Sort of turned into a critique

[RockingN]

My original question was whats the difference between a hunter bred colt and a dressage bred colt, but now i've posted toward the bottom of this page pictures/videos of my colt and I was wondering what you guys thought of him

[J-Lu]

IM limited O, movement and conformation.

Movement: ground-covering stride without much knee action (i.e. straighter knees, efficient movement). Quality canter with hind legs naturally coming under.

Conformation: neck set that comes nicely out of the withers, lower tie-in point, more horizontal balance than uphill. Sloping shoulders, not too short-coupled, hind-end build to support a nice, balanced jump.

But several dressage-bred horses do well in the hunters, and vice versa. For example, the Sandro line has produced both.

[RockingN]

so a colt that does well or doesnt do well in hunter breeding will have the same results at a dressage breed show?

[J-Lu]

Strictly speaking in an in-hand breed show? Are you talking Devon or a local breed show? I'm guessing that hunter breeding and sport horse breeding are looking for two different types based on conformation and movement (plus I *think* the horses are trained and presented differently for each class). However, a well-conformed (without a high-set neck) and nice moving (but not extravagant) horse is a well-conformed nice moving horse. I can envision the type of horse that might do well in both at a local breed show, but in stiff competition it probably would not be very common. ???

[RockingN]

Like local USEF hunter shows compared to a USDF sport breed show.

Just wondering because me colt does.. okay... (been to two shows and he keeps getting beat by the same horse) in the hunter breeding shows, the breeders i got him from always say its because he's bred for dressage and when i take him to the USDF shows he'll do much better then he ever will in hunter classes. And i was just wondering.. what the heck is the difference? They say its because his trot is too "floaty" and not flat-kneed like a hunter.

I never understand though lol

[RockingN]

yea in hand breed shows! hes a yearling lol

[J-Lu]

Well, if he's got a floaty trot and some knee action, give a sport horse breed show a whirl! Why not?! you just have to learn how to RUN with your horse! What's his breeding?

Here's and example of the difference:

Movement and look of some well-bred hunters on the line:

http://www.darkhorsefarm.com/intheribbons_line.html

Movement and look of some well-bred dressage 1-4 year olds on the line:
http://www.canaanranch.net/news.htm

look at the difference in the loft of the gait, the suspension and how the horse is "stood".

[facinated]

I think that the two types are getting closer together. My horse won stallion classes at D.A.D. and he is being used by many of the leading hunter breeders. He is as J-LU mentioned from the Sandro line. I would think that it would be calmness which would allow a "dresage bred" horse to excell in the hunter performance classes, as they require low energy briliance.

[Horsecrazy27]

I have only had a few horses do well in the hunter breeding. (My three that did well, were out of my Irish Hunter mare and 3 different stalions.) When I place behind here is the descript of the horses that I have entered:

Higher neck set, super strong top lines, lots of setting on their hocks and lifting their front ends up, lots of bend/action in their hocks, round big knee movement and they like to collect. My horses tend to have more bend in their hock when standing. I noticed a straighter hind leg in many of the HB horses....I think that kinda gives them that straighter fore leg that they like in the movement.

What beats us: level neck sets with their necks streched out, (nice top lines, but different), straighter hock/hind end, flater movement with their front ends and sometimes to me, they look like they are on their front end when trotting, really nice horses with nice conformation, but just different than mine.

I breed for dressage horses, although, I am thinking of breeding a couple of hunters because that is what is here in AZ (show wise). I don't have any local shows to take my dressage babys to anymore. That is part of the fun of breeding, is taking them places to be seen! :)

[Foxtrot's]

I'm out of my depth on this one - but are you saying the hunter are getting closer to the dressage horse in movement? The hunters are accepting more knee action, more circular movement, and getting away from the daisy clipper? There is a world of difference in how they are ridden, but I thought I always had a clear idea of the difference in the movement, the ride, the type, the head carriage.

[RockingN]

Yes, my colt has Sandro in him but is is by Sempatico and out of a mare who is by art deco.
Here is a video of my colt at a hunter show (mind you it was his first one so he's not as well behaved as I would have hoped but he is still very good. But he didn't want to stretch out) It starts from his walk from the barn to the handler then to the ring. Its kind of blurry so you may or may not be able to see his movement in the ring. People at the show told me he was just beautiful but he moved too floaty for the hunter breeding. However since the dressage breed shows aren't until July where I live, I wanted to get him some good expierence before I took him to the ones in July.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5G6eN_yXEOI

Pictures
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/BayBGirl/Shiloh55.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/BayBGirl/Riotshow.jpg

[Classicgal]

I am not a breeder or anything but I have always wondered about this and found a good web site that explained alot to me. It is called JWEquine.com.

[facinated]

I'm out of my depth on this one - but are you saying the hunter are getting closer to the dressage horse in movement? The hunters are accepting more knee action, more circular movement, and getting away from the daisy clipper? There is a world of difference in how they are ridden, but I thought I always had a clear idea of the difference in the movement, the ride, the type, the head carriage.

I find that when I jog my horse for hunter people slow and lazy they say wow. and breed to him. For event, or dressage folks I run with him and the bigger movement comes out. As I said, Show hunters is low energy. Everything just has to go in the right place.

[RockingN]

Does anyone have any thoughts about my colt? Do you see any faults? Pros and Cons about him?

[veezee]

I thought he looked beautiful and he'll be able to do anything. No matter what you decide to do with him-hunters or dressage- it will be best to start him with a good dressage foundation. Have fun with your beautiful colt :)

[Ajierene]

He is a very cute colt and a nice mover. He looked like he had a bit more lift to his gait than the other horse, but his head is a bit high. The headset is probably what is pushing you down in the ribbons, but it has been a few years since I traveled the hunter circuit.

In my experience, it has been less about the confirmation (though confirmation still has an effect) of the horse, but the natural movement that will make it win a young hunter or dressage show. Hunters tend to like a flatter, smoother action that looks like they can go comfortable all day. They like some action to show the horse can pick their feet up, but not as much as a dressage horse.

Once you get on the horse, it is a different story - you can make a hunter into more of a dressage horse and make a dressage horse into a hunter. It is harder to make a hunter more of a dressage horse than a dressage horse into a hunter.

Ask a dressage horse to relax a bit - and they are in a hunter frame and movement. Push a horse up to get it from hunter to dressage and some will never really pick their knees up as much.

[Rival]

I would work on finding the speed that shows him off the best. You had approximately 10 seconds to show off your horses gaits and quite frankly I found it lack luster not because of the horse but because the handling didn't show him off. My suggestion would be to try videoing him at home at different speeds.

[RockingN]

Thanks Ajierene! You have really good input.


Rival I think you have a really good point. In the video he's being handled by a handler (not me). I agree. Maybe I should tell the handlers to trot him at a faster pace?

[eyesontheground]

I do not really have a comment other than I love the fact that the video is all paparazzi following the celeb style. :winkgrin: I can see the headlines now...Sexy leading man barely escapes run in with water truck! :eek:

[RockingN]

LOL eyesontheground! You just made me laugh sooo hard! LOL its so true!!!! Thats funny because after that show on our way home the interstate was shut down for 3 hours and random people were taking pictures of him and stuff! LOL talk about paparazzi

[bornfreenowexpensive]

so a colt that does well or doesnt do well in hunter breeding will have the same results at a dressage breed show?


I know of one filly who did extremely well at both Dressage at Devon breed show (won her age group one year in good ribbons other years--both in hand and undersaddle) and at hunter/jumper breed show at Devon (hunter classes ---conformation and undersaddle) got top ribbons in tough competition.

So my answer is it depends on the horse! can't see your boy here at work but looks like others will give you good input.

[slc2]

For many years a hunter was supposed to be a 'daisy cutter'. The chief hunter breed was Thoroughbred, and the horses chosen had very low movement.

Nowadays, I see a lot of warmbloods in the hunter classes. But people are STILL selecting warmbloods with very low movement that don't lift their knees. When you go to web sites selling hunters in Europe they are always a very different yype of mover than the ones on the dressage web pages.

The video is too shakey and too blurry to show the horse off to his best, I wouldn't use it as a sale video. It's a gorgeous horse and could score really well.

The horse needs to be taught to really move - to walk with a real active, marching, swinging gait that is very much more forward. When standing, the horse isn't positioned properly - his forelegs slant back too much under his body. This makes him look heavy on the forehand, and his hind legs spread out behind him which makes him look weak in the topline and not properly conformed behind. He HAS to walk faster - really swinging and reaching, with activity. He also has to trot much more actively, with his head up with more freedom.

[RockingN]

okay so I need to practice walking more actively with him? And practing his stance as well
Maybe you have some ideas to improve that?

Also, he's not for sale, im just taking him to shows for expirience, and I videoed him just to have it when he gets old and i reminisce lol. But i'd love to hear some ideas to make him better!

[slc2]

make the walk active, quick, swinging. The trot should be something that almost gives you a heart attack trying to keep up with him. The sport horse handlers wear running shoes, and they really run with the horses. Even with the warmblood pony in hand classes, those guys would pass John Walker.

[RockingN]

LOL okay so my next handler i need to make sure they really run and walk fast! Thank you so much for you're help! What do you think about him conformation wise? LS placement?

[mbm]

i would think the biggest difference between a dressage horse and a hunter would be elasticity, athleticism and usage of the back (swinging back).

but of course, dressage is for every horse and every horse can benefit from it and be made more beutiful.

i like Riot a lot and i love his name!

i think the handler seemed to make him go very slow which didnt seem to show his gaits off very well. of course what do i know? i know zilch about hunters ! :)

[slc2]

excuse me if i've gone completely senile. i thiought you were asking about showing in sport horse classes. that's where they do the 4 min mile. :lol:

[J-Lu]

okay so I need to practice walking more actively with him? And practing his stance as well
Maybe you have some ideas to improve that?

Also, he's not for sale, im just taking him to shows for expirience, and I videoed him just to have it when he gets old and i reminisce lol. But i'd love to hear some ideas to make him better!

For sport horse in hand, I think alot of your success comes from your training and conditioning prior to the show. You need to stand near his shoulder and work on teaching him to go forward with your legs. He should learn to go forward with you as you step forward (actively forward with you) and stop when you stop. He doesn't need to be perfect because he's young, but he should be paying attention to you. Having a second person behind the horse encouraging him to move-off when you move-off can really help. Teaching this can be fun and really lets you spend time with your horse. At the trot, you need to teach him to follow your front legs with his front legs. This means YOU need to run with LONG, LOFTY steps. This takes time for them to learn. But when he learns this, he'll try to match his stride with your stride, so you can open him up at the right time and slow him down without getting in his face. He should always move at a rate that you stay at his shoulder - not with you near his head or out in front of him. As you can see, you need to be in very good shape to run the horse in sport horse classes...but it is fun! :)

[Horsecrazy27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45fxx_lruAU
This is my 3 year old (Pablo X Fiener Stern X First Class X Zeus), he is really butt high in this video, but still pretty balanced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNCx8jGrjBk
This is my 4 year old---well, not mine anymore. He was getting started and only a short time under saddle...also was pretty butt high at the time. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAxsBRhnVgY
This is my baby......he is perfect. :) I'm partial and probably blind--but he is perfect to me!