Who would you be willing to train with ?

[~Freedom~]

There are a lot of proven trainers. Their results speak for themselves.

Then there are trainers that hang a shingle out with minor successes but when you look at their padded resume with a critical eye the discerning realize that you don't always get what you pay for.

But there is also a third choice. We all know about people coming to the message boards to get advise. Some of which is questionable, some is downright dangerous and some actually come of as being reasonable. Just on the face of it some advise comes off as being correct for the situation but without the ability to "know" who or just what some message board "experts" really know how would a novice dressage hopeful know which cyber personality to ask for real life training if they were so inclined.

There have been a few threads one more than one board talking about the ability of people that "give advise" on the various boards, but would you actually take a lesson from any one of them ( I am referring to person that is not known to you other than by a message board.)

Just in case anyone want to do a search on me I rarely give advise but will comment in a general nature simply because most advise that may be correct does not take into account that aids applied require the correct timing as well as correct application and only by being there can the trainer give out the best and most appropriate advice.

[atr]

OK, I'll bite...

I'm pretty picky about who I'll train with.

Personally, I wouldn't commit to any trainer without watching them first ride and teach, however much I'd heard them talk the talk.

Would I have an interest in finding out more about a trainer whose advice and style I had found useful and compatible through reading their posts? Sure. But my above approach would still stand--watch from the sidelines for a bit and find out if this is the right person for you and your horse.

Of course they'd have to be out here in the Wild West, which does make the scenario somewhat less statistically likely...

Is this the kind of answer you were looking for, or were you looking for more specifics, such as "I'd like to train with poster so-and-so based on their posts."?

[kahjul]

My horse is not average, not in build, so there for trainability. I have learned that it does me no good to see how a trainer teaches someone on a more traditionally built horse, nor does it help me to know that they themselves have done, blah, blah, blah at whatever level, under whomever or... It is worth the price to me, (if it's an amount I'm willing to pay on a regular basis) to try a lesson with someone who seems to know what they are doing on paper. I think I know enough to not go back if it wasn't helpful, and I have learned enough (thank God) to advocate for my horse and not allow her to be screwed up. I also shy away from trainers who want to get on my horse. After a few rides, when they have my trust, thats fine, but right out of the gate, no thanks! I have come away from clinics with BNT with less info than I thought I would get, and lessons with my neighbor that had huge 'aha' moments. Part of the discrepency is that both you and the horse are constanly changing, therefore, so are your needs.

[~Freedom~]

Is this the kind of answer you were looking for, or were you looking for more specifics, such as "I'd like to train with poster so-and-so based on their posts."?

The one thing I learned from posting on boards is that each will interpret a thread in their own way. Threads have a habit of going straight then making several left or right turns. :lol: Each will answer according to their own nature.

I was curious that so many (lately I have noticed) appear to be jumping on multiple message boards with advise which make my eyes pop out after reading, that I have to walk away. It makes me wonder if anyone would actually PM one of these people and actually feel taking a lesson with them would somehow become a shining moment of revelation at least one way or the other.

[egontoast]

I'm not interested in training with anyone who has not walked the walk and actually trained horses themselves successfully up through the levels.

Otherwise I'll save my money and flounder around on my own because I can read, too! haha:D'

it's pretty obvious that there are internet experts with feet of clay who talk the talk , cut paste google,etc. but have not really walked the walk.

Nonetheless these poseurs have SUCH loyal fans. ;):yes: So touching!:)

[seabreeze]

I was curious that so many (lately I have noticed) appear to be jumping on multiple message boards with advise which make my eyes pop out after reading, that I have to walk away.

How in the world do you find the time to frequent multiple message boards? I visit COTH daily and sometimes post, and I can't believe the amount of time it takes! Maybe I'm a slow reader...:winkgrin:

To answer the question from the title of your thread...I would only train with someone I have seen ride or coach.

A BB is great for getting opinions and ideas that serve as springboards for further consideration.

[~Freedom~]

How in the world do you find the time to frequent multiple message boards? I visit COTH daily and sometimes post, and I can't believe the amount of time it takes! Maybe I'm a slow reader...:winkgrin:




I learned a long time ago to be a speed reader. I usually ran out of books I got from the library. A 500 page book would last me about 4 hours.

[Ambrey]

Advice can only come from someone's experience. I have, indeed, gotten advice on message boards that made even MY eyes pop, from people who were hanging out their shingles.

But who knows what their interpretation of my problem, from some pretty limited information, really was? I once posted a video of my horse in turn-out and got about 10 different interpretations of his behavior and what it meant, all filtered through the lens of their own beliefs and understanding of the situation.

But that's the value of boards. The different information. In fact, I think the boards are most informative when people have differing interpretations/advice and are willing to discuss it.

And a trainer should have a set of skills totally unrelated to what one finds on a board. They need to be able to interpret your horse's behavior, but they get to see and/or ride the horse, not just hear what YOU think is happening. They get to see you riding, not one video of 5 minutes out of one ride or a few pictures.

But people on the boards aren't selling themselves as trainers. They are just discussing and chatting, not giving professional advice. I do develop feelings about people's personalities, and I am sure there are people who post on the boards who I would never call for training just because I don't like them much.

eta: I find that when the advice I get is really off, it usually has to do with how someone has interpreted the problem, rather than what they'd really do if they had my horse.

[TBROCKS]

But people on the boards aren't selling themselves as trainers. They are just discussing and chatting, not giving professional advice.

I've seen lots of posts that went way beyond "discussing and chatting".

[Roan]

*** Assuming ideayoda is whom I think she is and someone else isn't using her handle on here, I'd train with her any day. ***

Most of you only read her stuff on some boards, I read her posts somewhere else where you can't BS your way around. You either know what you are saying, or you are toast.

My 2 cents

Eileen

[pintopiaffe]

I'd love to audit and probably ride with IdeaYoda.

And I'd really love to audit and probably ride with EqTrainer.

I just wish I could find someone LOCAL. :lol:

[Ambrey]

I'd love to audit and probably ride with IdeaYoda.

And I'd really love to audit and probably ride with EqTrainer.


I get the impression (could be wrong here ;)) that ideayoda and eqtrainer have been doing it for a while, though- they both come off as comfortable and confident in their opinions, without being condescending.

But more than that, they are both quite capable of expressing themselves in writing. Sometimes I wonder how much of our opinion is based on just that- I have known people who are so knowledgable and capable and charming to turn into complete clods when they hit the internet. I kind of see it as the equivalent of a different language.

[~Freedom~]

I have known people who are so knowledgable and capable and charming to turn into complete clods when they hit the internet. I kind of see it as the equivalent of a different language.

I have noticed the exact opposite. People that have no knowledge or experience that are just good readers and are able to recite dressage theory down pat....but can't even sit their horse and even get a decent walk out of it. Or even have a horse they have trained above training level sounding as if they are on FEI's doorstep.

Tell me Ambrey, how is that cute palomino you ride?

[Ambrey]

Tell me Ambrey, how is that cute palomino you ride?

He is great :) I don't get to ride much still, my physical therapist keeps yelling at me! Anyway he is not as comfortable for me to ride as my horse.

Just need to keep doing those ab exercizes and eventually I'll be able to keep myself on a horse for more than 5 minutes at a time ;)

I am betting there are both types out there. There are the great trainers who are amazingly skilled and capable but come off very badly online, and those who wouldn't live up to the hype in person. That's the nature of the internet :)

[Hazelnut]

No matter where I find out about an instructor, I would want to meet and talk with an instructor, see where they work, watch them ride, and observe them instruct before deciding to take a lesson (also it is possible that they have to determine if they want to instuct me and my horse).

It is hard for me to know from the internet BB who would be a good match. I can tell pretty clearly there are some members who have a lot of opinion without the ability to share ideas or evaluate other opinions....that would not work out.

Also trainers who express the need to exert control over feed, shoeing, vet, turnout, clinicing, and my ride time outside lessons. I may not be as experienced, but I have found my horse and I don't progress in that situation.

But responses on the BB can be very one dimensional and misunderstood. So if I was visiting an area or someone was from my home area I would be open to checking out someone I heard of from a BB.

[~Freedom~]

So just thinking from this board, who would be of interest to anyone ?

ideayoda--?

dressage art ?

slc ?

eqtrainer ?

There are a couple others so who then if any?

[Rusty Stirrup]

Even some who have written books when seen and heard in the flesh give a totally different impression. There are actually quite a few on this board, included those mentioned, who's opinions and suggestions I usually find enlightening and would certainly consider training with.

[rileyt]

There are several posters here whom I know only via their COTH monikers, but from whom I see (what sounds to me) like very good, solid, knowledgeable advice 99% of the time. Based solely on what I've read here, I'd at least investigate the option of lessons further if I were looking for a trainer.

Ideayoda, EqTrainer, and WindsongEq come to mind, but I'm probably forgetting a few others.

There are others, whom generally give "correct" information, but whom I know too much about in their "real lives" such that I know that what they're spewing forth here is a regurgitation of the latest book they read, and not based in actual experience.

[merrygoround]

'Freedom' the word is ADVICE. Some of them do advise too.

There are some on here I'd be willing to give a trial shot. Then there are some of the more vociferous ones I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. :lol: :lol:

[hitchinmygetalong]

I would be willing to train with someone from this board if they had verifiable credentials and a verifiable list of successful students. The proof is in the pudding and all.

Key word: V E R I F I A B L E

Just because someone *says* the sky is pink does not necessarily make it so.

[MontanaDun]

I took part in a USDF instructors seminar several years ago and it was pretty eye-opening. One of the gals teaching said everything right. Her words were all correct, but the horse got more and more and more curled up and less and less and less forward and through. If you listened to the lesson, you would be nodding your head yes, but if you saw it, you would be shaking your head in horror.

Good theory is one thing. Good practice another.

MD

[Brookes]

Velvet, Velvet and oh wait only Velvet. I have missed her thoughtful and educated responses here on the board. Also her quick wit. She had always impressed me as someone who knew what the hell they were doing.

I have seen a couple of photos of her riding. What a gorgeous seat!

The rest strike me as poseurs. I haven't really noticed Ideayoda, however I will pay more attention to this in the future.

I have always been a student, never a trainer and truly appreciate someone that can make it simple, break it down and help me to the best of 'my' ability. Velvet always made her explainations clear, at least to me.

I can't stand when low level riders get on the net and spew training advice. I mean really what do you have to show for it? I have never ever attempted to 'help' anyone ride their horse on the net. I don't have the credentials or the experience needed to 'train' someone, either in person or over the net. I know my limitations. I just wish others were as honest with themselves.

Now that I no longer ride (due to injury crap crap crap) I still very much enjoy seeing what others have to say here. However the 'advice' I see sometimes is soooooo unreal that I wonder if these folks have ever truly ridden dressage, or just think they are. Anyone can read a book, however taking that knowledge. . . breaking it down . . . and actually applying it are two very very different beasts. This I believe takes a true understanding of dressage and what each individuals' needs may be. Otherwise it's just blah, blah, blah, blah and blah. It means zip.

[Ambrey]

I can't stand when low level riders get on the net and spew training advice. I mean really what do you have to show for it? I have never ever attempted to 'help' anyone ride their horse on the net. I don't have the credentials or the experience needed to 'train' someone, either in person or over the net. I know my limitations. I just wish others were as honest with themselves.

But this isn't a training center, it's a community. We share what we've done, what's worked for us, what we are hearing from our trainers- that's the value. And having people of all different levels is part of the benefit, as we can hear from people who are below our level, at our level, and above our level. No, we're not going to agree with all of the advice given- but that, too, is the nature of the 'net.

[Dressage Art]

So just thinking from this board, who would be of interest to anyone ?

ideayoda--?

dressage art ?

slc ?

eqtrainer ?

There are a couple others so who then if any?

Freedom, I'm not a pro trainer and I don't usually give "training advice". I'm an amateur rider with no interest of becoming a pro trainer at all. I worked as an assistant trainer back when I was a teenager, worked with beginner kids, and found out that I'm a worry bug and worry way too much about a possibility that my students will injure themselves, so I use to keep them on the lunge for a looong time, then I couldn't sleep at night if they would start riding by themselves and I wasn't there to "mother" them. I was way overprotective and it was very, very stressful for me.

I shown up to FEI and finished USDF "L" dressage judging program - judging came naturally and it's much easier for me to judge than to give lessons for the same reason that I'm not worried that my students will fall down. I enjoy judging a lot and it's a good thing that in US a dressage judge can be an amateur rider... but judging advice is different than training advice.

[Mardi]

'Freedom' the word is ADVICE. Some of them do advise too.


Thank you ! That was driving me nuts. :)

Advice is the noun, Advise is the verb.

[Dressage Art]

As with whom I would ride from COTH, ditto to what Hazelnut said:
No matter where I find out about an instructor, I would want to meet and talk with an instructor, see where they work, watch them ride, and observe them instruct before deciding to take a lesson (also it is possible that they have to determine if they want to instuct me and my horse).
Also trainers who express the need to exert control over feed, shoeing, vet, turnout, clinicing, and my ride time outside lessons. I may not be as experienced, but I have found my horse and I don't progress in that situation.

Same goals – that is very important thing for me in my instructors. I strongly believe in turn out and trail riding. Trainer who doesn’t chase blue ribbons. I enjoy relaxing dressage, rather than a pressure cooker “stressage”.

Out of COTH posters, I currently clinic with WindsongEq in “real life” and enjoy that a lot. She is a successful GP pro trainer with lots of years of experience. She is open minded to work with any horses and concentrates on the horse’s and rider’s biomechanics. Her up this second live advice during our lessons clicks and I can retain it, reproduce it even after our lessons are done. I wish she would live closer, so I can take more lessons from her.

I enjoy advice and point of views of about a dozen posters here on COTH.

[Brookes]

Ambrey, yes it is a community. However, training advice given by less experienced riders can be very detrimental. If a rider is coming here and asking advice the least that they deserve is the voice of experience attempting to help them. Experienced trainers and riders may have dealt with an issue time and time again with different horses, therefore they may have found a great work around or a 'fix' that can truly help someone. They can recognize a problem, diagnose it and adapt it to each horse/rider.

Just cause something worked for you and your horse once, doesn't mean that it will help anyone else. You don't have the background to determine what may be helpful or harmful. Each horse is an individual and may need to be worked differently.

Many folks get more feedback through pms here than what we see on the boards. I had one person help me years back through pms work through a problem while I was between trainers. They were very specific in their questions and wanted video before giving training advice. I was very impressed with their attitude, she showed a level of mature responsibility while helping me. Didnt just spout off a chapter from dressage book 101A!! She would not help me until I provided answers to her questions and video. Again mature responsibility. Also her advice was dead on and we made a breakthrough due to her assistance. I will always be in her debt.

The voice of experience to me means that trainer/rider has years of dealing with certain problems in riding. I see many experienced riders/trainers here giving sound advice, because they experienced the issue/problem many many times. Just giving a textbook answer to something is putting yourself out there as an experienced horseperson. Many novice riders can and do read the advice here and put it to work for them. Do you want the responsibility of giving them poor advice? Not me, no thanks!

Discussion of an issue is one thing, spouting training advice is another if you don't have the background to back it up!!

[Ambrey]

Discussion of an issue is one thing, spouting training advice is another if you don't have the background to back it up!!

Well that's the thing about a community- different people come for different things. I for one would not want someone to NOT tell me their thoughts on my issue just because they were not a trainer.

Any time one poses a question on a board, they will get a range of advice from a range of people, ranging from horrible advice to good advice. What you might see as horrible, someone else might see as good.

So free speech and all that. If what you need is a trainer, this is not the place to be. This is a place to bounce things off of, talk about issues, hear others' viewpoints, and maybe get some new ideas or new things to try.

Just because there are a few excellent trainers who DO take the time to answer people's questions doesn't mean we can or should expect that they are the only ones to respond.

[pintopiaffe]

it goes both ways. Sometimes it's very difficult to phrase the question correctly. And of course to give enough background--and caveat the whole: Saddle fits, teeth are done, chiro-ed 2x a month, yadda yadda....

I got a tremendous amount of help and encouragement from a post I made last fall. Probably 50/50 technical advice that was useful and just "BTDT, survived it without wrecking my horse" kind of advice. Both were helpful.

I also think it's worth pointing out not all trainers can teach, and some teachers can teach far above where they can (currently) ride. Granted at some point you really must've ridden the movements to understand the feeling/timing... but TEACHING is a skill that can be completely apart from training...

[see u at x]

Count me in as very much appreciating comments from EqTrainer, IdeaYoda, and WindsongEq. I think they seem like very knowledgable people to lesson/clinic with. Unfortunately, none of them are close to me. However, dressagediosa is in my area, and I'd love to watch her ride/teach to see if she'd be a good fit as an instructor for someone like me.

[Lambie Boat]

I've taken lessons from COTH member physical.energy before. she's really good and knows what she's doing.

[Ajierene]

I agree with Dressage Art and Hazelnut on the issue of overpowering trainers. I had one trainer tell the barn owner she would be an hour late. Owner told me - I took the opportunity to go to another farm and visit my horse. I was taking a lesson on my sister's horse and my horse was about a 15 minute ride away.

She had the gall to yell at me when she came and saw me just about tacked up in the barn. She said that I should have been up in the ring already warmed up, especially since she was late. My thoughts are - I pay you for an hour. If I spend that hour warming up, that's my business. If I don't start tacking up until the hour is started - lady, you get paid the same either way.

On the topic of internet advice - I know people who have been 'trainers' for a long time, but do they know more than another person that just started out? I do not show my credentials, as they are, to anyone on these boards. Take my advice, don't take it - you asked for advice, I gave some from my knowledge.

Some people trained at the same barn, with the same breed/personality of horses for their entire 20 year 'training' career. They have gotten far up in the show circuit - but they don't really know about a variety of personalities or a variety of training methods, they just know one. So just because they have shown successfully much higher than someone else does not mean they are really more experienced. There is also the issue of knowledge versus money - some people are great book learners and just really absorb knowledge, take lessons on a somewhat irregular basis and have never really had the money to go to higher level shows but could tell you everything you need to know to be a champion.

And yes, there are some people that can teach better than they can ride - which seems odd, but I have seen it - mostly at the beginner/general riding level.

[IAMFEI]

I have noticed the exact opposite. People that have no knowledge or experience that are just good readers and are able to recite dressage theory down pat....but can't even sit their horse and even get a decent walk out of it. Or even have a horse they have trained above training level sounding as if they are on FEI's doorstep.

Tell me Ambrey, how is that cute palomino you ride?

He is cute. Here he is.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3614/95805598ol1.png


Another cute one.
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3954/26575531yf2.png

[Kathy Johnson]

On the flip side, I have been approached by and given lessons to quite a few BB members. I loved meeting each and every one, have established some great friendships and have never been disappointed meeting them in person. I think you can tell a ton from people's posts if you read them over the years.

[FlashGordon]

So just thinking from this board, who would be of interest to anyone ?

ideayoda--?

dressage art ?

slc ?

eqtrainer ?

There are a couple others so who then if any?

Having recently met EqTrainer I would most definitely train with her. She was exactly as I anticipated her to be from her posts-- totally knowledgeable, straightforward, a great rider, and nice to boot! (her horses are great too!! And you should see their FEET!)

Kathy Johnson is another as I always find her perspective interesting. Her posts seem well thought out and her advice is usually thorough and tactfully delivered.

As far as the Off Course/HJ crowd... LucassB, findeight, and monstrpony are three I take a shine too though I think all may be ammies. But all three seem to have their heads screwed on and know their stuff!!

Even though we are all essentially "hiding" behind UNs and written words, I think you can really get a feel for folks and their true sense of character and level of knowledge. Where the pros are concerned, I think if you are perceptive enough you could essentially find a trainer you'd mesh with via their posts, the info they offer, and the way in which it is delivered.

[lstevenson]

On the flip side, I have been approached by and given lessons to quite a few BB members. I loved meeting each and every one, have established some great friendships and have never been disappointed meeting them in person. I think you can tell a ton from people's posts if you read them over the years.


Me too! COTH is an amazing networking device isn't it? I know I've met some great people here.

[Ambrey]

He is cute. Here he is.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3614/95805598ol1.png


Another cute one.
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3954/26575531yf2.png (http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3954/26575531yf2.png)

Yep, there's my two horses. It must have taken a great deal of skill to go through my photobucket and get two bad pictures :)

But you're right, he is cute! And so is my gray, who since that picture (several months ago) has come a whole heck of a long way. I'm lucky to have both of them :)

eta: Personally, I find this one WAY more humiliating:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/200805-19-Lightning151.jpg

But, hey, it was my 6th ride after my accident, I guess I should be happy I stayed on :) And lightning is STILL too cute! He was worth the days of pain that followed :)

[Shiaway]

IAMFEI--

Oh look I found one of you, too!

http://distractiblemind.ambulatorycomputing.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/WindowsLiveWriter/a053d54fd0a8_11F67/Goofy%20Horse%5B3%5D.jpg


:lol:

[Sabine]

So just thinking from this board, who would be of interest to anyone ?

ideayoda--?

dressage art ?

slc ?

eqtrainer ?

There are a couple others so who then if any?

Why would you ask a question like this? It must be meant to provoke some kind of response. All of these (maybe not slc- she's not a trainer to my knowledge) have economic repercussions to expect - if someone posts negative comments...

I do have my opinion on this question- however I think this board is not really suited to discuss 'specific' individuals- rather discuss the 'qualities' we seek and the 'faults' we try to avoid.

I am a total amateur and to me- a trainer I would train with has to be able to also ride and 'train' my horses- because often once you feel something - you can give much better advice on how to ride it.
Secondly - the trainer of my choice would have to have just the right amount of forcefulness and kindness- know the moment to push and the moment to give. That's a huge requirement to allow you to move easily from level to level- assuming the horse likes the job.
Lastly- I prefer a precise trainer that is not too wordy and gives very specific and direct instructions in the moment- ideally with a headphone- so the peacefulness of the riding experience is not interrupted by very loud yelling.

And utmost lastly- I want my trainer to have balls- the balls to tell me when I suck, when my horse sucks- when something need to be done different etc- in other words- I want a trainer that doesn't always first think of the monthly/hourly fee- but rather tells me the trutht to move forward progressively.

That's all I want- let me know if some of you have found it...LOL!

[Roan]

Bah, you look a hell of a lot better than I do, Ambrey.

Eileen

[Ambrey]

Bah, you look a hell of a lot better than I do, Ambrey.

Eileen

LOL, the pics of me on Lightning (my palomino welshx) are like my 6th ride after my accident. My stirrups were at least 2 holes too long and every time he sped up at a trot I'd start curling up into a fetal position (I sent a friend a note with one of the picture with a caption that went something like "auuuuggghhhh").

The others are just me slouching on my big guy. He's a lot cuter than I am, I admit :)

But, yep, those are pics of me in all my FEI bound glory, LOL! I am pretty sure Anky is watching her back. I might have to buy some clothes that aren't purple though ;)

eta: For all I and even his trainers can't get the stinker into a slow trot, his old owner came out today and had him leg yielding across the arena, and he's great for my kids. I love that pony!

[grayarabpony]

FancyFree just wants to prove that she has no class.

Freedom, you need to get over your obsession with slc2.

[lewin]

As the taker of many of those pictures IAMFEI I will admit that there were much better moments as Ambrey was trying to rediscover how her body works on a horse. Unfortunately I am a horrible photographer and missed all of them. But all in all is was a much better ride than I had when I came back after far less injuries!

And I do think that maybe you have Ambrey confused with me as to the FEI goals. I am the one who plans on showing FEI. Although I will admit that Ambrey's horse cost twice what mine did. ;)

[Ambrey]

Although I will admit that Ambrey's horse cost twice what mine did. ;)

Of course he did. He's twice as fat, and draft horses are priced by the pound!

[~Freedom~]

Why would you ask a question like this? It must be meant to provoke some kind of response. All of these (maybe not slc- she's not a trainer to my knowledge) have economic repercussions to expect - if someone posts negative comments...




Hmm since the topic OF this thread is who would you train with and I did say someone you never met I simply picked out a few of the active members of this board because this thread was posted ON this board. Not every person on COTH will visit another boards to be see the more active members there.

The post I made that you quoted is a neutral post with no negative/positive overtures but is in keeping with the topic of this thread.

I am curious to know if the way or manner a reply is posted on this or any board induces anyone to consider requesting their help in real life when that person will have no other facts in front of them other than the postings/writings on a message board.

[slc2]

One of these days, we will stop being graced with the Anti-Ambrey girl clique. News flash, girls in that particular clique...guess what? You're very boring, and you're making yourselves look incredibly childish.

Would I train with me based on what I post here, or how popular it is?

No, how you write on a bb, who likes your posts or how much the 'girl clique' fawns on you here is no judge of your training skill, it is only a judge of how popularly you can write. The two are inversely related. Toss in a few words like 'harmony', 'gently' and talk about chiropractic and herbs, blame the problem on teeth, a saddle or needing a different bit, talk about being 'classical', your post will be 'popular' here, because that's the kind of thing that appeals to alot of people.

Should non trainers post their thoughts and answer training questions? Of course.

Most of the questions here relate to training and first level and are based on extremely fundamental issues. As far as I'm concerned, everyone should be able to at least try to answer those questions. If people don't agree it doesn't matter, the key is verbalizing what you know. That is what will teach YOU and allow YOU to examine YOUR knowledge. That someone else may like it is a side effect.

I've learned an immense amount from answering training questions. The feedback I've gotten has taught me a great deal. Comparing my post to what others say has taught me even more.

Often the disagreements are only about where the poster is putting his emphasis or how he words his post.

Many horse trainers would never post on an internet bb, and if they did, you probably wouldn't like it, cause they spend more time riding than learning how to make appealing sounding posts on an internet bb.

The pitiful business of 'showing up' people on an internet bulletin board is all that can be expected of a thread such as this.

The thread is meant to do exactly what Ambrey and her pals have degenerated to, except with slightly more dignified sounding words - most seem to have not recognized that a thread like this is all about exactly what ambrey and her pals are posting here (AGAIN). Please don't act shocked, :lol:.

People post on an internet bb because they like to post on an internet bb. THere is no more to it than that. People who want to read more into it than that probably need something else to occupy their spare time.

And saying, 'I disagree' is not a personal attack or a declaration of superiority, it is only the statement 'I disagree'. It is a valid statement, and should not create a 'pile on girl clique' reaction. 'I disagree' is where most learning starts. Not that one should be 'convinced' and then 'agree', but that one should listen and find out why the person disagrees.

And as far as I'm concerned, people SHOULD be happy with what they've learned and SHOULD be willing to talk about it.

Whether they have the money to afford fancy horses or not, whether it is from a top coach or an experienced unknown, or on their own, whether through showing and winning medals, or just through the experience of working with a horse they love at home, one horse or many. And they should be happy to share it.

I think everyone can contribute to a conversation. I don't think knowledge is limited to one kind of person.

Training, on the other hand, is a matter of applying technique correctly, and that is something that is a very limited commodity. Very few have the breadth of technical knowledge, experience, and ability to communicate, PLUS the ability to organize a business, a schedule, and relate to different kinds of students at different levels with a variety of types of horses.

It would be nice if the feedback didn't generate to childish idiocy, but you can't expect everyone to behave like adults in pubic.

It is no secret that some trainers come here and post with the hopes of attracting students. That's inevitable on the internet. And all that's required to be popular and appealing on an internet bb is the ability to write in an appealing way.

But in general what better way would there be to learn and improve during the 'worthless hours of the day that one spends off the back of a horse' than to talk about such things with other riders?

[Ajierene]

So...is the entire COTH board full of elitists and cliques. I have only been here for a few weeks and I do enjoy the internet boards because of the different views that you get. No, I don't agree with all of it, but someone - beginner or advanced - will say something that is not what I have heard before and will be interesting to either research more, talk to my instructor about, try out whatever.

The first rule of the boards here:
1. You’re responsible for what you say.
This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people. Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing or otherwise inappropriate statements and legally unsubstantiated defamatory accusations will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators. Due to the popularity and size of the forums, policing each post is impossible, and members bear the ultimate responsibility for their comments. The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not responsible for the content of the forums, but the moderators work to maintain the closest adherence to the rules of the board as possible.

This is the third time on three separate sections that threads have degenerated into rude comments.

Why is IAMFEI only showing pictures of Ambrey - why not show some pictures of yourself? Why result to rude comments as welll? Really, what is the point? You don't like her, ignore her.

[~Freedom~]

So...is the entire COTH board full of elitists and cliques. I have only been here for a few weeks and I do enjoy the internet boards because of the different views that you get. No, I don't agree with all of it, but someone - beginner or advanced - will say something that is not what I have heard before and will be interesting to either research more, talk to my instructor about, try out whatever.

The first rule of the boards here:
1. You’re responsible for what you say.
This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people. Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing or otherwise inappropriate statements and legally unsubstantiated defamatory accusations will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators. Due to the popularity and size of the forums, policing each post is impossible, and members bear the ultimate responsibility for their comments. The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not responsible for the content of the forums, but the moderators work to maintain the closest adherence to the rules of the board as possible.

This is the third time on three separate sections that threads have degenerated into rude comments.

Why is IAMFEI only showing pictures of Ambrey - why not show some pictures of yourself? Why result to rude comments as welll? Really, what is the point? You don't like her, ignore her.

In spite of this being a large community (member wise) there are many that post here that know each other. Some are even stalled next to each other. Some have had interaction with others in a negative way through various other dealings.

I know of several paired antagonists that have had real life dealings with others on this board with less than stellar results. Makes for bad feelings and I try to keep myself away from any direct contact for that very reason.

This is why I asked specifically for answers from people that do NOT know the other board member if they would train with them based solely on their posts here.

[Moderator 1]

Welcome to the BB, Ajierene, and an aptly quoted portion of the rules. FYI, you can click on the alert button (exclamation point inside a triangle in upper right corner of each post) if you feel a thread is taking a bad turn, and the mods will come have a look.

We've banned IAMFEI, as this individual clearly joined with the sole intention of targeting an existing poster. We've removed the majority of posts by this person and the responses to them.

We trust that nobody else on this thread is posting with similar intent or plans to in the future or it will be dealt with accordingly.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Ajierene]

Thank you Freedom and thank you Moderator 1.

I am used to more 'global' boards. I am noticing that this one is more local to my area, which I guess brings different pluses and minuses. It is nice to know there are nice people here also - I guess I will stick around....

And I am a bit to knew to really be familiar with many posts - but I will say that if I see someone say something I do not agree with, likely I will not want to train with them.

That is one good point to the internet - you can see some of the philosophies of people before actually training with them. Then again, I did not believe much of what my current instructor said for the first five or so months of lessons....but I was initially just learning dressage to do something different - I never planned on competing in a dressage related sport, just ended up really agreeing with my trainer, on both her philosophy (at about month 4, I started doing research) and her personality (down to earth - whenever something is wrong, it is my fault and convenient lying - that jump is only 2ft, it will be fine).

I also thought I would find dressage boring and found it immensely entertaining and challenging.

[Ambrey]

In spite of this being a large community (member wise) there are many that post here that know each other. Some are even stalled next to each other. Some have had interaction with others in a negative way through various other dealings.


And sometimes we've never met the person or spoken to them in person, and the other person just starts this stuff.

Contrary to what she may have said, I've never actually met IAMFEI other than online. There is no personal conflict gone wild, no stolen boyfriend or family feud. I met her here, although she does stable at the same facility. I didn't even know what she looked like nor had I ever seen her horse until a couple of days ago. Sometimes interpersonal conflicts are entirely the product of one person's active imagination :)

SLC, I am not sure why I earned this:

The thread is meant to do exactly what Ambrey and her pals have degenerated to, except with slightly more dignified sounding words - most seem to have not recognized that a thread like this is all about exactly what ambrey and her pals are posting here (AGAIN). Please don't act shocked, :lol:.

My only pal here is Lewin, who I *do* know and who also boards at my barn. I don't start this stuff any more than you do. My response to it is definitely different, but then I think you've proven that unlike 6th grade, ignoring them WON'T make them go away. Neither will snarking back, but at least it makes me feel better. I have no aspiration to be viewed as cool, calm, and collected and wouldn't be able to pull it off if I tried ;)

But, yes, I did understand the goal of the OP, and I don't think anyone rose to the bait.

Ajierene, you have to understand that there's an entire group of people on another BB whose bond to each other is built upon finding people to scorn and doing so. It's an interesting read, although it will make your stomach turn (mine more so than yours, since I'm featured quite prominently, as is SLC). Post like these are an attempt to bring that board's mentality here without going afoul of the moderators. Unfortunately, some are better at avoiding blatant offense than others.

The good news is that even though I'm pretty active online, I've only met a handfull of "those" kind of people. The vast majority of the people I've met are kind and helpful. I do have to admit that I've seen more in the horse world than in other communities I've been a part of. I think it's because other communities, such as parenting, tend to have an older demographic.

[slc2]

"I am not sure why I earned this"

you didn't. the following is supposed to be funny:

for responding to them? :lol:

for BRINGING them here? they followed you in the door, didn't they? :winkgrin:

What you DID, Ambrey, what you're getting followed around and punished for, is having the temerity to suggest, that you, an ordinary rider with an inexpensive, pleasant horse, could one day do FEI Levels, if you just keep at it and take lessons.

Because as we all know, NO ONE IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE has EVER learned the FEI levels unless they have an expensive warmblood and are built like a lanky blond model.

how bloody DARE you.

Don't you know if you lift your head over the rim of that training level bucket and dare to look around and even WISH about it, that someone is going to push you back down in the water and hold your head under?????

[Ambrey]

Because as we all know, NO ONE IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE has EVER learned the FEI levels unless they have an expensive warmblood and are built like a lanky blond model.

how bloody DARE you.

Don't you know if you lift your head over the rim of that training level bucket and dare to look around and even WISH about it, that someone is going to push you back down in the water and hold your head under?????

's OK

I gots me a SNORKLE!

Gawd, it's what I love about being middle aged, not a lanky supermodel, and not having spent huge $$ on a warmblood. Anything I achieve at this point in my life is total icing on the cake. If I'm riding in the olympics in 2012, I'm thrilled. If I'm muddling through training level in 2012, I'm thrilled. There's just no downside. No deadlines, no graduation date, no biological clock ticking, nothing!

Now that reminds me, my PT gave me the go ahead to get back on the horse and I must schedule me a lesson!

[Ajierene]

Ambrey's 'stalker' reminds me of a girl I knew when I was younger. In high school she made fun of me constantly - no one knew why and I couldn't care less. In college I met her in the elevator of the dorm we were both living in, apparently. Took me the entire elevator ride she was being very friendly to me and I was just trying to remember who she was (that's how much she meant to me).

After that brief conversation, we parted ways. A few days later I was talking to another old high school classmate (I did remember this one and we talked occassionally). She said the first girl saw that my car had DE plates (not sure what she was doing scoping out my car - I grew up in NJ). She was apparently on a quest to find out why. Not sure why she cared so much....

[slc2]

i don't care how well someone rides or what sort of figure they cut on a horse. at the end of the day is just one simple thing - riding is good for people - that's all that really matters.

[~Freedom~]

Because as we all know, NO ONE IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE has EVER learned the FEI levels unless they have an expensive warmblood and are built like a lanky blond model.

how bloody DARE you.

Don't you know if you lift your head over the rim of that training level bucket and dare to look around and even WISH about it, that someone is going to push you back down in the water and hold your head under?????

Oh I dared and DID, and I didn't need message boards to help me either.

I can find nothing wrong with some information being given to help out in the general understanding of various movements. Where I draw the line is when those that have never ridden or experienced something passing out information like aspirin simply because they read someone else's post or were good at "google".

Too much goes into the nuances and slight changes in a good ride that without the knowledge of timing all the instructions in the world will not help you. A trainer on the ground that can see the potential ramifications of each move is the only way an understanding can occur.

I remember watching a trainer I respect work a young horse. All he was doing is asking for a canter. But he didn't want just "any" canter but a good one. He manipulated that horse left and right to get just the right balance. Talking all the time to us and himself saying "well almost but no not just right" or "not in a good place". He maneuvered that horse and when he had the horse just right a beautiful canter start became a picture of beauty. What that guy did cannot be expressed over a board. The "idea" that it takes this sort of concentration can but not the actual performance of the action that trainer took.

There are a few people I have read on this board that seem to understand this (no I will not name you) but I shake my head at some responses or outright giggle at others. Then there are some whose advice is downright dangerous and I see red.

So yes SLC riding is good for people but whether that's all that really matters depends on the expectation of each individual's goal for themselves or their horse.

[Ambrey]

I can find nothing wrong with some information being given to help out in the general understanding of various movements. Where I draw the line is when those that have never ridden or experienced something passing out information like aspirin simply because they read someone else's post or were good at "google".

Hmm, if I knew for sure who had actual experience and who did not, this might be easy. But, unfortunately, I have to base my opinions of people on what I see here- are they kind? knowledgable? Thorough? Well spoken?

Do they choose to help others or are they self-serving? Does their advice seek to promote dressage and help people ride better, or are their posts aimed at furthering their own goals?

And finally, does their advice fit with what I've experienced? Does it feel right?

Because honestly, no matter where they got it... google or their 30 years of teaching... good advice is good advice!

I think reading the "steadying your leg" post is a good example of a post that garnered some great discussion and advice. That's what this board is all about!

[slc2]

i feel very, very differently about it.

The bb's are conversations, not training. No one can really train a horse or rider, from a bb question, not even the best trainer in the world. All anyone can do is talk about what they know, and what the wording of the post makes them think of - fundamentals, principles, fixes they've used.

The 'right answer' is almost as likely to come from an inexperienced person as an experienced one, because you're never really sure what the problem is, or how the OP is perceiving it.

The point is to have a discussion, and for those discussing to learn something. What is said is totally dependent on how the original post is worded, and that depends on how the OP sees the problem, and that is often a part of the problem. It might be helpful, or it might not. bb advice is worth what one pays for it - nothing.

The popularity of the answers is much more dependent on how they are worded and how posters view the person writing, rather than the correctness of the answer, mostly because no one knows if the answer is correct, and that's how most people judge an answer anyway.

The only real answer to a riding problem is - get help from a dressage trainer or instructor, who can stand there and look and see what the problem is, how the horse reacts to the advice, and how the horse and rider change over time.

All the discussions can really examine is principles, fundamentals - the training advice cannot be truly evaluated without a trainer there.

On the other hand, a person can learn alot from getting feedback on their answers - some of what they can learn is good, some not at all helpful.

Why do people ask for help from unknown people who can't see the horse and rider except thru a picture? Hard to say, but often they either don't have help or they don't like the help they're getting - don't have any faith in it, etc.

[~Freedom~]

I think reading the "steadying your leg" post is a good example of a post that garnered some great discussion and advice. That's what this board is all about!

YUP and most excellent advice from dwblvr on the top of page 2 post 21

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=3248938&postcount=21

[~Freedom~]

Why do people ask for help from unknown people who can't see the horse and rider except thru a picture? Hard to say, but often they either don't have help or they don't like the help they're getting - don't have any faith in it, etc.

The problem is, are they getting better or worse advice. The eye on the ground will always be better unless they have a totally incompetent trainer.

[Hazelnut]

Why do people ask for help from unknown people who can't see the horse and rider except thru a picture? Hard to say, but often they either don't have help or they don't like the help they're getting - don't have any faith in it, etc.[/quote]

Because its fun, its free, and what the heck!

I like to look at pictures and think about what I would reccommend for horse and rider. I rarely share my reccommendations because of my limited experiences. But I like to read most of the thoughtful responses. There are often AA's who share their experience which give a different (and probably more narrow, but not always) but valuable perspective on a problem.

I don't put a photo out there for critique, cause truthfully...I'm not willing to take the harsh with the thoughtful.

There is generally good advice and good alternative opinions on this board until some poster or another comes in with a very black and white view or a personal agenda which changes the direction of the thread.

How a person frames their responses on a BB would influence whether I would seek them out in the "real world".

[meupatdoes]

I want someone who has brought both horses and riders along to the higher levels of the discipline and whose horses and clients are able to play with the Big Kids.

Honestly, boarding a horse with and taking a lesson from a wannabe costs almost as much as riding with a proven, successful trainer so I'd rather dig a little deeper or drive a little further to spend my time with someone who's qualified.

[ToN Farm]

No, how you write on a bb, who likes your posts or how much the 'girl clique' fawns on you here is no judge of your training skill, it is only a judge of how popularly you can write. The two are inversely related. Toss in a few words like 'harmony', 'gently' and talk about chiropractic and herbs, blame the problem on teeth, a saddle or needing a different bit, talk about being 'classical', your post will be 'popular' here, because that's the kind of thing that appeals to alot of people.
Absolutely true.
Many horse trainers would never post on an internet bb, and if they did, you probably wouldn't like it, cause they spend more time riding than learning how to make appealing sounding posts on an internet bb.I'd change the word 'many' to 'most'.
It is no secret that some trainers come here and post with the hopes of attracting students. That's inevitable on the internet. And all that's required to be popular and appealing on an internet bb is the ability to write in an appealing way.True again. Good trainers don't need to advertise. They are booked solid.

[Ambrey]

YUP and most excellent advice from dwblvr on the top of page 2 post 21

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=3248938&postcount=21

Lots of great posts and great advice from a lot of people, including her. She had said she HAS a trainer, I'm sure she understands that these aren't professional opinions, but she heard the pros and cons of shortening stirrups, of riding without stirrups, how strength and balance affect leg position, and a little bit of encouragement along the way.

THAT's what discussion does. It is not your trainer, walking beside you, moving your leg, telling you "this is how it should feel," giving you constant instant feedback. One person has one person's experience. This board has many people's experience, but in a less intense form than the 1:1 interaction would give you.

I really appreciated the thread also, because I have done the re-rider thing once before, only in hunt seat. So, it was drilled into me that riding without stirrups was the way to a good seat and a strong leg. Hearing about how that attitude can be harmful in dressage, and lead to problems, was good.

Is the advice better or worse than that of a trainer? Both! There are things my trainer might not think to look for because his focus is a bit different. There are things my trainer would slap me silly (figuratively, of course) if I even tried. I am a grown up, I can tell the difference. Sometimes I might even decide to try that advice my trainer would disagree with- usually proving to myself that he really does know my horse better than I do ;)

I generally don't see those whose posts are the most informative and helpful complaining that others are disagreeing with them. They welcome disagreement and discussion and alternative viewpoints.