those 50's up to bad judging.

I scribed a show this past weekend (large CDI) where an arab won all of the FEI junior tests(Prix St. Geo. level)- because the training and riding were correct for the level.

[mp]

Well, thats what she is doing, she has come to the conclusion that with what she has for a horse she will never score out of the low 50's. So, instead of making the upgrade to a new horse (which she can't really afford) she is going to start doing more "fun" things like trail riding and such. Can't say I blame her. But if everyone that owns an Arab feels like they will never get anywhere in dressage, do you really expect them to continue showing?

You're whining to the wrong person about breed prejudice. :lol:

I ride an Arab, and we went to our first recognized show last month. While I wouldn't say it was an unqualified disaster, it didn't go as well as I'd hoped. Not because the judge was mean or she hated Arabians. But because 1) I hadn't shown my horse in two years, 2) we weren't quite ready for that test and 3) it was 45 degrees and the wind was blowing 40 mph. I went in knowing we'd score lower because of #1 and #2; but #3 was the real deal breaker. Shoot, I was proud that I even got ON my little beast -- his eyes were about popping out of his cute little head. :eek:

But ... we got through it. And, yes, I plan on showing in dressage again. At the end of this month, actually. I don't have money to burn, but I've learned more from the 2+ years I've been messing around with dressage than I did in the 10 years of breed show stuff I did.

Dressage isn't for everyone. Maybe if your young friend takes some time off, she'll want to come back to it when she's ready. But right now, I can almost guarantee you that she's getting low scores because of how she's riding, not what she's riding.

[slc2]

Well, dgshowmom, I have a lot of faith in most of the dressage judges. In fact, I think most of the dressage judges are excellent, very fair, very even handed, not full of biases and pet peeves and favorite breeds, or having a list of people they give higher scores to for no reason.

You don't think so. I don't say you're obnoxious.

[sm]

She told me that she doesn't want to show anymore because she rides an Arabian, and no matter how many lessons, clinics she rides in, her scores at recognized shows do not reflect the time and effort she has put in.

Now this is a young lady who really can ride well, and rides that arabian for all he is worth, but it does appear (to her and to others who are very familiar with the situation) that she consistently gets scores in the low 50's all the time at 2nd level with no hope of ever getting higher.

Sure, the horse is not fancy, but really, this is a young woman who puts all her money towards the horse and training. She can barely pay to go to a show, and when she does she gets crappy scores. So..... its not fun, nor a positive experience. I can't say I blame her.


I feel her pain. There's a few things she needs to be aware of:

- dressage marks are for the horse. Your friend can see a rider bounce-jab-bounce but as long as it doesn't interrupt the horse the ugly riding will be dismissed and that rider may score higher than your firend who is riding elegantly and more correctly. Dressage is not an equitation test.

- any arab, like any throughbred, is not going to win on the extravagent gaits. WBs often have this advantage at the outset --but they CAN and DO lose that advantage during a test. This is what your friend needs to understand. She would have to work with a trainer, perferably a trainer who is also a judge, to see where to concentrate and channel her efforts.

- your friend will have to throw out the "current party line" and examine what good gaits are. Why something happens. Why -- the purpose -- of the training scale and understand the underlying gymnastic development of the horse.

- that is my most important point. From there you can read a judge's marks and sort the wheat from the chaff. If you truly understand a test you can put it in a healthy perspective. More importantly, you can see dressage is constantly evolving: what is rewarded today with the top scores may not be classically correct.

I greatly respect the Lippazanners: they know their worth, they know "who they are." I think they illustrate my last point beautifully.

Meanwhile, maybe a local judge, during a training session, can size things up and help her channel her efforts.

[Ajierene]

I can understand slc2's concerns about surveys and competitors being the final word on penalizing judges. Personally, I think this can be solved with location and breed markers. If a judges gets a bad survey every once in a while (and more likely than not, the dissatisfied competitors will take the time to fill out a survey while the satisfied ones will not) then it should be dismissed. It should be kept in a record, but not held against them. If they are getting more surveys, location and breed markers can be used to determine if a particular barn or area has something against the judge or if a breed is highlighted. While I prefer surveys in this respect not to be anonymous - many people balk at that.

In this way, a bunch of surveys coming from the same area, same breed - likely the same person. A delegate can be sent out just to be sure that this is the case. If it is, then these can be written off as a disgruntled competitor.

It is not hard to make a computer program that can sort surveys.

As far as the concerns of this person - she should look at her tests and see the similarities. My test, I get three basic comments just about every test: Cute Mare (always makes my day), Does not track up enough (Nope, she doesn't have that dressage action-she just doesn't have it) Not rounding up enough. This last one is the one to work on - It will help with the second comment as well.

What are my problems? I get nervous at shows and don't ride the test at the show like I do at home. She gets a bit nervous and doesn't round up as well.

After 6 years of competing in eventing and dressage shows - still working on it. While this is not the 'standard' - the girl needs to understand that 1: her horse may not have the confirmation to score higher and 2: if she is not looking at the test and wondering what she can do to make the scores higher-reading the comments and seeing where she needs work, she will never score higher.

As suggested before, having lessons with a trainer that is also a judge might help. Bringing the dressage tests to her trainer or to a clinic would help also. If she is not doing that, then she will never get better.