What exactly do you look for in a young "dressage prospect"?

[mtngirl]

I have been fortunate in the past to have had some wonderful horses to learn from. The knowledge I have gained has been invaluable, but, there were not bred, nor did they have the talent to be truly competitive in dressage. Now the time has come to start looking for a young "dressage prospect". I'm not talking FEI/international caliber here...we're talking about something that will be fairly competitive regionally...with the hopes of making it to PSG/Intermediare. Budget restraints will probably limit the search to youngsters not yet under saddle. I have competed and volunteered at many recognized shows, gone to the World Cup in Las Vegas and drooled over what I have seen, and in general thought I had developed a pretty good eye. But now that it's actually time to look for a future dressage partner, I find myself questioning my own judgement at what I'm seeing.

So...what do you look for in a "dressage prospect"? What is there about a youngster (a weanling or yearling for example) that makes you think they may have the potential for PSG or Intermediare work vs topping out at say 3rd level? Is it mostly movement? Breeding? What physical traits do you look for in particular? I'm not a professional, though I will be consulting with my trainer, but in looking at all the different ads and websites, it has suddenly become quite a daunting venture (although also an exciting one). If one were to go by the ads and websites, almost all the youngsters I've looked at would fall into that "upper level prospect" category. It is a selling catch phrase that you see on almost anything other than a working cow horse or gaited horse. :no: What are some things that you look for to help sort through it all?

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

I am in your shoes too at the moment, and I have been searching in my price range for the best possbile prospect. To narrow the search, I looked for babies with bloodlines to die for. I also tried to limit myself to warmblood breeding on both sides, not something out of a TB mare. I also looked for certain things I have found in both my own horses and also from speaking with upper level riders/trainers -- nicely set on neck, good length of leg, well-coupled (not too short, not too long), and the filly I finally picked, I LOVED her dam, conformation and disposition. That really made the decision for me.

But, I am also not a professional, so take this post for what it is, my experience and JMHO!

[STF]

If I were looking for a young non proven prospect, Id (and this is ME... not anyone but ME)...

Id first look for bloodlines in a young horse or look up those breeders who I already know breed top dressage lines. Not a sure fire way of sucess, but def. improves the odds when your breeding generations of proven and noted ability.

What it comes down to for me is movement and brain. Those two are a do-all in this industry, IMO. You have to have elastic and supplemovements with a brain that can retain, be willing and learn.

Good luck, I HATE horse shopping!


Word of mouth is better than most anything, but you get a lot of dead ends. Send out and email to some of the bigger breeders with proven lines, tell them your bottom price and ask them if they dont have anything to send it on. You will find that most of the breeders and trainers are tightly networked.

What I have learned is that conformation is imprortant but not everything. I recently had a mare here thats conformation was less than good but she could move better than anything I had ever seen before. I mean EYE popping good. So, dont go off a picture on a website or ad. Always ask for a video. A picture can be deceiving. With that said, dont go to much into bad conformation as it may lead to lameness issues down the road, mostly when you start asking for collective work. Keep that in mind.

[pines4equines]

I really have no business responding to this thread. I'm the one trying to find cheap horses to ride.

Here's my two cents. I ask to have the horse turned out, then I ask to see him trot. If he throws his head in the air to trot, hollows his back, then I don't want him. If he rounds up naturally, tucks his chin, pulls his hind end under him naturally, then I take him.

But again, the bloodlines on the things I'm getting are not worth putting on paper.

[STF]

LMAO

[WindsongEq]

I look at conformation , movement, bloodlines, temperament.
If his father and grandfather were GP horses, and his cousins and half brothers or sisters also competing GP... Mine is probably built to do it too!

[BC5098]

I breed dressage horses - and am only interested in ones that can go all the way. This is what I look for - must move well, all three gaits, good canter and correct walk, inadditon to big trot. Must have correct conformation ( and be built uphill), soundness issues are a real problem. And must have the temperament to put up with the repetative training.

Of the two parents - the mother is more important to me than the father. I look for mares that have themselves competed at the upper levels - or clearly have the ability to go all the way, but are used for breeding. Many breeders use bred young mares before putting them into sport - or embryo transfer. Mares mustcome from families that have produced international level dressage horses.

Bloodlines are important - but look at the entire picture. Either the mare or the stallion should have some jumper blood. The upper level movements require a great deal of strength in the hindquarters - the push off the ground for passage is similar to the push off the ground for jumping.

TB blood is also good. It adds elegance, canter and hotness. Hot is a necessary element of an upper level horse. If they are not hot to begin with - you have to make them hot - or you have no brilliance. Fine line between brilliance and unrideable.

[STF]

TB blood is also good. It adds elegance, canter and hotness.

I too, like a little lighter/more forward type and love a good TB mix, but they are hard to come by. Good TB's for the crosses, I mean....

[hansiska]

I breed Hanoverians and I agree with those who've said temperament and movement are most important in a young prospect. I'd put temperament first for a lower level horse and/or amateur rider. I'm not convinced that BOTH parents have to have gone GP; it just doesn't end up happening for both dam and sire in many cases. What you can look at are performance test results and the results of other offspring. If you buy from a breeder you can often see full siblings, which is fun and which gives you a pretty good indication of what you might get.

Educate yourself as much as you can. Talk to many different breeders and owners. Go to shows (dressage as well as breed shows) and inspections. Look at horses and try to get familiar with different bloodlines. If you like the horse, ask the owner/ rider about it (including where they got it!). You'll likely start to notice a trend in your own tastes, at least in terms of bloodlines or registries.

From there you can start to look for breeders who stand stallions or breed horses with the bloodlines you like or of your registry of choice. Go visit them. Talk to others who have purchased from them.

Remember that the more time you take, the more educated you'll be, and the more money you'll have saved up! If you're unsure of what to look for, hire or bring someone experienced in looking at babies to help you out.

A few ways to save money:
**Buy local -- shipping, especially international shipping, can add a substantial amount to your price, what with today's gas prices.
**Buy in-utero -- often there are great deals to be had, especially if you don't care about gender or color. This is a good choice if you can see full siblings (and like them) or if the foal is a combination of bloodlines that you really like.
**Buy young, but not necessarily a foal -- yearlings or two year olds are often good deals (don't have the cute foal factor, but they're that much closer to backing).
**Don't necessarily buy a foal by this year's "hot" stallion (you probably don't want to do this anyway; proven is better). Sometimes it adds to the price. On the other hand, if lots of breeders choose that stallion, prices can be driven down.
**Choose a chestnut -- sadly, lots of great chestnut babies are overlooked right now and blacks are "flying off the shelves" -- (call it the Salinero factor) if you buck this trend you may be able to save yourself some money [Sorry if this is a controversial statement, but I do watch what other breeders in my registry have and what gets sold and I wouldn't say it if I didn't think it was true.]
**Buy in late fall or winter -- some breeders try to cut down on their numbers going into winter, thinking that horses with the fuzzies won't sell. Some offer young horses at good discounts on the assumption that they'll lose what they're taking off the sale price in keeping the horse through the winter.
**Don't know how tall you are, but sometimes young horses on the small side are more difficult for breeders to sell. If you're closer to 5' and this isn't a concern for you, you may be able to make it work to your advantage.
**Do your homework!

Lastly, have fun -- or at least try to! I just went horse shopping myself and BOY was it an eye-opener. Take your time, save your pennies, and enjoy it. Good luck shopping!

Kendra

[HSS]

I just have to say, as a small time breeder and an FEI rider, that the advice given here is some of the most sensible advice I've ever seen in any on-line forum.

In both buying and breeding, I've followed most of it, and been happily rewarded.

For instance, I purchased a chestnut filly(!!) from a local breeder, and have been so unbelievably happy with her that I bred my X-GP mare to their stallion, which led to yet another fantastic chestnut filly that I can't wait to sit on.

I don't understand why chestnuts have such a bad rap. They don't show dirt, they don't care about the sun, and they are the best mares you could ever ever enjoy. Think Brentina.

Some stallions are really pre-potent, and almost any offspring of theirs is a nice prospect. the one I am speaking of in particular is known for producing a wonderful mind (yes!!) and that is just the best reward for a rider.

I've sent my Friends over to their breeding farm when they were looking for young prospects- because a horse with a friendly easy going temperament is just a joy to own and ride. So, take the time to visit your local breeders, see the offspring, and learn about their programs. Also, it makes sense to visit the approvals as well- that way you can be exposed to many small breeders with one wonderful mare- and often you can find that exceptionally lovely youngster at a great price.

there have been TB mares at some approvals I've attended that I would give my right arm for.......

Mostly, if you are gong to buy a horse under the age of 4, you really need to educate your eye so that you can see what the mature horse will look like even tho the one in front of you is butt high and can't move at all.....that's what most horses look like from 1-3 years of age....those are the diamonds in the rough that can be the horse of a lifetime if you can just see the quality.

Remember, the horse's personality wont' change with age- if the foal or youngster is friendly, trusting, and interactive, so will be the horse. That's a trainable personality, because it wants to interact with people.

the one caveat I might add here is that on the largest breeding farms, I've often noticed that the horses you see are sort of "leftovers", because the very best ones were snapped up at birth......so I've had better luck with smaller local breeding farms.

[mtngirl]

Thanks everyone, the advice you have given is exactly what I was looking for!

Many of you mentioned breeding, looking at the parents, siblings etc. What would you think of say, a youngster by a realtively unknown stallion, but whose grandsire was a succesful GP horse, and whose dam has produced two GP horses, but the dam didn't compete herself? Or a not so well known stallion who has produced two approved stallion sons by the same mare and another son is available? (Stallion was not widely bred nor competed, and the son currently available would not be kept a stallion by me.)

Or, another scenario altogether...an unconventional crossbred horse, that seems to have a superior mind and movement that drops your jaw? With the biggest plus being a puppy dog, "I'll try and do anything you want" type attitude?

hansiska: I am not limiting myself to any one particular breed, gender or color. But I too, have seen the so called "black" vs "chestnut" factor. I can't say that I understand it, as to me, the color really doesn't matter :confused:. Your suggestions give me a lot to think about. :yes:

[hansiska]

What would you think of say, a youngster by a realtively unknown stallion, but whose grandsire was a succesful GP horse, and whose dam has produced two GP horses, but the dam didn't compete herself? Or a not so well known stallion who has produced two approved stallion sons by the same mare and another son is available? (Stallion was not widely bred nor competed, and the son currently available would not be kept a stallion by me.)
I'd say that it depends on the horses involved. Breeding, as they say, is a crapshoot. Two relatively unknown or unproven parents can produce a phenomenal foal, but they can also produce one that's average. The same goes for two very proven parents. I happen to think that the deck is stacked in your favor in the latter case, but then I'm not the gambling type. Sometimes stallions aren't marketed well and they're underused. It doesn't mean they're poor quality. Sometimes stallions are marketed or talked about relentlessly, leading to a false confidence in their ability to produce; people begin to think that everything by stallion X is wonderful, but in reality, in terms of genetics, that's not possible, is it? The bottom line is you have to look at what they produce. You have to evaluate the individual you're considering buying.
hansiska: I am not limiting myself to any one particular breed, gender or color. But I too, have seen the so called "black" vs "chestnut" factor. I can't say that I understand it, as to me, the color really doesn't matter :confused:. Your suggestions give me a lot to think about. :yes:
Thanks! I woke up this morning worried that I was going to get flamed for saying that. I absolutely adore my carmel-colored chestnut mare, by the way. By not limiting yourself to gender or color, you keep yourself open to all possibilities, which is always good!

[YankeeLawyer]

Many of you mentioned breeding, looking at the parents, siblings etc. What would you think of say, a youngster by a realtively unknown stallion, but whose grandsire was a succesful GP horse, and whose dam has produced two GP horses, but the dam didn't compete herself? Or a not so well known stallion who has produced two approved stallion sons by the same mare and another son is available? (Stallion was not widely bred nor competed, and the son currently available would not be kept a stallion by me.)


If the individual horse for sale met my criteria in terms of movement, temperament, and conformation, and soundness, I would give it serious consideration.



Or, another scenario altogether...an unconventional crossbred horse, that seems to have a superior mind and movement that drops your jaw? With the biggest plus being a puppy dog, "I'll try and do anything you want" type attitude?

Ditto the above -- assuming we are talking about a riding horse prospect. My breeding horse criteria is different, personally, because I primarily focus on Hanoverians with particular lines.

Don't forget that bloodlines are only a predicter of quality / success. The product of those lines -- what you see in front of you -- has to be determinative, ultimately. Thus, I would not buy a less than stellar individual regardless of the bloodlines, and conversely, (for a riding horse), if confronted with an individual with excellent movement, conformation, temperament, and soundness, I would not be bothered if it didn't have a fancy pedigree, or had a somewhat unusual pedigree. But I have been picking my own horses for a long time and I know what I am doing, it least in terms of picking horses suitable for my program. I either have incredibly dumb luck or a good eye (or maybe a bit of both), but I have managed to get some really nice horses. : ).

Color is irrelevant to me. I think it is ridiculous that people get hung up on that; a good horse is any color. For a dressage competition horse, I do think it is important that the horse be handsome and have a presence or X factor about them, but to me that does not depend on a precise color.


There is a helpful video by Hilda Gurney on choosing a young horse prospect. You might consider getting a copy. Also, I have found that some of Scott Hassler's clinics are very helpful as he discusses attributes to look for in a young prospect. He did one in Georgia last year that is available on video. If I can find the contact info for the vid I will post it.

[yankeeclipper]

"Don't know how tall you are, but sometimes young horses on the small side are more difficult for breeders to sell. If you're closer to 5' and this isn't a concern for you, you may be able to make it work to your advantage."

Ditto this. My guy was only 14.2 at 21 months. Nice blood lines, breeder couldgn't understand why he wasn't moving. I didn't want a 17 hand horse. His mature height should finish just around 16 hands with a willingness to learn and sweet, sweet, sweet just like his parents.

"Color is irrelevant to me. I think it is ridiculous that people get hung up on that; a good horse is any color. For a competition horse, I do think it is important that the horse be handsome and have a presence or X factor about them, but to me that does not depend on a precise color."

Agree with this. If you find everything you want in a horse except the color than go for it. I did.

[Leena]

This is what I have been asking myself, especially when I see my youngsters; who is going to be good for dressage, eventing, hunter ?

I agree with movement and temperament, also sensitivity, natural balance, natural suppleness are important. Building uphill helps.

Bloodlines for me is a cherry on the sunday.

[MyReality]

Yearlings always look funny. Foals are always cute.

At this point, you are looking at bloodlines. I would check out full sisters/brothers, and half sister/brothers.

You can't really tell movement and temperament until under saddle. Even a horse on a lunge line, you can get an idea of how he balanced and use himself, especially his back. A baby playing in the paddock... most of them know a few steps of passage and airs above the ground... hard to make anything out of it.

If you want a horse that has a pretty good chance of taking you to PSG, don't buy off breeds. (This is coming from someone who only buy off breeds.) Well, unless you have no money, like me, or a crappy old rider, like me. Go to breeders who specialize in dressage, or sports horse.

I only buy from good breeders, and I am never disappointed. They might also know adult horses, bred by them, that are for sale. Don't buy from huge breeders, and don't buy from backyard breeders... buy from small breeders who know what they are doing.

Good luck!

[not again]

Try to find a prospect with three equal gaits.
Something well-balanced and athletic.
Good natured.
Willing to work.
Successful parents to the level you aspire, or successful siblings and close relatives.
Try to ride a close relative to assess the body type, shape for your leg, and contact with the bit--does it suit your body type and riding style.
Spend time on the ground with your prospect to see if you have any sort of bond or personality issues.
Try not to let anyone talk you in to getting more "heat" or huge gaits in a horse than you are comfortable with.
Good luck and have fun!;)

[mtngirl]

Thanks everyone!

These are exactly the kinds of suggestions I'm needing.

I do realize that each horse must be considered individually...and simply because the bloodlines are there...doesn't necessarily mean the mind and movement are...thus the individual evaluation. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can so when I actually, physically go looking, I won't be automatically falling in love with the first horse I see! I also find it a bit hard to evaluate younger horses (weanlings, gawky yearlings etc) Of course, for me, in the past, it's been more a matter of the horse "picking" me than the other way around!

[not again]

You can check certain conformation points at any age. The horse's elbow should be loose of the rib cage. The shoulder should have a 45 degree angle. The hock angle should be around 150-160 degrees, and set on short cannon bones. All four cannons should be shorter than the forearms and gaskins. The loin connection should be elastic and powerful. The neck should be set well up in the chest, and be triangular from shoulder to throat latch. The throat should be flexible at the poll and the jaw wide enough to allow correct flexion easily.
There are plenty of other conformation points to consider, but these items don't really change from foal to adulthood.

[HSS]

Many of you mentioned breeding, looking at the parents, siblings etc. What would you think of say, a youngster by a realtively unknown stallion, but whose grandsire was a succesful GP horse, and whose dam has produced two GP horses, but the dam didn't compete herself? Or a not so well known stallion who has produced two approved stallion sons by the same mare and another son is available? (Stallion was not widely bred nor competed, and the son currently available would not be kept a stallion by me.)

Or, another scenario altogether...an unconventional crossbred horse, that seems to have a superior mind and movement that drops your jaw? With the biggest plus being a puppy dog, "I'll try and do anything you want" type attitude?

Well, it depends on whether you are considering the horse's value as breeding stock or only a riding horse.

In my opinion, anytime you consider buying a horse which can be bred, you need to consider the horse not only as a saddle prospect but also as a breeding prospect. YOu never know what can happen later on in life, so it's best to think about it when you are buying. Or you will end up like myself, breeding a mare which you never considered breeding, and going through hoops to get her approved by the "right" association so that her offspring are worth something, and sweating the stallions because the mare has many flaws which you need to overcome, and kicking yourself because the mare you are NOT breeding is the one which you bought with breeding in mind, and the foal would unquestionably be far superior. :eek:

Yeah, things change, don't they? That's how life goes.

While I think it's important to breed to a stallion which has a record, to me it's more inportant to evalute the stallion's breeding record as opposed to his competition record. Many stallions spend so much time breeding they don't have the chance to really compete at the highest levels, or even at all, and I wouldn't hold it against them or their offspring. In Germany, most stallions never compete at all, but are hotly desired as breeding sires.

this year I bred to a younger stallion which only has a competition record, and although it just so happens that record is outstanding, actually I didn't even consider that particularly when deciding to breed to him. What I considered was his pedigree match with my mare, and his conformational match with my mare, and his progeny's charactoristics.

That he's a wonderful competition horse is nice, but only interesting to me if I decide to sell the foal, because that's what buyer's seem to think is important. Should that be the case, then I would have a foal from a mare which was trained to GP, has a show record to I2, and a stallion which has placed at the top in the small tour. HOpefully, that would be something the market would be intersted in buying, because my current yearling has attracted no interest at all, and to me, she's quite outstanding, better every day in fact. Who can figure? I guess the market is pretty bad out there anyhow.

This is just an illustration of how breeders think differently about their bloodstock than riders do.

Frankly, the main consideration I would have were I in your shoes, is whether my riding and training abilities are sufficient to bring a youngster under saddle and then along up to PSG, no whether the horse will be able to do it. I can assure you that there are folks out there who have bought wild mustangs at BLM that have achieved this- but it's not the horse's innate ability which has been measured, it's the training. Almost any approved warmblood from approved parents has enough ability to make PSG- IF the training is good enough. Just like almost any foal will be able to jump a 3' course. Cause these horses are bred and in-bred and selected to be able to do this, and mostly, they all can. PSG is just really not that high a goal for a breeder anymore. That doesn't mean that the horse will be the world champion on the small tour, but he should be able to do the work.

[slc2]

It really is not easy to say. 'Appropriate' would really be the key. What i would look for would be very dfferent from what someone else would look for.

A 'young dressage prospect' for a forty something working mom with a full time job and experience riding one older horse at training level at local shows, who wants to have fun, ride some now and again, and dabble in other riding sports too..or the person looking may be a top level YR heading for the World Equestrian Games in dressage, after training the horse with Klaus Balkenhol and showing in Europe for 4 years...there's a lot of ground to cover in between the two extremes. What horse is good for one of those people isn't good for another. Guessing about 'what is a typical dressage rider' doesn't usually work, though most riders ride locally, at training level, and aren't looking for an expensive, top notch horse.

The horse for the first rider first and foremost needs to have good temperament and easy to sit gaits. Breeding? Who cares, if he is reliable and kind and safe.

The horse for the second rider would be a very, very different horse. Breeding? Even if a gelding? Oh yes. THe most popular marketable bloodlines, if available. Why? Resell, of course, but also, those bloodlines are usually popular for a reason. Gaits? Suspension? A rider like that would be looking for a real elite mover, who cares if 99% of people couldn't sit his trot? That rider won't have any trouble. Balanced, sure, but also perhaps hot as a pistol, and able to do things that would put rider number 1 into the rafters..precisely what makes him appropriate for rider 2.

"Gaits, rhythm, suspension, balance, conformation'...the question is how much. What one person sees as 'well balanced' may not cut it at all for an elite prospect.

A top class elite prospect looks like he is floating on air - he can handle work at 4 that would break a less balanced horse in half. And he may be WAY too much horse for an inexperienced rider. It's really all about 'appropriate'.